West Coast Defense: New Info
In talking about how Aaron Curry fits Seattle, coach Mora said this:
"We are a 4-3 team, but we play a lot of over defense, which means that we play with three linebackers off the ball."
Eric also linked to an explanation of the 4-3 Over/Under on About.com (the football forum of which I've long been a prolific member).
Gus Bradley mentioned coverage, particularly underneath coverage, keying on the QB instead of just trailing their receiver through their zone.
He & Mora have both talked about aggressive mentality, extensively, which doesn't really mean much, except that they juxtapose it against blitzing to point out being aggressive is more than blitzing. Mora did say recently, though, in one of those juxtapositions, "although we'll be doing a lot of that," regarding blitzing. With a 4-3 Over base, I could see that blitzing would indeed be more a part of what we do, even so long as they emphasize that it alone doesn't embody all that they mean when they cite aggression.
And yet it's been confirmed we're still doing a lot of cover 2 and doing a lot of what Tampa has done, without being Tampa 2. Aside from cover 2, it's the pressure out of your front four that most distinguishes Tampa 2.
John's observations about their line acquisitions, their characteristics, has lent him to guess (when pressed) that "West Coast Defense" would be most distinguished from Tampa and what we ran under Marshall as more situational substituting on the line. Given our rotations, I can indeed see that as likely.
So, maybe the team never meant to make much of "West Coast Defense," and Tim Lewis is just one of those good but crazy ol' defensive coaches that makes the team cringe whenever he gets a microphone, like the Redskins' Greg Blache. But I think they are trying to do something unique here, and the question has fascinated me. Will it really be unique?
Tony Dungy was fond of pointing out that his Steelers did pretty much everything he & Kiffin ran in Tampa, that it was nothing new. But as a scheme and philosophy, it definitely was a new type of defense.
it's hard to find something truly new under the football sun. The Wild Cat isn't new. The spread isn't new. The A11 is.
If Seattle is borrowing existing parts and combining them in a way never done, or never done systemically, it might truly be something different, something unique, new, and something worthy of its own monniker like West Coast Defense. Presuming it's at least moderately successful.
4-3 Over base, cover 2 shell. Underneath coverage keying on the QB, with situational substituting on the line. Is that the future history of the Seahawks and the NFL?
Pressure disguising from the 3-4, using 4-3 talent. With cover 2 zones, would figure to not be as vulnerable to TEs as the 3-4. Frequent blitzing, but not married to it like the zone blitz 3-4, where if you don't send an OLB you don't have good pressure-generating talent sent forward.
Far less rigid or predictable than Tampa 2. Less "read and react. The way your DTs slide to go from over to under, and keeping with rotated 4-3 talent as opposed to 3-4, you retain the interior pressure threat over the guards, which is how Steve Spagnuolo turned Justin Tuck into a star. And don't make yourself vulnerable to the running game in the process.
The best of the Steelers, Buccaneers, and Giants?
The one thing I am left wondering is on those occassional days we just don't generate adequate pressure on a smart QB, will our cover 2 zones get picked apart at the seams? Mora did say they don't want to be predictable. But they have mentioned cover 2 and talked about Tampa, as well as "eliminating any gray areas" so I don't anticipate there being any complex zones being used.
But it's worked for Tampa 2 teams, they find ways to get pressure and don't often get picked apart if they're talent is decent. And this sounds more resourceful in being able to generate pressure, with a few different approaches to choose from. I was worried before, but the more I think about it, the more excited I get.
A place to bury strangers.
11 recs |
12 comments
Comments
Knowing that Seattle will be playing lots of "Over"
explains why the team targeted a giant, powerful strongside linebacker that can cover. In that case, Hill could blitz from the weakside with Tatupu resuming his role of running back/fullback/center buster.
by John Morgan on Apr 27, 2009 11:36 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It actually sounds brilliant
The scheme seems perfectly suited for the current talent. Even seems to mitigate the possibility that Kerney doesn’t return to form.
by jacobstevens on Apr 27, 2009 11:46 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I actually believe the Chargers are moving to a similar scheme.
My Chargers fan friend and I were shocked by the English pick, considering Merriman and Phillips, are both great pass rushers. But with a 4-3 cover 2 guy, with 46 origins, putting Merriman on one side, with Phillips and English on the other, with Castillo and Williams in the middle would be nasty. Pretty similar to the 4-3 over we are talking about. Considering Kevin Burnett is supposed to be pretty good in coverage for a MLB, and they have another MLB they like, it sounds a lot like what we could be working on.
When I brought that up to him, he started remembering some 4-3 formations being mixed in when Ron Rivera took over the defensive coordinator position last year, and we both see our teams putting in similar schemes, coming from two different places.
Could be “fantasy coaching,” but considering the new defensive leadership for both teams and the somewhat puzzling personnel decisions, I can’t come up with a better explanation. With the actual 4-3 over comment from Mora, it seems to support these flights of fantasy.
by cashless on Apr 27, 2009 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stephen Cooper is pretty good for them too
But he’s yet another steroid Charger, isn’t he? Do they still have him?
It is kind of fantasy coaching. It’s so rare that it’s ever seemed worth entertaining, so even on that note I’m tremendously enjoying imagining the possibilities.
by jacobstevens on Apr 27, 2009 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds complicated and awesome.
Can’t wait to see if it works as well as it sounds like it might.
McCoy McCoy 2010
by LantermanC on Apr 27, 2009 12:07 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Seems as though we would need a Tubbs in the middle
with all three LBs off the ball. We did get stronger and bigger at DT, but it’s not as though we truly exploded at the position. Of course, with all the outside pressure, they could be filling gaps that kind of pinch, and if they are all quick and strong enough it could work, just seems as if there is a weakness up the middle.
by cashless on Apr 27, 2009 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You mean weakness in talent or in scheme?
it seems focusing on getting a stout guy in the middle and then having the other guy, and maybe an end, assigned to single gap coverage more than anything else, while getting LBs that can blitz, would make it a 3-4.
I don’t know if it is a schematic weakness or not. The NFL used to pretty much be 5-2. Tom Landry moved a guy back to become a MLB and it changed the league. They were no longer vulnerable to power running — pulls and sweeps.
I guess I can concede that as a scheme it does seem inherently focused on pressure and so can be vulnerable against the run. Consider run blitzing as a gameplan, though, particularly against running-heavy teams, and maybe that makes up for it. Example: what the Giants did to us in 2005, the Jay Feely/11 false starts game. Left us dead in the water most of the game.
You always want a big guy in the middle, you want to stuff every run. Not at the expense of interior rush or the ability to collapse a pocket as opposed to simply holding your ground. The potential to make a guy like Jackson or Redding more like Sapp/Tommie Harris light on the interior arguably more than makes up for an arguable inherent vulnerability against the run, considering our division and even the league. Passing scores more points.
And anyway, in what way is a typical 4-3 defense as opposed to the Over/Under NOT vulnerable to the run in the same way?
by jacobstevens on Apr 27, 2009 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it has a slight weakness of scheme.
And considering we have a slight weakness in talent(size-wise) it could possibly be a concern. However, that is a general statement because I believe this represents an improvement of scheme, and that we have improved(even if slightly) in talent.
Could be no issue at all.
by cashless on Apr 27, 2009 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rec this post
Well done sir, and how.
2/3 of the world is covered by water. The rest is covered by Marcus Trufant.
by Chickadee on Apr 27, 2009 12:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Following up
with a bit more research last night, I found a tremendous transcript of a worksho pled by Pete Carroll, on the 4-3 Under as a base formation, detailing roles and duties and highlighting some blitz schemes off of it. His PPT slide deck isn’t linked anymore, but you can visualize what he’s talking about.
So USC’s been running this thing. I don’t follow college, but I would expect more people, then, to have known about this scheme. Why didn’t Sarkesian get on KJR and say, yeah, we’ve been running that all along, when Mora mentioned the 4-3 Over (Because that sort of stuff is way too heady for KJR, of course)? Additionally, it’s another defense that was developed and refined by Monte Kiffen, from his time at Nebraska. Unbelievable. Can we even call it West Coast Defense anymore? WCO was a bit misattributed, originally, but ultimately it means something now, so I guess that answer could only come if it’s effective, successful, distinct and has tenure. So we’lll talk again in 5 years.
by jacobstevens on May 12, 2009 8:59 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Tidbits
Mora said “4-3 Over,” and I can’t imagine us not putting both the SLB Curry (standard, the “Over”) and WLB Hill (proven pass rusher) on the line at varying times. But to be specific, Carroll is talking about the Under as a base, and seemingly ours is Over, and Carroll strictly (at least for the sake of discussion) adhered to a single gap approach, which isn’t necessarily the case for us, and I’d bet that they’ll decide through training camp, if they can count on one guy to be a two gap player, they’ll assign him to be (and if I had to guess further I’d guess their eye is already on Mebane).
So these tidbits easily could not seamlessly apply to us, since it’s Under and single-gap, and I have no clue nor the extent to which Over and Under differ on these matters, but here we go:
The Sam linebacker controls the D gap to his side of the field. He is in an inside-foot to outside-foot alignment on the tight end or what most coaches call a 9 technique spot. He can never get reach blocked by the tight end in this position. He is the force player for everything run to his side of the field and turns everything back inside to the pursuit.
This is Aaron Curry. With USC, Carroll would have the Sam man up on the TE or slot, which among other things keeps assignments very simple. It sounds like him and this position is a match made in heaven for us.
The prime spot on the defense to the weak side is the B gap player. He is an inside-foot to outside-foot alignment on the offensive guard to his side. He is a 3 technique player. He has B gap control but he can’t get reached or hooked by the defense due to the way we align him. The whole scheme of this defense is predicated upon not getting hooked.
This is Brandon Mebane. This scheme has our best players and the most important and impactful positions. Is it safe to say RG is the most frequently least talented spot on the line? Mebane could easily make Tommie Harris impact here.
The best pass rusher on the team is usually the defensive end to the open side of the field. That puts him on the quarterback’s blind side and makes him a C gap player in this defense. We often align him wider than this in order to give him a better angle of attack and allow him to play in space. We align him a yard outside of the offensive tackle most of the time. He has to play C gap run support but at the same time he is rushing the passer like it is third and ten. He has to be able to close down however if the tackle blocks down on him.
The open side is the opposite of the OLB who’s on the line. With us, that’d more be weak side, and TEs more often line up on the right. If Kerney returns to form it’s only good news, of course, but in a way, without being our best pass rusher, Tapp, nearly at his prime, if not a premier player, would seem to be put in a position that most maximizes his abilities and minimizes his liabilities. He can control a gap and make the play on runs very well. Providing containment on his side, as the end, though, has been a problem. Hill’s made up for quite a bit of that, but that only covers up what kind of a problem it’s been.
Assuming for a moment that Carroll’s assertions about the end’s responsibilities hold true when switching to an Over, and he’d stay on the defensive left and Kerney or Jackson/Atkins on the right, he’d more frequently not be the open side DE, but the strong side, with Curry directly next to him, responsible for providing containment, up against a TE, while Tapp just has C gap assignment and won’t be a liability. He was Encino Man when required to read power running plays against the Packers’ wishbone and the Dolphins’ Wild Cat, but having less responsibility and more direct objectives would help make him a better player. Is this sounding awesome or what.
The Will linebacker is aligned against the offensive guard to his side of the field. He is basically a protected player in this alignment and should make a lot of tackles. He has to control his weak-side A gap and play relative to the Mike linebacker and the Free Safety.
Leroy Hill. We need a guy who can make a lot of tackles. Yes, cover less and blitz more, but as a base formation, again our best players are put in the most impactful positions, and in ways that maximize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses.
The Free Safety is the force player to the open side or weak side of the ball. He works off the defensive end’s play. The Defensive End works for leverage and force. The Free Safety works off of the Defensive End and fills where he is needed on run plays for example. If we are playing Cover 3 behind him the Strong Safety is going to have the middle of the secondary behind him but also fills off the linebacker’s side as needed depending upon the play. If the Sam linebacker does get hooked for example the Strong Safety will then have to come up and make the play….The two Safeties are both fill where needed sort of players. The have to keep everything on their inside shoulder.
Let’s play worst case scenario and include Brian Russell. Is he worse as your post center in cover 3 with your CBs with Grant in the box? Or as your run supporting safety? He’s lost two steps, and can’t tackle on angle, or take reasonable angles against ball carriers. Against receivers on a route, before they get the ball, he still makes the right angles to keep containment. And, roughly head on with a ball carrier running north south, he’s made most of those tackles well. I could see him being average as our safety in the box, presuming this is substantially different in approach for run support than he or our conventional understanding of strong safety/run support constitutes.
I’ll leave it to your reading the article, long but amazing, to absorb the weakness of the scheme, the liability for longer, successful runs if the one guy at the point of attack doesn’t do his job. The pertinent stuff is scattered. What that would mean, with Russell in the box, is a guy like Frank Gore could be stuffed on 90% of his plays, but 4 go for a total of 120 yards, as he gets into the second level and evades Russell easily. While I think Russell’s strengths/weaknesses better match box safety, I think the weakness of the scheme would dictate him being post safety, and with all the Roy Williams and Bob Sanders coming out of college, a good, fast free safety figures to be harder to find.
I really don’t know how Jamar Adams scouts out. Since he’s tall I somehow had the idea that he wasn’t another LB/S hybrid type that is hard to make a true safety out of in the NFL, but then Terreal Berria was a tall safety, too. Maybe Curry & his assignments mean Babineaux is the first nickle in, in place of Russell. I don’t know. It’s definitely still the one concern on defense, regardless of scheme. That aside, though, this is sounding tremendously awesome.
by jacobstevens on May 12, 2009 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, PPT slides are up
looks like they were just broken when I viewed it last night, in Chrome. Using IE for the RTF features for posting, right now.
by jacobstevens on May 12, 2009 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

by 














