Puting the Chris Spencer move in perspective.
by Joshua Kasparek on Dec 17, 2009 11:47 AM PST
Email
PrintI've spent the last 24 hours thinking on this more in-depth and really forgot one key reason this move makes total sense and the Timing is fine.
Spencer is done in Seattle, it's simple, I said it after we stood at 3 and 5. halfwway through the season Chris Spencer's health would determine his future in seattle and two weeks later his hand was in a cast.
Why make this move now and not when the hand was broken. Simple, you were still capable of making the playoffs or at least having a winning season and Spencer despite his injuries knows the line calls for pass protection and is someone who's seen enough football to avoid real rookie mistakes. With the knowledge as a headcoach that even if you keep your job Chris Spencer is gone, with nothing more than your job on the line, Max Unger becomes the future of Seattle's center position. The Mike Gibson thing was a head scratcher until I applied the same logic to Wrotto and Vallos, you know what they can do you need to see if Gibson can become part of the competition to improve the line.
Mora made a huge error in calling out Chris Spencer's injury issue in public, but I don't think that lead to an Irrational meaningless decision. I know people say Spencer improved this year and what's funny is I thought about it all last night and they are correct to some degree, but Injury prone guys don't suddenly find a fountain of health DJ Hackett didn't, neither did Shawn Springs and once the injury bug bites a player for more than two seasons, they are an injury risk. Why would Spencer be depended upon after this season?
Why is it irrational to move on with someone you believe takes the position anyway next year?
80 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
I don't think anyone (around here) thinks it's irrational
It’s perfectly rational.
The coaching staff want to see if a young, promising, cheap Unger (under contract for 3 more years) can play at approximately the same level as Spencer.
If so, why retain Spencer? It’s his fourth year and he’s still not meeting the expectations of a first round pick.
If they start Unger for the balance of the year, he’ll have his true test against Ryan Pickett when we play Green Bay next Sunday. If he holds up against Pickett, Spencer might as well pack his bags right then and there.
Hell, if Unger struggles and is made a career guard, Spencer STILL might have to pack his bags unless he signs on the cheap (assuming the org makes any effort to re-sign him).
The demise of the Broncos in '09 is our future. Pray hard.
Yes
The matter is not benching Spencer, which is not surprising after Seattle drafted a center in the second round, it’s how Mora benched Spencer. I am excited to see Gibson and Unger at work, but simultaneously sad to see Spencer ungraciously and publicly dismissed.
Consider: Spencer started the season injured and Seattle didn’t start Unger then, it instead started Steve Vallos. This move isn’t about giving Unger his due, it’s about deflecting blame.
by John Morgan on Dec 17, 2009 1:58 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Really, because I also heard
Jim Mora in his press conference say.
“You know, we looked at it and rather then waiting for the offseason to put Unger there we’re going to go ahead and do that now.”
It didn’t dismiss Spencer, it said to me that Spencer was given an opportunity to make his case at Center and couldn’t do it injury free. Why not start Unger at center in week one and two? Simple, you give Spencer his rope he hangs himself or makes an impact. You also don’t start an awesome controversy early in the season if switching results in loses.
by Joshua Kasparek on Dec 17, 2009 2:16 PM PST up reply actions
It would be one thing if Spencer was playing poorly
but he is not. He is, along with Rob Sims, one of the only quality members of the offensive line.
This change was never hinted at
the most obvious reason is the botched snaps. In fact, Mora specifically complained about that before benching Spencer. The result might be reasonable, starting Unger, but the process that led to that result is horseshit.
Botched snaps reflect poorly on Spencer's play at Center.
Botched snaps lead to turnovers and turnovers make it harder to win. Turnovers can lose games. Sitting Spencer to minimize that chance of Seattle turnovers makes sense to me. I don’t see it as ‘deflecting blame’. I see it as a good move for the player and the team.
This.
That may well be true, but his snapping with a different hand and wearing a cast are reason to think he's part of the problem.
And a turnover-creating risk. He’s not the same risk on the bench.
This.
The point of the ball was coming up instead of the body of the ball
Hasselbeck has compensated most of the last games because it’s happened a ton more than sunday and Hass is worrying about ball security. You can spot ball grab bobbles and exchange issues mixed with solid snaps. The only reason he’s not playing now is because there’s no way to have a winning season and if you’re going to move on anyway because you don’t believe in him for whatever reasons. Injury or otherwise.
Would it have been better if Sunday had been a close loss without these fumbles would Chris’ demotion sat well with everyone if Mora hadn’t have said all nice things? Or would it be SA vs Mo Morris all over again?
by Joshua Kasparek on Dec 17, 2009 3:20 PM PST up reply actions
How do you think Spencer projects as a right guard?
Mora said that Spencer and Gibson would split time at right guard. I’m guessing it will be a competition between the two, and that Spencer could conceivably beat out Gibson for the starting right guard job. I thought at some point over the last few years you’ve talked about how Spencer could have a future at guard if he failed at center, and maybe this will be a chance to see if that’s true. Also it seems that it would benefit Unger the same way it benefited Spencer to play next to Chris Gray when he was supposedly struggling with calls at the line.
by Mind of no mind on Dec 17, 2009 2:21 PM PST up reply actions
He didn't do so well when he got a chance to play left guard a few years ago
but maybe he’s better suited for the right side of the line.
It was long ago
and he was a fish out of water. I hope the team gives him a second look, but I doubt it. Spencer is gone as far as I can tell.
His comments Sunday towards Spencer I guess were harsh? I don't know I missed them.
His comments Monday were pretty down the middle, indifferent (towards Spencer).
His comments Wednesday were praising Spencer.
Oh the world of Mora. I don’t know. I don’t quite buy the deflecting blame, it’s possible, but I wouldn’t say it’s true. Where’s the line between blaming a player and being disappointed in a player? He’s clearly disappointed but I don’t get that he’s blaming Spencer for all the o-line problems.
by B.B.Finnegan on Dec 17, 2009 2:24 PM PST up reply actions
I'm not going to defend his post game comments because those were poor
His subsequent press conferences were less naming blame and more about how he was moving forward. I think that’s ok. I feel bad for Chris Spencer because his injuries are the exact reason he’ll be unemployed and there isn’t much he can do about it.
by Joshua Kasparek on Dec 17, 2009 2:29 PM PST up reply actions
He said something stupid and then played damage control.
Spencer won’t be unemployed. Too much is made of his injuries. We know this stuff because we are crazy about the Seahawks, but centers around the league are playing with various injuries.
hes been the most reliable offensive linemen
since 2006. Just to further back up your point.
by Hancock.Brett on Dec 17, 2009 2:36 PM PST up reply actions
Too much is made of both his shoulder surgeries and back issues?
What? His dinged up nature of his hands? This isn’t the first time he’s worn a cast.
by Joshua Kasparek on Dec 17, 2009 2:39 PM PST up reply actions
I thought in football thinking, playing through injury was honorable
not something to be benched for.
My point is,
you probably don’t know the health of other teams players. Fans tend to lose perspective, thinking their team is penalized more, their players injured more, more prone to drops, false starts, etc, because that is the team we know.
Seahawks fans complain a blue streak about penalties, and their team has been among the least penalized of the decade.
Really only one game I've complained at length about...
And… that’s enough about that.
But yeah, our boy will be starting for someone else next year, without a doubt.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 19, 2009 4:24 PM PST up reply actions
last I checked most probowl centers don't have surgically repaired shoulders
They also aren’t frequently dinged with game changing injuries
Matt Birk has been someone who played through injury a ton, but non of them ever changed his game and most of them had to do with his lower body. Name me a really good or probowl caliber O-lineman that has a bright career after all the upper body issues he’s had.
by Joshua Kasparek on Dec 17, 2009 2:48 PM PST up reply actions
Here's an excerpt from Anthon Munoz's Hall of Fame profile
Anthony Muñoz, a 6-6, 278-pound offensive tackle, was the first-round pick of the Cincinnati Bengals and the third player selected overall in the 1980 NFL Draft. Some considered the pick a risk because of multiple knee injuries and the fact that he played only one full game his senior year at the University of Southern California. But as the two-time All-America lineman (1978-1979) proved, the concerns were unnecessary.
Injuries happen
your particular knowledge of one player’s and lack of knowledge about others, does not prove Chris Spencer is some kind of special case.
different position and again, not upper body.
by Joshua Kasparek on Dec 17, 2009 3:06 PM PST up reply actions
This was an interesting thread until we got sidetracked on the injury thing.
I just want to figure out what makes Mora tick and whether or not I want him around next year. These discussions have been helpful to me.
by B.B.Finnegan on Dec 17, 2009 3:19 PM PST up reply actions
This is just about the most spectacular sentence I've read on Field Gulls.
and that’s a pretty high bar.
by jacobstevens on Dec 17, 2009 3:41 PM PST up reply actions
Just out of curiosity
Do you buy your own argument? Do you think knee problems are less significant than shoulder problems, or that an offensive tackle needs his knees less than a center needs his shoulders?
depends on where he's playing and how he can compensate
There are a lot of factors in this. Knees and legs on lineman can be healed pretty well, though they might be slowed in overall down hill speed. You’re upper body is the whole duck at the dinner. If you can’t steer and control lineman because of upperbody issues or you can’t shread or extend your arms as violently or generate good pop you don’t have anything to work with. This said, I haven’t seen this problem with spencer, I’ve just seen generally too many injuries that seem to effect his seasons.. It’s not little injuries like bone spurs or a bruised knee or even an ankle sprain, it’s always somehow more.
by Joshua Kasparek on Dec 17, 2009 3:27 PM PST up reply actions
I've played line
power comes from the legs. The shoulders support the power of the body, but without your knees you have nothing.
This is like saying, what’s more important, the wheels or the steering wheel. Well, I think both are essential.
And I'm not attempting a gotcha here
I just think it’s pointless for us to attempt to figure out what an offensive linemen needs most, his knees or his shoulders. I am pretty sure we are both unqualified and uninformed, and yet rationally able to assume a linemen needs both.
For a little perspective from experience
I played 4 years of offensive line when I went to high school. My first two years were at guard/backup center. The middle of my sophomore year i broke my right thumb and had to learn to snap left handed, at least for practice. What I realized is that firstly, my attention was much more on delivering a good snap than it should have been and that took away from my other responsibilities. The second thing i realized is that I am slower and have less burst off the line with my left hand down. Having played for 6 years at that point with my right hand down, going lefty was awkward as all hell.
At guard (my starting position) the injury had basically no effect. We were in an 2-point stance so there were no issues with putting my off hand down.
The point? Spencer is going to struggle mightily at center if his dominant hand is inoperable. It shouldn’t affect him terribly at guard, which is a position I believe he could play well for the Hawks.
by Fightfightfight on Dec 17, 2009 4:19 PM PST up reply actions
Good perspective
and like I said, I don’t hate the decision, but I disagree with the process. If the hand motivated the move, the move is very late. I gather that Spencer’s hand is almost healed.
I don't think for an organizational move
looking at Spencer as a starter of any kind does you any good.
by Joshua Kasparek on Dec 17, 2009 2:24 PM PST reply actions
Well, I think you're dead wrong
Spencer is the most talented member of Seattle’s offensive line and has outplayed everyone but Rob Sims. Put Spencer on a team with more offensive talent and he’s revered.
He is the second most agile, to Sean Locklear
the second strongest, to Sims, the second most technically sound, to Unger, the least penalized, the quickest off the snap, the best pull blocker, the second best run blocker and the most aware. Seattle is downgrading its line, and I am pretty sure it’s doing so only to save face.
I rather wonder why more people aren't irate about this.
But then I realize most people only understand the team through what they are fed by the coaching staff and media, and therefore probably think Spencer sucks.
A devilish part of me wants to see Spencer go Kevin Mawae on this ungrateful bunch of bastards
and those who fed us this load of BS to be caught in their lies.
I think we'll get to "enjoy" that, as I think he'll go somewhere that will appreciate him.
Meanwhile, we’ll continue to churn the wrong line guys continuously … and I’m bummed to think that this is what it will be.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 19, 2009 4:29 PM PST up reply actions
That might of been to harsh. I want Unger and guys like Gibson to play well.
We all know how this is going to end, they’ll look great against Tampa, everyone will praise Mora and rip on Spencer. The they’ll go to Green Bay and the line is going to be torn to pieces.
SEA!
Chris Spencer hasn't recovered from the verbal abuse heaped onto him by Holmgren.
He takes more undeserved crap than any other Seahawk and it’s absolutely infuriating.
I've been on a bus for 7 hours, and 3 planes for another 19....
to get back to Portland for the holidays this year.
I too am confused about the Spencer Thoughts here. I don’t have as much emotion invested into this thread as I haven’t seen it develop, but it does make me wonder what I have been watching. I honestly can’t pick out a whole lot of Spencer “flubs” pre-hand-injury.
I’d be fairly upset if Spencer weren’t a Seahawk next year.
Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
Athletic skill does not a player make alone.
Spencer destroyed his shoulder in 2006 and then over compensated his blocking away from that shoulder and destroyed his other one and then had significant back issues that had him miss games.
This guy’s injuries aren’t slight and un noteworthy, why are you dimissing them as completely unimportant?
by Joshua Kasparek on Dec 17, 2009 3:05 PM PST reply actions
not trying to attack the poster
but these fanposts/shots where you make a point, it gets torn apart by 10 different people, then you make another are getting really old. Can we have a post with a single topic ffs?
by Hancock.Brett on Dec 17, 2009 3:08 PM PST up reply actions
because your analysis is un noteworthy
if what you are saying is true his play would have drastically deteriated which it hasn’t. He has played in two completely different systems, missed the least games out of any offensive linemen, and played above average – good for a center in this league.
by Hancock.Brett on Dec 17, 2009 3:08 PM PST up reply actions
gotcha, thought that was at me
didn’t want to ruffle any feathers.
by Hancock.Brett on Dec 17, 2009 3:27 PM PST up reply actions
We all want to be right
It’s just that some of us are more willing to listen to others in order to figure out what “right” is.
I’m not sure how I feel about discussion-ending tactics.
A perfectly justified complaint
But I can’t help but notice when a discussion is not productive and is turning into one against the group.
My biggest problem with disagreement is that injury is being so dismissed
By the way folks, Spencer got lucky because he had time from the preseason to recover from his injury. Otherwise you talk about the first 4 weeks of the year possibly yet I’m supposed to ignore this because he’s such a DJ Hackett..
It’s entirely irrational to say that injuries are so unimportant when they keep happening because you imagine he’s so great. Or at least, the potential is there. You can ignore me, but you’re the one who dismissed my injury concern as overblown if not entirely stupid.
by Joshua Kasparek on Dec 17, 2009 3:38 PM PST reply actions
From NFL.com and ProReference. Games started since 2006
From 2006-Present, Games Started
Walter Jones – 46
Rob Sims – 41
Chris Spencer – 54
Sean Locklear – 46
Chris Gray – 31
Mike Wahle -10
Ray Willis – 35(Locklear started over him)
by Hancock.Brett on Dec 17, 2009 3:48 PM PST up reply actions
woops
These were all as Seahawks, thats why Mike Wahle only has 10.
by Hancock.Brett on Dec 17, 2009 3:52 PM PST up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Shutdown Corner - NFL - Yahoo! Sports
- The hidden play of Super Bowl XLVI: Justin Tuck’s third-quarter sack
- Report: Chad Ochocinco will become Chad Johnson once again
- Video: Bill Belichick implores his defense to make the Giants throw to Mario Manningham
- Training Day: Learning the 40 with an Olympian
- Terrell Owens is still clinging to the NFL dream
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
