Football Explained: Debunking Joe Namath
When Joe Namath drunkenly propositioned Susie Kolber on Monday Night Football, young fans could be forgiven if they thought it a sad epilogue for a once great quarterback. Namath remains, now more than 30 years past retirement, one of the most recognizable names and faces in the history of the NFL. An icon, a star from the modern NFL’s fountainhead, the man who called his team’s victory and delivered, Broadway Joe—the worst quarterback enshrined in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
Namath was immobile, inaccurate, a poor decision maker and injury prone. Even adjusting for a deflated offensive environment, especially pass offense, Namath was rarely better than average as compared to his peers. His first standout season, 1967, in which he was the first professional quarterback to throw for 4,000 yards, Namath was 1st in yards per attempt and 2nd in completion percentage, but 4th in passer rating, 6th in interception percentage and 5th in touchdown percentage among only 9 teams and 8 quarterbacks with 300 or more attempts. His second and only other very good season was in 1972. That season he ranked 1st in adjusted yards per attempt. The rest of his career was spent on the statistical wrong side of Daryle Lamonica, John Hadl, Ken Anderon, Bert Jones and the rest. Post merger, Namath recorded only one Pro Bowl and only one season where he started all 14 games.
Namath was purely the product of hype. In the modern NFL, his mix of high-profile and inferior ability compare to Eli Manning. Broadway Joe was a big personality in a bigger city. Who rode a broad smile, feather boa, a timely quote and an upset victory to far more than his fair share of fame. A barely above average player, a nominative Hall of Famer; Namath's legend stands as one of the greater frauds in the annals of the NFL. All feather, no football.
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Wow
what a brash and unabashed statement to make. You did well backing it up and have mostly converted me, John. Thank-you.
Why? Because the Seahawks rock my socks.
wiki sez
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Namath
Hall of Fame legacy
Joe Namath is in the Professional Football Hall of Fame. While his career statistics are not exceptional, Namath was the first great modern era quarterback and he was the games first true media superstar. Namath was the first NFL quarterback to throw for 4,000 yards during the 14 game 1967 season. This feat was not to be achieved again until Dan Fouts topped 4,000 yards during the 1979 season in a 16 game season. Namath threw for 4,000 yards under old rules that gave much less protection to both the quarterback and receivers. Namath’s play on the field in the years before his knees seriously limited his mobility helped evolve the quarterback position and the NFL style of play from a run oriented ball control game to today’s more open passing style. Perhaps the accolades of experts say it best. Hall of Fame coach Bill Walsh stated that Namath was “the most beautiful, accurate, stylish passer with the quickest release I’ve ever seen.” Hall of Fame coach Don Shula stated that Namath was “one of the 3 smartest quarterbacks of all time”
Throwing for 4,000 yards is not a significant achievement
It was reflective of fundamental changes in the way the game was played. Namath had 491 attempts in 1967. That total was only topped twice in the first 45 years of professional football. Namath injured his knee in college. As a professional, he was never considered a particularly mobile quarterback. He never topped 50 yards rushing in a season. “helped evolve the quarterback position” is unfalsiable nonsense. Rule changes and the inherent progress created by competition led to a more pass-centric NFL, not Namath.
I’m glad Bill Walsh and Don Shula liked him. That doesn’t make him a HOFer.
Only problem is...
...Namath’s 4000 yds preceded the rule changes. Considering the conditions he threw under that season (less QB & WR protection, 14 game season), that feat is unlikely to be equalled in the NFL.
by stephentrapani on May 29, 2008 10:29 PM PDT up reply actions
It was a different era.
If you go back and look at the Fran Tarkenton’s, Sonny Jurgensen, and Bob Griese’s of the Hall they’re all pretty underwhelming. It was a time of Terry Bradshaw’s and not Peyton Manning’s. Part of being a Hall of Famer is, well, fame, and he certainly has that. Namath isn’t Unitas, Montana, or Brady, but he probabley belongs in the HoF, albeit more for his lore than his play.
What it meant to be a great QB then
is different than what it means today. There is a much greater emphasis placed on interceptions in today’s NFL which changes our perspective of his interceptions and int ratio, even compared to peers, then.
I don’t disagree that Namath is probabley the worst QB in the Hall, but I think that he is one of the rare cases where his persona and place in history supercedes the numbers.
Why does everyone want to defend him?
Everything I’ve ever heard about Namath is that he’s overrated.
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 25, 2008 10:36 PM PDT up reply actions
I like Joe
and I like his story. I think he’s a huge part of NFL history. John’s right about his numbers, they’re not HoF worthy, but his legend and the popularity he brought to the league during it’s infancy is something that transcends his stats.
So he's a Hall of Fame NFL Personality, not a Hall of Fame NFL player.
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 26, 2008 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions
There are at least three QBs
in the HOF with worse stats than Namath (worse completion % and worse QB rating).
by stephentrapani on May 31, 2008 9:05 AM PDT up reply actions
It's a mistake
It’s a mistake to evaluate any NFL player purely on stats. In order to evaluate, stats take a back seat to evaluation by a knowledgeable football talent evaluator who has seen actual film of the player and seen them in person, extensively. If you look at what Walsh and Shula were quoted as saying above, for example, you see things that basically don’t show up in stats. What we care about is how much that player helped his team win. Stats alone certainly can’t determine that.
yeah, isn't he the only QB in the hall of fame with a losing record as a starter?
FREE JEREMY REED!!
I'm pretty sure Dan Fouts and Sonny Jurgensen had losing records.
I wouldn’t evaluate a quarterback based on his team’s record, but you can’t throw 47 more interceptions than touchdowns and be a great quarterback. Namath is the product of hype and the power of the New York media. He is no more a great quarterback than Derek Jeter is a great defender.
Yeah, the career 173/220 TD/INT ratio is awful. Good write up John. It is something I never really thought about.
You just kind of grow up thinking of Namath as an old lush who gets a pass because he was a great player. When you take away the great player thing….whoops.
Didn't Dan Marino have a losing record?
or was it just that he didn’t win a superbowl?
Anyways, If his stats aren’t good and his teams weren’t very good, then he shouldn’t be in the hall of fame, But how good was his his line and recievers? If the recievers were horrible and couldn’t get open, he would then have to force the pass causing bad plays. And if the line wasn’t good, then he wouldn’t have anytime to through the ball since he was imobile even if the recievers were open. But i don’t know anything about his teams so I don’t know how good his supporting cast was.
Making unsupported declarations
..doesn’t demonstrate anything. What makes you think Namath didn’t help his team win? What would they have done without him, for example? You never saw him play and yet you think you can judge him better than Shula And Walsh? Nonsense.
ARGH
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on May 26, 2008 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions
Easy Brett.
You can’t convert all of the mindless sheeple.
Does anyone have any idea
how good Namath really was? Of course all of you know that quarterback play relies highly on your supporting cast, right?
Did his defense give him lots of chances? Do any of you know how good his offensive line was? How about his running backs? How about his wide receivers? Any idea how many of his interceptions were his own fault? How about the schemes and plays he was running? Did they put a big demand on the QB or were they relatively easy? Without any of this information, do any of you have any hope of determining how good or bad Namath was? Any hope at all? Don’t fall into the trap of relying on stats for the ability of any player in the NFL.
If you're going to ask those questions
you’d best be willing to read the answers when John goes through them in detail, if he decides to. He rarely if ever gives the short answer if he hasn’t done the work for the long one.
by The Ancient Mariner on May 26, 2008 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions
So what your actually saying is
There is no actual way to properly evaluate any player, in any sport, ever. Because there are always factors that are not controllable by the particpant.
Either nobody or everybody should be in the NFL Hall of Fame because all of those factors you identified can only be subjectively analysed by each individual. Do you know exactly how good Peyton Manning’s offensive line ect ect is?
You can view it, make a judgement for yourself, use statistics like John uses ect to make educated guesses; but in your view, because there is no way to actually 100% accurately determine exactly how good of a player anyone is, no one can put their opinions into the public domain. Because they are not 100% correct, you should keep them to yourself.
Surely you realise that all analysis about every player relies highly upon other factors outside of their control. Therefore it is impossible to know for sure how good that player is. Therefore it is impossible to judge other players on his team because you arn’t completely sure how much benefit they gain from his play. Therefore you can’t judge the player because you don’t know how good his teammates are. ect ect ect. and the circle goes on.
(PS This whole post is rambling, not very coherent, and probably makes more sense if you start at the bottom; but I think the points made within the post are important and I’m not going to spend time editing it because I’ve got work to do)
Exactly where in the rule book it says that the home team cannot decide which rules will be used?
That's not what I'm saying
“There is no actual way to properly evaluate any player, in any sport, ever. Because there are always factors that are not controllable by the particpant.”
No, that’s not at all what I’m saying. Players can be properly evaluated with accuracy, but it requires more than just what shows up in historical statistics! *
Much of the information needed has to be viewed over and over on real game tape (not TV tape). Even that isn’t enough. Some of it can be seen only when you are standing close to the play with an opposing player trying to stop them, some you can see by watching on TV and on TV tape, or by hearing from those who *were there, or by talking to others who have seen real game tape, etc
These extra facts are crucial in determining whether Namath belongs in the HOF.
For example, Namath had a quick release. This allows a team to have less skilled offensive lineman because since the QB can get the ball to the WRs faster, he needs a little less time. Shula said he was very accurate. This allows your WRs to not have to get as wide open. The defender can be within a foot and you still complete the pass. And so on.
None of this shows up on statistics and much of it can only be seen by people who saw him play, or with other types of analysis. The reporters and players and coaches who evalutated Namath and voted him into the HOF did much of this viewing of Namath, unlike anyone here, and so has much much more facts upon which to base a conclusion.
Namath has not been debunked here by any means. That’s all I’m saying. All of the issues I have raised and many more, some available to millions of football fans who did see Namath play, have to be addressed in order to “debunk” Namath as a good pick for the Hall of Fame. I hope Morgan does do a complete analysis about Namath. I’d love to see it. But he should know better than to make such a judgement based upon the sketchy data he has posted here, is all I’m saying.
“Either nobody or everybody should be in the NFL Hall of Fame because all of those factors you identified can only be subjectively analysed by each individual. Do you know exactly how good Peyton Manning’s offensive line ect ect is?”
At best, judging player and coach ability is an inexact Science. That ’s part of what I’m saying. But reasoning can and must be used to determine objective truth also. Stats must be applied with correct reasoning for example. And many factors can be accurately gauged to a reasonable standard just by observing well, without many stats at all. For example, the Seahawks have a WR prospect come to Seattle and run some routes against their CBs and Trufant. In short order they know whether the guy is worth signing. His stats play an insignificant role.
“Surely you realise that all analysis about every player relies highly upon other factors outside of their control. Therefore it is impossible to know for sure how good that player is. Therefore it is impossible to judge other players on his team because you arn’t completely sure how much benefit they gain from his play.”
You misunderstand me. The truth is not subjective, it is objective. All I’m saying is that there is alot more facts involved than what show up in statistics. For example, have you seen the stats of Cortez Kennedy for the last five or so seasons of his career? They stink massively. If you don’t know he was double teamed, if you didn’t see teams running away from him and watch him bust through many double teams, you would think he stunk it up because he didn’t have lots of tackles or sacks.. He didn’t stink, but the “objective stats* say he did. The point is that we must apply those stats in concert with all the other facts in order to arrive at correct conclusions.
Namath didn’t stink either. He was awesome. He didn’t do it for as long as many in the Hall of Fame, but he was awesome overall. I am providing no argument for this atm. I am only refuting Morgan’s argument: The stats he presents here do not demonstrate Namath to be a fraud.
by stephentrapani on May 26, 2008 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Shula didn't say he was accurate and neither Shula nor Walsh said he was good.
Not that that matters much, as coaches are famously full of bologna, but you seem to be drawing some pretty extensive conclusions from those two quotes, so I thought clarification was due.
You state:
Much of the information needed has to be viewed over and over on real game tape (not TV tape). Even that isn’t enough. Some of it can be seen only when you are standing close to the play with an opposing player trying to stop them, some you can see by watching on TV and on TV tape, or by hearing from those who *were there, or by talking to others who have seen real game tape, etcThese extra facts are crucial in determining whether Namath belongs in the HOF
Or, to put it more succinctly, anyone wishing to determine if Joe Namath is a Hall of Famer or not must have either A. Studied him extensively from the field, or B. Studied him extensively on game tape. This disqualifies the people who voted Namath into the hall, predominately sports writers, who neither watched him extensively from the field nor are privy to game tape. In an attempt to validate his selection, the criteria you’ve chosen has invalidated the entire process for selection. It would seem you are attempting to set a standard I can’t possibly meet and then argue that if I can’t then the status quo must be true, but in doing so you yourself have invalidated the status quo.
To your more specific arguments, comparing the stats of a defensive lineman with the stats of a quarterback couldn’t be more misguided. There is no mainstream stat for creating pressure or forcing a double team, whereas virtually everything a quarterback does is quantifiable. Nevertheless, Kennedy’s stats were good throughout his career. He only twice recorded fewer than 4 sacks in a season he started more than 8 games, a phenomenal total for a 1 tech, run stuffing defensive tackle. Tez’s career sack total ranks 84th all time, despite not playing a prominent pass rush position. He was named to the Pro Bowl 8 times, something Namath only did once following the merger. It’s an apples to oranges comparison that only further sheds light on the disparity between a deserving Hall of Famer and one elected for his historical significance.
It doesn’t matter if Namath had a quick release or strong arm or any tools-based evaluation, his job was to complete passes to his receivers. Great quarterbacks, like Peyton Manning or Tom Brady, make the receivers around them better. When Marvin Harrison, arguably one of the top 10 wide receivers of all time, missed most of 2007, Manning didn’t collapse. Suddenly, Anthony Gonzalez and Ben Utecht were ultra-productive. Freed from Oakland, a washed up Randy Moss had the greatest season of his career – paired with Tom Brady. On the flip side, in 2007, the Lions drafted the best wide receiver prospect since Randy Moss, Calvin Johnson, but retained Jon Kitna. The Kitna helmed Lions passing offense declined from 2007 to 2006 despite having Johnson, Roy Williams, Shaun McDonald and Mike Furey receiving for them. Why? Poor pass protection certainly factored in, but the essential reason was that Kitna, no matter the surrounding talent, is a long past his prime, never greater than mediocre quarterback. It’s one of the more fundamental tenants of football: A passing offense reflects, above all else, the quarterback. See New Orleans 2005 and New Orleans 2006. The difference, Drew Brees. If you have Peyton Manning, you can swap 3-time Pro Bowler Tarik Glenn for Tony Ugoh, you can swap one of the greatest wide receivers to ever live Marvin Harrison for Anthony Gonzalez, because great quarterbacks make great passing offenses. Not alone, no, but above all else and at the center of all, the quarterback.
Namath’s Jets were bad teams with bad passing offenses. He had a brief peak in his youth before crumbling as a veteran. In the first season he missed significant time, 1970, his backup, Al Woodall, posted a better completion percentage, touchdown percentage, interception percentage, quarterback rating and adjusted yards per attempt. In 1973, Woodall nearly duplicated the feat, still posting a better touchdown percentage and interception percentage than Namath. Woodall played 5 seasons and made 19 starts in his entire career, all with the Jets. He was a nobody, a scrub, a backup. Namath’s numbers, with the exact same surrounding talent, should have dwarfed Woodall’s. But they didn’t, because for the majority of his career, Namath was not that good.
Had Namath not played in New York, not guaranteed the Jets victory, not been a larger than life personality, he wouldn’t be in the Hall. His peak was never even as great as Kurt Warner’s and his career numbers compare unfavorably to John Hadl. Namath was a very good player for a brief time and injury prone shell of himself by his late twenties. I can say without a single reservation, were I starting a team today, there are a half dozen quarterbacks currently playing (Manning, Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, Carson Palmer, Drew Brees and Matt Hasselbeck) whose career I’d select over Namath. Namath’s career passer rating, 65.5, ranks more than five points below any other HOF quarterback who started their career after 1950. Excepting Terry Bradshaw, 70.9, Namath’s quarterback rating ranks 11.6 points below his closest Hall enshrined peer, Bob Griese. Griese and Bradshaw played for legendary dynasties. Namath was a worse quarterback on worse teams, with less career productivity. By anything but the most subjective of standards, Namath is not a deserving Hall of Famer.
by John Morgan on May 27, 2008 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions
“Or, to put it more succinctly, anyone wishing to determine if Joe Namath is a Hall of Famer or not must have either A. Studied him extensively from the field, or B. Studied him extensively on game tape.”
A little too succinct. That’s not at all what I said. Basically I said that he can’t be judged purely from stats without ever seeing him play as you tried to do. I described a number of facts you would need to judge him better. You addressed almost none of my argument. Any idea how good the rest of his team was, for example? Why do you watch tape of any players play when you judge them on this blog and then assume you can judge Namath without ever seeing him?
“It would seem you are attempting to set a standard I can’t possibly meet.”
Well, unless you watch all his games, or at least a majority, educate yourself about the NFL era he played in, and watch some of his peers, you can’t judge whether he belongs in the Hall. Are you saying you can make a good judgement about anything you so desire regardless of how few facts you possess? Why do you think that?
“I can say without a single reservation, were I starting a team today, there are a half dozen quarterbacks currently playing (Manning, Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, Carson Palmer, Drew Brees and Matt Hasselbeck) whose career I’d select over Namath. Namath’s career passer rating, 65.5, ranks more than five points below any other HOF quarterback”
See this right here show how little you know about what Namath did. He literally transformed the NFL from a league strong on running to a league strong on passing. Did you know that? He was the prototype from which all those guys followed. For the same reason that the Beatles are considered the greatest, because they were pioneers and leaders, Namath was great also. Before him there was basically no such thing in the NFL as a guy like Hasselbeck, who could dominate a game with virtually no running ability at all. And none of the guys you name had the passing ability Namath did. Put them back in Namath’s place and they wouldn’t have been able to accoplish a fraction of what he did.
by stephentrapani on May 27, 2008 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions
...
See this right here show how little you know about what Namath did. He literally transformed the NFL from a league strong on running to a league strong on passing. Did you know that? He was the prototype from which all those guys followed. For the same reason that the Beatles are considered the greatest, because they were pioneers and leaders, Namath was great also. Before him there was basically no such thing in the NFL as a guy like Hasselbeck, who could dominate a game with virtually no running ability at all.
This quote alone explains why I have no further reason to continue this debate. You should really fact check your claims. The above is complete nonsense. It proves you have little understanding of Namath’s peers or the period he played in.
BTW
Shula said Namath was “without equal as a passer.”
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,906587-6,00.html
Walsh said Namath was: “the most beautiful, accurate, stylish passer with the quickest release I’ve ever seen.” (wikipedia)
by stephentrapani on May 27, 2008 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions
And the Earth was created in 4004 BC with dinosaur fossils in it
I can find a source that says that, too.
The question is the value of the source. Regardless of Walsh’s reputation, that quote proves only one of two things: either he was misquoted or his memory was going. I can’t speak for beautiful or stylish, but “accurate” can be quantified, and Walsh really should have known better:
QB A: career completion% 59.3%, season best 70.6%; career INT% 3.6%, season best 2.1%
QB B: career completion% 63.2%, season best 70.2%; career INT% 2.6%, season best 1.8%
QB C: career completion% 64.3%, season best 70.3%; career INT% 2.6%, season best 1.7%
QB D: career completion% 50.2%, season best 52.9%; career INT% 5.8%, season best 4.5%
QB E: career completion% 56.1%, season best 60.3%; career INT% 4.0%, season best 2.3%
“Four of these things belong together; four of these things are kind of the same. One of these things just doesn’t belong here . . .”
(If you’re interested: A: Ken Anderson, B: Joe Montana, C: Steve Young, D: Joe Namath, E: Bert Jones . . . the real shame of that Walsh quote is that he coached three of these guys, all a long way more accurate than Namath.)
by The Ancient Mariner on May 28, 2008 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Another example of stats not telling the story
Completion percentage does not tell the whole story of a passers accuracy. I will explain.
When you look at the whole picture:
1) you understand that dropped passes count against a passers completion percentage,
2) you understand that the accuracy of passers who throw deep frequently like Namath compared to passers who throw short frequently like Young, can’t be compared via completion percentage. Obviously the guy who can complete the long ones best is the most accurate passer;
3) you understand that a QB with WRs who are wide open all the time compared to a QB with WRs who aren’t as good and who has to force passes in order to win the game can’t have their accuracy compared via completion percentage.
4) you understand that a QB with tons of time to throw the ball, like Young usually had, can wait for WRs to get wide open where the immobile guy with a porous line like Namath usually had has to be much more accurate to complete passes.
You guys have to stop throwing around superficial stats like they tell the whole story in the NFL. They don’t. And when you start really believing that you know more about NFL quarterbacks than guys like Bill Walsh and Don Shula who watched all these QBs on film extensively while you’ve barely seen them in TV commercials??? Come on, what’s wrong with this picture?
by stephentrapani on May 28, 2008 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Very true, and systems change, no question
which is why Johnny Unitas has a career completion percentage of 54.6% with a season best of 58.5%, and a career INT% of 4.9% with a season best of 2.7%. On the other hand, that still mops the floor with Namath, as does his contemporary Bert Jones; had I gone for a different comparison, I could have put him up with Daryle Lamonica and John Hadl, and shown that his accuracy numbers are right in line with those two (you could swap them around and no one would be able to tell the difference).
Also, re: the whole “throwing deep” thing: Namath’s average yards per catch, career: 14.7. Lamonica: 14.9. Unitas: 14.2. Hadl: 14.2.
Re: #3: good QBs don’t force passes. Re #4: that’s silly.
And when you really start believing that the appeal to authority trumps actual evidence??? Come on, what’s wrong with this picture?
by The Ancient Mariner on May 29, 2008 5:39 AM PDT up reply actions
Not appeal to authority and not actual evidence
When you are talking about one thing and providing evidence of something else it doesn’t matter that it is “actual evidence,” it’s evidence for the wrong thing. And in the case of appealing to authority, in cases like this when you have 1/1000 the evidence that another group of people do, you should value the opinion of that group of people.
And good QBs who are able to complete passes in tight coverage whose team is losing and can only win by completing passes do force passes. Every single one of them do. Why shouldn’t they? It helps their team have a better chance of winning.
by stephentrapani on May 29, 2008 7:40 AM PDT up reply actions
:rolleyes:
When you respond to an actual argument by saying, “You’re wrong because Shula and Walsh say differently,” that’s an appeal to authority. When you consider that the basis for their opinions is not study but 40-year-old memories, it’s a particularly unimpressive one.
by The Ancient Mariner on May 29, 2008 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions
:wags finger:
Their opinions are still a thousand times better than misplaced stats, and BTW, the Shula quote was from 1972, and Walsh is dead so obviously he said it a long time ago.
Their opinions are valuable because they possess a thousand times more information than you and I. We value them for the same reason we value the opinions of MDs about our health. It is not appeal to authority, it is appeal to the knowledgeable.
by stephentrapani on May 29, 2008 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions
You misunderstand the appeal to authority fallacy.
When one appeals to authority they are implying that because a qualified person says something, that statement must be true. They are putting the qualifications of the person stating something above the value of the actual statement. That’s what you are doing. You are arguing that because Shula thought he was a great player then it must be true. That’s fallacious argumentation. Likewise, we don’t listen to doctors because it is a doctor saying it, we listen to doctors because they can explain why they’ve made their diagnosis in rational, scientific terms.
You’ve yet to make a single logical argument as to why Namath belongs in the Hall.
You attempted to argue my post by first calling to perfection, essentially creating a set of standards that I couldn’t possibly meet and then because I couldn’t meet those standards arguing that my claim was thus invalid.
Then appealing to authority, because Shula or Walsh said something it must be true.
Then doing whatever you could to rationalize Namath’s failings without actually providing evidence to support any of your claims. Essentially begging the question: Namath is a HOFer, so if his numbers are bad it must be the surrounding talents’ fault.
And finally, offering a feature story written in Time Magazine in 1972 as your lone evidence that Namath is deserving of the HOF. A story written midway through Namath’s career, when it was essentially impossible to determine if he was deserving of the Hall of Fame. Further, the story doesn’t support your claim. Of course it’s laudatory of Namath, but it never implies he deserves enshrinement in the HOF. In fact, it states:
He is not the perfect quarterback to begin with; his ball handling is merely ordinary, and as Minnesota Viking Fran Tarkenton points out, Namath tends to overestimate his arm and throw into a crowd. Further, every step that Namath takes away from his pass protection is an invitation to disaster. Who knows when those Achilles’ knees, girded every Sunday in steel and rubber like radial tires, will absorb the blow that ends his career? Whether Joe could have been the kind of running quarterback in the pros that he was at Alabama is moot. Namath has been forced by injuries into the obsolescent mold of such pocket passers as San Francisco’s John Brodie, Sonny Jurgensen of Washington and Joe’s own high school idol, the incomparable John Unitas.
And, with its extreme emphasis on Namath’s character rather than his play, reveals:
Unsurprisingly, Joe had become something of a living legend by the time he was 25. When sportswriters got tired of extolling his exploits on the field, they zeroed in on his between-games lifestyle. There were photos and stories about his bachelor pad on Manhattan’s East Side, which featured a white llama rug-and, purportedly, some of the unholiest debaucheries since Petronius’ last house party. No American beauty could regard her career as complete without a date with “Broadway Joe” (a bad geographical misnomer, because Namath’s favorite haunts—Dudes ‘n’ Dolls, Mister Laffs, P.J. Clarke’s—were many blocks and light years away from Broadway). He made guest appearances on television talk shows, where writers provided him with merry bedfuls of double-entendres. He starred in a Grade Y potboiler called The Last Rebel (in which he actually said out loud, “All right, men. Guns on the table!”) and a Grade Z film, C.C. Rider, with Ann-Margret.
In 1969 he also co-starred with N.F.L. Commissioner Pete Rozelle in a less amusing real-life gambling drama set in the commissioner’s office and a Manhattan pub, Bachelors III, of which Namath was part owner. Rozelle’s office had determined that hoods and gamblers were hanging out in the bar, and the commissioner ordered Namath to sell his interest. Namath replied by tearfully—and very publicly—retiring from football. If he meant to bluff, it did not work. Within two months he huddled with Rozelle and emerged after a lengthy session to announce that he would give up his interest in the bar and return to football.
Which goes to the core of my argument: Namath was a character. He was enshrined in the HOF for his larger than life legend and not his play. If he revolutionized the game in any way, it is that Namath was the NFL’s first prima donna. You think Matt Hasselbeck wouldn’t exist if not for Namath, but it’s much more likely TO or Chad Johnson wouldn’t exist if not for Namath. That’s not a legacy I would be proud of.
Now, I’m a patient person. And I knew some would disagree with the above post, but there’s taking time to write a thoughtful, supported argument and there’s trolling. Stubborn, verbose argument without the respect to support your claims is borderline trolling. I’d appreciate that if you disagree with something I say or something someone else says, that you take the time to write a reasoned supported response and not write 3,000 words of nonsense and bluster. One post, with anything close to a rational argument as to why Namath deserves to be in the Hall would have been much more valuable.
by John Morgan on May 29, 2008 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions
As I said
I was not making an argument for why Namath belongs in the Hall, I was making an argument refuting your argument. I suceeded and then some. I explained how you didn’t provide enough information for your argument. My argument was well reasoned and to date you haven’t even addressed those issues.
I never said Namath belongs in the HOF because anyone said so. I said that there are plenty of first hand accounts by knowledgeable people which provide evidence of Namath’s extraordinary ability. First hand accounts by reputable eye witnesses are, of course, valuable evidence and in this case trump the superficial stats you provided for your argument.
by stephentrapani on May 29, 2008 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions
You provided no such accounts.
You’re argument rests on three quotes by two coaches. If you don’t know that coaches lie about players, you might want to review the Alexander saga from last season.
Namath is in the Hall because a group of voters, mostly sports writers, decided he should be inducted. You never refuted my claims, you merely set an impossible criteria for evaluating Namath,
"There is no actual way to properly evaluate any player, in any sport, ever. Because there are always factors that are not controllable by the particpant."No, that’s not at all what I’m saying. Players can be properly evaluated with accuracy, but it requires more than just what shows up in historical statistics! *
Much of the information needed has to be viewed over and over on real game tape (not TV tape). Even that isn’t enough. Some of it can be seen only when you are standing close to the play with an opposing player trying to stop them, some you can see by watching on TV and on TV tape, or by hearing from those who *were there, or by talking to others who have seen real game tape, etc
These extra facts are crucial in determining whether Namath belongs in the HOF.
one the voters who inducted him into the Hall can not satisfy, and argued that should I not satisfy your criteria my argument is invalid. Refuting my claims would require you to actually argue against my arguments, not appoint yourself arbitrator of what qualifies a player for the Hall. Every other HOF quarterback either had standout statistical achievements or played for a dynasty. Namath satisfies neither. His numbers were well behind his contemporaries. His teams were consistently bad. Saying statistics are superficial does not make them so. Your arguments are thin and abusive and you’ve provided NO counterargument. You’ve made far fetched claims and provided improper, fallacious or speculative (at best) evidence to back them. You’re inconsistent in your argument and seemingly unaware of what you’ve said. Whenever someone counters your argument, you revise it to elude refutation. If you look below you’ll see that you have provided an attempt at an argument as to why Namath should be in the Hall , yet you say above “As I said I was not making an argument for why Namath belongs in the Hall.” Truth is a higher value than being right. You don’t have to agree with me, but unless you substantiate your arguments, are consistent with your arguments and provide logical conclusions from rational evidence, you are offering nothing to this site and being little more than a troll.
I’m done here. Please heed my requests.
Here is my argument in a nutshell
You made the argument that Namath doesn’t belong in the Hall due to X, Y, and Z.
I responded that X, Y, and Z is not enough to make that argument, A, B, C and D are also important and need to be addressed. I explained why by giving some examples of A, B, C, and D for you to address.
Your responded that A and B are impossible for you to address therefore I am a troll. You weakly addressed C and ignored D. You posed some quotes about a few of Namath’s weaknesses.
You haven’t provided enough information to conclude that Namath doesn’t belong in the HOF. You haven’t even addressed my argument that A, B, C and D are important toward evaluating a QB.
by stephentrapani on May 29, 2008 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually, to be consistent
your standards would make any sort of evaluation, let alone any sort of conclusions, impossible, because no one could meet those standards; therefore, despite your denials, your position boils down to “There is no actual way to properly evaluate any player, in any sport, ever. Because there are always factors that are not controllable by the particpant.”
It’s also, in a word, ludicrous. The fact that we cannot evaluate players with 100% certainty doesn’t mean we can’t evaluate them with reasonable certainty; and for you to attack that sort of evaluation as insufficient, which is what you’re doing, is simply unreasonable.
by The Ancient Mariner on May 29, 2008 8:14 PM PDT up reply actions
No one is talking about certainty
All of my standards can easily be met by any of the coaches and personnel on the sidelines who also have access to game tape.
You keep going back to your strawman because you must know that evaluating a player purely from historical stats, without ever seeing them play is ludicrous. If any team anywhere tried to acquire players scouting them that way they would be laughed out of whatever league they were in. It can’t be done. You’ll be wrong more often than not.
Meanwhile us fans have to get our information, the scouting, second hand. I know it’s a big letdown that we can’t be world class experts on the NFL, but that’s just the way it is. If you listen to the right insiders and observe carefully the things we can see you can discern a lot, but forget about being an expert. It can’t be done from where we sit.
by stephentrapani on May 29, 2008 10:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually, the strawman here is yours
since no one here has ever suggested “evaluating a player purely from historical stats.” I certainly did nothing of the sort. (All I did was point out that “the most accurate quarterback ever” didn’t produce results that bespeak any special degre of accuracy. Yes, making that point via direct comparison with the likes of Unitas, Hadl and Lamonica is probably more relevant, if duller; so sue me, I went for contrast instead.) And yes, we’re exactly talking about certainty, and the position you’ve taken regarding what’s necessary to evaluate a player properly allows for only one of two conclusions:
a) you’re knowingly setting standards which cannot be reasonably met; or,
b) you’re an idiot.
I’ve been concluding a) out of a desire to give you the benefit of the doubt; you accuse me of setting up a strawman. Fine—I’ll shift to b), and ignore you accordingly.
by The Ancient Mariner on May 29, 2008 11:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Just one more point
In the interest of truth and to make this thread complete, I just wanted to provide one more example of stats not telling the story. The following point was made about Namath:
“In the first season he missed significant time, 1970, his backup, Al Woodall, posted a better completion percentage, touchdown percentage, interception percentage, quarterback rating and adjusted yards per attempt. In 1973, Woodall nearly duplicated the feat, still posting a better touchdown percentage and interception percentage than Namath. Woodall played 5 seasons and made 19 starts in his entire career, all with the Jets. He was a nobody, a scrub, a backup. Namath’s numbers, with the exact same surrounding talent, should have dwarfed Woodall’s. But they didn’t, because for the majority of his career, Namath was not that good.”
These ‘70 and ‘73 stats were cherry picked to try to make the point that Namath was not all that good. Watch what happens when I do the same thing with two quarterbacks most people here have watched extensively:
In 2006, the first season Matt Hasselbeck missed significant time, his backup Seneca Wallace posted a better completion percentage and better quarterback rating. Wallace has made four starts in his career and is a nobody, a scrub. Hasselbeck’s numbers, with the exact same surrounding talent, should have dwarfed Wallace’s. But they didn’t, because for the majority of his career, Hasselbeck was not that good.
For someone who hasn’t seen these two perform the above paragraph makes perfect sense, but for those of us who have seen both of them play it is completely ridiculous. There are many reasons Wallace outperformed Hasselbeck statwise and they certainly don’t translate into out performing him on the field. Concluding that Hasselbeck is not much better than Wallace is similarly ludicrous. See my point about stats?
by stephentrapani on Jun 2, 2008 7:46 AM PDT up reply actions
PPS
Anyone who wants to understand why Namath is in the Hall and why Morgan is wrong, I recommend:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,906587-1,00.html
by stephentrapani on May 27, 2008 11:11 PM PDT reply actions
just for the record
Bill Walsh said Rick Mirer was the next Joe Montana. Walsh was a great coach, but not everything he says is gold.
FREE JEREMY REED!!

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