Over and Under
by abender20 on Jun 29, 2009 8:47 AM PDT
in Seahawks News & Rumors
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PrintI'll keep it brief as I'm limited on time this morning. Football Outsiders (Aaron Schatz, specifically) assembled a list of the 25 most overrated and 25 most underrated players of the last decade. Thanks to ESPN snapping up FO, you'll need to be an Insider to view all 25 and the explanations, but the top 10 from each group are listed. Any surprises on that list for you? It warms my heart to see the Halls (Dante and DeAngelo) sharing adjoining suites in the top 10.
If we were to compile a list of the most overrated and most underrated Seahawks in the last decade, who deserves a mention?
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Maybe it's just because we're in the NFC West,
but I don’t consider Holt underrated.
A few years ago, I put him, Harrison, Moss, and Owens as the top WRs year in and out, with Chad Johnson looking like he might join the group.
Westbrook, also no underrated since you hear every nationally televised Eagles game that ‘Donovan might not even be the best player on his team, that honor might actually go to little Brian Westbrook’.
I’m glad Engram is up there. Him, Adrian Wilson, and Derrick Mason should be top 10 on most people’s lists.
7 pro bowls, 1 all pro, made espn's all decade offense.
I don’t think Torry Holt can count as overrated.
I can’t see the complete list, but i would put Terrell Owens pretty high on the overrated list. He made all-pro 5 times, but topped out at 100 catches (only once), and maxed out at 1451 yards. Meh.
by B.B.Finnegan on Jun 29, 2009 9:17 AM PDT up reply actions
Huh?
9 1000+ yard seasons, 5 consecutive, 8 multi-TD seasons, including leading the league in receiving touchdowns 3 times, his 139 receiving TDs rank second only to Jerry Rice.
I don’t like the dude, but there should be little doubt he’s one hell of a football player. He ranks 5th on the all-time career receiving yards list and is likely to catch up with Marvin Harrison this year (they’re only 500 yards apart), and if he gets a 1000 yards more he’ll shoot up to second all-time receiving yards. Those’re hall of fame numbers, what’s there to overrate? People call him a great football player, and that’s what he is.
by Thomas Beekers on Jun 29, 2009 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions
Michael Vick on the over rated list surprises me
I tend to agree with Advanced NFL Stats about Vick. I’m also not sure I like Ty Law on the over rated list.
I always thought Bryce Fischer and Itula Mili were under rated. The myth that was Robbie Tobeck has grown way out of proportion, he’s the only guy that pops into my head when I think of over rated Seahawks.
John had said something like that about Tobeck, recently
I definitely held him in moderately high regard, and didn’t think too many others did. Holmgren definitely thought highly of him. What exactly is this myth? I remember Holmgren talking about how good Tobeck was at getting defenders to engage the way he wanted them to, and then block them out of a play he’d otherwise not have the physical abilities to beat. It’s hard to observe that kind of stuff, much less rate it. How overrated is he? I was about to put him on the underrated list.
by jacobstevens on Jun 29, 2009 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions
Underrated Seahawks:
- Matt Hasselbeck
- Brandon Mebane
Overrated Seahawks:
- Mike Holmgren (yeah, I said it)
- Shaun Alexander, after he got his big contract
- Deion Branch?
- Julian Peterson, especially last season
- Brian Russell, but mostly by the Seahawks management and coaches
- Josh Brown, but mostly in his own mind
There is a difference between overrated and temporarily overpaid.
Alexander was a tremendous fit for Seattle offense and put up some astonishing numbers in the prime of his career. He got injured, the line got worse, and then his contract looked ridiculous.
Yeah, that's why I added the "after his contract" qualifier
But it wasn’t the money that put him on my overrated list. It was the fact that the national press continued to fawn over him during that time. According to them, he was still the star of this team even after his production had obviously declined. We always seemed to be billed as “Shaun Alexander and the Seattle Seahawks,” as if he were the lead singer in a Sixties-style rock and roll band…and the rest of the team was the Rondelles.
I disagree with much of this.
I don’t think Alexander was a perfect fit at all for our offense. I believe that there were a whole lot of running backs that would have been better for us, notably those that could block and catch. Shaun was terrible-to-middling at both.
He was also consistently getting caught behind the line of scrimmage while looking for the “big play”, leaving Matt in 2nd or 3rd and long. What the WCO needs, particularly Holmgren’s, is a back that can nab you at least a few yards every time.
Shaun absolutely did put up phenomenal numbers, a lot of those being stacks of TD’s as the Hawks blew away terrible NFC West teams. Not only did Shaun rarely run hard if a TD was not at stake, he would frequently disappear in big games.
This isn’t to argue that I wouldn’t have wanted him here, or that he wasn’t an exceptional football player. I’m only saying that he was incredibly overrated, perhaps the most overrated player in the league for a while.
It bums me out that people forget 5 amazing years of football in favor of the last 2 terrible ones
Alexander was not without fault but he’s one of the most accomplished players in the history of Seattle sports. He rushed for 7,500 yards between 01 and 05. He lead the league in rushing in 05 and was a yard short of the rushing title in 04. He broke the single season rushing touch down record. He was an MVP, an all-pro and a multiple time pro-bowler. From 01-03 he roughly matched LaDainian’s receiving DYAR. I have a hard time seeing how he didn’t earn any attention he got.
As far as the criticisms you laid out against him I’d love to see some splits of Alexanders NFC West rushing numbers vs. non-NFC West numbers. Just looking at ’03 his numbers break out more or less equally between in conference and out of conference:
In Coference: 19.3 carries per game, 88.5 yards per game, 4.5 yards per carry
Out of Conference: 21 carries per game, 90.4 yards per game, 4.3 yards per carry.
The touchdown argument always seemed weird to me. Why Alexanders ability to get in the end zone made him soft between the 20’s instead of clutch in the red zone I’m not sure.
Those years were fantastic and Alexander will never be overrated in my mind because of them
Regardless of his steep descent into mediocrity.
Alexander is underrated by many because his career ended so badly.
Some people can’t distinguish between the rusher he was and the rusher he became.
Some of the hardest nosed runners, when the opportunity to score was in front of them
still found a way to give it a little bit more. I could see it in Eddie George, too. Whatever George was or was not, he mostly embodied the criticisms of Alexander’s running style. If even he was clearly running through more tackles, or at least attempting to, giving a bit more on the runs inside the 5, I don’t see why Alexander ought to be criticized for it.
I always remember Clare Farnsworth telling about Ricky Watters’ assessment of Shaun, in the first year of his career. Clare said Ricky kept saying, Shaun’s in trouble. Clare asked, why? He said, he makes it look too easy. He doesn’t look like he’s trying hard enough, and when he doesn’t get the yards people are going to be mad.
by jacobstevens on Jun 29, 2009 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Hm.
I’ve taken a lot of flack over my dislike of Shaun Alexander for a long time. I’ve been arguing that he’s overrated since way, way back in 2005 when everybody was splooging over his gazillion TD’s. I always felt that his numbers were incredibly inflated by a soft conference, incredible blocking up front, and a smart QB. I always felt that his numbers came at a cost to the team’s performance, because he’d bog down the offence with his lack of receiving/blocking abiliity and tendency to get caught for negative yardage.
I also disliked his me-first attitude, which is clear to anyone with a pair of eyes. It bugged me, as I loved the team overall and couldn’t stand the idea that this guy got all the glory while people like Matt, Walter and Hutch were really much more valuable to the team’s success.
It’s really just a matter of failed potential. Given his talent and the offensive people around him, he could have been the greatest ever, but his attitude stunk and detracted from the team.
I fully understand that other people here, including yourself, feel nothing but gratitude to Shaun for helping put the Hawks on the map and bringing us as close to a Superbowl as we’ve ever been. I will just never get over my subjective, personal impression that Shaun was more about Shaun than he was the Seahawks.
You forgot a word
Given his God-given talent and the offensive people around him…
It’s how SA would have wanted it.
Shaun definitely drove me nuts at times
He’d come off the field after failing to convert a third down and have this giant grin on his face, I wanted to punch him every time.
I don’t blame people for not liking him, I just wish people would appreciate more what he did here. To me it seems silly to complain that he could have been the best ever but was instead only the second most productive back of the decade. Alexander was a really special player, it’ll be interesting to see if he makes any noise on future hall of fame ballots.
I think that's kind of the point.
He just didn’t seem to CARE about the team. How am I supposed to appreciate a guy when he (appears) to care more about himself than the team?
Do you have any evidence of this?
Yes, it was obvious Shaun avoided contact whenever possible, and that should be held against him. But to what degree? Does that justify calling a grow man selfish? We all do or say things that, from a certain perspective, comes across as selfish. We all want what is best for ourselves, because that is human nature
if you have other evidence to back up your claim I’m all ears, but please don’t sully a man’s name just because you don’t like him.
Evidence?
No. What am I supposed to do, post clips of Shaun pouting on the sideline? I guess we could watch Shaun complain about being “stabbed in the back” after the Hawks finally clinching a playoff spot after a zillion years.
That was the clincher for me. Can you imagine Matt, or Walter, or Lofa saying anything like that? We Hawk fans have been attacking T.O., Moss, and other favourite hateds for years for the same kind of comments, what gives Shaun the free pass?
This all said, it did look to me like he did work hard to dispel a lot of the doubters later in his career. I think in 2007 he had a few games where he really hit the holes quite hard and impressed me. I only wish he’d done that in 2005.
"Hawks finally clinching a playoff spot after a zillion years"
That happened in the dreaded ‘04 season. I’d like to know how clinching a playoff spot in ’03 to clinching one in ’04 is a zillion years.
And even if you changed that to “clinched the division for the first time in a zillion years” you’d still be thinking 5 years is an eternity.
Andy Reid is the only coach in NFL history that uses the pass to set up the pass.
Wierd, facts off. But it was still a massive, massive game.
The energy was amazing, unlike any sporting event I’d ever been to. Things were very up in the air at that point, it was a very tight game with the season on the line. And all Shaun can think about is his records…
I didn't watch the game
Followed the game tracker since I didn’t live in Washington, at the time. But I do remember that the Falcons were playing some backups and the defense stopped the two-point conversion to win the division.
Shaun should’ve blamed the defense for stabbing him in the back. They could’ve let them score and maybe get the ball for 1 yard.
I’m not sure his attitude should affect what you think of him. As an all-around player he’s grossly overrated because he can’t block and has bricks for hands.
As a running back? He’s Seattle’s greatest.
Andy Reid is the only coach in NFL history that uses the pass to set up the pass.
The odd thing about his hands...
is that they got worse over time. I saw him play a game in college when Alabama went into the Swamp and knocked off Florida when they hadn’t lost a game there in like 50 games or some such.
And Shaun was awesome. If anything, he was getting his yards in the air since the Florida D was so quick Bama struggled to move the ball on the ground.
But he played hard, had like 250 combined yards in the game, and even took a crossing screen pass in which he got headhunted and his helmet got knocked clean off. He did make the catch. And he missed one play and was back in the game.
At that moment, I wished he could become a Seahawk, and then he ended up being a key player in the greatest era in Seahawk history.
Please, for the LOVE OF GOD, stop suggesting next year's 1st round pick (or picks) be used for Taylor Mays and or a QB of the future. Let's just let the season unfold, people, and evaluate much deeper in the process!!!
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jun 29, 2009 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Okay, that is evidence right there
I had forgotten about that quote, and saying something like that right before the playoffs was very bad. Considering that he hadn’t even said anything else like that throughout his career here — even when the Seahawks were on the verge of releasing him, he didn’t say anything too inflammatory — maybe we could give him the benefit of the doubt, and maybe he said something that he now regrets.
IMHO, I’m not too concerned about a player’s public statements; I think it is worse if a guy says all the right things when the camera is on, but then becomes a selfish jerk during practice and games and so forth. Shaun has been away from the organization for about a year; so far I have not heard of any former teammates bashing him, even anonymously. Doesn’t mean there’s nothing coming down the pike, but perhaps his teammates didn’t see him the way you do.
I don’t know Shaun Alexander, and he hasn’t said enough or done enough to question his resolve as a team player. Some people (and I’m not accusing you of this) have the knee-jerk reaction of taking players with obvious limitations, and assigning character flaws. It is possible a man may look to avoid contact from 300-pound defenders, and still be a committed and well-liked teammate.
I tend to do the opposite... where there's smoke...
…there’s fire. I.E. if this is what he says on camera, what can he be thinking?
Anyhow, I have to admit my lingering annoyance with “SA” has a lot to do with the adoration he tends to receive from some fans for whom our public acceptance is the only thing worth considering. Haven’t met anyone like that here, though.
You're not alone
While I don’t personally care as much about his attitude (I won’t pretend to know what’s really going on inside his head – despite the blowup over the yard in ‘04), I think he was the beneficiary of the NFL’s best offensive line from 2001-2005 (or certainly one of the best with two future Hall of Famers) and I exhale slowly when I fantasize about what might have been with a more physical, downhill runner (and a slightly better playcaller) especially after Matt’s porchlight went on midway through 2002.
The National media seems of the opinion that Shawn Alexander lifted the Seahawks to national prominence. I believe our offensive line lifted the ’Hawks AND Alexander to national prominence. Thus, numbers be Goddamned, Alexander is very much overrated in my mind.
When Hutch went down
Alexander still had a good 2002. I agree that Hutchinson and Jones are overall better players than Alexander, but he wasn’t wholly dependent on them.
Topic for
a separate, unending discussion, lines and backs and who makes who.
John Madden said a few times, a great back can make a line great, but not the other way around. Clearly a great line makes any back better, so I always took it to mean, great backs are. And because of themselves, and not because of the line. But the flip side is that you’re not going to turn Ahman Green into Emmitt Smith just because he’s behind the 90’s Cowboys line.
by jacobstevens on Jun 29, 2009 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Other 'Hawks...
Underrated:
Rufus Porter
Dave Krieg (so he had little fumbly girl hands, get over it)
John L. Williams (don’t know if he’s underrated HERE)
Overrated:
Ricky “I can’t get a yard” Waters
Funny, I was going to come in and call Watters underrated.
:(
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on Jun 30, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions
I just remember in the 97-99 ish era...
whenever the ‘Hawks were at a 3rd and 1, 4th and 1, what have you, Ricky Watters couldn’t get that yard to save his life. Couple that with his early career yaking in SF and his starting over Charlie Garner in Philly (who I thought was a better RB) and I think Watter classifies are overrated.
Cross off Peterson he's a lion!!
Holmgren?? you have no defense, you have had plenty of O. Alexander is the best Seahawk back ever, so that says alot about your history. Hassleback is not that great he’s rated right where he should be. In the clutch in the playoffs, well You know, “We want the ball and we’re gonna score” Housh made a predictions, I’m looking for the same results!
aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)
Please make an effort at grammar and punctuation.
Shaun Alexander has more rushing yards than any running back in the history of the 49ers.
Hey, he's funny.
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on Jun 30, 2009 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Hmm... I'll play.
UNDERRATED:
Joey Galloway – was an absolute thrill to watch as a Seahawk, making mincemeat out of quality corners on a consistent basis. Still a quality player who I think could be in for a big year in New England with Moss and Welker taking up all the attention.
Chris Spencer – takes way too much flack from Seahawk fans, probably due to his first-round status. Obviously not a great player, was a bit of a reach, but my guess is that he will turn into a very good center quite soon. The question is, will he be a Seahawk when he does it?
Mack Strong – I don’t think people realize how important this guy was to Shaun Alexander’s career… maybe as much so as Hutch.
Chris Warren – kind of lost in Seahawk history since his teams weren’t all that great, but this guy could run the ball.
Rick Mirer – there, I said it. Actually had a couple of decent seasons here, though it helped that we could run the ball. I really think under better circumstances he could have developed into a quality long-term QB.
OVERRATED:
Shaun Alexander – easily the most obvious, in my opinion. Had unnatural talent but lacked a whole slew of abilities needed to be great, and benefited hugely from playing behind maybe the best left side of an offensive line in the history of the NFL. Only ran hard when the endzone was in sight.
Josh Brown – yes, he hit a few very important kicks, but he also faltered in some big games (Superbowl…) and couldn’t get a touchback to save his life. Also kind of a douche.
Lofa – Plays hard, is smart, a great team guy. But a little small and a little slow, gets washed out too easily unless he’s very well protected (admittedly all MLB’s do, but he seems more vulnerable). Very important to the team, but I don’t think he’s quite as good as the attention he’s getting.
Mike Holmgren – as someone said above. Too staid in his ways to accept the league was changing. Terrible at clock management. Stuck with veterans long after they should have been shipped off. A certified genius in his prime, masterful with QB’s, but his nearly legendary status as a head coach baffles me when so many other coaches have done far more.
Oh, also file "Megan Fox" in overrated.
She’s not a Seahawk, or even a football player, but this poor, poor girl (who actually seems very nice) is easily the most overrated thing to exist on planet Earth.
I respectfully disagree good sir.
Using the mute button might sway your opinion.
by Airborne Hawk Guy on Jun 29, 2009 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions
Agree completely about Megan Fox
She’s a big-time two-face; can look pretty good but usually looks mediocre or worse (for a Hollywood starlet, that is).
Also agree about Mack Strong, who had bonus points for the coolest name in football.
Wow, Chris Warren. Good call!
Remember that All-Pro game when he and Marshall Faulk were competing to see who could get the most yards? If memory serves, Warren won that game within the game.
Mirer was a former option QB on a team that wanted to go deep, like the Raiders. He had a good rookie year nevertheless. What doomed him, in my opinion, was when Bill Walsh called him the next Joe Montana.
I kinda agree with you on Lofa. But I’d put him on the overrrated list with a question mark, as I did with Branch. I think they both have the potential to live up to their reputations. Time will tell.
Not a fair knock on Alexander, Emmit had on e of the best lines in History.
Rick Mirer was a joke you have got to be losing it. I remember Warren, no where near Alexander.
aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)
No one said Warren was better than Alexander, only underrated.
Alexander is a God in Seattle (and the NFL history), whilst Warren is almost completely forgotten.
A couple of things to add.
Former Hawks:
I don’t think Alexander was overrated: League MVP, 1 yard short of a rushing title (which if Holmgren gave him the ball one more carry, he’d likely have had). Single-game rushing record, 266 vs. the Raiders, no less (I was at that game). I hesitate to allow his last couple of Seahawk seasons ruin what was otherwise one of the best careers by any Seattle player. He was rewarded with a fat contract he couldn’t live up to. The questionable move in hindsight was the contract itself at his age for a RB. True, he has shortcomings as a receiver and pass-blocker, but his strengths were enough to gain proper perspective on how great he was. He did have a few years of solid catch numbers: 44, 59, 42 in ‘01-’03. He was clutch had a nose for the goal line (TD records), and missed very no games his first 6 years. That’s good for a RB.
Cortez Kennedy, underrated. I watched him get triple-teamed (and usually at least a double-team). Rarely do I ever see that. He was like Steve Emtman in college vs. his opponents, except at the pro level. He should be a HOFer already!
Current Hawks:
Mebane, Trufant, Hill underrated
Keeping two kickers, overrated. :/
Early prospect watch: RB C.J. Spiller, QB Jevon Snead, OT Ciron Black, DT Gerald McCoy, S Eric Berry, DT Ndamukong Suh, CB Ras-I Dowling 6'2, 200, RB Jonathan Dwyer
I wear his jersey with pride.
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on Jun 30, 2009 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions
What'd you think of Anthony Simmons?
He’d probably go on the over rated list but the few times I watched him when he was healthy I thought he was amazing. There was a Rams game that I went to and he was everywhere Marshall Faulk was.
I don't think Simmons made many productive tackles
He seemed like he was always catching up to his man instead of tackling down hill.
He had a hit in the '03 game vs the Rams that shook my TV
Against one of their backup RBs, I believe. Screen or quick out and Chad just LEVELED him, then knocked the ball out of his hands while he was standing over him. That was one of the few times I’ve went back to replay/pause and catch the confusion, shock, and fear on a runners face… each in their own glorious phases. Chad definitely put him in another world.
I think that game is still on NFL Network Local on demand, might have to revisit it again just for that hit.
It felt like a turning point toward a new era when we signed Chad the way we did.
Paul Allen, private jet, and a briefcase full of astronomical-at-the-time signing bonus cash. It signaled good things to come. I also loved Chad.
Early prospect watch: RB C.J. Spiller, QB Jevon Snead, OT Ciron Black, DT Gerald McCoy, S Eric Berry, DT Ndamukong Suh, CB Ras-I Dowling 6'2, 200, RB Jonathan Dwyer
Josh Scobey was a pretty good gunner and returner in 2005
Itula Mili was constantly trying to be replaced and really was limited, but was a good player.
Michael Sinclair stuck around too long based on his production in the late 90s.
I think Isaiah Kacyvenski was overrated by some because he was Seattle’s special teams captain in 2005.
Agreed on Mili and Sinclair.
But whatever Scobey did as a gunner, I thought he was a pretty weak returner. Never seemed like much of a threat to score.
Charlie Rogers, though, that guy could really move.
We have had a good stretch of gunners, it seems
Bannister, Scobey, Kaz, I think there’s been others in limited duty. Til this past year, usually had good gunners for the Holmgren era.
by jacobstevens on Jun 29, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions
I really miss Scobey
When he came back in 2008 and destroyed Arizona’s special teams to win us the division it was tear-jerking.
He off-sets stiffs like Willie Ponder and Jimmy Williams flubbing everything.
Andy Reid is the only coach in NFL history that uses the pass to set up the pass.
I always thought Darrell Jackson was underrated
He’s out of the league right now, but he was fun to watch back in his prime years.
During his run of productive play, and in spite of his frying-pan hands, I also loved Darrell.
It was fun to watch him succeed despite not being all that big or all that fast.
Oh man, I hope that's a sick joke.
Didn’t exactly help us in the Superbowl. Waaah…
He might have been underrated,
but his hands sure weren’t.
Early prospect watch: RB C.J. Spiller, QB Jevon Snead, OT Ciron Black, DT Gerald McCoy, S Eric Berry, DT Ndamukong Suh, CB Ras-I Dowling 6'2, 200, RB Jonathan Dwyer
HAHA, do you guys remember that Pittsburgh game?
I can’t remember the year, but Jackson dropped like three straight passes. Then he finally caught a five yard out or something, the crowd roared in sarcastic approval, and Jackson gave a mock salute. The announcers laughed their ass off.
Yes, I think so.
You’ve basically summed up the story of DJax’s career. ;)
Early prospect watch: RB C.J. Spiller, QB Jevon Snead, OT Ciron Black, DT Gerald McCoy, S Eric Berry, DT Ndamukong Suh, CB Ras-I Dowling 6'2, 200, RB Jonathan Dwyer
If it weren't for Shannon Sharpe saying Freddie Mitchell should cut of his hands...
I would have though DJax’s hands among the worst.
Early prospect watch: RB C.J. Spiller, QB Jevon Snead, OT Ciron Black, DT Gerald McCoy, S Eric Berry, DT Ndamukong Suh, CB Ras-I Dowling 6'2, 200, RB Jonathan Dwyer
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to read FO? that sucks.
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