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Can we stop calling our D 'elite' now?

Tiny by Kekoa16 on

Seriously, we just gave up 30 points in regular time to the SF 49rs... at what point do we call this what it is?

We lose the flip in overtime and we can't stop the 49rs offense from driving to our 20 from their own 20?  What part of this defense is 'elite'?

Our offense did not leave them out on the field overly long, we don't have significant injuries on the defense- I love this website but at what point do we start getting real and admit this is an average defense with an injury depleted offense?

 

 

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the D didn't give up a INT returned for TD...that's 23 points

and I’m pretty sure that Deon Grant intercepted the ball in the end zone…

The D substantively gave up 16 points and the secondary was abused by J.T O’Sullivan. We don’t know if it’s just a case of an unknown guy emerging because no one has game film on him. It’s not a great start but with 14 games left it’s also rather early to discard preseason assumptions.

by Will Kier on Sep 14, 2008 5:01 PM PDT   0 recs

Well

I don’t entirely disagree with you. Jennings and Wilson committed WAY too many penalties…giving the 49ers lots of extra field and prolonged possessions. We have a unit that should be elite but the rest of the team isn’t set up right to make them look like it.

And unfortunately I think Martz found a good one in DET and brought him with to SF. With a mediocre QB the 49ers still lose that game.

by cashless on Sep 14, 2008 5:07 PM PDT   0 recs

2 INT's led to 2 TD's

But our Safeties did play a terrible game.

You may gain some yards on the ground, but eventually Lofa will end up biting you in the ass.

by Scruffy Lefty on Sep 14, 2008 5:07 PM PDT   0 recs

My point is- an elite defense doesn’t do these things, they shut offenses down. The penalties, the obvious pass coverage issues, (jennings), speaks of an average defense, not an elite one. Jennings has been exposed twice in two games. Now, our run defense was excellent- but an elite defense does both pass and run well.

by Kekoa16 on Sep 14, 2008 5:33 PM PDT   0 recs

Why does everyone blame Jennings?

A Safety is suppose to help over the top on so many of those completions.

You may gain some yards on the ground, but eventually Lofa will end up biting you in the ass.

by Scruffy Lefty on Sep 14, 2008 5:43 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Oh yeah and isaac bruce lives to kill the hawks.

379 in his last 5 games against us. Maybe someone should jam him every time?

by michaelfox99 on Sep 14, 2008 5:39 PM PDT   0 recs

I’m ‘bitching and moaning’ about the fact that everyone over values the defense. I don’t care who’s fault it is, I just want to hear the end of the Seahawks defense is ‘all that and a bag of chips’. They aren’t. They are simply better than the offense which is middle of the road at best.

Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE THE HAWKS, but I hate seeing this over-infalted estimation of their abilities. On days like today, it is even more discouraging than admitting the truth.

by Kekoa16 on Sep 14, 2008 6:02 PM PDT   0 recs

Your panicking over two games

and assessing all points scored against the team to the defense. Cool off and come back.

by BrianL on Sep 14, 2008 6:03 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

But you are wrong.

They have an inconsistency at about the 12 yard over the middle Cover 1. That will get fixed. It’s not like we have the defense of the Dolphins, Bengals, heck we have a better defense than the team we played today.

No one overvalues it. It is a good defense with a shitty Brian Russell.

XBOX live gamertag: BANE509...I would die tonight for my beliefs.

by Christian on Sep 14, 2008 6:08 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

and a shitty arbitrary coaching decision

called the “prevent defense”

thanks, john marshall.

by Will Kier on Sep 14, 2008 6:11 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

We're not an 'Elite' defense outside of a fan-based blog

We can be good, should be better than average, will get a lot of sacks and highlight film time, from time to time shut down an offense but this defense does not win games on its own, and elite defenses win games when the team needs it. An elite defense does that.

by BayMariner on Sep 15, 2008 6:36 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

BrianL-

JT O’Who? 20 for 32, 321 yards and a touchdown… that wasn’t the offense or special team’s fault. I’m cool as a polar bears hind end on ice- maybe you need a reality check.

by Kekoa16 on Sep 14, 2008 6:08 PM PDT   0 recs

Stop.

Or you will be getting a time-out.

XBOX live gamertag: BANE509...I would die tonight for my beliefs.

by Christian on Sep 14, 2008 6:09 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Sure, ignore the 8 sacks.

John, and most everyone else already, has clearly pointed to Brian Russell as the weak link. The safety position is our problem on defense, nothing else. How can you blame an entire defense for one position’s weakness. The Hawks get the safety position worked out, the defense becomes elite.

by Wilder. on Sep 14, 2008 7:53 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I just need to know: is it allowable to say that this defense isn't elite around here?

The d-line is pretty good. Nothing wrong with the DTs and ends. But it’s starting to seem like wishcasting to put all of the problems on to one person on the defense.
Look, Russell had a bad game. But he wasn’t alone. Kelly Jennings has just come off his second straight game of not covering anyone, and we can talk about Russell’s role in magnifying that issue, but it’s an issue, Russell or no Russell.

NO good defense gives up 33 to SF. It just won’t work to put it all on one guy. You can’t give up 30+ in two straight weeks to sub-par offenses and say that it’s Brian Russell’s fault. Sorry.

by marc w on Sep 14, 2008 10:41 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Kelly Jennings needs help over the top, he can't do it all by himself.

This is a great defense that happens to have a shitty safety in Russell.

by BrianL on Sep 14, 2008 10:44 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

So it's Russell, 100% is it?

That seems odd. What do you do with red zone D, when safety coverage deep isn’t so important? Is Russell still fucking things up, in ways we can’t yet fathom?

 Russell had a bad game, it’s true. But this is 2 games now where Jennings couldn’t cover his man short OR long. Trufant was great in week one, but poor today.

Let me ask this: if this WASN’T a great defense, when will you know? In week 14, or when Russell’s benched?

by marc w on Sep 14, 2008 10:54 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

jennings had a few GREAT swats today

I was the poor bastard that had Tom Brady on my Field Gulls fantasy football team.

by Chickadee on Sep 14, 2008 11:47 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Playing with Russell at Safety

is like having Carlos Silva pitch everyday.

Everytime Jennings got beat this week and last week, Russell was suppose to be there to give over the top help. And everytime Russell is 15 yards late to the party and normally behind the play.

You may gain some yards on the ground, but eventually Lofa will end up biting you in the ass.

by Scruffy Lefty on Sep 15, 2008 7:36 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

So are you saying that...

just because Jennings was the closest to the play doesn’t mean he was the guy who blew it… Wow, that’s a novel concept.

by PascoJoe on Sep 15, 2008 10:25 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Playing with Russell at Safety

Is more like playing Miguel Cairo and Jose Vidro every day… which, sadly, the Mariners actually did.

by PascoJoe on Sep 15, 2008 10:29 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Go back to the Buffalo game

Jennings is on Robert Royal, a tight end, with deep coverage provided by Deon Grant.

by marc w on Sep 15, 2008 10:55 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Ya and the was the one play where we actually had good coverage

Both Grant and Jennings were in position to make the play. But Royal took the hit from Grant and just won the battle by holding onto the ball.

You may gain some yards on the ground, but eventually Lofa will end up biting you in the ass.

by Scruffy Lefty on Sep 15, 2008 11:01 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

that not the

You may gain some yards on the ground, but eventually Lofa will end up biting you in the ass.

by Scruffy Lefty on Sep 15, 2008 11:01 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You know

it would be awesome to see John write up an article about just what a safety does on the field. This seems to be a misunderstood topic amongst fans.

by BrianL on Sep 15, 2008 11:08 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Well thats whats hard

There is a grey area on safety play. Coaches might be asking the player to do something that is unusual and depending on the scheme he might be right where he is supposed to.

Also there is the annoyance that on TV we can’t see how deep the Safety is when the play starts.

But NFL.com had the sunday night game online streaming with 5 different camera angles. One being a overhead of the entire field. It would be nice to get that in normal broadcasts.

You may gain some yards on the ground, but eventually Lofa will end up biting you in the ass.

by Scruffy Lefty on Sep 15, 2008 11:12 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I'd love an MLB.tv like subscription service that features these angles.

Still, even a basic primer on safety play would be nice.

by BrianL on Sep 15, 2008 11:15 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

So are we able to get video of that overhead camera?

That would be great, but I don’t know if there’s an equivalent of mlb.tv that could work here; does DirecTV do online broadcasts as well?

by marc w on Sep 15, 2008 11:16 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I've seen it used on ESPN 2 sometimes during college

It would be a nice feature for DirectTV to pick up on. Or for NFL.com to keep using.

As for getting the footage that the teams use. I could try to get a video job with the Hawks and sneak that stuff onto the internet :)

You may gain some yards on the ground, but eventually Lofa will end up biting you in the ass.

by Scruffy Lefty on Sep 15, 2008 11:24 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah, ESPN occasionally ran that on ESPN360

and, for some bowl games, ESPN Classic, but it was only part of the screen. I’d just love to get screen caps of the occasional replay as well – they’ll often use wide angles on replays of long pass plays, so you get an idea of where the safeties start out, but then you’ve got selection bias issues to contend with.

Anyway, someone’s gotta have a tv card and at least the ability to watch these games on the computer, right? Don’t you have several terabytes of storage, BrianL?

by marc w on Sep 15, 2008 11:28 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

2.5 TB, and that's for my pirated television.

Really, it’s not too hard to come by several TB of storage now. Fry’s regularly sells Seagate Barracuda 1TB drives for about $179 a piece.

by BrianL on Sep 15, 2008 11:33 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I have 10 TB at work

But I still need to get some drives for home. But buying a house has kind of put a dent in my wallet.

You may gain some yards on the ground, but eventually Lofa will end up biting you in the ass.

by Scruffy Lefty on Sep 15, 2008 11:46 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree that Grant made a decent play on the ball and made a great hit

But Jennings wasn’t in position to make a play – he was beat off the line and was sprinting to catch up.
Grant can probably be forgiven there for thinking that a CB could stay with a TE in coverage.

by marc w on Sep 15, 2008 11:14 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I think it was more Jennings just being out sized

he was on his hip but just couldn’t get his arms around. But I will coincide that this was a play that I would of liked him to make a better play on and knock that ball down.

You may gain some yards on the ground, but eventually Lofa will end up biting you in the ass.

by Scruffy Lefty on Sep 15, 2008 11:22 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

This is where I'd love to see the replay again

To me, Royal simply beat him. If it was a jump-ball, or a situation where Jennings couldn’t get around, that’s one thing. But it was simply a deep skinny post with the ball thrown on a line – it was a speed route, and a tight end beat Jennings to the ball. You can’t have that happen. That Buffalo even ran that play, or targeted Royal on that play, is telling.

by marc w on Sep 15, 2008 11:31 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I need to come up with system to store of these highlights

Something to work on for me.

You may gain some yards on the ground, but eventually Lofa will end up biting you in the ass.

by Scruffy Lefty on Sep 15, 2008 11:48 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It is overwhelming to say that a D that's given up 30+ in back to back weeks is perhaps not elite?

I’m new here, i need to know what’s kosher: is it okay to think that maybe this defense isn’t so great? Swap out Russell for insert-your-favorite-safety and maybe it gets to above average, but c’mon…

by marc w on Sep 14, 2008 10:51 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Don't be a dick, like the author of this fanpost was.

The defense has flaws on deep routes, but it is still an above average defense.

Just remember that the defense didn’t give up all 33 points today.

by BrianL on Sep 14, 2008 10:59 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Posts like this that come ten seconds after a loss and offer nothing substantive annoy the hell out of me.

We know the D struggled; we all watched the game. I’m in agreement that the defense has been a disappointment so far this year, I just hate hate hate reactionary stuff like. If you’ve got a point to make, sit on it for a little while, come up with something slightly more enlightening than “zomg we gave up 30 pts to the 49ers we suck” before you throw up a FanPost.

This is, in large part, the same defense the Seahawks were running out there last season. I’m much more comfortable assuming that their performance last year is more indicative of their true ability than two games (that have been really bizarre) this year.

J.K.L.

by acblue on Sep 15, 2008 12:33 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Thank God

some perspective in reality. Truth is, we ‘play’ Brian Russell, we will continue to ‘play’ Brian Russell. Kelly Jennings has not shown much, Babs “get’s burned” playing saftey, Wilson is young… on and on it goes.

Does it mean I am down on the Seahawks. No.

Does it mean I am negative about our chances. No.

Does it mean that I feel that this site is becoming lost in denial and completely inane in regards to “what is”… Yes

We, today, on paper, and on the field, are a mediocre football team.

Will we stay that way… WHO KNOWS!

This is a game. No amount of numbers crunching, matchup analysis, or hunches can account for the game being played. Boise State can tell you something about that.

Finally, if people cannot speak freely about their thoughts, without swearing, without critizing others blogging as well… then shut me down.

I love this site. John’s insights are wonderful. But I can surely enjoy the posts without having access to post my own…

Why post your thoughts when you are really only to post “what should be…” as opposed to “What is”?

Great post, Kekoa… hopefully you won’t get banned.

It is what it is...

by kidder95 on Sep 15, 2008 12:28 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Last thought

This defense has given up in its last three games (and yes, ST counts for defense):

GB – 42
Buf – 24
SF – 33

All facts. Will it keep us from the Super Bowl… probably not.

Does it mean we are not an elite defense right now… yes.

I look forward to our rapid improvement… and thank everyone for their awesome love of this game.

It is what it is...

by kidder95 on Sep 15, 2008 12:31 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

No special teams does not count for defense.

I don’t see why this is so hard for you to understand.

by BrianL on Sep 15, 2008 12:31 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

No, this is not a great post.

It’s reactionary bullshit, and you’re not helping.

This is a great post.

by BrianL on Sep 15, 2008 12:31 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

And here's why the post I linked to is great

it facilitates discussion. This post just encourages pointless panicking.

by BrianL on Sep 15, 2008 12:35 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

To be a fan

is to react to what is… there is nothing negative in this post:

The numbers bear it out… we are not elite. Ask John to run the 3rd down defense numbers the past 2 years. Enough said.

If I am wrong, I will gladly let it be, and just read.

I enjoy posting… but when others are throwing f bombs and this person brings a perspective, in emotion or no… how is that different than ripping Brian Russell when in fact a defense has to “Play as One”

Whose the real critique?

It is what it is...

by kidder95 on Sep 15, 2008 12:35 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

There was a frontpage ultimatum by John

calling for the end of this panicked, reactionary garbage.

by BrianL on Sep 15, 2008 12:37 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

And yes this post is extraordinarily negative and otherwise useless.

The post I linked to demonstrates how a post like this should be handled.

by BrianL on Sep 15, 2008 12:37 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

What?!!?

by Kekoa16 on Sep 14, 2008 6:28 PM PDT   0 recs

Never mind. Thank you for unblocking me. I hope we do better next week.

by Kekoa16 on Sep 14, 2008 6:29 PM PDT   0 recs

The subject line is your friend.

Brian Russell, on the other hand, is not.

by Benne on Sep 14, 2008 10:33 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

reply button is more your friend

You may gain some yards on the ground, but eventually Lofa will end up biting you in the ass.

by Scruffy Lefty on Sep 15, 2008 7:36 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

D

Our defense is very, very good. I’ll reserve usage of the word “elite” because I’m afraid elitism will lose the presidential election. But we’re very, very good, albeit extremely flawed in the downfield, towards-the-middle pass coverage. That and the turnovers (and one crock of a penalty) was the perfect storm this afternoon.

I was having full confidence in our defense until they just got tired in the last quarter, and we were only in that vulnerable position because of mistakes, mistakes, mistakes.

--Shrug
Field Gulls - The SBN Seattle Seahawks Blog

by Shrug on Sep 14, 2008 10:37 PM PDT   0 recs

WTF?

Political reference outta left field, or right, whatever

I was the poor bastard that had Tom Brady on my Field Gulls fantasy football team.

by Chickadee on Sep 14, 2008 11:49 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Meh. It's Shrug.

XBOX live gamertag: BANE509...I would die tonight for my beliefs.

by Christian on Sep 15, 2008 9:36 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I really hoped this type of thing was not going to happen again.

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on Sep 15, 2008 12:22 AM PDT   0 recs

Cover 1 vs. Mixed Zone

We were having success in creating pressure with 4 and 5 man pass rushes (and sometimes 6 or 7), yet where were the INTs? Yes, there was the one in the end zone.

There had to be way more opportunities than we created for the times SF put it in the air. What about a mixed zone? Cover three? Zone blitz? Spy?

Can we get back to some analysis? I don’t have Tivo so I can’t review the debacle. Any info greatly appreciated.

by Birdfeeder on Sep 15, 2008 5:49 AM PDT   0 recs

I disagree with this fanpost

The special teams has given up a punt return TD and the offense has given up an interception TD. The punt and kickoff coverage and distance for punts has been terrible and the offense has given up too many turnovers, putting the defense in tough spots. The defense still dominated the line of scrimmage against the 49ers, put a lot of pressure on JT and slowed down Gore substantially. The deep balls hurt though.

But the defense as a whole is still elite… at least that’s the way I’m playing it on my fantasy team… not that anyone cares about that.

by PascoJoe on Sep 15, 2008 10:23 AM PDT   0 recs

This is not LL

I care about your fantasy team :)

You may gain some yards on the ground, but eventually Lofa will end up biting you in the ass.

by Scruffy Lefty on Sep 15, 2008 10:37 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Do you care about my fantasy team?

I’m 0-2! YAY!

I was the poor bastard that had Tom Brady on my Field Gulls fantasy football team.

by Chickadee on Sep 15, 2008 12:44 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You only care about my fantasy team...

because my fantasy team will throttle your fantasy team next week.

by PascoJoe on Sep 15, 2008 1:28 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

And to tie it back into the Seahawks

My team will beat your fantasy team on the strength of the Seahawk defense.

by PascoJoe on Sep 15, 2008 1:30 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Oops

That’s my other league. I didn’t grab the Seahawk D in this one, but I wish I had.

by PascoJoe on Sep 15, 2008 1:32 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Its on

You may gain some yards on the ground, but eventually Lofa will end up biting you in the ass.

by Scruffy Lefty on Sep 15, 2008 1:41 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I did,

so far there’s been nothing that’s made me give it 3 cheers on paper.

I was the poor bastard that had Tom Brady on my Field Gulls fantasy football team.

by Chickadee on Sep 15, 2008 1:51 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It's not a matter of being elite as it is being reliable in the clutch IMO

We could very well be the worst in the league at defending 3rd down passes with Marshall’s patented “Leave the middle of the field open” scheme.

How many times has a defense like Seattle dominated the game for the most part, only to be broken down? The Cleveland game and the 49ers game are perfect examples on this.

The inability to be reliable in crunch time (especially on the road) makes this a defense that is not quite ready to be among the league’s elite.

Obviously my signature will tell you the opposite of what will actually happen. So 49ers 43 Seahawks 9.

by SSreporters on Sep 16, 2008 1:03 PM PDT   0 recs

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