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Quarterbacks and the West Coast Offense

The last month has been difficult. Every thread is seemingly about Quarterbacks and here I am contributing to the gluttony of QB talk that has swept field gulls and most of hawk nation. Let's face it, if there isn't a change on offense this year at the QB position it is almost assured that the Hawks will make that change next year. So? What can we hope for?

I had a strange memory flash of a Bill Walsh interview with Dan Patrick, I think back in 2005. Bill discussed the building of what would become the West Coast Offense when he was then a coach for the Bengals.  "Knowing we couldn't run the ball very well, we wanted to design a passing game to function like a running game. It was very structured down to the tape on the receivers wrists. We looked at it all." Bill talked about the offense in terms it's structure but also said this about those that piloted the offense. "You need someone that can physically repeat the same actions over and over and over because the system is developed on timing the throws so that they arrive to the receivers just like a handoff, an inch or two in front of their numbers."

Later in the interview when asked about the complexity of the offense by Dan Patrick, Bill gives this quote. (paraphrasing) "It's harder on the receivers, picking up the offense it's knowing how to break a route so the ball is perfectly timed to them. A simple hitch in a step or a slip here or there and the QB can't lead them to the spot where the route is complete right when the ball arrives." (Think Branch's TD under the goal posts. Anyone remember what game this was? The throw is made right as he's completing his route so the ball almost looks like it was handed to him as he finishes his route.)

The kicker though, is when he talks QBs. He says this, "As long as your QB is physically disciplined, this offensive philosophy is so simplified for the position that some automatic success is almost a given." I remember scoffing at this and feeling like this was the 'Denver produces 1500 yards through system' argument. Add up all the men that were average or less than average athletes that functioned in versions of this passing system. There are a few notables including the likes of Steve DeBerg.

Hasselbeck was a sixth-Round pick for a reason. However, unlike Jon Kitna who had a bit better arm Hasselbeck could repeat the same physical motions over an over with nearly 90% accuracy. Kitna could throw a 15-yard dart right on the money, but then he could come back to the same throw and sail the ball high the next play. It's that simple ability of repeating the same throws over and over that made Hasselbeck a probowler and probably shows up in practices.

In looking for the next QB, lets not look at the cannons alone. Let's look at the most physically consistent QB because if he has this, the system is designed to help him have success. Let's just hope this QB can put it on a rope deeper than 10 yards where it doesn't look like a turkey trying to fly. Andrew Luck looks like this guy. Not a gun, but not a duck thrower. A system QB who repeats everything to a T, from his footwork to his shoulders to his control under duress this is a guy who definitely looks the part of the West Coast QB mold. I hope for Andrew Luck

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I like this post, overall, but to be clear

the West Coast Walsh designed and the offense Bates runs are very different. Hasselbeck could probably still succeed in a very pure WCO. Bates uses a ton of moving pocket, roll out and play action, and that means the quarterback needs those particular skills, not just the ones Walsh once looked for.

That said, being able to repeat a motion is almost the essence of athleticism. Every successful quarterback needs “consistency.”

by John Morgan on Oct 12, 2010 5:58 PM PDT reply actions  

Yep

it’s what makes good shooters in basketball, good hitters and pitchers in baseball, and so on, and so on . . .

by The Ancient Mariner on Oct 12, 2010 6:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

I wonder if also Hasselbeck is worse off passing in Shotgun.

Mike Holmgren once said that Bill Walsh hated the Shotgun as part of his offensive scheme because he believed that footwork set the timing of the offense as well as enhanced accuracy. I wonder if Hasselbeck is being asked to do too much throwing the extra 5 yards plus everytime and doing it mostly flat-footed.

His arm was never great and he’s definitely lost zip but even his mechanics look screwy to me.

by Joshua Kasparek on Oct 12, 2010 8:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think he used the shotgun very effectively in 2007 though

The year Holmgren said, fine, they know we’re going to pass, we’ll use the stinking shotgun. I thought Hass may have actually lobbied for it.

by B.B.Finnegan on Oct 13, 2010 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

I have some reservations on Andrew Luck.

And I still wonder if it would be wiser to pass on the QB position this year, given the elite talent at other positions, and the lack of at the QB position.

The CB class this year really, really excites me.

Covets: Mark Ingram, Marcell Dareus, Prince Amukamara, Rodney Hudson, and Owen Marecic.

by Carl Shinyama on Oct 12, 2010 7:13 PM PDT reply actions  

I think this QB class looks good

Andrew Luck is just unbelievable. The way he plays and his arm is accurate while also being a gun. Jake Locker is a physical specimen that needs some help being consistent but has shown the ability to improve year after year and game after game. I think Ryan Mallett falls to the second round or further, he reminds me of Kyle Boller, cannon arm and almost zero accuracy. Though after saying that, the CBs are looking good like last years DT class.

by Built2Spill on Oct 12, 2010 10:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

You've always got reservations about almost everything Carl.

Luck is a stud, we’d be lucky to get him. But it looks like the Bills will win the lotto this year. Which is unfair, because they’ve already had Jim Kelly and have nothing to show for it.

We have to get a QB, and this is a strong year for them. 3-4 top prospects is a good year. Waiting another year and hoping to be in the cellar for another season to have another crack at a A-1 QB prospect will suck.

I’m happy that we’ve got a front office that isn’t afraid to pull the trigger.

by hazbro24 on Oct 13, 2010 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

No, I do not have reservations on almost everything :)

I disagree with the idea that this is a strong year for QB’s. This is the first class in years where not one single QB prospect is a standout elite talent. Luck is the top quarterback by default more so than he is the top quarterback because he stands out.

Luck may not even declare for the draft this offseason.

The Seahawks do have to get a QB, but why not draft a guy like Mark Ingram, who you can build an offense around similar to what the Vikings have done with Adrian Peterson? I think even a guy like Whitehurst could succeed with an offense centered around a talent like Ingram. Of course, most of the rest of the personnel would have to be upgraded considerably, particularly where the O-line is concerned.

Covets: Mark Ingram, Marcell Dareus, Prince Amukamara, Rodney Hudson, and Owen Marecic.

by Carl Shinyama on Oct 14, 2010 8:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Is he truly good enough to build around?

And don’t we as of now have a solid RB combo? Wouldn’t the utilization of the draft pick be spent somewhere better than running back? And, will he even be out in the draft, or if so, even available when we pick?

It’s pretty early to start talking about these things, but I’m not so sure we’ll have the chance to grab a top tier 1st rounder. We’ll probably be in the middle of the round.

Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.

by Tyler Jorgensen on Oct 18, 2010 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

"and have nothing to show for it."

4 straight AFC Championships is something. Something pretty damn impressive, really. We can only DREAM of similar success, at this point. They might not have won the big one, but they certainly showed some greatness in the early 90’s.

Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.

by Tyler Jorgensen on Oct 18, 2010 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't follow college well enough to have an opinion on the prospects.

I can say that stand-alone, your sentiment may be well-placed.

But I have heard the sentiment for three years now. How long can a team afford to put it off? And if you wait 3 years too long instead of 2 and then the guy you pick busts, what then? He gets a couple years to prove himself, and then you’re staring at a decade of futility and then still have to go back to square one. And your draft position, your need and the depth and quality of the draft class still may not match up optimally.

Past couple years, with the declining franchising QB in hand situation, I looked at drafts like that, too, for some situations and positions, but I think now it’s not feasible. You take what comes, when it comes, if it warrants taking.

by jacobstevens on Oct 13, 2010 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Don't get me wrong, I WANT the Seahawks to get a quarterback. I believe completely they NEED to get a QB.

It’s strange, the past three years, I have been watching for possible future Seahawk QB’s because of that belief, and I believed fully even as far back as 2008, that Sam Bradford would be that guy if the Seahawks could get him.

That’s a risk you take by waiting. You could win that gamble, or you could fail; the draft is a crapshoot no matter what. In the Seahawks’ case, I do not believe they can afford to put it off by perhaps more than one more year. I feel that if they put it off this offseason, then they absolutely MUST draft one the following year.

I do agree that you take what comes, when it comes, if it warrants taking. The question is, do any of this year’s quarterbacks warrant taking? I am very, very unsure about that, and I’m leaning towards saying the nay-no because I do not believe this to be a strong draft class for quarterbacks. I may be wrong, but I will at least attempt to give an educated opinion: I have some games recorded and I will be breaking them down (though I already have to a degree).

Covets: Mark Ingram, Marcell Dareus, Prince Amukamara, Rodney Hudson, and Owen Marecic.

by Carl Shinyama on Oct 14, 2010 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

There seem to be a lot of good QB's available, but also a lot of teams drafting high with need.

More so than usual. Given that I think we might win the division, it looks like more than a few team needing QBs will be ahead of us.

by djafrot on Oct 16, 2010 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

We already effectively drafted a QB in 2011 draft

his name is Whitehurst and we spent our 3rd rounder on him. I can’t believe the Schneider/Carol braintrust is going to call him a failure which is what they’d be doing if they drafted another QB in the 1st round. Unless Locker drops in their lap in the late 1st or 2nd round where they can afford to sit him for a year or two, I’d bet on DL or DB. If BMW doesn’t hold down the #1WR spot, they could also go that way or always OL.

As long as we’re talking draft, it would surprise me if they don’t take chances on talented guys who go late due to injury or off-field issues, like they did with Thurman and McCoy. I’m thinking about numerous North Carolina players, Adrian Taylor or Greg Romeus.

by diehard82 on Oct 13, 2010 10:33 AM PDT reply actions  

Blah.

Covets: Mark Ingram, Marcell Dareus, Prince Amukamara, Rodney Hudson, and Owen Marecic.

by Carl Shinyama on Oct 14, 2010 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

He signed for 2 years, Charlie is on a trial basis only

And as the most important position in football, you can’t have too many QB’s. And you don’t pass up a franchise QB when you don’t have one and there’s one on the board.

by B.B.Finnegan on Oct 13, 2010 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

The assumption of a late 1st/2nd rd pick is interesting

Because it implies the Hawks do well this season. Which probably means Hasselbeck holding the keys all season and doing well (versus the alternative of Whitehurst, who in my opinion would probably struggle initially, given, you know, not a single snap of action in a regular season game). By extension, in this scenario, we can’t know what we have in Whitehurst come April 2011, because there won’t be enough information to make a better-informed view.

I have no idea whether any QBs still available in the late 1st rd will be franchise-quality, but selecting one with a late 1st pick is not an indictment of Whitehurst necessarily, but more of a hedge that hopefully one of the two works out. My $0.02 worth.

by sideshow bob on Oct 20, 2010 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

Shouldn't we temper this Andrew Luck lovefest

until later on the college season?

You know – when we can actually have some sort of gauge as to whether he’s even going to declare?

I keep seeing “LUCK LUCK LUCK GET ANDREW LUCK!” and we have no idea if he’s even looking at leaving early.

by chrees on Oct 13, 2010 12:43 PM PDT reply actions  

I wonder too if it's become easier to be a franchise quarterback

The only big time busts since the 2004 rule change are JaMarcus Russell and Alex Smith, and it’s arguable whether Russell busted simply because he didn’t give a shit. I suppose some might argue Smith still might turn it around as this has been arguably his best season and he’s still just 26.

During that same stretch, we have quite a few second tier guys that have succeeded: Schaub, Kolb and Henne. I wonder if a lesser explored part of the league becoming more passer friendly is that the standard for a franchise quarterback has lowered. We might be entering the age of the good enough quarterback and the elite surrounding talent. The Kyle Orton model, if you will.

The rules made it easier for a quarterback to complete a pass, and completion percentage has jumped over the last ten years. If it’s easier to complete a pass, it’s easier to play quarterback, and a quarterback’s performance is more dependent on run after catch and that’s dependent on who’s making the catch, not who’s throwing the pass.

Of course, that could be extended to argue that Seattle should draft a quarterback because that quarterback has less of a chance to bust or that could be extended to Seattle shouldn’t draft a quarterback and instead continue to surround Whitehurst with talent.

Anyway, just sort of thinking out loud here.

by John Morgan on Oct 13, 2010 3:51 PM PDT reply actions  

As I said at the end there John. Bill Walsh seemed to imply that the West coast offense

Allowed you to plug any QB into the system and have at least some automatic success. He wasn’t diminishing Joe Montana or Steve Young, but he was certainly saying that Dan Patrick implying that the offense was some how difficult to master or manipulate for QBs wasn’t true. So I think to some degree the value of the physical skill still sends guys with guns to the best teams but that doesn’t mean a 6th rounder with some mid range zip can make some probowls.

by Joshua Kasparek on Oct 13, 2010 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Is it fair to say that Kolb has succeeded?

This is only his first season has the starting quarterback.

Covets: Mark Ingram, Marcell Dareus, Prince Amukamara, Rodney Hudson, and Owen Marecic.

by Carl Shinyama on Oct 14, 2010 8:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

In that case a truly elite QB would be just as valuable.

I’d think. In a pass-friendly league someone like Manning would be nearly unstoppable.

by djafrot on Oct 16, 2010 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

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