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Around SBN: How The Kings Beat The Coyotes: Lather, Rinse, Repeat

Larry Fitzgerald Was Out of Bounds

More touchbacks; fewer kicker tackles: I don't miss Josh Brown.

LaRod Stephens-Howling returned the opening kick off 52 yards in play where both Matt McCoy and Will Herring shifted hard left. Special teams is especially hard to deduce, because of the speed and comparative looseness of it, and especially because of the preferred camera angle which zooms on the returner. So that's up to the coaching staff to assign credit and blame for, but this looked like a pretty major kick off coverage failure. Stephens-Howling was able to run almost straight up the hash marks.

This post covers the Cardinals short scoring drive. It was mostly Stephens-Howling's return and Larry Fitzgerald's long reception. I am not inclined to agree or disagree with officials, but do not think enough fact checking is done on questionable calls.

1-10-ARI 48 (14:52) 34-T.Hightower left tackle to ARZ 49 for 1 yard (92-B.Mebane, 95-K.Balmer).

Brandon Mebane shot off his block and Kentwan Balmer closed from the back side and the two met to wrap Tim Hightower after a gain of one.

2-9-ARI 49 (14:19) 3-D.Anderson pass short left to 36-L.Stephens-Howling to SEA 38 for 13 yards (94-J.Siavii).

Junior Siavii is thrown down and Mebane either trips over him or is thrown down himself. Chris Clemons and Balmer are deep into the Cardinals backfield. Siavii picks himself up and recovers to chase Stephens-Howling as Stephens-Howling cuts right and away from Aaron Curry. That saved a bunch of yards.

1-10-SEA 38 (13:38) 34-T.Hightower right tackle to SEA 35 for 3 yards (91-C.Clemons).

Clemons shakes off lead blocker Reagan Maui'a and tackles Hightower. Siavii closes from the left. Siavii has looked good -- a competent proxy for Colin Cole.

2-7-SEA 35 (12:59) 3-D.Anderson pass deep right to 11-L.Fitzgerald pushed ob at SEA 2 for 33 yards (23-M.Trufant). Seattle challenged the pass completion ruling, and the play was Upheld. (Timeout #1.)

Here's the big play. Seattle rushes seven but generates little pressure. Clemons does a decent job on a bull rush on the right and that contributes to Derek Anderson throwing flat footed, but rushing seven and creating very little pressure is a set up to get burned. Seattle does, but, well ...

Star-divide

Vlcsnap-2010-11-15-14h09m05s191_medium

It looks like his left foot touches down out of bounds before his right foot can contact the turf in bounds, but I do respect that the officials stuck with the ruling on the field. The one thing that is not entirely clear is whether Fitzgerald's left foot is touching out of bounds or if it's ever so slightly above the turf. Hard to say, but if it's not touching, it's microns above the turf.

Anyway. Long receptions happen and great plays and great players tend to get the benefit of the doubt. Ask Josh Wilson.

1-2-SEA 2 (12:52) 34-T.Hightower left tackle for 2 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

Mebane wins his matchup and seals off the outside and almost, almost catches Hightower for a loss. It was so tantalizingly close that I initially blamed him in part for the touchdown, but that's not the case. Instead, this is one of those moments the Seahawks miss Red Bryant. Bryant may not have surely prevented this touchdown, but the Seahawks run defense breaks down with replacement strongside end Balmer.

It's simple really. Siavii is turned and lost in the scrum. Lofa Tatupu could fill if he was free, but right tackle Brandon Keith was all over him. Keith reaches Tatupu after single blocking Balmer and passing him on to tight end Ben Patrick. Bryant, by contrast, was much harder to pass by, occupying and controlling blockers. He also would likely be able to crash down on the hole if blocked one-on-one by a tight end. Instead, a lead blocker reaches the second level and the rusher shoots the rush lane untouched for the touchdown.

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Fitz was out of bounds...

The announcers actually said, “the play stands,” while the screen read “play reversed.” So at a bar, this was like “YESSSS!,” followed by a quick “huh?”

Also, I loved Carroll getting after the ref the second they called that complete. I swear I read his lips saying “stop wasting my f***ing time!”

Ka-Kaaa!

by JerryNice on Nov 15, 2010 2:46 PM PST reply actions  

Good camera work wouldn't have changed Lynch's play

By that point we’d used both challenges (Fitz catch, BMFMW’s “fumble”). Since the Fitz catch stood, we didn’t have a challenge left to use.

I really think they need to revise the challenge system to give you 2 “failed” challenges. A team shouldn’t be punished for losing on one close challenge, and then having no recourse if the officials make multiple erroneous calls after that. I get not wanting to slow down the game, but there’s no excuse for not getting the calls right.

by SmartAssCoug on Nov 15, 2010 3:10 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

The challenge system is fundamentally flawed, so the NFL won't change it

The only fair system is the college system, which really has not slowed the game precipitously. You deal with the problem of crappy officials without giving coaches too much discretion to “challenge” in order to stop the clock.

The problem with giving back “successful” challenges is the well-officiated game as much as the horribly-officiated game. Providing two additional timeouts for a coach to use at his discretion is a huge advantage to the trailing team.

That’s one of the very few things I think college gets right over pros in both principle and practice.

"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin

by dcrockett17 on Nov 15, 2010 3:22 PM PST up reply actions  

It's not really 2 additional timeouts though

If a game is well officiated and a coach just throws the red flag for a timeout, he’s going to lose the challenge and the timeout. I think the loss of a timeout is an acceptable cost for losing a challenge.

I’d just hate to see a team punished for missing on one review and then being penalized if 2 or more horrendous calls go against them later in the game.

I agree that the college system does certainly have some benefits in trying to get things a little more right than the current NFL replay format though.

by SmartAssCoug on Nov 15, 2010 3:58 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't know...

I see too many times when there is a play that SHOULD be reviewed, and the booth doesn’t in college either.

So then the coach essentially uses a time out to “force” a replay, but there’s no guarantee the booth is actually reviewing during that time out, they might be getting coffee and updating their facebook for all we know.

"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey

by Tyler Jorgensen on Nov 16, 2010 11:57 AM PST up reply actions  

Doesn't matter. I too, would have LIKED to have at least SEEN a fucking replay of the play.

It was an incredibly ferocious run, and we got nary a note on it by the announcers, and no replay to boot.

"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey

by Tyler Jorgensen on Nov 16, 2010 11:55 AM PST up reply actions  

True, Mother Fucking, That.

The whole TV situation was aweful, but a blowout win against a division rival makes anything tolerable.

by skwid206 on Nov 15, 2010 3:11 PM PST up reply actions  

I completely agree.

But even worse, when they do have replays and additional angles available, Fox decides to cut to commercial instead.

If the play clock isn’t running, it’s a commercial. So infuriating.

by jhmg16 on Nov 15, 2010 3:23 PM PST up reply actions  

Whether or not Lynch got in

He got an INCREDIBLY shitty spot on the play. I mean, probably a full yard short of where the ball would have been had he been stopped short.

At least the Fitzgerald play was close. 2 calls that were especially egregious:

1. The “horsecollar” tackle. I mean, come on. When someone gets horsecollared, there’s a particular way they get pulled down to the ground. You can almost always tell by the ball carrier whether or not it was a horsecollar. That wasn’t even close. And replays just made it apparent how terrible it was.

2. Kerry Rhodes getting only the 5 yard delay of game penalty when he kicked the ball out of BMW’s hands after that reception instead of the 15 yard Unsportsmanlike Conduct. Again, just inexcusable.

by Kingdomer on Nov 15, 2010 3:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Speaking of camera angles...

Did anyone else see Mebane belly-bump Derek Anderson right in front of two refs, and not get called for anything? I watched it over and over. That really cracked me up.

by Cannonater on Nov 15, 2010 4:36 PM PST up reply actions  

This chest bump needs to be GIF'd by someone more gifted than me

This play was hilarious and deserves to be immortalized into the Field Gull gif annals.

by scotthawk on Nov 15, 2010 5:13 PM PST up reply actions  

hahaha

It didn’t even look like a chest bump. He like shoved his belly at him. I guess it was making up for that Unsportsmanlike Conduct penalty on Raheem Brock when ARI was in Seattle.

by dankfranks on Nov 15, 2010 10:30 PM PST up reply actions  

I thought he was out too....

But my dad and I were both surprised that Trufant wasn’t called for pass interference.

by skwid206 on Nov 15, 2010 2:48 PM PST reply actions  

If I remember right...

Tru had his head and basically whole body turned that isn’t considered pass interference since he was making a play on the ball but I could be wrong on that

by Ironbob on Nov 15, 2010 3:17 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

You are not

I don’t remember exactly but I also think the ball was within 5 yards before Tru made contact.

But then again by no means an expert on NFL rules, I seem to learn new ones every game. It seems like to me the penalty yards are random at times.

One good thing about baseball is its simple I know what will happen is a rule is broken.

Eat shit bum!

by LeftArrow2 on Nov 15, 2010 3:24 PM PST up reply actions  

I was in the same boat.

Tru threw an elbow into Fitz, and then pushed his shoulder with his hand.

by Phil Hatzenbuehler on Nov 15, 2010 3:25 PM PST up reply actions  

Well...

I was actually being really sarcastic. I thought Tru made a bad (or no) play on the ball, but not anything near pass interference. It just seems like he’s been a PI-magnet, justified or not, since coming back from injury last year.

by skwid206 on Nov 15, 2010 4:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Dear Mebane,

Please don’t get hurt again. We need you. Your capacity to engage multiple blockers and penetrate the offensive line is essential to our defensive success.

Love,
Seahawks

by jeager on Nov 15, 2010 3:24 PM PST reply actions  

Also, please re-sign.

Thanks,
everyone

"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM

http://seahawksblog.wordpress.com

by Nick Andron on Nov 15, 2010 3:28 PM PST up reply actions  

thanks for that!

I missed the whole first quarter, that is hilarious.

From The Hawks Nest - Seahawks Podcast
http://www.http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/from-the-hawks-nest/id385227705

by Hancock.Brett on Nov 15, 2010 3:40 PM PST up reply actions  

I cringed when I saw it happen.

Then laughed when there was no call for unsportsmanlike conduct.

by grips on Nov 15, 2010 4:00 PM PST up reply actions  

but it was within two minutes

and they didn’t even look at it. In the biggest game of the year. When the officials had already had a terrible post season performance……wounds are still deep sorry.

From The Hawks Nest - Seahawks Podcast
http://www.http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/from-the-hawks-nest/id385227705

by Hancock.Brett on Nov 15, 2010 3:39 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah he was out of bounds.

Holy shit scouting out New Orleans they could destroy us like the Giants did. Game’s not played on paper, they give up more turnovers than they ought to and the special teams matchup could mitigate one or two dozen yards on either side of the field for us, but the matchup looks pretty damn sobering.

by jacobstevens on Nov 15, 2010 3:47 PM PST reply actions  

We can beat the Saints...

Their defense is pretty piss-poor and they’re one-dimensional on offense and turnover the ball a good amount. How else do you think the Cardinals beat them? Plus, they have Julius Jones so that has to favor us in some way right?

by StealthHawk on Nov 15, 2010 4:10 PM PST up reply actions  

The turnovers are a major weakness for them

Plus, from what I’ve seen they are pretty terrible against the run, and I feel like the return of Okung bodes well for us. I see it as a similar challenge to the Chargers game. Their overall talent level is a bit better than ours on offense, but turnovers and special teams can take a huge bite out of their ability to exploit any weaknesses.

Plus, the Hawks are allowing only 54% completion rate on passes… That’s pretty respectable actually, and also bodes well for us since the Saints really have no running game to speak of.

by Kingdomer on Nov 15, 2010 4:23 PM PST up reply actions  

I think this is a function of them being exceptional against the pass though.

5.2 NY/A passing allowed. That seems…really damn good.

4.2 Y/A rushing allowed. That seems much more pedestrian.

It’s tough to ignore a team that first in yards per play allowed, second in passing yards allowed, third in total yards allowed. That’s a good defense. Not a piss-poor one.

by Kingdomer on Nov 15, 2010 5:46 PM PST up reply actions  

they might get

Reggie Bush and Pierre Thomas back that game. that’s a big frown face.

Beam yourself up

I'm a one man rec'n crew

by jubelthebear on Nov 15, 2010 10:25 PM PST up reply actions  

Fuck

The one weekend I come to Seattle every year and this is the first year they’re on a road game. Damnit.

"...and Kareem Jackson will fall down..."

by .Bonzo on Nov 15, 2010 3:48 PM PST reply actions  

I was actually sort of upset

that PC challenged the Fitzgerald catch. As soon as I saw the replay I thought “don’t challenge that, too close to overturn”… I felt like he must’ve been throwing it from an emotional standpoint, a protest, as opposed to listening to the guys in his headset saying that the video evidence actually favors it.

The BMW fumble was pretty weird. The broadcasters kept saying it was a “bang bang” and not a catch. What the hell does that mean? I take it to mean that the player has to have possession for some minimum length of time. If this is the case, just say that, not this ridiculous “bang bang” drivel. Further, if the rule is a guy has to hold it for a specific amount of time, tell me what that length of time is. Make it two tenths of a second lets say. It would be possible to measure this with reasonable accuracy based on the number of frames of video that show the player in possession (since the frame rate is known). This “football move” shit is mystical and absurd. In this case it didn’t make a huge difference, but tell that to Calvin Johnson.

by michaelfox99 on Nov 15, 2010 4:41 PM PST reply actions  

It would be impossible for an official to enforce a two tenths of a second possesion rule.

It’s possible once a review is enacted, but not on the field. It would just cause more consternation.

Football move is the best we’re going to get. I think it’s clear in most cases. It means the receiver had possession and subsequently attempted to do something else: run, break a tackle, spin, cut, etc. And it’s actually enforceable on the field in real time.

by John Morgan on Nov 15, 2010 4:57 PM PST up reply actions  

I understand the implication

of “bang bang” to be that the possession was not long enough. It seemed like BMW did secure the ball and turn (a football move), but it just happened too fast to call it a catch. The football move thing seems to me like nothing more than a sloppy approximation to the time duration rule. What if a guy catches it and clearly possesses the ball for several seconds without moving at all? I don’t think any official is calling that anything other than possession. We use the football move test only for close calls. I am arguing that timing is already part of the rule, even if unwritten. In that light, I get how looking for a football move is a reasonable test for officials. I wouldn’t say enforcing two tenths of a second is impossible any more than trying to observe a football move. It is impossible to enforce perfectly accurately all the time. There will mostly be clear-cut cases though and guys do their best for close calls, possibly relying on football moves when there is ambiguity. Once we are doing a replay though, we can easily enforce a timed rule properly.

Perhaps if they would say that “football move” is the criteria for catches below a certain duration? Maybe that would satisfy me. My other pet peeves are related to the fumble-pile-possession crap and the coarse resolution in officials spotting balls and then the glorious “measurement” display of utterly fake precision. I get that the game cant be perfectly accurate all the time, but I would prefer that this be acknowledged, with the conversation being about how to do as best we can given the circumstances. Instead we get to pretend like we are using good and reliable methods when we aren’t.

by michaelfox99 on Nov 16, 2010 6:22 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm definitely not convinced it wasn't a fumble.

Didn’t the official say it was overturned because it popped out before he had both feet on the ground? His feet were so down.

by jacobstevens on Nov 15, 2010 11:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah that was weird.

The broadcasters then totally ignored what the officials said about his feet because they were too proud to admit they were all wrong about that “bang bang” crap. Although maybe that is the criteria the officials should have been using, hard to tell.

by michaelfox99 on Nov 16, 2010 6:24 AM PST up reply actions  

I thought it was a catch and fumble

If the opposition got that call (although it was close), people would be incensed around here. shrug

by IslandHawk on Nov 16, 2010 8:17 AM PST up reply actions  

I wanna know why they only showed the angle from the end zone once.

He was clearly out from that shot, and then they just kept replaying the questionable angle. If I want to watch blatantly rigged games I’ll watch basketball.

And a limit of two/three challenges is BS when refs blow anywhere from 10-20 calls a game.

by hazbro24 on Nov 15, 2010 4:59 PM PST reply actions  

I just want to reiterate my hatred of this whole "indisputable" thing on challenges.

Challenges are pretty much useless, or at least a hell of a lot more useless than we think. It’s all great that the challenge allows the officials a second look at what happened on the field, but since the evidence in the replay must be “indisputable” it means that almost no challenge goes overturned.

Virtually every play that goes challenged is already a tough call. That’s fine. But I think this really gives the ref’s too much leeway to screw up the call in the first place… “meh, it kinda looked one way, so I’ll just call it out of bounds and see if the coach checks the replay”. Since it’s already a tough call, and replays very frequently don’t give us the right angle anyhow, it’s almost impossible to get enough evidence to overturn the call.

We end up basically with the same results as before, but have to deal with a big long delay that slows down the game AND gives the ref’s (who are constantly missing calls) a free pass. “Hey, we checked the replay, too bad if it’s not good enough to overturn the call”.

As soon as I saw Fitz come down with the ball I was like “wow, that was close, but it clearly looks to me like he was out”. The ref was right there and ruled it a catch… why? What did he see that I didn’t? The video evidence certainly didn’t support him, so why call it a catch in the first place?

What makes this whole situation even more ridiculous is the matter of losing your third challenge if you get one of the first two wrong. OK, so the ref completely fucks up a call and you challenge it, but the video evidence sucks, that’s your fault? So when the ref pulls an even BIGGER bone out of his pocket on the final drive of the game, it’s YOUR problem?

Stupid. This isn’t about the NFL making the game better, it’s about the NFL covering the asses of it’s part-time ref’s, some of whom clearly shouldn’t be anywhere close to a field.

OK, rant over.

by djafrot on Nov 15, 2010 6:04 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

Calls are overturned plenty.

see the BMW catch+fumble.

I think you go a bit far here. When I saw the play I thought it was too close to call. It wasn’t even perfectly clear from the replay. Give me a bunch of calls like that to make and I doubt I would get too many right.

You make a good point about teams getting screwed just because the video is bad. This is partly on the teams though. They showed a replay of the Fitz catch right after the play and before the challenge and my immediate reaction was: 1) looks way too close for them to overturn 2) don’t waste a challenge this early, plenty of time for the refs to even things out by giving us the next close call. Our video guys needed to see that it wasn’t gonna be overturned and advise PC against the challenge. This one happened to be pretty darn close, but still.

You should have challenges until you lose two. Either that or officials should not take away a challenge when the video is inconclusive.

by michaelfox99 on Nov 16, 2010 6:35 AM PST up reply actions  

Interesting thought

What if they didn’t take away a challenge if the video was inconclusive? That’s intriguing to me. Of course, it opens up a can of worms about the subjectivity of the video review process anyway, but I don’t think it grants or subtracts any intrinsic advantage or disadvantage that’s not already present in the process.

I really wish the NFL would get off the “don’t want to slow down the game defense” and start just admitting that the officiating has been pretty shoddy at times the last few seasons.

by Kingdomer on Nov 16, 2010 7:09 AM PST up reply actions  

The problem is that "our video guys" don't have the same feeds.

At least, I don’t think so. They’re going off seeing it live, or on TV, and if you’re relying on FOX’s replay ability you’re in trouble.

Either way, this still puts the onus on the teams rather than the ref’s, and that’s not the point of replay. Instant Replay is supposed to act as a way for the ref’s to correct themselves, but as it is now it’s just another way for them to screw up and for the various teams to look bad in trying to fix it.

I’m not saying we should get rid of instant replay. I’m saying we should ditch this “indisputable” crap. If the ref looks at the footage and thinks that there’s a 60% chance he was wrong, call it that way.

Of course, there are probably reasons for this, but I can’t think of them myself.

by djafrot on Nov 16, 2010 10:38 AM PST up reply actions  

I have no idea HOW I'm the first rec on this. Great rant, and very true.

"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey

by Tyler Jorgensen on Nov 16, 2010 12:02 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm definitely with you.

Mostly because a very strong factor in the, uh, window where a call may stand only because there’s not indisputable evidence — a strong factor in how wide that window remains open is to preserve the authority of the officials. With instant replay the league was concerned about undermining the authority of the officials and the confidence in their officiating.

Which is a perfectly legitimate concern. But I do think before & since instant replay and coaching challenges, ref hate ran strong through all sports fanship, and while confidence might never have been high, their authority seems safely protected.

I don’t know if legal verbiage or anything ought to be changed, but I would prefer an approach where the objective is the get the call right, to correct the call to make it right, whenever you can, rather than the paramount objective being preserving authority and allowing for call corrections when the mistakes are more obvious.

But hell, there will always be some super tricky gray area to navigate, and I have to hand it to them, they do their best and I know it’s far better than what I could do.

by jacobstevens on Nov 16, 2010 2:28 PM PST up reply actions  

I have always thought challenges were just another way for the league to affect the outcome of games.

It seems to me that certain teams always seem to get the call on the field. Then when it is challenged unless the evidence is indisputable the call stands.. For the Hawks it always seems to be the opposite.
Of course this is all based on zero evidence.

by nickfru1 on Nov 15, 2010 6:27 PM PST reply actions  

I loved the recent Mike Tanier article that touched on this:
Ben Roethlisberger comes within a yard of the end zone with the ball in his general vicinity. It’s conference time. The zebras gather. What did you see? What did you see? What does the rulebook say? Does anyone have one?

by jacobstevens on Nov 16, 2010 2:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Another thing. Is the NFL broke?

Screw the camera crews. For about $1500 I can rig up stationary cams on the goal lines and side lines that can pick up any play. For a bit more the cameras can track the action. Direct feed to the booth with extra “definitive” camera angles

by hazbro24 on Nov 16, 2010 6:07 PM PST reply actions  

I was freaking about the false start...

That was not called. It looked like the TE (Spach?) was rolling back on his heels significantly before the snap. Both ’Hawks on the Defensive right were pointing at him and looking to the ref, like “seriously?? call it already!”

And I think that was why Carroll was chewing out the ref. I think he was saying something like “2 guys in position to make that call, and neither ****ing one saw it? You are gonna get an earful from the league office on that one.”

by PerryCollective on Nov 17, 2010 10:15 PM PST reply actions  

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