The Trend-Fast Model for Winning the Super Bowl
There is no one model for winning the NFL. If Seattle could draft "great offensive line" or "great defense", I would be all for it. Seattle can't. It can draft a great quarterback. That's one model for success that's persisted. Starting with Bart Starr and on through Peyton Manning (but probably not Eli), 27 Super Bowl winning quarterbacks are Hall of Fame inductees or future Hall of Fame inductees (Peyton Manning, Brett Favre and Tom Brady). Of the remaining 15, nine were taken in the first round. The final six are Ken Stabler, Jeff Hostetler, Joe Theisman, Mark Rypien, Brad Johnson and Kurt Warner. Warner may yet be inducted into the Hall of Fame. The 1970 Colts actually used a Hall of Fame inductee, Johnny Unitas, and a first round pick, Earl Morrall, to win Super Bowl V. The only Super Bowl winning quarterback not elected to at least one Pro Bowl is Doug Williams. Eli Manning has not yet played in a Pro Bowl, but will in 2009. Election to the Pro Bowl is not entirely merit based, but elected quarterbacks are at least above average. The worst starting quarterback for a Super Bowl winning team is probably Trent Dilfer. Dilfer was selected sixth overall in the 1994 draft.
It's the most trend-fast rule in sports: Great NFL teams have great NFL quarterbacks. Teams that wish to consistently compete and therefore have the best chance at an NFL title are teams with top talent at the most demanding, essential and rarefied position in the NFL. Seattle's rise to prominence matches Matt Hasselbeck's own emergence. Not Walter Jones. Seattle was 6-5 in the games Hasselbeck received the majority of snaps in 2002, Haselbeck's first great season. From that time on, Seattle won, and when Hasselbeck was at his best (2003 (5.7 ANY/A), 2005 6.6 (ANY/A), 2007 (5.9 ANY/A)) so was Seattle (33-15). Attaining Hasselbeck was the single greatest move of Mike Holmgren's career as a GM. Coach Holmgren ranks among the greatest developers of quarterback talent in the history of the NFL. The chance Seattle can duplicate that feat, is well...
If I ran a strict comparison, Super Bowl starter to Super Bowl starter, the number of first round + Hall of Fame quarterbacks would dwarf the number of first round + Hall of Fame left tackles. The mandatory top talent on the blind side trend started in the early eighties. Many think it's already outdated. The rise of zone blitzes means blitzes can come from any point on the line. A liability at any line position is exploitable. But for the sake of equity, let's compare starters at left tackle for every Super Bowl champion since 1981--Lawrence Taylor's rookie season.
HOF: Gary Zimmerman
1st: Jimbo Covert, Eric Moore, Jim Lachey, Harris Barton, Orlando Pace, Jonathan Ogden, Tarik Glenn
2nd: Bubba Paris, Bubba Paris, Bruce Wilkerson, Matt Light, Matt Light, Matt Light, Marvel Smith
3rd: Roman Oben
4th: Dan Audick, Steve Wallace
5th: David Diehl
8th: Brad Benson
11th: Bruce E. Davis
Undrafted: Joe Jacoby, Joe Jacoby, Mark Tuinei, Mark Tuinei, Mark Tuinei, Tony Jones
Twenty seven player seasons, but only eight combined first round picks and Hall of Fame inductees. Zimmerman was a first round pick and the two possible additions to the Hall of Fame, Pace and Ogden, are both first round picks. Pace and Ogden are considered among the best offensive tackles of their generation, but neither has played for consistently good teams or even consistently good offenses. The greatest offensive line of this era and maybe all time, the 90s Dallas Cowboys, featured an undrafted free agent at left tackle, Mark Tuinei. Tuinei was a very good offensive tackle but, arguably, the Cowboys worst starting offensive linemen. Their best offensive lineman was a left guard, Nate Newton.
Seattle needs talent on its offensive line. Above all, it needs a left guard. Assuming Seattle re-signs Ray Willis, it has starting talent at left and right tackle. As Mike Sando points out, Sean Locklear's recently signed five year, 32 million dollar contract features escalators for playing at least half his snaps at left tackle. That's not a coincidence, nor is it a coincidence that Locklear has seen regular snaps at left tackle during practice. Locklear isn't Walter Jones, but playing beside Nate Newton, he could be Mark Tuinei. Seattle needs talent on offensive line. It does not need a great left tackle. Not even should it want the greatest offensive line of all time.
The NFL is nothing if not trendy, and with each successful trend, fans across the country want their team to follow suit. Trends don't win championships, talent does. With their first pick in the 2009 draft, Seattle should take the best available talent. It's not certain that will be a quarterback, but quarterback is so disproportionately important to a team's success, and has been for 42 years, that an above average quarterback is better "talent" than all but the greatest offensive linemen. An above average quarterback is better talent than all but the greatest players at any other position, too. And teams that want win Super Bowls don't send Seneca Wallace to the show. That's not a trend, that's the history of the NFL.
Comments
Great Post.
We do need a future QB, and I really believe that we’ve got to take a stud early instead of a project in the middle rounds (David Greene). However, I would change my draft strategy completely if something were to happen to Hass (cut, unlikely, or more debilitating injury). There’s no way I would throw Bradford (hopefully) out there with that O-line; I’d much rather he wait a year on the bench while the line stabilizes.
by SeaTownBlueDevil on
Dec 10, 2008 2:05 PM PST
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Do you think Seattle's line is so bad?
Start of next season assuming no signings or draftees: Walter Jones, Mike Wahle, Chris Spencer, Rob Sims and Sean Locklear.
That’s ~average.
by John Morgan on
Dec 10, 2008 2:14 PM PST
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I heard that Wahle underwent surgery today.
What’s the expected timetable for his recovery?
by BrianL on
Dec 10, 2008 2:47 PM PST
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What's the status on Rob Sims?
Torn pectoral right? Hopefully it’s not the doom of his career like it would be to most linemen.
by myx on
Dec 10, 2008 11:06 PM PST
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Torn pecs have a 4-6 months recovery time.
He should be at full strength by training camp. It might be more of a psychological problem after that, he might subconciously use a little less upper body force. But that’s complete speculation.
by SeaTownBlueDevil on
Dec 10, 2008 11:13 PM PST
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wasn't that the injury Kerney had before he came to us?
and he went on to have a monster year
by Mr Fish on
Dec 12, 2008 12:16 AM PST
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Kerney has a shoulder injury before coming to Seattle
It’s the same injury he’s on IR for now, I think
by Nate Dogg on
Dec 12, 2008 10:49 AM PST
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Fantastic writeup.
With their first pick in the 2009 draft, Seattle should take the best available talent. It’s not certain that will be a quarterback, but quarterback is so disproportionately important to a team’s success, and has been for 42 years, that an above average quarterback is better “talent” than all but the greatest offensive linemen. An above average quarterback is better talent than all but the greatest players at any other position, too.
This is the point I’ve been trying to make but haven’t worded quite right. I think people forget to adjust for position when they’re looking at potential draftees.
I really wish I could find some sort of NFL equivalent of the baseball defensive spectrum to help illustrate this point.
by BrianL on
Dec 10, 2008 2:11 PM PST
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I really should have bolded that last sentence in that blockquote
because I think that’s one of the most important things to take away from this writeup.
by BrianL on
Dec 10, 2008 2:14 PM PST
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The real question is...
…are any of the (dwindling number) of QB prospects worth the spot at which we’re going to be drafting?
If not, are we going to be able to trade down?
by djafrot on
Dec 10, 2008 3:04 PM PST
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Probably not
As it seems like the Lions and Chiefs are both in the market for a QB.
by Right on
Dec 10, 2008 3:07 PM PST
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Great NFL teams have great NFL quarterbacks.
Define “great”
by Right on
Dec 10, 2008 3:09 PM PST
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The context is pretty clearly Super Bowl caliber teams
by Nate Dogg on
Dec 10, 2008 3:13 PM PST
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OK good
Because that’s flatly not true. There are more “great” quarterbacks than there are Super Bowl caliber teams, but name me a defense that’s great but not a Super Bowl contender.
This:
It’s the most trend-fast rule in sports: Great NFL teams have great NFL quarterbacks.
Is not even the most trend fast rule in football. That belongs to: defense wins championships.
by Right on
Dec 10, 2008 3:16 PM PST
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Chicago and Minnesota spring to mind
The Super Bowl winning Colts did not have a great defense…but then you don’t let the facts get in the way of your trolling, do you?
by John Morgan on
Dec 10, 2008 3:25 PM PST
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Why are people who disagree with you "trolling?"
You should be grateful when people argue effectively against your points. When you are wrong, as you often are, you will at least then stand a chance of learning something.
by VBJohnson on
Dec 10, 2008 9:58 PM PST
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True, the Colts Defense was epically terrible.
Here’s the stats for the worst NFL defenses to win a Super Bowl:
2006 Colts: 22.50 points allowed per game
1983 Raiders: 21.13ppg
1968 Jets: 20.00ppg
1998 Broncos: 19.31ppg
1980 Raiders: 19.13ppg
These teams, respectively, had Peyton Manning, Jim Plunkett, Joe Namath, John Elway, and Plunkett again. This certainly lends credence to John’s argument. At the same time, however, I’m going to side with VB Johnson here. I don’t think Right is trolling just because he’s stating his argument in a blunt way. At least he’s not deriding you or anything.
by SeaTownBlueDevil on
Dec 10, 2008 11:00 PM PST
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Right is a user that's been banned a half-dozen times from FG.
by BrianL on
Dec 10, 2008 11:03 PM PST
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Ah, so there's a history.
Nevermind my previous comment then. Is nevermind a word? I’m getting a spell-check warning here.
by SeaTownBlueDevil on
Dec 10, 2008 11:06 PM PST
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Right is interested only in picking fights
if you read his comments he’s purposely rude, obtuse and belligerent. He baits people into arguments and then turns every thread into a long, ugly argument. He has been banned many times including an IP ban, but shows no respect for the site, its commentors or its rules. I’ve been extremely patient, allowing him to post in hopes that he’ll eventually become part of the community and contribute something other than bickering and rudeness, but I have no intention of letting him post on Field Gulls ever again. I think 6+ strikes you’re out is more than fair of me.
by John Morgan on
Dec 11, 2008 2:15 AM PST
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Graham Harrell
What is your opinion and where do you think he goes in the draft?
by m_b on
Dec 10, 2008 3:21 PM PST
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I don't really know yet.
It’s my intention to aggressively preview every viable draft eligible quarterback, but until then I’m reserving judgment. I’m not currently crazy about Harrell, but at the moment I don’t know spit.
by John Morgan on
Dec 10, 2008 3:35 PM PST
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I don't know too much about Harrell either,
But two things kinda stick out to me. First, he’s from a pass-crazy school (other guys are Kevin Kolb from Houston, Colt Brennan, or Timmy Chang). I’m not saying those first two guys are terrible, they may still be good. I’m just thinking, as far as my knowledge goes, there hasn’t been very many QBs from pass-happy systems who were great in the NFL.
Second, the man’s got Crabtree. It seems to me like a college version of last-years Derek Anderson-Braylon Edwards connection.
by SeaTownBlueDevil on
Dec 10, 2008 11:04 PM PST
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The Tape will continue tomorrow
I owe it to my wife to spend time away from work or a computer so we’re watching Paris, Je T’Aime tonight.
I know.
by John Morgan on
Dec 10, 2008 3:37 PM PST
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Hm... Something wrong with compromising?
Or are you watching something like the UFC Championships some other night?
by LantermanC on
Dec 10, 2008 6:58 PM PST
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It's actually not bad
I’m just putting on a macho front.
by John Morgan on
Dec 11, 2008 5:10 PM PST
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Well this has been a fun little journey
I started writing this to say that I didn’t believe what you’re saying draws back to draft position. Now I’m not so sure.
There have been 92 different teams in a super bowl and they were quarterbacked by 50 different players. Essentially a QB who reaches the superbowl once is likely to do it again. Thats not even considering the quarterbacks that go there on the backs of a defense or a strong supporting cast, guys like Eason, O’Donnell, Dilfer and Grossman.
But thats 50 guys out of the 659 quarterbacks drafted since the inception of the Super Bowl. The pre-Super Bowl list is similarly short, with Otto Graham and Bart Starr dominating the list. It comes as no surprise then that the many of these extremely elite, extremely special, and extremely rare players come out of the first round.
Of those 50 QB’s who have been to a Super Bowl, 20 of them were first round picks. Since the beginning of the Super Bowl era there have been 85 quarter backs taken in the first round. Again, this list includes Dilfer, Grossman, Eason and Plunkett, but even so thats about 1 out of every 4 first round QB’s have gone to the big show. Thats ridiculous when you think about it. And while it doesn’t change the idea that if Bradford (or whoever) isn’t the guy then it doesn’t matter whether you take him first or 31st, it should emphasize that quarterbacks taken in the first round are taken there for a reason.
The combination of Super Bowl quarterback rarity and abundance of Super Bowl quarterbacks found in the first round has really changed my thought process as I prepare to go out of the regular season, through the post season and finally into the draft some 131 days from now.
by Nate Dogg on
Dec 10, 2008 4:06 PM PST
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Hmm.
The worst starting quarterback for a Super Bowl winning team is probably Trent Dilfer. Dilfer was selected sixth overall in the 1994 draft.
Kerry Collins could change that.
Mariners ----> Brewers.
by Taylor H on
Dec 10, 2008 5:10 PM PST
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Good writeup. Somewhat irrelevant to the topic but...
I’d argue that Larry Allen was the best player on those Dallas olines.
by puerto on
Dec 10, 2008 5:16 PM PST
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I agree Allen was better
But wasn’t on the 1993 team, so I sorta disqualified him. Many think Allen is the greatest offensive lineman of all time. And, like Newton, Allen was a guard.
If the team doesn’t believe one of this year’s quarterbacks is worthy, I hope it trades down and selects Duke Robinson.
by John Morgan on
Dec 10, 2008 5:33 PM PST
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Ditto on the great write up
However, I believe O lineman outweigh quarterbacks as far as talent go in this years draft. Trading down and taking Robinson would be be perfect. For me, it is the ideal.
by Dukeshire on
Dec 10, 2008 7:07 PM PST
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Good point
I’ve been an o-line first guy, but you made a very compelling point with that remark about zone blitzes and the possibility that the heyday of the LT might be over.
Thinking back on it, our biggest problems pass-blocking have been in the middle of the line. We need a guard and/or center more than a tackle — especially since we have Locklear and Willis already.
Duke Robinson might not fall that far, but it’s almost a certainty that there will be a top guard or center available when we pick in the second round.
So if Bradford declares and is there when we pick in the first round, I say we go for it.
But if it’s Tebow or Harrell, count me out. I just don’t see their game translating to the NFL.
by Mr Fish on
Dec 10, 2008 6:50 PM PST
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I agree.
I’m curious as to how Ruskell grades QBs in the draft. I’m thinking the Lions or Chiefs are getting Bradford, most likely the Lions. I wonder where Tebow or Harrell land on his draft rankings. Who knows, maybe he reads FG and will get back to me.
by SeaTownBlueDevil on
Dec 10, 2008 11:09 PM PST
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Worst SuperBowl QB...
Dilfer over Roethlisberger? Dilfer may have less talent, but who played the worse game?
by lordtd on
Dec 11, 2008 12:04 AM PST
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This is a good point.
Roethlisberger is overlooked as a bad Super Bowl QB just because he’s been good since. He was terrible leading up to the Super Bowl and could easily have lost a number of late-season games for them. Even now, I think he’s overrated – he holds on to the ball way too long. Dilfer is a poor QB, but he managed the game well and avoided mistakes. He didn’t win the game for them, but he didn’t do anything to hurt the cause.
by SeaTownBlueDevil on
Dec 11, 2008 12:40 AM PST
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But, he tackled that Colts player who's wife stabbed him the during the week
and saved the game.
by LantermanC on
Dec 11, 2008 9:32 AM PST
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I didn't mean worst Super Bowl performance
That would require adjusting for opponent and era. I meant the worst quarterback to lead his team to a Super Bowl and then to a Super Bowl victory.
by John Morgan on
Dec 11, 2008 2:18 AM PST
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Didn't Brady play a horrible game his first superbowl
(I think he might’ve won the MVP anyways)
by LantermanC on
Dec 11, 2008 9:31 AM PST
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Three thoughts
1) Boy, it’s tough to separate a QB’s performance from his team’s. The reverse of “Great NFL teams have great NFL quarterbacks” isn’t a ridiculous statement.
2) It’s pretty clear that first-round QBs are more likely to end up in the Super Bowl than anyone else. But your thesis is that the best strategy is to draft a QB, groom him, and let him lead the Hawks to greatness. So, of the QBs in the Super Bowl, how many were first-round picks AND were playing for the team they were drafted by? Maybe it gives the same answer; I don’t know
3) There’s a difference between talking about drafting a QB in the first round and talking about drafting a QB within the top few picks. Given the investment of money and energy required to structure a team around a Top 5 QB pick, it’s still not clear to me that the calculus is in favor of grabbing one so early.
by cyberwulf on
Dec 11, 2008 9:33 AM PST
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there's another factor here
When you draft a big name QB to your team, it signals a new “era” and gives your team a whole lot of attention. Your team suddenly becomes “one to watch”, etc.
If said QB turns out to be even OK in his first season, you see excitement start to build around the league. The most important result of this, in my mind, is that free agents start thinking of your team as a good one to play for.
With Seattle coming to the end of a 2-something season and featuring a battered, “older” quarterback, it’s going to be a hell of an offseason for picking up FA’s. Drafting a QB high will perhaps mitigate a few concerns. Whether or not said concerns will be founded is another question, but sometimes perception is reality.
by djafrot on
Dec 11, 2008 12:35 PM PST
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