Paul Allen May Save the Seattle Seahawks from Paul Allen
by John Morgan on Jan 8, 2010 9:47 PM PST
Email
PrintSports Illustrated's Jim Trotter offers a beacon of hope in this otherwise benighted day.
If Pete Carroll takes the Seattle Seahawks head coaching job, he will not have the final say on all football matters that he is seeking, according to one person who has spoken with team CEO Tod Leiweke.
John Wooten, chairman of the Fritz Pollard Alliance, which promotes diversity and equality in coaching, said Friday night that Leiweke informed him that Seahawks owner Paul Allen is against entrusting total control to one person.
Consider the obvious implications:
- Paul Allen learned from his former mistake. That in of itself is meaningful.
- Pete Carroll will not be entrusted with total control of this franchise and is therefore simply a head coach. I think we can all stomach Carroll the head coach. I just couldn't stomach Carroll, Grand Poobah.
- The big one: This queers the deal. If Carroll can not have total control, and if his position within the organization is being abated before he can even sign, it's entirely possible Carroll might pull out and put Seattle back at square one.
Square one is good. It's full of possibility and hope and sugar drops and I think there's a really comfortable couch there.
207 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
I was going to share it too, John.
Give me some credit because I’m awesome. ; )
A Mariners fan in Seattle
Okay God, I don't like you, and you don't like me
But if you make this be true and the deal falls through, I will erect a shrine to you comprised primarily of the scrotum of Richard Dawkins.
by OlSalty on Jan 8, 2010 10:05 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Frazier would just be the Head Coach and not GM/President/Warlord.
Which probably makes him better. He’s a defensive guy, so the OC would likely have total control of the offense. Honestly is duties would probably be similar to Mora, probably a Tampa 2 guy.
I’d say similar to Mora without the calling out of the players. Hard to judge him based on the Vikings defense which has the Williams Wall and Jared Allen.
Heh, the more I think about it the more I don't like Frazier.
But if it saved us from Pete Carroll running the whole organization I’d be for it.
Why not interview Dick LeBeau then?
Pittsburgh’s defense has been good every year since he’s been there. He’s old, but he’s obviously good with defenses.
A Mariners fan in Seattle
He'll never leave Pittsburgh, and if he did
Seattle would probably be right there with Baltimore on places that he’d definitely not go.
It's Great to be a Florida Gator!
"I never met a llama I didn't like." - TJ Duckett
All I want for Christmas is Joe Haden, Eric Berry, and Nandamukong Suh in Seahawks blue.
by Wayward Llama on Jan 9, 2010 4:01 PM PST up reply actions
Question for John
Hi John, long time fan, first time caller.
I was wondering: When do you think this whole Pete Carroll idea was initially hatched? What do you think the timing on all this was? Post-Ruskell, pre-Mora? Before the “offer” to Holmgren or after?
Just wondering your estimation on this whole thing.
--Shrug
Field Gulls - The SBN Seattle Seahawks Blog
Long time no see!
Still planning on never returning to author duties here? ; )
A Mariners fan in Seattle
Not officially.
Been busy with a whole lot of other stuff. Haven’t done any writing anywhere for awhile, though that will hopefully change in ’10.
--Shrug
Field Gulls - The SBN Seattle Seahawks Blog
I don't understand all the sky is falling stuff.
It seemed that there was always more evidence that we were looking for a GM as well, and that the Carroll-also-as-GM stuff was just speculation. He also hasn’t been a TERRIBLE NFL coach in the past…maybe not good, but definitely not appallingly awful. Plus, it’s possible he’s learned a few things from his USC experience. He has a good eye for talent, especially with QBs it seems—Palmer, Leinart, Sanchez, Barkley—so I don’t see why what is seen as “recruiting” talent couldn’t be utilized well in helping the new GM with the draft. If he can spot talent, he can spot talent.
I’m lukewarm on the hiring, but I see no reason to be any more upset than that. We don’t know what Carroll’s gonna do. Wait and see, give the guy a chance. He could suck, but we could also be pleasantly surprised. But the sky isn’t falling, it’s not all doom and gloom. Shit.
I'd be fine if we hired him-but not at the contract we've offered him.
If he doesn’t do well, I don’t want the team to be on the hook for five seasons.
A Mariners fan in Seattle
Businesses still don't like to piss away money for nothing
5 years/35 million suggests a serious belief in his ability to succeed and will make it harder for them to pull the trigger in regards to getting rid of him if he sucks.
Though I guess looking at the Seahawks recently, maybe they *do* like to piss away money for nothing
The downside of taking risks is sometimes pissing away money.
Whether decision is smart or not, that’s basically what it boils down to. A business risk.
Who knows if Allen would be willing to fire him if he still was in the middle of the contract?
Not something I want to find out.
A Mariners fan in Seattle
I imagine he would
He threw out $12 million to fire Mora and hardly batted an eye. If he fired Carroll after year 3, it would cost him $14 million. Allen’s made plenty of bad business choices in the past and because his wealth is so immense it probably doesn’t even bother him. Normally having a rich owner doesn’t mean a whole lot, but in this case its a very nice perk.
I agree.
A lot of the comments today have been pure over-reactionary apocalyptic bullshit. There were no credible reports of total control. Pete Carroll is an uber-successful college coach who I think was a .500 coach at New England a decade ago. Maybe he’s no better than he was then, or maybe he learned a thing or two in the decade since.
Take a breath, Seahawks fans. Mora may not have had much to work with, but he also wasn’t doing much with what he did have. And when things went south, he lost his composure, publicly blamed players seemingly at random, and thought the ultimate problem might be a lack of dirtbags.
He’s been fired, and there’s a new coach incoming. One with some pro experience, a great college record. Full of energy and enthusiasm. Let some of that rub off on you. If they’re terrible next year, then be pissy next year. But in the meantime, quit pretending we just signed Corky to the front office. Give the guy a chance.
People aren't upset that Mora was fired
They’re upset that Carroll is potentially being given total control of the personnel in a rebuild year.
We don’t really have any choice but to give him a chance if it does happen, being Seahawks fans and all. That doesn’t mean it’s a good hiring or that we can’t reserve the right to be disgusted by the bad philosophy responsible for it.
The total control thing appears to be just a bad rumor.
You certainly have a right to be disgusted with the possibility, but maybe getting disgusted before anything is known is a little silly. If it turns out to be true, I’ll be disgusted too. My point is that people were getting all worked up with no concrete information.
I think some people fell in love with the idea of this guy or that guy as head coach. That’s cool. And they heard it’s gonna be Carroll and they don’t much like the idea. That’s cool, too. But the “oh my god, kill me know” and “God, my favorite team is ruined” crap is nothing but a hissy fit. Let’s not be drama queens.
Carroll has been offered the head coach and team president position
Thus, near total control. I don’t know if you don’t know this or just refuse to accept it, but it’s supported by the Los Angeles Times, Wall Street Journal, ESPN, and, well everyone.
Guess I'm just psychic.
Actually, there were conflicting reports out at the time of my post, including a report linked from this site or Sando (can’t remember which) that said the Seahawks were not offering total control. I didn’t make up that “bad rumor” business, I read it. Point being, the LA Times, Wall Street Journal, and ESPN were all peddling the same rumor mill, unsubstantiated stuff and my opinion was that the sky-is-falling reactions were over the top. It all looks a bit silly now, doesn’t it?
It just doesn't make sense to hire a coach before you hire a GM
And Carroll has turned down numerous offers before because they didn’t give him control over personnel. There are a lot of reasons to think this.
Like the fact that he's been offered the head coach and president job
and that would given near total control.
I guess if we're assuming all of those reports were erroneous
These are the other reasons to think they are not.
If you want to disagree with a specific point, go ahead.
But this:
But the sky isn’t falling, it’s not all doom and gloom. Shit.
Adds nothing.
It’s an empty generalization of an opinion. What specifically are you arguing? I agree. The sky is not falling. Signing Pete Carroll to President and Head Coach is a potentially franchise crippling mistake. This isn’t Colin Cole. This isn’t Matt Hasselbeck. This the man. This is the franchise.
I find it really insulting to my intelligence to suggest that I think the signing of the person in ultimate control of almost every decision to come for this team for years should not be a big deal.
It’s a fucking huge deal, it’s the hugest deal possible if you are a Seahawks fan.
I'm still mystified
According to the deafening silence coming from the VMAC this evening, we still have no GM. Wouldn’t it be a good thing to have a GM in place before we hire a coach? Just throwing that one out there.
My only rationale for that
is that the Seahawks are attempting a blockbuster move that would preclude the necessity of hiring a GM first. That’s why I’m wondering what the timing of the Seahawks’ private interest in Carroll was.
--Shrug
Field Gulls - The SBN Seattle Seahawks Blog
So hypothetically
What kind of blockbuster scenario would force this hand?
Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
I mean *this*.
Theoretically, if they’re going to do something crazy like hire the most successful college football coach of the ‘00s, if they knew they had the chance to get him, they might have decided to strike while the poker was hot and forego hiring a GM first. If they decided to give Carroll GM- or president-like duties as well, then of course they’d have no reason to hire a GM first.
But under any other scenario, I agree with Blue. I would think if we were seriously pursuing someone like Frazier, we’d have a management structure in place. But that could be my naivete.
--Shrug
Field Gulls - The SBN Seattle Seahawks Blog
I see
I was secretly hoping you were going to go down the path that leads to…. Carroll’s influence, in some way, lands a blockbuster trade or something.
Guess I am grasping for anything at this point.
Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
Actually, I kind of have a theory on that too.
But it’s unformed and kinda stupid. It involves Carroll’s willingness to stick with Hasselbeck, and the prospects in the 2011 draft. Not the 2010.
It’s a pretty stupid theory actually but that’s why I am not a sportswriter anymore.
--Shrug
Field Gulls - The SBN Seattle Seahawks Blog
Since it would be speculation about CARROLLS intentions...
and not your own, I don’t see why it would be stupid. If Carroll has turned down several offers over the last decade and only now decided to make the jump again, there very could well be an “ace up his sleeve” as well.
You never know.
Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
More like the team's long-term intentions,
and that Carroll might go along with it, given their trust with him during Rebuilding Year #1. It seems a curiously convenient situation for just about everybody involved. It feels like one of those situations where someone’s got an ace up his sleeve, just because this whole chain of events was so suddenly loud, that I tend to think there’s got to be some more concealed strategy at work.
And yeah, this is just my stupid brilliant clairvoyance making the contribution here, but yeah, we briefly fantasized it could have something to do with somebody who might look something a little bit like Locker.
--Shrug
Field Gulls - The SBN Seattle Seahawks Blog
If Locker were to somehow decide to "un-return"..
to the UW this year, I will actually send you 50.00 by way of Western Union as a prize for your great investigative work.
Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
Investigative?
I’m just makin’ this stuff up, man. But $50 is $50.
--Shrug
Field Gulls - The SBN Seattle Seahawks Blog
Well no you see...
If Locker now comes out it will have been because of your work on this sub-thread.
Jokes of course but like you said….. $50 is $50 yes?
Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
No way this doesn't happen now
Carroll needs a parachute out of USC. He’ll accept just less than “total” control by sharing the top spot on the Football Operations org chart with the new GM.
Depends how serious Allen is about this
I don’t think he’s stupid, he knows that that kind of arrangement would mean a token GM. Or would create serious conflicts within the organization.
Help me Paul Allen
Your our only hope.
by DJ C-Raig on Jan 8, 2010 11:32 PM PST via mobile reply actions
I'm thinking this all just some elaborate media ploy
They can’t hire Carroll until they satisfy the Rooney Rule, they can’t do that until they interview a minority coach, they can’t get a minority coach to interview if they already have a coach, so Fritz Pollard Alliance concocts this little story, they do the minority interview all ‘legit’ like, then hire Pete Carroll.
Also, lizard people.
You know one thing this allows you to do John?
You can begin to formulate a far more realistic look at what the Seahawks potential draft strategies might entail.
A couple thing come to mind for me:
1. He likes QB’s with pedigree
2. He likes “homerun” backs.
3. Defensively, the schemes should start with QB pressure and secondaries that intimidate.
A few draft thoughts:
1. I think it is a foregone conclusion that if Taylor Mays is sitting at 14… he wears Seahawk Blue next year.
2. Charles brown OL, and Joe Mcknight RB automatically hit the Seahawks radar as well as Everson Griffen DE.
Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
If thats who we get, and where they project, its not that bad
Charles Brown in the second and McKnight in the fourth. Haden and Lupati in the first and I’m a happy man.
It's Iupati. With a captalized "i".
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
by Carl Shinyama on Jan 9, 2010 8:58 AM PST up reply actions
How big are you...?
You mentioned you were going to “go at it” 6 hours ago. That took quite some time to find Oblivion.
Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
Oblivion is a funny thing.
Some nights it takes only a few drinks, some nights it takes 6 hours. But if you are dedicated, you will find it.
Now with more lemon bars!
not a single grammatical or punctuation error or typo
this word “oblivion”, I do not think it means what you think it means.
what you do now, round eye?
Honestly though how can Carroll go back to USC after this news has gotten out?
If the deal is queered he is likely compromised in his current position.
Apparently things aren't good between him
And the AD an with the University president set to retire and the possibility of massive NCAA sanctions now might be as good of time as any to go.
[DELETED ZOMG NO POLITICS]
by bluemax on Jan 9, 2010 12:49 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
I hear Florida might be hiring...
by DJ C-Raig on Jan 9, 2010 1:00 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Urban Myer is still head coach.
He’s only taking an indefinite leave of absence, most likely for a year. Of course, lots can change in a year.
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
by Carl Shinyama on Jan 9, 2010 9:02 AM PST up reply actions
Still in the loop
I believe it is said that he is not actively coaching but he is still involved in team decisions. He also inforormed one recruit he would be back on the sidelines before this fall season.
PLEASE NO HC/GM
I dont even think it would get to a forgiveness stage...
I think he’d give the customary “It was rumor” speech.
Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
No way.
things went too far for the “it was rumor” speech, given now, to have a chance of passing the laugh test. You can deny that you got a girl’s number at a bar, but when all the majors are reporting that you went back to her basement room, gotten into bed, and are at most a garment or two away from rounding third base with her?
what you do now, round eye?
If I had to make odds, I'd say theres a 90% chance or better that this decision by Allen is a deal-breaker for Carroll
It might not be there anymore, but on ESPN.com Mort had a video interview in which he answered questions about Carroll. One of the things Mort said that really stuck out was when he asked Carroll what lessons he learned from his two previous NFL stints, and Carroll said (paraphrasing obviously): “I learned that I’m a much better coach when I’m in total control of the franchise.”
This isn’t the first time Carroll has been courted by NFL teams post-USC. The sticking point has always been that Carroll doesn’t want to return to the NFL unless he is given full control of the franchise.
So if Allen is ripping the “full control” rug underneath the legs of these negotiations, that figures to be a deal-breaker, unless Carroll is suddenly desperate to coach in the NFL or wants or get out of USC.
However it turns out, this is a good decision by Allen. I think Carroll would be a good hiring as a coach only, but a bad one as a coach/GM. And if Carroll isn’t interested in being a coach only, then that’s ok. The GM is the crucial piece of this offseason. I don’t know if you could put a value on it, but I’d guess a good GM is 5 times more valuable than a good coach. You don’t sacrifice a good GM to get a good coach. Period.
I think the official title would be coach/team president.
He’d hire a GM to do the day-to-day operations. At least, that’s what the Seattle P-I wrote this morning.
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
by Carl Shinyama on Jan 9, 2010 9:04 AM PST up reply actions
Its the same thing
I’m pretty sure that’s exactly the deal Shanahan has in Washington. He’s technically not the GM, but the GM basically does whatever Shanahan tells him to do.
Mort also confirmed
that Carroll’s interest and Mora’s firing were related events. So if this whole thing falls apart, at least it got Mora fired!
ESPN reporting that the deal is done...
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4810861
Interesting that it ONLY specifies head coach. It does NOT say team president. Also it is updated as of 7:54 EDT Jan. 9th. So it looks like it’s the latest.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
This should make John happy:
Meanwhile, the Seahawks’ search for a new general manager is also under way.
Giants director of college scouting Marc Ross will interview for the vacant position Wednesday, according to John Wooten, the chairman of the committee that oversees Rooney Rule compliance.
That’s what I read in the link that you provided.
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
by Carl Shinyama on Jan 9, 2010 9:20 AM PST up reply actions
Steve Kelley is way against this
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/stevekelley/2010746171_kelley09.html
It kinda makes me for it.
I understand the caution, but why is the sky falling
It totally depends on the level of power and control, but it might not be that bad. He was average as a pro coach and one of the best college coaches ever. As long as he isn’t the end of the line only guy in control, I can’t see how it is that much worse than a lot of the assistants out there.
becuase the initial reports were as president
which as you said he would be the last guy in line. If that happens I think you will see FG completely implode.
by Hancock.Brett on Jan 9, 2010 8:43 AM PST up reply actions
Saying president can mean a lot of things
You have to admit when he had complete control he was much more successful when he was just the coach. True, it was in college, but thats what we have to look at.
PC as an NFL coach only = average coach at best
PC as a Coach with full control of the program and personnel = one of the best college coaches ever
I’m not a fan of one guy in an NFL organization having that much power, based on the track record of other guys, but he has shown at other levels that he can do it.
Different, but not completely
It takes the ability to evaluate talent, recruit people and build a system that is successfull with the talent that you have.
Obviously the NFL is different, but its not like we hired Lou Pinella to do this.
The process of building an NFL roster is completely different
The limitations are stricter and the resources are scarce.
Yes the restrictions on numbers and salary cap are different
But that is the main difference. Same concept with different parameters and restrictions.
No, it just isn't. At USC, Carroll established his school as a premier place for top prospects.
He was able to assemble a roster with the best of everything, an absurd advantage over most of the rest of college football.
Very true
But there are many cities/teams that do the same thing. If you establish a successful program where the players want to be there it is easier to get FA. Look at NE vs Oak.
Absolutely
But PC has proven that he can make football players want to play. That was something Mora clearly couldn’t do.
He has proven that he can motivate 18-22 year olds.
NFL players are a different breed.
With a program like USC it isn't that much different
They are a draft machine. Their top players are paid and taken care of. Not at a pro level, but he would have many of the same pre-madonna issues as in the NFL
As a fan of Seattle sports I have to attempt and find the positive of the situation
Life otherwise would be unberable
My point is that the level of negativity is spiraling
There is some utility with looking at the positive posibities
The average Seahawk is only 27
22 year olds and 27 year olds aren’t that many worlds apart. Money is the bigger difference, not the age.
That's silly
Mora’s team didn’t suck for want of trying. They sucked because most of them are not very talented.
A team that shuts out a Jags squad that remained in playoff contention until the final week
should not be talentless enough to be dominated by a one-win Bucs squad, all other things being equal.
Not definitively, no.
But if Team 1 beats Team 2 badly, then Team 2 beats Team 3 badly, Team 3 probably won’t be favored against Team 1.
You can't sign every good free agent available. There is a salary cap.
The draft is extremely important, and NFL roster construction is unlike college roster construction. You can’t throw three guys at each position and wait for one to shake out.
Its not the same but there are many skills sets involved that will transfer
Its enough to remain cautiously optimistic. Maybe he learned something in the last decade? Maybe a little more control is what he needs to be successfull in the pros.
Either way Carroll has proven the ability to identify talent and go after it
Which is what the presidents job entails. I believe Carroll just wants that control to get the players he wants. He doesn’t want to figure out contracts and cap numbers, that’s the GM will be for, but he does want the final say on who comes to this team. I’m guessing he wasn’t happy with the way the Patriots President and GM ran things when he was there.
To say the USC just throws a bunch of guys together and see who comes out on top is a pretty big oversimplification.
You still have to identify talent, go get it, and then make it work.
In the offseason they’re be 80 players. You can also try out as many players as you want. I think the hope is that Carroll will find more diamonds in the haystack
That's incredible simplistic
If that was true than all you have to do to draft is look at Mel’s big board
by stufr on Jan 9, 2010 9:39 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, it's an oversimplification
The difference between Kiper’s big board and Rivals is that teams get a finite amount of opportunities to select those top players in the NFL. USC can essentially start at the top of the rivals list and get as many of those big recruits as they want.
I'm sure most college programs are aware of the advantage of recruiting
There are bigger programs the USC. That alone isn’t why USC was so successful in the oughts.
Trojans didn’t have a single 10-win season between 1989 and 2001. What’s changed? Did they do no recruiting at all before then? You’re seriously saying all it comes down to is Pete Carroll knowing recruiting ranks? All big programs know this. All big programs have a better shot at the best players. That’s a given.
Also, I don’t quite get what that articles trying to say. Big programs get the best players? That’s not exactly new knowledge.
What I'm saying is
that it’s Pete Carroll’s ability to land top recruits, something that won’t transfer to the pro’s, that makes him great. Not his ability to identify top recruits.
That's definitally a concern
But I think the same thing that wins in college is the same thing that wins in the NFL: Talent. The only question now is, can Pete Carroll identify and bring talent to the Seahawks? How different is scouting talent in high school vs college? Or free agency? I don’t see why Carroll would all the sudden fail at it because players are older. But again, I agree with your doubts, we simply don’t know how well he’ll do. Having a good GM who knows the current state of the NFL well would help out a lot in that area.
by B.B.Finnegan on Jan 9, 2010 12:02 PM PST up reply actions
You don't recruit people in the NFL, you draft them (or sign/trade for them)
You have to be able to evaluate talent, absolutely. But that’s where the comparison ends. There is so much more an NFL GM must know how to do in order to succeed.
It's also a lot easier to evaluate high school talent
The disparity between Eastern Washington targets and USC targets is huge. To a certain point you can just eyeball which players are the prize recruits. And he also won’t be able to stock pile talent and start the ones that shake out.
I disagree
High school talent is a lot more about tools and skills and not can they play the game. it also shows he can develop talent, not something all NFL guys can do.
Think about what you wrote
High school talent is a lot more about tools and skills and not can they play the game
Yes. Draft the 6’5" defensive end with amazing speed and man size. Not exactly hard.
Raw skills don't always translate into good players
If so the Raiders approach at numbers only scouting would work.
These are 18 year old kids
The ones that attend USC are NFL prospects. The ones that attend most teams are nowhere close.
I'm not claiming that they are the same
I believe that there are transferable skill sets from college coaching and pro coaching. Player evaluation is one of them.
Evaluating college talent and pro talent is not the same
nor is the process of building a college roster and a pro roster.
You are correct
But there are some similarities. It is not a completely foreign science. Therefore, showing ability in one of them would tend to indicate that he can learn to do it at the next level.
Managing Scholorships is very similar
So is Talent Evaluation
Matching talent with a system
Recruiting players or free agents
Its at a different level, with different constraints, so it is different. But there are similar skills that will transfer. The basis is there for sucess.
You are setting such an unbelievably low standard that it sounds correct, but it's not.
Evaluating high school talent is not the same as evaluating college and pro talent.
Matching system is easy when a player is incomplete are there are dozens competing for every position.
Recruiting a kid to an NFL factory is nothing like signing a free agent.
I can see how you view my standpoint as conflating
But I think your stance is incredibly hard line and not seeing the similarities that do exist.
The point that we've all been making
is that the similarities that exist as exceedingly general. Along the same lines as “cooking at home is the same as opening a restaurant.” Lots of parts are generally the same. That doesn’t make it correct.
Your examples are kinda overdone
We didn’t hire a high school coach. We hired the best coach/GM in college football.
If you say a chef moving from TGI Friday’s to the Icon Grill then you are close. But in this case its someone who has already the sioux chef at Anthony’s and was just OK.
High school to college
Is a much easier leap than college to NFL.
Matt Hasselbeck's satellite TV signals would get intercepted.
I don't disagree
But we aren’t talking about a lacrosse coach moving to the NFL. It is different and PC will have to adapt, but college will be a good base to start with. Saying No that they are nothing alike is ridiculous
FWIW, I see your point.
My kitchen management/inventory experience is transferable to managing an IT inventory (I have Culinary Arts and IT degrees). Degree or not the inventory experience is a transferable skill.
You absolutely recruit them
Why do you think bringing in free agents is so much different from recruiting. Getting players to buy into your system and what you are doing.
Because it is different
Getting players to buy into a system isn’t typically a big reason why they go to one team or another. On rare occasions it may play a slight role in a players decision but it’s mostly just about money they stand to make.
And teams are primarily built through the draft anyway, where you don’t have an endless stream of recruits to throw against a wall and see who sticks. You have a limited number of picks. Carroll has never had to deal with anything like that before either at USC or in his previous NFL coaching experience and therefore there is little reason to think he will succeed at something he’s never done.
No he hasn't done the exact same thing successfully
But he knows how to evaluate college level talent. USC doesn’t stick by their big names, they throw out whoever is playing best. If he can evaluate college talent well, then he should be able to draft well. It isn’t a sure thing, but there is a chance he will do very well at it.
Not a very good chance, and that's the problem
As a general principle, people who have never done something before usually don’t come in and instantly know how to do it as good/better than people who have been doing it their whole career. Carroll has never built through a draft before. He’s never even helped construct an NFL roster before in a meaningful way. His only NFL experience is as a coach.
Maybe he comes in and instantly knows how to do everything a GM has to do, but there’s little reason to think that he’d excel at something he has no experience with.
Now if he’s just our coach….that’s a different story.
I think that's a valid criticism of Carroll at this point
It doesn’t mean he won’t be good at it either, just that he’s never done it. It’s a complete unknown as it was with Holmgren and Andy Reid. Then we found out, but it’s the only way to know for sure.
How can you quantify it out to "Not a very good chance"
Its not quanitiable in that way. I agree, its a completely valid concern, but thats the problem. Everyone is turning valid concerns into, “not a very good chance”. Its just a leap towards negativity that I don’t get.
There is a large amount of historical evidence that people who have never done a job before don't typically come into a job and start doing it as good as people who have done it for years
Tons of it. That’s why it’s not a very good chance. Inexperience is more often than not a bad thing that leads to bad results.
Agreed
Thats why I think its a concern. The reason that it isn’t a deal breaking concern for me is that he used similar skill sets, not the same, but similar, to great success. So he isn’t starting from zero. If he can transfer those skills then the potential exists for success.
Jimmy Johnson
Johnson built a Miami team that was like PC’s USC then came into the NFL and did the same thing with Dallas. Why sould we think that PC could not do the samething. JJ went 1 and 15 in his first season but then won 2 Super Bowls and then his team carry Switzer to another one. That is what we have to hope happens for us.
PLEASE NO HC/GM
Pod cast
As JM said in his pod cast we have enough unneeded veteran talent that we could trade for draft picks to start a good base for our future.
PLEASE NO HC/GM
I don't think that's what John said
He said there are a lot of players we should trade for whatever we can get for them, because whatever you get it will help the team more in the future than having those players on the roster now for a bad, old team. Which is true.
However it’s unlikely that any of those players are good enough to net us a 1st rounder. Let alone a return like this
It's funny that you picked that fact and then quoted only a little part of John's podcast.
He also said that Johnson was able to do what he did because there was no salary cap and Jerry Jones could just outspend people.
We won't be able to build or rebound the same way that the JJ did
But it still is a successful college coach becoming a successful pro coach
Ignore the circumstances in favor of the result.
Ignore Steve Spurrier, Bobby Petrino, Lane Kiffin (I hesitate to throw him in because his situation was bizarre), Nick Saban, Rich Brooks, Dennis Erickson, and Butch Davis.
To achnowledge a success does not deny the failures
I’m still not sure, but it isn’t 100% failure.
The Spurrier and the Erickson situations weren’t great either.
End of cap
With the end of the bargaining agreement next year doesn’t that also mean we will be uncapped in 2011? Wehave the richest owner in the NFL and he is showing us that he is willing to pay the money to get a winner so wouldn’t that encourage free agents to want to sign with us?
Miami
Erickson and Davis never really built a college team. They road JJ’s miami team he built. Erickson also dug Oregon State a hole after Mike Riley built them back into contention. Rich Brooks was an offensive guru who’s schemes didn’t work in the NFL.
A winner
I believe he also had a good Idaho team but were these National title contenders for year after year, or did they win the Pac 10? He got his only national title win in MIami on a team that JJ built then went on to have a bad run in rebuilding the Hawks
Uncapped season
In a word, no. Seattle has a LONG way to go to become a top tier team in the NFC … and overpaying for talent has never been a recipe for success in any sport.
Exception to the rule
Jimmy Johnson and to a lesser extent Tom Coughlin are the ONLY, ONLY success stories of college coaches moving to the NFL. There are about 20 failures I can think of off the top of my head.
You can hope & pray that Carroll turns out like JJ, that does not mean it was a good hire or the process that led to it was good.
Just for Frazier
Could it be that they have not declared total control is because Frazier would not interview if he he new that Carroll already had the job. If there is doubt about total contol he might think he still has a chance to become headcoach.
PLEASE NO HC/GM
They have supposedly have agreed in principle
They might actually be still negotiating the exact control levels.
NFL website says
Carroll will be Director of Football Operations too
I just think that there is reason to be cautiously optimistic
No its not a sure thing, or what many wanted, but it could work.
He has a host of skills, that at the college level, were some of the best ever.
Many of those skills, at least partially, are transferable to the coach/pres job in the NFL.
He might fail miserably, but there is a decent arguement for his success.
There is a pretty good recent history of guys with big success at the college level
finding themselves completely out of their depth in the NFL.
Agreed
Thats why it is caution optimism.
There is also a large track record of the Coach/Pres thing not working
I guess if you lower your expectations to ridiculous levels there's reason to be optimistic
We shouldn’t be expected to do that though, this city and these fans have given way too much to deserve that.
Carroll starting out in the NFL and having NFL head coaching experience alleviates those concerns for me
I don’t think Carroll will be out of his depths. Now will be a good coach and lead this team somewhere? I don’t know.
by B.B.Finnegan on Jan 9, 2010 10:02 AM PST up reply actions
Thats about how I think
I’d rather have Carroll than some retread ex-NFL coach thats been fired a couple times.
(that was a joke)
I’m optimistic because I see success where Carroll was, and do not see total suck in his previous NFL stops. This might be a disaster or it might pay off huge, but I really did not want to keep Mora, so I’m still kinda blind from joy.
Am I correct in assuming that this was strictly a Paul Allen decision to court Carroll?
It sounds like Liewicky (sp.) wanted to give Mora another year. Since it seems inevitable that Carroll is going to be aboard in some capacity I will start mentally preparing myself to get behind this idea. Whether I want him to be or not he will be a Seahawk and dammit, let’s do this
by Big E-Z on Jan 9, 2010 10:11 AM PST via mobile reply actions
Another key point from Carl's link (above):
Giants director of college scouting Marc Ross will interview for the vacant position Wednesday, according to John Wooten, the chairman of the committee that oversees Rooney Rule compliance. The panel, called the Fritz Pollard Alliance, agreed to allow the interview only after being given assurances Carroll would not have full control of Seattle’s organization, but rather only control over the 53-man roster.
Here is a good read
http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/article/2010-01-09/what-pete-carroll-must-do-succeed-nfl
It includes some player thoughts.
What I liked from that link
“If it is Pete Carroll, I talked to (Bengals quarterback) Carson (Palmer) for about an hour,” Houshmandzadeh told Todd Wright on Sporting News Radio. “He had nothing but good things to say. I’ll be excited about it.”
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
by Carl Shinyama on Jan 9, 2010 11:44 AM PST up reply actions
7 million just to coach? He's also President? But not GM?
This is a mess, non-football guys making football decisions.
by Badmotostinkfinger on Jan 9, 2010 11:22 AM PST reply actions
What if Pete Carroll is just a ploy to gain a bigger market?
I remember someone telling me years ago that Ichiro’s huge contract and the Mariners lack of wins made sense. Because Ichiro is such a cash cow, the franchise more than makes up the money from ticket and merchandise sales… regardless of how bad the team is.
Is it possible that Vulcan Inc. is pulling this move to appeal to the LA market? The 2nd biggest city in the nation but one without an NFL franchise?
erutangis
Tatonka?!? TAKONKAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!
While I think you are correct that it will lure in the LA market
I don’t think Allen needs to make such considerations.
I'm just hoping that there aren't "other" alterior motives....
Not claiming there is any connection whatsoever, but I no sooner saw that AP piece come out (about LA wanting another NFL team), than I saw the Carroll news break. Reading jubelthebears comment gave me chills.
Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
I realize that...
The part that gave me chills was the mention of Vulcan Inc. Big Corporations don’t have emotions.
Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
I have been looking for a silver lining...
in this move, and had this thought came to mind:
The one thing we ALL agree on over the past year under JM (Jim Mora not John Morgan), is that the team lacked any semblance of an identity. It was almost looked as if they were a “paint by numbers” roster. They used the words West Coast Defense (Double Fudge Rocky Road) to attempt to create one, but it just came out looking vanilla. As I am not a professional coach, I don’t personally know how to go about creating an NFL team with an identity, so I don’t want to go overboard with a criticism of JM.
Instead, I want to offer that in PC’s decade long tenure at USC, he apparently has learned how to build dynamic teams with distinct identities. I apologize for not being able to qualify my comments fully, as “identity” may be a shifty term to nail down. I do however see a difference between USC’s program, and other juggernaut recruiting powerhouses over the last decade in terms of having a Hallmark “look” to them. The pessimistic side of me says it’s simply a result of having All-American high-schoolers in every spot; however, the optimist in me recognizes that while that may be true, the dynamics of the team never really changed that much. PC never had to do alot of scheme alteration from year to year to accommodate different types of players.
This is where the Seahawks fan in me is hoping that PC has discovered how to identify “his type” of players and knows how to combine their traits into a winning system.
Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
