Future Seahawks at the Senior Bowl: Running Backs - Open Thread
John Clayton mentioned that Seattle might not target another third-down back because they already have Justin Forsett. Maybe Clayton is merely echoing an opinion voiced by a member of the Seahawks. I hope not. I hope this is Clayton's mistake and not an organizational mistake.
Seattle doesn't need a specific type of back to pair with Forsett. If it was comfortable running Forsett into the ground, I think he could contribute 400 touches in 2010. That would be foolish, of course, as it seems all backs suffer from heavy use and Forsett seems particularly prone to wearing down. He's a small power back that initiates contact. Force doesn't have speed to burn. Any speed hampering injury would severely reduce his value, and given his size and style, injury seems inevitable.
But, health be damned, Forsett could do it. He isn't a third down back. A third down back is part receiver,part blocker and part rusher. Forsett can block and receive. A third down back is not a complete rusher. Typically, they run draws, pitches, sweeps, etc. Runs towards the edges or outside the tackle box, and runs that surprise. A third down back doesn't fight through the pile; doesn't align I-formation and power through the hole. Forsett can.
The Seahawks do not need to complement Forsett. He does need to be completed. The Seahawks need to add another running back to team with Forsett and keep both rushers fresh and healthy. It needs to improve the overall depth and talent at running back. He doesn't have to be a three down back, thunder, lightning or any other specific classification. He just needs to be good. And preferably, cheap as possible.
Running Backs:
Joique Bell: I watched a few highlight videos of Bell just to get a feel for him. I have never seen him play on a snap-to-snap basis, but then few have. First I watched highlights from his freshman year. He looked gangly, slow and not terribly athletic. In more current videos, Bell pounds the rock through a sea of Division II arm tackles. He doesn't appear to have any kind of breakaway speed, and was constantly redirecting horizontally to try and create a favorable angle to the end zone. I don't see legitimate power either. In fact, Wayne looks every bit the Division II player he is. And at 23, 24 before the 2010 season, he doesn't have much room to develop. He was a grown man playing among modestly talented kids, and dominated through volume. Bell had 326 touches in 11 games.
LeGarrette Blount: Blount is performing very well. That doesn't surprise me. In fact, Blount should be performing well, because he's matched against largely inferior competition. If he wasn't fixing a damaged image, he wouldn't be here. He's a better prospect than that.
Blount's participation in the Senior Bowl is just good business. He needs to shake hands and prove he's not a violent miscreant. Blount will prove a lot more by running at the Combine. His game is all about size, speed and power. He's not shifty and he's not a receiver. He looks a little like Jamal Lewis to me. Lewis had speed. When he lost that speed, he ceased being an effective NFL rusher and retired.
Stafon Johnson: Johnson is the kid that dropped a 275 pound barbell on his neck. Remember that? Well he's back, in Pog form. Moving on from that little bit of trivia, Johnson could be a fantastic bargain. His injury was life threatening, but maybe not career threatening, and if he can recover enough to play, he should have all the tools intact that made him a very successful runner at USC. He's shifty, has smooth acceleration and perhaps the best vision in his class.
In 271 rushes over four seasons, Johnson lost only 39 yards. To put that into perspective, Jahvid Best lost 32 -- against the UCLA Bruins. In one game. Spiller had 59 as a senior. Blount had 25, in three games. Joe McKnight lost 40 yards in 164 rushes as a junior.
Johnson is the third down back Carroll shouldn't select. He doesn't have straight-line speed and his skills as a receiver are underdeveloped, but he's young, has good potential, is schooled in Alex Gibbs system, and might fall right out of the draft. If you're looking for a feel-good story with real potential, watch Johnson. He has pro potential and a solid shot of being a Seahawk.
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I would like to see if we can get Chester Taylor
As far as the Senior Bowl the only one I’m interested in is Blount. As you said he’s not a receiver (Forsett is though) but he has good speed and size.
June 2nd, 2009: Linked by Danny O'Neil. Date of awareness: Jan 26th, 2010.
We could get our own Chester Taylor in the draft.
75% of people account for 3/4 of the worlds population.
by Pessimistic Optimist on Jan 26, 2010 5:15 PM PST up reply actions
Also
That would be foolish, of course, as it seems all backs suffer from heavy use and Forsett seems particularly prone to wearing down. He’s a small power back that initiates contact. Force doesn’t have speed to burn.
This is why I want Spiller. Force is a younger, slower, Maurice Morris. He’ll never break a long touchdown run for as long as he’s in the NFL because he doesn’t have the speed to do it.
The current role Forsett is in should be kept.
June 2nd, 2009: Linked by Danny O'Neil. Date of awareness: Jan 26th, 2010.
What makes you say Forsett is prone to "wearing down"
Did you see this happen in games this year? He had 1 game with more than 20 carries (STL) and only 4 games with more than 10 carries. Seems like we didn’t have much of a sample.
Anything in particular you saw?
I think there is some evidence that backs of his size
Will wear down as the game goes on. Darren Sproles will never be a starting RB in this league because he’s prone to wearing down even getting 10 touches. The Chargers only use him in bursts and that’s it.
June 2nd, 2009: Linked by Danny O'Neil. Date of awareness: Jan 26th, 2010.
What about Joe Morris?
He was smaller than Forsett and didn’t seem to suffer from that. It’s just not obvious to me that 10 lbs and a few inches makes a guy have more endurance. Seems to me that once somebody said “small backs can’t be full-time runners in the NFL” and everyone else has just been repeating it since then as if it’s gospel.
He was a full-time back in college, I’d just play the guy until he proves he can’t take it. So far I’ve not seen the evidence.
I also don’t buy the argument that Forsett is somehow “slow” or lacking in speed. Maybe he had a bad day at the combine 2 years ago, but he looks plenty fast on the field.
Not everyone can be Warrick Dunn.
His initial burst is good but that’s it. Only a burst. The moment he gets into the open field he’ll get caught.
June 2nd, 2009: Linked by Danny O'Neil. Date of awareness: Jan 26th, 2010.
"Once he gets into the open field"
Just visualizing that, that’s 5 yards. Five yards on most running downs is solid. Forsett might not be able to score as often as the Westbrooks and Turners and Bushes of the league, but to me, Force’s game spells out ball control.
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
Forsett's carries were limited and he still would take himself out of the game from time to time
He was also injured which may or may not mean anything but is suspect considering he only got 114 carries.
As far as speed goes Forsett has no third gear to speak of. If that guy could turn in on in the open field even a little bit he’d have scored 5 or 6 extra touchdowns.
I think people fail to decipher fast and quick
Forsett isn’t slow like Khalil Bell but he can’t be relied upon for a 40 yard touchdown run. Morris had a similar problem but with a complete inability to break a tackle in the open field.
June 2nd, 2009: Linked by Danny O'Neil. Date of awareness: Jan 26th, 2010.
Informed from my original college scouting report.
Which is, for the most part, still how I see Forsett. He’s developed as a receiver, though.
He did the same this last season
Need to get pulled out after every big hit, or big run. STL game showed this explicitly.
That standard kept sliding
I was thinking 2006-2007.
by John Morgan on Jan 26, 2010 11:28 PM PST up reply actions
Wow, Bell was invited to the senior bowl?
He looks awful.
I’m a big fan of Stephon Johnson. I’m surprised that you think he might slip out of the draft completely. If he’s able to play at his pre-crushed larynx level this weekend is there any reason he would drop?
More about Bell from the Senior Bowl:
Both Joique Bell (RB, Wayne State) and Lonyae Miller (RB, Fresno State) showed fast initial bursts and an uncanny ability to turn their shoulders when running up the middle to get small. Bell runs like a freakin gazelle and really glides when he runs, getting some serious yards with every stride. If Bell can add 10 more pounds without losing speed, he could be a very nice sleeper for an NFL team and his fantasy owners. Lonyae is a hands catcher, and will be used as a receiver as he can get through trash.
He also had a reception for 67
And without mean-distorting runs of +35 yards, his yards per carry was still 5.3
by Anticitizen_One on Jan 26, 2010 6:05 PM PST up reply actions
Watch his highlight clip
here. He looks slow against division 2 competition, is stiff and shows no power to speak of. Theres no way he’s going to be able to out-sideline NFL players.
I'm not plugging the guy.
I’m just saying: is it really all that disturbing for a back as big as Bell to only have a long run of 35 yards?
I wouldn't mind Forsett being our 3rd string tailback.
For example, look at the Panthers. Mike Goodsen and Tyrell Sutton are their 3rd and 4th-string RBs and either might be as talented or productive as Forsett given the playing time. Leading the charge though, they of course have DeAngelo Williams and Jonathan Stewart. Two first-round RBs and they play like it.
There is no need to ‘build around’ or even ‘with’ Forsett. We need to add a very talented player at RB, possibly two. Draft one earlier and one later. This is a position we have to stop ‘just getting by’ with. I’m not in favor of a marginal upgrade, even if it is somewhat costly (in terms of picks) or expensive (in terms of salary).
I like Forsett. He’d be a great 3rd string RB and he suits that kind of depth the best, in my mind. He might get playing time and perform like a Jamaal Charles type for a season or two – tops. I don’t see that being a viable long-term solution. I’m tired of stop-gaps and band-aid fixes at RB. Get some damn talent.
And, just to extend on that
The Carolina Panthers had the 20th ranked offense. I don’t think of them as a team Seattle should emulate. The number one rushing offense? The Saints.
By another measure, that doesn't penalize boom and bust rushers as much
The Panthers had the third ranked rushing offense, but the 21st ranked overall offense. The far and away best rushing offense, the Titans, still only ranked 13th overall.
I didn't mean to suggest that we should emulate the Panthers offense.
The disparity of RB talent and depth on Carolia vs. Seattle is huge. My point is only we need to add quality RB talent. I’m not a fan of Carolina’s offense – it’s very unbalanced and limited. I do enjoy watching their team run the ball, specifically Williams and Stewart. I certainly favor a dynamic offense with a good passing attack (Saints).
If we are breaking in a young QB, the importance of running will increase, though It’s important regardless. I don’t see a backfield led by Forsett and another so-so back as ideal, though I think a quality RB would help any QB leading our team next season.
John, you made me feel like an asshole
For laughing at “door number crushed throat”. But I guess I am one, so it works out.
It's mostly worth noting who is impacting their stock.
I don’t take the evaluations from Senior Bowl practices all that seriously.
John, what exactly does "Pog form" mean? And are you saying Seattle should avoid
Stafon Johnson altogether or take the chance we can get him undrafted? While he doesn’t have to be a feature back do like him. Pete may want to continue his running back by committee modis from college, as long as that committee does not include Julius Jones.
It's a Simpsons quote
Millhouse: Remember Alf? He’s back. In Pog form.
Pog was a shameless attempt to create a collectible during a brief period when baseball cards, garbage pail cards, and other kid’s collectibles were popular. The novelty was that one could play pog with pogs, a boring game no one would want to play.
I like Johnson, and more importantly, I think he is the type of back Pete Carroll would target.
Hey I liked Pogs.
The again I was 8. But it was the coolest thing at school for that whole 6 months.
Also a die-hard Hawks fan.
by Hopefulmsfan on Jan 27, 2010 3:42 AM PST up reply actions
Straight line speed?
John, I’m curious how much game film youve watched on Johnson? Living in pac-10 country ABC graciously put SC on TV every saturday it seemed. I dont remember Johnson getting caught from behind much, if at all. And, I do remember a slew of long runs where i thought defenders had angles on him.
As a USC fan
I never felt that Johnson had great breakaway speed. He was my favorite of the Gable/McKnight/Johnson bunch for the reason John mentioned above, he rarely lost yards. It was always nice as a fan to see a guy rush ahead for a positive gain seemingly every carry, rather than a guy like McKnight who would dance for a loss so much.
All anecdotal though.
[DELETED ZOMG NO POLITICS]
A point about how we used our backs..
Last year, during the first seven games, back when the games still mattered, we handed to Edgerrin James 46 times (thats almost 7 times a game!) and he got 2.7 yards per carry (-30.2% DVOA). It’s not like he showed something in practice and just fluked on the field, dude wasn’t even at training camp!
During those games we handed to Forsett just 19 times…
Our idiot coaching staff severly hurt our running game by keeping Forsett on the bench in favor of what was essentially a street free-agent for seven games. One would think that 3-5 games of James never averaging more than 4.0 ypc in a single game (and never taking a carry more than 10 yards) would be enough. Whats more, during that stretch, Forsett had FOUR games of 5.7 YPC or better. I mean, as discussed above, Forsett has shortcomings, but any sighted individual could see that the kid could run.. so why the hell did we waste a roster spot, cap space, on James who was never help us present or future..
I really don’t think we need to pour big resources into a back like Spiller. You get a solid 2nd or 4th rounder to compete with Jones and Forsett for the 65/25/10 carry split. You don’t earmark any of the jobs, you don’t bring in Edge in late August and give him 7 weeks to prove he sucks. The retolled Gibbs line opens some holes and either Forsett or our yet unnamed 2nd or 4th rounder is suddenly the talk of the town. Jones is also suddenly looking pretty effective now that he is fighting for carries and defensive lineman are tired of chasing down Forsett or our yet unnamed 2nd or 4th rounder.
Why in the hell would you let Morris and Weaver, two vastly superior backs to Edge, walk, knowing you were gonna sign the street free agent no one wanted in late August???
I was never a big hater of Ruskell and our major roster moves (Wahle, Branch, Curry, JP, Redding, etc., etc.) but I thought our roster management of guys like Edge, Russel, Bennet, Walker, Coutu was terrible and I peg that on the coaching staff to a large extent.
A tidbit on another RB faster than Forsett from Senior Bowl practice:
Dexter McCluster (WR, Mississippi State) beat Arenas deep twice and flashed some very nice hands and routes. His route running looks very solid this week and he has some incredible value as either a wideout or a half back; dude runs a 4.4. I think he’ll be huge in the NFL…keep an eye on him for your drafts. -DLF SteveA
I like him because he can play 3 positions, and I kind of feel we need help in all three.
I like our current WR (as of now without cuts), but wouldn’t mind a lightning bug, wouldn’t mind a Sproles type RB, or a Hester-type returner.
Sounds like what we have in Butler
An undersized receiver with speed hands and route running.
The future is looking better

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