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Is Colt McCoy Junior Jeff Garcia?

Colt McCoy looks like junior Jeff Garcia but more talented. Garcia and Greg Knapp began their careers excelling together.

More photos » Matt Slocum - AP

Colt McCoy looks like junior Jeff Garcia but more talented. Garcia and Greg Knapp began their careers excelling together.

Greg Knapp and Jeff Garcia rose to prominence together. The San Francisco 49ers signed Garcia from the Stampeders in 1998, Knapp's second season as quarterbacks coach. After Steve Young suffered a career ending traumatic brain injury*, Garcia won a battle of backups with Steve Stenstrom. The next season Garcia went to his first Pro Bowl. The next season Knapp became the team's offensive coordinator. Garcia would return to the Pro Bowl the next two seasons.

You can see how Garcia would click within Knapp's system. Knapp likes roll outs, he likes to move the pocket and his system benefits from a quarterback that can occasionally run. He incorporates short, middle and deep routes, leans heavily on play action and likes to run boots off play action. A Knapp quarterback must be able to throw on the run. The quarterback doesn't need a cannon but good deep accuracy and touch. Further, in this Tim Ruskell regime, any future Seahawks quarterback better have pocket presence. Garcia was able to move but keep his career sack percentage at 4.7%.

Colt McCoy's 5.2% might jump a little as a pro, but it's respectable. His completion percentage will come to Earth, too, but completion percentage is one of the more persistent skills of quarterbacking. Whatever his fate, McCoy will not have a bad completion percentage in the pros. He plays like a young, slightly taller Jeff Garcia and his potential is that of Garcia++.

Star-divide

 

Garcia++ is a pretty damn good foundation for the Greg Knapp Offense.

*Like "concussion" but honest.

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Probably the name. Who the hell names their kid Colt?

Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?

by Benne on Nov 5, 2009 11:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Gun enthusiast.

DUHuh.

And all the land was in ruin, and burnination had forsaken the countryside.

by Cheddar28 on Nov 6, 2009 9:13 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Or horse enthusiast

"Its not that I can't read and write, its just that I don't like to read and write."
-Charlie

by ninjasocks on Nov 6, 2009 9:29 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Or malt liquor enthusiast.

Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.

by whiskey chainsaw on Nov 6, 2009 9:47 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Or a Brennan enthusiast

The demise of the Broncos in '09 is our future. Pray hard.

by Nick Andron on Nov 6, 2009 10:01 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Or a dodge enthusiast....

Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.

by whiskey chainsaw on Nov 6, 2009 10:28 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

HIs numbers are exceptional for a quarterback prospect

if he’s drafted in the first round, he will have the best statistics of any first round pick in recent memory. If he’s drafted in the first two rounds, he would blow away Drew Brees and womp Kevin Kolb—who played at Houston. By FEI, Brees has played a close to league average defensive strength of schedule.

As for his height, there’s not a lot of meaningful difference between McCoy’s 6’2" and Locker’s 6’3". Actually, assuming McCoy is 6’2", he was measured at 6’1" entering college, he is the same height as Stafford and Sanchez.

I think McCoy is devalued because he was not considered a strong prospect out of high school and he plays in the same system that convinced many that Vince Young was a pro prospect. McCoy has started longer and destroyed Young’s stats. Further, Young has failed as a pro prospect for more reasons than his football ability.

by John Morgan on Nov 6, 2009 11:49 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Vince Young just isn't smart enough to conduct an MFL type playbook

did you see that Commercial of him in black and white talking about the Tattoos?

he sounded like a stuttering mumbling prick.

I ROCK out with my HAWK out, therefore I am....

by durteehawk on Nov 6, 2009 11:53 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I haven't

but Young has had a tough transition to the NFL: emotionally and mentally.

by John Morgan on Nov 6, 2009 11:56 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, it's not football smarts that's held him back, either.

Emotional problems. I can relate. They say he never had opportunities to overcome adversity.

by jacobstevens on Nov 6, 2009 11:58 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And is there a meaningful difference between McCoy's 6'2" and Graham Harrell's 6'2"?

Harrell had better stats and his SOS was better in ‘08 than McCoy’s.
And it’s not Vince Young that many detractors think of when they see McCoy, it’s Major Applewhite.
(Yeah, that’s way too harsh, but Chris Simms didn’t really make it in the NFL either despite being 6’4").

Yes, he may have had the best stats of any 1st round pick in recent memory, but we’re debating whether or not he should be a 1st rounder under normal circumstances. Draft Graham Harrell in the 1st round and boom, someone in the same conference with better/comparable stats.

by marc w on Nov 6, 2009 11:59 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That is what will be analyzed at the Combine, Senior Bowl etc

Applewhite completed 54.5% of his passes his senior season and 58% the season before that. Applewhite was a worse quarterback than Antwan Randle El. Simms completed 58.7% of his passes for his career and couldn’t rush worth a lick.

by John Morgan on Nov 6, 2009 12:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Different offense, to be sure

Applewhite’s Yds/attempt is a bit lower than McCoy’s, but it’s close.
And again, Chase Daniel’s sack rate was just under 3.5%, and he had sterling completion % numbers.

McCoy may be awesome, but it’s not like his detractors don’t have reasons to be suspicious. The combine will tell.

(Tim Tebow’s raw stats blow all of these guys out of the water, but I don’t think many people would be happy with Tebow in the 1st round.)

by marc w on Nov 6, 2009 12:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Here is a halfway decent scouting report on Harrell.

It may be interesting because some of the characteristic may match up to McCoy or others. Harrell was highly regarded then poof! There goes my NFL dream. Not enough arm, mainly.

http://collegescout.wordpress.com/2009/01/28/graham-harrell-qb-texas-tech/

by Misfit74 on Nov 6, 2009 1:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Harrell was never really thought of as a 1st rounder though.

He may have been thought of as a value pick, but…1st round?

by marc w on Nov 6, 2009 1:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not really.

But I haven’t broken down a full game yet.

by John Morgan on Nov 5, 2009 9:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I would be concerned

He sidearms the ball, floats his longer passes, stumbles in the backfield, and handles the ball sloppy. Still, he’s got accuracy, runs well, and makes plays. He’s got a long long way to go to be Jeff Garcia, but who knows? So hard to project who young QBs may develop.

Does anyone know which of the Seahawks scouts does their scouting of QBs? Whomever, he’s going to be busy until April.

"Football players are temperamental. That's 90 percent temper and 10 percent mental." - Doug Plank

by Stevo's on Nov 6, 2009 8:55 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He's got a pretty good mastery of his float ball, they fall in right over cornerbacks a lot

He does a good job of putting the ball in a place where his receivers can make a play for it. He’s not smooth in the pocket like Bradford is but I wouldn’t say he’s sloppy back there either.

by Nate Dogg on Nov 6, 2009 11:03 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sure seems that way

River has that angle. One of the other top QBs from this class has a similar angle, I just noticed. Was it Locker or Clausen? Can’t remember.

by jacobstevens on Nov 6, 2009 11:18 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No.

Sam Bradford, future Seattle Seahawk.

by Carl Shinyama on Nov 7, 2009 10:10 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You say a Knapp QB needs good deep accuracy and touch on his passes.

Can he even throw a deep ball – let alone put touch on it? If his arm is suspect, and it is, how can he be expected to have the required deep accuracy? I don’t see it.

by Misfit74 on Nov 5, 2009 9:08 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Of course he can throw a deep pass

McCoy’s arm strength is much better than Hasselbeck’s.

by John Morgan on Nov 5, 2009 9:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I just hope we can have a future QB with a good arm.

Not having the ability to throw deep has been a handicap. A good arm, please. I’d love that. It have to be the best arm ever…

Photobucket

by Misfit74 on Nov 5, 2009 9:18 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

If it's good, great isn't that important.

I also wonder if there’s any cross application of what Josh Kalk argued about pitcher’s fastballs and how they progress until they are age 29. Meaning: Colt McCoy has a good arm and could gain arm strength.

by John Morgan on Nov 5, 2009 9:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Possibly...

Arm strength, or lack thereof, is another issue that scouts will have with McCoy. The Texas quarterback appears to favor short to intermediate passes and will, at times, misfire on longer passes (often under throwing) giving away the fact that his arm isn’t as strong as the ideal NFL quarterback might have. This will be a knock on him going into the combine and eventually into the draft. If there is a way that McCoy can get his arm stronger, he needs to be working on that now.

by Misfit74 on Nov 5, 2009 9:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Draft sites are an echo chamber of ignorance

Most are compiled from information from other sites until the idea is repeated into truth. I have not fully scouted McCoy, but concerns about his arm strength are way overblown. I have seen more than enough of McCoy to know that. Chad Pennington put together a hell of a season in 2008 and his arm is a sawed-off potato gun. Arm strength matters, but not that much.

by John Morgan on Nov 6, 2009 11:52 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

aggreed

I would say accuracy and ability to throw on the run are far more important intangibles.

I ROCK out with my HAWK out, therefore I am....

by durteehawk on Nov 6, 2009 11:55 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

True.

And I’m sure we’ll see if he can throw, for example the deep-out. Guys like Graham Harrell were exposed badly when trying that throw during evaluations. McCoy will either hang or fall off a cliff, IMO.

by Misfit74 on Nov 6, 2009 11:58 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

thanks.

I ROCK out with my HAWK out, therefore I am....

by durteehawk on Nov 6, 2009 11:59 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, I agree.

And Pennington is a valid NFL comparison. McCoy would need a lot of experience to catch Pennington’s mental game – ability to read defenses and get rid of the ball efficiently. How true the arm-strength claims for McCoy are I guess we’ll find out. Obviously, there are plenty of examples of guys with an arm that can’t throw play the position.

My concern is having another offense sans the deep-ball.

by Misfit74 on Nov 6, 2009 11:55 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

McCoy is even close to that limited.

It’s more like he can’t gun the ball into a tight window. I think quarterbacks that can sometimes do it when they shouldn’t.

by John Morgan on Nov 6, 2009 11:58 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't see it

but the scouting process may prove me wrong.

by John Morgan on Nov 6, 2009 12:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Or me wrong.

I just want to get a better feel for him as a pro prospect. I have my questions. Maybe they are unwarranted. It is exciting to talk future Seahawk QBs, regardless. I honestly have not watched a lot of him in college games.

by Misfit74 on Nov 6, 2009 12:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

that should be peter king, not madden.

Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.

by whiskey chainsaw on Nov 5, 2009 9:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Woah woah woah

Seriously? McCoy does not have a good arm.

by Brendan Scolari on Nov 6, 2009 7:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

His max throwing distance might not be as far as others but the ball goes where it's supposed to

Unlike Jamarcus Russell who can throw the ball 80 yards on a line and it’ll probably land between the sidelines.

by Nate Dogg on Nov 6, 2009 1:14 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Quick release.

I ROCK out with my HAWK out, therefore I am....

by durteehawk on Nov 6, 2009 11:56 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Can get the throw off

I suppose it could arguably give a non-negligible edge in getting the ball to the receiver before the DB breaks on it. But the biggest issue with college QBs not having enough arm strength is the windows are so much smaller and they learn the hard way that average heat won’t cut it.

Most ideal response is high heat, but if they don’t have that, they have to get kinda sublime like Pennington to work around it even after the league figures out your limitations.

by jacobstevens on Nov 6, 2009 12:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This.

Remember last year when teams found out the NFL-type throws Graham Harrell couldn’t make? He about whent undrafted after being in the Heisman discussion and arguably the 3rd-best QB in the country with ridiculous passing stats.

by Misfit74 on Nov 6, 2009 12:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

They're one and the same

The harder you throw it the farther it will go.

by Brendan Scolari on Nov 6, 2009 7:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It depends on the angle.

If you throw twice with the same amount of effort/hardness, the throw where the release is closer to 45 degrees will go farther. So, he may be able to get the ball out far enough by throwing higher, which makes it take longer to get there.

by bewrong on Nov 6, 2009 9:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

True

I was assuming guys were throwing at the optimal angle, like in an arm strength competition or something.

by Brendan Scolari on Nov 6, 2009 9:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I *heart* Jeff Garcia.

Even from his Calgary Stampeder days. He’s just a great competitor. If we’d somehow brought him in sometime in the last couple of years, I bet we’d have a few more wins.

by djafrot on Nov 5, 2009 10:33 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

This is why I always have trouble with Garcia comparisons

or say Doug Flutie for that matter. You never look at these players “tools” and say, I want that! But over their careers they proved to be competitors, overachievers that just found ways to get it done on the field. The problem I have is that I think it is very hard to scout and translate that to the NFL game. I understand that the ++ is the potential that McCoy’s tools have over Garcia, but I’m not sure you can measure what else Garcia brought as a base. And if you dont factor that in, is Garcia – heart + potential something you really want to draft in the 1st or top of the 2nd? And this is no way an indictment on McCoy, I dont know enough about him.

by zscratch on Nov 6, 2009 1:21 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

interesting and entertaining

I guess my contention is comparing a prospect to a player who overachieved based on his skill set is a little dubious, at least in my opinion. But then again, maybe Colt just needs an Old Spice Swagger commercial contract. That seems like a marriage conceived in heaven with guaranteed W’s on Sunday. Or maybe we can just get John Madden to follow him around for a few months telling him “he’s special”.

by zscratch on Nov 6, 2009 11:29 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I do not think Garcia overachieved

I think the NFL mis-evaluated his ability. It emphasized arm strength and ignored his remarkable ability to avoid a sack. The NFL scouting process is reasonably accurate, but arm strength is definitely an exploitable inefficiency. Most of the come from nowhere prospects I can think of fit Garcia’s mold: substandard height, decent arm strength, good accuracy and pocket presence.

by John Morgan on Nov 6, 2009 11:38 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I was just being facetious

but John’s response above this is very good.

by jacobstevens on Nov 6, 2009 12:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree that overachieve is a bit of a misnomer

In truth, he achieved what his abilities allowed him to just like any other QB or player does. But I still think he is a hard one to compare to because some of his skill set is very hard to gauge. He wasnt just mis-evaluated on his first attempt into the NFL, he was continuously mis-evaluated through out his career because he is not a sexy franchise type pick. He probably should still be a starting QB somewhere as a stop gap above some of these other guys. As far as the “come from nowhere” mold, I agree as well but I think part of that is due to substandard height and decent arm strength getting him eliminated immediately from Franchise QB talk and it seems thats all scouts really look for.

by zscratch on Nov 6, 2009 3:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Colt's been one of the few QBs I've been consistently hoping for.

If he fell to us, I’d take him for sure. I remember watching him last year and he reminded me of a more mobile Hass. Completion % to me is much more imprtant than a 90 yd throw.

I actually bought a Betancourt t-shirt.

by Hopefulmsfan on Nov 6, 2009 1:00 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

to add to that

Hass seems to be constricted in Knapp’s offense. Matt has hurried a lot of his passes because he is not that mobile. If Seneca had better accuracy and was taller he would be perfect. Vick had success in Knapp’s system. we need a QB that has accuracy, can throw deep if needed, and be mobile being able to throw on the run.

Also, Knapp’s system favors short to medium depth throws.

I ROCK out with my HAWK out, therefore I am....

by durteehawk on Nov 6, 2009 7:03 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

but how about 90 yards from his knees?

are you really telling me you wouldnt pay 68 million for that? Crazy! I mean, just think how often that would come in handy during a game.

by zscratch on Nov 6, 2009 6:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Just how quick does his ball get to the window?

Do we know if his lack of strength doesn’t let him zip the ball? Particularly over the middle? Something Hasselbeck can still do pretty well.

by Krazyleggs on Nov 6, 2009 2:17 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

This from NFLDraftScout on McCoy:

Arm Strength: Improved arm strength over his career, and now has good zip on underneath patterns and short outs. Only adequate arm strength on deeper throws, although he can sneak a 40-yard rope into the end zone if he spots an open man. Inconsistent spiral on intermediate and longer tosses. Rarely throws into tight spots between defenders.

by Misfit74 on Nov 6, 2009 12:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Speaking of accuracy on deep throws

This deep throw hit Shipley right in stride. McCoy has decent arm strength, but definitely not elite strength. I think McCoy should be trying to improve his overall body strength, though, not just his arm. He’s a bit thin and doesn’t have a lot of muscle definition. He looks plenty athletic enough and young enough to get stronger throughout his body, but he has a lot of the other stuff, like accuracy and mental makeup.

He scrambles and moves around in the pocket nicely like this play, and he can run a bit like this play. He doesn’t have Locker’s speed or quickness, but still has nice athleticism for the position. To hold up in the NFL, he should probably try and get a little stronger throughout the body, not just his arm.

by scratchandsniff on Nov 6, 2009 10:08 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Clausen, Locker, Tebow, Bradford, McCoy

I’m liking our chances this year. Not because I think all of them are good prospects, but because I think they will be chosen in the first round. Plus how many teams need a QB? Many are set. Bucs, Browns, Cheifs, Raiders, Skins, Bills, Jaguars, Titans, 49ers, Broncos? hmmm, maybe not. At least not the ones picking around us.

Still, looks so much better then last years class.

by B.B.Finnegan on Nov 6, 2009 11:46 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I dunno if it's unreasonable concern or not

but I don’t want to be the Buffalo Bills of this draft, getting JP Losman in the 1st round of what looks like another historic QB draft, that seems so deep. I like all the prospects, and I love the thought of getting a franchise QB and then also picking up a great talent at RB, tackle, D-line, wideout or safety. But I as a fan am feeling a little compelled to want to package our two 1sts to move up and get a surer thing, a perennial contending QB.

by jacobstevens on Nov 6, 2009 12:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

re: college sack %

Any idea how these numbers translate to the NFL? I’d imagine there’s be a huge difference given draft position and college conference, but it’d be cool to see a study on this.

by marc w on Nov 6, 2009 11:50 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I do not

the most I know regarding the matter is that it is the most stable stat for quarterbacks changing teams within the NFL.

by John Morgan on Nov 6, 2009 11:54 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sold on Locker yet

But is there a way to measure these sack figures that adjust for quality of offensive line? I could be wrong, but if you McCoy played behinds UW’s line, wouldn’t you think his numbers would resemble Lockers? I see Jake Locker and I see potential Steve Young on steroids.

by quickhandsandfeet on Nov 6, 2009 12:08 PM PST via mobile reply actions   0 recs

It is very hard to separate the quarterback from how we perceive the line.

Steve Young on steroids sounds great, but Young set the college completion percentage record at BYU, 71.3%. Locker just isn’t close.

by John Morgan on Nov 6, 2009 12:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

An important thing to remember is completion percentage is one of the most stable stats

college to pros and pros to pros. Sack percentage is consistent pros to pros and I imagine would be stable college to pros if we had better information about college sacks. NFL tools are a must, but if a quarterback prospect lacks pocket presence and completion ability in college, he is not likely to gain that as a professional.

I wouldn’t draft a quarterback with a ~55% completion percentage for all the beer in the world.

by John Morgan on Nov 6, 2009 12:22 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I agree. And Colt's comp% is fantastic which we know is a good indicator - a skill that translates to the NFL.

That is the same reason Snead has been so disappointing. He’s played himself out of sure-fire 1st round status, in large part due to his poor comp%.

by Misfit74 on Nov 6, 2009 12:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That would be hilarious.

I’d thought that maybe scouts were backing off Snead, but you may be right.

by marc w on Nov 6, 2009 1:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No way

Not this year, he won’t declare.

by Brendan Scolari on Nov 6, 2009 7:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

His tools alone will entice a team to take a chance on him.

I just hope that team is not the Seahawks.

Sam Bradford, future Seattle Seahawk.

by Carl Shinyama on Nov 7, 2009 10:27 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

2 things I think should be factored in...

While I admit completion percentage is critical.
1) number of drops
2) number of intentionally thrown away balls instead of taking a sack/running out of bounds for a loss.

Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.

by whiskey chainsaw on Nov 6, 2009 1:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Now hang on a minute...
I wouldn’t draft a quarterback with a ~55% completion percentage for all the beer in the world.


Let us not be hasty….

Fans are typically idiots.

by The Typical Idiot Fan on Nov 6, 2009 1:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not a fan of McCoy at all

He’s not a big guy, he doesn’t have a very good arm, he doesn’t make any reads, he doesn’t play in a pro offense, he doesn’t have good intermediate/deep accuracy 9 I know the completion percentage, but watch him play), he doesn’t have much pocket presence, etc. etc.

I wouldn’t take him in round two at this point, and probably not round three. He’s not going to be very good outside of the Texas system if you ask me.

And Garcia is an easy comparison because of the lack of physical skills, but not having physical skills doesn’t make you Garcia. Garcia was near perfect in every other aspect of the game, if McCoy can master everything he could be Garcia but that’s his absolute upside pretty much. Calling him Garcia++ is way off.

by Brendan Scolari on Nov 6, 2009 7:40 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Huh?

What am I supposed to base it on? I’ve watched him play a lot and read a lot about him. You think I’m the only one who doesn’t like him? Go read the Seahawks Draft Blog, Rob Staton hates him, thinks he should be a 5th rounder at best.

I’m sorry but that’s a really odd comment. What magic method are you basing your evaluation on?

by Brendan Scolari on Nov 7, 2009 10:35 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I really, really, really hope you see this John

I am incredibly confused as to how you could think your scouting opinions are “based on something” but mine aren’t. You call him “Jeff Garcia ++” based on what you think you can do, I say I don’t think he’s very good based on what I think he can do, and I get my opinion thrown aside. Do I have to use a radar gun and post readings to the tenth of a MPH in order to say he doesn’t have a good arm?

by Brendan Scolari on Nov 7, 2009 11:00 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This arm strength debate on Colt McCoy is quite surprising, and actually a little exasperating.

The guy has it. Sure, he doesn’t have an elite arm, but that doesn’t mean that he doesn’t have arm strength. He can throw a bullet (passes that he will make far more often than not as opposed to deep bombs in the NFL), and he can make all the throws necessary in the NFL. He is not going to be throwing deep bombs on every other play in the NFL, so people need to stop knocking him for that.

I’ve seen him play numerous times. I’m actually quite surprised that people are just now questioning his arm strength. I wonder, where were these questions last year?

I find that the ability to anticipate the receiver and to gauge and execute the throw, no matter the distance is far more important than arm strength.

If it drops his stock, then I say, GOOD! I want the Seahawks to get him as late as possible, if they can’t get Bradford.

Sam Bradford, future Seattle Seahawk.

by Carl Shinyama on Nov 7, 2009 10:26 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I wonder that with all the talent that may be available in next year's QB class

If I’m the only one that wants either Bradford or McCoy? I like Locker and Clausen, but I am yet to be sold on either.

Sam Bradford, future Seattle Seahawk.

by Carl Shinyama on Nov 7, 2009 10:29 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Two last thing with McCoy:

Two things that I absolutely love that no one’s really talked about.

- His ability to read the field during the play.

- His ability to get the ball in tight windows.

I will always judge players on how they play, not on their measurables.

Sam Bradford, future Seattle Seahawk.

by Carl Shinyama on Nov 7, 2009 10:32 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I think a lot people think both of those things

Are huge question marks though. He doesn’t really make many/any pro reads in that offense and his accuracy on anything other than short passes has been questioned.

by Brendan Scolari on Nov 7, 2009 10:53 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

His accuracy on deep passes are fine.

You say you watch him a lot, but I don’t see how you come to the conclusion that he doesn’t really make any pro reads. I’ve seen him make quite a few. So you know, I was talking about his vision on the field during the play. One other thing that you must keep in mind: Just because a QB may not make many reads, doesn’t mean that he can’t.

Matt Hasselbeck didn’t do it much in college, yet he’s one of the best in the league at reading defenses.

His accuracy on deep balls are fine. Given that he will be making far more short and mid-range passes in the NFL, it’s hardly a relevant concern.

Sam Bradford, future Seattle Seahawk.

by Carl Shinyama on Nov 7, 2009 11:02 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not saying he can't learn to make reads

Just that he doesn’t in college.

As far as the accuracy, I’m not just talking abou deep balls, I’m talking about intermediate stuff too. His passes hang and he’s not very accurate on those 15-20 yard throws. Did you watch the Red River Rivalry game?

by Brendan Scolari on Nov 7, 2009 12:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ok, now I know you're oversimplifying and possibly making your claims up.

He doesn’t make reads in college? That’s an inaccurate statement. I’ve already said that he does. He’s also pretty accurate on the intermediate passes. Some of his passes hang, but as many have zip behind them. Really, how much have you actually watched him? I’ve seen him a lot both this year and last year. It’s why I find the debate about his arm strength to be rather surprising and exasperating.

Yes, I watched the Red River Rivalry game. I got up at 6 o’clock in the morning to watch it. It wasn’t his best game, but if you’re going to use one game as a barometer to back up your claims, you’ve already defeated your argument before you began it. In a game where both teams’ defenses dominated, it was actually a game for Colt where it was more exception rather than the rule in terms of personal performance. Better to look at the season as a whole, and measure him by that, along with the rest of his career, and there’s ample evidence of what kind of player he is, given that he’s been playing since his freshman year.

Sam Bradford, future Seattle Seahawk.

by Carl Shinyama on Nov 7, 2009 2:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Making my claims up?

Hmm, it feels like neither you nor John feel like I’m allowed to have an opinion that disagrees with yours.

Yes, I have watched him a lot. I’d say probably 4 complete games of play this year. And I don’t think his arm is very good, some of his throws just look downright bad, like throws you wouldn’t see in the NFL.

And no, he doesn’t hardly make reads. He usually just stares one receiver down and then runs the ball.

I pointed out the Red River Rivalry game just as an example of a game where he looked pretty bad because that’s a good example of what I’m talking about, I didn’t say that was the only game where i thought he played poorly.

What evidence is there that he will be a good pro? Yes, he has been very good in college, but as I’m sure you know that doesn’t mean you’ll be good in the NFL. I think the completion % is a good sign, as John pointed out, but that alone doesn’t mean you’ll be a good player (see Brian Brohm). He just doesn’t have skills that I see translating to the next level. He reminds me a lot of Colt Brennan actually, although at least he is doing it against better competition. I remember hearing the same things about Brennan, the arm strangth was legit, he was making quick reads, his “mobility” would help him, etc. It doesn’t look like it’s going to work out for him.

Anyway, since you seem to think I’m making this all up I’ll post a segment of the evaluations of a few other draftniks who agree with me. Here’s Rob Staton of Seahawks Draft Blog’s evaluation:

Colt McCoy was truly awful against Bradford’s Sooners and belittled those who still rank him amongst the potential top picks in 2010. As with Tebow, McCoy is a great college quarterback. But for a brilliant play by Michael Crabtree and Graham Harrell last year, he’d have won the Heisman and Texas would have made the Championship game. In the NFL – that counts for nothing. Colt McCoy is not a NFL caliber quarterback. On Saturday we saw the usual collection of screen passes and short routes, mixed in with a few quarterback draws. McCoy’s accuracy was all over the place, particularly when he threw further than 10 yards. He fumbled the ball when running in the OU red zone and tossed a woeful interception later on that probably should have cost his team the game. He simply doesn’t have the arm and skill set to make it in the NFL and shouldn’t really justify anything more than mid-late round consideration.

Here’s Matt McGuire of WalterFootball.com:

McCoy won’t be eluding pressure in the pocket in the NFL not just because there is a tremendous jump defensively in terms of athleticism, size, strength, technique, intelligence, instincts, etc., but also because he will be a deer in headlights going from the shotgun, zone-read spread to a more pro-style, West Coast system. In Texas’ offense, McCoy has one read, and if that read isn’t open, he ducks his head and runs. He can’t throw from the pocket. He isn’t going to get away with this in the NFL…

It doesn’t matter how good you are as a runner in college. If you don’t have the ability to throw the football, your running skills as a quarterback are meaningless. Don’t make the mistake of evaluating ESPN highlight reels and start evaluating how a quarterback’s mobility helps his passing game because that’s what it all comes down to at the next level.

I am not perfect; I have had my fair share of brainfarts as an analyst/scout; it’s just impossible to be perfect. However, I did not think Alex Smith or Vince Young were first-round talents. I’m highly confident that Tebow and McCoy will make no impact in the NFL as passing quarterbacks.

And a prodraftparty.com evaluation (they’ve reviewed two of his games):

vs. Oklahoma

- Throws too high on the majority on his passes

- Had a pass dropped by a DB that would have been a pick six

- Nothing terribly impressive in this game but I guess a win is a win

vs. Texas Tech

McCoy started off terribly against Texas Tech, overthrowing receivers multiple times and throwing 2 picks because of it. His arm is a huge question mark for me because I am not seeing the zip on his balls that he will need to be successful in the NFL. He did step up in the 2nd half to lead Texas to a win but I do not see a first round prospect. His arm and height are just too big of question marks at this point.

So, are we just all making this stuff up and oversimplifying, or perhaps are these some valid criticisms of McCoy?

by Brendan Scolari on Nov 7, 2009 6:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hot damn, 4 games?

The Colt Brennan comparison is horrible. Neither of them are similar in style of play, mechanics, and they played with an entirely different offensive approach in moving the ball.

At actually seems as if you’re drawing your opinions based on the writers of other blogs, where it’s you agreeing with the writers and not the writers agreeing with you. You only cited the OU/Texas game, as both prodraftparty.com and Rob Staton basically did. Neither of them actually provided a breakdown of Colt McCoy’s game, only a brief opinion of his overall performance in the game. You’re not providing me with examples or even a breakdown beyond just that one game, other than the brief summary on the TT game.

I’ve stopped paying attention to people get concerned with a quarterback’s height. Drew Brees and Doug Floutie have both proven it’s not about your height, and it’s about how you PLAY. Don’t judge quarterback on their measurables, but on how they play.

But so far, with the original argument that McCoy can’t throw deep ball, that’s where you are wrong.

Matt McGuire has been wrong about a lot of players, too. For example, he also said Duke Robinson was worth being 1st round prospect. He also thinks Jake Locker is the 2nd best quarterback in the country. So he thought Vince Young wasn’t a 1st-round prospect.. Guess what? Neither did I.

I honestly don’t care if your opinion differs, but when you make claims that don’t seem hold water and is contradictory to the entire body of evidence, I will likely question your opinion, or in this case, your observation.

I’ve never said that McCoy WILL be a good pro. Only that has arm strength. No one can really know if a prospect WILL make a good pro, much like no one can know if a prospect WON’T make a good pro.

Sam Bradford, future Seattle Seahawk.

by Carl Shinyama on Nov 7, 2009 7:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, 4 games

Considering he’s played what, 9, I think watching nearly half his snaps can be considered a lot. Sorry I’m not a scout or a Big 12 fan, so I dunno, that seems like a good amount to me.

Colt Brennan comparison horrible? Okay. They both have similiar arm strength, overrated mobility, play in a spread, and throw for a high completion percentage (in my opinion) only because of the system they play in. Colt’s throwing motion was obviously worse, but I didn’t say they were exact clones of each other.

I won’t deny that my opinion is influence based on what others right, in fact it’s heavily influenced. I try to find guys whose opinions i respect and I listen to what they say and compare it to what I see.

As for a breakdown or thorough analysis, I honestly can’t give that to you nor would I be very capable of doing so. The draft stuff is just a hobby of mine, I’m not a scout, I don’t take notes, and I don’t have an extensive football background. I just DVR a few games and rewatch plays a few times if I see something interesting. I’m not claiming to be some expert on the subject, I’m just another jerk with an opinion, though I do at least spend a fair bit of time watching and reading about players.

As for QB height, I’m not sure why you think one or two exceptions breaks a rule. QB height definitely matters, even if it’s not completely damning.

So you say I’m wrong about McCoy’s arm strength, I just don’t get that. He doesn’t have a strong arm from what I’ve seen, or from what a lot of other people have seen, but I should believe you becuase…? I don’t see how you think you have any more evidence than I do.

Yes, Matt McGuire isn’t my favorite dude either, he overreacts too much. I mainly posted his comments because I agree with what he says here and I like Walter Football in general. He’s certainly wrong at times though, as everyone is. I like Locker too though and I’m not sure what that has to do with what we’re talking about.

How does my opinion not hold water? You’ve said what you think and I’ve said what I think. I supported my opinion with other “experts’” opinion and you could probably do the same for your side. We both have the same “evidence”, we just disagree on how to interpret it. And nothing I have said is contradicory that I am aware of.

Of course, this is all just speculation at this point No one will know who is right unless/until McCoy actually plays in the NFL.

by Brendan Scolari on Nov 8, 2009 1:01 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

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