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Replacing Leroy Hill with a Platoon

Instead of doling out big money for Leroy Hill or a free agent, or spending a valuable draft pick, I think Seattle should replace Hill with a linebacker platoon. David Hawthorne could play first down and running downs and Will Herring could play in obvious passing downs.

Will Herring

School: Auburn

49 Consecutive starts. Played three seasons at free safety, but his senior season at outside linebacker.

Stats: 8 interceptions, 9 solo and 6 assisted tackles for a loss, 2 sacks, 2 forced fumbles, 27 YPC

Measurables:

Height: 6025

Weight: 229

40 Yrd Dash: 4.57

20 Yrd Dash: 2.62

10 Yrd Dash: 1.55

225 Lb. Bench Reps: 18

Vertical Jump: 35

Broad Jump: 10'5"

20 Yrd Shuttle: 3.99

3-Cone Drill: 6.56

David Hawthorne

School: Texas Christian

35 consecutive starts.

Stats: 17 solo and 6 assisted tackles for a loss, 9.5 sacks (5 his senior season), 1 interception.

Measurables:

Height: 6000

Weight: 240

40 Yrd Dash: 4.69

20 Yrd Dash: 2.71

10 Yrd Dash: 1.60

225 Lb. Bench Reps: 20

Vertical Jump: 37 1/2

Broad Jump: 08'10"

20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.45

3-Cone Drill: 7.27

The team would probably take a hit run stopping, but improve its pass defense and at a fraction of the cost.

2 recs  |  Comment 67 comments |

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Where would you rather the team spend the money?

WR with Housh? Defensive line?

Are they any FA O-linemen worth worrying about this year?

Oo, oo! I know, we’ll get a third kicker! Rackers, ftw!

by jimmimoose on Jan 28, 2009 3:27 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

SECRET PLAY!

We should have one of our kickers master the drop kick.

NEEDS MORE FREEDOM!

by Scruffy Lefty on Jan 28, 2009 3:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I like the idea of a platoon.

Though I’m not all that convinced that Herring couldn’t be a full-time starter as it is. 230 doesn’t seem that small to me, especially when comparing it to 240.

by LantermanC on Jan 28, 2009 3:48 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

wow David Hawthorne's a wuss

only 25 lb bench reps? Hell, I could do that. :)

did anyone notice much droppoff after Hill went out with injury? I wonder what the stats were with/without hill. Of course it’d have been hard for our defense to get worse then last. We already have so much money invested in our linebackers, to sign hill for 6 years would pretty much be the end of hope for our young guys.

Hill is what 6-1 240? Anyone know what his measurables out of college were? Doing a quick google search i couldn’t find anything other then his 40 time of 4.75

by B.B.Finnegan on Jan 28, 2009 4:28 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

interestingly enough

Hill was only 224-229 lbs coming out of college, around the same weight as Will Herring

by B.B.Finnegan on Jan 28, 2009 4:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That makes sense

He physically looks a lot more bulky than he used to.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jan 28, 2009 5:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Why?

225 is a normal amount since the bar is 45, and the heaviest amount for a weight is usually 45 pounds, so 2 45 pounders on each side plus the bar is 225.

by LantermanC on Jan 28, 2009 7:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

We used to do it with our MLB position

a couple times before we drafted Tatupu. Was as Godfrey? or Kirkland? I don’t remember but we used them as a runstuffer then someone else came in on passing downs. Not sure how effective it was.

by B.B.Finnegan on Jan 28, 2009 4:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I thought it was Kacyvenski (sp?) and Chad Brown

But I a feeling I’m completely off because our defensive talent was laughable during those days.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jan 29, 2009 10:55 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

the Falcons and Packers just this year

the Falcons towards the end of the season with Coy Wire playing SLB on 1st & 2nd down and Michael Boley replacing him on third downs; I believe the Packers used Poppinga and Chillar in a similar fashion.

by langsty on Jan 29, 2009 1:56 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Is Peterson more valuable than Hill?

My sense is Hill is on the upside, and Peterson on the downside. Without knowing much about Peterson’s contract (in particular how much is guaranteed), it would seem to me that the right move is to sign Hill, and release Peterson. Then do what you said. No?

by BrianF on Jan 28, 2009 4:59 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Are you sure you aren't BobbyK of the TNT in disguise?

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jan 28, 2009 5:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Peterson is unique talent

Hill while being a good pass rusher, he is nothing near Peterson. Peterson brings an unique athletic presence unlike Hill. I feel Hill can be more easily replaced than Peterson. Hill also has been injured a lot more than Peterson and Peterson is workout freak much like Jerry Rice was. My guess is that we shoot low and let Hill walk and draft in the 3-4 round for an LB who could replace him. A leader, hard work ethic, Ruskelian type player, Zach Follett, Tyrone McKenzie or Marcus Freeman. IMHO

by Built2Spill on Jan 28, 2009 5:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I <3 this idea muchly

Ooooh…. so much saved cap space. Draft an LB in the middle rounds for the future and for special teams depth. Spend the $ on, oh, I don’t know, a big free agent DE or DT?

I like both Hawthorne and Herring, though the latter guy does seem injury prone.

by djafrot on Jan 28, 2009 5:36 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Is there any reason DD Lewis can't step in for Hill?

I’m no expert at football evaluation, but I didn’t notice a big drop when DD stepped in. I was really happy when we resigned him, and he seemed to be an effective replacement when he came in. Are both Herring and Hawthorne an upgrade?

by Mind of no mind on Jan 28, 2009 5:49 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

He's a free agent too, otherwise there's little doubt he's at least decent.

He started during our Super Bowl season after all.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jan 28, 2009 6:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure if this is accurate,

but I kind of relate DD Lewis to David Bell from the Mariner’s 2001 season. He was very solid with no real weaknesses, that was later forgotten about and later scrapped.

by LantermanC on Jan 28, 2009 7:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

whoa. nice analogy.

although I think the disparity between Bell and total scrub was less than it is for DD.

by Misfit74 on Jan 28, 2009 10:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I suppose that's a fair comparison.

Jack of all trades, master of none. He wouldn’t be a complete drop-off from Hill, at least in stuffing the run because he racked up an impressive tackle total in the time he played when Hill was out. And according to Jules, Lewis isn’t a second team player, he’s “1a”.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jan 29, 2009 10:56 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

How about an upgrade?

We have two veteran pro-bowl linebackers in Tat and Pete, and I think it’s time to rejuvinate with youth and go after a quality pick in the draft, particularly one with good cover skills vs. just a run stopper. Personally, I’d like to go back to the USC well, which means Clay Mathews since Cushing and Maluaga will be off the board by 37 and none are worthy of 4. That or Larry English from N. Illinois.

by diehard82 on Jan 28, 2009 6:10 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

um, probably impossible?

Leroy Hill is going to be one of the best linebackers to hit free agency in recent memory. Productive every year since drafted in the third round, 26 years old, filled out so now he’s near prototype size. Great run stuffer, decent in coverage.

It’s not a lock that a late first/early second round pick would come close to what he’s been doing.

by cro-mag! on Jan 29, 2009 10:40 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't forget he's an excellent blitzer.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jan 29, 2009 10:57 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

truth.

he’s probably gonna be expensive. i don’t mind this platoon idea as long as the team commits to filling out depth with a 3-5 rounder so that if somebody goes down we have reasonable skills behind him. I like Herring and Hawthorne a lot, bringing in another talent around that level would be good.

or just keeping Hill and having the best LB corps in the league.

by cro-mag! on Jan 29, 2009 11:01 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Really?

I think LeRoy Hill and ‘one of the best linebackers to hit free agency in recent memory’ doesn’t really pop into my head.
It’s really hard to judge him I think because of our other linebackers. Kind of like a fly ball pitcher with the Mariners next year, it might be harder to judge due to other players’ talents. I think the fact that DD Lewis played fairly well for the last 4 games is pretty telling.

by LantermanC on Jan 29, 2009 12:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

i definitley think so

the top tier of LBs either get resigned or franchised, and I certainly think that a 26 year old Hill just entering into his prime is as good or better than last years crop of Kawika Mitchell, or Boss Bailey, Kendrell Bell, Teddy Bruschi, Roosevelt Colvin, Nail Diggs, Napoleon Harris, Takeo Spikes, Zach Thomas, etc.

http://www.kffl.com/static/nfl/features/freeagents/index.php#archive

there might be some gems in there that i’ve missed, and I just eyeballed the 2007 and 2006 lists to make sure I wasn’t crazy. I’d rather have Hill than any of those guys, by a lot.

by cro-mag! on Jan 29, 2009 1:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Kendrell Bell, Napoleon Harris, Boss Bailey.

Had such promise, I wonder what happened to them.
Spikes was a beast, kind of seems like a beaten down horse to me now though.

I guess you’re right then, besides that guy that NE signed from Baltimore, I can’t really think of a better linebacker that hit free agency (besides perhaps Julian Peterson)

by LantermanC on Jan 29, 2009 1:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

adalius thomas

and you’re totally right about peterson, i overlooked him because he came here.

by cro-mag! on Jan 29, 2009 1:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

that guy is the peak of the list outside of JP of what you mentioned.

It would be tough to say Hill is a better all-around player than him (A.Thomas) when he left Baltimore, but certainly I agree that Hill beats any of those other guys, from what I know of them. Hill’s shortcomings are still in coverage, from what I understand. Adalius was well regarded as having been good at that while a Raven. And we know about Peterson.

cro-mag, you’re list helps me see Hills value. Nice list. However, none of those guys got huge contracts, did they? Really, outside of thomas and peterson, did anyone really break the bank? More important live up to said contract?

I think Hill, if he can stay healthy, would live up to a nice contract be it with us or another team. I still question his coverage, if not only because it’s isn’t often talked about as one of Leroy’s real assets. We know he can blitz (and he was underutilized in that regard, imo) and he can tackle like a machine.

by Misfit74 on Jan 29, 2009 1:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And his coverage regressed

meaning he was once very good at it.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jan 29, 2009 2:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I see two main problems

with the platoon approach. First, it makes your defense more predictable and more exploitable. They can exploit the faster, weaker guy with run plays and the slower stronger guy with pass plays. And who are you going to use on marginal downs? They can key on whomever you use on those plays and do the same thing, running or passing depending upon which guy you put in.

Second, the platoon approach might as well be called, the lack-of-every-down-linebacker approach. You are going light on talent at the position and whenever you do that you are betting the farm on your talented guys staying healthy. If Lofa or Julian go down, there goes the season. Do you really want to bank everything on those two staying healthy?

by VBJohnson on Jan 28, 2009 6:23 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

actually, to me it seems the other way around on both counts.

1) it’s easier to adjust on D than on O… the D can watch what kind of offensive packages come on the field and adjust their LB’s accordingly much easier than the O, which goes through more of a huddle. So that benefits platooning LB’s.

2) what difference does platooning one LB spot have on depth at other spots? It actually could be argued that having two guys play one spot helps against injuries, as one of them can cover for the other should he get injuried.

by djafrot on Jan 28, 2009 6:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

.

1. Huh? Once the players are on the field and the offense is in the huddle, then the play is called. All teams have offensive packages they can run or pass out of.

2. As I said, you’re platooning guys because you don’t have three that can do everything like Peterson and Lofa can. If you only have two guys like that and one gets hurt, you’re screwed. You’re going to platoon at two positions? If one of the platoon guys gets hurt then, again, your linebacker corps has an obvious weakness that offenses can game plan for and exploit.

by VBJohnson on Jan 28, 2009 6:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

uh...

1. The play may be called, but the personnel is already in there, which is generally a much more deciding factor. Defensive guys will shuttle in after quite frequently. As far as I’m concerned, matching up is MUCH easier for the D to do than the O. Someone back me up on this.

2. It’s pretty rare, and expensive, to find someone that can do everything that Lofa and Peterson can. A guy of that caliber generally costs at least six mil a season unless you draft an instant starter phenomenon or… you do what a lot of teams do… you PLATOON the position. How many teams in this league have the same three guys on the field all downs? Not too many.

by djafrot on Jan 28, 2009 7:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

GB and ATL were mentioned above...

Also, keep in mind that a lot of teams pull an outside linebacker almost routinely on 3rd down and replace with a 5th DB. The Seahawks a lot of times keep all three linebackers, sliding JP down to DE and pulling a DT. Since we have a potential glut at DE coming, with none of the guys except maybe Kerney being every down material, consider this:

In nickel packs, don’t slide down JP. Instead, run with three DE’s such as Atkins/Jackson, Kerney, Tapp and let JP play the way Hill was playing last year. We could still blitz JP a lot even though he would be standing up some of the time and we can still shallow zone Kerney or another one of our rather speedy ends. (which he used to do effectively for us)

The notion of a defensive ‘platoon’ is common fare in the NFL. The actual term ‘platoon’ is obviously used more in baseball but it is the same concept. Many teams employ rotations at several defensive positions. The front seven are very likely to be subbed out on a regular basis.

by michaelfox99 on Jan 29, 2009 5:27 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Shouldah read your post first

totally agree. the defense is far less able to dictate than the offense.

"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin

by dcrockett17 on Jan 29, 2009 5:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think it's hard to platoon in the NFL

Seattle ran a platoon years back when Levon Kirkland played in the middle. Eventually, Kirkland got phased out as teams just started throwing at him on first and second down. Offenses can dictate—or at least have a major influence on—what you can do defensively with their pace, personnel, and formation. Smart OCs, when facing a true platoon, will just run at your pass defender and make your run defender cover the pass. I don’t like the idea of a platoon at LB. I don’t mind playing several LBs. We did that in 2005 with Kevin Bentley. But that’s not the same as having a “run specialist” and a “pass specialist,” which is how I understand this post.

I can support a position that says “I’m not gonna spend a lot on this linebacker,” but not having run and pass specialists. Rather, we could just name Herring or Hawthorne the starter (or draft a guy, or sign an undervalued FA) if Hill is too rich for our blood. DD Lewis went from undrafted free agent gem to starter as Chad Brown faded. Leroy Hill was a third round steal who eventually supplanted Lewis. So, it shouldn’t shock anyone if Herring, Hawthorne, or both play well enough to make us forget about Hill the way many of us have forgotten about Chad Brown.

However, I think we need to look for a starter to play all three downs.

"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin

by dcrockett17 on Jan 28, 2009 7:43 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

i disagree "I think it's hard to platoon in the NFL "

first off, i think with any platoon situation (football or otherwise) you’re hoping that one player comes out, kicks ass in all phases of the game and wins the starting job. that’s obvoiously best case.

a good coach uses the strenths and avoids the weaknesses of his players. regardless of who is the starter, it would make sense to pull hawthorne out on 3rd and 15, while making sure that he’s in on 3rd and 2. in marginal situations (2nd and 6?) the team would put in the guy they thought was a better fit.

if hawthorne is an above average run stuffer but but only ok in coverage, and the herring is ok against the run and above average in coverage platooning is easy. it’s not like teams would be able to say “oh, hawthorne is in, let’s just pass to whoever he is covering” or “herring is in, let’s run right at him.” both are reasonable NFL caliber players, and if we’re using them intelligently shouldn’t get exposed too bad.

by cro-mag! on Jan 29, 2009 4:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

.

it’s not like teams would be able to say "oh, hawthorne is in, let’s just pass to whoever he is covering" or "herring is in, let’s run right at him."

Why can’t they?

by VBJohnson on Jan 29, 2009 5:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

because 1) defenses are complicated and football doesn't work that way

and 2) neither of those players’ weaknesses are true liabilities.

using a playground example:
if i’m playing 2 on 2 basketball, you and me on one team, michael jordan and my little sister on the other. obviously our plan on offense is to figure out who my little sister is covering and pass to them and make the easy basket.

back to the hawks – when hawthorne is out there, it’s probably going to be a running situation with base package in. so lets call it 3rd and 3. our D can be doing a lot of different things, moving around, showing blitz etc. if the offense audibles into a passing play hoping to expose hawthorne, they don’t know who he’s supposed to be covering and most likely it will be a fullback or second tight end anyways. so IF they tried to take advantage of his supposed weakness they will have to be forcing the ball to a below average target trying to beat our below average coverage of that guy. no real net gain for them, right? add to the fact that defenses are always disguising coverage so they might not even know where hawthorne ends up (or he blitzes) and it’s not really a huge deal.

long example, hope you followed it.

by cro-mag! on Jan 30, 2009 9:28 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well,

I do know that NFL offenses exploit single player’s weaknesses all the time. I know it isn’t that hard to study a defense and then devise a way to get their weak player Y to have to stop your strong player X.

NFL defenses know this and often the only way they can defeat it is to have another defensive player, Z, help Y. When it comes to Y being linebackers, the extra help is often a safety, but then this leaves the defense vulnerable in other ways, which the offense can anticipate with decoys and then exploit. It’s easy to do because you see on the film that plenty of other teams attack defensive weak player Y and you can see on film the ways Y’s team uses to help him and then exploit that.

by VBJohnson on Jan 31, 2009 12:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Wait, I thought the Heater was an MLB.

Are you proposing to move him out of position?

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jan 28, 2009 7:45 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

The team likes versatile LB'ers

especially the back-ups. Hawthorne’s listed as MLB on the depth chart, but IIRC, this last preseason when he saw time, it was just as often at WLB as MLB. It’s not like he’s a hulking, slow 260lbs run-stuffier that projects only at MLB.

That’s the same thing the team did with D.D. Lewis – he was an undersized but productive MLB in college, spent his first year here as MLB back-up and then transitioned into all 3 positions. Same thing with Kevin Bentley. The team likes the jack-of-all-trades types, and Hawthorne looks like the same, IMO.

by jteckmann on Jan 30, 2009 11:10 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I have a man-crush on Hawthorne

I’m open to any idea getting him on the field.

"It's just one big guy against another big guy, both teams know what's at stake. The one of them comes out on top and it feels good."
-Chris Collinsworth, Madden 09

by Wayward Llama on Jan 28, 2009 8:24 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

How about a 'The Heater' jersey?

All we have to do is convince DH to change his name to David The-Heater. That would rule!

by Misfit74 on Jan 28, 2009 10:21 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I like this idea..

I think you open the position up at camp between Herring, Hawthorne, and Laury and see if one of them wins it outright. Depending on how that goes you divvy up the PT. My suspicion is that there is talented depth at LB for us, even if the names aren’t big at this point. Look where Koutovides and Bentley are now. I think Laury/Herring/Hawthorne plus maybe a late rounder should do the job. 3rd best linebacker on the team is a very non premium position that can be subbed out to bring in a talented nickel back like Wilson anyways.

I was never enamored by Hill. He could lay a pop if he got the opportunity right in front of him, very Kawika Mitchell-esque but he rarely reacted intelligently to a developing play to put himself in position. This is not my original observation obviously. If the market for him is as hot as some of us will suspect it will be, then I support saving the money for bigger needs.

I like Crabtree a lot, but Branch looked great at the end of last year and if we brought in Housh we would have a very dynamic receiver duo. Burleson was killing it early against the Bills, I really thought he was going to break out last year (not insanely, but appreciably) so thats a possibility too. That would free us up come draft day.

by michaelfox99 on Jan 29, 2009 5:38 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Koutouvides is trash and couldn't beat out some scrub despite the Broncos trying to hand him a starting job.

Bentley hasn’t done much in Houston either. So far it seems like they’re just excellent special teamers.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jan 29, 2009 10:59 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think Herring is such a liability in run support or Hawthorne such a liability in pass coverage

that teams would be able to exploit either. Obviously, if it’s 2nd and 10 or 3rd and 7, it would take a pretty huge mismatch to dignify running the ball. It’s awesome that Hill turned out to be such a good player, but much of his value is tied to inexpensiveness.

by John Morgan on Jan 29, 2009 10:50 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Is this your first comment in this thread?

Sometimes I think you like posting thought provoking things only watch us argue amongst ourselves on random topics.

Ex)
platoons won’t work in football, baseball only!
or
LeRoy Hill is an awesome linebacker!
No he’s overrated!

by LantermanC on Jan 29, 2009 12:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's my first comment

because I was sick and feverish yesterday and wanted to post something that wouldn’t take much time or work. I posted this, shut my computer and slept 12 hours.

I do think Seattle should replace Hill with a Hawthorne/Herring platoon. If it becomes remotely possible, ie Seattle doesn’t re-sign Hill, then I will go into greater depth, but there’s a certain pie-in-the-sky notion about this post and I don’t want to oversell something the franchise just won’t do.

by John Morgan on Jan 29, 2009 1:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sick again?

You need to take an FG break and go on vacation?
If you open up a fund for a vacation for Mr and Mrs. JM, I’ll gladly donate.

by LantermanC on Jan 29, 2009 1:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Still the same bug?

Ye gads, time to put you into a medically induced coma until you get over it.

by BrianL on Jan 29, 2009 2:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Fun, but tiring.

Constantly identifying new topics to talk about is hard. It’s easy for us since we only do so when convenientor a thought pops in yoru head, but running a great website I imagine takes a lot out of you. Kind of like being a newspaper writer and having constant deadlines. News comes in waves, but they still have to come out with stories.

by LantermanC on Jan 29, 2009 1:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

wow!

Those guys are tall. 6000 and 6025 feet tall? We need them in the game on the PAT/FG defense unit!

I'm kinda sad Shanahan is gone... I liked the Donkeys being 8-8 every year...

by whiskey chainsaw on Jan 30, 2009 8:35 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Regarding the platoon idea

I think it makes a lot of sense. But so much depends on Hill and whether we’re moving toward a Tampa 2. As I’m sure you all know, T2 requires pressure from the front 4 with linebackers taking up more cover responsibility. Frankly, I’m skeptical about T2 given our core players skill sets. Pass cover may not be a weakness for any of the LB’s, but I think we can all agree it’s not a strength for Hill or Lofa, and all three are strong run stoppers and blitzers. Whether DD gets re-signed or not, the platoon in lieu of Hill probably doesn’t spell a big dropoff in performance, and does save big $ that could be used for a free-agent FS, DT, DE or even CB to upgrade the D overall.

by diehard82 on Feb 10, 2009 12:11 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

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