Quick Cap: Cardinals 34 - Seahawks 21

by John Morgan on Dec 28, 2008 4:25 PM PST in Game Recap Comment 55 comments

I was a teenager when Seattle signed Mike Holmgren. I didn't know what it meant then and I don't know what it means now.

I know he was always classy,

a crippling traditionalist,

a sometimes brilliant play caller,

a piss-poor GM,

and figure as large as any in Seahawks history.

Enjoy retirement Mike. You earned the right to be remembered for your greatness.

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Do you think Holmgren will have any say during the offseason if he wants to?

I mean, does his career end (for the time being) today? Or do you he will have any input/advice for how to rebuild the team for Mora and Ruskell?

by SeaTownBlueDevil on Dec 28, 2008 4:31 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I don't see why he would.

This isn’t his team anymore, and, considering the state of the Holmgren/Ruskell relationship, I don’t think either is eager to continue it.

by John Morgan on Dec 28, 2008 4:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't see how we need to rebuild.

I sent this in to KJR so they would shut the fuck up about how we need to tear down and restart from the ground up…here we go:

KEY INJURIES, 2008:

(Each of these players, unless otherwise noted, has missed at least one game.)

QB Matt Hasselbeck
QB Seneca Wallace
RB Maurice Morris
FB Leonard Weaver (1 game)
WR Nate Burleson
WR Logan Payne
WR Deion Branch
WR Bobby Engram
WR Koren Robinson
WR Billy McMullen
LT Walter Jones
LG Mike Wahle
C Chris Spencer
RG Rob Sims
RT Sean Locklear
G/T Floyd Womack
DE Patrick Kerney
DT Red Bryant
CB Kelly Jennings (ankle, did not miss a game, could be why he played so poorly early in the year)
LB LeRoy Hill
LB Lofa Tatupu

Seems like any team in the NFL would have a bad year if their entire starting receiving corps and starting offensive line were out for any extended period of time. Throw in losing our Sacks leader, and pro-bowl QB for long periods, and we really had no chance.

Here’s another interesting tidbit. The Hawks were also five drives away from being 9-6 instead of 4-11 right now. We lost to the 49ers (6-9) by 3, Dolphins (10-5) by 3, Cardinals (8-7) by 6, Redskins (8-7) by 3, and Patriots (10-5) by 3. And we had the ball with 2 minutes to go in ALL of those games. Three of those teams are from the tough AFC and NFC east divisions. The two against the Cardinals and 49ers are pretty much inexcusable, but considering three of those games were lost on fluky turnovers at the end of the game, I’d think that luck might even out next year. Also, Charlie freaking Frye only lost by 10 to the Packers. Not saying we would’ve won, but that’s a winnable game even with Seneca Wallace.

My point here is this: The Seahawks do not need to tear down and rebuild. We lost 21(!!) players to injury at key positions this year, and lost many close games. Our new coach may not be liked too well since he’s coached the DBs, but while we can’t deny that 2008 happened, we can’t deny that 2007 happened either. He coached essentially the same unit that year and our secondary was a shutdown secondary in 2007. Factor in that he will likely add a true shotgun formation to our offense, and we may not be in as much trouble in 2009 as we think. I’m not knocking Mike Holmgren—he’s one of the greatest coaches who has ever lived—but don’t be so sure Mora’s a pushover. He took Michael Vick of the career 75 passer rating to the NFC championship. He’s not going to be the worst coach ever, like many Seattle fans seem to fear.

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on Dec 28, 2008 4:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Also, before anyone calls injuries an excuse, think about how any playoff team this year would've done if they missed 21 players.

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on Dec 28, 2008 4:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

My fault.

I didn’t really mean to say rebuild as in starting from scratch, I meant it more as “improve”.

by SeaTownBlueDevil on Dec 28, 2008 5:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

One thing injuries do show is the declining age of the team

Injuries aren’t just about “bad-luck”. When you have that many injuries in a team, there has to be an underlying problem with the team.

I’m not saying that the team should rebuild from scratch, but focusing on getting fresh blood to the team should be a huge emphasis this year. This team is far from Super Bowl contention, even if we have those players you listed healthy.

by aerozeppelin on Dec 29, 2008 11:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Part of a strength and conditioning staffs job is injury prevention

Sure there are some injuries that you can’t prevent through an s/c program, but how much of this falls on the support staff?

by Jo-Jo on Dec 29, 2008 12:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Interesting point. What WAS the average age of the team at the beginning of the year?

But I’m not sure that age is all there is to it. How old was Logan Payne when that dirty hit took out his knee?

by Mr Fish on Dec 29, 2008 12:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

That being said

Thank god he’s on his way out. Maybe I’ll regret it if the new administration sucks, but I’m ready for some modernization.

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on Dec 28, 2008 4:38 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Am I the only one getting annoyed by the long farewell?

Just get on your damned bike and get out of town, will you? Sheesh!

by Mr Fish on Dec 29, 2008 12:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Brandon Mebane has 1 pass defended this season?

Did Marshall drop him into zone coverage some time this season? Don’t remember the play.

by redwolf75 on Dec 28, 2008 4:51 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Is a tipped ball at the line a pass defensed?

by LantermanC on Dec 28, 2008 5:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Farewell Mike, You brought pride to the Seattle Seahawks franchise and for that alone you will always have a special place in my life.

We play Tampa and Dallas(!) again next year and we will draft either 4th or 5th.

by Robert on Dec 28, 2008 4:52 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

could be worse

could be a Cowboys fan. Anyone who doubts the impact that coaches and scheming can make should look at the Cowboys and Dolphins. All the talent in the world in Dallas and they choke the season away. Dolphins went from 1 win to in the playoffs because of a few shred off season moves and a new head coach.

by Hancock.Brett on Dec 28, 2008 4:53 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Dallas's talent...

is routinely overstated because their players are so overexposed. On offense they have some very good players (e.g., Terrance Newman, Roy Williams, Owens). However, Jason Whitten is probably their only player I’d say is top 5 at his position. Their most heralded offensive lineman, Flozell Adams, is better than average but overrated. Mark Columbo is adequate. Gurode is good. But the two guards are awful. I will never get the love affair with Marion Barber. I like watching him run, but he’s never going to be healthy for an entire season. Tony Romo has been vaulted into stardom before his performance has really warranted it. He could be an exceptional, but he doesn’t value the ball (int’s and fumbles). The real talent is on the defensive side of the ball. The ‘Boys really aren’t any more talented top to bottom than the Arizona Cardinals in my opinion.

"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin

by dcrockett17 on Dec 28, 2008 6:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I think you've hit Tony Romo on the head

He was vaulted to stardom before he ever won a ‘big’ game. The closest he’s had in my opinion was the nail-biting fumble on the field goal. Thanks to Papa Simpson though, he’s a bonafide god in Dallas somehow.

by Shooter McGavin on Dec 28, 2008 6:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know...

Dallas was like 13-3 last year, and Romo could practically do no wrong… I’m not sure I buy the ‘big game’ theory.. He’s still a top 5 QB when healthy in my book. OR at least in the conversation…
Manning, Brady, Palmer when healthy… Brees, then Romo?

by LantermanC on Dec 28, 2008 9:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Tony Romo is a fucking JOKE

and I wouldn’t even put that fraud in my top 15, maybe 20 QBs. Give Derek Anderson those skill players and he’ll put up the same stats but with less turnovers.

by Fearless Frog on Dec 28, 2008 11:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I would rate a few before Romo

Rroethlisberger, Cutler, Rivers, hell I would even prefer Eli Manning to Romo if I was making a team from scratch.

by GarethLewin on Dec 29, 2008 2:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I would probably argue you should have to spell at least a few of those names correctly

AND know that TERENCE Newman is a defensive back before you start making unsupported assertions like “Jason Whitten [sic] is probably their only player I’d say is top 5 at his position.”

I DRINK YOUR MILKSHAKE!!! I DRINK IT UP!!

by abender20 on Dec 28, 2008 9:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Really?

THAT’S your response? Sigh.

I’ll cop to shoddy editing in my post. But my basic point remains unchanged so I will repeat it. Dallas does not field a single great offensive player—outside Witten; someone who is top five at his position. There’s a lot of sizzle surrounding that offense but very little steak. (To be fair, “top five” is just a shorthand way of thinking about “great” performance, but relative to the hype that surrounded the Dallas offense from training camp onward you might expect to see performance that lives up to the hype from more than one player.)

I submit as evidence to support this assertion the following:

(All stats from FO through week 16)
QB: Romo – 9th in DYAR, 6th in DVOA
RB: Barber – 28th in DYAR, 31st in DVOA (Mo Mo was a LOT better this year behind a patchwork and unstable OL, and Barber’s always nicked up)
WR: Crayton – 46th in DYAR, 39th in DVOA; Owens – 53rd and 58th respectively
TE: Witten – 3rd in DYAR, 7th in DVOA

Of their skill position players, I don’t think these numbers are anomalous. I don’t think anyone other than Witten projects as a top 5 player going forward. Romo has the tools and athleticism to be great, but his propensity to turn the ball over is to my mind a crippling limitation. Roy Williams has skills to be great and it will be interesting to see what he does for Dallas after a full training camp.

OL: The running game is the purported strength of Dallas’ offensive line. Again, keeping with the overall theme, it is not exceptional in any way (though not terrible at anything either). In the running game they are 9th in Adj. Line Yards, 8th in power rank, 11th in 10+ yard runs. By comparison, Seattle’s patchwork line was actually better in the latter two areas—2nd in power and 7th in long runs. Dallas was good at not getting runs stuffed (10th), though some of that must reasonably be credited to Marion Barber. In pass protection, again, a good-not-great 11th in sack ranking. Individual rankings are much more subjective, but I wouldn’t trade one of their current starters for one of our healthy starters.

Despite playing the NFC West (1 mediocre, 3 bad teams) and the AFC North (2 good, 2 bad teams) the Cowboys never really managed a dominant 4-week stretch this season. Like I said, lots of sizzle little steak.

Now that I’ve fixed the typos, care to disagree?

"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin

by dcrockett17 on Dec 29, 2008 8:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Dallas are the real losers

In hindsight, I really think that Jerry Jone’s penchant to sign flashy players without looking into their character is really starting to bite him in the ass. I mean players like TO, Hamlin, and Pacman Jones aren’t the best teammates to have in the locker room. The attitudes of those type of players together tend to rub off of other players and also the organization.

by aerozeppelin on Dec 28, 2008 11:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

You're right

There is more to character than people think. Sure talent is paramount, but you want to add character too talent. So many people have a polarized view of this; either they are all about talent or all about character. Believe it or not, bot can exist in the same locker room.

Anyway, anyone who expected Dallas to make the playoffs this year wasn’t really paying any attention. Those guys suck at life. I’d rather suck at football for a season than suck at life. I think the Seahawks are in a better position than the Cowboys right now.

All that to be said, I love the ‘Hawks. I don’t understand how so many players can get hurt, but in reality they were playing with a JV nfl line-up every week. Here’s to hoping they can make the most of this draft position and move forward with a new coach.

GO SEAHAWKS!!

by Jo-Jo on Dec 29, 2008 7:50 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

"those guys suck at life."

Classic.

by LantermanC on Dec 29, 2008 9:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I hear we have the 4th pick now

there better be some sweet value out there or to trade out, because I easily envision #1 OL prospect, #1 QB prospect, and Crabtree going top 3.

by Will Kier on Dec 28, 2008 5:47 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Do we get the tie breaker over

Cleveland or Cinci?

by LantermanC on Dec 28, 2008 5:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

We get it over the Browns, and the Bengals had a better record than us.

by MFAN on Dec 28, 2008 5:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Right.

I saw 4-11 and assumed they were playing the Sunday night game, but I forgot the tie.

by LantermanC on Dec 28, 2008 6:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah but...

I play this one by ear. I’m not going into the off-season feeling like we are best off moving that pick.

There’s a lot we won’t know for a while. We don’t know is how the college post-season and combine will play themselves out. Should be interesting.

"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin

by dcrockett17 on Dec 28, 2008 6:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

all so true indeed

by Misfit74 on Dec 28, 2008 7:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Assuming all the highly rated juniors come out its looking like Bradford, Stafford, Smith, and Crabtree are going to be there in the top 5. It should be an interesting draft to say the least.

by Hancock.Brett on Dec 28, 2008 6:43 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I'm eagerly awaiting the combine now. It was fun to watch last year. Now, there's more at stake for us.

by Misfit74 on Dec 28, 2008 7:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, but Ruskell doesn't seem to care about combine numbers

The remaining bowl games are the thing to watch.

by Mr Fish on Dec 28, 2008 7:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

bowl games, yes, but I like getting excited about players as an armchair scout, even if Timmay goes off the board

by Misfit74 on Dec 28, 2008 8:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I think he does care about combine numbers.

If Tatupu runs a 4.9 he probably wouldn’t draft him, but Tatupu who’s labeled as a bit slow and undersized runs a 4.7 and can bench 225 20 times (Just making up random numbers here), and he sees a potential all pro MLB who’s physical skills won’t hinder him from being an all pro linebacker, and who’s mental smarts make him a pro bowler.

Ruskell, doesn’t look at the combine numbers of a Taylor Mays and see ‘potential’ however, since the stats aren’t there. Or at least that’s the impression I get.

by LantermanC on Dec 28, 2008 8:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I can't wait to hear the Mora coaches

if Dan Snyder is dumb enough to toss Jim Zorn as Redskins HC I think a rebound as our OC would be great.

Also: when Marshall goes, that’s the last remnant of the Ray Rhodes era exorcised. Here’s to fresh blood.

by Will Kier on Dec 28, 2008 8:26 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I'm sure while we're all wishing Holmgren god-speed...

None of us are going to miss his laughable play calls, or his Jurassic staff. Also, on a side-note: Larry Fitzgerald is horrifyingly awesome.

by Fearless Frog on Dec 28, 2008 11:17 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I'm wondering if Crabtree can be our Fitzgerald...

by aerozeppelin on Dec 28, 2008 11:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Fitz?

Fitz has a big frame, freaky long arms and great hands. Crabtree reminds me much more of Boldin, a RB at WR. Powerful, good size, not top end speed but fast enough and quick enough to get separation, especially with shorter routes. Even how aggressive Boldin comes back to the ball, which might be my favorite WR trait of Boldin’s.

by cashless on Dec 29, 2008 1:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Boldin and Fitz are both straight awesome.

Crab has shown in college that he has the Fitzgerald-like ability to come away with 50/50 balls due to his timing and hands. Here’s hoping…

I DRINK YOUR MILKSHAKE!!! I DRINK IT UP!!

by abender20 on Dec 29, 2008 9:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

True

Fitz does it with really sticky hands and long arms that reach further than a DB’s hands, while Crab IMO has always done with with his physicality and toughness, more like Boldin. But I do think I would be happy with drafting Crabtree, even if that’s not the position we need the most.

by cashless on Dec 29, 2008 11:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

did Holmgren groom anyone in Seattle?

I don’t think he really bothered cultivating any young coaches. I can think of Jim Zorn, but judging by Holmgren’s comment when Zorn left that Mike couldn’t offer anything to keep Zorn here because he “didn’t have any bullets”, Holmgren wasn’t going to replace Haskell as OC. Compare to what Parcells did in Dallas, where Jason Garrett and Tony Sparano were viewed as potential in-house replacements.

by Will Kier on Dec 29, 2008 12:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

wow, that is an astute observation

And I’m not saying that sarcasticly.

Holmgren’s famous coaching tree is almost entirely people who worked with him in Green Bay. Since coming to Seattle his staff has mostly been old guys finishing up their careers.

Was Zorn ever one of his guys? Or was he someone who was only here because he used to quarterback for us? If Holmgren was grooming him instead of just using him, he would’ve been promoted to OC a couple years ago. God knows he’d earned it with the work he’d done to help polish Hasselbeck and Wallace.

Stump Mitchell? No, he was here before Holmgren.

I got nothing.

by Mr Fish on Dec 29, 2008 1:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah what did Holmgren ever do for the Seahawks?

I sure as hell don’t remember getting to the Superbowl. And I have already forgotten about winning our division 4 times in a row.

And by “I” above I actually mean the average what-have-you-done lately fan.

Also Larry Fitzgerald is awesome :(

by GarethLewin on Dec 29, 2008 2:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

sounds like a legacy similar to dan reeves in atlanta

the greatest coach in the team’s history, but also the worst GM.

by langsty on Dec 29, 2008 5:43 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

ESPN's draft "expert" has us taking an outside linebacker with our first round pick.

by Phildopip on Dec 29, 2008 7:42 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Well we clearly don't need a safety, so that seems reasonable.

It’s always interesting to see what the ESPN draft experts have to say. Some teams have glaring holes and the picks are pretty well assured, like Detroit taking Bradford if he’s there, or the Pats drafting defensive backs or linebackers. A lot of the ESPN guys just don’t watch enough NFL film to see what the actual problems are, so they guess.

I DRINK YOUR MILKSHAKE!!! I DRINK IT UP!!

by abender20 on Dec 29, 2008 9:39 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

well... you know...

…should we decide not to bring Hill back considering his cost, and there are no appropriate FA LB’s out there, I don’t see why we wouldn’t draft a linebacker if the situation were right. We already spend a ton at the position, so it would make sense to carry a cheaper guy at the third spot.

by djafrot on Dec 29, 2008 11:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs