Seattle Seahawks Grind Out 27-17 Victory over St. Louis Rams
The Seattle Seahawks won on the road against the Kyle Boller-led St. Louis Rams. The offense was one-dimensional, the defense hardly dominant, but Seattle slowly, convincingly overwhelmed St. Louis and squeezed out its fourth win of the season. That matches last year's total.
The young players are learning. Jordan Babineaux and Aaron Curry trade exciting plays with blown assignments. Brandon Mebane can knife into the pocket, but most pro quarterbacks have the agility to evade him after the initial pressure. Seattle's ends, excluding Patrick Kerney, are talented, young and cheap, but do not create sufficient pressure on their own. The defense lacks an elite pass rusher and should add one through the draft.
The path to contention is long. It will take maturation from its defensive core and, for the first time in Tim Ruskell's career, a new offense. The time is now to stop rebuilding, stop swapping in used parts and patching holes with low-upside polish, and start building an offense from scratch.
Justin Forsett is a lock. Force has proven that Seattle's offensive line is not hopeless, and that he is a part of the offense Seattle wants to become. It's a running offense. It rotates backs, and builds drives off a slicing run attack. Julius Jones is not the problem, but he's not good enough either. Seattle needs talent at its skill positions. Not just running back, but Seattle needs to become younger and faster at wide receiver too.
A reporter asked Jim Mora when Deon Butler would play. Mora said that Butler will play when he's the best player. Butler has six receptions for 56 yards. Third round wide receivers rarely explode on the NFL. They can contribute.
It's a pick like Butler that makes me worry about Ruskell's ability to judge offensive talent. Seattle moved up into the third to draft Butler. But Ruskell has earned the right to start the process. Seattle will be worse before it is better.
Matt Hasselbeck is a game manager. He doesn't lose games like Matthew Stafford or Kyle Boller. Seattle can pick, sack and run its way to a victory against the Rams, but it needs downfield passing to be a contender again. That means a rookie quarterback, and a rookie quarterback means soon the Seahawks will be the team throwing wins away.
Game Ball: Force.
Forsett is a slashing power-back in a too small frame. Seattle will not pound the rock behind Forsett, but it can build a rushing attack around him. The coaches will want to keep Forsett under twenty carries and around twenty total touches. That means finding Forsett a partner. Jones is not a bum. He put up a similar stats against the Rams in week one. Hopefully Seattle learns from Forsett's success and does not blindly feed Forsett the ball. Bring in backs. Audition them for the future. Seattle needs help at running back, and Louis Rankin is not the answer, but Forsett alone is not the answer either.
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189 comments
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Comments
Forsett is a nice fit and should, as you said, have a role on the team.
That might mean that Spiller, Best, etc. are not the choice should we look RB in round 1 or 2. Maybe Dwyer or a later-round power back. Possibly an Anthony Dixon. Maybe a back that fits the every-down role but not specializing in power such as a seemingly well-rounded Ryan Matthews or DeMarco Murray. I’m very curious about this situation.
Fun to watch good running today. I miss the days that I could say “Wow! What a throw”.
by Misfit74 on Nov 29, 2009 1:50 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I still like Spiller as the choice
if we really are going to be commit to an offense dominated by our running game… the kid just looks awesome and could probably also spark special teams. I think it really depends where our two first rounders fall…
by chrees on Nov 29, 2009 2:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep..
I like Spiller too. Pair him with Forsett as a change of pace back, and get Schmitt and Griffith on the same page for short yardage plays and you may be onto something.
The main thing the Hawks need to do (for the offense) is draft a LT, go after a top tier guard in free agency, and rearrange the O-line (maybe LT-Jones (if healthy), Sims or Lock, Unger, (Free Agent), 1st round draft pick, with Lock or Sims as the backup guard, Willis and Frye as the backup tackles, Vallos, and either Wrotto or a mid round draft pick as the other backup guard/center. The O-line needs to worked on no matter what.
by JustinWF on Nov 29, 2009 2:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd prefer not to spend one of our first rounders on a split-time back.
I agree with Misfit that a bigger back, preferably someone with receiving and blocking skills, be found later in the draft.
by djafrot on Nov 29, 2009 2:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
BLOUNT.
Take a chance, make it happen. Mid-round pick with TUP— tremendous upside potential. Instead of getting a quicker back, go BIG.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by whiskey chainsaw on Nov 29, 2009 4:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Very good choice
LaGarrett was predicted in the top 5 running backs going into this season. His haymaker caused suspension should make him drop down into the mid rounds unless he has an exeptional combine. Over 1000 yards last year and 16 tds in a multi back system. He did everything Oregon has asked of him and has been reinstated to the team even though he will not get to see time in a game because of what LaMichael James has done this year. So lets give hime the chance.
ZORN FOR OC
by eofan on Nov 30, 2009 1:16 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't be so quick...
I know, it seems an automatic elimination, however Ruskell has shown a preponderance for giving second chances given the right scenario. Koren Robinson would have never been resigned if past mistakes alone were taken into account exclusively. And I notice we didn’t trade away or wash our hands of Lofa or Leroy.
With Lofa and Leroy, you have two guys who were already known by Ruskell. With Koren you had something else, high recommendation from Holmgren, and a more recent history of trying to rectify past mistakes. LeGarrett fits into the Koren category of a player who erred, but has worked hard to rectify that mistake. He also fits the starter at a major BCS conference qualifiers.
One other thing— I know Ruskell has preached character, but realistically a huge part of a person’s character strength is admitting weakness and moving forward from that point. Also, once you’ve changed the culture in a locker room environment to a point of strength (which I believe the Hawks have done) you can start to take a chance on some guys here and there, and see if the quality of people around them helps them to raise their level. When Ruskell was first brought in, the model of character was the NE franchise, however I’ve seen NE do some things as far as bringing guys in or shipping guys out that wasn’t based on character first, but on talent.
If Ruskell’s job is on the line, it may be time he starts reaching a little for some high talent guys with upside in the character department, instead of character guys with little upside in the talent department. I know it would cross my mind in his shoes, and I support his theory of team construction.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by whiskey chainsaw on Nov 30, 2009 8:16 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Whatever happened to Jonathan Dwyer?
Seems like he’s been quiet
by chrees on Nov 30, 2009 3:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I like Spiller but taking a 150-200 carry RB in the 1st would bother me
I’d be happy taking him in the 2nd. Only problem is that is probably 25 picks picks later than where he actually goes.
by kearly on Nov 29, 2009 5:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I just put up a late game thread
If we had lost that game I would have wanted Seneca starting next week.
Our offense was sloppy but effective with Forsett. The defense blitzed a lot and effectively. Kelly Jennings had his best game as a pro against no-name receivers. Josh Wilson was great and he’s maturing into a good cover corner who can make the big play.
I have hope for this defense.
This offense will be totally different next year.
ME! BANE!
by SSreporters on Nov 29, 2009 1:51 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you.
Hass did not look good today and I think Forsett may have given Hass another week to start. On defense I think we have some good pieces. What I don’t like on defense is how passively we start games. We rarely blitz in the first quarter and it seems that we only start blitzing after team scores a touchdown or two and were down. My point being, is that I think our blitz packages would be more effective if we blitzed often and early in games. We allow QB’s to get comfortable in the pocket and in rythm by sitting back early. So when we do bring our blitzes at opposing QB’s the game has already slowed down for them to make the right reads and accurate throws. I always believe that we should knock QB’s down often and early to get them rattled in the pocket so we can get those happy feet going. Then after bringing lots of pressure on the QB early we should back off a little bit and see if those footsteps are still in the QB’s head, forcing him to rush his reads and have those happy feet in the pocket so when he throws his accuracy is affected. Bollers throwing percentage dipped bigtime after we threw some blitzes at him. The problem is that every QB we face isn’t Boller. The Kurt Warner’s and Farvre’s of the world kill teams once they get comfortable and in the zone. Once they are there it’s no getting them out of it, no matter how many blitzes we throw at them.
by Mr. Blache III on Nov 29, 2009 10:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
God no, not Seneca...
Please please please not Seneca Wallace ever again. I’d rather see Teel be horrible than Seneca run out of bound with a ball, 4 yards back of the LOS when he had ages to throw it away.
by Strictnine on Nov 30, 2009 9:32 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Yes yes yes yes yes
Seneca makes the WORST decisions, and that alone outweighs any tools he may or may not have.
I’d rather see Teel throw left-handed.
The demise of the Broncos in '09 is our future. Pray hard.
by Nick Andron on Nov 30, 2009 10:41 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Great write up, John. If Hass continues his spiral downward
the rest of this season will be ugly.
He seemed to struggle oh so mightily against the oh so woeful Rams. Not sure why … he’s had some great games this year.
Is it possible our receivers just aren’t doing a good enough job of getting open or creating opportunities?
The demise of the Broncos in '09 is our future. Pray hard.
by Nick Andron on Nov 29, 2009 1:51 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I call BS on this
Just because you aren’t open doesn’t mean you can’t throw to that spot. We have Housh and Burleson, who are perfectly capable of snatching 50-50 throws, wasting away and losing catches to the dangerous Justin Griffith.
Hasselbeck has no confidence at all in his downfield throwing unless someone is 10 yards open.
ME! BANE!
by SSreporters on Nov 29, 2009 1:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not so sure about this.
I saw lots of throws today to guys who were “50/50” and they simply didn’t make the play. Housh is one thing but Burly is a chronic dropper of longer throws, particulary in the endzone.
One could make the argument that Matt has lost too much zip, and thus the ball is getting there late, enabling the coverage to get in there.
But I definitely think our WR’s are not making themselves space when they get deep. I have yet to see a Seahawk WR get a clean break deep (at least, that I remember).
by djafrot on Nov 29, 2009 1:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I believe it is your second comment that is the key. No zip=no clean break.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by whiskey chainsaw on Nov 29, 2009 4:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Small sample size, and obviously a biased window of observation,
but I wonder how Housh was so good before. He must just be a great route runner because I don’t see great speed or great hands or great YAC ability. I’m not sure I’ve seen more than one catch where I thought ’that’s a pretty good catch’. I’m not saying that WRs need to make great catches, but you figure one of the top WRs in the league would be better at catching the ball and make a 50/50 or a 33/66 catch once in a while.
by LantermanC on Nov 29, 2009 10:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you
I do think Housh has good hands though.
by Mr. Blache III on Nov 29, 2009 11:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Very good hands
he has. He’s made some awesome catches this season that your average wide receiver just doesn’t make.
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
by Cheddar28 on Nov 30, 2009 2:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I know of his reputation for having good hands, but this season, I have not noticed many difficult catches.
Could just be me.
by LantermanC on Nov 30, 2009 3:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm with you.
Rapid decline maybe, I dunno. Could be the QB and the line. All 3 are deficient in some way.
by jacobstevens on Nov 30, 2009 3:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What evidence is there of rapid decline?
by John Morgan on Nov 30, 2009 3:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know.
Maybe none. Just speculating. Just mentioning that I feel what Lanterman’s feeling.
by jacobstevens on Nov 30, 2009 4:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It isn't even good to speculate that
He’s had a good season given the fact Hasselbeck and Seneca have been piss-poor. I’m not looking for difficult catches regardless. For the most part he’s avoided the dropsies that we suffered in 2004 to the tune of 2 drops in the entire season. Unless it’s glaringly obvious (Koren) that you are incapable of performing then the receivers are as good as the QBs that throw it to them.
ME! BANE!
by SSreporters on Nov 30, 2009 4:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
it's just an observation.
It’s germane, and I can’t help it. I see what I see, a guy that looks like Derrick Mason right now. He looks like he’s not moving well. I think he does the right things and there’s separation, but diminished. But most notably, it seems to develop late. Maybe that’s the line. But it’s not as helpful as it could be if it developed earlier. Just going by feel.
He’s still getting some numbers production, but it doesn’t seem to be as helpful to the team.
And none of my feelings are about difficult catches.
Just looked through his DYAR through the years. The numbers strongly suggest decline. But not rapid in any way. I don’t have a great frame of reference on him before us, beyond highlights, and that week 3 game against us in 2007. Just a few other games & instances. But it feels underwhelming compared to how I saw him from the other side of the field.
by jacobstevens on Nov 30, 2009 4:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hass doesn't have much time to throw
Both tackles were getting blown up on the 2nd play of the game. The run blocking was good but the pass blocking is still abysmal, but not as bad as the Rams.
And why is everybody still so high on Housh? Guy is slow and can’t get any separation. For all the money Ruskell has thrown at that position they’re still mediocre at best.
by Badmotostinkfinger on Nov 29, 2009 2:07 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Yes he didn't have a good game
But however I saw the Rams double team Houshmandzadeh with a safety and that left Burleson open for first downs. Stats don’t show it, but Houshmandzadeh is definitely making an impact for our team even when he doesn’t catch a ball.
by Seahawksfan23 on Nov 29, 2009 3:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Is Force fast enough?
Who the heck cares? He’s GOOD ENOUGH and that is what matters. He sees the hole and hits it. He can make people miss. That is two things that JJ simply does not or can not do. Force should be the starter, Jones can spell him.
by mrcoffee1969 on Nov 29, 2009 2:10 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
What this team needs?
Plain and simple the team needs to build up the O and D lines, but I keep seeing it is mainly on Matt and that he is done and needs to move on, am I missing something? When your O-line can’t stop pass rushes (against the likes of the Rams), and your WR’s seem to be in the wrong spots (not like in a Holmgren offense), you can’t really put more than a “fair share” of the blame on the QB (just like any other position).
I saw a team that could FINALLY RUN THE BALL today, and guess what happened, they won (ask Favre how well a running game helps your team). You have to be able to run to throw and throw to run they go hand in hand. Matt is not an elite QB (never was) but he can still be a good QB if the team does some things with the O-line (Like get one), and the running game is a part of the game plan and not just an after thought. One guy can’t win or lose a game for a team, but all 11 guys (on one side of the ball) not playing together will lose you games.
If and when the team invests in some O-line talent you will see a QB (either with Matt or someone else) and a offense that moves the ball and scores some points against good teams, but Matt is not to blame for the good or the bad all by himself this year.
by JustinWF on Nov 29, 2009 2:13 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I don't think anyone is blaming solely Matt, even if it sounds like it.
Though I do agree that he’s taking more than his fair share of guff.
I think the situation is that we’re looking to the future, and Matt is clearly not part of that future. Sure, he could hang around for another year or two, but it would be a risky year or two, and that would slow the development of our future quarterback.
What you’re seeing from the likes of John and other FG writers is an expression of this concern. Certainly they (and others here) have issues with other parts of the team, notably DT and DE, as well as various OL spots, but the worry is that the Seahawks’ front office goes another year without showing the inclination to move forward at quarterback.
by djafrot on Nov 29, 2009 2:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The NFL has morphed into a passing league and Matt doesn't seem to have the arm to throw further than 10 yards anymore.
He’s a liability moving forward.
by BrianL on Nov 29, 2009 2:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The Hawks finally ran the ball today and Hasselbeck still sucked
by Nate Dogg on Nov 29, 2009 2:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Once again
when the team ran the O-line was good (not great) and Forsett made plays where there were none. When the O-line pass blocked they SUCKED. I have rewatched some of the game I DVR’ed and the O-line SUCKED. Spencer was getting blown up, Willis looks like his feet are in mud on pass coverage, and Lock still looks hurt (or maybe that is just him at LT). Sims played well at LG with a few mistakes, and Unger is still green so he gave up some bad plays as well.
As the Announcers said, “when given time, Matt is still a very good QB”, like it or not that is the truth. He can’t run the routs for the WR’s, he can’t block for the O-linemen, and he can’t call all the plays (which he should in my book). He was never a top 5 QB in this league (he wasn’t), but even at 33 he is still a top 12 QB when given 3-4 seconds to throw the ball.
Do the Seahawks need to start looking for a QB of the future, yep, do I think Matt is done, nope. He can still play for 2-3 years (as a starter or backup) and to say that his stats are all his fault (wether they are good or bad) is crazy. So much goes into what a QB’s stats are at the end of a game, that you can’t say they are all on him, because they are not.
by JustinWF on Nov 29, 2009 3:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The idea that everyone around Hasselbeck suddenly sucks but Hasselbeck is just fine is hilarious
by Nate Dogg on Nov 29, 2009 3:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This is almost like how the minority defended Shaun
Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
ME! BANE!
by SSreporters on Nov 29, 2009 3:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So is the counter argument coming out of FG quite often...
…that the entire offense is playing just fine, but Matt is suddenly awful.
I know that you guys aren’t necessarily saying this, but to a lot of people who aren’t here all the time, it probably sounds exactly like that. I see way more whining about Matt than i do about anyone else. It’s like this board can only focus on one problem at a time. One week its’ Colin Cole, the next it’s Jennings, the next it’s Vallos. Any anyone who differs is hounded into submission.
by djafrot on Nov 29, 2009 3:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I should have replied to a comment about Matt Hasselbeck with a comment about Colin Cole?
by Nate Dogg on Nov 29, 2009 3:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not speaking of your exact post.
That should be obvious. It’s more the tendency of the regulars on this board to stifle any discussion of topics that appear to be “dead”.
For example, right now, according to this board, Matt is simply incapable of throwing more than ten yards. I’ve seen no discussion, AT ALL, that perhaps it might be a result of the WR’s not getting open, or Matt’s lack of time. I myself have seen very little ability of this crew of WR’s to get any deep seperation, and other people have shown evidence that our OL is simply not pass-blocking particularly well. And yet, everything comes down to Matt’s arm, and anyone who argues differently is nit-picked to death.
by djafrot on Nov 29, 2009 4:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not trying to stiffle any discussion
if you can explain to me why Sims, Spencer and Locklear were fine as pass blockers in 07 but suck today I’d love to hear it. If you’d like to make an argument that our line is bad based on something other than Matt not getting 4 seconds to throw every play then make it. If you can explain why Housh went from 90 catches with Fitzpatrick last season but can’t get open with Hasselbeck this season then go right ahead and prove me wrong.
I love Hasselbeck, I own his jersey and he’ll always be on my short list of all time favorites. If you can make a case that he’s not terrible than I’d be completely open to hearing it.
by Nate Dogg on Nov 29, 2009 4:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't like this comment
In not trying to stiffle any discussion I sound like a dick
by Nate Dogg on Nov 29, 2009 4:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Haha, I'll be clearer.
I’m not saying it’s any one person’s particular fault. It seems to be a thing particular to internet boards where there’s a cadre of “main” posters who all talk all the time and pretty much agree on certain things… and then some whippersnapper pops up with a different opinion and gets hammered with brisk, terse comments that really don’t offer an explanation but shut down his opinion.
Most of the time those regulars are right, but frequently (to me) it seems like other factors are downplayed. I don’t know if this is some unconscious desire to not see the place degenerate into your typical crappy forum, but to me it’s frustrating.
by djafrot on Nov 29, 2009 4:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's a phenomenon brought about by
the fact that the “whippersnappers” pop up all the time. Different people, same question. So the argument gets made a few times, people decide on a certain way, and then the argument keeps being brought up over and over again by new people. This leads to terse one liner replies, because regulars are tired of having the same discussion with the same results. Not laying blame, just stating what I observe.
by Fear on Nov 29, 2009 4:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, this sounds right.
But isn’t the point of a place like this not to exclude, but to include? Instead of replying to a whipper’s comment with a terse one-liner, why not point to one of John’s excellent posts on the topic from the past?
Sometimes I get the feeling this place is less democratic than most… though I guess that’s how you keep the riffraff out, right?
by djafrot on Nov 29, 2009 4:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So we "regulars" should keep a long list of links ready
to give to people when they ask the same question that should already be asked, instead of pointing them to the “search” feature of the site?
Just saying. Too often people don’t look first, they just wade right in and start commenting, and they typically aren’t looking for rebuke or even a response that they’re wrong or even maybe not very right.
They say, “I see it this way, and this is correct, and I don’t care what you’ve seen or think” as a way to convince us. Then they say, “It’s just because you are all here together that you think this, and you are trying to side against us new people.”
Not always of course, just providing an alternate take…
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by whiskey chainsaw on Nov 29, 2009 5:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait, what?
So new posters have to go through the whole board’s various takes on an issue before posting on a game thread? You’re kidding, right?
Is John’s, or Brian’s, or abender’s, or whomever’s views Gospel? (Heh, John the Gospel). Because it sure feels like it sometimes.
Anyhow, it’s not that big of a deal, it just seems like something that pops up quite frequently, and I can see why some new people get frustrated.
by djafrot on Nov 29, 2009 5:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously I gave detailed answer here on your and justin's points...
So we don’t always do that. I’m simply saying that there is a lot of that.
Did you know that many SB nation sites make a person wait anywhere from a day to several before making their first post? I’m not saying that needs to happen here, just saying that a lot of people wade right in and fire right out.
I don’t always agree with everybody here, but everyone gets frustrated sometimes, new and old alike. Such is life.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by whiskey chainsaw on Nov 29, 2009 5:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I would never say always!
Yes, ’tis life.
by djafrot on Nov 29, 2009 7:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A single post that would make my point doesn't really come to mind
A lot of discussion gets dragged out across several posts. The Hasselbeck discussion has been going on since the Dallas game last season.
My original comment wasn’t meant to be terse but succinct. He said look what happens when you can run the ball and I pointed out that Matt was still bad.
by Nate Dogg on Nov 29, 2009 5:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I suppose I'm a "regular" by your definition.
I’m not in favor of “group think” at all, but I can tell you this while watching every hawks game at sportsbars this year. The only QB I’ve seen with a weaker arm than Hasselbeck that began the year as starting QB’s for their teams were Pennington and Shaun Hill.
There is no zip, no power on his throws. Yes he’ll still throw a long pass, but he has little accuracy as he does so, and he has to “heave” while other qb’s fire those throws.
And another thing— his lack of zip has led to less touch on his midrange and even short route passing. This lack of touch has made him hesitant to try to squeeze it into narrow windows and leads to his sudden excess of check downs to the FB. I also think this is part of the reason Knapp calls so many screen passes— because he is well aware of Hasselbeck’s limitation and is doing his best to overcome it.
Aaron Rodgers has the worst line in football, yet he doesn’t seem to have a problem putting up HUGE numbers. I bet he would switch lines with us in a heartbeat. There are guys all across the league that get hurried all the time, and yet still put up solid numbers. Schaub is another that comes to mind that seems to get hit a lot, yet still puts up solid numbers.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by whiskey chainsaw on Nov 29, 2009 4:46 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Hmm.
I agree that his arm isn’t strong, and certainly it affects his ability to go deep with accuracy.
I’d argue that Knapp’s calling of screens has more to do with negating the pass rush (since the pass blocking isn’t there) and giving an alternative to the lack of a run game. Calling screens actually only brings the corners up shorter, making short passes more difficult.
As for Rodgers, sure, he’s one of the best QB’s in the league. But saying Matt isn’t Aaron Rodgers isn’t saying Matt’s awful. Also… Rodgers has solid, solid deep receivers, as does Schaub.
by djafrot on Nov 29, 2009 4:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My point with both Rodgers and Schaub is
that their lines are suspect, and yet they have prodigious numbers. I see blame that should be going to Matt going to the OLine now. Don’t get me wrong, the OL has deserved plenty of scorn, but the last couple games with what I think is our future starting OL, we’ve looked decent.
The screen argument is chicken/egg. You say it is pass rush, I say teams are allowed to stack the lines because (even with corners up) they know they can stand to stay in single coverage on the outsides with a single safety back because Hasselbeck likely can’t hurt them. So they load the line and short zone areas and blitz excessively.
And Matt’s lack of arm strength isn’t just affecting the deep throw anymore, it’s affecting ALL ROUTES. This is the difference between this year’s Matt and past years. He’s a true warrior, and is giving his absolute best, but he’s running on fumes at this point.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by whiskey chainsaw on Nov 29, 2009 5:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
2 years in the NFL is an eternity.
The Browns were really good in ’07.
by Badmotostinkfinger on Nov 29, 2009 5:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Just to take the bait on this
There was Walter Jones in 2007 and the team transitioned to a zone blocking scheme this year, which was moderately new for the respected line coach as well.
On the Laurinaitis sack, Forsett was at fault by committing to a gap too early and getting out of position while L shot through the next gap over. And Sims was on the other side of the line and he’s not responsible for that sack. But I noticed that Locklear had no one in his zone so helped out on the end that Sims had, taking the brunt of the engagement and did fine with it. With more savvy, Sims could have anticipated the possibility of, or read, the empty zone right along with Locklear, read that Lock was handling it, passed the man to him fully and moved over.
That’s a lot of words to describe it, but it could happen in an instant and still be effective. Sims’ A gap with Spencer was the biggest gap on the line that play. More proactive shifting of the line — I admit I don’t know how feasible that really becomes, I don’t think the Colts’ or Broncos’ pass blockers assimilated or anything — could have closed the gap Laurinaitis came through, or could have pushed it right to make it a longer route.
Just one example of how even beyond mid-season, we haven’t mastered the system yet.
Re: Matt, I think the 10 yard arm strength discussion is overblown. He has lost velocity and it’s substantially limited what he is able to do, what he is willing to do, and what the scheme opens up for him. It’s a problem.
One of many. He’s not the same Matt, with a team that won’t deliver for him. And he’s not slowly choking the life out of a franchise through the muscle atrophy of his right arm. It’s just one more problem and it prevents him from raising the capability of the team, that’s all.
by jacobstevens on Nov 30, 2009 12:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe...
I dont know if I can expect Sims to leave a block for Lock, and abandon his assignment mid play.
In theory, Sims should have known pre-snap that Lock was going to take his man, allowing him to cover that A gap LB. My guess is either the play held the LT and LG in rigid assignments or the adjustment was not made on the line.
If I can get 9-10 year olds making line calls between them correctly, I do not see why the Seahawks cant. Blown assignments are mental errors, missed calls or a clever defender fooling you. Laurinaitis is a rookie.
What I’M seeing game after game is multiple errors in plays, and that makes you ineffective. The RB commits early, the line call is missed or botched, the receivers cant separate, the QB cant gun the ball in and the TE cant be out for an easy 5-6 because he’s held back to block.
My non-NFL quality eye says Forsett is for real, Hass is either still injured and if he’s not, he’s done, and our WR’s are not helping us.
by Strictnine on Nov 30, 2009 1:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Passing your man to another blocker is not a novel concept.
It happens, and it’s more useful for ZBS when you’re blocking a space rather than an assigned man. They don’t get assignments, they get space, and respond accordingly as things unfold. The end that Sims got, due to his twisting in, meant Locklear was free, inherently. Sims engaged with him, but Locklear was the one who held him up.
If it was hat on hat, he’d have had a step on Locklear to the inside and Lock would be reaching to the side to contain him. The zone allowed Sims to take him on, in his space, without overextending himself, because he wasn’t committed to taking on the next guy over.
He didn’t make the wrong decision. I can just see that he could make a better decision, and faster, and hope to see something of the sort the next time this comes up, when it might actually be the difference in the play. Just pointing out that there’s still room for a lot of improvement in grasping the ZBS. Though we cut blocked the hell out of the Rams, very effectively, that is a nice development (as much as I hate cut blocking).
I am with you on the lapses in execution, and Forsett Hass & the line, all the way.
by jacobstevens on Nov 30, 2009 1:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah you're right, and I think we're arguing the same point
from opposite ends…
I think what we’re arriving at is that Sims could have negated Laurinaitis if he’d made a better decision. In effect, if he’d blocked his zone, rather that a man on, its a different result?
by Strictnine on Nov 30, 2009 3:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt it, actually.
It was just a recent example off the top of my head, to illustrate that there’s room to grow yet. I don’t think for this particular play Sims could have stopped Laurinaitis, he seemed decidated perhaps by assignment to the gap he took.
by jacobstevens on Nov 30, 2009 3:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If Hasselbeck could still throw a medium ball I suspect that people would not be bitching about the line nearly as much.
by BrianL on Nov 29, 2009 3:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree.
I also do think Matt has lost some off his mid-range ball. I also think that all his injuries play a little into that. With that said, he was never a deep passer, and when you lose a little on your mid-range ball, you may not be a full-time QB anymore.
I still like the guy in the right system, but he needs a good running game, and a O-line that can give him 3-4 seconds to throw. I think the Hawks may want to look for a little more mobile QB when they draft one if they are not going ot put the money into the O-line they need to.
by JustinWF on Nov 29, 2009 4:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No offensive line in the world is going to make up for a quarterback that can't throw the ball past ten yards.
by BrianL on Nov 29, 2009 4:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If you think Matt can’t throw a good ball between 15-25 yards than I can’t argue with you. He is still an NFL level QB and he can make throws when given time.
If you really think he can’t throw over 10 yards, than you and I are watching a different game.
by JustinWF on Nov 29, 2009 4:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think what he's saying is that Matt can't throw deep with accuracy
or zip.
I don’t really see this. I see a QB that doesn’t trust his blocking or his WR’s and is hesistant to push the ball into midrange territory.
He may certainly be hurt, and it may be hurting his arm, but I never saw his arm strength as being a huge part of his game anyhow. Like John said, he may be an OK game manager, but in the long term we need to move on.
by djafrot on Nov 29, 2009 4:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
See my post a little above...
But bottom line, he can’t hit throws with any accuracy anymore, and is a shell of the guy he used to be. If you can’t see this, you and Justin are watching a different game than the rest of us.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by whiskey chainsaw on Nov 29, 2009 4:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's funny..
That you think it is mainly Matts fault. I never once said Matt is not part of the blame for a poor offense, but at the same time if he can’t throw the ball beacuse the O-line can’t block, or a WR runs the wrong route, is it all Matts fault, NO!
Also if your trying to tell me that guys like Spencer, Lock, Willis, Branch, Housh, Griffith, Jones (Julius), are making the offense better, then I don’t get you point. Matt’s one of eleven guys, just like it was never all Alexanders fault (he couldn’t run) it’s not all Matts fault he can’t plant and throw the ball when a O-line gives him ZERO time to throw, or if a WR can’t get away from coverage it’s not on Matt. The guy is one player, and like I said, he was never an elite QB just a good one, and when given time he is still good.
I’m with most in that the team needs to look for a future QB, but it is never one players fault, last I checked this is not tennis where it is all on ONE PLAYER, it is on 11 plus the head coach, and OC.
by JustinWF on Nov 29, 2009 3:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Justin, if you put Aaron Rodgers with our line and WR's, he'd be just as good
if not better. Most QB’s in this league would be better with our offensive talent around them than they are with their own.
Our OLine is actually healthy for once, and while it isn’t the world-beaters of 05, it is a fair to middling group. Not great, not terrible. Just average, but I am hoping with some upside still to be improved upon.
Our problem is that this offense is centered around above average to elite QB play, and it needs that to be successful. We’re getting average at best qb play, and it is stifling the entire offense.
Housh, Burleson, even Branch, certainly Carlson are all excellent options. Throw in Forsett’s pass catching ability and even Griffith’s and you have one of the best receiving corps in all of football. But the guy getting them the ball can’t take advantage of their skillsets, and the defense is loading up in the shallow areas because of it.
Also— you say “it is never one player’s fault” etc. Hate to break it to you, but the QB has always gotten the lion’s share of the credit, and the blame. That’s just the way it is, particularly when the offense is funneled through requiring that player more than any other to perform up to or beyond expectations.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by whiskey chainsaw on Nov 29, 2009 4:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think anyone is saying that...
Sam Bradford, future Seattle Seahawk.
by Carl Shinyama on Nov 29, 2009 6:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
With due respect John,
I question whether Ruskell has “earned the right” to start the process. I’m not suggesting he’s to be run out of town with a torch baring mob chasing after him either. If Allen and Leiweke determine he is in fact, the guy to oversee the rebuilding of this offense, then so be it. But nothing in his history nor his tenure here would indicate, to me, that this is a strength of his. Personally, I’m skeptical that he has done anything that would warrant handing him the reigns (a.k.a a new contract) without exploring other options.
I'm gonna go calm submissive on your ass.
by Dukeshire on Nov 29, 2009 2:51 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
After watching the last couple of drafts, I'd have to say that Ruskell has indeed earned the right.
Sam Bradford, future Seattle Seahawk.
by Carl Shinyama on Nov 29, 2009 3:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
How so?
I'm gonna go calm submissive on your ass.
by Dukeshire on Nov 29, 2009 3:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Ruskell is in Seattle's plans for the future but
he has done good in the draft. Even in the first rounds. I don’t know why a lot of people criticize his 1st round picks. The only bad one he picked was Kelly Jennings who still has a chance to start once again in his career. There’s a reason why Chris Spencer is our starting center for the last 3 years, Lawrence Jackson has showed up, and Aaron Curry is still a work in progress but he has a bright future. Saying that he sucks in free agency and I’m still excited to see if we in fact do get a new GM after this season.
by Seahawksfan23 on Nov 29, 2009 3:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Including Jackson, Jennings and Curry isn't relevant to this conversation.
This is about rebuilding the offense. The Spencer argument loses some value when they drafted Unger to, by accounts, be the center of the future. If we’re now discussing 1sts, Branch must be included. That was met with a great deal of skepticism at the time and has not gotten much better in reflection. Ruskell is at his best, IMO, when he is in a position to fill holes, not construct the dam. Again, I have seen nothing that would indicate he is capable of building from the ground up. Certainly on the offensive side of the ball.
I'm gonna go calm submissive on your ass.
by Dukeshire on Nov 29, 2009 3:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
They are most definitely relevant
We’re talking about Ruskell right? We’re talking about the ups and downs of Ruskell. Like I said there is a reason why Spencer is still starting for us. I don’t know why, you don’t know why but our coaches most definitely do. Heck there was a reason why they still kept Russell on the team for so long. Max Unger was brought in to add relief to our thin line and be a Porkchop Womack for us. And sure the Branch trade was a failure. No doubt about it. But you can’t judge a GM based on one thing. Now I’m not defending Ruskell at all, I think he should go after this season but he isn’t like a Phil Savage or even Al Davis like some people treat him. And I said that he is terrible in free agency and Ruskell has only selected one offensive player in the draft which is Chris Spencer so obviously he’s not good on the offensive side of the ball.
by Seahawksfan23 on Nov 29, 2009 7:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't believe the Branch trade was a failure.
I just don’t believe it was a huge success. It was a break even move that happened. Somewhere on this thread, there is a link to John’s evaluation of it, and it is a pretty sound one overall.
Also, Carlson is an offensive player, as is Unger, and Forsett as well, in the last couple drafts. Unless you are referring to first round picks, which is different.
His FA pick ups have had some value as well, even if not all are wild successes. The guy has been average thus far, HOWEVER, I would say much of his “averageness” has been the result of bad breaks, not bad process.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by whiskey chainsaw on Nov 29, 2009 8:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Notice I said first round picks
I think the Branch trade has been a failure. Branch has done nothing we expected from him when he arrived here. And yea I see what you mean on Ruskell’s avergeness. I don’t think any of the free agents we picked up have been fantastic for us at all.
by Seahawksfan23 on Nov 29, 2009 9:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And we are not talking about the ups and downs of Ruskell.
We are talking about his ability to rebuild an offense. Something he has no experience at or has shown any aptitude toward, IMO.
I'm gonna go calm submissive on your ass.
by Dukeshire on Nov 29, 2009 9:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Absence of evidence, not evidence of absence
we have pretty limited resources to judge, for offense. That alone constitutes an indictment to many, but there were reasons for it. Maybe it was the wrong approach, but the approach was more of a macro-level decision, combined with some demonstrated restraint in terms of BPA vs. reaching, that led to defensive stockpiling.
I believe he’s earned the right because I believe he made the right macro decisions on what to do with this team. Build a defense for an offense in its prime. Sustain the window by supplementing the core. Now the window can’t be kept open by a couple of right picks that contribute right away. The transition to the new model has already begun. Each year up to and including 2008, personnel acquisition was allocated in substantial portion to the Holmgren model.
Hard to transition to a new model when a draft has 7 rounds but a roster has 53 men. Ruskell said it’s a 2-year plan. Spinning a case for his job, of course, but how can we expect anything more? Coaches, scheme, players, have been paid for for this model. The risk-reward proposition to me makes a lot more sense in giving just a little more time, 2 years, to see what develops here than to blow up and start again, we’d really be selling low with what we have that’s liquifiable at all.
by jacobstevens on Nov 30, 2009 12:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm inclined to keep Ruskell through this next season...
you cant replace coaches and GMs when a plan set in place a year ago results in 4-7 instead of 7-4. We’re not 1-10. We can beat bad teams, we just cant beat good teams. This makes us mediocre. Mediocre teams do best to stick with the plan until its obvious the plan is flawed (the Raiders, Matt Millen). New Orleans and Cincinatti are good examples of this thinking. Ruskell needs to hit bullseyes on this draft, if he misses… or if his picks are even mediocre, he should be replaced. If the draft and FA moves result in a likely improvement, then great. If not, thats when we start screaming for his head.
by Strictnine on Nov 30, 2009 1:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You can still believe in the plan and determine that the GM's talent evaluation isn't up to snuff
Ruskell inherited problems, but I’m not sure he’s solved that many either. To plug issues in pass defense, he’s gone through a variety of players, from Brian Russell to Ken Lucas to Kelly Herndon to Deon Grant etc. The result? In 2009, the Seahawks are still awful in pass defense. Some of this is undoubtedly due to poor pass rush, but that’s not exactly exculpatory.
Forget the drafts; the debates are still raging, and even if you think he’s some sort of draft genius, his ability with free agents has to arouse some concern. The team spends a lot of money on a RB (Jones) who’s clearly not a substantial improvement on his cheap back-up. The team spends plenty on a DT (Cole) who’s not worth the money. On the line, you’ve got Locklear making a lot of money, with Wahle getting a large contract for ‘08. The receivers have garnered a lot of attention, with Branch and Colbert combining for two poor contracts in ’08, and Housh/Branch providing a bit more production for yet more money in ’09 (I think; haven’t seen the final ‘09 numbers). Is anyone all that convinced that Ruskell’s the right guy to supplement the roster with key FAs? Is anyone convinced that the team’s using its resources optimally, or even acceptably? Set the draft aside for a minute – do you like what the team’s done outside the draft?
The more I look at the roster construction, the more I see echoes of the Bavasi regime. That’s going to come off harsher than I intend it, but setting the Fontaine drafts aside (which were a mixed bag, really… a stellar 06 neutered by the Bedard trade around decent but not all that good ‘05 and ’07s), Bavasi continually devoted resources towards players who weren’t producing at the level they were being paid. That typifies the Hawks in ’08 and ’09.
by marc w on Dec 1, 2009 12:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No, you didn't.
“Ruskell has only selected one offensive player in the draft which is Chris Spencer.”
I can’t find “first round picks” anywhere in your post. Sorry, I didn’t understand what you meant to type.
On Branch, you should temper your expectation with reality. Did you check the link? I’m not saying it’s been a rousing success, just that it hasn’t been a complete failure either. An awful lot of WR’s have come and gone since then in the NFL that were late 1st round picks— the spot we traded to get him.
http://www.fieldgulls.com/2009/7/7/941070/the-deion-branch-trade-three-years.
Kerney was pretty fantastic for a year. Grant has been very good. There are others, but rarely does a FA transform a franchise…
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by whiskey chainsaw on Nov 30, 2009 12:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh my bad
Yeah I just looked back and I said that. That’s my mistake and I meant in the first round. I can totally see the Branch trade as not a complete failure but he hasn’t done a lot for us. Just the 4 TD’s he’s had every year he’s been here. And you can’t rely on him to stay healthy at all. Ever since he injured his calf it’s been downhill for him. And your right FA’s don’t transform a franchise but they should at least impact a franchise and Kerney and Grant have done that. But what about Russell? Pollard? J. Jones? Colbert?
by Seahawksfan23 on Nov 30, 2009 7:45 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Branch trade was failure
1st rd pick for Branch vs. a 4th Round pick for Moss. That simply explains why there organization is where it is and ours is where it is. That being said I don’t think Ruskell has done only bad work here. He’s made some good picks and decisions too. But he has busted in the 1st round during his tenure and in trades. Kolbert deal, I’m still not happy about the Redding deal either.
by Mr. Blache III on Nov 30, 2009 7:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Ruskell hasn’t done a bad job but he certainly hasn’t done a good job either. He has had his ups and downs but he is not able to rebuild a franchise. Kolbert deal was a ripoff and so was the Redding deal as well. I feel as if we could have gotten more then just Redding and a 5th round pick for Julian Peterson.
by Seahawksfan23 on Nov 30, 2009 7:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The Kolbert deal was poor.
That one I will agree 100% on. It was only a 5th rounder, though. However, that pick actually turned into Johnny Knox (pick traded to CHI), who I wouldn’t mind having.
However, at the time we were in a world of shit in regard to WR, and they thought he could be a legit answer, for a 5th rounder. Not the end of the world.
Now if they would have traded a 1st or 2nd for Kolbert, THAT would have been bad process and bad result…
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by whiskey chainsaw on Nov 30, 2009 8:45 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, if you think you could get more
than a 5th rounder and a starting DE/DT type for an aging high priced rush linebacker you’re dreaming.
Only NE could have done better, and only if they were trading with Oakland.
I’m sure they tried to get more for him, and found they were unable. I’m mostly happy with the Curry trade, but I go back and forth when you take the whole scenario into account. However, I do think it was a solid justifiable move. I just think that like most of Ruskell’s moves, they process has been better than the result.
Guys, I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but we’ve been pretty snakebit lately. Don’t blame the GM and think a new GM will have magic juju that makes things go brilliantly right just because we’re somehow due.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by whiskey chainsaw on Nov 30, 2009 8:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The 4th round pick for Moss, along with anything involving NE and Oakland are flukes.
It’s unfair to expect any GM to manage what NE has managed against NE. At that point in time, Moss was a malcontent and people wondered if his skills and talent had eroded, along with concern about his high cost both financially and locker-room wise. Otherwise why didn’t someone else offer a 3rd rounder for him, or a 2nd?
To sum up the difference between the two in such “simple” terms is unfair to everyone involved.
Let’s look at another NE receiver— Wes Welker. Maybe the Patriots are idiots, they overpayed for Welker. They gave up a 2nd and a 7th for a player they could have had out of college as an undrafted FA. Why didn’t they sign him then? And what’s the difference between a 2nd round pick for Welker and a 1st for Branch, compared to how things turned out?
One guy got injured, the other has been healthy.
And, just to add depth to this comparison, let’s talk about NE and WR’s. Know who Chad Jackson is? He was the 2nd WR drafted in 2006, and is currently NOT IN THE LEAGUE. This guy was grabbed by the brilliant NE brain trust after NE traded up 16 spots, giving up their 3rd rounder to make the deal with GB and get GB’s draft slot.
When did NE make this brilliant move? The year after the lost Branch in trade, trying to replace him. You could easily say the trade of Branch cost NE a 2nd and 3rd picks.
Oh, and in the 2005 Draft, you could say we blew it. One pick after our trade Roddy White went to ATL. Or, you could say we got lucky with Branch but unlucky with his injury concerns.
2005 Draft WR’s:
Braylon Edwards, 3rd
Troy Williamson, 7th
Mike Williams, 10th
Matt Jones, 21st
Mark Clayton, 22nd
Roddy White, 27th
Reggie Brown, 35th
Mark Bradley, 39th
Roscoe Parrish, 55th
Terrance Murphy, 58th
Vincent Jackson, 61st
Courtney Roby, 68th
Chris Henry, 83rd
That’s just the first 3 rounds, in what was deemed a “deep” WR class. How many of those guys are even still in the league? How many signed large contracts and delivered LESS than Branch? How many could have helped us immediately in a SB run as rookies?
The only 3 I would take TODAY ahead of him, even with Branch’s history of injury and muddled performance, would be Roddy White, Vincent Jackson, and 3rd overall pick Braylon. And yet I’d grumble about Braylon with his history of drops, high payment and mediocre uninspired performance.
You cannot view the Branch trade in hindsight and dislike it without admitting we needed a WR and he was available and performing well at the time, and few of the guys we could have drafted in place of the pick given up have done ANYTHING at all. Injures sapped his performance, but he did not have a history of injuries. Sometimes good moves don’t work out, but you can’t blame the process for the result when bad luck strikes.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by whiskey chainsaw on Nov 30, 2009 8:41 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
err.. "manage what NE has managed against OAK", not against themselves...
Also a couple other small spelling/grammar errors… my bad.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by whiskey chainsaw on Nov 30, 2009 8:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sorry I have to disagree with you on this one.
The Branch deal was horrible. Just like the Peterson and Kolbert deals were too. Branch hadn’t had a 1000 yard receiving year leading up to that trade. He was not worth a #1 pick. He has never had a 1000 yd receiving season in his career. He was close once with 998 but not over the hump. Our own Darrell Jackson had 3 plus 1000 yd receiving seasons (Drafted in the 3rd Rd by Holmgren) and had only missed 3 games leading up that year. As I recall the trade was made when Jackson was hurt. New England took advantage of our #1 WR being out but so did Ruskell. It was well documented that Ruskell really didn’t want to be tied down to D-Jack and this was his way of preparing for his departure the following season. It makes some sense but it illustrates where Ruskell has gone wrong with trades for replacements. He let D-Jack go for a 5th round pick, a guy who had 3 1000yd seasons and should’ve gotten more for him then a 5th round pick. We didn’t need to get rid of D-Jack in my opinion. I look at that deal as a swap of D-Jack for Branch with us giving up a 1st Rd pk and receiving a 5th Rd pick. There’s no way in hell I would make that deal. I wouldn’t have even made the deal of D-Jack for Branch straight up without throwing in the swap of 1st Rd Pk and a 5th Rd pick. Plus we traded D-Jack to a division rival which is another criticism in itself. But back to my point. Why would you assume that we would’ve have to take a WR with the 1st Rd pick we traded away to the Pats. That pick could’ve been used in other areas of need rather then WR, since it was an overall weak draft at that position. Ruskell repeated that mistake with the Peterson deal for Redding, by getting lesser talent while creating a void at LB that he now had to fill unnecessarily with our #4 pick when we had more pressing needs on offense. Just like our 1st Rd pick in the Branch deal could’ve been used on something else, our #4 pick from last year could’ve been used on another position other then LB. Contract issues with Peterson I don’t want to hear about either in this argument. Once Peterson got to expensive for his play we could always release him just like we will this year with Kerney. I have no problems with releasing players. The Pats do it all the time. Ruskell has done some good but in trades and 1st Rd picks he has flat out whiffed. And whiffed more then Holmgren. There’s no way you can defend the Branch deal as far as I’m concerned.
by Mr. Blache III on Nov 30, 2009 9:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Correction.
Branch did miss games more then 3 games the year before.
by Mr. Blache III on Nov 30, 2009 9:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, we disagree on multiple fronts...completely.
I put my thoughts up there. I read your response and disagree on several points, but the fact that you have one long body makes it hard to break down and respond, or even find separate points, and I’m not going to work that hard to retort.
I will hit one or two. Darrel Jackson was nearly done, and was out of the league within 2 years. I’d say trading him to a rival who got less than 16 games out of him is a steal, and it was a 4th not a 5th, unless I’m mistaken.
And I assume we needed to take a WR soon because we didn’t have any young talent that could stay healthy and we had older FA signing type guys and a falling apart DJack (who again, was out of the league in 18 games) .
I’m just saying WR is a complete crap-shoot, moreso than most positions, and at the time the deal was made it was a good idea for a veteran team with a window to the SB, and even post-fact Branch has turned out better than many of the guys on the list of draftable available talent.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by whiskey chainsaw on Nov 30, 2009 11:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We still disagree but I understand your point.
Sorry for the big body. My point is that we wouldn’t have needed Branch if we planned on keeping D-Jack. I don’t think if he stayed with us his fortunes would’ve been as bad. He hadn’t had that many years in the league. Only 1 or 2 more then Branch but with way more production.
Secondly, it was a 4th Round pick..you were right. I do understand why we made the move because we were trying to return to the SB. But Ruskells character issues probably didn’t allow him to inquire about Randy Moss which would’ve opened our offense up and given us the sickest deep threat in football (but that is assumption when it comes to Ruskell on that front).
I would argue that we could’ve gotten a better pick in another position then WR with our 1st, instead of comparing Branch to other WR’s in that years draft. Even trading that pick for more picks may have given us more value then Branch.
We also had DJ Hackett at the time and he was emerging as a go to target. That being said we disagree but I do see your side of the argument too.
by Mr. Blache III on Nov 30, 2009 11:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I see yours as well...
I wanted us to get Moss, and couldn’t believe he was available that cheap. But yeah, our wanting him wasn’t Ruskell wanting him.
Then again, I wonder if he could have been effective with us. He needs that deep ball to be truly effective, and even in Hass’ best days he couldn’t sling like Brady’s mediocre days.
I was thinking of DJ with my reply, when I said “we didn’t have any young talent that could stay healthy.” I liked him a lot, and thought we found something great there, but that guy was ALWAYS banged up, even when he was healthy enough to play. I think Ruskell sensed Hackett was only going to be replacement level due to his injury concerns.
I also understand the 1st/WR/Branch counterpoint, and with that and the Moss things I’m closest with you. But I think the overall situation was forcing our hand in needed to get a WR who could come in and play right away. (And even Roddy White was simply not very good his first year.)
Regardless, I know this— I AM glad we’re not discussing Roscoe Parrish, Mark Bradley or Reggie Brown right now! :)
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by whiskey chainsaw on Dec 1, 2009 12:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
One more problem with the Moss comparison....
Moss would have cost a lot more if he’d played for us. He took a huge pay cut when he went to the Pats, but he wanted to go to NE because he knew that A) it was his best shot to rehabilitate his image and B) catching passes from Brady was his best shot at a ring.
by thebyron on Dec 1, 2009 8:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
True...but
Moss would’ve been worth the money. I actually think it would’ve helped Shaun stay healthier without having so many defenses put 8 in the box on him. You can’t do that with Moss on the field.
Hass, Alexander, Moss, D-Jack, Engram would’ve been sick. That move would’ve brought us back to the SB as far as I see it. Our team would’ve looked like a Fantasy Team. Or maybe we would’ve just looked like this years Saints.
by Mr. Blache III on Dec 1, 2009 9:23 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sorry, but your post make little sense to me.
Spencer is the only offensive player Ruskell drafted? What am I missing? And I do not believe Unger was brought in to be a jack of all trades. He is the center of the future, a future that doesn’t involve an injury prone Spencer. This conversation is about rebuilding the offense. I fail to recognize Spencer as proof that he is capable of such an endeavor.
I'm gonna go calm submissive on your ass.
by Dukeshire on Nov 29, 2009 9:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why not?
As John (or someone) has detailed here somewhere before, Spencer has proven to be a decent talent at center who still has upside. He hasn’t been particulary injury prone, either (so I remember from the post).
I think that Unger’s versatility is important. Spencer is a free agent, and was coming back from an injury. The front office was covering it’s bases. If Spencer leaves, we put Unger at center, if he stays, Unger can play one of the guard spots and back Spencer up.
by djafrot on Nov 29, 2009 10:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed!
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by whiskey chainsaw on Nov 30, 2009 12:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I really wish the "earned the right" statement had been explained a bit
Because I might agree if light was shed on it, but currently I wouldn’t.
Ruskell has made more good decisions than bad ones, but the current team feels like a hodgepodge casserole of talent with many pieces that don’t fit and most of the critical areas being average to below average. If Ruskell has a plan and direction, it is hard to identify. He just seems to be adding serviceable talent and hoping to win on talent instead of winning by a specific design.
by kearly on Nov 29, 2009 5:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think that is best case scenario, on offense.
This is why I question wheter he has earned a hand in a rebuild.
I'm gonna go calm submissive on your ass.
by Dukeshire on Nov 29, 2009 9:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but the question is not Whether to rebuild, its is Who should rebuild?
With the Ruskell-is-history rumor circulating the net, its now looks like getting a new GM is likely.
My concern with firing Ruskell and getting a new GM is not whether Ruskell deserves to stay or not. I think that is an argument with good points on both sides, its a close call, and close only counts in hand grenades. Close does not count in football, so Ruskell likely loses that argument and will be gone.
But my concern about the Seahawks is Who will lead the rebuild. Not just who will be the GM. Rebuilding takes a whole staff and months/years of work together. If Ruskell is fired, there is a decent chance he will be hired somewhere else (Tampa?) and then a good chance that he takes some of “his people” with him.
To me, Ruskell’s failures have been easily seen through well-publicized mistakes with first rounders and free agents. His success as GM has been demonstrated through his excellent mid-round draft picks. He can be replaced, but the success of the mid-round draft picks shows evidence of a personnel and scouting staff that is deep in talent and providing Ruskell great information on relatively unknown athletes.
The Seahawks right now have scouts out there scouting our next QB, our next LOT, and others. What happens to our personnel staff if that crew walks out the door in January? A new GM can assemble a new staff, get his scouts and personnel directors working, and have a new system running, but can they have deep scouting and a solid draft board seven rounds deep and ready to succeed by April? Scouting for the next draft has been happening over the past three months; by January the scout’s job is mostly done. My biggest concern is losing this scouting staff and their work as we go into perhaps the most opportunity-laden draft the Seahawks have seen in years.
In a way, who the GM is may be the least of the reasons the next draft is successful. Has Ruskell earned the right to lead this next offseason? Maybe not. But who can walk in the door cold in January having earned the right to quickly start making a world of decisions for this team?
To me, this is the best argument for keeping Ruskell and his whole staff working.
"Football players are temperamental. That's 90 percent temper and 10 percent mental." - Doug Plank
by Stevo's on Nov 30, 2009 8:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
what?!?
“With the Ruskell-is-history rumor circulating the net, its now looks like getting a new GM is likely.”
I don’t think Paul Allen let’s internet rumors determine his executives.
by cro-mag! on Nov 30, 2009 9:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure you are correct about that part.
I’m assuming the rumor might be true and leaked since it was in PFW, a reputable source. Even if the rumor turns out to be false, this could crank up the pressure on Allen and Leiweke to strongly consider the change if they weren’t already.
"Football players are temperamental. That's 90 percent temper and 10 percent mental." - Doug Plank
by Stevo's on Nov 30, 2009 10:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Allen and Leiweke aren't going to be pressured by a unsubstantiated report from an internet site that doesn't even have a byline.
by BrianL on Nov 30, 2009 11:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
no, but they will feel pressure from thousands of fans and season ticket holders talking about firing the GM
and this PFW story just made that worse for them.
"Football players are temperamental. That's 90 percent temper and 10 percent mental." - Doug Plank
by Stevo's on Nov 30, 2009 11:15 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't recall any big shakeup of the scouting staff when Ruskell came in
and I wouldn’t expect any if and when he leaves.
Sure, some of the top-level guys might be his cronies and go with him to whatever other team hires him. But most of the grunt-level work, and a lot of the higher-level work too, is done by people who were with the Seahawks before Ruskell arrived and who will still be here after he’s gone.
by Mr Fish on Nov 30, 2009 4:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Weird year for RBs in the draft
Rang’s running back prospects.
Spiller really is the only home run hitter among this year’s running backs. That could change if some people come out potentially. After that, good quality deep into the draft but beauty will be in the eye of the beholder. I think you could put Anthony Mixon, Monterio Hardesty, Toby Gerhardt, and Ben Tate into a hat, choose at random and get pretty similar production.
I like Spiller, and a case could be made for him along the lines of Percy Harvin. But if for some reason he’s not the choice, Seattle should probably wait until the middle rounds to choose a back.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
by dcrockett17 on Nov 29, 2009 3:12 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Spiller, Best, Ryan Matthews
The only ones with some size and speed.
It is what it is...
by kidder95 on Nov 29, 2009 10:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
At QB: It's probably Claussen, McCoy, or Bradford
For the record, I still think Locker comes back to school in order to get prepped for a career that extends past his rookie contract. (He could go #1 overall.)
I don’t have a preference among the others just yet, but I’m fairly optimistic about the top-tier QB talent. Claussen’s game probably projects most clearly to the NFL because of the offense he ran in college. McCoy’s got everything you need, and has not played with a lot of pro WR talent. He lacks the cannon arm but I think he’s good enough to make pro throws. I adore Bradford’s ability to read defenses, his overall smarts, and his accuracy.
McCoy and Bradford both ran college spread offenses, but I think teams have gotten better at understanding how performance in different versions of the spread projects to the pros. Big Ben Roethlisberger ran a spread. So did Joe Flacco. Once upon a time Drew Brees ran Joe Tiller’s precursor to the spread.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
by dcrockett17 on Nov 29, 2009 3:30 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Forsett is the man
His burst, instincts, and vision are the perfect compliment for the team’s tumultuous run blocking. He’s arguably the teams best runner after the catch too. He’s shown himself to be legit. While he’ll never be a featured back, lets hope he has a major role for the future Seahawks teams.
by kearly on Nov 29, 2009 6:04 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
He is a step down from Jones (and many other backs it seems) in receiving
and his size make it so he struggles at pass-blocking.
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
by Cheddar28 on Nov 29, 2009 10:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And he has NO third gear
That guy is freaking SLOW once he breaks free.
With that said, however, I’d GLADLY take a back that can consistently get 4-11 yard runs than one that averages 2-3 yards a carry and a few times a season gets the breakaway 30-40 yarder.
Force needs more carries, no doubt about it. But I don’t think he’s the type of back than can start and be by himself. He’ll need to share carries with someone.
The demise of the Broncos in '09 is our future. Pray hard.
by Nick Andron on Nov 30, 2009 10:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I would agree, and I think Forsett and Jones are pretty much interchangeable
I don’t see a big difference. Forsett is a little shiftier in the open field, Jones is a little stronger inside taking on tacklers. Both are great with screen passes. Forsett has had more opps on third downs and draw plays, while Jones got stuck with a lot of 1st and 2nd down rushing plays back when our O line totally sucked, and that killed his stats. But I think Forsett is about equal to Jones overall. Which guy gets more yards may depend most on how the O line plays.
I think the coaches could rotate these two in and out and call the same plays, which is good, but I’m not convinced either one will get us to the playoffs. I think crappy Rams tacklers helped Force look awfully good yesterday.
"Football players are temperamental. That's 90 percent temper and 10 percent mental." - Doug Plank
by Stevo's on Nov 30, 2009 11:06 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
not that I think a third gear is everything
I’ll take a running back who explodes through holes and gets first downs over a back with open field speed any day.
"Football players are temperamental. That's 90 percent temper and 10 percent mental." - Doug Plank
by Stevo's on Nov 30, 2009 11:16 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What about against the Cards' run defense? Force led the way that week.
Sure they took out Dockett but I don’t believe it was for any great length of time.
I’d very much argue that the two are not interchangeable primarily because Jones gets caught by backside pursuit more often. Forsett’s 1st gear is a notch better and I for one see him hitting holes faster and fighting through tackles just as well.
He’s also smaller and I think there have been many times where he’s disappeared behind linemen and subsequently found a way through.
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
by Cheddar28 on Nov 30, 2009 3:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Quick is better than fast.
A guy who gets to second gear in two steps rather than a guy who takes forever to hit a hole and IF he gets free looks like a lumbering lineman.
Wait, I think we have this guy already.
by Strictnine on Nov 30, 2009 3:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I want Gerhart.
There I said it.
abender20 hates freedom.
by Scruffy Lefty on Nov 29, 2009 6:12 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
could be a nice complement to force...
though I haven’t watched enough Stanford to know how well he catches the ball or blocks. I have some concerns about how high he runs, but in the 3rd round he’s probably good value to be part of a tandem. But he’s got some tools. He’s tough. He’s got some wiggle in his hips.
I kinda like Mixon from Miss. State, but like I said I think you could put about six draft eligible backs in a hat, pick one at random and not see any difference.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
by dcrockett17 on Nov 29, 2009 6:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm impressed with how quick he is for a big guy.
Good vision, good lateral movement and not slow by any means.
They don’t seem to throw to him to much but I’ve seen him make some nice grabs. Not sure about his blocking.
abender20 hates freedom.
by Scruffy Lefty on Nov 29, 2009 6:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm skeptical how well that lateral movement will translate to the pro's
by Nate Dogg on Nov 29, 2009 6:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
In that, he moves well laterally but he doesn't move laterally quickly
if that makes any sense
by Nate Dogg on Nov 29, 2009 6:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you.
I don’t see it. I don’t see his game translating to the NFL. His cuts are nice, but those cuts aren’t all that quick or subtle. He does look slow to me, as well.
by Misfit74 on Nov 29, 2009 8:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I want #48, the FB and #71 the RT
Sam Bradford, future Seattle Seahawk.
by Carl Shinyama on Nov 29, 2009 7:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know who you're refering to
by Nate Dogg on Nov 29, 2009 7:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The two players for whom Gerhart owes a lot of his success to.
Sam Bradford, future Seattle Seahawk.
by Carl Shinyama on Nov 29, 2009 8:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You didn't notice that whenever they took Gerhart out for a breather his replacement didn't do nearly as well?
Despite having those same two guys plowing the road for him?
Can’t we give Gerhart some of the credit for his amazing season?
by Mr Fish on Nov 29, 2009 9:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course he gets credit
Although during the season as a whole his backup (Stephan Taylor) put up a very similar YPC.
Most ridiculous in my mind is that Gerhart did not fumble. Not that game, not this season, not once in his entire Stanford career. 639 carries, including 311 this year, and he was credited with zero fumbles. I know he probably works to protect the ball and hit people since he can’t run away from them but that’s honestly impressive even if a bit lucky.
by Gihyou on Nov 29, 2009 9:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's amazing.
I’ll be very curious to see him at the combine… though I’m very, very suspicious of the combine anyhow.
by djafrot on Nov 29, 2009 10:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think I finally see John's frustration with Matt...
It just came to me that John is frustrated having to watch the grass slowly die. We can all see the grass yellowing…. there just isn’t a damn thing we can do about it.
Followup question: How does this transition happen in a best-case “real-world” scenario? Do we throw a new guy to the wolves immediately (ie draft one in 2010 and cut Matt), or does Matt “tool” the guy for a year?
Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
by iverson2169 on Nov 29, 2009 8:47 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Here's part of an answer...
by djafrot on Nov 29, 2009 8:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah... I read through that...
but I am assuming this is the “covering the basis” portion of the write up. I fully expect to see John’s actual thoughts on what it will take in part 2.
Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
by iverson2169 on Nov 29, 2009 8:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Uh.... derrrr Iverson.... maybe wait for part 2?
I guess I’m anxious to see some opinions on what it may take to get a transition done (and by done I mean implemented and competitive again).
Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
by iverson2169 on Nov 29, 2009 8:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I'll give you mine, but it's heavily influenced by John.
I’d love to keep Matt around, because I think he’s a great guy and a competitor, and could do very well helping a greenhorn figure out the lay of the land. He costs a pretty penny. If he were to restructure, I’d be all for keeping him.
We need to draft someone with our first few picks next year. We’re in need, and when else are we going to have this much flexibility to move around?
If we do let go of Matt, I’d say we should look around the league at some vets who can either carry us for a bit or are worth even looking at as a long term starter. John mentioned Jason Campbell, and he looks pretty decent to me. He’d be cheap. But i don’t see a lot of other options.
Ideally, I’d like to see this at QB:
1) a high draft pick
2) a veteran or capable starter
3) Teel
by djafrot on Nov 29, 2009 10:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I keep coming back to Dante Culpepper.
I know, I know. But he completely rebuild himself this year conditioning wise and looked very good early in the season against the Steelers when Stafford went out. Unlike Matt, he still can wing the ball, and he’ll be far cheaper and more expendable than either Campbell or Hasselbeck (although that doesn’t account for the getting rid of Hass prior, during the offseason, that a Culpepper move would take.)
That is the ‘vet’ and I also draft a guy (unless I’m certain on Teel) to be “next” at the same time.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by whiskey chainsaw on Nov 30, 2009 12:39 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather have Jeff Garcia.
Even if he is 473 years old.
by djafrot on Nov 30, 2009 12:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You say that, but you really don't.
Know why? Because in that construct, we’re better to keep Matt. Culpepper brings an arm to the table. Garcia brings only his heart. He’s the same as Matty. An old QB without an arm that tries to survive on heart and guile alone.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by whiskey chainsaw on Nov 30, 2009 6:11 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No, I do.
Unlike Matt, Garcia doesn’t freak out in the pocket, and if flushed out is fully capable of running without getting himself killed. And I think he knows his role at this point, whereas Hass and Culpepper still think of themselves as starters.
We’re only talking one year, tops.
And I’d be more intrigued by Jason Campbell.
by djafrot on Nov 30, 2009 11:20 AM PST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Garcia can do that stuff yes, but why are we even talking about
adding a stopgap player? We’re 4-7 and if we arent 6-7 in two weeks while Arizona suddenly starts to suck, we need to be a four-games-back team thats seeing if Teel was worth the pick.
by Strictnine on Nov 30, 2009 3:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You're right
we won…this game SUCKED!
by Kevin M Smith on Nov 29, 2009 10:54 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
For whatever reason, I've never paid much attention to Grant.
But I think, Babs might be better than Grant already. Perhaps Grant isn’t as average as I thought he was, but comparing him to Brian Russell made him look good.
Also, I can’t wait to read John Morgan’s QB scouting report after the college bowl games.
by LantermanC on Nov 29, 2009 11:03 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Who are you talking to?
Did I miss a reference to Grant in John’s article? I’ve been pretty disappointed with Grant this year. Especially the past month or more, the road games. Effort, Lethargic positioning & reading before the snap, tackling technique, and letting his beef with Beanie Wells directly significantly hurt us on two plays has really gotten under my skin. I’ve already forgotten what happened yesterday that I didn’t like, but it was one more play. We need a safety upgrade.
by jacobstevens on Nov 30, 2009 12:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No one in particular.
I’m just wondering out loud if Grant has been sub-par and if anyone noticed anything. I certainly haven’t noticed him being above average.
by LantermanC on Nov 30, 2009 1:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Grant is a steadyish, slightly below average player that isnt helping us.
by Strictnine on Nov 30, 2009 3:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Glad we're all in agreement, then
and glad for Lant for bringing it up. Previous to this year, I was pretty pleased with his play.
by jacobstevens on Nov 30, 2009 3:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Great write up John
I couldn’t agree more. I’ve been asking for Forsett to start for weeks now. I’ve been critical of Jones not because he’s not a capable back but because I thought we had a better option in Forsett. Jones in not bad back, I just don’t think he’s a feature back in this league now. I also feel that we have to get younger at WR too. I screamed that before and after the draft amongst lots of criticsm on this site.
Hass is checking down a lot, but when Hass does have time to throw there isn’t anyone open or with good separation down field. He’s being forced to make pin point passes just to get completions down the field. That probably goes more against the WR’s instead of Hass when that happens. I think the time to address the WR position was with our #4 pick last year.
Is your request for younger WR’s a criticism of what position Ruskell drafted for at #4? Another words should we have gone WR in the 1st round last year instead of LB?
by Mr. Blache III on Nov 29, 2009 11:05 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I think you missed this part of John's writeup:
The coaches will want to keep Forsett under twenty carries and around twenty total touches. That means finding Forsett a partner. Jones is not a bum. He put up a similar stats against the Rams in week one. Hopefully Seattle learns from Forsett’s success and does not blindly feed Forsett the ball.
by BrianL on Nov 29, 2009 11:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I understand and I agree
But I still think John means that Forsett should be the feature back and not just a 3rd down back so we can increase his touches. I think 20 touches for a starting RB in this league is what they usually get now because the RB position is shared amongst most/ all teams now. Another words, JJ and Forsetts roles should be reversed, but with maybe JJ or another RB getting the other10-12 touches or so.
by Mr. Blache III on Nov 29, 2009 11:17 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
John will have to clarify his position but I believe he's mentioned in the past that he's not big on feature backs.
I think what he’s getting at here is that Forsett shouldn’t be just a third down back, but shouldn’t necessarily be getting the vast majority of the carries either.
by BrianL on Nov 29, 2009 11:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And keep in mind Forsett does have some issues
He can’t receive as well as Jones and most certainly can’t block as well either.
by BrianL on Nov 29, 2009 11:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm i have to say Justin's pass blocking is quite impressive.
But hey in my eyes he does everything better than everybody lol
May the FORCE be with us..
by NW_BRED on Nov 29, 2009 11:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I love the little guy
but yeah, he’s small enough to where you’re surprised any time he blocks at all.
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
by Cheddar28 on Nov 30, 2009 3:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If he can't receive as well, why was he made the 3rd Down back when Jones was healthy?
by Mr. Blache III on Nov 30, 2009 12:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Seeing as how I don't have a telepathic link to Mora or Knapp I can't properly answer that.
by BrianL on Nov 30, 2009 12:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's because he receives and blocks well.
Otherwise I don’t think they would have him out there on 3rd downs. Most of those downs he would either be protecting or catching. Doubt Knapp or Mora would put him in that position if he couldn’t do it well.
by Mr. Blache III on Nov 30, 2009 12:15 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Or to help him improve in those areas.
As well as give JJ a break.
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
by Cheddar28 on Nov 30, 2009 3:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't want to get into this conversation but since it keeps coming up and won't go away....
Forsett has been praised for his ability to catch the ball out of the backfield as well as pass block since he has been in the league. Go read every report from the coaches on him. The questions have been whether he can break plays consistently and handle the ball 15-20 times a game in the NFL. I think the first question still needs to be answered. I’m a huge fan but JF has never had many long runs. That’s not a horrible thing if you are consistently breaking out for 10-15 yard runs, but it is definitely a downside if he can’t hit the long ball. The second question won’t be answered for years since his size will always make people question his durability. To try to answer that though look at the injury histories of a guy he shared the load with until his senior year in college. Marshawn Lynch who is a pretty good, large back. While JF NEVER got hurt in college Marshawn was hurt at least once a year to the point where he would either miss games or carries. That has NEVER been the case with JF. I’m not saying it won’t happen, but I am saying that size doesn’t equal durability. Warrick Dunn played a long time in the league while other larger backs kept getting hurt.
by finster112 on Nov 30, 2009 4:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
20 touches for me means Feature.
Feature Backs in this League only average 20-25 touches throughout a game anyway. If John wants Forsett to touch the ball 20 times then it sounds to me as if John wants Forsett to be the feature back or get the majority of the touches. However you want to phrase it.
by Mr. Blache III on Nov 29, 2009 11:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think the wording in that paragraph was "The coaches will want to keep Forsett under twenty carries and around twenty total touches."
by BrianL on Nov 29, 2009 11:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok
But don’t you think that the life of a RB in this league is so short anyway that you need to run them as much as you can? Perserving RB’s really doesn’t get you anywhere because the shelf life for RB’s are so short anyway. Gone are the years of production by the same RB at a high level for 7 years now. I think now you find one RB and run him into the dirt and get the most out of them and replace him with younger legs once he starts to show signs or slowing down. I’m in the MIke Shanahan school on this one. Sounds harsh, but this is game of production and not lifetime incumbants.
by Mr. Blache III on Nov 29, 2009 11:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
All I'm doing is pointing out that what you think John is saying isn't exactly what he's saying.
by BrianL on Nov 29, 2009 11:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you're using circular logic.
Arguing for running your RB “into the dirt” by pointing out the short shelf life seems like putting the cart before the horse.
by thebyron on Nov 30, 2009 11:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No I think it makes very good sense.
I don’t know if I agree with the idea, but I’m not against it either. He’s saying, on the bech or on the field, over/under 20 carries, the shelf life of an RB is pretty truncated. So the value of limiting the carries for the sake of a longer career may be a wild goose chase.
Effectiveness in a game ought to be considered, also. I don’t know the answer. But there’s no demonstrable reason to substantially limit his carries, while he remains a starter, that I can see.
by jacobstevens on Nov 30, 2009 12:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think they want to keep Forsett fresh
for the playoffs.
Caution, an attempt at humor was used in the above statement.
by Strictnine on Nov 30, 2009 3:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
When was the last time we saw a handoff to the up-back?
Forsett’s shelf-life could be increased considerably with the FB’s getting consistent carries.
by Groundhog on Dec 1, 2009 2:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's true.
Knapp’s system gives very very few carries to the FB, I hear. Dunno why or what the value is.
by jacobstevens on Dec 1, 2009 3:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Most systems give very few carries to the FB.
Dude is there to block, otherwise he’d be a halfback.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by whiskey chainsaw on Dec 1, 2009 5:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
There's a difference between few and none.
For a guy like Knapp who likes to throw in an unconventional play, every once in a while, you’d think a quick hitter to the FB would be in the playbook. Being a “run” coach, maybe he’s channeling Holmgren’s pass philosophy – the standard plays are good enough (high percentage enough) that he has no confidence in anything else.
by Groundhog on Dec 2, 2009 2:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You are right about that.
FB’s get 1 or 2 carries a game.
by Mr. Blache III on Dec 2, 2009 10:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not the most exciting game of the season, but i'll take it..
I don’t want to focus on the positives & negatives right now. All i know is we finally got the job done on the road. Im feeling more confident in knowing They’re finally starting to use justin more effectively each week. XD
My pre-season prediction of Justin starting midway through the season doesn’t seem so farfetched now. Im only bringing it up because i got ALOT of ish for that and still do. Now i know Julius is hurt and all, and he’s still officially the starter but im so happy we have finally realized we have a better option with number 20……
May the FORCE be with us..
by NW_BRED on Nov 29, 2009 11:21 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Unconfirmed report regarding Ruskell's future
by okdan on Nov 30, 2009 12:14 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
It bothers me that Matt isn't reliable right now.
I mean usually, coming up on a big (big as it can get with our record) division game with SanFran I would be saying to myself, “We just gotta keep rolling on offense and let Matt do his thing.” But now it’s “we will win if Matt magically gets his mid-range zip back.”
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
by Cheddar28 on Nov 30, 2009 3:10 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

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