Deon Butler through the Lens of History
It's tricky scouting a wide receiver without coaches' film. You don't see much and what you see can be misleading. The NFL has a sense of what it is doing. Simple things like the round Deon Butler was drafted in and how many wide receivers were selected before him provide important information. So does his height/weight/speed profile. The point here is to do a little pre-scouting to provide some perspective and define expectations.
Starting out, Butler was selected in the third round and was the 14th receiver selected in what looks now like a rich and deep wide receiver class. Wide receivers selected in the third round have about a 12% chance of making a single Pro Bowl, a 4% chance of making two and a 3% chance of making three or more. The fourteenth wide receiver selected in a draft class has a 10% chance of making a single Pro Bowl and 5% chance of making three or more. Third round selections average about three hundred yards per year and the fourteenth wide receiver selected averages about 150 yards per year. Those are all very modest predictions for Butler and are indicative of the high rate of failure among wide receivers selected in the middle and late rounds.
Butler doesn't have a great shot at being a superstar, but if he does somehow, what kind of profile does he fit? To figure out Butler's profile, I will use Rob Pitzer's work from Pro Football Prospectus 2008. In it he proposes four successful wide receiver types: Slight, short, thick and tall. He uses height and BMI to categorize each type. Butler, unfortunately for us and maybe unfortunately for Seattle is between types: not tall enough for "slight" and not heavy enough for "short". Michael Crabtree also fits between types, too thick to be "slight" and too tall to be "short". As Pitzer puts it, "Elite wide receivers come from relatively small intersections of height and BMI." Not to get too far afield, but Heyward-Bey misses, Maclin barely fits within "short", Harvin is "short", Nicks misses, Britt is "tall", Robiskie is "slight", Juaquin Iglesias misses and Mike Thomas is apparently too short to qualify. Butler added 14 pounds before running at the combine and would need to add another six or so to be "short". For the sake of projection we'll call Butler short and ignore that's he doesn't exactly fit. After all, building a system with the assumption that an athlete's weight is static seems like a shaky foundation.
So, to conclude all this, I'll pick five players that fit Butler's range of success.
Bust
Dexter Jackson: Jackson was drafted in 2008 and so it's early still, but he was bad in the preseason, didn't play wide receiver in a regular season game and had his return duties stripped after week seven. Physically, the two are near-duplicates. Jackson is 5'9 ½" and 182 pounds. He's a burner that is knocked around by bigger more physical defensive backs. He has decent hands but lets some balls into his body. Jackson ran a 4.37 forty. Jackson was taken in the late second round and was the tenth wide receiver taken in 2008.
Disappointment
Charlie Rogers: Seattle selected Charlie Rogers in the fifth round of the 1999 NFL draft. He was the 17th wide receiver selected. Rogers had one reception in his five year career, but was a very good if fumble-prone return man. Rogers was a 5'9", 180 lb burner from Georgia Tech.
Break Even
Todd Kinchen: The 5'11", 187 lb Kinchen was selected in the third round of the 1992 draft. He was the sixth wide receiver selected overall. Kinchen had a few productive seasons, but never started. He was a good kick and punt return man, but his speed faded as he aged. He finished his seven-year career with 95 receptions for 1,358 yards and 10 TDs.
Good
Don Beebe: Beebe was selected in the third round of the 1989 NFL Draft by the Buffalo Bills. Beebe was the tenth wide receiver taken in a time when there were fewer teams and fewer teams running spread-style offenses. Beebe was a 5-11, 185 pound burner that was never great individually, but contributed to six Super Bowl teams. Beebe was bigger for his era than Butler.
Great
Derrick Mason: Mason was selected in the fourth round of the 1997 NFL draft. He was the ninth wide receiver taken. Mason was a standout return man at Michigan State and also a good receiver. He started his career in the NFL as a below average kick and punt return man, and z-string wide receiver. He had a breakout season returning in 1999 and a breakout season as a receiver in 2000. He ranks 30th all-time in reception yards with 10,061.
How rare is Mason? I just spent almost two hours finding him. The ranks of short/skinny/fast mid-round receivers is littered with failures and features only a few even modest successes. Preliminary analysis says he has a better shot of being a good return man than a good wide receiver. Of course, a player isn't defined by their type; they are partially defined by their type.
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Deon Butler here is listed at 5’10" 182: http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/deon-butler?id=71233
Eddie Royal here is listed at 5’ 10" 182: http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/eddie-royal?id=1990
Royal was selected a bit earlier, 42nd overall (2nd round), as the 5th drafted receiver in a draft not a single player at that position was taken in the first round, while Butler lasted 50 more picks as the 14th receiver taken in a draft that saw 6 receivers taken in the first round.
Still with similar skillets and body type to Royal, Butler could be better than advertised.
Also, another guys with a similar body type (5’11" 171) and very close draft position is Harry Douglas, who had 23-320-1 receiving his rookie year. He was selected 84th overall (3rd round) and the 13th receiver taken in ’08.
I’m hoping he’s closer to Royal, but as defined in the post above, that may be unrealistic. Still, I don’t think there is reason to think it’s impossible.
Early prospect watch: RB C.J. Spiller, QB Jevon Snead, OT Ciron Black, DT Gerald McCoy, S Eric Berry, DT Ndamukong Suh, CB Ras-I Dowling 6'2, 200, RB Jonathan Dwyer
Sorry for trolling an old post, but this seems to be too good of a fit to leave alone
Steve Smith, the good one, seems to be a player with almost identical combine numbers to Deon Butler.
Smith (numbers from wiki so may not be 100% accurate)
Height 5’9"
Weight 185 Lbs
40 yd 4.38 sec
20 yd Short shuttle 3.85 sec
3 cone drill 7.44 sec
Vertical jump 38.5"
Bench Press 19 reps
Wide Reciever taken overall 11th with pick 77
Butler
Height 5’10"
Weight 182 lbs
40 yd 4.38 sec
20 yd Short Shuttle, I couldn’t find this one, but the two players he was between on the 60 yd shuttle were Jeremy Childs, and Austin Collie who’s 20 yd times were 4.26, and 4.24 seconds respectively.
3 cone drill 7.01 sec
Vertical Jump 34.5"
Bench Press 12 reps
WR taken overall 14th with pick 82
When I saw we took Butler on that fateful day, I was hopeful that he can become the dynamic homerun threat that Smith is all over the field. While I realize expecting this type of greatness isn’t reasonable, and instant success for a receiver is highly unusual, looking back at Smith’s career and the players drafted ahead of him, I’m praying we found a similar player.
by Btown Bomber on Jun 10, 2009 10:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Vely intelestink
Steve Smith II … Interesting vert. difference. Smith has hops, eh?
Early prospect watch: RB C.J. Spiller, QB Jevon Snead, OT Ciron Black, DT Gerald McCoy, S Eric Berry, DT Ndamukong Suh, CB Ras-I Dowling 6'2, 200, RB Jonathan Dwyer
Well it was an interesting look at information.
If you take that information and then compile it with more you might get a better assumption?
Body type and rank of being drafted I think is a red hearing of sorts.
The first question is what attributes does this player have? or What type of impact is an organization thinking they are going to get from a player?
Are they drafting them because of KR or PR abilities based off of speed and then hoping to make them better WR? Are they drafting them to hopefully spread the field vertically or horizontally?
What type of WR is he? Is he a possession route runner or just a speed guy. Does he takes hits? What are his hands like. Does he catch the ball or cradle it? Does he adjust his correctly according to where the ball is thrown?
I have seen very little of Butler. The biggest thing that I see/read is that he is a speed WR that runs and understands how to run routes and was used as a possession type WR in college. I would like to get recordings of all his pass attempts just to see how he positions his hands to catch ball.
Welcome to Field Gulls.
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Body type and draft position are well studied
Ironically enough, the questions you ask are a sort of red herring. It’s a blitz of information taking the subject away from something that is studied and towards something that’s nearly indefinable.
Answering the questions along with selection number
would be better predictor of outcome then body type and selection number.
Is the point of doing the research just to see how body type and selection number predicts production or how to predict a players production? If it is the first question than sure my questions are red herrings. If it is the second then it augments to make a more accurate/complete picture to make a prediction.
Looking for a simple way to predict something usually gets simple answers. The piece seems to me a small part of the information needed to make a prediction. The WR position is complex. There are a lot of variables that come together to make a final outcome.
Honestly, JM's point is that your questions are not predictive questions
The answers to your questions can’t elicit usuable data to make predictions.
Strangely enough, however, your first question (What attributes does this player have?) is one that falls into line with this post, in terms of physical attributes.
Type of organizational impact (aka special teams ace or a field-spreaderer)? Doesn’t matter what the org thinks in terms of prediction. In fact, the usuable data we have for what the 32 organizations though of Deon Butler is his draft slot. Basically, there were X number of wide receivers, and other players, taken ahead of Deon Butler.
As for the type questions and skill-set questions, again, these are not predictive questions. A person can “catch the ball”, but if they can’t separate due to their physical attributes in the NFL, they are done. Dane Looker was an awesome college receiver. I loved watching him play football. He is simply not athletic enough to get in done on the professional level beyond a 4th-string player on a horrible team.
The point isn’t that your questions don’t matter at all. Of course they do, in the sense that a productive NFL wide receiver will possess good hands, and be able to separate, The point here is that one can start off with a reasonable prediction based on a few points of data. Now, a reasonable prediction does not necessarily mean an accurate prediction. There are plenty of undrafted players who proved the entire NFL wrong about them, and vice versa for 1st round talent. However, JM has already done this sort of research looking at drafted quarterbacks, and the results are somewhat striking. The Hasselbecks and Bradys of the NFL are a rarity. You want a great quarterback? You pick the 1st quarterback available.
"Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery?" - Dr. Venture
It'd be interesting to see success rates for players that teams traded up to get.
To me the Butler trade never really seemed to fit but his speed and largely positive scouting reports have me really interested.
O RLY?
Keeps reminding me of Joaquin Noah of the Chicago Bulls and Joaquin Phoenix :(
(Although I’m sure I spelled both wrong)
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on Jun 9, 2009 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions
What the hell? SBN is being weird, double-posting and deleting the bodies of my comments >:(
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on Jun 9, 2009 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions
I find it surprising
that so many people who participated in the poll, would be satisfied with an average of 250 per season, over 4 years. These people will have long lives, without the stress of readably achievable expectations.
If all goes well, he's going to be behind Housh, Branch, and Burleson on the depth chart.
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on Jun 8, 2009 8:21 PM PDT up reply actions
4 years from now?
Looking forward, what he does in years 3 and 4 should / could more than make up for the 4th link in chain you provided.
I think he means it is conceivable that Butler only gets
200 yards in 2 years time. Which would make 800 in the 3rd and 4th years, which is not horrible.
I understand,
but while 800 in years 3 and 4 isn’t horrible, I’m not sure I would find it satisfactory. Are we projecting he’s still be 4th on a depth chart. Or can we feel comfortable me moves up to a 2? And if the comparisons to Engram end up holding true, your 700 yard scenario becomes even more appealing. In fact, that would be awesome. Too many variables, that’s why I chose to take the numbers as a whole rather than try a predict how.
The last time a Knapp offense produced a 1000yd WR was T.O. with 1102 in 2003.
and the 2nd leading WR was Tai Streets with 47rec for 595yds. That’s why I went with option B in the poll – because unless he grows into a primary WR, I don’t think he’ll get close to to 1000 in a season. And just looking at the raw stats for Knapp’s past few years, 600-700 yards seems to be on the high end for a secondary WR.
I’ll be very happy with the Butler pick, and consider it a success if in 4 years he’s our 2nd/3rd WR. But even then, in this system that may still just mean 500-600 yards per season. IMO, even if he’s starting by year 2, Butler will be doing really good to crack 2,000 yards receiving by his 4th year
"...even if he’s starting by year 2, Butler will be doing really good to crack 2,000 yards receiving by his 4th year."
I’ll second that while feeling disapointed if he were to have only half that total in 4 years.
I have a feeling I'll be more disappointed in the OC, than Butler himself.
I’m just not picturing us having a high-octane passing game. So Butler could be progressing quite nicely – but due to “established vets” ahead of him and lower amount of pass attempts to spread around – just not putting up the yards.
Based off the O’s Knapp’s run the past 5 years, the 3rd WR contributes about 300 yards. Even assuming that our passing game is improved over that due to having Hass instead of the Vick/Russell combo, Butler would also have to displace Burleson or Branch on the depth chart to see lots of reps in 3WR sets. And Knapp uses 4WR sets very infrequently. 600 yards over his first 2 years, in this system, sounds very realistic, IMO.
As would I
I honestly can’t believe the people who expect a 1000-yard season in 4 years time from a 3rd-round undersized WR. Seriously, if that’s what it takes to satisfy you on a 3rd-round pick, you might want to reconsider whether or not your expectations have anything to do with reality.
by Thomas Beekers on Jun 9, 2009 4:19 AM PDT up reply actions
How soon the memory fades.
I would’ve bet money that Darrell Jackson (3rd Round, 15th overall) would’ve been your “Good” man in the success spectrum. Throw out his throw-away 2008 in Denver, and he’s averaged 63 yards per game, 14.25 yards per reception, and 6.25 TDs per season. In comparison to Beebe, that a mite bit better than “good”.
The comparisons were players that matched Butler's height & weight
Darrell Jackson is 6’0" 201lb, quite a bit bigger than Butler.
Ahhhh yes. I remember that part now.
I’ll crawl back under my rock now.
by KHF on Jun 9, 2009 8:38 PM PDT up reply actions
In 4 years
I’d be disappointed if Butler didn’t put up at least 2,500 yards
Butler I’ve always said was the 2nd best WR to Crabtree in this draft then came Ramses after Butler.
Cited
That's a lot of yards.
If he didn’t have so many WRs in front of him… maybe… but for now that would be something like 200 yards, 500 yards, 800 yards, 1000 yards?
That's one thing I try to address in the first comment.
There were no 1st round WRs taken in ‘08. This year there were 6. This could imply that this year’s WR class was much deeper than last. If Butler was in last year’s draft, an argument could be made that he would have been drafted as many as 6 spots higher – putting him within striking distance of Royal’s draft slot and being a 2nd-round player instead of a 3rd. His body-type is nearly identical to Royal’s. We won’t be playing Butler nearly as much his rookie year – we don’t have to, but the possibility is that he could evolve into that type of player. I think there is no question Royal is already capable of 1,000 yard seasons, having 980 his rookie season. Butler also had better college production. It’s amazing that Royal never eclipsed the 40 reception mark in college (33 rec in ’07).
He wouldn’t have had so many receivers in front of him had he been in the ’08 draft.
Early prospect watch: RB C.J. Spiller, QB Jevon Snead, OT Ciron Black, DT Gerald McCoy, S Eric Berry, DT Ndamukong Suh, CB Ras-I Dowling 6'2, 200, RB Jonathan Dwyer
I meant TJ, Nate, and Deion ahead of him,
but that’s a great point as well. This year’s WR class was supposedly deep (I say supposedly because we all remember this Tim Couch draft). If none of the first round receivers existed, does Butler get drafted earlier? Yes, because the teams that had originally drafted a WR still need them. Also, if Butler were a higher rated prospect coming into college, like his teammate, Derek Williams, would he have been drafted higher? Probably as well.
1st year – 300 yards
2nd year(3rd on the depth chart) – 600 yards
3rd year(2nd to T.J) – 800 yards
4th year(#1 receiver) – 1,000 yards
(49er/PSU fan)
Maybe, but
I don’t see Butler having the tools to be a “#1 receiver”, if there is such a thing. He could become a #2 in a #1’s role, though (like Branch). I’m just saying without all the ‘terms’ that Butler should not be counted on to be a teams primary/leading receiver – at least as I picture a player like that. I picture guys like Andre Johnson, Fitz, 85, etc. It’s all debatable, though.
Early prospect watch: RB C.J. Spiller, QB Jevon Snead, OT Ciron Black, DT Gerald McCoy, S Eric Berry, DT Ndamukong Suh, CB Ras-I Dowling 6'2, 200, RB Jonathan Dwyer
How many current
NFL “stars” fit into these profiles? I’m curious because I’m wondering if these 4 receiver types are in any way predictive. As in, if a player perfectly fits into a certain profile (say, tall) is he more likely to succeed in the NFL? Is one type particularly successful? Is there any disadvantage to being a tweener?
23 of the 25 leaders in yards per game from 1998-2007 fit into one of the four profiles.
To quote Pitzer: “The odds that 23 of the top 25 receivers would come from these areas by random chance is 36 million to one.” The exceptions are Santana Moss (but only for a brief time in his career) and David Boston.
Thanks JM.
Is there a certain profile that seems to suggest more success then others? Or do all four profiles more or less have equivalent success?
No Engram comparison?
A lot of talk immediately after the draft was hoping that Butler was the next Bobby Engram. I’m sure part of it was the Penn State connection, but Engram is 5’10" and 192 (dunno how much he weighed when drafted). He was the 10th receiver (late 2nd round) in an outstanding WR draft. Five of the nine WRs picked ahead of him have been Pro Bowlers. It seems that Butler gaining six more pounds to qualify as the “short” type is very possible, and I assume that Engram qualifies as “short.” For curiosity’s sake, does anyone have a link to the four body types?
Butler is a burner, Engram was always more of a possession guy
by seattlebruin on Jun 10, 2009 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually, I've had a couple of Penn State fans tell me he isn't as fast as his 40 time would suggest.
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on Jun 11, 2009 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions
If you haven't watched this, I saw just some glimpses of his speed...
But what I like the most after one of the posts here on FGs drew my attention to it would be his blocking. There is also a nice leaping catch at about 2:40 and he shows some hands in traffic a time or two. He’s no Logan Pane…
http://draftguys.com/index.php/articles/dgtv_1/deon_butler_-wr-_penn_state/
Early prospect watch: RB C.J. Spiller, QB Jevon Snead, OT Ciron Black, DT Gerald McCoy, S Eric Berry, DT Ndamukong Suh, CB Ras-I Dowling 6'2, 200, RB Jonathan Dwyer

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