5 and 4
DVOA and efficiency ranking work largely the same way. Both metrics evaluate each play for value. So a poor DVOA or efficiency ranking means that the total value of plays, adjusted for quality of opponent (which is tricky), is negative. That is how a team like Seattle, with five wins and four losses, can rank so poorly. Many of the good plays have come against weak opponents. In games Seattle has lost, bad plays haven't just outnumbered good plays, they have dwarfed the number of good plays.
To think of it another way, if we consider yards as points in an abstract sense, that is, yards as a tangible symbol of something won or lost, and difference in yardage gained as a measure of how close a game was, the Seahawks have squeaked out a few wins and suffered some absolutely crushing losses.
San Francisco: -21
At Denver: -30
San Diego: -247
St. Louis: -92
At Chicago: +46
Arizona: +75
At Oakland: -381
New York: -325
At Arizona: +163
That ignores special teams, which is particularly relevant to Seattle's win against the Chargers. Special teams performance isn't particularly consistent, but what's more important when evaluating the game against San Diego is that two Seahawks drives were replaced by touchdown returns. Add those returns in and Seattle closes to within 47 yards of San Diego.
That is very bare bones way of looking at how Seattle performed against its opponents. Advanced metrics work from that data, included game situation, first down, turnovers and touchdowns and then adjust for quality of opponent. But you can see, even just stripping it down to yards gained and yards allowed, Seattle has been rocked quite a few times this season.
What I wanted to do in this post is try to provide anecdotal context to the Seahawks record. Metrics flush out and contextualize simple statistics, and we can do that too, if in a less formalized manner.
Seahawks 31 - 49ers 6
This is still among the very best wins of the year for Seattle. San Francisco pulled ahead 6-0 but then Seattle scored 31 unanswered. The Seahawks had two interceptions, one returned for a touchdown and another that led to a touchdown one offensive play later.
The most important context to this game is that Alex Smith was starting. San Francisco would go on to start 1-6 with Smith under center, including an embarrassing loss to Carolina. Smith is probably done as a starter. He will go down as one of the bigger and more protracted busts in NFL history.
The other thing I would mention is that San Francisco was starting two rookies on their offensive line. Neither Mike Iupati nor Anthony Davis performed particularly well.
Broncos 31 - Seahawks 14
This still stands as possibly the worst loss of the season. Denver is now 3-6 and has been outscored by opponents 203 to 252.
Apart from the Broncos ensuing struggles, the most important context of this game is the way the game itself unfolded. Seattle closed within three scores late in the fourth quarter, but that garbage time drive masks a very dominant outing by the Broncos. Denver was up 17-0 through the first half and stretched that lead to 31-7 in the fourth quarter. Denver didn't pull Kyle Orton, but they did throttle off late. Sometimes a 31-14 outcome is a relatively close game that gets away late. This was a blowout that lost some of its luster when Matt Hasselbeck picked down the field and finally capped a scoring drive with a 20 yard touchdown rush.
If you remember week 4 from 2009, in which Seattle lost to Indianapolis 34-17, but Seneca Wallace finished the day 33 for 45 for 257 and touchdown, that was what this game felt like.
Seahawks 27 - Chargers 20
This was a pretty close game that didn't feel too close until Philip Rivers flipped his "unstoppable" switch in the fourth quarter. The Chargers are 4-5 but have outscored opponents 239-197.
First thing to note is the absence of Marcus McNeill. Chris Clemons wore out Brandyn Dombrowski. Dombrowski just isn't a starting caliber left tackle in the NFL. McNeill is a multiple Pro Bowl selection.
We should also recognize that this was a matchup of and won by the league's best special teams against the league's worst. The Chargers are still hovering in the realm of historically awful. It's not that special teams is not hugely important to a game's outcome, but it is prone to tiny sample sizes and thus mercurial.
Seattle played from ahead for about 40 minutes of regulation and never played from behind. In the final two minutes of the game, the Chargers marched within the Seahawks 17 before Earl Thomas ended the game with an interception. It was thrilling and hard won, but won on the back of special teams, and almost given away.
Rams 20 - Seahawks 3
This loss was about on par with the beatdown handed out by the Raiders. Both Oakland and St. Louis hosted, both are bottom quartile teams, and both smothered more than blew out the Seahawks.
Seattle fell behind early against both St. Louis and Oakland and the offense showed no ability whatsoever to recover. Both opponents feature weak offenses spearheaded by their rushing attack and so-so 4-3 defenses with young and pretty good defensive lines. Both opponents tore through the Seahawks offensive line.
Where the two games diverge is that Seattle was close to full strength on defense against St. Louis, and that allowed Seattle to contain Steven Jackson. It wasn't so stout against Darren McFadden. And where the Rams dominated but coasted through the second half for an easy victory, the Raiders dominated and then exploded in part because of some lucky bounces. The quality of the Seahawks team that took the field was different, and the final score was different, but otherwise these were two very similar losses.
Bad losses.
Bears 20 - Seahawks 23
The Bears are now 7-3, amazingly enough, and have outscored opponents 175-146.
This is right up there with the week one win against the 49ers as the single best game the Seahawks have played. They beat a quality opponent on the road, didn't dominate, but did win in more lopsided fashion than the score would imply. Devin Hester scored a return touchdown with only 2:14 left on the play clock. Chicago's win probability hardly budged.
This game featured a healthy Russell Okung. That allowed Seattle to shutdown the Bears best defender, best player, and probably the very best 4-3 end in football: Julius Peppers. Winning that matchup was integral to winning this game, and had Okung not been healthy, I think Seattle would have lost and quite possibly in blowout fashion.
The other important context is just how much of Seattle's pass rush was accomplished through scheme. Pete Carroll, Gus Bradley and Dan Quinn tore through Mike Martz's moldy old scheme with defensive back blitzes of all shape and character. It wasn't a one-trick pony, but it also may never be that effective again. Jay Cutler was returning from a concussion suffered against the Giants, in a game that Cutler had more sacks (9) than completions (8). He looked panicked and lost, and Martz looker powerless to help him.
Seahawks 22 - Cardinals 10
The Cardinals are among the three worst teams in football, and were particularly bad this game because they were starting rookie Max Hall. Hall was a motivational tactic playing under center. That's the most important context. Derek Anderson is among the worst quarterbacks in the NFL, but Max Hall is almost anomalously bad.
Hall finished 4 of 16 for 36 yards and an interception.
Other than that, the other important context is that Seattle's run defense was beginning to crumble. Arizona was successful on 60% of their rush attempts.
Raiders 33 - Seahawks 3
(See Rams 20 - Seahawks 3)
Seahawks 7 - Giants 41
New York is one of the best teams in football, but last week's loss to Dallas grounded them a bit. The Cowboys are no longer a good team, and as far as I know there is no evidence that a team performs particularly well following the firing of their head coach.
The context here is minor and major. The minor context is that Seattle was starting Charlie Whitehurst. People want to blow up the significance of this, and Whitehurst was indeed bad, but there's no way to know how Hasselbeck would have performed in the same situation, and, more importantly, the defense was not particularly handicapped by Whitehurst's play. This was a representative loss, and a blowout one.
The major context is how, like Philadelphia's blowout win over the Redskins last Monday, this game was not nearly as close as the final score would imply. It was over midway through the first quarter and way, way out of reach by the second quarter. I don't think efficiency rating or DVOA account for how winners can coast in blowouts, but it's safe to say the Giants could have probably won by 50 points if point differential counted in the standings.
Cardinals 18 - Seahawks 36
That leaves us with this, which I think I've talked about enough this week. Seattle won pretty convincingly but it took until late in the third quarter for the Seahawks to put it away. Nevertheless, a convincing win on the road even if against a truly bad team is one of the better moments so far in the 2010 season.
Which dovetails into the point of this post.
Seattle has beat the Cardinals twice, and the Cardinals are a terrible team. One win was heavily aided by Arizona starting Max Hall. The Seahawks beat the 49ers at home, and the 49ers are a bad team that at that time was starting Alex Smith.
The Seahawks have two good wins. One led by the special teams against the Chargers. The Chargers have fielded historically bad special teams units. San Diego was still very close to tying the game late in the fourth quarter. The win against the Bears is probably the single best win of the season. Chicago hasn't collapsed. It's a mediocre to good team. Seattle won a critical matchup, but won it because of a player that's missed most of the season due to injury. That implies some hidden potential.
The Seahawks have four bad losses. Denver and New York put the game away long before the fourth quarter. Both of those losses were blowouts that were actually much more lopsided than the final score would suggest. St. Louis and Oakland didn't absolutely run away from the Seahawks like Denver and New York did, but both teams are bad and both teams dominated the Seahawks offense. Neither game was close. All four losses were one-sided with point differentials ranging from three scores to five.
That is why that, though the Seahawks have a winning record and are on top of the NFC West, they are not a good team -- yet. The wins have qualifiers and the losses have been almost too brutal to watch. Measuring by downs won or lost, Seattle is way down. That doesn't mean Seattle is doomed to be a bad team. Okung can return. Brandon Mebane is back. Jeremy Bates seems ready to admit that Matt Hasselbeck does not thrive in an offense defined by a moving pocket, long passes and limited reads. It does mean that though Seattle is a winning team, and though Seattle has the inside track to the NFC West crown, the Seahawks are still a bad team ...
Maybe on their way up.
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One thing
Chicago is 7-3, not 6-3. The Bears beat the Dolphins 16-0 last night in a game to forget.
I feel like this is not a good team but they’re not nearly as bad as ‘08 and ’09. Carroll is doing well considering the lack of great talents on our squad (right now I don’t think there is one Seahawks player that could have first round or second round value in the trade market).
Michael Robinson leads the Seahawks in completion percentage, yards-per-attempt, and QB rating.
Well, compared to the past couple years, you have to factor in the Cardinals
If they still had Warner like last year, I think there’s a good possibility we lose at least one of those, maybe both. Which puts us at 4-5 or 3-6
by B.B.Finnegan on Nov 19, 2010 6:39 PM PST up reply actions
Every team we've beaten sans Rivers has a mediocre-to-horrible QB
And right now I consider Cutler mediocre.
Carolina is probably the last team on our schedule with a god awful QB situation and Clausen just got benched yet again for some guy named Brian St. Pierre.
Michael Robinson leads the Seahawks in completion percentage, yards-per-attempt, and QB rating.
Wow. I might not be able to recognize a single player on Carolina's offense.
Michael Robinson leads the Seahawks in completion percentage, yards-per-attempt, and QB rating.
But JONATHAN STEW---wait, he's injured too.
Yikes, the Panthers are a mess. They may actually overtake Buffalo for the #1 pick.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Jeramiah Johnson
He was signed by Caroina this week. Jonathan Stewart and JJ in the same backfield again.
BMW17 Comeback Player of the Year and future Probowl Mainstay
I would call Matt Cassell and Troy Smith mediocre.
And Sam Bradford still has a ways to go and that game is here. Even Freeman isn’t that great yet but that game’s there. Hey everybody, it’s 2007!
by Hopefulmsfan on Nov 19, 2010 11:14 PM PST up reply actions
And a car is a car but a Yugo is not a BMW.
by John Morgan on Nov 19, 2010 7:10 PM PST up reply actions 7 recs
Although I prefer Japanese cars, I do not disgaree.
In my own defense, however, nobody knew what to expect this year. You know better than any of us how up and down it’s been this year.
That being said, for us to be 5 and 4 at this point in the season, I will take.
Expect
The Hawks to fall to 5-5 after the play the Saints. Let’s just hope the Rams fall to Atlanta. I think the following week will determine if the Hawks will win the division or not.
If St. Louis can beat Atlanta
I think the division is theirs.
Michael Robinson leads the Seahawks in completion percentage, yards-per-attempt, and QB rating.
As long as we're (at worst) a game behind the Rams going into Week 17, the division is ours
I’ll be cautiously optimistic up until then.
Yes! Thank you! I was kinda hoping for this!
If we tie for the division, then the division champ is determined by overall wins, then head-to-head, then record inside the division, then outside the division, then outside the conference (no fuckin’ way we tie in overall, tête à tête, division, conference, & league wins).
Man, it’s perfectly possible it comes down to week 17. And if it does come down to that game at Qwest, then hole-ee-sheeit, it’s gonna be epic! It’s kinda what the rivalry needed.
by jubelthebear on Nov 20, 2010 10:55 AM PST up reply actions
Pardon my laziness in not looking this up for myself...
But where are we in relationship to the Rams as far as divisional record? Our only divisional loss have been to the Rams, correct? How many divisional games have they lost?
They've lost
2 and played 3. But they have to play SF at home, AZ away and the Seahawks at Qwest. We have to play SF away and them at Qwest.
by jubelthebear on Nov 20, 2010 7:54 PM PST up reply actions
That means we own the tiebreaker!
Because if we beat the Rams in Week 17 (but finish with the same record), we’ll have a better divisional record no matter what happens in any and all previous games.
I've wondered about this for a while but since I'm lazy I never bother to look into it.
What stats do football fans use to judge their team? Should stats be even brought up? Each week a bad football team can beat a good football team. Football only has 16 regular season games and the sample size seems so small.
Should you judge a team based on their projected stats or talent evaluation?
Eat shit bum!
Point differential is a decent catch all
And the length of the season is one reason that record is a poor indicator of team quality. Within those 16 games are hundreds of plays, and evaluating every play individually makes for a much more robust sample. That is how DVOA and ER work.
Talent is slippery. If we could somehow have a reliable indicator of talent, adjusted for health, and know how that talent performs within a team’s scheme, that might be the best model for projection, but that’s impossible. I mean, utterly impossible.
And all of this assumes that past performance is an indicator of future performance
Football is just a messy, messy sport to model.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Nov 19, 2010 7:13 PM PST up reply actions
For instance
you can’t predict acute injury and the loss of single players (Mebane, Okung, Tatupu, etc) can have a significant effect on the outcome of the game.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Nov 19, 2010 7:19 PM PST up reply actions
Two words: Mebane, Okung.
With them, the Seahawks are a mediocre-to-halfway-good team. Without them, terrible.
Wait- You don't buy in to Michael Lombardi's ground breaking theory of the BlueChip players?
Talent evaluation – done and done. Either you are a blue chip player or you are not.
The "blue chipper" stats are subjective and useless.
God, it’s almost like he’s just pulling names out of a hat. I can’t wait o see how poorly his preseason “rankings” hold up after everything is said and done.
Getting caught up in stats
Saw this from Bill Belichick the other day, “Stats are for losers,” Belichick said. “The final score is for winners.”
http://www.nesn.com/2009/12/bill-belichick-stats-are-for-losers.html
The science of assigning a numerical value to all human endeavor, ambition and dream
Dude probably said it just because he knew it would piss someone off.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Nov 20, 2010 8:37 PM PST up reply actions
I will say this at this point. Reality aside, how great is it that we are even having this conversation right now?
I would much rather rebuild this team while establishing a culture of winning than play to the level of the talent on the team. This front office and coaching staff have drastically changed the outlook of this teams future. We can all see that this current roster has no business being a .500 team (regardless of schedule) yet some how they have gotten the players to believe they can be contenders.
Agreed.
And watching us win is defeinitely more entertaining than watching us lose, regardless of the true potential of the team.
by Hopefulmsfan on Nov 19, 2010 11:16 PM PST up reply actions
The Broncos Loss stands out for me...
because it felt like the Seahawks won the battle on both lines of scrimmage. That probably hadn’t happened…ever under Holmy. I wasn’t thrilled about the loss, but it just sort of seemed like the ’Hawks were out of sync, and the Broncos maybe just had a better game plan.
As for Bates vs. Knapp, it’s hard for me to put into words, but I never liked Knapp because he seemed to constantly be trying to call “cute” plays – that would win on the basis of the play call alone – whereas the Bates playbook, while similar in makeup, seems much more geared to get playmakers in space, exploit weaknesses, leverage strengths. Another difference is that with Knapp, it seemed a little too anti-Holmgren. Holmy had the same plays, and like you mentioned, relied on reads and execution. Knapp didn’t run things often enough to get any kind of consistent execution or competency.
Bates seems like a refreshing balance between the two. I can see them repeating certain plays to Williams, working on some Forsett draws and cutbacks, and while they aren’t always situationally successful, they are building a foundation. In addition, there’s enough variety, willingness to try new stuff, that they don’t seem very predictable, especially given their liabilities on the OL and Matt’s liabilities as a passer.
by PerryCollective on Nov 19, 2010 9:14 PM PST reply actions
I was at Denver for that game, and I disagree that we were blown out/dominated.
While the game sucked, it sucked for different reasons than, for example, the Giants game.
We were overwhelmed in the NY game, and couldn’t compete with a superior team. Against the Broncos two Red Zone Int’s flipped points away from us after moving the ball to the red zone both times, and it felt like we could still win at half, and even into the 2nd half, if we could just tie successes together and get a stop or two.
What’s more, a crappy call on a PI in the 3rd quarter felt like it took the wind right out of our sails, and if that wouldn’t have happened things might have played out different.
I don’t know, just seemed more winnable than some of our other losses…
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Nov 20, 2010 1:35 PM PST up reply actions
I think you are violently agreeing
PerryC says “the Seahawks won the battle on both lines of scrimmage”
The Broncos game was definitely winnable. They took advantage of a couple bad plays, and got one big bad call. In a fairly even game, a few big plays make all the difference.
Heheh.
I was disagreeing with John’s original statement, adding to PerryC’s similar perspective.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Nov 20, 2010 9:06 PM PST up reply actions
Personel groupings post
Did I miss the personel groupings post or have we not had one this week. You know, the one that said that Charlie did not get sacked last week because they kept extra blockers in on most pass plays. But had not said anything about extra blockers in any of the previos posts.
BMW17 Comeback Player of the Year and future Probowl Mainstay
You can find all of those on either
sea.scout.net
or at
http://blog.thenewstribune.com/seahawks/
(this week’s one is here: http://blog.thenewstribune.com/seahawks/2010/11/15/personnel-review-week-9-vs-arizona/)
They’re all written by Brian McIntyre, who’s a pretty straight shooter.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Nov 20, 2010 9:52 AM PST up reply actions
Great article
Let’s get to the point.
This year is a rebuilding year. The entire team apart from the QB at center is essentially new. Yet, we have a winning record! Superior coaching, an savvy yet equally frustrating qb, and a whole lot of hard work has resulted in mostly productive year.
It’s scary to think midway through the season. We are putting things together. Our oline should look alot better with a fresh talent in Okung. An amped up running game will go along way this season. Oh man this is some exciting times.
Thanks for maintaining perspective, John
But I think we need to give a little credit to the coaching staff. Yes, we haven’t been winning against “world-beater” teams. But I go back to what you pointed out in September – many of the guys starting on the team this year couldn’t even make the roster on other teams (paraphrasing).
Yet as Big E-Z points out, somehow the coaching staff has these guys playing “never say die” football, and it is encouraging to see.
I’ll take winning during rebuilding anytime, as long as it is kept in perspective and the team continues to look to build talent through the draft and smart moves to bring in vets (it wasn’t that long ago that folks were questioning the BMW and Milloy moves).
by largent's revenge hit on Nov 20, 2010 12:15 AM PST reply actions
Really good article
thanks for writing this up, John.

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