Quick Cap: Giants 44 - Seahawks 6
If you're a Giants fan, save it. There's nothing anyone can say that'll make this burn more or be more discouraging.
If it could, today would have counted as two losses. But it can't, and though today offers nothing but blight and hopelessness, it's one loss and the quicker it's forgotten the better for everyone.
I don't know what else to say. I feel sick. Figuratively, literally, sick, like glass shards in my blood and fire in my stomach.
I'll say this, Seattle needs wholesale changes in its secondary. Seneca Wallace for free safety? Seneca Wallace for defensive coordinator?
Seattle needs two wins to regain .500. It needs 10 to feel confident it will win the division. Nine in the next 13. Hard, hard as hell and maybe unlikely? Damn right. A little drama in October; It could be worse.
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Let's look for positives.
The O-Line seemed to play well. It seemed like we were much better at picking up the blitz. Hass looked good.
by EA on Oct 5, 2008 1:04 PM PDT 0 recs
Let's say Seattle is not a Super Bowl caliber team.
Does that ruin the season?
I think pessimism is about the easiest thing possible. It never fails. You’re either right or no one cares. This team looked like a championship contender from everything I knew and saw. The major failing from 2007, the rushing attack, has, in fact, dramatically improved. I don’t know what has happened to Seattle’s secondary. Of all the pessimistic projections, I didn’t see one that centered on Seattle’s secondary. But right now, Seattle’s secondary has played as bad as any in the NFL. It’s not just Russell. And I don’t know how to fix it.
by John Morgan on Oct 5, 2008 1:14 PM PDT 0 recs
On a personal level, ...
I’d be satisfied with a division championship and at least one playoff victory.
Anything less than that, however, would register as a disappointment in my book. That’s particularly the case here, too, since this is expected to be Mike Holmgren’s final season as head coach in Seattle. I, all things considered, certainly don’t want him to go out with a whimper.
Of course, everyone has different level of wants and desires for the Seahawks — no matter their objective expectations at this point — thus, I can only speak on my own behalf. Yet, suffice it to say, it’s doubtful that too many fans are pleased with the team’s overall performance thus far this season.
by AK1984 on
Oct 5, 2008 1:55 PM PDT
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I just wonder if some fans need to think their team will win the Super Bowl to enjoy football.
Because, I got to say, no matter how good Ruskell is, you’re going to be very disappointed someday.
by John Morgan on
Oct 5, 2008 1:58 PM PDT
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I hate to say I told you so..
But you’re analysis of Jacobs couldn’t have been more wrong. You wrongly assumed that somehow we were going to control the line of scrimmage, and that we would be able to gang tackle Jacobs down.
There is more to this than just revamping the secondary. If you weren’t noticing the front 7 we’re being thrown around like rag dolls, and NY’s guards were creating massive holes for Jacobs to run through. It was easy to set up play action and get the secondary to bite. There was just no way they had any chance with that kind of running game. I do think both corners played poor technique though when they were challenged, so in that sense they did meet expectations as well.
What it comes down to IMO is coaching. Poor scheme, inspiration, and play calling. We should have brought more blitzes. It seemed like since we got burned on a few, Marshall stopped calling them. That was the only way to throw off Manning, and the few times he made poor throws were when we did blitz and get to him.
Unfortunately, there won’t be any firing of Marshall until after the season ends when Mora takes over. Holmgren is too loyal. He’s going to live or die by Marshall. It’s ironic that in Holmgren’s last hurrah with the Hawks, that after five years of making the playoffs, they likely won’t make it this year.
The one thing I am very hopeful of next year is that we can bring in a more creative WCO mind, to open things up. Zorn would have been ideal (see the Antwan Randle-El TD toss today), but anything’s better than vanilla Haskell. As for the defensive coordinator, I’m excited to see who Mora bring in next year. It’s time for new blood, and a new scheme, and a better play caller.
by kmedic on Oct 5, 2008 1:16 PM PDT 0 recs
I think we have major personnel issues on defense on the road.
Our d-line relies on getting a quick burst and beating the O-Line instead of overpowering them. They get that extra fraction of a second at home but on the road it doesn’t work as well. On the road against a good O-Line like the Giants the D-Line is very ineffective.
by EA on
Oct 5, 2008 1:21 PM PDT
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John's analysis of Jacobs wasn't wrong
but yes, we were wrong to assume that we’d be able to prevent the gaping holes that the highlights showed and that we saw all game long.
by Nate Dogg on
Oct 5, 2008 3:06 PM PDT
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It wasn’t Jacobs so much that whooped us as the Giants’ offensive line. Several times he had huge holes.
by Bloof on
Oct 6, 2008 12:06 PM PDT
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mercy
KHON-2 in Honolulu spared me the misery of having to watch the fourth quarter as they went to Redskins/Eagles to finish. To me, this was like the game against the Steelers last year or even the playoff game in Green Bay, games during which I reach a point of “it’s not happening today,” and while I’d like to be proven wrong, it just gets way, way worse. At that point, I just wish they could walk off the field so no one would get hurt.
I guess one thing that amazed me about the Giants is that they didn’t even need Ahmad Bradshaw that much. I’ve seen him do some crazy stuff in soem of the Giants’ other games.
Sports and Bremertonians. Because we can.
by wackomann on Oct 5, 2008 1:34 PM PDT 0 recs
It is not over yet!
I’ve taken three shots at writing this post and had to erase them all. There is simply too much talent on this team to give up though. I have to trust the coaches and the players themselves to make the necessary adjustments to come out next week like it is the first game of the season with everything to play for.
Let’s not forget we were playing on the East coast, with our best WRs just coming off injury, against a great team that defines our nemesis: bruising O and D lines with a giant HB plowing into our undersized but quick defense.
Let it go. For your own sanity’s sake, let it go. With a week more practice between Matt and the WRs, a rejuvinated running game, and an emerging TE, our offense will be on the field longer and give the defense a chance help us win games.
by Kekoa16 on Oct 5, 2008 1:47 PM PDT 0 recs
sorry
that there were some unpleasantries before the game. i think it’s just tough for things to finally come together (2007 postseason) and then have everybody dismiss it as a fluke. not that John’s post did that, but anything negative about the Giants seems to be taken that way. you’ll have to excuse Giants’ fans like me for being defensive. Ed does a great job at BBV and i don’t think he thought posting some of the stuff that was posted here on the Giants’ site was going to spawn any trolling.
this reminded me a lot of the ass-kicking Seattle handed NY in ‘06, just without the window-dressing touchdowns late. the good thing is it’s only one loss and if they get things ironed out, winning the NFC West certainly isn’t out of the question.
good luck the rest of the season. i’m also a big ND fan and i hope Carlson makes something of himself. he was really the lone bright spot in an otherwise miserable ’07 season.
by SBakerTheTouchdownMaker on Oct 5, 2008 2:04 PM PDT 0 recs
Thanks and good luck for the rest of the season.
The thing that amazed me was Eli: Cool in the pocket and making great progressions. Seahawks fans can talk about giving him time, but he escaped pressure and found receivers to check down to. Eli becoming a great quarterback, not saying he’s there, but if he is, that’s something that changes the very nature of the Giants.
by John Morgan on
Oct 5, 2008 2:09 PM PDT
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The inevitable Russell reference.
Russell was absolutely awful. Wilson got burned so many times in which Russell was nowhere in the frame, with Wilson isolated center field.I recall another massive Jacobs runs where, to avoid needing to hit jacobs head on, Russell let him get by him and then tackled him from behind 20 yards later. Most embarrassing thing I have seen a Seahawk do. Obviously a lot of players had to suck to lose this badly but there is a dark undertone to having Russell on the field sucking. That is, the secondary is Mora’s unit, heck, Russell even looks like Mora. It is his responsibility to bench the guy. I don’t give the guy that much credit for the secondary improving last year because we completely broke the bank for Deon Grant and Trufant was already an excellent if unappreciated corner. I could be wrong but it looked like we were living in a very soft zone every down. Further, we did not get much pressure with our front four at all. Manning had time again and again and the running lanes were massive.
This is despite the fact that we have exactly the personnel we want out there on D. This is just a bad defensive philosophy that Ruskell should take the fall for. We have seen what I count as our fourth straight ‘successful’ year. Successful beating down crappy teams at home and nothing else. Our last win against a team that was better than .500 for that same season was @Denver 2006. Denver was 9-7 that year and it was Jay Cutler’s first ever start, in which he exhibited considerable stage fright. That was the only such win that year and guess what? In the ‘magical’ 2005 we didn’t beat a single better than .500 team on the road. 2004? Nope. 2003? Sorry. No wins against better than .500 teams on the road. This is all including post-season. Think about it. Can you think of one road win that was at all impressive over the last FIVE seasons?…. Still thinking? I have been as upset as any other Seahawks fan over the years when we were called a weak team that only shined because of a weak division. I have to admit it now. The last three ‘good years’ were founded upon the suckiness of the NFC West. We have won only one road game against a better than .500 team in the last 5+ seasons and it was a 9-7 team that we beat by 3 points WITH a Daryl Tapp interception return TD and Cutler completely pissing his pants all game. In other words, a lucky gimme.
I still think this team is very talented. We need to install a culture of accountability though Guys need to be benched or played based on performance, not based on the amount of organizational investment in them. Ditto the coaching staff. A crap year like this is probably ultimately a good thing because it would be suicide for our future to continue under the false pretenses that we are a Superbowl caliber team. Look at the data. Look at all of our road games against decent teams and you will see an alarming reality. If you abstract away all the divisional beatdowns and the fact we have lucked into easy scheduling outside the division, you will see that we have been awful against good teams on the road. Why are we good at home? I don’t know. I suppose that extra split second is the difference between a hit or hurry and absolutely nothing on every rush. Please don’t read my post as just frustrated hate-mongering. I love this team, I noticed the alarming road numbers earlier this week (and posted it) and decided this game was our big opportunity to right that trend. Not only did we not do that but we corroborated the now crazy to deny notion that we just aren’t even an average team on the road. Cases in point: 2008: BUF, NYG 2007: CLE, PIT, GB 2006, 2005, 2004, blah.
The disgusting thing is that we still have a very good chance of making the playoffs because it is becoming clearer and clearer that our division IS THAT BAD as well. That is to be excited, but perhaps feared also because it will delay the wholesale restructuring we need.
by michaelfox99 on Oct 5, 2008 2:13 PM PDT 0 recs
INCORRECT
“Our last win against a team that was better than .500 for that same season was @Denver 2006.”
very very incorrect.
by cro-mag! on
Oct 5, 2008 3:15 PM PDT
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I said on the road, wheres your counterexample?
by michaelfox99 on
Oct 5, 2008 3:21 PM PDT
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I know that's what you meant, but you forgot to put that in the sentence.
So both of you guys are right, in a sense ;)
by redwolf75 on
Oct 5, 2008 3:45 PM PDT
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The Pale Scot
Save it?? Uh… we did, for Sunday.
“I’m confident New York’s defense, that has many a Seahawks fan quivering in their boots, is soon to show a softer side.” yea, we gotta find a way to stop those field goals.
Good job of gang tackling 20 yrds past the LOS, Fortunately Jacobs sucks cutting into the hole.
That said, playing at 10am body time could be a factor, but there’s this stuff called coffee, perhaps you’ve heard of it?
But the Gulls do have a better front 7 than Cinci or the Rams;
So thank you for providing us with the opportunity to practice our outdated, ’old school" smash mouth style running game against them as we prepare for the ’Skins, the ’boys, and the Iggles down the road.
Go make all of us feel better by beating up on the Fudgebackers, the goal of universal harmony is always closer when Frisco and Dallas have losing records. We’ll try to hold up our end.
by The Pale Scot on Oct 5, 2008 2:18 PM PDT 0 recs
Classy.
You know you didn’t actually accomplish anything right? Weird how much personal pride people take in their sports teams.
by John Morgan on
Oct 5, 2008 2:21 PM PDT
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My favorite part is that he put his screen name in the subject line.
by John Morgan on
Oct 5, 2008 2:22 PM PDT
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The Pale Scot?
I don’t remember ever seeing this guy on Big Blue View. Whoever he is, his comments are not those of the vast majority of our guys. Totally classless on his part.
by giant fan since 57 on
Oct 6, 2008 3:28 AM PDT
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For some people
the urge to assert supremacy over other people during gym lasts far after high school.
by BrianL on
Oct 5, 2008 2:22 PM PDT
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It does have an "O'Doyle Rules!" feel.
I’m not killing this post just because I think people need a chance to show that they’re aholes.
by John Morgan on
Oct 5, 2008 2:28 PM PDT
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You're allowing people to show they're assholes and humiliate themselves in the open?
Mr. Morgan, you are a wise chap.
by BrianL on
Oct 5, 2008 2:30 PM PDT
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Why, however, hate on the 49ers?
It’s not like there’s a natural rivaly between the Bay Area and the Garden State, unless you go way back to the late-‘80s/early-’90s and whatnot.
by AK1984 on
Oct 5, 2008 3:19 PM PDT
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Thank God I had to work
So what exactly went wrong? Was it Tru? Jennings or was it everyone? It can’t be all Russell’s fault.
by MFAN on Oct 5, 2008 2:31 PM PDT 0 recs
Everyone.
Except maybe Bane and Kerney, but everyone else. Just a manhandling.
by John Morgan on
Oct 5, 2008 2:32 PM PDT
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Thread closed.
Let’s not up the ante on the trolls.
by John Morgan on
Oct 5, 2008 2:54 PM PDT
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I don't understand it.
Right from the start, the Giants were completely having their way with our defensive line. I haven’t seen us pushed around like that in a long time (well, January).
Another thing I don’t get… if Russell is so bad (and he looks bad to me too), why in God’s name have we not even TRIED to replace him?
by djafrot on Oct 5, 2008 2:36 PM PDT 0 recs
They don't ask Russell to do much, which might be why they haven't replaced
I’m sure they will try and replace him this off-season.
by MFAN on
Oct 5, 2008 2:38 PM PDT
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Not much.
The offense played ok while it could. The o-line won for most of the game, but New York’s offense was just unrelenting.
by John Morgan on
Oct 5, 2008 2:49 PM PDT
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Looked like we had pretty good pass protection, except
for Lock when Hass got hurt.
The sack Walter gave up appeared to be Seneca’s fault for going too deep.
by redwolf75 on
Oct 5, 2008 3:47 PM PDT
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Watching the Bengals hold their own against Dallas.
Should we consider that maybe New York is really, really good? I’ve never seen the Eli Manning that took the field today.
by John Morgan on Oct 5, 2008 3:30 PM PDT 0 recs
Their offensive line is very, very good
I’m not sold on Eli yet.
by Nate Dogg on
Oct 5, 2008 3:55 PM PDT
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Normally
I like to say “good game” after I’ve posted on another teams blog, but that wasn’t and I’d sound disingenuous if I wrote it. That said, I’ll just remind you that the Giants got humiliated by the Vikings last year and had many of us doubting how good they were and wanting to get rid of our coach and QB, and they came back and won the Super Bowl. The ‘Hawks are a talented team who have had success the last few years, with a HOF coach and an easy division, so I won’t be surprised to see them in the playoff hunt at the end. Good luck the rest of the way
by cjmulrain on Oct 5, 2008 3:35 PM PDT 0 recs
Interesting,
Mr. Morgan, that you deleted my explanation that the sarcasm of my post was directed at your writing, not at hope and dreams of Gull fans. Your talent at revising history has commercial applications, I hear Pravda’s hiring.
by The Pale Scot on Oct 5, 2008 3:37 PM PDT 0 recs
I deleted it because of someone else's reaction.
You think you are impugning me, but you’re just proving that you are a jerk.
by John Morgan on
Oct 5, 2008 3:57 PM PDT
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Dude,
We were just talking sports, here on the east coast if my friend the Yankee nut goes off in July about how the Skanks are the team to beat, its likely even other Yank fans would be asking for some of what ever he was smoking, its called razing, and that was my intent. You were optimistic about your team and you wore it on your sleeve, if the Gulls had won I’d have been here remarking that your boys backed you up and inquiring for your opinion on lotto numbers. but if you want to lead the parade you gotta be ready to pay for the funeral, especially when writing for the Intertubes.
But true character disparagement was not my intent ( I haven’t mentioned your offshore banks accounts, have I?), if it was seen as such Mea Culpa again. see ya in the playoffs.
by The Pale Scot on
Oct 5, 2008 4:29 PM PDT
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I know you're east coast and I know the attitude.
I’m from New Hampshire and I get the in your face east coast thing. If the Giants had won close, I could get talking shit, but when you’re team just stomps the life out of another team the classy thing to do is be cool and enjoy the victory. Going over to the other team’s site and talking a bunch of shit just makes you look like a jerk. I mean, do you think anything you are going to say is going to hurt more than today’s loss?
by John Morgan on
Oct 5, 2008 5:45 PM PDT
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Dude,
I said “I am at fault” ;
But you were the one being dismissive of my team; I was just responding with what I thought was gentle sarcasm, i was wrong.
by The Pale Scot on
Oct 5, 2008 6:16 PM PDT
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Perhaps you should cease commenting here for a while.
Your team won, congrats.
by BrianL on
Oct 5, 2008 6:19 PM PDT
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Poor sports
Guys, this is my first post on the website, but I really enjoy the analysis and discussion. That being said, can we please cut this “stop posting here for a while” business? I understand that you’re trying to maintain a community of Seahawks fans, and understand it gets difficult when opposing fans comment on the board, but hey, thats sports. And don’t give me this line that we can’t handle shit talking. Do you know what we do to opposing fans at the home games? Jesus, these comments make it sound like we’re a bunch of waify, whinny fans. True, our sports scene has been shit for a long while and the Seahawks were the beacon of light in all of this. But man up, handle defeat with dignity. Handle razzing with dignity. If you don’t like what somebody posted, don’t respond. But please god, don’t respond to a post saying “you should stop commenting on this board for a while.” Where is the fun in that? Sports is more than the two teams going against eachother, it is about two factions of society competing. Geographically, it forces interactions between two parts of the country that normally would not have this forum to talk shit to eachother. Going into this game I thought we were going to win. My team could not back up any of the expectations that I had going into the game. It sucks when you are disappointed like that. But in the end you’ve got to learn to deal with it. Sorry for the heavy handed post. I’m looking forward to seeing what the Hawks will do to answer for this.
by quickhandsandfeet on
Oct 6, 2008 12:37 PM PDT
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It become a mess rather quickly.
It might seem harmless, but this isn’t a message board. When people start throwing bombs, it’s for the eyes of thousands of people. This isn’t the place for flame wars and that’s respected pretty much throughout the blog community. Blogs are becoming a big part of new media and while this one is very small, I expect people to contribute things to this blog (within reason) as if they were writing something for a newspaper.
by John Morgan on
Oct 6, 2008 1:46 PM PDT
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I understand
I don’t agree entirely, but I appreciate the response.
by quickhandsandfeet on
Oct 6, 2008 2:32 PM PDT
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I'm going to be optimistic
The six measly points don’t show it but I think the offense is close to coming to life. We had so many near misses that just killed our drives. It is like a potentially powerful engine that is turning over, sputtering, almost catching…. .then dying.
Hasselbeck and the receivers just aren’t fully synched up which is understandable given the unholy number of injuries. If this improves our passing game will be more than adequate to open up our potentially very good running game.
The Giants actually offered a tantalizing glimpse of what our offense could look like if it was firing on all cylinders. And we have better players overall.
Obviously we have make some changes defensively. We aren’t tackling well, we aren’t stopping the run or the pass. We aren’t getting to the QB with consistency and even when we do we seem to get killed by the deep ball. Our secondary was embarrassed be a pretty pedestrian group of receivers…..again! They are better than this.
I’m hopeful an improvement on the offensive side will help the D if for no other reason than by sustaining some drives and getting them off the field.
I think we can get much better because I can’t believe we can be any worse.
Give the Giants some credit too. They are playing as good as any team in the league.
Hopefully the epic bitchslapping they laid on us will be a wake up call.
"When I'm a evaluating a player the first three things I look at are: Character, character, and character."
-Charles Armstrong esq.
by Big Jared on Oct 5, 2008 4:20 PM PDT 0 recs
loose end
I’m not saying it would have closed a 38-point gap, but does anyone else think it was weird that John Carlson didn’t even have a ball thrown to him?
Sports and Bremertonians. Because we can.
by wackomann on Oct 5, 2008 4:40 PM PDT 0 recs
That was a little odd in my mind.
I can’t remember the last time a tight end wasn’t targeted in a game.
by BrianL on
Oct 5, 2008 4:47 PM PDT
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Yeah, if I remember correctly, neither was Boss targeted.
by redwolf75 on
Oct 5, 2008 4:54 PM PDT
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Boss has not been targeted all year.
JSWO - Josh Scobey World Order 4 Life!
by Christian on
Oct 5, 2008 4:57 PM PDT
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Matt looked for him a few times
but he was covered. It seemed like Engram mostly took over Carlson’s role.
by Nate Dogg on
Oct 5, 2008 4:55 PM PDT
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This is why I do not comment on the News Tribune Blog --
RE: Branch
Branch is historically a pansie who ALWAYS gets hurt EVERY year with sissie injuries. It doesn’t matter with him, it’s always something different. This is just more of the same.
My. God.
by redwolf75 on Oct 5, 2008 5:04 PM PDT 0 recs
All I will say is I hope this game doesn't lead to the same panic mode
that led the staff and Ruskell to jettisoning Plack.
I’m half-expecting something big to happen in terms of the coaching staff or the roster, I just hope Ruskell and Holmgren are evaluating things with a clear head.
by BrianL on Oct 5, 2008 6:30 PM PDT 0 recs
People talk about being an undersized defense...
And how that is an ‘outdated’ way of playing defense in today’s NFL. I disagree. I think it’s what you do with it that counts. The counter argument of being undersized is being quicker and faster. In the right scheme, with the correct play calling, an undersized speed defense can work just fine.
Another words, I think that the underachievement of this undersized defense points to the coaching staff. People on other boards are pointing fingers at Ruskell for his ‘antiquated’ drafting philosophy. I say you can’t make a final judgement until he brings in his defensive guy. He indirectly did that with the Mora hiring. If in two years, we’re still seeing pastings like today, then I will begin to wonder whether the whole undersized but quick theory is justified and I will point the finger at Ruskell. Both Tampa Bay under Monte Kiffin and the Colts under Tony Dungy (when Sanders is healthy) have seemed to do just fine. We should be able to as well. The rate limiting factor here is Mora and his staff. A change should be made tomorrow (though it won’t happen) at the D-coordinator position while it’s still early. There’s no where but up to go from here in my opinion. You could keep the same basic elements of the scheme, but with a new play caller.
Any thoughts?
by kmedic on Oct 5, 2008 7:19 PM PDT 0 recs
I agree with your concept that the talent is not performing to its potential
I don’t know if it’s coaching or what that causes it though.
It seems to me that “speed defenses” like Indy and Sea2 are more likely to get run all over occasionally by power teams like Pittsburgh and NY. It’s their foil, just like the WCO takes advantage of larger, slower defenses. I don’t have facts or stats to back it up but as a casual football observer that’s what I see.
by clamslayer on
Oct 5, 2008 7:37 PM PDT
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Speed defenses of course rely on getting pressure on the QB
One major thing difference I have noticed between this year and last is the lack of pressure we are getting on the QB. It seems like the QB is having all sorts of time to make decisions back there. Give NY credit. Their O-line is awesome. I’m not sure on our D-line’s best day we could get pressure on Eli. I just think with 2 weeks off we could have been more creative in the secondary with the looks Manning was getting. It seemed like he knew exactly what to expect when he saw our setups. We need new blood and new imagination at the d-coordiator position. This is getting ridiculous.
by kmedic on
Oct 5, 2008 7:48 PM PDT
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clock management and coaching...
Refresh me if my memory is incorrect, but I was drinking, actually on a bender, but this is what I saw… I might be wrong, but it seems like Holmgren has often made this same mistake…
So the hawks hadn’t stopped the giants once in 4 possessions…. julius jones is looking good, seems like we can move the ball on the ground.
We get 4th and 1 on around our own 38 yard line in the first half, down… what, like 17-3 or some such.
What do we do? we punt, give our D another chance to NOT stop them.
TMQ writes game over.
Seriously, we DON’T go for it on 4th and 1 there? Why not? Why is TJ Duckett getting paid? Why NOT go with Julius Jones?
But we’re not done yet… we’re on like the 13 yard line, with like 30 seconds in the half and a dead clock, with 1 time out.
Hass goes to the line, doesn’t like what he sees and calls time.
No more time outs. We get something that happens, clock stops with 7 left, we’re on like the 8 yard line…
What do we do down 24-3, having not made a stop all game, AND KICKING OFF TO START THE 2ND HALF? We kick a %#*^ing field goal on 1st down instead of taking a chance at scoring.
Clock mis-management taken to a whole new level, especially when YOU HAVEN’T STOPPED THEM ONCE!!!!
You really think I'll become a bronco fan if I live in Denver long enough? Why, when it is so much fun watching your team suck and mine rock!!!
by whiskey chainsaw on Oct 6, 2008 10:30 AM PDT 0 recs








