Fourth and Forever
Seattle took a high-risk gamble early. I like Jeremy Bates. He's young and I'd rather he be radical and learn than conservative and prematurely gun shy. Plays like this don't help his case, whoever is truly at fault. People double down their resentment towards unorthodox failure. It's the same reason some coaches and fans simply cannot stand trick plays. The play doesn't just fail, it fails in awkward and embarrassing fashion.
Speaking of which:
4-1-KC 39 (9:45) 8-M.Hasselbeck pass incomplete short left to 81-G.Tate (39-B.Carr).
It's fourth and a little more than half a foot. About two thirds the length of the ball. Any kind of push by the offensive line should award them the first. That's how football is officiated, especially for the home team. Seattle is bad in power situations, ranked 31st and converting only 42% of attempts. Kansas City is ranked 12th at defending power runs, preventing a conversion on 58% of attempts.
So, it's short enough that a run makes sense. Seattle is bad enough at running on short yardage and KC is good enough at defending short yardage, that maybe a run doesn't make sense. But if Seattle doesn't think it can convert less than a foot by running the ball, does it really make sense to pass? It would be a 57 yard field goal towards the closed end of Qwest Field. Olindo Mare's career long is 54 yards and like most kickers he is below 50% on attempts over 50 yards.
So you can't kick, you can't punt, or at least there's little reason to punt, you can't rush it up the middle, or you can but it's bad matchup, and so you pass? I guess.
But maybe not a fade route to Golden Tate.
KC sets with four down lineman and all their muscle concentrated towards the center. It's actually a 4-2, which should probably clue Seattle in that the Chiefs are anticipating pass.Looking at this, I wonder why the Seahawks didn't audible to an off-tackle run behind Russell Okung.
Well they don't. Ben Obomanu motions right. Javier Arenas passes coverage to Jackie Bates. Brandon Carr is on Golden Tate. Arenas is on John Carlson. Eric Berry is on Chris Baker. Bates is on Obomanu, with the deep safety shaded right.
Hasselbeck takes the snap and looks left. He could probably pepper it in to Carlson. That looks like the best decision, but he's pretty locked on to Tate. He throws the fade, and it's not really a bad pass, but Carr wins position and Tate is forced into attempting something only Mike Williams and a handful of other receivers can do consistently: catch a pass over and in front of a defender.
He doesn't. Tate just doesn't have the reach. And the Seahawks turn the ball over on downs.
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Yeah it looked like he could have squeezed it into Carlson
although that throw did have pick six potential. The amazing thing about the throw to Tate is that he almost comes down with it. I continue to be impressed with how close Tate comes to winning every jump ball situation.
As I said in the previous post, if you’re going pass on 4th down it should be via play action.
Matt Hasselbeck hit a narrow window?
I’d rather depend on an 8 year old with a baseball.
(Sorry again, Grandma… RIP.)
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Nov 30, 2010 3:42 PM PST reply actions
I don't have a problem with the playcall.
I have heard that Carroll said Tate was the 2nd read. I didn’t catch that. I just know that it didn’t bother me. If they were going to pass, that was fine.
I just thought they should have run. I know the reasoning. I understand. We can’t run. I feel we’ve passed in power a half dozen times already, and I wanted to see a run.
I don’t think I’m second guessing, though. I understand the scenario. They tried something and it didn’t work, and the problem is we can’t run. The problem is our best WR is injured. Our problem is other things that I don’t feel like getting into. Our problem is the Chiefs were much better than we were. So a play didn’t work. Who’s shocked?
I have a problem with our fades and jump balls going to Tate and Butler (our least experienced receivers)
Tate has been able to get a couple but that’s a small sample size. He’s got great timing on his jump, no doubt about that.
I’m sick of seeing Butler thrown to deep unless he is 100% wide open.
I suffer from IBS, otherwise known as "Influx of Billick Syndrome".
Yes, I am pretty disappointed with Butler this year.
But damn do I love me some BMFW and Obama-knew.
If Butler doesn't develop then that's the nail in the coffin for Ruskell's offensive talent knowledge.
I suffer from IBS, otherwise known as "Influx of Billick Syndrome".
especially
since we gave up like 3 picks to move up and take butler.
Hang on...
I’m working on a Mack Strong clone….
by skwid206 on Nov 30, 2010 3:56 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
you have a cloner?
Is it the same one Frylock cloned televisions and money with?
Sports and Bremertonians. Because we can.
We have one in Robinson
He’s been injured the past few games but is looking to come back next week.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Nov 30, 2010 4:45 PM PST up reply actions
I really like what I've seen from him this season.
It will be nice to be able to keep Carlson on the line, and running routes, after he gets back.
And yet they didn't bring in a backup FB even though Robinson has been injured.
The Seahawks make a minimum of three roster moves a week, but didn’t bother with FB.
That's true
I wonder why that is.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Dec 1, 2010 4:39 PM PST up reply actions
With our luck Marshawn would've tripped, landed on Russell's ankle and fallen short of the first down.
I suffer from IBS, otherwise known as "Influx of Billick Syndrome".
Well, he's getting blamed already...
But honestly, I have rarely if ever bitched about his audibles, that’s one of the few things I think he still possesses to rank among the league’s better signal callers.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Nov 30, 2010 5:32 PM PST up reply actions
I was starting at the TV as the D was lining up, and thinking exactly that.
This was a scenario tailor-made for the kind of thing Hass does really well… audible out of pass plays and into a run against a hole in the defense.
I understand if Bates & co. are trying to mix things up, but when the defense gifts you a big space like that, hand off the damned ball. I don’t care how bad your line is, All Okung has to do is crack in and help the OG and Lynch is left to pretty much fall forward.
Like someone said below… this was an ominous sign.
I yelled at my tv after that and got that sinking feeling that this game was over.
And its funny because I also wondered why they didn’t audible a run behind the left too. There was a lot of green to be had on that side from what I remember.
7 picks for 7 quarterbacks in Draft 2011! EFF IT!
by Seatown_Sport_Head321 on Nov 30, 2010 4:48 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Tell me about it. Sunk $315 on tickets for that game.
Shocked I wasn’t kicked out of the stadium. To say I was furious during the game is a vast understatement.
"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM
http://seahawksblog.wordpress.com
First game I'd seen live since the Giants game in the SB year.
Can’t believe how different and less enjoyable the atmosphere is, kinda a bummer.
Random ticket price note— my buddy’s girlfriend dropped an airplane shot bottle and got escorted out just before game time. They went down to the street and bought two new tickets for 30 bucks, turned out there were better seats.
That wouldn’t have happened in 05…
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Nov 30, 2010 5:35 PM PST up reply actions
personnel
It’s kind of shocking that the Chiefs were in a pass defense package for a 4th and inches play. Was it something about the Seahawks’ package that tipped them off? I wouldn’t think that 2 WR 2 TE screams pass, but it’s not a complete run package either. I guess it’s more likely that the Chiefs were aware of the fact that the Seahawks suck at short yardage and would be unlikely to run. They gambled correctly. The attraction of a pass in this down and distance is that it’s unexpected, except that it wasn’t here.
Others have commented on the impact of not having a fullback on this kind of play, and I think that makes some sense. In retrospect, maybe it wasn’t the best move just to go without a fullback after Robinson was injured. Fullbacks are not in vogue in today’s NFL, but maybe they do fulfill a purpose.
Haven't we lined up Lynch at FB before with Force as the RB out of the I-Formation?
I’d use that.
I suffer from IBS, otherwise known as "Influx of Billick Syndrome".
I think we did it in the Arizona game actually
I suffer from IBS, otherwise known as "Influx of Billick Syndrome".
I didn't get to see either of those games
Was he effective at it? I would think that he could be a serviceable fullback in some situations, but I don’t think I would have wanted him to try to mow down a d-lineman on this 4th and inches play.
by Jackrabbit5683 on Dec 1, 2010 7:39 AM PST up reply actions
I really hope Carlson gets his groove back this week...
with Michael Robinson coming back, the Hawks should use him more in the passing game. He is so essential to the offense.
I think MRob is the more essential of the two
but would really be excited to see some solid production from the TE position again.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Nov 30, 2010 6:53 PM PST up reply actions
Sigh. There was a time we thought Carlson was going to be the second coming of Antonio Gates
How the mighty have fallen…
Carlson was going to turn into a gigantic, preternaturally athletic former basketball player?
Until I see Carlson himself struggle, I’m not going to fault him for being stuck playing fullback on a broken offense.
I thought Carlson could turn into Heath Miller, and I think that’s still possible.
Carlson has struggled as a receiver, including a few unexpected and untimely drops
Sorry the hyperbole wasn’t more obvious (the messianic reference was supposed to be a clue), however — you are correct. Clearly Carlson isn’t going to turn into Gates or Vernon Davis any time in his career.
Nevertheless, it is unclear and, perhaps unlikely whether he will fulfill expectations of becoming a top-10 or ProBowl TE at this point, although it is certainly possible that he could return to his earlier form/career trajectory with a better QB and less dysfunctional offense. I am not trying to throw him under the bus; I still think he is one of our better young players, but I have lowered my expectations about him.
BTW, Carlson is a large, athletic former basketball player, according to Wikipedia, anyway
As a basketball player, Carlson was voted to the preseason McDonald’s All-American list. During his senior year, John Carlson managed to shatter three backboards. Carlson was also an all-state tennis player. His dad is also the basketball and tennis coach for the Litchfield Dragons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Carlson_(American_football)
News to me as well…
He even played in a basketball game for Notre Dame I think
Although it was an exhibition game if I remember correctly
by Jackrabbit5683 on Dec 1, 2010 7:36 AM PST up reply actions
That play pissed me off more than any other from the game.
It appeared to me to be a mid-range pass, though the description above says ‘short’. Regardless, it looked like a low-percentage playcall and it was terrible to watch. May as well run the FB draw…
...
Hasselbeck pepper it to Carlson
HA HA you made a funny
BMW17 Comeback Player of the Year and future Probowl Mainstay
Ok I don't understand all of the stats and dvoa numbers and crap
but am I the only one that sees Lunch fighting his ass off for 4 or 5 yards on a couple of runs early, get stuffed once or twice and then the play calling goes almost all pass all the time? It seems that we give up on the run far too early, the Defense gets worn the fuck out by the end of the third quarter and then have final scores like the Chiefs game.
Why not force the run, especially early?
John Hancock
Nope, I see that too.
Does Bates script his plays?
I think the first 15-20 plays are scripted
This is common in the NFL. Its thought to make the play-calling less predictable and driven by emotion.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Dec 1, 2010 10:37 AM PST up reply actions
It's hard not to abandon the run when you run 12 times and yield 20 yards.
There’s no essential good to grinding yourself into third and long over and over again.
I agree. Which is also an indictment against the ZB scheme for us, no?
If the hope is the D-line heavies are so tired from getting back up off the ground all game, then you pretty much need to run a lot earlier to get to that stage.
If you don’t have success early, and you abandon the run (especially when your defense is swiss cheeze), then it seems that the ZB is a poor way to go.
Denver certainly had success with it historically though. Dunno… Sure wish I was a fly on the wall when we lost the Godfather of ZB early this season in regards to the motivations, prospects, etc…

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