What's Wrong With John Carlson, Final
When I say John Carlson, my wife says "John Carlson's agent." This stems the from the summer of 2008, when I told my wife to remind me to contact Carlson's agent to set up an interview. Ultimately, I decided I didn't want to interview Carlson. It wasn't what I did and it wasn't a relationship I wanted to forge with a player. It would have created short term dividends, assuming I could have actually set up the interview (and I'm persistent), but it would have muddied the waters. It's also why I have dropped organizing the Brandon Mebane event. I love Mebane the player, but, as much fun as it would be, it's not my prerogative to help create hype and goodwill for him as an employee. I am probably partisan enough, frankly.
Journalistic objectivity is in the news right now after the firing of Juan Williams by NPR. I have always found the argument that a journalist must be objective to be kind of preposterous. Can humans be objective? Is it even possible with how the human brain works? Logic is an invention rather than an innate method of thought, and anyone who presumes themselves to be above bias and emotion has no chance of being fair. That's really what the media should strive to be, fair, equitable and accurate. Mindful that bias, superstition and emotion must be overcome rather than denied.
So, when I quizzed myself why Carlson was struggling so bad this season, and that is an inference but one I'm sure I'm not alone in reaching, I came up with a few stock answers:
- Carlson is struggling with the new offense. He is playing three positions: tight end, wide receiver and, occasionally, fullback/split back. I remembered incomplete passes that stemmed from route confusion, and that seemed to be the answer. After inspection, I only marked five plays as "undefined." These are plays involving route confusion, or, in one case, an early pass / a pass Carlson didn't make a strong effort to receive. So, though problems with the new offense might contribute, it's a minor part of his "struggles."
- Carlson is a typical polished Ruskell pick that peaked early and is now declining though only 26. This seems to be unsupported nonsense, something I considered because of the modest early showings of Darryl Tapp and Josh Wilson.
- Carlson is the listed target on a lot of uncatchable passes. And this one seems like the best explanation, but I would extend it further.
Carlson is receiving for a quarterback that, and I confront this idea every so often, might be among the very worst starters in the NFL. Matt Hasselbeck might be so bad, not just weak armed but hesitant, sometimes wild, incapable of completing a roll out, and, yes, incapable of challenging safeties deep, that it's borderline impossible to evaluate any skill position player independent of him.
This isn't a novel idea either, I seemingly mention it all the time. Not just with Hasselbeck, but a player like Terrell Owens, who I noted this off-season
It does make sense for somebody to pursue the controversial, but nevertheless sensational, wide receiver. [Owens'] last season in Dallas wasn't too hot, and maybe he really has lost too much to be good again, but if I had to pin blame for his DYAR disaster in 2009, I would look first to Trent Edwards and Ryan Fitzpatrick.
and boy was the sarcasm dripping off that post*. In fact, I look for hidden receiver talent every off-season and in the draft, because a receiver truly can not accomplish almost anything independent of his quarterback.
*Owens, it should be noted, is having another poor season for receiving DYAR, despite ranking fourth in the NFL in receiving yards. Which, well, he wouldn't have done in better in Seattle.
My final tally has 17 passes listed as "no fault", Carlson's 17 receptions. Hopeless third down attempts and two and three yard targets into coverage are not helping his DYAR or EPA, but they're not mistakes, per se. Two, yes, two, passes are listed as Carlson's fault. You can add three if you think he should have caught that deep pass before being blown up by Rashad Johnson. You can also add some of the route confusion passes if you think those are solely Carlson's fault, though I think that's speculative. I recorded five passes that failed but lack a clear player to blame.
Lets break this out in case anyone suffers paragraph fatigue: 15 of John Carlson's 39 targets were intercepted or fell incomplete because of Matt Hasselbeck, 38% of all targets.
I didn't know where this series of posts would lead, and, honestly, between a desire to move on from the eternal bench-Hasselbeck debate and my absolute exhaustion of pointing out just how poorly Matt has played, I didn't want to write another post that concludes that Hasselbeck is to blame, but Hasselbeck is to blame. Not entirely, but predominately, and for every play I as a screwup by Hasselbeck, we can probably speculate another is not even attempted. Because not only is Matt not completing passes he is attempting, but a better, more capable quarterback could attempt and complete better, more valuable passes. Carlson's value is limited both by what Matt does and what he incapable of doing.
Apart from that broken record, dead horse, elephant in the living room, we can take heart that if there is something wrong with John Carlson, there is little evidence to suggest as much. Carlson is probably just fine. The same route running machine we learned to love, with underrated athleticism and strong hands. We can take heart that there is talent on this offense, and then we can remember it doesn't make a damn bit of difference until someone can take advantage of it.
(This becomes a grind, I have to admit. And that sucks, because it's a grind that I simultaneously love. When I think about starting a general NFL blog, this is exactly why. The NFL is awesome, full of talented players and exciting matchups, but as much as I love the Seahawks, Seattle plays bad, sloppy football, and the major reason why is that they start a broken, aging quarterback. If Charlie Whitehurst isn't the solution and this season plays out how it looks to play out, there really isn't an end in sight. What I do at Field Gulls isn't really rah-rah, it's more like criticism, and criticizing only the Seahawks is a bit like, well, a bit like being an art critic that only ever visits the Seattle Art Museum. You can wait for great things to come, but in the interim, you can only rephrase "the Kurt Cobain Exhibit sucks balls" in so many ways. And I got to tell you, friend to friend, the Kurt Cobain Exhibit sucks balls.)
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This is one of your better posts as of late.
I’ve started my own blog about the Seahawks, and since then I’ve admittedly not been as in touch with you analysis (though don’t conclude that I’ve been out of touch). But this post had me from start to end. I suppose being an unabashed fan of John Carlson helps, as well. I’ve got his signature on my Carlson jersey not once, but twice.
It makes me sad that the events that have culminated into a 4-2 record make the likelihood of Whitehurst stepping onto the field this season quite slim. I’m a firm believer that, as long as the Seahawks are competitive in the NFC West, Matt Hasselbeck will be the Seahawks starting quarterback.
Being 4-2, and on top of the division, means only a mighty fall would cause the Seahawks to lose enough footing to miss the playoffs.
But hey, with Okung and Mebane missing significant time, such a fall isn’t out of the realm of possibility, especially with the teams the Seahawks will soon be facing.
"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM
http://seahawksblog.wordpress.com
*sigh* the first 'you' should be 'your'
"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM
http://seahawksblog.wordpress.com
That is some fucked-up preztel logic you got going there
by lemonverbena on Oct 28, 2010 12:34 AM PDT up reply actions
I think it's crystal clear.
We’re going to barely be competing with Hass, but we’re in first place, and fear of the unknown will keep us in this status quo of crappy QB play, until we’re forced to remove the QB by a poor record (under, let’s remember, a THIRD head coach who gives Matt too much credit.)
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Oct 28, 2010 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't understand what you mean about the '3 coaches' thing
In 2007, Matt put the team on his back and lead the offense very successfully with average (or below-average) receivers. Should Holmgren have benched him then?
In 2008, Matt lost his top 3-4 receivers within 2-3 games and then was injured for most of the season. Should Holmgren have benched him then?
I understand the argument about benching Matt this year (or towards the end of last year), but I don’t know why you’d want to bench him/replace him durin Holmgren’s tenure.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Oct 28, 2010 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm only saying that if "winning" is the operative defining characteristic that is keeping him in the lineup today, then it isn't a very real evaluation...
Seeing how his teams have lost for 3 straight years now.
And you can blame his lack of success in Holmgren’s last year on injuries, but let’s be honest, he hasn’t been the same guy that led us to the SB since before ’08.
And you even listed it— his own injury is part of the issue here. When your QB can’t throw and spends considerable time on the injury report two years in a row, while on the long side of 30, it’s time to move on. Every game he starts today is a game Charlie could “not lose” just as easily, and possibly even push us into the future.
Right now, Matt’s sole job is to “not lose” yet he has been doing exactly that, pretty much continuously, going on three years now.
In fact, as John’s most recent post about where we stack up statistically displays— if you were to take away some great/amazing efforts by our defense and special teams, Hasselbeck doesn’t even “not lose” well this year, a year in which too many people are willing to pretend he is doing exactly that.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Oct 28, 2010 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions
I understand your argument
even if I don’t necessarily agree with it.
John’s most recent post reinforces the idea that we all understand: the offense sucks. We don’t all share the same opinion about the reasons, but I think that point is clear. I’m of the opinion that the offense needs more time to gel and that it will improve as Matt’s comfort level improves, such that it may be relatively competent by the time we hit the playoffs. You probably have a more skeptical view of the offenses’s chances and that’s fine.
I just don’t think there’s much reason to worry about when Charlie gets the nod. The timing is outside of our control and the results are unpredictable. When it does happen, I just hope Charlie gets the benefit of the doubt here if he doesn’t light up the league immediately.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Oct 28, 2010 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Ty John, perfect timing for this post
You broke down exactly what was on my mind last night much better than I could have with limited tape. Pete & Schneider are obviously building a big play team, lets hope we get the QB sooner than later.
For my entire life, our emerald city was set in the finest gold ring, upon a royal purple standard of excellence. The best will stumble, but the elite will always rise again.
John, based on what you've presented here...
I am left to conclude that DYAR is a worthless measure of ability. Don’t they have anything better than this?
It's the nature of the beast
Stats have a purpose in the NFL, both at describing the workings of the game and the general ability of a team, but it’s still next to impossible to isolate the contributions of an individual player.
I see what you are saying, but...
In pretty short order (and not to diminish the work you put into this) you broke down every pass play to Carlson over the course of 6 games. You were able to identify uncatchable balls, etc. Relevant statistics can be derived from this. Sure it will require subjective input but I’d take that over what we have now; which is ALL passes are catchable and if you can’t catch them well screw you.
by farmer cam on Oct 27, 2010 7:42 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
You will be announcing the launching of the Technical Institute for Professional Football Analysis.
TIPFA will not initially be an accredited school, but we hope to become one within four years. We will train a legion of bright young minds on how to use stats & film study to provide meaningful analysis for every NFL team, forsaking journalistic misconceptions of bias but achieving rational objectivity through reason, humility, aversion to hyperbole and polite & civil discourse. You will learn how to make entertaining .gif images, switch from 2nd to 1st person voice and then back again in the same paragraph, and how to uphold the importance of always using the subject line. Graduate cirriculum includes a course on writing vulgar, taunting haikus.
by jacobstevens on Oct 28, 2010 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm signing up, but only if Scruffy's teaching the .gifs course.
And is there still room in Robert’s class, “FUCK THE FUCKING CARDINALS”?
Thank you, Walter Jones.
Thank you, Ken Griffey Jr.
by thebyron on Oct 28, 2010 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think we need to wish
His pocket presence + Locklear + No Okung + Old Man Body = Ripe for injury.
Michael Robinson leads the Seahawks in completion percentage, yards-per-attempt, and QB rating.
I don't wish Hasselbeck injury either...
it was discussed during the MNF game that the Giants defense has knocked out several QB’s already this year. The way that Matt is hanging out in the pocket the potential for injury is there – especially with Okung down.
If there is any such a thing as a jinx, this thing is jinxed.
The Giants-killed-5-QBs thing is all over the sports mediaverse, not just the Seahawk part.
by jacobstevens on Oct 28, 2010 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Anyone remember the Eli Manning hit in the preseason?
Helmet came off, blood everywhere? A portent, I tell you. A portent.
Yes. Not kind on my part.
I’ll take the stomach flu then. Real bad strain. Give Charlie Pops a chance to float one down on BMW 50 yards down field.
On a side note, I watch the Charlie Pops video at least once daily. Perhaps the most authentic laugh I’ve experienced in years. It may be crazy, but makes me feel good to laugh with Lynch. Weird.
It is what it is...
Yeah, that's much better. Way to try.
"Hey, guess what? Nobody cares who would win in a crazy fantasy fist-fight between Anne Frank and Lizzie Borden." The Monarch
by crushedoptimist on Oct 27, 2010 7:59 PM PDT up reply actions
I wish the mods would crack down on people
wishing for Seahawk players to be injured. Its in poor taste to wish for opposing players to be injured. Wishing for your own player to be injured is something else.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Oct 27, 2010 7:56 PM PDT up reply actions
We just need people like you to call others out on their unpleasant ideas
Rather than wielding the Banhammer like a tyrant, it’s better to outwit your opponents with mature and reasonable debate. Wishing injury to befall any man in blue is egregious, I agree, sometimes the best discussion is forged with expressing unpopular ideas.
I'm not arguing for a banhammer
or even a warning. I simple “That’s not cool. Cut it out.” from the mods would probably shut it down.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Oct 27, 2010 9:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Then I would suggest flagging any commenter who plays the "I wish Hasselbeck would get hurt" card.
The mods will check out the thread; no guarantee they’ll chastise the perpetrator, though.
perhaps people forget that
“getting hurt” i.e. incurring an injury so severe a player can’t take the field; is basically wishing for someone to endure horrible pain. Shit can get taken out of perspective yo…
by jubelthebear on Oct 27, 2010 10:06 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't think it has to be a mod.
FG is, to a large extent, self-policing.
Thank you, Walter Jones.
Thank you, Ken Griffey Jr.
I wish him the clarity of conscious to remove himself from the starting lineup.
If he really wants to win, he should ask himself if his leadership would be better from the bench.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Oct 28, 2010 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Whitehurst Fans
Isn’t it possible the reason Matt is still starting over Charlie is because Charlie has yet to show anyone that he’s ready to start at QB? Maybe, contrary to what all the Hasselbashers think, Matt still gives the Hawks the best chance to win a game? Here’s an interesting stat, Michael Robinson, a RB, has thrown more passes this year than Charlie Whitehurst has yet in his career…1
I hope this isn’t the case, maybe Matt offers a little suckey suckey to the coaches to keep his starting gig, but since there’s a 99% chance this is Matt’s last year on the Hawks, and he is prone to injury, we’ll find out what Charlie is all about soon enough.
I would question how much people calling for Hasselbeck to step down are Whitehurst fans
Or more people who feel Hasselbeck is at best mediocre enough to back us into the playoffs, and who want to see if Hasselbeck is more than that either right now or in potentia, thus knowing where we stand next year. Hasselbeck isn’t our future. Whitehurst might be, no matter how unlikely one thinks that is.
by Thomas Beekers on Oct 28, 2010 8:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks John
I’ve been thinking that Carlson’s lack of success has been due to schematic or qb factors. It’s nice to see that I might be right for once.
With this team, I feel like the other shoe will drop sometime soon. They’ve succeeded so far largely on defensive opportunism, special teams, and some clever offensive playcalling which has maximized the shortened field upon which the Seahawks must play due to Matt’s lack of range. But there’s only so much you can make out of such a truncated target zone. I fear that the rest of the NFL will figure it out and our season will be lost. I hope that’s just the typical pessimism of an oft-disappointed fan, but I fear that this team is just a hair’s breadth away from collapse.
by jeager on Oct 27, 2010 8:27 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
I find it wildly entertaining...
that on Monday fans were discussing playoffs and it has taken just two days for many to revert to “our season will be lost”. Pretty wacky shit if you ask me. In two days from the optimism that was John’s Super Bowl Post to this sentiment, I don’t really know how to describe it….
by Woodinville_12thMan on Oct 27, 2010 9:15 PM PDT up reply actions
I think somewhere in the middle is a more reasonable expectation
A single win won’t win us the Super Bowl. A single loss won’t kill our future.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Oct 27, 2010 9:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Wrong
A single win does win us the Super Bowl. If that single win takes place by the Seahawks on Feb 6, 2011
I think it's an accurate depiction of the team
Probably not a great regular season team and capable of collapse, but built for the playoffs especially if it can win home field.
I also believe this team is capable of improving itself as the season progresses
Remember that more than half the roster is comprised of players who weren’t here last season, and everyone is playing under new coaches, as well as new offensive and defensive schemes. For example, look at how safety blitzes have become much more pronounced and effective over the past 2 weeks. Hopefully Carroll will find a way to get Carlson better involved in the passing game…..somehow.
I think it's just a matter
of different people coming out on different days. I think you’d be hard-pressed to find someone who’s done an about face in the last 48 hours regarding how good this team is.
And we rocked, and they said that we rocked, and they rejoiced, and there was much rejoicing. Seahawks astride the division at 4-2 and gunning for the lead in the conference. Look out Rodney Harrison.
Seems more likely.
No reason for the pessimists to bring down an optimistic post anyway. The tone of the post directs the comments.
Well, what Ive been feeling watching this team and the rest of the division
is that this is probably a playoff team but a terrible one.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Oct 28, 2010 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Based on 5 failures to convert TDs
the collapse may already have happened. Max Hall’s room-elephant was just far bigger.
And we rocked, and they said that we rocked, and they rejoiced, and there was much rejoicing. Seahawks astride the division at 4-2 and gunning for the lead in the conference. Look out Rodney Harrison.
"Logic is an invention rather than an innate method of thought..."
Immanuel Kant disagrees.
You mean a priori?
I don’t think that’s true. A priori knowledge is attained without logic, and so, sort of supports the notion that logic is an invention rather than a natural state. But my philosophy is rusty. Maybe I’m missing something.
by John Morgan on Oct 27, 2010 9:31 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
My understanding is as follows. (But I'm not a Kant scholar, so I'm not exactly shart on this material either.)
Kant believes that our understanding of logic is transcendental. Roughly, that means that our selection of logic is innate in the sense that it’s just how creatures with cognitive faculties like ours process and systematize things. Anyway, since innate knowledge is a form of a priori knowledge, this isn’t really a major contention.
(Also, a minor point: some a priori knowledge is attained through logic: viz., knowledge of certain analytically true propositions; and some synthetic a priori knowledge is attained with the aid of logic.)
Krishnamurti felt that "knowledge" was a hindrance to observation, and therefore to truth
“If you have beliefs, then you never see what is true.” To me this means that one should never think they have arrived at anything. Be present, be open, observe without bias.
by lemonverbena on Oct 28, 2010 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't know what Krishnamurti means by 'knowledge', but here's what I mean by it:
knowledge =df justified true belief + G, where G is whatever set of conditions are required to avoid Gettier cases. If you’re not open to gaining knowledge (or justified belief), then to what are you open, exactly?
Open to observation without preconception
Doesn’t mean you don’t remember anything or have opinions, you just don’t adhere to them to the extent that they are a filter through with everything muss pass.
by lemonverbena on Oct 28, 2010 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions
It's a magical journey
of joy and wonderrrrrr!
And we rocked, and they said that we rocked, and they rejoiced, and there was much rejoicing. Seahawks astride the division at 4-2 and gunning for the lead in the conference. Look out Rodney Harrison.
That was my Charlie the Unicorn voice...
aherm… anyway.
And we rocked, and they said that we rocked, and they rejoiced, and there was much rejoicing. Seahawks astride the division at 4-2 and gunning for the lead in the conference. Look out Rodney Harrison.
Oh I caught it. I just couldn't come up with any clever response to it.
Too busy being in exhilarating, reality-denying love and miserable, loathing hate with my team right now.
by jacobstevens on Oct 28, 2010 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Just a minor detail, but something is missing from this sentence
“Not entirely, but predominately, and for every play I ______ as a screwup by Hasselbeck…”
Well I think we'll get to see some Whitehurst against the Giants.
I think they’ve knocked out like 4 QB’s already
Didn't someone say that CW was warming up in the 2nd last game
Has there been any questions about it?
How about this?
How about the fact that Carlson isn’t the only BIG target anymore? I’m sure Williams is taking alot of targets from John as well as the other talented back up tight-ends although if I see another TE drop an easy catch in the EZ I may pull my hair out.
So, let's put on the ose tinted glasses and assume a 9-7 Seahawks team making the playoffs
What is the best way forward? Do you stick with Hass a a least worst scenario because testing out Whitehurst doesn’t get you to 9-7, or do you pursue trades and if so who might be available?
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Oct 28, 2010 12:31 PM PDT reply actions
Re-signing Hass for anything but the Trent Dilfer role would be a bad idea
He’d be useful as the veteran clipboard holder to serve as mentor to a young guy, and to step in for the young guy if a game gets out of hand, but signing him as the starter would obviously be a horrible idea.
There aren’t many QBs out there for trade that are very attractive, I think the best hope is finding someone in the draft. At the very least pick someone up in the 3rd round and give them a shot. Yeah we’d be in the Max Hall/Colt McCoy zone of quarterback pain, but at least we’d be going somewhere. Playing Hass is treading water, I’d rather sink or swim.
I'm talking about this season
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Oct 28, 2010 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Wait until he gets hurt, insert Whitehurst and bring up Zac Robinson
Because barring a total meltdown, Carroll is not going to bench Hass.
by lemonverbena on Oct 28, 2010 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions
As has been mentioned above,
I really want some more detail on the whole CW warming up thing. Has he done that before? Like as a routine to stay warm? Or was this after a particularly bad series by Matt? Or is it just a rumor? ‘Cuz I haven’t seen anyone else pick up on it and could have huge implications. Carroll and the media have been very silent on the whole Whitehurst front since the season started (with the exception of right before the bye week after losing to St Louis), despite Hasselbeck putting up such average numbers.
And we rocked, and they said that we rocked, and they rejoiced, and there was much rejoicing. Seahawks astride the division at 4-2 and gunning for the lead in the conference. Look out Rodney Harrison.
I couldn't agree more
Come on people. Sombody on FGs has been at the games and should have the answer. If it was just a rumor then at least someone saying that they haven’t noticed this.
Well I went to that game.
But ya know, girlfriend was there so I can’t focus COMPLETELY on sideline action.
And we rocked, and they said that we rocked, and they rejoiced, and there was much rejoicing. Seahawks astride the division at 4-2 and gunning for the lead in the conference. Look out Rodney Harrison.
you gotta stay focused
Out of state people are depending on you
by stufr on Oct 29, 2010 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Booooo no Vick.
And we rocked, and they said that we rocked, and they rejoiced, and there was much rejoicing. Seahawks astride the division at 4-2 and gunning for the lead in the conference. Look out Rodney Harrison.
I hate to say it, but Vick is currently a much better QB than Matt
He could also get the ball to our deep threats and open up the offense, is mobile (duh), and can roll-out etc.
As a dog lover, however, I would be appalled.
You can't forgive what he did
But you can forgive the current man who has asked for forgivness, did his time and doing everything to make up for his wrongs.
Its easy to condem.
Its much more difficult to forgive.
That's ridiculous.
We would be in a world of shit if that was how people behaved.

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