2009 Matt Hasselbeck < 1991 Dave Krieg
by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on Dec 29, 2009 4:26 PM PST
in Seahawks Commentary
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Does this sound familiar? The Seahawks reach the end of a long run of success, landing with the dull thud of a losing season. Regime change is imminent, and one of the big decisions is what to do with the team's quarterback/locker room leader, whose performance has declined significantly from a Pro Bowl level just a couple of seasons before. Obviously this describes the Seahawks' current situation, but also where the franchise stood after a 7-9 campaign in 1991.
Amateur historians in the Twelve army know what happened after Dave Krieg was released following the 1991 season: The team cratered with the infamous 2-14 campaign of 1992, starting a decade of futility and mediocrity punctuated by multiple massive failures in picking the "QB of the Future." Krieg showed that he still had some skills by leading the Chiefs and Lions to the playoffs in 1992 and 1994, respectively. As a teenage Seahawks fan back then, I always wondered if those mid 90s Seattle teams might have been more competitive with Krieg under center, or at least on the sidelines mentoring the new guy.
There are some parallels between '91 Krieg and '09 Hasselbeck. Krieg was 33 in 1991, Hass is 34 now. Both players had been Seattle's primary starter for nine seasons, and had mediocre Seahawk swan songs with about 1:1 TD/INT ratios.
A dead-ender of a Hasselbeck loyalist like me might be expected to use these similarities as ammunition for a "keep Beck" rant... sadly, both the current state of the Seahawks and the accelerated erosion of Hasselbeck's skill set points toward a repeat of the brutal decision made by the Behring junta after '91: One of the best players in franchise history needs a shove... if not out of town, at least off the field.
1991 Dave Krieg was less ground down by injuries and a decline in surrounding talent than Beck is now. The '90 Hawks were 9-7 and barely missed the playoffs, and over Mudbone's last 20 starts, the Seahawks were 11-9. Beck's last 20 starts? Seattle is 6-14 in them. That's a reflection of the team's overall decline as much as Hasselbeck's, but believe your eyes: Do you think that The Objectivist has SEVEN more 300+ yard games left in him? Krieg did that after leaving Seattle. Hell, Beck might not have ANY 300 yard games in his future.
I'll never make any money on my football prognosticating talents, but my instinct is that Hasselbeck lands in Cleveland as Holmgren's "bridge" QB or New England as Brady's back-up in 2010. This time, however, the Seahawks will be making the right decision when they part ways with the veteran QB who led them through a successful decade.
More of my Seahawks-related brain-droppings can be found over at Dave Krieg's Strike Beard.
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It really is Matt Hasselbeck
And no, I don’t have anything against Dave Krieg.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Dec 29, 2009 4:31 PM PST reply actions
Krieg doesn't stand a chance in this poll
I think almost all Field Gullers are pretty new school Hawk fans.
I agree
I love Dave Krieg, but Beck is the best QB in team history. They are two of my five favorite Seahawks ever… Here’s my top 10 faves (not necessarily the BEST)
1. Krieg
2. Largent
3. Hasselbeck
4. Walter Jones
5. Easley
6. John L. Williams
7. Tez
8. Jacob Green
9. Curt Warner
10. Shaun Alexander
"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper
by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on Dec 29, 2009 4:35 PM PST reply actions
BTW
As much as it is cool that Krieg still had a career after leaving Seattle, it really doesn’t help the argument. The argument is who was the best in SEAHAWKS’ history. That means that whatever comes afterward is moot.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Dec 29, 2009 4:38 PM PST up reply actions
Two different arguments
I talk about the post-Seahawks career of Krieg to illustrate that he still had some juice left in his old bones when the Behring administration ran him out of town. I don’t really think Hass has that juice anymore.
You are right.. If we are talking about the best QB in Seahawks history, we should only admit evidence from their playing days in Seattle.
"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper
by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on Dec 29, 2009 4:41 PM PST up reply actions
Otherwise it's Warren Moon in a landslide, adn that really isn't right.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 29, 2009 8:32 PM PST up reply actions
Oh God, that 1991 low game against San Fran I still remember that
I think that was Krieg’s third fumble or something. I believe he’d just picked up the first down running past mid-field minute or so left and then boink, 49er runs up behind him and swats the ball out.
I think Krieg had about sixteen fumbles that hear, was a record, but man did that guy know how to fumble. I give Hass credit on the fumbles, he’s has as many his whole career as Krieg had in one season.
"fumbles that year, wasn't a record,"
I should proof read before I post.
by B.B.Finnegan on Dec 29, 2009 4:37 PM PST up reply actions
Oooh boy that Niners game
I VIVIDLY remember Krieg making this gutty scramble on our final possession of that game… We were down by 2, trying to get into field goal range, and he ran for a first down to keep the drive alive…
BUT HE DIDN’T SLIDE!
Fumble.
Game Over.
:(
"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper
by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on Dec 29, 2009 4:39 PM PST up reply actions
I'm too young to have ever seen Dave Krieg and actually be able to understand what was going on.
So Hass is my obvious choice. But even so, after hearing and reading about Krieg, I still think Hass is the best Seahawks QB ever. I’m going to the game on Sunday and I may buy a Hasselbeck jersey just because it’ll probably be his last game as a Hawk.
Also a die-hard Hawks fan.
Great Post
Just wanted to give props on this one.
My vote is for Hass. He took us the big game and one of those playoff games after the ’05 season was pretty much Matt willing the team to victory. Anyone else remember that sinking feeling when Shaun went out of that Redskins game?
I remember watching the next ‘Hawks possession and just think, "Matt isn’t going to let us lose…"
I think Dave Krieg
was a better QB he had a HOF WR but not a great deal of other talent around him, certainly not two HOFers on his blindside and a HOF running back.
by A'Seahawks_Warriors on Dec 29, 2009 7:47 PM PST reply actions
Good points
except that Shaun probably doesn’t sniff the HoF, and Curt Warner was there for Krieg too.
Hmm... Shaun's stats are very HoF sniffable.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 29, 2009 9:21 PM PST up reply actions
I don't think he gets in
He had 1000 less career yards than Ricky Watters, and Watters hasn’t been seriously considered (and Watters was a very good receiver as well). He has half as many yards as Emmitt Smith. The only RB under 10k yards to get in played many decades ago when totals were a lot lower than the modern NFL.
Shaun was notorious as a soft runner who benefited from a HoF left side of the OL. So even his considerable TD totals will probably be taken with a grain of salt.
Finally, Shaun was a very 1 dimensional RB after his first couple seasons. He was a poor pass blocker and terrible receiver.
There are a lot of guys that haven’t got in yet that would get in before SA. I’d say he’s a HoF nominee at best.
There are 24 RB/FB's currently in the Hall (modern era, not counting WB/RB combo guys from the older wing t era.)
He’s 13th all time in TD’s,
(8th all time in RB TD’s).
26th all time in rushing yards.
10th all time single season rushing yards (dropping one spot this year!)
He has the 2nd highest single season rushing TD total as well.
I don’t think he’s first ballot automatic, but you said Shaun wont even sniff the Hall, and I think his career absolutely merits consideration.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 30, 2009 10:19 AM PST up reply actions
Ricky?
First, personality and attitude go a long way, and perception is Watters lacked in those areas.
Remember, “For who? For what?”
Second, he got only 800 yards more, and 22 TD’s less, along with averaging 4.1 vs. 4.3 per carry.
He also doesn’t own a league MVP award.
Shaun should get nominated. Maybe Ricky should too.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 30, 2009 10:22 PM PST up reply actions
Shaun has comparable stats to guys already in
But look at the wave of guys he’ll be going up against: James, Faulk, Tomlinson, Martin, and (ugh) Bettis. heck, even guys like Holmes, Taylor, Dillon, and Lewis have strong cases based on total yards, Pro-Bowls, and yearly awards. Start throwing in nominations for QBs, WRs, the Hall finding room for the occasional lineman and each writer advocating their pet player, and the competition gets fierce.
The only real thing Shaun has going for him is the TDs, but even that’s starting to lose it’s luster, with LT breaking it just the next year and the Madden-like stats other guys are starting to put up now. It sucks that HOF voting is in the hands of guys like Peter King, who base their selections on grittiness and leading the league in smiles, but that’s the crap he’ll face. HOF voters will value the tail end of Bettis’ career where he made a living out of being fat and falling forward for 2 yards more than the prime of Shaun’s – because Bettis was “tough” and Shaun was “soft”. throw in the unfortunate coincidence that Shaun’s injuries robbed him of his ability right at the same time he lost a certain LG, and it just furthers the perception he was a product of his Line. I’m sure we’ll be seeing articles in the future about how guys like Dillon & Taylor deserve it more because they were “gutty” and “knew how to win”.
I thought it at the time – that if Shaun wanted to solidify his HOF case, he need to catch on a team (preferably East Coast so writers would be bothered to pay attention) and eek out a couple hundred more yards and a few TDs by simply slamming head first into the pile – not because the stats would’ve made a difference, but to rehab his image and get the Peter King idiots of the world to start attaching the tough label to him. Unfortunately that didn’t happen for him win WAS, and he probably did his rep more damage.
The way the process works, I think the writers will only give lip service to him, but he won’t make the final cut of nominations for a while.
"I'm tired of chasing after my dreams. I'll just find out where they're going, and catch up later." - Hedberg
I can see that argument...
Faulk, LT and Curtis Martin are first ballot guys in my book.
Edge and Shaun are comparable, and Bettis is a far cry beneath them. Priest and Dillon are a (very small) step behind Edge and Shaun, and Taylor and Dillon are both just a half step behind those two.
I think Bettis doesn’t get in for a long time if he ever does. Actually, he will, like 20 years from now based more on his tv career than his actual field career, and only after at least 6 of the above names get in first.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 31, 2009 12:26 PM PST up reply actions
Disagree about Bettis
All the XL BS left a permanent irrational hatred in my gut, and I hope you’re right – just out of my spite for him.
But he’s 5th on the all-time rush list, top-10 rush TDs. And as much as it pains me to say it, he was a very good all-around back with surprising speed & moves for his size, before the grind-it-out last 4-5 years of his career. 6 Pro-Bowls, 3 All-pros, and the OROY.
The weaknesses in his case are the lack of receiving yards (will be explained away by being in Pitts run-oriented O) and that he played a long time (which, since everyone’s seen the video of him struggling to get out of bed in the morning will only add to the toughness angle). I just have a gut feeling that when you combine the stats with the media love, popularity, and the intangibles mystique that so many voters pop wood over, that he’ll get in sooner rather than later.
"I'm tired of chasing after my dreams. I'll just find out where they're going, and catch up later." - Hedberg
My problem with Bettis is this and this above all else-- 3.9 YPC.
Of players with 7500 yards or more, only Eddie George and John Riggins have a smaller average yards per carry. He’s also 22nd on that list in rushing yards per game, and barely over 70. In both cases, Shaun is above him, as well as having more TD’s in fewer years. I’d rather have Terrell Davis’ brief run of greatness than Bettis’ sustained “Somewhat above average-ness.”
Maybe you’re right and he gets in, but I think the sub 4.0 ypc is just as significant as the total yards, and his TD total gets canceled out by the low ave…
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 31, 2009 1:58 PM PST up reply actions
I dont think he gets in either
in fact I’d be shocked. And I still wear my #37 jersey.
Fact is, though we loved him here, he wasnt all that enormous in the grand scheme of things.
I'm not saying he's automatic myself...
but I do think he is going to be in conversations. I think he’ll get in far down the road, if his numbers still stay near where they are in the all-time comparison lists.
I will say this— if TD or the Bus gets in, it would be a crime if SA doesn’t.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 30, 2009 1:02 PM PST up reply actions
Zorn was the one not surrounded by talent
it was him, Largent, trick passes to the kicker, and that was it. By the time Krieg took over, the team was actually pretty loaded. The OL didn’t have many memorable names, but always played well, was regarded as one of the better units in the AFC and churned out 1000 yard rushers every year, back when that benchmark was still a big deal. At the skill positions, Kreig had Curt Warner, John L Williams (Leonard Weaver x10), Largent, Darryl Turner, and Brian Blades (arguably the 2nd best WR in team history, depending on how big a D-Jack fan you are).
IMO, considering the different eras and the respective offensive philosophies, Krieg and Hass were surrounded by equally talented supporting casts during their prime.
"I'm tired of chasing after my dreams. I'll just find out where they're going, and catch up later." - Hedberg
As soon as I read the title
I had a bad, bad feeling about our 2010 season. Because we all know what came after 1991.
You forgot one
If you are polling who was the best QB in Seahawk history there is no way you can leave out Zorn. I would have to vote for Hass because he has taken us to a Superbowl but it was a hard desision. Zorn was there through the early years when we were just becoming a team. It was fun to watch his scrambles and passes to Largent. Those two are why I became a lifelong Hawks fan. I never got to see them play but I did get to see Zorn throwing in pregame warmups a few years ago. He has an arm that neither Hass or Kreig could come close to matching.
ZORN FOR OC
No disrespect to Zorn, but...
He was 40-60 as Seattle’s starting QB… Hass is 58-45 & Krieg was 70-49.
Zorn had a Seahawks career QB rating of 67.9… Hass? 83.4. Krieg? 82.3.
Zorn? Zero Pro Bowls. Hass and Krieg? 3 each.
I could go on… Zorn was surely an exciting player, but not nearly at the same skill level as Krieg or Beck.
"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper
by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on Dec 29, 2009 11:59 PM PST up reply actions
Not much for stats
I am not much on stats determining who was the best QB in seahawk history. Circumstances and teams had more to do with those stats than just the Qb. Both Kreig and Hass got to play on teams that had outstanding running games which inflated their stats. Show me their QB ratings and win loss percentage when their running games failed and it was left upon them to win the games on their arm alone. What is Hass’ rating over the last 2 years. Zorn made the game exiting to watch even though you were not expecting a victory every Sunday. You never knew what was going to happen next. As for Kreig’s win loss percentage how much of that was from the best defense the Hawks have ever had.
ZORN FOR OC
I'd say Zorn was the best overall athlete to play QB for the Seahawks.
He was a much better athlete than either Krieg or Matt, for whatever that is worth. He was much faster, a better runner and had a stronger arm. He also never played (until his last year) with a decent offensive line. I always felt he got short-changed by Knox. I love Chuck, but he didn’t give Zorn enough time to learn to play with actual blockers in front of him. When he was benched, Zorn through more accurately on the run than he did from the pocket. He wanted to roll out no matter what, and Chuck didn’t like that.
As for the best QB ever to wear the uniform, I’d go with Moon. In his 2 years here, I think he was the best QB talent.
Hass wins overall though, since he was good here for the longest.
I don’ think he’s done here either.
Well if you are talking about all the QB's ever, and you are talking about athleticism...
Mirer was better, but Seneca was the best athlete to play QB for Seattle, no question.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 31, 2009 8:48 PM PST up reply actions
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