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Around SBN: Bob Sapp Denies Throwing Fights

The Importance of the 14th Pick.

 

The business has hit it's annual auto-pilot phase.  Our winter/holiday development cycle has concluded, and the production lines are running at a boring, profitable pace.  I hate this time of the year. I have no idea what to do with my extra hour (or two) during the day.

I decided to use a couple spare hours to create a FanPost about how critical the Seahawks first selection was; however, I needed to make sure that I wasn't doing so just "to do so".  

Instead of creating on the fly, I decided that channeling my inner Edward R. Murrow (I'm a big fan, and he is renowned for his thorough preparation) would be more appropriate. I studied. I studied draft charts. I studied trade value matrixes.  I studied scouting reports.  I studied team needs capsules (not just for the Seahawks, but for nearly every team); however, the more I studied, the more I began defending my position against myself.  I have concluded that I was wrong.  

My original title was going to be "The Importance of the 6th Pick". 

I have decided to "throw the flag" and live with the results.  This is what I now believe.

Star-divide

What Seattle does with the 14th pick is more important than what it does with the 6th pick.

Some draft picks bust.  All the game film, workouts, and interviewing, oftentimes don't reveal the flaws that lie beneath the surface. Some prospects either have trouble leveraging their physical tools to become productive NFL players, or they get caught with 55 pounds of the sticky-icky in the back of their trunk.  Either way, it's an acceptable part of the numbers game known as the NFL draft.  You win some.  You lose some.  It's something I can live with; however, there needs to be a distinction made between the value of a pick, and the success of a pick.

Barring the advent of an NFL draft crystal ball, it doesn't make sense to discuss how successful a draft is until years after the fact.  You don't need to be an ESPN analyst  to figure out that Lofa Tatupu was a successful selection in the second round. After all, the going rate for a pro-bowl caliber MLB you'd think would justify a top-10 selection.  There must be a way to evaluate the relative strength of projecting a particular player at a particular spot in a draft.  I believe that measure is a "slippery" word called value.

"Value" is one of the more annoying terms that I have read in making the internet rounds. It's annoying in that value cannot be, yet so often is, looked at in a vacuum. It's slippery in that, more often than not, it's used as a catch-all for "I like this pick", and rarely backed up with inductive evidence to support where the value is.  We read about a player's value as it relates to a subjectively ranked prospect pool, rather than the players worth relative to a teams needs, financial situation, and ability to finding the same impact through alternative means. 

Value certainly isn't universal.  What may be a good value for one team, might be a horrible for another.  St. Louis drafting Jimmy Clasuen at #1, is a far better value than Detroit doing so at #2.  It boils down to a combination of risk assessment, projected return on investment, and the replaceability of the pick through other means.  

Every draft is uniquely "organic" in nature.  Each has it's own life.  This year, in what's been called a deep draft in many critical areas of need for Seattle, there presents itself, an opportunity to leverage more talent for Seattle, by understanding what truly constitutes a value for the team.  

The Value of the 6th Pick ultimately hinges upon where you believe the talent threshold lies.  I'm hardly a draft expert, so I  can only base my opinion on the collective scouting that has been done around the internet; however, if you subscribe to the notion that one of: Berry, Clausen, Bradford, or Morgan will be available to Seattle at #6, then it's not a stretch to assume that Seattle is positioned very near the bottom threshold of the top tier talent (with pick number 6). Additionally, each of these prospects would fill a glaring need for the team and, with the exception of possibly Berry, would carry contract numbers very much in line with the expected return on investment for their respective positions. 

Remember, this isn't about how successful the pick turns out.  Again, you win some and you lose some.  This is about the value of the pick as it relates to risk, ROI, and the ability to replace the pick through alternate means. What this all means, is that Seattle is sitting in a very good value position at #6.  The pick represents for Seattle, the lowest investment within the top tier of talent.  They almost can't go wrong with the pick from a value standpoint. 

The 14th pick represents both a value concern, and an opportunity for Seattle.  Relative to the Seahawks needs, and the likely pool of prospects that may be available at #14, this may be the weakest value position of all Seattle selections.

The value of the likely list of players that may still be available at #14, are almost indistinguishable from those that may be available to the Seahawks at #21.  Their expected ROI's are nearly the same.  At or about the 14th pick, the names begin to vary wildly from source to source, suggesting that the talent level form 14 to about the mid 20's is fairly interchangeable depending on how one assesses the needs of the teams picking in this range.  

A quick eyeball test, shows distinct tiers of talent as it relates to Seattle's team needs.  

Tier 1 (#1): Ndamukong Suh.  Untouchable.  Clearly in a league of his own.

Tier 2 (#2-7): Gerald McCoy, Eric Berry, Jimmy Clausen, Sam Bradford, Derrick Morgan. The names could change based on personal opinion, but the concept should hold up (that relative to Seattle's needs, there are about 4-5 elite talents available in this draft).  The Seahawks sit at the back end of this grouping which maximizes the value of the pick.

Tier 3 (up to #14): Russell Okung, Joe Hayden, Bruce Campbell, Anthony Davis.  Again, the names may vary depending on how you scout and who you trust, but the theory is that this is likely to be a group selected before Seattle is on the clock.

Take a guy like CJ Spiller at 14. John very convincingly described what type of impact Spiller could have for the Seahawks.  That impact, although different in nature, is no more or less dynamic (in theory) than the impact of what a prospect like Brian Price could bring (also profiled in the way that only John can).  I would expect the same type of Return On Investment from a guy like Price, as I would from Spiller. The "value deficit" is in that Seattle sits at the leading edge of this band of talent, whereas the value is in being on the trailing edge

A final consideration is an additional pick that could be acquired by going from #14 to (for lack of a better number) #21.  Those 300 points represent a late 2nd, early third selection, and in a draft loaded with talent in the 2nd - 4th, getting back our 3rd form last year would be a nice coup. 

The Seahawks need to add impactful youth to it's roster. The exchange of #14 pick, for a mid 20's pick (of comparable impact and better value), plus an additional 2nd or 3rd, could give Seattle the chance to pull off a draft for the ages.  Much like Dallas' huge drafts of the early 90's, the Seahawks handling of the 14th overall pick could turn the franchise around.

 

This is what I believe.

 

Postscript:  It would also be a nice "flipping-the-bird-at-Denver" bonus having traded "Alphonso Smith" for a mid 20's pick and a late 2nd/early 3rd rounder.

Comment 27 comments  |  14 recs  | 

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Very well written piece. I love the thorough investigation.

I had spent so much time thinking about trading the #6 pick or combing the picks I hadn’t thought much about trading back from 14-20 or so. That would be ideal since that would be a great spot to pick up Price without it being a reach or finding some other great talent that is probably pretty close to the talent level of #14. Adding a 3rd rounder would make that pick even better. Let’s hope someone really wants that 14th pick.

Also a die-hard Hawks fan.

by Hopefulmsfan on Jan 22, 2010 2:22 AM PST reply actions  

I appreciate it

It’s just one school of thought, but it grew on me the more I studied the potential value scenarios. I have always liked the idea of trading back for more picks, but wanted to formulate an argument that made sense. As it turns out, I talked myself out of trading the 6th, and into the 14th.

For what it’s worth.

Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.

by iverson2169 on Jan 22, 2010 7:35 AM PST up reply actions  

Normally I'd be very happy trading down for the 21st and getting a late 2nd early 3rd (Selvish Capers?).

But I think this year the talent at 14 is too enticing. Price, Spiller, Dez Bryant, and Earl Thomas are all very enticing and I think all will be gone by 21, and for whatever reason, I feel like picks 21 and on aren’t as good (in terms of BPA and position), though Dan Williams is intriguing and I’d love to either try him out in the 4-3 or switch to 3-4.

by LantermanC on Jan 22, 2010 8:51 AM PST reply actions  

I like how you support this idea!

A third would indeed be nice. If I’m the Seahawks FO and all the guys I was aiming for at 14 are gone, and I think it’s more than possible to get OUR guy at 19-22 I’d definitely attempt to trade back. Somehow getting more players is more enticing than getting a slightly better first-rounder.

Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...

by Cheddar28 on Jan 22, 2010 9:39 AM PST reply actions  

Totally agree that there should be at least one "elite" talent at #6, so it's worth maximizing value

And the ideal scenario would be to have a trade in your back pocket to move down from #14. If somebody you think is a top-8 or maybe top-10 talent slips to #14, you keep the pick. If nobody randomly slides down, you trade out and hopefully recoup that 3rd-rounder (3rd-round picks are nice).

Then again, the value of that #14 pick varies wildly based on who’s available and whether some team lower in the first round feels compelled to jump up and get their guy before he’s gone.

So refuting my own wish: it’s really hard to have a trade “in your back pocket” in the first place. Guess they’ll have to wait and see how it shakes out.

P.S. Great description of value (worth the rec); the concept is instructive even if we all change our minds later about where the value lies in this particular draft.

by busplunger on Jan 22, 2010 10:06 AM PST reply actions  

I wanted to argue for Spiller to be in your 2nd tier at first...

but I think I understand your position. Based on your perception of Seattle’s ‘needs’ leavens the field in relation to player talent level overall, as I understand it. If we were speaking of elite talent – Spiller represents that – just not in the context you describe. However, I would contend that the top player at nearly any position probably represents ‘elite talent’, save for the inclusion of positional disparity (Center, Punter, Kicker, etc.) as it relates to value. I think your definition of Seattle’s ‘needs’ are the one thing that I disagree with.

Though you clearly substantiated much of this piece around that core belief, my perception is different from yours at the foundational level of this article. I believe that unless we have an All-Pro player at a position, it should be considered a ‘need’ for the Seahawks. In that sense, only LB, P, K (if Mare is re-signed/tendered) should be exempt from our needs list. I would include Mebane in that, but there is still another DT spot which is a need.

Early prospect watch: RB C.J. Spiller, QB Sam Bradford, OT Ciron Black, DT Gerald McCoy, S Eric Berry, DT Ndamukong Suh, RB Jonathan Dwyer

by Misfit74 on Jan 22, 2010 11:12 AM PST reply actions  

Sure thing

I think that what would differentiate most peoples drafts. The assessment of what are needs is really not my premise however. Those names and ideas will vary from person to person.

I think what tipped the scales for me, was picking up the extra 2nd or third at little to no drop in expected impact (my opinion of course) by going from 14 to 21’ish. My expectations from the 21st pick would meet, exactly, the expectations that I would have from the 14th (in this draft class). That picking up an additional pick at “no cost” is what tempts me.

Thanks for the thoughts.

Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.

by iverson2169 on Jan 22, 2010 5:18 PM PST up reply actions  

A thorough and well supported argument that I totally appreciated reading even if I do not completely agree with its thesis.

I would counter that being at the leading edge of a band of talent allows Seattle to not only get the player it thinks is best, but also the player it most needs. It’s kind of like having the first overall pick without the contract implications.

by John Morgan on Jan 22, 2010 2:42 PM PST reply actions  

A great counter argument...

I have a meeting to run to but want to explore that when I get back.

thx.

Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.

by iverson2169 on Jan 22, 2010 5:19 PM PST up reply actions  

Since we all agree, that retrieving the 3rd round pick

would be great, at what point do think the risk of trading back (and not getting their “guy”) hits the point of diminishing returns?

I suppose I can answer my own question. Since the draft is such a fluid and unpredictable entity, the Seahawks would need to have a real time monitor that charted the predictability of certain events with some sort of a scenario emulator.

Kind of like watching the World Series of Poker on ESPN. After the flop turn and rivers are dealt, the winning probability of each hand is reflected as a percentage of 100. When Seattle is on the clock at #14, there would be some kind of percentage given to “favorable scenario” A B or C happening. At that point, an educated decision could be made regarding whether gaining back a 2nd or third round pick, would be worth the risk of trading back X number of spots.

Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.

by iverson2169 on Jan 23, 2010 4:58 AM PST up reply actions  

Or, if they can effectively communicate with other teams,

get a feel for the draft and which players will fall (like how did Miami know that Henne would fall to them in round 2?), etc. The team can decide if who they want will be there and evaluate the risk of trading back and still getting their target or one of their targets. I think a lot depends on the team’s draft board and their ability to deal with other teams. Schneider has an established network in the NFL due to his experience with other teams. This will be put to the test pre-draft, in-draft, and post-draft. Essentially, I think the people and the relationships will be a larger determining factor than a straight numbers game. Yes, they’ll have to play the percentages and evaluate the variables, but much will come based on intel from around the league, experience dealing with other teams and personnel people and the like.

Early prospect watch: RB C.J. Spiller, QB Sam Bradford, OT Ciron Black, DT Gerald McCoy, S Eric Berry, DT Ndamukong Suh, RB Jonathan Dwyer

by Misfit74 on Jan 23, 2010 11:13 AM PST up reply actions  

This is exactly what I was thinking.

And considering that the Seahawks could use talent upgrades at pretty much every position outside of TE and LB, this gives a lot of flexibility to either stick at 14 or trade down.

I’m a big fan of trading down from 14 if there’s enough quality there, even if it only nets a late third or early 4th.

by djafrot on Jan 23, 2010 11:24 PM PST up reply actions  

Very well written

I like this kind of content!

[DELETED ZOMG NO POLITICS]

by bluemax on Jan 22, 2010 3:28 PM PST reply actions  

Me, too. Time to 'Rec'

Early prospect watch: RB C.J. Spiller, QB Sam Bradford, OT Ciron Black, DT Gerald McCoy, S Eric Berry, DT Ndamukong Suh, RB Jonathan Dwyer

by Misfit74 on Jan 22, 2010 3:58 PM PST up reply actions  

I think I speak for a lot of us when I say

That I like how you use your free time!!

Talents that I covet:

Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes

by Carl Shinyama on Jan 22, 2010 8:24 PM PST reply actions  

It Takes Two to Tango

You present a good reason why the Seahawks might look to trade down at #14, given that the talent available between 14 and 21 is about the same. However, the flip side of the argument applies: Why should any other team want to trade up to take a player at 14 when they could get an equal talent at 21?

It’s like last year, when the ’Hawks had #4. I heard a lot of people exclaiming, “Trade down! Trade down!” Some other team has to want to trade up, and they have to make it worth your while to get the pick.

If you can identify someone who wants what you’ve got, then trading down or out can be a good idea. Flipping last year’s 2nd rounder for this year’s #14 was a great example of that. So is just about every Jack Zduriencik move: He identifies what another team wants and then serves it up to them on a silver platter.

So, who wants what the ’Hawks have? Why would some other team want to move in to the #14 spot?

by robbbbbb on Jan 25, 2010 2:27 PM PST reply actions  

Value.

What may be valuable to one team may not be to another. In this case, my premise revolves around the fact that between 14 and 21, there are so many prospects that potentially fit Seattle’s needs. I suppose one would have to find the dancing partner that fit the bill.

I can assert this however. The teams that sit around the 21st spot, are “just about” playoff teams. Potentially, teams that feel they are one guy away. Seattle has a great deal of flexibility in that there are legitimate needs in half a dozen positions.

Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.

by iverson2169 on Jan 25, 2010 6:31 PM PST up reply actions  

Another idea is that Seattle might trade Kerney or someone else to recoup the missing pick(s).

Abraham got a first-rounder, but was younger than Kerney is now. Kerney, as a situational pass-rusher, which is what Abraham has become the last two seasons (at least) for Atlanta, could help a team that way. I think he could be worth a 3rd rounder. I wonder what others think. I bring up Abraham because that situation is recent precedent of a similar situation. The deal also involved Denver moving up in the first round – so some of the value was pick-related other than just a single pick or multiple-pick compensation. That was a 3-team deal. More here: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2378875

by Misfit74 on Jan 25, 2010 4:52 PM PST reply actions  

I like both ideas.

Maybe going back to a “safe” 17 or so, for a late third, and jettisoning Kerney for another. Two 1st’s, a 2nd, and two 3rd’s would be a nice cache of ammunition for a first year coach/ops guy.

Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.

by iverson2169 on Jan 25, 2010 6:34 PM PST up reply actions  

I Like it and appreciate your hardwork

I agree with you, and I think this could be a great way to build this year. We need a lot of positions filled, and this would be a great way to do it this year! But I do agree with a couple of the guys where you have to wait and see how the draft board goes, because it never goes the way any of these analysts think… with that said if our guy isn’t there at 14 by all means go with the “Value” and trade back, and get another pick…. 3rd rounders and late 2nd rounders are great picks to have because a lot of these guys get passed up, its all about which teams scout these late day 1 and day 2 players best! Very Articulate write up, and you got everyone to think a little before they made their post! props to you man, nice work

A Seattle Fan from Upsate NY living in the South.... Figure that one out!!!! Go Hawks!!!

by jrod121021 on Jan 25, 2010 7:13 PM PST reply actions  

You make a good point...

My conceptual piece means nothing without more information. Specifically, actual draft day information.

Thanks for reading.

Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.

by iverson2169 on Jan 25, 2010 7:33 PM PST up reply actions  

Interesting points

and San Francisco is in the same situation with our two first round picks. If I were GM I’d either trade up to grab a player of extreme value (one of your Tier 2 guys), or trade back to gain extra 2nd round picks which I feel are more valuable as far as bang for your dollar than the first round picks.

Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will get picked in the first round.

by smileyman on Jan 30, 2010 5:30 PM PST reply actions  

Alright, this might be a little crazy but it might actually work.

CJ Spiller falls to #14. A team that might be interested trading up to get the consensus #1 runningback? The Houston Texans. They have obviously given up on Slaton and are searching for that elite runningback that can finally help them get into the playoffs. This season they finished second to last in rushing DVOA.

So, we trade our 14th pick (1100 pts) to the Texans for their 20th pick (850 pts) 3rd rounder 81st (185 pts) and 4th rounder 115th (64 pts). 850+185+64=1099. With this trade, we can get a 3rd round pick, an extra 4th rounder, and perhaps still get Price with our 20th pick.

by aerozeppelin on Feb 3, 2010 2:07 PM PST reply actions  

Sold.

Spiller could really make them lethal. What do we get for our missing point? A carton of Luckies?

inside of a dog it's too dark to read.

by shams on Feb 3, 2010 7:37 PM PST up reply actions  

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