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The Most Valuable Position for the Seahawks

I was stopping by Football Outsiders as I often do and came upon this link to Robert Weintraub's story about the most valuable positions in the NFL. The problem here is that it's too absolutist. The most valuable position on one team can be considerably less valuable on another. With so many different strategies at play, how can one assume that a single standard can be given for the value of all positions in all schemes?

It's a fun idea to work with, though. I thought I would try my hand at defining the most valuable positions for Seattle in both Mike Holmgren's offense and John Marshall's defense.

Mike Holmgren's Offense

1. Left Tackle

Under Holmgren's offense, and in fact most Walsh derived offenses, the passing game seeks to hack up defenses with lots of short patterns. One of the results of this style of play is that additional blockers are rarely kept behind. Therefore the front five must do the heavy lifting on pass protection. Further, Holmgren's system favors a power rushing game that requires a tackle that can both protect the passer and be a force run blocking, especially in the second level. Walter Jones is the foremost player Seattle can not afford to lose.

2. Quarterback

This is sort of self explanatory. One of the biggest reasons quarterback's are so valuable is not just that they are the engine of an offense but that they are incredibly scarce. I submit that they're more, perhaps even double, #1 or Ace type pitchers in the MLB than even competent quarterbacks in the NFL.

3. Left Guard

Same basic responsibilities as the left tackle, but with more emphasis on the run game and far less scarcity.

4. Right Tackle

Again, this falls back to the need for the front five to be able to handle blocking duties with almost no additional help.

5. Running Back

A prototypical rushing back in a Walsh style offense should be able to convert first downs and touchdowns, get big gains, occasionally pass block and receive out of the backfield. People underestimate how hamstrung Alexander's inadequacies in the receiving game have left Holmgren's preferred playbook.

6. Center

Line calling, combo blocking, the center is crucial to both the passing attack and the running game. The value here is held down only because quality centers are relatively plentiful.

7. Tight End

The tight end must be able to block, run solid routes but most crucially, stretch the seam. His work downfield and ability to threaten safeties on the deep post allow for Holmgren's bevy of underneath routes to work.

8. Full Back

Important and scarce because in this offense they must be able to lead block on the power rushing game and receive out of the backfield.

9. Wide Receiver #1

In reality, the Walsh is designed to allow for undersized, quick and disciplined receivers who have little value in a downfield passing attack to be valuable. It is, in a sense, a deemphasis of the position.

10. Right Guard

The least demanding of the line spots, still must be able in pass pro.

11. Wide Receiver #2, etc

Another position that is deemphasized. Players who would not be valuable in most offenses can succeed.

John Marhsall's Defense

1a. Left Defensive Tackle

This is Rocky Bernard, the unheralded linchpin of Seattle's pass rush. Few offenses expect their defensive lineman to be able to penetrate, collapse and/or sack the way Marshall's defense does. Without a healthy Bernard the Hawks' pass rush collapsed last season and with it their defense.

1b. Right Defensive Tackle

The run stopper. What Bernard does for the pass rush, Marcus Tubbs did for the run defense. This position must have two abilities rarely found in combination for a tackle: the ability to occupy blockers and the ability to shoot gaps. Best filled by the near-nonexistent true three technique defensive tackle.

3. Right Defensive End

Must not only create pass rush but contain the outside rushing game. Has a slight edge on the left defensive end because the competition on the right is generally stiffer (facing the offenses left tackle) and because they rush from the QB's blind side.

4. Left Defensive End

See RDE.

5. Middle Linebacker

The MLB is less important than the pass rush, but hugely valuable nonetheless. That doesn't mean that Lofa Tatupu is less important to the current Hawks than Darryl Tapp, just that the position itself is less crucial. The MLB has three primary responsibilities, and finding one who can do all three can be dicey. The first is line calls, you'll see Tatupu call for stunts or tap someone on the hip to have them move left or right--this is all in an effort to create the proper spacing necessary to clog rush lanes or create pass rush. The second is run support, that's true of every defense. The final is to man the deep middle zone. This is one more way that Marshall's defensive philosophy mirrors the Tampa 2.

6. Free Safety

Marshall employs a lot of zones, the upside is that with a proper pass rush turnovers are forced, the downside is that when the pass rush fails receivers are prone to break free down the field. The free safety must be able to contain the deep passing game.

7. Strong Side Linebacker

The primary pass rusher in the linebacking corps.

8. #1 Cornerback

Marcus Trufant is expected to work from an island quite a bit, his man coverage allows Seattle to deploy zone coverage with their other DBs and LBs.

9. Strong Safety

Used both in the mid-deep zone and in run support. The safety must be able to account for the not infrequent possibility that a running back will break into the second level (thanks to our undersized front 7) and be able to fill rushing lanes and make open field tackles.

10. Weak Side linebacker

Run support, pass rush--Not a demanding position and one that helps players with clear weaknesses like Leroy Hill be valuable.

11. #2 Cornerback

Some zone, some man, deemphasized because the emphasis on pass rush.

I'm interested in everyone's opinions.

0 recs | Comment 30 comments

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Comments

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I'm surprised to see
FB so far down the list on offense considering how important Mack is to our rushing game.

Anyway, this is my first season following the site, and it's been amazing so far.

by sammy on Sep 12, 2007 5:11 PM PDT   0 recs

OT: stevens challenge
i lost this weekend. 0-1
Aaron Walker kicks ass.

by stlcardinalsfang on Sep 12, 2007 5:22 PM PDT   0 recs

Good point you make
in passing re: Lofa and Tapp. While the positions themselves have a certain heirarchy of value, a standout player can distort how we see that by essentially inflating his own position's value.

As to sammy's comment re: Mack -- my thought reading this was that John had the FB ranked comparatively higher than the NFL pay scale does, so he is in fact accounting for our fullback's above-average value.

"It's fun and difficult to swim in stormy river with an exotic apparatus, as inflatable ladies slip out of hands."

by Billy Everyteen on Sep 12, 2007 6:19 PM PDT   0 recs

I can't see how any position including left tackle
can be more important than QB. If Wallace becomes our QB we're a .500 team. If Walter should go down we would be affected greatly for sure, but his replacement (Locklear?) wouldn't be a drop off to the degree of Hass to Wallace would be. My 2 cents.

by Harrison on Sep 12, 2007 8:51 PM PDT   0 recs

Thats because Locklear is a potential
pro bowler

Just look a seattlesucks and how he feels about losing Orlando Pace for the season.

V. 1.0, mutherf***er, know what I'm sayin'?

by Scruffy Lefty on Sep 12, 2007 9:00 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

That isn't the point of the post
It wasn't saying Hasselbeck going down would hurt less than Jones (which is arguable, actually) but that in Hargrove's offensive scheme having a good LT is more important than having a good QB.  The whole offensive scheme would allow for a worse QB to succeed more easily than for a worse LT to succeed.  

Its like in baseball if you are playing a ground-ball hitting team.  Sure, Ichiro is great out there in center but having good infielders is more important.  

Chris

by CKremer on Sep 13, 2007 3:03 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Hargrove's offensive scheme? Is that the West
Coast offense he runs?

I get the argument about the importance of l. Tackle in a West Coast scheme, yet I still believe the drop off is greater if we were to lose Hass. Think this over and think you'll come to agree.

by Harrison on Sep 13, 2007 1:29 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I think the argument has to be framed thusly
And I'm generalizing a little bit here, I think most would agree that Jones is better than Hasselbeck compared to the league average at their respective positions, but would Seattle suffer more from the drop-off from Walter Jones to a league average left tackle (say a Luke Petitgout) or from a drop-off from Matt Hasselbeck to a league average quarterback (say a Jon Kitna)? I would say that Seattle would suffer more from the former.

As Aaron Schatz pointed out regarding the Rams losing Orlando Pace.

In case you don't have your PFP 07 handy, I'll remind you of what happened when Pace was injured halfway through 2006. Marc Bulger in the first half of 2006: 6.8 net yards per pass, 41.8% DVOA, one interception. Marc Bulger in the second half of 2006: 5.6 net yards per pass, 13.7% DVOA, seven interceptions.

Left tackles influence every aspect of a team's offensive performance. Without Jones we wouldn't even think of Beck as good as he is. Give the scarcity of the position, the reliance Holmgren's offense has on that position, and the effect it would have on every player in the Holmgren offense if that position were downgraded, I think that left tackle is the more valuable position.

by John Morgan on Sep 13, 2007 2:47 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Agreed, but our backup isn't Kitna (which
after week one wouldn't appear to be a great drop off) but to Wallace. My argument is specific to the Hawks current roster.

I think an example of a QB being not necessarily being of primary import would be the Niners of the eighties and early nineties. Montana goes down, in comes Young, Young goes down, in comes Bono. All three were successful when plugged in as starters. Granted Montana and Young were special, but Bono wasn't yet he ran the offense effectively and they won.

by Harrison on Sep 13, 2007 4:13 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Your missing the point
Its based of the offensive philosophy not the personel
V. 1.0, mutherf***er, know what I'm sayin'?

by Scruffy Lefty on Sep 13, 2007 4:31 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I refer you to the title of the post: The most
valuable position for the SEAHAWKS.

by Harrison on Sep 14, 2007 11:17 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

And I refer you to the 2 subtitles
Mike Holmgren's Offense

John Marshall's Defense

Its based off there philosophies

V. 1.0, mutherf***er, know what I'm sayin'?

by Scruffy Lefty on Sep 14, 2007 12:25 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

We have to much time on our hands.
Anyway, I see this as an excercise in semantics. I see that there are two ways the post can be read; granted John's intent was for the article to be interpreted as you say based on Holmgren's offensive philosophy and Marshalls's defensive philosophy.

by Harrison on Sep 14, 2007 1:57 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Kinda a Seahawks blog.
If ya know what I mean.  
Anyone wanna play WoW?

by Christian on Sep 14, 2007 2:19 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Ace pitchers and competent QBs
Ace Pitchers in Baseball:

Beckett
Kazmir (maybe)
Sabathia
Santana
Verlander (maybe)
Haren (maybe)
Lackey
Webb
Peavy
Zambrano
Oswalt
Halliday
Young (maybe)
Bedard

What is competent?  80 Qb rating or above?  can move ball consistency without being a glaring liability?  elusiveness?

Hasselbeck
Bulger
Smith (could be)
Leinart?
Rivers
Cutler?
Manning
Brady
Schaub?
Palmer
Kitna? (he can achieve a QB rating in the 80s...)
Pennington
Young
Brees
Mcnabb
Romo
Delhomme? probably not, but maybe.
Isn't Favre still competent?

I'll stop here... I think ace pitchers and good Qbs are about the same, depending on standards for categorizing.

by David on Sep 13, 2007 11:35 AM PDT   0 recs

you left chris carpenter off the list
i know he's hurt but....
Aaron Walker kicks ass.

by stlcardinalsfang on Sep 13, 2007 7:21 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Pitchers
Sheets
Wang
Matsuzaka
Schilling
Smoltz
Hudson
Carpenter (healthy)
Escobar
Shields
Cain
Harang
Hamels
Francis
Buehrle

Remove Smith and Schaub (who hasn't proved anything yet) and I'm mostly in agreement. I personally think Delhomme sucks, but I wouldn't say he's certifiably incompetent. Eli Manning is competent if unspectacular. So what's our final ratio: 27/17? Next season we might be able to add Hernandez, Carmona, Gallardo, Lincecum, Gorzelanny and Billingsley.

I think ace pitchers are, in general, more abundant than league average or better quarterbacks.

by John Morgan on Sep 13, 2007 2:34 PM PDT   0 recs

You have a loose definition of ace.
I think most baseball people would agree that at any given time, there are roughly 15 aces in the league.

by sammy on Sep 13, 2007 3:04 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

problems
matsuzaka, harang, wang, and smoltz are not aces.
Aaron Walker kicks ass.

by stlcardinalsfang on Sep 13, 2007 7:22 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Harang should of won the cy young
last year

He is a ace

V. 1.0, mutherf***er, know what I'm sayin'?

by Scruffy Lefty on Sep 13, 2007 10:54 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Zuh?
Pitcher A: 16-11 rec, 234.2 IP, 56 BB, 216 K, 3.76 ERA, 3.64 FIP, 3.89 xFIP, 128 ERA+

Pitcher B: 16-8 rec, 235 IP, 50 BB, 178 K, 3.10 ERA, 3.20 FIP, 3.13 xFIP, 154 ERA+

Except strikeouts, Pitcher B bests Pitcher A in EVERY category. Pitcher A is Aaron Harang. Pitcher B is the 2006 NL Cy Young Winner Brandon Webb.

I reject your reality and substitute my own!

by Phildopip on Sep 14, 2007 7:49 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Ya but Brandon Webb doesn't pitch in Cin
I'm pretty sure that park adjusted there almost the same pitcher. (I have no idea how park adjusted stats work)

Just Harang K's more guys

V. 1.0, mutherf***er, know what I'm sayin'?

by Scruffy Lefty on Sep 14, 2007 10:54 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

ERA+ is park adjusted
I reject your reality and substitute my own!

by Phildopip on Sep 14, 2007 11:05 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

So I'm guessing higher is better
But what does that number mean?
V. 1.0, mutherf***er, know what I'm sayin'?

by Scruffy Lefty on Sep 14, 2007 11:12 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It's how much (or below) average a pitcher's
ERA is. It's a crude approximation of how effective a pitcher is against the league average (ERA+ of 100). There is a park factor included in this stat, but if you want a concrete example of how it works (sans park factor) look at these example:

2007 Felix Hernandez ERA: 4.17
2007 AL ERA: 4.30

4.30 / 4.17 = 1.03 = 103 ERA+

2007 JJ Putz ERA: 1.41
2007 AL ERA: 4.30

4.30 / 1.41 = 3.05 = 305 ERA+

Basically, you can read it as saying "Felix Heranandez's ERA is 3% better than league average" and "JJ Putz's ERA is 305% better than league average".

Conversely:

2007 Horacio Ramirez ERA: 6.80
2007 AL ERA: 4.30

4.30 / 6.80 = .63 = 63 ERA+

I reject your reality and substitute my own!

by Phildopip on Sep 14, 2007 11:21 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Wow
Someone has finally made me understand that

Cool Thx

Ok statement retracted. But Harang is still an ace

V. 1.0, mutherf***er, know what I'm sayin'?

by Scruffy Lefty on Sep 14, 2007 12:23 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Oh, and it works the same as OPS+
if you've worked with that statistic before.
I reject your reality and substitute my own!

by Phildopip on Sep 14, 2007 11:22 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Umm
maybe showing a bias here but the Ace of Boston?  Is Beckett.

I think the term ace gets tossed around too frequently.  

Aces:

Halladay
Wang
Beckett
Bedard
Lackey
Sabathia
Santana
Webb
Peavy
Smoltz
Hamels
Oswalt
Sheets
Carpenter
Z
Harang

Anyone wanna play WoW?

by Christian on Sep 14, 2007 11:07 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Smoltz is still at the top of his game
I forgot Smoltz.  He is an ace, even at 40.  There is no way the numbers don't bare that out. I also forgot about Hamels, he's an ace.  

Elite qb's and ace pitchers are extremely rare.  I think a better statement is that there are a lot more "good" pitchers than "competent" qbs.

by David on Sep 13, 2007 11:56 PM PDT   0 recs

I think this has devolved into semantics
To me Ace is slang for #1--the ace representing the #1 on playing cards. I think of an Ace pitcher as a pitcher that could be the best pitcher on most MLB staffs. Some teams have multiple Aces, like Boston, others have no ace, like the Kansas City. To me, the scarcity of true top line pitching talent is less than even above average quarterback talent. That's all I was trying to say.

by John Morgan on Sep 14, 2007 2:42 PM PDT   0 recs

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