Football Logic: 101
For those that have studied debate, it can be frustrating to entertain arguments that contain fundamental logical errors. Once understood, these fundamentals provide very tight structural frameworks for logical thought formulation. Debating those without this fundamental base, can be an exhausting excersize; however, the subtleties contained within the definitions of logical fallacy can be equally as frustrating to those without the base of knowledge to work from. At times, it appears that the other party is simply debating to hear themselves argue. It often comes off as "logical snobbery".
This Fan Post is simply meant to be a reference (I admit I dusted off some of the old college texts for accuracy and have various tidbits from that manuscript scattered throughout). I won't pretend to know any more than the next guy that has studied the topic, but I figured it would be a good idea to create some material which all Field Gulls could access when formulating arguments. When applicable, I have attempted to tie these thoughts back into real world NFL examples for clarity.
Some Basics
In short, a logical fallacy is an error of reasoning. These errors are broken into two different groups (formal and informal fallacies).
A. Formal Fallacies (deductive) are your "air-tight" arguments. With a well formed formal argument, it's impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion to be false. Any deductive argument that fails to meet these qualifications is fallacious. Here is a classic, well-formed example with an NFL twist:
All Seahawks are NFL players.
Matt Hasselbeck is a Seahawk
Therefore... Matt Hasselbeck is an NFL Player.
B. Informal Fallacies (inductive) lend support to their conclusions, but don't establish with 100% certainty that their conclusions are true (even with 100% true premises). The following would be a fallacy:
Every Superbowl Champion has had a positive regular season turnover ratio.
Therefore... next years Superbowl Champion will have a positive RS turnover ratio.
All inductive arguments deductively invalid. The premises of an inductive argument do not entail the truth of the argument's conclusion, and so even the most solid inductive arguments fall short of deductive validity.
Fallacy Classifications: There are 17 basic types of logical error broken into 3 classes. There are many variations and sub classes of fallacious reasoning, but this should provide a good foundation.
CLASSIFICATION 1.
Logical Fallacies of Relevance:fail to provide adequate reason for believing the truth of their conclusions.
A. Appeals to Force: Occurs when someone in a position of power threatens to bring down unfortunate consequences upon anyone who dares to disagree with a proposition.
"Either you agree with me on the Gus Bradley hiring or your banned from commenting on Field Gulls"
In this case, authority, or position of power, is never grounds for logical truth.
B. Appeals to Pity: Is exactly the opposite of an appeal to force. It o ccurs when a commenter points out negative consequences of not agreeing with their opinion.
"See?... this is why I never post on Field Gulls. Nobody ever understands me. I will stop visiting this website."
C. Appeal to Emotion: Relies upon emotively charged language to arouse strong feelings that may lead an audience to accept its conclusion.
"Tim Ruskell is an antiquated relic, that rode the coat tails of a Tampa Bay Juggernaut that was already set in motion. He is an opportunist and is ripping the sinews of the Seahawks soul apart."
The problem is that although the fiery language of the premise can create strong feelings in many members of its intended audience, even an overwhelming support of those feelings has nothing to do with the truth of the conclusion.
D. Appeal to Authority: the opinion of someone famous or accomplished in another area of expertise is supposed to guarantee the truth of a conclusion.
Tim Ruskell believes that Colin Cole was worth the money and he's the GM of an NFL team.
You have never been in a Front Office of an NFL team, so I think Ruskell knows more then you.
This is a very common logical fallacy to fall into. Even in areas where someone may have special knowledge or skill we cannot accept the word of an individual as proof of anything. NFL execs are proven mistaken all the time. Their testimony is inductive evidence but never deductive proof of the truth of a conclusion.
E. Ad Hominem (personal attacks): Is the exact opposite of appeal to authority. This occurs when we are encouraged to reject a proposition because it is the stated opinion of someone regarded as disreputable in some way.
Tim Ruskell believes Kelly Jennings was a good draft pick.
Tim Ruskell was wrong about Brian Russell.
Tim Ruskell was wrong about Colin Cole.
Therefore...Tim Ruskell is wrong about Kelly Jennings.
F. Appeal to Ignorance: proposes that we accept the truth of a proposition unless an opponent can prove otherwise.
Brian Brohm has never succeeded in the NFL
Therefore... Brian Brohm cannot succeed in the NFL.
Obviously the absence of evidence against a proposition is not enough to secure its truth. What we don't know could nevertheless be so. This is exactly the argument John was correctly making in the Brohm thread, when he said..."You cannot prove what you don't know".
G. Irrelevant Conclusions: Can be very distracting as an argument. This fallacy tries to establish the truth of a proposition by offering an argument that actually provides support for an entirely different conclusion.
The Seahawks don't have a good running game.
NFL teams need good offensive lines to have good running games.
Therefore, the Seahawks should draft offensive linemen in the next draft.
Here the premises might support some conclusion about NFL running-game success in general, but do not secure the truth of a conclusion distributed between all the factors that contribute to a good running game (OL, RB's, Blocking scheme).
CLASSIFICATION 2.
Logical Fallacies of Ambiguity: are errors in reasoning that arise from the imprecise use of language.
A. Equivocation: Stresses the use of an ambiguous word or phrase in one of its meanings in one of the propositions of an argument but also in another of its meanings in a second proposition.
Colin Cole is heavy.
What is heavy cannot be easily moved.
Therefore... Colin Cole cannot be easily moved.
If only it were this easy for our dear friend Mr. Cole.
B. Accent: is one of my favorites, and can be very subtle. The fallacy of accent arises from an ambiguity produced by a shift of spoken or written emphasis.
Matt Hasselbeck didn't throw many interceptions today.
Therefore... Matt Hasselbeck usually throws many interceptions.
Here the premise may be true if read without inflection, but if it is read with heavy stress on the last word seems to imply the truth of the conclusion. Sneaky debaters can get away with murder on emphasis alone and always fall back on the validitiy of an un-stressed context.
C. Composition: involves an implication of some feature to every individual member of a class (or part of a greater whole) to the possession of the same feature by the entire class (or whole). Basically this is an improper generalization.
The Seahawks offense is clicking on all cylinders and well organized.
Therefore... the Seahawks are well organized.
While the conclusion could very well be true, the problem is that the premise doesn't support it. There could be a dozen reasons that the Seahawks ARE well organized, but those reasons aren't part of the arguments structure. You often see this fallacy appear when talking about Seahawks defense and a potential switch to a 3-4. It usually goes something like this: "Most of the top defenses in the league are 3-4, therefore the Seahawks should find a way to switch to the 3-4." Whether switching to the 3-4 would actually help the hawks is irrelevant. The point is that using a general truth about a collective, and applying it as truth to a unit within the collective is fallacious.
D. Fallacy of Division: involves an inference from the attribution of some feature to an entire class (or whole) to the possession of the same feature by each of its individual members (or parts). Similar of course to the Fallacy of Composition except in reverse.
Feature Running Backs are in decline in the NFL.
Minnesota Vikings use a feature back system.
Therefore... the Minnesota Vikings are in decline.
The important part of this fallacy of division is that even though something can be truly said in general of a whole group, it does not follow that the same can be truly said of any of its individual parts.
CLASSIFICATION 3.
Logical Fallacies of Presumption: fail to provide adequate reason for believing the truth of their conclusions.
A. Fallacy of Accident: Tries to tie statements that are true as a general rule, into far more specific examples.
Quarterbacks are more important than Running Backs.
Mike Teel is a Quarterback
Adrian Peterson is a running back
Therefore, Mike Teel is more important than Adrian Peterson.
The truth of a general rule leaves plenty of room for exceptional cases, and applying it to any of them is a logical fallacy.
B. Converse Accident: Using a specific case that is unusual or atypical in some way, and then attempting to derive from this case, the truth of a general rule.
Matt Hasselbeck is bald and an excellent passer.
Therefore, bald quarterbacks are excellent passers.
It should be obvious that a single instance is not enough to establish the truth of such a general principle.
C. False Cause: Infers the presence of a connection between two events simply because the events appear to occur in correlation.
The Seahawks wore thier throwback uniforms on Sunday.
They went on to win the game.
Therefore, the Seahawks won the game because of the throwback uniforms.
D. Begging the Question: Is using your conclusion within the premises for that very conclusion. Sometimes known as circular logic as well.
"Since good draft picks must be strong steady leaders that produce on the field, it follows that Aaron Curry cannot be a good draft pick."
This argument is formally valid because it is impossible for their conclusions to be false if their premises are true. This is often a sticking point in an argument in that the conclusion cannot be false; HOWEVER , the real problem is that there is absolutely no support for their conclusion which has already been accepted without proof from the outset.
E. Complex Question
The fallacy of complex question presupposes the truth of its own conclusion by including it implicitly in the statement of the issue to be considered:
Do you expect the Seahawks to draft OL or DL? Either way, your admitting they are going to blow the pick.
Final Word
The definitions contained within should be correct and I have attempted to double check all my analogies for accuracy as well. Maybe if John has some time he can check and make sure I haven't overlooked something.
Hope this helps somebody.... sometime.
A place to bury strangers.
5 recs |
35 comments
Comments
This fanpost
establishes you as more knowledgeable and experienced than the average person. Your opinion is therefore more likely to be true.
by Salty on Nov 20, 2009 7:40 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
While appreciated.... A logical fallacy.
My opinion is no more pre-dispositioned to be correct than anyone else’s simply because I have studied logical function 15 years ago. Even if I had written my old text-book (which I referenced ad nauseam in this post), I would still be bound to the same principles of logical thought formulation as the next guy.
I’ll get that 20 bucks to you soon though…
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by iverson2169 on Nov 20, 2009 7:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think there's a rather important typo in the first line of A. Formal Fallacies (deductive)...
The line is:
With a well formed formal fallacy, it’s impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion to be false. Any deductive argument that fails to meet these qualifications is fallacious.
Did you mean:
With a well formed formal argument, it’s impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion to be false. Any deductive argument that fails to meet these qualifications is fallacious.
This confused the hell out of me until I figured it out (unless I’m still wrong).
by sev79 on Nov 20, 2009 9:01 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Opps.... yeah. I didn't copy any of the text verbatim (all paraphrased) so there's bound to be a typo or two.
thanks
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by iverson2169 on Nov 20, 2009 9:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That was written wierd... meant to say
None of the definitions I referenced were copied verbatim….
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by iverson2169 on Nov 20, 2009 9:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, understandable. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy.
It’s nice to see a formal list of these. I never studied debate and I’ve always been curious when people mention or cite specific types of fallacies in message board debates.
by sev79 on Nov 20, 2009 11:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I know what you mean....
I have seen people mention during an argument (debate) before that they “know there’s something wrong with the logic”, they just can’t put their finger on what to call it.
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by iverson2169 on Nov 21, 2009 12:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You left out my favorite, Slippery Slope
“If the Seahawks don’t draft Eric Berry, we will never have a strong set of safeties, which will lead to us having a weak defense, and since Tim Ruskell invested so much in the defense, he will be fired, and Mike Holmgren will be made GM in his place, and he’ll fire Jim Mora and hire Gil Haskell as coach, and we will run the fullback draw on every third down ever, and the Seahawks will toil in offensive predictability for the rest of time, and never win a game, and everyone in Seattle will commit suicide”
by DetectiveM on Nov 20, 2009 9:59 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Yeah... slippery slope is often thought to be a fallacy of ignorance (above).
But your right… it is one of the more common logical problems with an argument.
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by iverson2169 on Nov 20, 2009 10:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I used to love using logic like this to make it impossible for the other person to win.
While fun in real life, I hate reading arguments like this online. It just turns into a shouting match. Thank you for posting this.
I’m wondering if people will start using these fallacies as a reply. Somebody makes a converse argument and another simply replies with the paragraph explanation above. That could get frustrating quickly.
by Tyler Cox on Nov 20, 2009 10:03 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I was actually hoping people would use it to proof their own arguments instead of grading other people's....
but… In the end, it probably can’t hurt to raise the collective intelligence of the community.
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by iverson2169 on Nov 20, 2009 10:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Good post Iverson.
Loved the explanations and the examples. Reminds me of studying the LSAT.
by LantermanC on Nov 20, 2009 10:42 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Oh
ok
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by iverson2169 on Nov 21, 2009 12:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
As a casual visitor to this site;
This summary is quite good. As a reasonably educated man and having taken logic I have used these principals on a number of occasions to quiet down a few characters with less than perfect arguments. I will look forward to utilizing these well stated facts during the next trash talking thread on the week prior to the Niners Seahawks game.
by Natural Red on Nov 21, 2009 2:46 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
College Quarterbacks that have very quick releases like Snead become very good NFL Quarterbacks.
Snead is going to be the next Dan Marino.
by Misfit74 on Nov 21, 2009 3:28 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
What a cool read,
thanks for posting it. As impassioned as most fans are, it can be difficult to articulate a sound argument. Something like this can be very helpful.
I'm gonna go calm submissive on your ass.
by Dukeshire on Nov 22, 2009 9:52 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Thanks...
I was hoping John would have had time to make sure the analogies are appropriate. Sometimes a second eye is important.
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by iverson2169 on Nov 22, 2009 5:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Your "Appeal to Authority" Fallacy description is incorrect.
While appealing to an authority does not necessarily prove an argument, it does not necessarily constitute a logical fallacy to do so. The “Appeal to Authority”, or the “Ad Verecundiam” fallacy only exists if the authority appealed to is not actually an authority on the topic.
I can make a correctly formulated, fallacy-free, argument that does not “prove” my point.
Fallacies are arguments that are incorrect, and that are based on illogical reasoning. It is possible to have a correct argument based on logical reasoning that doesn’t necessarily prove anything.
For example:
Mike Holmgren and Jim Mora are experts in evaluating NFL talent.
Neither Mike Holmgren or Jim Mora thought TJ Duckett was a good RB talent.
Therefore TJ Duckett was not a good RB talent.
Is a correct and logical argument, and contains no fallacies.
The fact that Mike Holmgren and Jim Mora have made mistakes doesn’t change this. This is a correct and logical argument that makes a case for what I assert. It may prove to be wrong, it does constitute a correctly constructed argument.
by lordtd on Nov 23, 2009 10:44 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I've heard both appeal to authority arguments.
One being ‘the neurologist recommends this skin care product’ being a fallacy because brains aren’t related to skin products.
The other being ‘If Brian Russell were a horrible safety, don’t you think that Ruskell would cut him or Holmgren would bench him?’ which implies that every move that someone in a position of power is well thought out and the best possible idea/decision at the time.
I think both are correct.
by LantermanC on Nov 23, 2009 10:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Both are not correct here.
There is a big difference between the probability of a conclusion being correct, and the logical formatting for presenting such an argument.
In this case, it does not mean that authorities are incorrect. It means that now matter how much expertise and authority on a subject has, there is always room for error, and therefore can never be used as guarantee of proof. For every example one throws out of an expert being correct (or incorrect) there are usually equally as many examples to the contrary.
Because of this, expert opinion is expectable as inductive evidence, but CANNOT constitute burden of proof. You cannot say “Mike Holmgren thought Duckett was a bad running back, and therefore he is a bad running back”…. It;s an opinion and is easily impeached because it presupposes that Mike Holmgren is never wrong… Mike Holmgren also thought David Greene was a good Quarterback.
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by iverson2169 on Nov 23, 2009 6:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Your example most certainly IS a logical fallacy...
The conclusion is not supported by the premise. Anytime an conclusion is based on opinion instead of objective facts, it is an error in logic. Expert opinion constitutes inductive evidence, but is NOT proof of a conclusion.
Fallacies are arguments that are incorrect
Not true. When someone adopts a position, or tries to persuade someone else to adopt a position, based on a bad piece of reasoning, they commit a logically fallacious argument. This condition is NOT dependent on the conclusion being true or false.
Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
by iverson2169 on Nov 23, 2009 5:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You guys (John and Iverson) are both wrong, and I am required to appeal to authority prove it
From the logic 101 class I actually took, the class textbook, “Fundamentals of Logic”, by Carney and Scheer (1980). Page 29, very first sentence and I quote:
“A fallacy is an argument that is incorrect…”
A bad piece of reasoning is one that is illogical. It is not illogical to appeal to an authority, provided that that person is an actual authority.
Further quoting from page 41 of the same text:
“A is a reliable authority concerning p
A asserts p
Therefore p
Now the fallacy of appeal to authority.. occurs, when an argument is of the first form above and A is not an authority in the area to which p pertains."
I conclude that the fact that a particular authority has made mistakes in the past does not make any such argument a fallacy unless these mistakes are so huge that they discredit his standing as an authority.
A fallacy is a very specific thing, i.e. an error in logic. An appeal to authority is not an error in logic as long as that person has real authority. Mike Holmgren and Jim Mora are clearly authorities in NFL player evaluation. They are paid millions of dollars to perform this function and Holmgren in particular has had multiple successful teams built with talent acquired while he was there.
What John says below is also wrong. Proposing something is true because of who said it is absolutely NOT illogical. The “appeal to authority” fallacy is only a fallacy IF the source is not an authority.
The textbook goes on to be more clear about this (page 42):
“Even though it is, of course, not a fallacy to consult an expert, one practical problem is to know what to believe when their opinions conflict. Mintz and Cohen in Power, Inc. raise this problem and come to the wise and hardly surprising conclusion that in most serious matters we should not uncritically trust experts.”
The important quote: “it is, of course, not a fallacy to consult an expert:”
The conclusion may not be correct, but the reasoning is logical and fallacy-free.
Logical reasoning does not always yield a correct conclusion.
There are many other variables that may lead to the incorrect conclusion, such as not really having access to the authority, and thus being forced to only guess what their opinion is. So I may assert that Mike Holmgren believes that TJ Ducket is a lousy runner, but since I haven’t actually talked to Holmgren, I’m only asserting that based on something else. So it’s a bit more complicated.
.
by lordtd on Nov 24, 2009 10:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This is how I had felt
I admit I was not — and though I’ve been incredibly enlightened by reading this and other recent posts with large discourses on logic, still am not — as educated as you guys are on this, and ultimately it was a pretty trivial thing to get so worked up about, but it was bothering me quite a bit to see accusations of logical fallacy thrown about so much around here, which ultimately stifled dialogue more than anything else.
No, not illogical to consult, reference or otherwise appeal to authority in lack of direct, conclusive evidence at hand. People are people, are not perfect, and so of course it is not conclusive. But correct reasoning is not always conclusive or correct in truth.
You make one last point that does make me concede, taking the lack of action of a large group of GMs re: Brohm can still be fallacious, on account of “guessing what their opinion is,” even if it’s not fallacious on account of appealing to their alleged authority. That hadn’t occurred to me. But I was never contending that it would be conclusive proof against Brohm, just that it’s a valid dynamic to consider, and that limited inferences could be made from it.
So, thanks for the educated response, here. This aligns with my understanding of logic, and explains to myself why I was so bothered by what was presented. The Holmgren/Mora/Duckett example you used actually IS the fallacious appeal to authority, though. But I get your point, and you are correct, that it’s not a fallacy to consult an expert.
by jacobstevens on Nov 24, 2009 11:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The conversation isn't about the validity of your assertion but the integrity of your deduction
It may not be a fallacy to say that Duckett is a bad talent. It is not a fallacy to consult an expert and say that his opinion lends weight to something being more or less likely. It is a fallacy to say that Duckett is, with certainty, a bad talent because an expert thought he was a bad talent (a claim you haven’t backed up).
You’ve created a strawman, discussing the correctness of your claim and whether it’s reasonable to consult an authority while everyone else is discussing the deductive fallacy you’ve used to arrive, with certainty, at your claim.
The presence of a formal fallacy in a deductive argument does not imply anything about the argument’s premises or its conclusion (see fallacy fallacy). Both may actually be true, or even more probable as a result of the argument (e.g. appeal to authority), but the deductive argument is still invalid because the conclusion does not follow from the premises in the manner described.
A deductive fallacy, or logical fallacy, is defined as a deductive argument that is invalid. The argument itself could have true premises, but still have a false conclusion1.
by Nate Dogg on Nov 24, 2009 12:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No, this is still wrong.
I did not create a strawman. I merely gave an example. Maybe it was a bad one, so ignore it. I am responding to “1-D” above that talks about what the “appeal to authority fallacy is”. “1-D” above is wrong. It says:
" Appeal to Authority: the opinion of someone famous or accomplished in another area of expertise is supposed to guarantee the truth of a conclusion."
This an incorrect statement. Let me explain again.
Here’s a better example:
Mike Holmgren is an authority on NFL talent
Mike Holmgren says TJ Duckett is a bad NFL Talent
Therefore TJ Duckett is a bad NFL talent
This not a fallacy. It may be wrong, but it is logically sound. It is not an example of the “Appealing to Authority” fallacy.
This example:
Chris Rock is an authority on comedy
Chris Rock says TJ Duckett is a bad NFL talent
Therefore TJ Duckett is a bad NFL talent.
IS an example of the “Appealing to Authority” fallacy because Chris Rock is not an authority on NFL talent.
by lordtd on Nov 24, 2009 2:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure what textbook you are pulling from
but it’s wrong. An appeal to authority fallacy is not dependent on the source being an “authority”. That’s illogical. One would not call it an appeal to authority fallacy if the matter was how authoritative the authority. The matter, just like the converse ad hominem fallacy, is that one’s status has no impact on the truth of their statement.
In fact, the ad hominem fallacy is a silver bullet for gunning down your theory. If the credibility of an authority is what determines if an appeal to authority is fallacious or not, I could counter that argument with an ad hominem attack. So:
Mike Holmgren is an authority on NFL talent
Mike Holmgren says TJ Duckett is a bad NFL Talent
Therefore TJ Duckett is a bad NFL talent
Mike Holmgren believes Shaun Alexader is still a good running back
Mike Holmgren is either blind of incapable of evaluating running back talent
Therefore no opinion Holmgren has about rushers can be trusted.
Of course that’s irrational. As is the converse: An appeal to Mike Holmgren’s “authority”.
by John Morgan on Nov 24, 2009 4:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wikipedia disagrees. (Look at me, appealing to an authority known to be problematic!)
Argument from authority or appeal to authority is a logical fallacy, where it is argued that a statement is correct because the statement is made by a person or source that is commonly regarded as authoritative. The most general structure of this argument is:
Source A says that p.
Source A is authoritative.
Therefore, p is true.
This is a fallacy because the truth or falsity of the claim is not necessarily related to the personal qualities of the claimant, and because the premises can be true, and the conclusion false (an authoritative claim can turn out to be false).
by thebyron on Nov 24, 2009 2:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Read your own text sir...
It states that a fallacy is an argument that is incorrect… NOT a conclusion that is incorrect.
Your argument is flawed in that your only premise offered to support the conclusion is that of a man who has been both correct and incorrect on the very issue your trying to resolve. This is the reason that authoritative opinion cannot and will not ever constitute burden of proof.
If I (or anyone) can show even one example of where Holmgren has been wrong about a running back, your conclusion fails. Obviously there have been several examples of this, so your conclusion hinges upon the opinion of a former head coach that could be right…. or could be wrong. Not a proof.
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by iverson2169 on Nov 24, 2009 4:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's not wrong to trust an authority
or believe the opinion of someone expert in their field, even if you do not understand the reasons for that opinion, but it is illogical to propose something is true because of who said it. Your example is a textbook appeal to authority fallacy.
by John Morgan on Nov 24, 2009 12:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Two different things are being debated
Trust and logic. We trust authorities because of reciprocity and the social contract.
by John Morgan on Nov 24, 2009 12:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You bring up a great point here... and also a major problem in debating any issue.
How does one present evidence in the form of authoritative opinion, without having your conclusion depend on that very evidence?
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by iverson2169 on Nov 24, 2009 12:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My perspectve
has always been that the two different things being conflated were logic and conclusion. Seems to me, folks were calling any grouping of evidence that nevertheless could not be conclusive, a logical fallacy. I was only trying to illustrate that it wasn’t, and that it oughtn’t be evidence dismissed because it’s inconclusive, just recognized as inconclusive.
by jacobstevens on Nov 24, 2009 12:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Iv, great job. You're a gentleman and a scholar.
by jacobstevens on Nov 24, 2009 12:06 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Who the hell are you calling a gentleman? :)
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by iverson2169 on Nov 24, 2009 4:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

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