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When Need Matters

This FanPost by diehard82 inspires an interesting argument. When does need cut into a player's maximum value? diehard82 proposes Seattle take Malcolm Jenkins with the fourth overall pick. Jenkins is an excellent prospect. He has a broad base of skills and really no single weakness. He's produced for four seasons at a top program, starting three. He's impressively toolsy and deceptively young, turning 21 this last December. He has the size, build and man up strength to play in a Tampa 2, and the zone and run support skills to excel.

But there's a flaw in Seattle signing Jenkins.

Seattle ran its base 4-3 on 53.6% of all plays. It ran some kind of nickel on 22.7% of all plays. It ran some kind of dime on 20% of all plays. For the sake of ease, and to account for an upswing should Seattle win more next season, we'll slice that 50/25/25.

Here's what that means:

Seattle's starting cornerbacks played in 100% of all plays.

Seattle's nickelback played in 50% of all plays.

Seattle's dime back played in 25% of all plays.

If we were to create a simple system, not account for position scarcity or leverage, we could say a starting cornerback's max value is 100, nickel 50 and dime 25. If Seattle adds Jenkins and Jenkins starts, his potential value is 100, but Josh Wilson's ceiling drops to 50 and Kelly Jennings ceiling drops to 25. Let's say for the 2008 season, Marcus Trufant was worth 80, Wilson was worth 50 and Jennings was worth 10. Let's say, assuming each continues to start at their current position, Trufant's value is steady--he's worth 80. Let's say Wilson's value is as much as 80 and as low as 40 and Jennings value is as much 40 and as little as 20. Jennings replaced Wilson in nickel formations allowing Wilson to play nickel and Jennings to play right cornerback. In this capacity, he played pretty well. We'll be conservative with Hobbs, say he's worth 5 to 15.

So, Seattle's 2009 secondary is worth as much 215 and as little as 145. The low end is a virtual repeat of 2008. The average would be 180.

But what if Seattle drafts Malcolm Jenkins? Let's say Jenkins is sensational. He's straight out 60 to 80. Bear in mind, that means Jenkins could be in his rookie season as good as Trufant at his peak. It also assumes that Jenkins plays at least above average as a rookie. But Wilson is shoved down to nickel so his value is capped at 50. Let's say his value is 30 to 50, and that's aggressive, meaning Wilson would either be above average or the best nickelback imaginable. Finally, Jennings, assuming he even wins the spot over Hobbs, which I doubt he would, would be worth 5 to 15. Jennings is not designed to play dime.

Seattle's new 2009 secondary could be worth as much 225 and as little as 185. You're certainly reducing some risk. The average would be 200.

You can see that while you're removing some risk and slightly increasing the upside, the expected returns are not that great. Some of the improvement from Wilson to Jenkins is eaten up by Wilson's lost playing time, Jennings' lost playing time and Jennings moving to position he's not well suited for. These are theoretical units of value, but the logic holds. At some point, a player's individual value is eaten up by the team's lack of need for his talent.

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It's a shame Kenny Jennings is looks like a twig out there.

Because even if his coverage skills improve, I doubt opposing quarterbacks will hesistate to throw at him.

by Fearless Frog on Jan 16, 2009 1:29 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

He was targetted less often than Trufant in 2007

His problem is not his scrawniness, it’s his lack of ball skills.

by John Morgan on Jan 16, 2009 1:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Doesn't that have to do with the fact that he was benched after week 2? o_o;

Also, I sounded like a drunk man up there. ‘Kenny Jennings is looks’? The hell, my bad.

by Fearless Frog on Jan 16, 2009 7:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, 2007.

Good god, nevermind me. I’m hungry.

by Fearless Frog on Jan 16, 2009 7:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Or Wilson?

I know he’s small, but so is that guy on the Ravens (not Ed Reed), and Bob Sanders isn’t exactly Shaq either, though he is ‘stout’.

by LantermanC on Jan 16, 2009 1:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

John, my brain is hurting

That was a very interesting and logical approach to evaluating the potential added value of Jenkins on the existing roster. But, with all due respect, I think you are missing a couple other logical points. One, we have to be prepared for injury. It happens. Second, improving the effectiveness of the secondary by 20 points (not 20%), on a defense that ranked 28th in pass defense, may vault it into the top 10. It could mean the difference between a 7-9 season and an 11-5 season. There is no way to know since there is no way to correlate your values to results. Flattered that my fan post was worthy of your evaluation, nonetheless. It was intended to make people think.

At the end of the day, I suspect you could do the same evaluation for every position of need and arrive at virtually the same conclusion. While I am a Crabtree fan, and would be excited to see him on the team, I doubt Ruskell will go that way, particularly in a draft where there are 6-7 other very good WR prospects. So, what IS the lowest risk choice? I still think it’s Jenkins. He’s big, fast, and could start opposite Trufant. If we retain Hill, the only other position where a very talented rookie could start would be WR, DE or DT. We spent a 1st round pick on Jackson last year, so doubt we’ll go back to the DE well again. Jennings was 3 years ago, so it’s time to fix the error. He’s simply not tall enough or talented enough to be our starting corner. I don’t see any DT’s worthy of a #4 pick. If Monroe fell to us, we could make that work. He could start at guard alongside Jones and be his eventual replacement. I’m not convinced Andre Smith or the other elite tackles would be any better at guard than Wahle and Sims/Wrotto. And we are already heavily invested in Locklear. AND Ruskell is vocal about believing O-line can be built from 3r and 4th round picks.

by diehard82 on Jan 16, 2009 1:48 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Is Jenkins a #4 pick?

Or is he someone we could trade back to pick #8 and still get?
I don’t recall very many cornerbacks taken in the top 7.

by LantermanC on Jan 16, 2009 1:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

PACMAN JONES! #6! RACK IT UP

I DRINK YOUR MILKSHAKE!!! I DRINK IT UP!!

by abender20 on Jan 16, 2009 1:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Bust.

and part of that was punt returning I think, right?

by LantermanC on Jan 16, 2009 1:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with this analysis.

To put it succinctly, although Jenkins would certainly improve our secondary-and the secondary was one of our weaknesses this past season-the pick doesn’t make sense. The reason is related to why we are in this situation in the first place. Are we nearly a contender or not? There a lot of positions on our roster that leave something to be desired. We are already paying out a lot of salary so I suspect the players we bring in in FA will roughly equal what we will lose in FA. We only have 6 draft picks, 4 that could realistically contribute next year at best. This means we need to get more out of what we have. Some of that is coaching, and some of that is just hoping that last year was an aberration for a lot of these guys.

Yes diehard82, you could make the same argument for every position on the team, except for safety. A safety has to be extremely special to be worth a #4 pick and there are none like that this year. Jenkins ability to play safety should not be confused with him being a top safety prospect. A lot of his talents would be wasted playing safety, as he is adept at playing corner, a much more nuanced position than safety.

by michaelfox99 on Jan 16, 2009 1:55 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm. You must have meant someone else

I never suggested Jenkins at safety. I suggested he play his natural position, the other corner opposite Trufant, and that we pick up a safety in round 2 or 3.

by diehard82 on Jan 16, 2009 9:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

nope.

I meant you. You said you could make the same argument for every position. This is true, except at safety where we are very thin. It was someone else who said Jenkins at S.

Either way, I agree with John and never thought we should take Jenkins at #4. We are actually already three deep at competent corner with Hobbs another potential piece that could backup at nickle or dime, Babineaux too. We need to get more out of what we have already across the roster, especially at corner. I think the #4 pick has to be an OT, QB, or Crabtree.

by michaelfox99 on Jan 17, 2009 3:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Couldn't we move one of them to safety

and trade BR?

I’m sure we’ll get atleast a 3rd rounder for his grit, and a 2nd rounder for his vetereness.

by GarethLewin on Jan 16, 2009 5:50 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Would one of them converted to safety

be that much better than someone we could get in the 3rd round? Theres been a lot of talk about potentially moving Wilson to safety, what would his value be there?

by Nate Dogg on Jan 16, 2009 6:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

There are also cap consequences & roster flexibility to consider.

We’re playing with fire at #4, whiffing on the pick could have disastrous cap consequences. So IMO it’s best to go with the Safest/BPA regardless of need or position, and then worrying about sorting out the rest of the roster. And IMO, from that perspective, Jenkins makes a lot of sense.

The past 3 contracts handed out at the #4 spot have been: 6yr/$60M (McFadden) 6yr/$42M (Adams) and 6yr/$37.5M (Ferguson). That McFadden contract really puts us in a bind (curse Oakland for throwing around $$$)

Anyway, if you figure that you’re going to be paying the #4 pick the equivalent of a Pro-Bowl level starter’s salary … then it makes sense to draft the one player that you think is the safest bet to become that Pro-Bowl level starter – and then balance that against how you have our cap structured and which positions are deemed worthy of premium contracts (usually the skill positions).

Yeah, it would reduce Jennings & Wilson’s overall value …. but comparatively those guys make chump change. They are both due o be FA’s at the same time, in ‘11. With Jenkins on board, the team could afford to eat Jennings’ contract – by either flipping him to acquire a mid round pick or swap him for some other team’s struggling prospect (similar to how we turned Boulware into Babin)

The team has now locked up a top-notch CB tandem for 5-6 years with Wilson at a good price for a Nickel.

by jteckmann on Jan 16, 2009 6:11 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

To me, Crabtree is the safest bet, unless he has some injury concerns I know not of.

2 time Biletnikoff (sp?) winner speaks volumes. Has the perfect skillset for Hass’ tendencies. Won’t struggle learning system under simplified offense. High character guy.

by Fearless Frog on Jan 16, 2009 7:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I definitely agree with you

I’m just hope he lasts till #4.

by jteckmann on Jan 16, 2009 8:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He will

I can almost guarantee it. If you really want Crabtree (personally I’m very divided on the issue, and I’m always extremely skeptical of taking a WR in the 1st round) I think the most positive scenario (and very possible, although maybe not likely) is Seattle trading back and grabbing him. Really, I’ve become more and more convinced that the best situation is if Seattle can trade back and grab whatever elite talent is left. Cheaper, nets us extra picks, and still get an elite player (hopefully) that we could have taken at 4th but instead took at 8th (or wherever, just an example).

by Fear on Jan 16, 2009 8:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Absurd athleticism, mainly.

I know its somewhat of a weak correlation, but when Mike Williams was at USC, NOBODY thought he would flame out as much as he did. They’ve also got similar body shapes (Williams wasn’t fat, just large and strong), even though Williams is a couple inches taller I think.

by SeaTownBlueDevil on Jan 17, 2009 1:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

hmmm

- a couple thoughts, first i don’t think anyone considers the west coast a ‘simplified offense.’ more than most college offenses it relies on timing, precise routes, and silent check-on/offs based on reading the defense. many wrs struggle picking it up.
- i don’t think a WR is ever the safest bet for a first round pick, and here’s why: a total bust left tackle can still turn out to be a solid (but overpaid) left guard or right tackle, IE Robert Gallery. On the other hand when a WR busts he is often out of football or relegated to 4-wide formations and special teams.

watching larry fitzgerald today has gotten me real pumped on getting a top flight WR, and I’m NOT saying we shouldn’t draft crabtree, but its important to realize that taking a WR in the top 5 (or top 15) is almost never the safest pick.

by cro-mag! on Jan 18, 2009 1:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

We aren't running Holmgren's WCO anymore.

Greg Knapp is running the offense and he’s more dedicated in establishing the run first. I expect most passing will come out of playaction.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jan 21, 2009 11:34 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's probably just my Gator bias

But I’m not sure about Jenkins. He seems like an excellent prospect, but there is just the nagging doubt about the ability of some of these “big talent” guys from the Big Ten. Colt McCoy threw for over 400 yards against Ohio State in the Fiesta Bowl. Sanchez threw 4 touchdowns against them in September. The rest of their schedule was filled with cannon fodder. I think that the we should bring in a FA safety and corner, and use our pick on either an offensive weapon or a lineman that can actually block.

It's great to be a Florida Gator!

by Wayward Llama on Jan 16, 2009 8:54 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Forest for trees...

This is very interesting and seems like a sound analysis.

But… couldn’t you do this for most positions? Greater talent pushes aside lesser talent, cutting into the impact of that new, greater talent by subtracting what was “decent” talent from the equation. With receiver, for example, drafting a #1 or #2 receiver bumps everyone behind him back a rank and nets you less playing time out of your other up-and-coming guys. Aside from the numbers you assign here, what’s the revelation?

by nucleard on Jan 17, 2009 2:53 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I think Wilson and Jenning being good went unsaid

So yes this happens at every position but not every position has that kind of young talent. Thats assuming that Jennings turd of a season was an aberration. Theres also the fact that playing time for nickel and dime corners is more definite than at other positions, so theres a measurable cap in value from dropping Wilson and Jennings down a peg.

by Nate Dogg on Jan 17, 2009 3:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

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