John Carlson at Seattle Seahawks Training Camp
by John Morgan on Aug 10, 2009 8:37 PM PDT
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PrintI am attending practice tomorrow morning and I'll fold the two practices into pieces for Tuesday, Wednesday and maybe Thursday. It's a bit late, but here's a quickie look at the day's events.
It rained for much of practice and the offense struggled. I focused on the offense, specifically Seattle's wide receivers, and even more specifically Deon Butler. I'll hold off on writing anything definitive about Butler, but he had a down day today and especially struggled with missed passes and drops. Again, especially for a wide receiver, another day of viewing is in order. Jordan Kent has already established himself as a training camp superstar, but not everyone can own the VMAC like Jordan.
The highlight of the day for me was John Carlson. Carlson is remarkable. His route running is ever perfect and however he times out on a track, he looks remarkably fast. He doesn't blow by defenders, but his routes are smooth and his cuts without wasted motion and that allows him to get to his spot in a hurry. His hands are and have always been superb. Among other tight ends, Cameron Morrah looks bulky, agile and slow. John Owens is huge and slow - not a receiving tight end by any stretch. Joe Newton is growing into his own. And poor John Tereshinksi was having troubling doing anything. He lost his feet on a post pattern, dropped a pass and then got clobbered in pass protect drills.
Carlson owned pass protect drills to the delight of fans. He dominated every matchup, locking on and locking down defenders with good timing, hand placement, shadowing and strength. Four up, four down without a man getting by him or even close. This was a weak spot for Carlson as a rookie, but he's showing dramatic improvement.
Aaron Curry covered Carlson on a one-on-one drill towards the conclusion of practice. Curry stayed close with a well timed backpedal, was shoulder-to-shoulder into Carlson's break, and dropped like garbage the second Carlson broke towards the left sideline. No knock on Curry, because no one knew where that route was going but Carlson and the quarterback. After a special rookie season, kid might be dashing towards superstardom in the 2009 season.
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He shined during Saturday's practice, too
So glad I got two of his autographs on my Carlson jersey :P
The demise of the Broncos in '09 is our future. Pray hard.
by Nick Andron on Aug 10, 2009 8:40 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
I thought the White Jesus moniker was reserved for Tim Tebow.
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on Aug 10, 2009 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions
So I guess that means Shaun Alexander is Black Jesus.
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on Aug 10, 2009 10:53 PM PDT up reply actions
What about Mary Magdalene?
Too many questions for uncontested virginity.
I'm gonna go calm submissive on your ass.
Has he been asked to run 40 yards in a straight line while clad in underwear yet?
40 times have nothing to do with playing football while (a) wearing pads, (b) running 5-10 yards at a time and © fighting through bumps after (d) running around for hours in the searing PNW sun.
I don't know if they have NOTHING to do with football.
I’m pretty sure if you get a bunch of normal guys who run 6.0s, they’d suck.
"nothing to do with football while . . .[doing all that stuff]"
Yes, fast guys tend to run fast, but not all 4.6 guys play at the same speed.
A couple of us have mentioned:
it can be tough to judge players’ speed from the distances and angles at training camp. It either takes some getting used to, or it’s just different because of the change from TV or 1, 2, or 300 level seats to viewing at camp up close and personal.
Early prospect watch: RB C.J. Spiller, QB Jevon Snead, OT Ciron Black, DT Gerald McCoy, S Eric Berry, DT Ndamukong Suh, CB Ras-I Dowling 6'2, 200, RB Jonathan Dwyer
No kidding
Being from the Bay, I’ve seen a fair share of Cal games, and Morrah was pretty fast on the playing field. I was surprised that he’s slow in practice being that his speed was probably his trademark in scouting reports and on the field.
by aerozeppelin on Aug 10, 2009 10:29 PM PDT up reply actions
As was I.
I might chalk it up to the wet field.
by John Morgan on Aug 10, 2009 10:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Well he'd better get used to it.
I like the kid though and was pretty pumped when we drafted him.
The Nick Reed pick was the one that puzzled me. He could he be Tapp’s replacement as a situational pass-rusher after this season… uh oh John. Guess Tapp’ll just have to explode onto the scene with a double digit sack season and earn that franchise tag outright haha. He’s got some stiff competition in Redding, Spencer, and Sims though.
by Hawkhammer19 on Aug 10, 2009 11:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Reed might be transitioned to LB due to size
I believe it was John that said it in his training camp notes.
The demise of the Broncos in '09 is our future. Pray hard.
I'm not sure that were anything concrete to support that speculation
but it’s pretty common to try to turn undersized DEs into OLBs.
Concrete?
He weighs less than most LBs. That’s about as concrete as it gets.
That and the fact we likely won't carry 5 DEs
the first four being Kearney, Tapp, Redding and Jackson. He’s got more of a chance making the team as a LB as he does a DE.
The demise of the Broncos in '09 is our future. Pray hard.
Ah right, I forgot about Atkins.
I doubt the team carries more than 5 DEs :P
The demise of the Broncos in '09 is our future. Pray hard.
Has he played any snaps at LB or have the coaches talked about him transitioning?
It obviously makes sense for him to turn into an LB, but I have the suspicion that the coaching staff may try some crazy stuff and may play him with a hand in the dirt.
Heck, this is a team that carried 2 kickers for a whole year. Don’t rule out the crazy here.
Don't chalk it up to wet field
I’ve been to a few of the practices where it was completely dry and sunny and the dude looks slow….it’s not the field at all
You can read what I wrote about him at SeahawkAddicts.com….they posted 2 different articles with my observations and I mention this both times about Morrah
I Bleed Blue and Green
Can cut and change directions quickly and smoothly without losing any momentum, but in a dead sprint will be passed by your grandma.
Tried to overemphasis so the difference is pronounced, but that’s basically it. If Deion Branch were to run a route with three cuts against an average LB, that LB would probably fall down from trying to change directions with him. John Carlson having good agility is a big part of why he is a great route runner, and how he gets separation. Considering he is matched up against linebackers, some of who can run at his speed, he uses that and his height to completely over-match the shorter and less agile defenders.
Oops, I thought your comment was about the wrong player.
I do struggle with this format, connecting a hanging comment to the one it came from sometimes.
The same general principle applies to Carlson, who is somewhat agile and slow, as would to Morrah if that is the truth about him.
Carlson sort of reminds me of
Steve Largent in the body of a TE. Largent was the same kind of precise route runner, deceptively quick, poker faced receiver with great hands Carlson seems to be becoming. Largent would make his breaks so precise and quick that he threw off coverage like Carlson does. Maybe we have Largent reincarnated in the body of TE. Wouldnt’ that be awsome. High praise for Carlson, but he sure reminds me alot of Largent in terms of what he does that sets him apart from his competition.
Yeah?
He reminds me alot of Largent in terms of the fact that both will enshrined as Hall of Famers who played their entire glorious careers as Seahawks.
<_<
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on Aug 10, 2009 9:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Here's hoping.
The second part, not the first. I’m reasonably sure (reasonably for a player in his second year) he’ll make the HoF, I just hope he spends his whole career with us.
Wow
Crowning ourselves a king a bit before he’s pulled the sword, eh?
For a 2nd year player?
Sure. That means If he sucks this year, I give him about a 5% chance and if he does well this year, I give him about a 30% chance. That’s about as sure as I can get for a 2nd year player.
He won't suck this year
He was great last year and his skills have only improved, as has the talent around him. Doesn’t really make sense for him to regress (unless he suffers some sort of debilitating injury that prevents him from performing)
The demise of the Broncos in '09 is our future. Pray hard.
I don't think he will either.
Honestly, I think any “regression” in his receiving numbers will probably be based more off of a loss in opportunities than anything related to Carlson. And his blocking should only improve.
Totally agree
In fact, less targeting him less would likely make him more dangerous, from a “sleeper” point of view. If defenses are spending most of their time preventing receptions to WRs, Carlson could be used in critical situations where it’s not expected for the TE to get the ball.
Is this under-utilization of an ultra-talented player? Probably. It’s just a thought, though :)
The demise of the Broncos in '09 is our future. Pray hard.
by Nick Andron on Aug 12, 2009 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Wouldn't that be awsome
This guy’s going to earn big money when his rookie contract is up, and he’ll be worth every penny.
Carlson last year
was like that one house/tree/whatever that remains standing during and after a tornado. Everything else is going to shit around it but somehow, someway it is unfazed.
by Hancock.Brett on Aug 10, 2009 10:03 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Excellent analogy.
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on Aug 10, 2009 10:52 PM PDT up reply actions
And when that tree at last runs barren of fruit,
we sharpen our bowsaws and reduce it to firewood. In this way we give to it the gift of gift-giving, of giving back to us, one final time.
In this circle-of-life spirit so shall Carlson, on the day of his retirement, be painlessly put down and instantly rendered into dozens of tidy little bangers. The finest potatoes and barrelfuls of Guinness will do blocking duty from plate to palate as our proud 12-time Super Bowl MVP— God save me from this, people, but the pun stands like Ayers Rock between here and the end of this sentence— goes down the middle one final time.
To gain the strength of the beast, you eat the beast. As they say when they hand you the wafer, pro vobis et pro multis.
by shams on Aug 10, 2009 11:06 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
High all
New guy here but long time SeaHawk fan.I really like the depth of the scouting and the overall tone of the site.My son #2 played center for ASU and I tend to watch the O line play closer than most so maybe I will put up a report card for the O line guys every week when the[damn it when is season going to start?] season starts.
by southern oregon on Aug 10, 2009 11:38 PM PDT reply actions
The "new fanpost" link is your friend
and I’m sure any glowing reports of, say, Unger would be very well received. Cheers and welcome.
I am a Duck guy and I have watched him play quite a bit
I thought it was a great pick and still do
by southern oregon on Aug 11, 2009 12:21 AM PDT up reply actions
And to think there were some people who thought we should draft
Justin Keller.
It's Great to be a Florida Gator!
Ah, yes.
6 am does those things.
It's Great to be a Florida Gator!
by Wayward Llama on Aug 11, 2009 5:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, I liked Fred Davis, but still wanted Carlson the most.
I saw Carlson as the most balanced, and carried a lot of Jerramy Stevens’ strengths. Keller is a good receiver, but his blocking is suspect and I thought JC would be better helping our o-line.
Considering Davis had camp issues, then only had three catches for 27 yards on the season, I think we did pretty good.
It's Great to be a Florida Gator!
by Wayward Llama on Aug 12, 2009 5:02 AM PDT up reply actions
I also wanted Carlson the most
but I don’t think anyone thought he would come out and have that good of a rookie season.
I was half and half on the Dustin Keller debate.
But I wanted John Carlson the most.
That said, Dustin Keller didn’t do so bad last year, at least in the receiving department.
Sam Bradford, future Seattle Seahawk.
by Carl Shinyama on Aug 11, 2009 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions
Carlson embarassed the hell out of Curry
during TE coverage drills on Saturday. It was quite funny actually.
I chalk it up to nervousness and excitement. He was on the field for all of 15 minutes when he started the drill.
The demise of the Broncos in '09 is our future. Pray hard.
Training camp is weird. Every positive is also a negative.
I’m glad Carlson looked good, and I expect big things out of him, but since Curry’s coverage skills are so good, I’d expect a big fast guy like him to be one of the best TE covering LB in the league, if not this year, then next year.
John was saying he looked more effective in zone than man
I’d expect Carlson to abuse linebackers, especially in practice situations, but it’d still be a lot of fun to watch those two battle.
Lets not forget
One of Carlson’s primary strengths when drafted was his blocking skills. That he has become such a good receiver is something of a surprise. If his blocking development mirrors his receiving improvement, he’ll certainly play nearly every down.
I always thought Newton blocked pretty well in preseason, especially for a TE that wasn’t known for his blocking. I hope he gets a good look, but something tells me that Mora isn’t going to keep seven TE’s on call like Holmgren did.
I thought it was the opposite
I thought Carlson was scouted as an excellent route runner / receiver with average blocking skills.
The demise of the Broncos in '09 is our future. Pray hard.
SI's 2008 scouting report on Carlson:
BIOGRAPHY: Former fullback who started the past three seasons at tight end. Senior-year totals included 40/372/3 after career-high numbers of 47/634/4 as a junior.
POSITIVES: Hard-working tight end who does the little things well. Fluid releasing into routes, displays good eye/hand coordination, and makes the difficult reception in a crowd. Smart, aware pass-catcher who comes back into the clearing of the defense and remains focused throughout the action. Uses his frame to shield away opponents and displays reliable hands. Gives effort blocking, showing footwork and the ability to slide laterally in pass protection.
NEGATIVES: Possesses marginal speed and does not make plays deep in the secondary. Bends at the waist and shows limited strength as a blocker.
ANALYSIS: Carlson is a high-effort prospect with good intangibles. Solid in many aspects of the game, he projects as a number two tight end who will contribute for a team.
RLTW!
by Airborne Hawk Guy on Aug 11, 2009 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Of the top TE prospects in the 2008 draft
Carlson was far and away the best blocker, which is why I stress his blocking skills so much. He was due to have an immediate impact in his rookie year, because he can actually both block and catch. I think that’s far more dangerous than a great receiving TE who is just a static body when it comes to blocking.
I’m partial to blocking TE’s though. Essentially another O-lineman. John Owens is my kind of guy.
Martellus Bennett.
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on Aug 11, 2009 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions
What was the knock on Martellus Bennett?
Injury, or character (or Witten).
I did like Craig Stevens, but he didn’t fill a role in Holmgren’s O that a dozen other backups couldn’t fill. So I guess not “Top”.
I know evety one said Holmgren’s O needed a legit TE receiver to realize its full potency, but I figured Holmgren would never need a pure catching TE, because his passing schemes were potent enough with WR’s (unless they all get injured). Therefore, in order to maximize the TE as a scoring threat, you’d need one that could block, but was athletic enough to catch. Jerramy Stevens did pretty well, but he was a reciever first. He could never deliver a decent run block other than holding a guy in place.
When you think about it Carlson is really the perfect TE for the Seahawks during the coaching transition, because he’s not a liability in the Knapp Run scheme as a Keller or Davis might be.
Holmgren valued a two-way TE immensely.
He could have 2 WRs or 3 WRs and still run or pass if he had the right kind of TE. That’s what he said.
I felt Carlson was more of an all-around TE
Didn’t particularly excel in any specific category but did a fine job in all respects.
by aerozeppelin on Aug 11, 2009 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Remember that we'll be running a ground-based offense
So I’m not getting my hopes up for Tony Gonzalez-like stats
Incorrect to a certain extent.
They’re playing in an offense that has a OC who is playing to the strength of his players. They will be balanced, doing both the pass and the run well. Yes, the OC has a run-first mentality, and has nearly a 50-50 run-to-pass ratio at other stops, but Knapp himself said that he’s going to tailor the offense to the strength of the team’s personnel, and not the other way around. Yes, they’re implementing the ZBS, but that doesn’t mean that they won’t pass more than they run, given that their passing game seems to be their primary strength this year.
Sam Bradford, future Seattle Seahawk.
by Carl Shinyama on Aug 11, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Ah, I see
Thanks for clearing that up. It’s reassuring to know that
Algre Crumplers numbers under Knapp:
44 catches, 552 yards, 3 TDs
48 catches, 774 yards, 6 TDs
65 catches, 877 yards, 5 TDs
56 catches, 780 yards, 8 TDs
All 4 years under Knapp he was a pro bowler.
and in Oakland
Zach Miller
2007 44-444 3 td (rookie year)
2008 56-778 1 td
It seems Knapp really likes the mismatch of TE vs LB. Carlson, if doing as amazing as I’ve been hearing out of training camp, could end up with a monster year.
by B.B.Finnegan on Aug 11, 2009 7:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes but in both situations
he had QBs that were not the greatest of passers, and probably relied more on their TEs than most QBs. So I’d take the numbers with a grain of salt.
It's goes both ways
No WR’s gives a tight end more looks, but better wide receivers gives the tight end more quality looks. The quality of tight end also matters, if you put Joe Heller in there, i don’t think he’ll be getting 40-50 catches.
A better offense could also lead to more sustained drives, and thus more opportunities. Surrounding cast is really a hard thing to quantify. I honestly don’t know if better wide receivers helps or hurts.
by B.B.Finnegan on Aug 12, 2009 10:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Will Heller?
Joe Newton?
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on Aug 13, 2009 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Joseph Heller.
Of course he wouldn’t get 40-50. He can only Catch-22!
(It’s truly disgusting how pleased with myself I am after that.)
by thebyron on Aug 13, 2009 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Oh, you clever you.
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on Aug 13, 2009 11:24 PM PDT up reply actions
I wanted to grade you down for too much effort.
But once I realized your comment was combining the TE names I realized how clever you had been, even if you did try oh so hard. Nice catch.
True, but bad QB's
Don’t go through their progressions well. Which could mean either the TE was targeted a lot (Which means Knapp likes using the TE) or despite the QB’s shortcomings the tight end was so wide open even a Michael Vick couldn’t miss him.
Anyway, I guess what I’m saying is, I’m not sure how being a bad passer means you rely more on the TE? Bad receivers, I think the link could be made, not so sure when it comes to bad passers. I also seem to remember Vick having a pretty could long ball, it was the short passes he couldn’t complete, which are the type of passes that usually go to tight ends.
by B.B.Finnegan on Aug 12, 2009 10:42 PM PDT up reply actions
TE's are often used in a
dump off role, so a bad QB would often panic and dump off to his TE or RB rather then go through his progressions or move around in the pocket to avoid that sack. I think that’s the idea LantermanC was going for.
True, but I don't know if that's as applicable to Vick.
His dump-off option was often to tuck and run.
I saw a lot of Falcons games at the time (living in Atlanta)
Vick’s progression most often went: 1) look deep 2) start to run 3) Did LB abandon Crumpler? 4) Okay, run.
There was also a lot of stuff, especially early in games specifically designed to go to Crumpler – lots of roll outs, where it looked like Vick either had the option to throw to him, or then take off.
Just my layman’s impression, but it looked like Knapp really relied on the TE to be a safety valve. Kinda what Bobby Engram/the slot was in Holmgren’s version. Same position, just different personnel. While Holmgren prefered the 3WR package, Knapp liked to keep it 2WR/1TE.
It’s hard to separate cause from effect. I’m sure part of the TE numbers have to do with protecting young QB’s (Vick, then Russell) by providing a security blanket, some from having talented TE’s, and some from simply a greater importance on the position in the scheme.
Because we have more talent at the WR position than Knapp’s had to work with since he was in San Fran, and supposedly a more effective QB, I expect we’ll see him fall back to more 3WR & 4WR than he did in OAK or ATL. But not, IMO to the levels that Holmgren used it, and I gather that in a lot of the “3WR” sets, Carlson will simply be moved into the slot, and he’ll get plenty of looks.
I think expecting the type of season Carlson had as a rookie, or what Crumpler & Miller put up is a stretch, because there will be more pass distribution amongst the targets. But I can see him churning out seasons like Stevens did in ’05 as the norm.
I agree.
1.) Throw deep to Roddy White Y/N
2.) Dump off to Alge Crumpler or Warrick Dunn Y/N
3.) RUN! Y/Y
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on Aug 13, 2009 9:30 PM PDT up reply actions
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