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Seattle's Great Opportunity to Draft that Rarest of Players

In the long list of explanations for Seattle's dismal 2008, one is yet unmentioned. In week one, Buffalo defensive coordinator Perry Fewell aggressively blitzed Seattle's "A" gaps. It worked, and Seattle's offense sputtered. Every opponent since has done likewise. In Seattle's final possession, Bill Belichick uncorked a safety blitz up the middle ending Seattle's series and nullifying its remaining 26% chance of winning. Over most of a season, Mike Holmgren and Gil Haskell have never adjusted. The three step shotgun they devised has had limited success, mostly because of its limited use. It's almost exclusively an audible. I don't know that Seattle's next offensive mastermind will be better at making in-game and in-season adjustments, but I hope so. If not, we may soon long for Holmgren's precision, dedication and emphasis on execution.

. . .

Football Outsiders gives Seattle a 51.7% chance of drafting in the top three and a 91.4% chance of drafting in the top five. The two teams most likely to draft ahead of Seattle are Cincinnati and Detroit. Cincinnati will not draft a quarterback. Detroit might. Depending on who declares, 2008 might be the first draft class since 2000 without a quarterback taken in the first ten picks.

There's this pervasive lie that a team can acquire a quarterback from any point in the draft. Luckily, I do not need to do any independent research on this one. Brian Burke did it for me. The results are remarkably straightforward. Quarterbacks taken in the first round are the most valuable. The average quarterback drafted first overall is worth a half win more and has an 81% chance of being a better than the quaretback drafted second overall. This does not mean should Seattle have the opportunity to take the first overall quarterback they should definitely do so. The reason the first overall quarterback is so much better than the second overall quarterback isn't because there's some cosmic law dictating so. It's because, like 2000, sometimes the first overall quarterback is a first round talent like Chad Pennington while the second overall is Giovanni Carmazzi. It's because the team that selects the first overall quarterback can take any quarterback available while the next is left with Byron Leftwich or Ryan Leaf. Burke found that quarterbacks show a linear decline in quality in all but the fourth round (where, for some reason they dip below the fifth and six rounds). Burke also found that quarterbacks taken outside the first two rounds average less than two years as their drafted team's primary starter. Obviously, that's part opportunity, but it's also part talent. Scanning the history of late-drafted signal callers reveals a lot of Billy Joe Hoberts, Bill Joe Tolivers and an occasional Stoney Case. NFL teams spend huge resources scouting quarterbacks. When they're done, they usually have a good idea who's Peyton Manning and who's Moses Moreno. Even great busts are as much about makeup and opportunity as talent. Can we know that a stable Vince Young couldn't have been a great quarterback or that if David Carr or Tim Couch were drafted by anything but the worst and worst run teams that either or both wouldn't have been successful?

Quarterback talent is rarely found. Finding a Tom Brady or Kurt Warner is mostly luck. Like the universe is mostly space. Both Brady and Warner made their first start following a fortuitous injury. Neither was an act of prescience or genius by their team's GM. Brady barely beat out Tim Rattay on New England's draft board. Warner signed with Saint Louis because of the four states bordering Iowa with a professional football team, Missouri's Rams were most in need of a quarterback.

The real story of finding a great NFL quarterback is written: Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, Jay Cutler, Aaron Rodgers, Jason Campbell, Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger, Carson Palmer...and not Drew Stanton, Jeff Rowe, Jordan Palmer, Charlie Whitehurst, Ingle Martin, Stefan LeFors, Adrian McPherson. Seattle has an excellent shot at the best overall quarterback in the coming NFL draft. It should not have such an opportunity again for at least a decade. A good team with a backbone of talent has the opportunity to draft a great quarterback to build its future around. I've yet to read a compelling argument why it shouldn't. This is no slight of Matt Hasselbeck, who, beyond being 33, expensive, fit only for a short passing system, and perhaps chornically injured, is a free agent in 2011. It's an acceptance of a need and an awareness of a great and truly rare opportunity.

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I absolutely agree with the methodology you use here

Although I am still interested in the potential of a top 5 offensive tackle as well. Basically, I agree that we will not have this good a chance at a top talent again in a while (especially if we trust Ruskell to turn around the utter shipwreck of a year). I would be more excited about drafting that top quarterback if there was one out there I felt being worth that top draft pick. Right now I am not totally sold on any QB that would be in the top five that they would be worth top five money. That will be the fun of the draft prep, I suppose.

Who is that top 5 quarterback? If Bradford declares, perhaps. Who else? Harrell, McCoy??

"Hey, guess what? Nobody cares who would win in a crazy fantasy fist-fight between Anne Frank and Lizzie Borden." The Monarch

by crushedoptimist on Dec 9, 2008 3:49 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would ask, did you think Matt Ryan would be a top quarterback?

His numbers weren’t that impressive and he had the dreaded senior year spike. I hear a lot of people saying they don’t see a top quarterback in this year’s draft, but that’s pretty common. Jay Cutler…Joe Flacco…and, likewise, supposed top quarterbacks don’t always end up so top. I think this deserves careful examination when, and only when, we know who declares. But, barring a terrible class, I think someone emerges worthy of Seattle’s pick.

by John Morgan on Dec 9, 2008 4:06 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oddly enough, I was somewhat comfortable with Matt Ryan

Not that I thought he would be an immediate success, but I do feel that senior quarterbacks on mediocre teams show more overall talent than others who get to hide behind pro level talent at every position (Ken Dorsey comes to mind). You are right that it will deserve careful examination. When it was first apparent that the season was lost, getting a replacement for Hasselbeck longterm was my first thought, and if it does appear that someone emerges I will definitely support it.
Still, I am also a big proponent of a dominant offensive line equaling NFL success (see: Tennessee) and so if no one does really emerge I would rather go down the LT road instead.
Getting a WR, on the other hand, is not something I support.

"Hey, guess what? Nobody cares who would win in a crazy fantasy fist-fight between Anne Frank and Lizzie Borden." The Monarch

by crushedoptimist on Dec 9, 2008 4:23 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I haven't watched Stafford at all.

I know he’s underachieved, but what’s not to like about him (I know nothing about Georgia? A lot of sites (that aren’t updated since August) project him as the number 1 overall pick.

by LantermanC on Dec 9, 2008 4:33 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can't say one way or another, but his statistics aren't awful...

For the season, he has 22 TDs vs 7 INTs with a 61% completion percentage. In other words, he hasn’t been awful. I think he’s being judged as a bit of a failure because Georgia has been so disappointing as a team. We’ll probably hear his name more as the draft camps and such start happening. He’s listed at 6’3", so height isn’t a massive concern. Knowing how much Ruskell loves the SEC, I wouldn’t be surprised if he took a long hard look at Stafford.

"Hey, guess what? Nobody cares who would win in a crazy fantasy fist-fight between Anne Frank and Lizzie Borden." The Monarch

by crushedoptimist on Dec 9, 2008 4:45 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Inconsistent completion percentage and poor footwork

I like Matthew Stafford and I think he’ll be a great QB if he’s fit in the right system that emphasizes on his strengths. However, he’s still unpolished and has a lot to work on.

That said, I don’t think he’ll fit that well in the Seahawks WCO due to his subpar scrambling ability. His arm stength (think JaMarcus Russell) is a huge upside, which the reason why analysts are ranking him higher than other QBs. Sure, Russell has been playing poorly, but keep in mind that he’s playing in the Oakland Raiders, a backhole for all NFL rookies.

by aerozeppelin on Dec 9, 2008 4:49 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I believe that Seneca can be a great starting QB

Decent arm, knows the system well and great running ability. With the league having solidly moved to a kill-the-quarterback-at-almost-any-expense league, his elusiveness will prove to be very valuable. He turned sacks into gains on Sunday.

I haven’t seen Bradford either. if they go Tebow in the first round I will weep.

by lemonverbena on Dec 9, 2008 5:17 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

To be a contrarian...

If anything, I think that the strongest argument arising out of Burke’s analysis might be that very competent quarterbacks can be had in the second round. Despite the more limited playing opportunities which come with a lower pick, QBs picked in the second round are not dramatically worse (in terms of “Wins Above Basement”) than those picked in the first round. And yes, it’s true that the probability that the first QB selected is better than the second QB is 81%, but that says nothing about how much better the former is than the latter.

Also, a complete picture would include similar analyses for other positions (though, of course, assessing performance is much more difficult for these). Maybe if you were able to quantify the performance of offensive linemen, you’d see a much bigger drop off between first and second round picks than you see for QBs. If true (and I believe it might be), this would lead you to conclude that you’re better off drafting a player at a position where you have very little chance of finding a hidden gem lower down in the draft.

by cyberwulf on Dec 9, 2008 5:22 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think this is a really good point

This is a comparison of payoffs. If first pick QB is a good value, that isn’t as important as much as how good that value is compared to other potential values of first picks. For instance, if a first pick tackle is a fantastic value, then it’s a smarter move.

by Snuffleupagus on Dec 9, 2008 9:21 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Seahawks won't

take a QB with the first pick and they shouldn’t. You heard it here first. The reason is simple. A QB won’t have an impact for at least a few years. Hass will be better than any rookie until then anyway. The team is still good enough to contend now if they get an impact player almost anywhere else on the team. Even an impact player at RB or LB, but certainly at safety, DL, OL, WR, even CB will have more of a positive effect on the team for the next two seasons than a QB high draft pick.

by VBJohnson on Dec 9, 2008 6:07 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So when do we take a quarterback?

After Matt has shown he’s no longer able to play? You said that it’s going to take “a few years” for a QB to have an impact on the team. Waiting to draft a quarterback until Matt proves he’s washed up leaves this team flat-footed.

Taking a quarterback this year helps to ensure that the window of success for this team stays open longer.

by BrianL on Dec 9, 2008 6:19 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And as John has said

we are in prime drafting position this year. We’ve got a chance to select a player at perhaps the most important offensive position that can be an impact guy for years and years to come. There’s a very good chance we will never have this kind of an opportunity again.

by BrianL on Dec 9, 2008 6:21 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This argument

holds true at any impact position, like DL. How else are we going to make a big upgrade at putting pressure on opposing QBs? My main point is that drafting at QB wastes the next two seasons or so when we could have big impact now at almost any other position.

by VBJohnson on Dec 9, 2008 6:26 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, maybe

Compared to having big pressure on the QB all next season because we got a great DL, yeah. The chances of success are much better in the next two seasons if there is another impact player on the field instead of sitting on the bench.

by VBJohnson on Dec 9, 2008 6:50 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think I'm seeing where our hangup is here.

I’m no where near as concerned with the next two seasons as you seem to be. I have no problem drafting a player and having them sit for a season or two if that means the long-term reward is greater.

by BrianL on Dec 9, 2008 7:07 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Except that when you draft a quarterback early

And you miss, it sets your franchise back, and who knows how long it can take to recover.

by Right on Dec 9, 2008 7:12 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So because there's a possibility that you could miss on a QB pick

you shouldn’t select one early?

Why does everyone think that if you select a quarterback in the early part of a draft you’re automatically getting Dan McGuire?

by BrianL on Dec 9, 2008 7:16 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not saying you shouldnt

Just pointing out how there’s nothing riskier

by Right on Dec 9, 2008 7:27 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Gosh...

If we draft a LT, would he not potentially start on the bench. Would our potential SS start? Perhaps.

Look at Dorsey. Look at Long. Look at the other Long.

The facts are that 1st round draft picks must grow. We would be wise to take the BPA. If Bradford or McCoy are there, I say pull the trigger.

To think Oher or Davis or Mays are not any more risk, aside from perhaps less expensive, is nearsighted.

Just my 2 cents.

It is what it is...

by kidder95 on Dec 9, 2008 8:17 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Growing is one thing

But sitting on the bench and not contributing at all is another. If the Hawks take a QB, they might not find out he’s bad until 3, 4 years down the road, in which case the team is without a quarterback and not competitive. If another position is drafted, that player can contribute immediately (even if they’re not starting) and if they’re a bust then it won’t cripple the franchise.

by Right on Dec 9, 2008 8:43 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not when you already have one

And your team is in a position that it can be competitive in the next few years. The Seahawks are not in the same position as a team like the Lions, who are in need of someone to build around. They can take that risk because they don’t have a shot at being a playoff team one way or another.

by Right on Dec 9, 2008 8:54 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm beginning to sense that the disconnect here

lies in people who want short term payoff versus people who want long-term stability.

by BrianL on Dec 9, 2008 9:02 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would say in response:

Hasselbeck
McNair
Rodgers
Young
Rivers

All sat out their first year or two… and it worked. It is not to say it would not cause issue, but you can work contracts out to make the #5 draft pick make no base money year one, and make the big money in later years.

Again… I would suggest we all let go of the idea of a salary cap.

It is what it is...

by kidder95 on Dec 9, 2008 8:51 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

`
Quarterback talent is rarely found. Finding a Tom Brady or Kurt Warner is mostly luck. Like the universe is mostly space.

by BrianL on Dec 10, 2008 9:23 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This is simply false

Like Drew Brees, numerous QB talent can be had for a price and doesn’t need to be “found.” You simply sign a guy who has shown he can do it in the NFL by showing him the money. If you find a guy in the draft or cheap somehow, you’re eventually going to have to pay him the big money anyway if he becomes great.

by VBJohnson on Dec 10, 2008 9:43 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Brees was a rarity.

The Chargers had already picked “the next great QB” in Philip Rivers who was essentially the top overall pick (Eli trade). At that time, Brees was terrible. The free-agent market just happened to luck into getting a guy like Brees.

numerous QB talent can be had for a price and doesn’t need to be "found."

How many qualify as “numerous”? Outside of Brees, who else is there? This past year there was Derek Anderson and Chad Pennington, neither of whom are on Brees level. In 2007, David Carr was the headliner (Matt Schaub was acquired via trade). In 2006, there was Brees and Chris Simms (who hasn’t shown anything). This season, there’s Matt Cassel and the AARP trio of Kurt Warner, Kerry Collins, and Jeff Garcia.

In conclusion: Brees was a rarity.

by SeaTownBlueDevil on Dec 10, 2008 10:04 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You left off Favre

and if you look at it over the course of about two or three seasons (that’s about how many years the Seahawks have to find a replacement), and multiply your list above times three, of QBs good enough to take a team to the Super Bowl, ‘numerous’ certainly applies.

by VBJohnson on Dec 10, 2008 12:00 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Favre was traded though

The Jets didn’t throw the money at him

by SeaTownBlueDevil on Dec 10, 2008 2:07 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Matt Cassel and the AARP trio of Kurt Warner, Kerry Collins, and Jeff Garcia.

All of whom have played well enough to get their teams into playoff contention

by Right on Dec 10, 2008 1:09 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’d rather build a line behind which a quarterback can play. Walter Jones has about the same time left on his career as Hass (probably less). It doesn’t matter who you have running the offense, if he’s behind a terrible line he won’t be productive. A long term solution at LT is far more important.

You can win with a sub par QB as long as your line is good (see: Minnesota, Tennessee). The converse is almost never true.

by Right on Dec 10, 2008 1:45 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Minnesota and Tennessee are good.

But does anybody really believe they’ll win the Super Bowl? Don’t get me wrong, Tennessee’s got a great chance, but they also happen to have the best defense in the league.

Look at teams that (I consider) to be more favored to win the Super Bowl: Giants (Eli), Steelers (Ben), Colts (Peyton). All of these teams drafted top QBs, played conservatively (except for Peyton, who aired out 28 picks his rookie year), and built the line up later.

by SeaTownBlueDevil on Dec 10, 2008 2:12 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Amen brotha!

BPA aside, it is time to groom a replacement… if hasselbeck needs anything, it s a good kick in the ass.

It is what it is...

by kidder95 on Dec 10, 2008 4:29 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I know JM's story reference the first and second overall QBs taken

but I think a top 10 pick QB and picks from 11-30 are a big difference. It really depends how much later the 2nd QB is taken. Tthough I guess one could argue that both Quinn and Rodgers had a chance of going in the 2nd (or maybe even first overall). Same goes for Flacco, could have just as easily been a 2nd rounder.

by LantermanC on Dec 10, 2008 9:30 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well,

If you have a few years to do it, you can try out some lower round picks on QB, develop, and see if they pan out, you can wait for a guy who has shown big potential in the NFL already, a free agent, you know, the same way we got Hasselbeck, or you can even give Wallace a shot if you can’t make those work. After all, if anyone knows how to use a running type QB it’s Mora.

by VBJohnson on Dec 9, 2008 6:24 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The chances of a lower round QB being as high-impact as a first round quarterback is low.

Read through what John wrote up.

Burke found that quarterbacks show a linear decline in quality in all but the fourth round (where, for some reason they dip below the fifth and six.

Banking on a low-round QB to succeed because guys like Brady and Hasselbeck have isn’t smart roster construction.

by BrianL on Dec 9, 2008 6:28 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You could say that about nearly any position

Originally I was completely against drafting a QB in the first round… Then I thought about our young WRs and laughed.

by myx on Dec 9, 2008 6:38 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes, you can say that about nearly any position

but it’s especially important to consider in a QB simply because of how important that one player is to the success of the entire offense.

by BrianL on Dec 9, 2008 6:43 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreeing with you

I don’t want our future QB to be any where near the ineptitude of Kent or Taylor

by myx on Dec 9, 2008 6:47 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's why you don't

bank on them. If you pick up a lower round guy or wait for a good FA, you have backup plans. There are guaranteed to be good FA QBs come available in the next few seasons if you have the cap room, for example. There is no question mark there. Once a QB has done it in the NFL you have a much surer thing than picking a high draft pick who has never played in the NFL.

Thing is, this is Seattle’s great opportunity to draft the rarest of players. That’s why they should pick the highest impact guy available when their pick comes up and not be stuck on just getting a QB.

by VBJohnson on Dec 9, 2008 6:47 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Excellent point about the FA's

Year in and year out, there are quarterbacks who are “washed up” who hit free agency. Some examples: Jeff Garcia, Kurt Warner and Kerry Collins, all of whose teams are in the playoff hunt. They’re out there, and if the Seahawks use their picks to build a championship caliber team, then they will see Seattle as a potential destination. It wouldn’t be at all shocking if in a couple of years Philly releases McNabb and he is available.

by Right on Dec 9, 2008 6:55 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed

I don’t see any way they take a quarterback in this draft.

by Dukeshire on Dec 9, 2008 10:36 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Love ya Duke

but disagree… It would be politically correct, but perhaps, MH needs a good kick in the ass.

Now, I’m all for taking a safe approach and drafting mays (ROFLMAO), or the fast dropping Oher, or the Mike Williams esque Crabtree…

BUT… if McCoy changes his mind, or Bradford comes out, then pull the trigger and hire a good QB coach…

If hasselbeck wins, you resign and deal with trading said wunderkind.

There is NO right answer here… which is what makes this such fun.

Remember this name for the 6-7th round… Cullen Harper… he has integrity, a decent arm, and played in a very overmatched (albeit overhyped) Clemson team.

That said, I can tell everyone in Detroit why they suck… they don’t have Peyton Manning:
http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/12/10/dungy-cant-figure-out-why-marinellis-team-stinks/

It is what it is...

by kidder95 on Dec 10, 2008 4:36 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

nice logic, but

Is there any reason we couldn’t fill those other holes on the team in the other rounds with our remaining picks combined with free agency?

by Misfit74 on Dec 10, 2008 2:29 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

To summarize the Brian Burke article in two parts:

1)The NFL’s scouts and general managers are usually correct in their rankings and analysis of players coming out of college, as one would hope, considering the amount of money they’re paid.
2)Higher picks are more valuable than lower picks due to 1.

The article offers no real information to any football fan, just data to support that which anybody who follows football even casually already intuitively knows.

by Right on Dec 9, 2008 6:50 PM PST reply reply actions actions   1 recs

You're cherry picking a bit

I understand the point of your post but you’re rather selective in making it. There are some contradictions as well, you say that the first QB is in general clearly the best, e.g. Manning and Leaf. But in your list of finding great QB’s you’ve got Flacco (2nd), Cutler (3rd), Rodgers (2nd), Campbell (3rd), Roethlisberger (3rd), and either Manning or Rivers was second depending on how you see that trade situation. You point out the difference between Pennington and Carmazzi (an unfair comparison to begin with) in a draft where the two best QBs came out of the sixth round.

A graph that shows that better players go earlier in the draft seems rather superfluous. I can’t think of a position thats not true for. Even at running back, a position most teams deemphasise, the best come out of the first round. It’s why emphasizing or deemphasizing any position just because of the position (outside or kicker or punter of course) is poor strategy.

Regardless of position whichever player grades out best should be the one taken. If it’s Bradford, great. If it’s Oher, awesome. Same for Crabtree or Mays or whichever player you have your heart set on. It doesn’t really matter what we already have, adding talent will always make you better. Did it hurt the Cardinals to draft Fitzgerald, or the Redskins to draft Landry, the Vikings to draft Peterson or the Packers to draft Rodgers? Adding talent to a team will always make it better.

In the Mizzou/OU game thread I said that you can’t find elite o-lineman later in the draft and so thats what I was learning towards. You pointed out several good NFL lines without elite lineman. Now you’re saying the best chance to get an elite QB is in the first round. Well the same argument works there with several teams either finding top notch QB’s later in the draft or winning without an elite quarterback. The Panthers are good as an offense despite an average Delhome at QB, the Giants o-line is dominant as a unit despite lacking a HoF candidate tackle, and no matter what Joe Thomas or Carson Palmer do they’re not going to will those hunks of junks to victory.

by Nate Dogg on Dec 9, 2008 6:55 PM PST reply reply actions actions   1 recs

Adding talent to a team will always make it better.

Unless you’re the Lions, in which case all the first round wideouts in the the world won’t make you competitive.

Excellent post, agree with every point.

by Right on Dec 9, 2008 6:59 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I knew someone would say that

Roy Williams and Calvin Johnson did not hurt that team, all the other decisions that Millen made did.

by Nate Dogg on Dec 9, 2008 7:01 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Koren Robinson ring a bell...

or, perhaps, the other “incredible”, “awesome” WR’s and T’s from 2001:

wooboy… Lenard Davis… Stud Tackle… a can’t miss prospect…
ohhh… David Terrell ring a bell… man, he rocked!
oh man… we should have taken Rod Gardner… go is solid!
ahh, Santa Moss… to the Jets… wait, he plays for the Redskins…
and don’t forget St. Louis’ famous pick: Damoine Lewis… guys a superstar…

Thus… we know nothing. If one feels that they have the next Steve Hutchinson (pick 17) at #5 or #10 or whatever… you take him… pay him… and pray!

Until then, we can pretend.

It is what it is...

by kidder95 on Dec 9, 2008 8:24 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Take the BPA

if it is a QB… go for it… a SS, go for it… a WR, go for ti… a T, go for it… a G, go for it…

It is what it is...

by kidder95 on Dec 9, 2008 8:27 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and to end my conversation with myself

Michael Crabtree reminds me of Mike Williams out of USC…

It is what it is...

by kidder95 on Dec 9, 2008 8:31 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I have two valid pints:

1) I’m drunk as shiat
2) Crabtree smells of a massive bust (Redshirt Sophmore with mega millions, a big body, nice hands, and a slow 40)… say hello to Mike Williams

It is what it is...

by kidder95 on Dec 9, 2008 8:53 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Great point.

I think you could also make a decent counter-argument to the original post: that when a 1st-round QB is a bust, it’s a disaster to the franchise. Arguably much more so than the average position player taken that high. See Mirer, Rick; Leaf, Ryan, McGwire, Dan; etc etc etc…

by lemonverbena on Dec 9, 2008 8:28 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The time factor

One point that was hinted at above but not clearly made is that while this is a unique opportunity, it’s a unique opportunity for every position and we have more time with regard to the QB position because we want someone for the bench.

Lets say a first pick QB has a 90% chance of being successful and a 3rd round has a 30%. then one method of gaining a good QB would be to draft first pick. Another method is to draft 3rd round and test them out in camp, practice, pre-season, junk-time and injury time. If they aren’t any good, you try again. In (very simplistic) theory three of these tries should be about the same as that first pick QB for percentage chance (not really the math here, but the point is simple enough).

That depends on our ability to evaluate QB’s on our bench. But if we think Beck has 4 or 5 more years in him then we have the time to try-out lots of QB’s behind him, and even if it is much less likely that these guys will be good, we can make up for the lower odds with higher number of potential QB’s.

The advantage would be to gain an immediate impact player next year. Maybe gaining a great OL would be the key to making sure that Beck actually does have 4 or 5 more years….

by Snuffleupagus on Dec 9, 2008 9:32 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

4-5 years would put 'Beck at age 37-38.

Yeah, there are some quarterbacks out there playing well into this age, but I’m not sure if it’s wise to bank on ‘Beck being able to do that great OL or not. I just don’t the odds are high enough that we’ll have that much time.

by BrianL on Dec 9, 2008 9:44 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yup...

funny no one has mentioned that the long in the tooth QB’s of this era have NEVER had back problems… nor missed much time.

Hasselbeck is a warrior… and it shows.

It is what it is...

by kidder95 on Dec 10, 2008 4:38 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not that I am against QB

But I think it is going to be one of the top olinemen and someone the Hawks can plug in at OG for the time being.

I know every draft it seems a QB or two emerges from the pack and becomes a top 5 pick, but from what I have seen in CFB this season I just don’t see the guy that that’s going to be when the scouts go over the tapes.

Matt Stafford ? all the tools you want but I am not buying him as a winner/leader.

Tim Tebow? might stay in school and is a winner and has all the intangibles you want but there are serious questions about his game translating to the NFL.

Sam Bradford? one of my favorites and the one I probably would take in the top 5. But he has a dominant oline, good wrs an awsome TE and is in a spread – Jason White looked just as good under the same circumstances.

Mark Sanchez? Like him a lot but I think he’ll stay.

Nate Davis? love him, but he’s staying.

Josh Freeman? somewhat high on him.

I’m just saying there is no need to draft a QB for the sake of drafting a QB if it isn’t the right player.

by puerto on Dec 9, 2008 11:51 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree

with pretty much everything here. Whether we have to take a QB with our top pick depends a lot on who comes out. I think Sanchez or Bradford are worthy, I am not so sure about Stafford. Also, you have to construct your draft board and then trust it come draft day. We also don’t really know which offensive coaches will be around and what their prerogatives will be.

I like the fact that the zeitgeist here has shifted towards wanting a higher pick. I don’t even want to see the hawks lose, but the blow is softened by knowing we will be picking at the top of every round. I understand that the top picks do command more salary.. Stil, the difference in salary is very often worth it. I would say it comes down to a wash with early first round picks. Consider CIN and DET. One team wants a QB and the other (likely) a lineman. Therefore, those teams ought to compete for the second pick because it will save them money. The thing that tips the scales towards the weaker teams though, the thing that has gone strangely unmentioned here, is the later rounds. The NFL draft does not work like your fantasy draft. If we get the 3rd pick, we get the third pick EVERY round. That means our second round pick will be nearly as good as our 1st round pick in recent years. Ditto our third with our previous second rounders. It is as if we are getting the same draft we got last year with the 3rd overall pick thrown in as a bonus. That is HUGE. This is why a team like Arizona has good odds of eventually becoming competitive. Now we get the boost.

by michaelfox99 on Dec 10, 2008 5:01 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That is the point that I've been waiting to read as I dizzy myself with all these comments

The ‘Hawks are gonna get the 35th overall pick, which isn’t too terribly different than the 25th in talent based on needs. A high second round pick can come right in and start at the NFL level in many cases. So why not use the high first round pick to go after a QB.

But the one thing that bothers me is that this year seems to be low on QB talent. But I guess that’s a whole other argument.

by Jo-Jo on Dec 10, 2008 9:13 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i'm slightly surprised that Wallace is not part of the discussion here.

the FG fanbase seems to make up their collective mind as if needing a future starter is a fait accompli. kind of like prior to this season when, if you read this blog, Morris was sure to be moved and Weaver was virtually worthless at fullback. certainly the front office and coaching staff will be including Seneca in the equation.

by lemonverbena on Dec 10, 2008 8:38 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree, everyone likes him now because of this one game,

problem is, he’s already had plenty of experience. I’m not sure why he sucked so much before (calf?), but he is a pretty damn good backup QB, definitely worth paying extra for. I like the fact that if Hass is injured, we have him to fall back in for a few games (let’s face it, if your QB is injured for more than a few games, your team is usually screwed), but I don’t think he should be considered starter-worthy, and there’s no shame in that.

by LantermanC on Dec 10, 2008 1:00 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Seneca is a great backup quarterback.ft.

You’re right that he’s not starter material, but he’s great insurance to have on the bench. If we take a QB in the draft, I’d love to hang on to Seneca and jettison Frye.

by BrianL on Dec 10, 2008 1:05 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Same, I wanted to give Frye a shot to show that he's a serviceable backup with potential

but I just don’t see it. We should draft someone, whether it’s in the 1st or the 5th round (one of the Missouri Chase QBs perhaps?), so at least we can see if they have the potential to play in the NFL.

by LantermanC on Dec 10, 2008 1:20 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why...

would we draft another small QB… this time with no speed and a weaker arm…?

Why?

It is what it is...

by kidder95 on Dec 10, 2008 4:40 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hass was 25 with 0 career starts, 3 years in the system when he got here.

Wallace will be 29 with 9 starts and 6 years in the system starting ’09.

It’s possible that he has some sort of Rich Gannon-like post-30 spike. But I don’t think it’s likely. IMO it would take a coaching staff that really knew how to use him and tailored a scheme around him. Not to mention that Wallace’s one real strength (scrambling/speed) is something that could drop off very quickly with age/injury. And without that, he’s a totally different player (see the Tampa game)

I really like Wallace, but I think we’ve seen his maxed out potential – the above-average competent back-up that can keep a season afloat if forced to start 4-5 games on a good team.

My big hang-up about Wallace is his ball security. All of the other things can be worked around. But the guy just seems destined for 1-2 key fumbles per game. It was a problem for him in college as well. And I think if it hasn’t been coached out of him yet, it’s probably never going to be.

by jteckmann on Dec 10, 2008 1:15 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Seneca

Another downfall of his, that I see, is that he must scramble or at least move to find throwing-lanes due to his lack of height. That affects the timing of routes and helps to cause turnovers via INT or fumble.

by Misfit74 on Dec 10, 2008 3:09 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

n/s

The blog felt Morris might be traded because the team had just acquired 2 RB’s, teams usually don’t go with a 3 back system, so it was a far assumption to think Morris might be traded.

I don’t remember anyone here saying Weaver was worthless as a fullback, there was mention that his blocking could use some fine tuning, but no one said he was worthless.

by MFAN on Dec 10, 2008 9:32 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't remember it that way

Maybe it was PDE (Post-Draft Emotion), but most here were hailing Schmitt as the much-needed replacement for Weaver.

by lemonverbena on Dec 10, 2008 12:40 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

we all have different memories

I remember people loving Schmitt for his attitude and blocking, but at the same time questioning the need of the pick because they were high on Weaver’s running, catching and progress in blocking. Throw in Mo’s presence, the jones/Duckett FA signings, and the Forsett value pick in the 7th … and there was just a lot of “how the heck are these guys going to fit together” speculation that ranged from RBBC to 1-2 of them getting cut to Weaver switched to HB. It was all over the map. .

by jteckmann on Dec 10, 2008 1:21 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Actually

I mentioned it above as one possible option, especially with Mora as HC, since he has plenty of experience with a running QB.

by VBJohnson on Dec 10, 2008 9:47 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Except

Our running QB is both slower than Vick and has a weaker arm. They’re about the same in terms of accuracy, which is to say that both of them suck(ed).

by SeaTownBlueDevil on Dec 10, 2008 9:52 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You're leaving off

a couple of crucial factors in evaluating Wallace as a future starter. First, he has had numerous mitigating circumstances, like for example this season, no one open to throw to. From what I’ve seen, considering just that one thing, he’s very accurate.

Secondly, the evaluation of a player, especially a WCO QB should not be cast in stone. Wallace has shown improvement over the past few seasons and given another season or two, will probably be even better.

by VBJohnson on Dec 10, 2008 12:25 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Slightly off-topic

Malcolm Gladwell has a new piece up at the New Yorker, where he looks at “the quarterback problem” in a number of fields (the NFL, education, financial services). He writes the story around a scouting trip to Columbia, MO where a scout takes a look at Chase Daniel.

"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin

by dcrockett17 on Dec 10, 2008 11:46 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hat tip goes to

RockMNation (a Mizzou blog) for the link.

"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin

by dcrockett17 on Dec 10, 2008 11:47 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Great article.
The year before, the same thing happened with Ryan Leaf, who was the Chase Daniel of 1998.

Not sure about this part though.’

But goddamn that article is interesting. It combines three interests of mine: football, education, and finance. The idea of paying a teacher 1.5 the salary is interesting, but would never work because the bad teacher who only taught .5 a years worth would get screwed over and would barely making living wage.

by LantermanC on Dec 10, 2008 1:18 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It was linked through Football Outsiders

as an astute poster at Football Outsiders mentions, Gladwell’s stories seem much less informative to those who already know what he’s talking about. Daniel makes an interesting metaphor; I didn’t take much from the parts of the article actually about football.

by John Morgan on Dec 10, 2008 1:55 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I got 3 pages in and realised that this wasn't going beyond "Quarterbacks are hard to scout"

but I was only reading it for the football portion, maybe the other portions appealed to other people more.

by Nate Dogg on Dec 10, 2008 2:56 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Stafford

I like what I’ve learned of him, but haven’t watched much footage or game action. The idea of a ‘big arm’, although sometime overrated or misguided (see: J.Russell), is exciting. Bradford’s ‘system/team’ success has me skeptical of him. Same with guys like Harrell. Matt Ryan did ‘more with less’ and his game translated well to the NFL. Could Stafford be a similar guy, perhaps with a bigger arm?

by Misfit74 on Dec 10, 2008 2:32 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Stafford would make a good

late 1st or early 2nd round pick

It is what it is...

by kidder95 on Dec 10, 2008 5:28 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah I've noticed that

he gets a lot of knob slobbering as the “Best Pro Prospect QB”, but I think a large part of that comes from the fact that he plays in the vastly over rated SEC AND that there are only maybe 2 other decent QBs in that league right now (JPW and Tebow, neither of whom have much pro potential).

From what I’ve seen Stafford is Rudy Carpenter with a better line and running game.

You know what? Fuck you Sports Gods, fuck you.

by bluemax on Dec 11, 2008 1:53 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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