How To Misrepresent Facts and Pander: Blame Charlie
Charlie Whitehurst played poorly yesterday and we all knew someone would seize the opportunity to twist Whitehurst's struggles into a defense of Matt Hasselbeck. I think sometimes fans make the best team analysts because fans actually watch the game, instead of working retroactively to fit information to their predetermined story. Jerry Brewer did the latter, and so I might as well audit this piece for truth.
Charlie Whitehurst couldn't even muster enthusiasm for the one thing he did right.
He threw his first NFL touchdown pass in the fourth quarter, but the score was already 41-0 by then. It was a nice 36-yard toss to Ben Obomanu — smooth, easy — but the Qwest Field crowd was sparse and disinterested by then. Afterward, the longhaired Seahawks quarterback shrugged at the memory.
"It made it a little bit better, I guess," Whitehurst said. "But it was a disappointing day for us. I was disappointed in the way that I played."
I love the framing on this. First, we establish right away that Whitehurst did exactly one thing right all game. Nevermind the four first downs he converted, or the passes of 17 and 22 yards, or the touchdown strike Mike Williams bobbled into an interception, Whitehurst only did one thing right and he wasn't enthusiastic about it.
Which is a classic trap. How is a player supposed to act after his team is beat down 41 to 7? Should Whitehurst thump his chest and talk about that bomb he threw to Ben Obomanu? Of course not. But Brewer frames it like not only did Whitehurst fail utterly, but that he has a bad attitude about his failure too. Damned either way.
No more pining for Matt Hasselbeck's backup anymore, OK?
You saw him Sunday, and though Whitehurst wasn't the primary reason the New York Giants thrashed the Seahawks 41-7, he did show why it took him five seasons to throw an NFL pass.
If one game is the measure of a player, then we could just as easily conclude that Hasselbeck showed in Oakland why he's completely washed up. If that's the logic Brewer wants to use then Seattle should give reps to Michael Robinson. And since we're making rash decisions based on a player's first start, did Hasselbeck himself prove why it took him four seasons to make an NFL start in 2001 when he completed 20 of 34 pass attempts for 178 yards, two interceptions, three sacks and no touchdowns?
Pity facts, huh? How they get in the way of agenda.
Whitehurst threw two red-zone interceptions, one of which came after wide receiver Mike Williams lost a battle with Giants cornerback Terrell Thomas.
"Lost a battle", that's neatly ambiguous. I know for Brewer, as someone that's paid to cover and write about the Seahawks, that it's a drag actually watching the game, but NFL.com has this cool little service where they link highlights to the play-by-play. Check it out!
2-16-NYG 17 (15:00) 6-C.Whitehurst pass deep middle intended for 17-M.Williams INTERCEPTED by 24-T.Thomas at NYG -1. 24-T.Thomas to NYG 27 for 28 yards (11-D.Butler). WATCH HIGHLIGHT
Hey, after actually watching the play it seems that Williams didn't "lose a battle" but instead juggled the ball into the air before it fell to Thomas. An objective analysis of that play might argue that Whitehurst did absolutely nothing wrong and instead watched as his receiver turned a touchdown pass into an interception, but that certainly opens some grey area in this crusade to defend Hasselbeck. Let's phrase that away and instead imply Whitehurst was at fault.
Alright, done? Good. Good.
It added up to a futile and scant offensive showing. The Seahawks managed only 162 total yards, but more shocking was that they ran just 37 plays and had possession of the ball for less than 30 percent of the game.
For the second consecutive week, the Seahawks defense played poorly, allowing 487 yards. But those players were on the field for 42 minutes and 34 seconds of this game. The biggest problem continues to be the offense's inability to find a rhythm, especially early in the game.
The Seahawks offense had the ball three times before the Giants were up 21-0. The Giants drove 52 yards, 63 yards and then four yards following the Leon Washington fumble, and scored three touchdowns before the end of the first quarter. This was not a tired defense getting blown off the field in the fourth quarter. This was a bad defense getting blown off the field in the first quarter.
How someone can watch yesterday's game and conclude that "[t]he biggest problem continues to be the offense's inability to find a rhythm, especially early in the game" is staggering. When the defense and special teams puts the offense in a three score deficit before the beginning of the second quarter, I think it's the offense that should be crying foul.
No, Hasselbeck isn't the goat of the offense. The entire unit is growing hollow horns.
Brewer is unintentionally contradicting himself. "Goat" of course is short for scapegoat, and a scapegoat is not at fault. A scapegoat is sacrificed for the failures of others. As in, Jerry Brewer has decided to scapegoat Charlie Whitehurst for yesterday's blowout.
But I agree, Hasselbeck is not "the goat" of this offense. As for the entire unit growing hollow horns, team trainers should probably look into that.
Asked if the Giants took advantage of Whitehurst, New York safety Antrel Rolle said, "It doesn't matter who was in there. The quarterback could have been Hasselbeck. It could have been whoever. It was going to be the same outcome."
Giants player, swaggering after a blowout win on the road, says "It doesn't matter who was in there. The quarterback could have been Hasselbeck."
Jerry Brewer's conclusion:
Rolle said those words to hype his defense. But if he had intended to degrade the Seahawks offense, would you have argued with him?
No? What if Rolle intended it sell pork futures, then I would be really confused.
If you had intended for that quote to undermine the thrust of your argument, would I have argued with you, Jerry?
"It's frustrating," Obomanu said. "It's frustrating for everybody."
Cue non sequitur segue.
Even more frustrating is the fact that new offensive coordinator Jeremy Bates hasn't had a good first eight games, either. Bates, who came to Seattle with a good reputation, has made a season's worth of questionable play-calling decisions thus far.
Maybe the mistakes are more noticeable because the Seahawks are so thoroughly flawed. Nevertheless, the instances of second-guessing are starting to rival maligned former coordinator Greg Knapp.
On Sunday, one play in particular haunted the Seahawks. First quarter. Third down and one. Instead of giving the ball to Marshawn Lynch, the running back with the nickname "Beast Mode" who the Seahawks traded for last month, Bates called a trick play. Whitehurst handed off to running back Leon Washington, who tossed it back to Whitehurst, who saw that tight end Chris Baker was wide open. Whitehurst threw a terrible pass, however.
The trick play, that worked perfectly and could have led to a long completion, but failed when "Whitehurst threw a terrible pass" is a questionable play call? By that logic, if Bates would have called for a run and the run was short of the first because, oh, I don't know, Sean Locklear missed a block on Lamarr Houston, that would also then become a questionable play call because it failed.
The Seahawks punted, and two minutes later, the Giants took a 14-0 lead.
Which, again, is Charlie Whitehurst and the offense's fault, because the defense was so tired midway through the first quarter.
Yes, the play would've worked if Whitehurst hadn't missed the throw. But why get cute with a nervous quarterback who hadn't played a real NFL down before Sunday?
Because the Seahawks had modest expectations of Whitehurst and were hoping to get a big play through deception. Had Whitehurst completed that pass, Bates would have been hailed as a genius, but because Whitehurst fails, it becomes a bad play call. Naturally.
The Seahawks aren't good enough to squander opportunities. They also aren't going to develop a good offensive line by resorting to soft gadget plays when the moment demands trust that your guys are physical enough to gain a single yard.
He nails it here. I have long wondered how a talent poor and injured offensive line would play poorly, but it's so clear now. Jeremy Bates has not developed a good line because he resorts to "soft" gadget plays when "the moment demands trust." Damn you Bates.
The good news is that Hasselbeck should return from his concussion this week, and left tackle Russell Okung might be available, too. Perhaps stability can spur improvement.
Yes, like the stability at quarterback for the first seven games of the season spurred improvement. One thing I have learned conclusively is that if you want to change something for the better, it's best to change nothing at all. And if you're forced into change and it doesn't work right away, retreat to familiar failure.
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I read that article...
and did you hee the post game on fox. They were all calling for Whitehursts head as well. I was dissapointed in that. I do not like CW but I saw a QB that has all the right tools but noe experience.
Calling for a first game QB head never makes sense. Ever.
Chalk it up to jitters, and have him play an average to poor opponent and see what happens. To expect anything other than failure in these circumstances is just plain dumb, and to blame the rookie QB is even worse.
by Lanky on Nov 8, 2010 3:04 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Team effort, or lack thereof
I was at the Chicago game last year, and remember Mora putting the blame on Mare for the loss, which I thought was un fair. And Housh was kind of a cry baby.
I was watching the Pete Carrol show last night, and it struck me that no one on the team was pointing fingers at anyone else, or saying they should have got more snaps, etc. And Pete was working really hard not to rag on anyone too much in the post game interveiws that I saw. (I know, its his job, but still, he did that part better than most coaches who get their asses handed to them in a game.)
The point is, even though they kinda suck, the team is acting like a team.
So there is hope for the future!
Real coaches blame players
like the kicker or the center.
/Mora’d
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Nov 8, 2010 2:52 PM PST up reply actions
On that 3rd and 1 trick play
How many times in the past few weeks have we seen Beast Mode get clobbered in that same situation?
We know what Hasselbeck can do. Nothing new. I’m all for letting Charlie finish the season because fuck can he throw a pretty ball. It’s his decision making that could use some work, but you know what, the best way to learn is through experience. If he doesn’t fuck up he’ll never learn. Keep the man in there, find out how well he can learn.
by B.B.Finnegan on Nov 8, 2010 2:50 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
And here we were with a mix of bad and new linemen, against a premier defensive line.
Yeah, doing the obvious run would have made absolutely no sense in that situation.
We already ceremoniously dumped the two guys capable of that
Their names were Duckett and Weaver.
Michael Robinson leads the Seahawks in completion percentage, yards-per-attempt, and QB rating.
Also, this team is a bunch of goddamn pussies, real men run it right of the fucking middle on 3rd and 1!!
Yeah, if you can't run it up the middle on third and one, you are clearly not a man.
The trick play is akin to getting your best friend to knock up your girlfriend.
by djafrot on Nov 8, 2010 3:12 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Did you throw up a little when you said that?
I did, and just from reading it.
It was sarcastic enough that I don't feel ant regret.
When I say that actually mean it is when we have problems.
For the sake of my own sanity, I did sense the sarcasm.
Which is why I threw in a little of my own there. But I appreciate the sarcasm confirmation.
If we had a guy like Hines Ward on the team, he would have run it up the middle himself
While being his own blocker. What pussies we have on our team, for trying new things when the old things are failing.
I am going to come into your house at night and rec up the place.
Request for Future Article: Hawk's Injury History
Hey John,
Any chance that you could do an article sometime on the history of injuries for the Hawks? It would be great to get a sense of whether the incidence of injuries has been higher than average in recent years or whether ours is a not uncommon scenario in the modern NFL.
As a fan, I know that it sure FEEL like we’ve had more than our fair share of injuries these past few years. In 2008, it was the wide receiver corp who were decimated by injuries. This year, it’s the linemen who are falling like flies. How many starter from training camp have been injured? Three of four defensive linemen, and at least three of our offensive linemen?
Thanks for considering.
He mentioned that field turf is bad for injuries.
I wonder if the combination of cold and high humidity hurts as well.
Why would the humidity be problematic?
Also, it seems like the cold would be overcome by the players warming up and such.
I don't know, I'm not a scientist.
Just a guess. I know people from out East come to where I live and start complaining about their joints.
No he didn't.
He mentioned field turf is correlated with more ACL and ankle injuries (I believe those were the two). The fact that only those two injuries are mentioned makes the study sort of worthless. Making irrelevant distinctions (those two injuries vs. others) is a common statistical deception. A similar trick is used in “the curse of 370”. Why is the line 370? Why are these two injuries considered? Because they best support the conclusion that is being argued. This is not how you test a hypothesis, fitting the hypothesis to the data is bad statistics. The study is quite bogus and the comments thread there exposes it pretty badly (sorry no link).
Anyhow, I don’t argue that the lack of “give” with field turf doesn’t injure. I would just say the less even composition and potential for wetness (particularly in PNW) will lead to injuries on grass more than turf. We just don’t know enough yet. If we analyze a bunch of injuries, of course some will be more prevalent on one surface than the other. That is not in and of itself suggestive of anything unless there is a very strong reason for considering only those injuries.
Injuries have been more of an issue for the Hawks than most (although not all) other teams. There is no magic bullet solution though. In a few years as the roster turns over it is reasonable to expect us to be more average in this regard, but theres no way to be sure.
Resist the impulse to believe that everything happens for a reason.
The Curse of 370 is a multiple end points fallacy
I didn’t audit the study but I don’t see the connection. (In fact I can’t find the study anymore)
My understanding is the study tested for all injuries and the ACL and high ankle sprains are the only two injuries that showed a higher incidence on field turf.
It's called AGL
for ‘Adjusted Games Lost’. It is a stat compiled by FootballOutsiders and has been mentioned in John Morgan posts before. They basically tally up the number of injuries from each team for comparison purposes. The Hawks have been among the most injured over the last few years.
- in 2008
- in 2009
I don’t have the Almanac that they sell so I don’t have numbers for other years. There is an article about the Colts that indicates that over the last five years, Seattle was not among the five most injured teams (it doesn’t list past five). However, the Seahawks O was the #2 most injured unit during that time period.
So to answer the question, the Seahawks have had more injuries than most, particularly on offense, but there have been teams that have had it worse. Some of those teams (like the Colts) have done better than the Hawks despite similar injury rates. Maybe if someone here has the Almanac they can give us a few more data points.
A lot of teams have promising draft choices as “depth”. We have promising draft choices starting (its all we’ve got) and replacement levels as “depth”. It is just gonna take time for this team to be rebuilt.
wtf, i didn't write 1. and 2.
it converted my pound signs, grrrr
it was 5th and 6th in 2008 and 2009, I forget which was which.
Looks to me like Thomas got a hand in there to force the Williams bobble.
It is hard for me to tell, since the views are mostly from behind. I don’t take issue with Brewer calling it a battle, if that hand really got in there. A pretty nice pass, I thought. Bad result, good process.
Mostly I just thought it was lame how little recognition Brewer gave to some pretty valid issues. Both lines are decimated, and we’re playing one of the very best, if not the best, teams in the league. This article seems like we were playing a game we expected to win. Obviously you shouldn’t get blown out like that, but there were also a few flukey plays that made it worse, such as the Thomas INT and Leon fumble.
Watch the replay
You don’t think the ball should be there right when Williams looks back? Instead Williams has to wait a split second which allows the DB to make a play. And watch Charlie as he goes back, its almost like he knee buckles a bit.
by m_b on Nov 8, 2010 3:15 PM PST up reply actions
Whitehurst take a five step drop, stumbles slightly in his back pedal, hesitates slightly before throwing
and then hits Williams, shielding Thomas out of the play. Williams attempts to catch the ball with both hands and begins bobbling it. There’s no clear evidence that Thomas impacted Williams’ bobble at all, and the rest is just bad bounces and bad outcomes.
It wasn’t perfect timing, but Whitehurst made a pass that should have been caught for a touchdown.
REALLY?!?!?!!?
Have you NOT watched Hasselbeck time and time again throw behind receivers, forcing them to break stride?
I mean, c’mon. You are a Hasselbeck supporter, right? If so, to use that excuse on a Charlie throw is inexcusable given your support of Hasselbeck.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Nov 8, 2010 3:40 PM PST up reply actions
This isn't really called for
We’re not in Hasselbeck supporter or Whitehurst supporter camps, and if Whitehurst was late, it wouldn’t matter if Hasselbeck was late all the damn time.
Sorry.
My apologies, I thought m_b had said something on another thread that was not from m_b, and I over-reacted regardless.
That being said, I’d like to think I’m—and we’re all— in the SEAHAWKS camp.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Nov 8, 2010 4:11 PM PST up reply actions
This isn't about Hasselbeck
I am just making a comment on my interpretation of the pass. I realize I’m splitting hairs but to me it’s late, which allows a play to be made.
by m_b on Nov 8, 2010 5:06 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Mike Williams had a perfect pass in his hands and bobbled it
Don’t turn this around and say Charlie threw it late.
Michael Robinson leads the Seahawks in completion percentage, yards-per-attempt, and QB rating.
If Williams keeps his hands out, there's no way Thomas can reach around and touch that ball.
You may argue that the chance of success would have been even better had he thrown sooner (although I don’t see why you’re reaching that conclusion), but WIlliams had position and the chance of success was still high enough that it wasn’t a mistake by Charlie, in my view.
The pass looked perfect
Doesn’t show on that replay, but i do seem to remember seeing Terrill’s hand in there and hitting the ball first, or about the same time BMW did, and knocking it in the air. Just a great play by Terrill
BMW being used to Hasselsack's bullets
Figued he had a minute when he saw the ball coming to him. Then it was OH SHIT thats not a Matty pass.
Stick a fork in him - HE IS THROUGH
by eohawkfan on Nov 8, 2010 4:55 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Fantastic review!
I love these ‘John takes a hatchet to ignorant journalist’s work posts.
How does garbage like that allow someone like Brewer to keep his job? I couldn’t believe there wasn’t at least one Steve Hutchinson reference in the piece. Piece of crap, that is.
Block for Charlie Whitehurst. Everyone.
Why? Because average people like that shit.
Reactionary, anger-based journalism sells papers, er, ad space.
Not much longer
Newspapers are a dying business, and guys like Brewer aren’t going to keep their jobs much longer.
And bloggers are so much better?
Remember, we’re spoiled on people like John and the Mariners fans side of things with Cameron, DMZ, Jeff Sullivan, and others.
The rest of the world’s bloggers? Worse than this.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Nov 8, 2010 4:57 PM PST up reply actions
It's interesting to compare Brewer's column on UW to this one.
The tone is so different, despite the results being nearly identical.
I don't mean to be negative here...
But you only got one thing right in this article and you weren’t enthusiastic about it.
by Culter on Nov 8, 2010 3:21 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
The only real question that needed to be explored
was ‘Would we have won with Hasselbeck at QB’? And the answer to that is no.
Who cares if Hass had a slightly better stat line. For all we know Hass completes more short passes and we end up with 3 or 6 points rather than a TD from the one explosive play Charlie hit that Matt hasn’t been able to hit in ages. And the Mike Williams interception was all on Mike. That pass was perfectly thrown.
If I were Pete, the last two games would tell me:
1. My team isn’t good enough to compete for it all this year. I need a few more drafts.
2. Charlie had one explosive play for 7 points. I’m not sure my starting QB would have scored even that touchdown the way we played yesterday. I need the explosive plays in my offense.
3. I need to know if I have to draft a QB this year. Matt isn’t the answer. I need to know if Charlie is.
I don’t see much benefit to playing Hasselbeck. I doubt he does much better than Charlie did yesterday. And if Charlie gets better with more play time, then we get better as a team.
And even if Charlie sucks as bad ten year old eggs in swamp water, we position ourselves better to draft our QB of the future or at least upgrade the talent on the team. I know that isn’t in Pete’s thinking and shouldn’t be. No coach should try to destroy his team.
I guess win as much as we can. Then hope Pete and John can have a decent draft with middling draft picks. Pete still does know the college players coming out next year pretty well. It should still help even with middling draft picks.
by A. Simmons on Nov 8, 2010 3:21 PM PST reply actions 6 recs
Agreed!
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Nov 8, 2010 7:36 PM PST up reply actions
I dub thee, "The King of Blades"!
I love when a writer’s bias is exposed.
by Trojan Knight on Nov 8, 2010 3:28 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Strange because I usually like Brewer's work but this article was way off base.
Regardless of which QB would’ve done better, and I have nothing but love for Matt, it was just nice to watch something different for once. Whitehurst probably won’t be the QB of the future but he was not the reason we lost and I’d rather we lost watching CW than seeing the same old thing with Hass.
And I’m on the side that thinks the 3rd and 1 trick play was an awesome idea and would love to see more outside the box play-calling like that.
Change
It’s surprising in any business when people see how something isn’t working, and yet refuse to change or are critical of those who do bring change. It turns out that if you do everything the same as it was before……things won’t be any different!
Great Piece
Yeah, Charlie was rough, but who seriously didn’t expect that? I don’t care if we’ve got the number one pick starting, rarely does a QB come in and kill it in his first start. I actually went and got my google on and starting looking at first start stats for various quarterbacks and the numbers aren’t too different from CW’s. For example, Donavan McNabb’s first start was even worse, he was 8 for 20 for 68 yards, 1 TD and 2 picks. He followed that with 8 for 21 for 60 yards, zero TD’s and 3 picks. The quarterbacks who DO come in and have great first games are usually surrounded by great teams, which was most certainly NOT the case yesterday.
by NinjaHawk on Nov 8, 2010 3:34 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
You mean, we can't judge a QB by his first ever start, and primarily the first half of his first start?
Whut? But I thought first impressions are the truest conclusion on the football field.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Nov 8, 2010 3:43 PM PST up reply actions
I think people are adding yesterday's shitty game to two other factors:
1) that Charlie could not earn even a single start, nor the backup job, in San Diego.
2) that Charlie could not beat out Matt for the starter’s job in Seattle.
I’d say those two things should be factors overall, but Charlie still needs way more than a game with no OL against one of the best defenses in the league.
Exactly
Perhaps the reason they put in Volek in front of Whitehurst is maybe because they thought Volek was a better game manager.
The Seahawks, right now, are not built to win with a game managing QB. We have to have a difference maker. We are not the Ravens or Jets who can just hand the ball off all fucking day and let the defense change the game.
by MTJ on Nov 8, 2010 6:22 PM PST up reply actions
I saw a Steve Kelley article
Where he says “The Seattle Seahawks cannot win without a healthy Matt Hasselbeck.”
I stopped reading there. The Times sucks but I think this entire area (Seattle) is overly nostalgic and they never are critical of the right people.
Michael Robinson leads the Seahawks in completion percentage, yards-per-attempt, and QB rating.
Was that Steve Kelley article you saw written in 2006?
Wait… let me rephrase that— I KNOW it was written in 2006. Did he as least update it with today’s Hasselbeck teammates, or did he just roll it out without proofreading.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Nov 8, 2010 3:44 PM PST up reply actions
Kelley is a hack
But he’s not the only one living in the past. All of them have an agenda based on the people they’ve met and if the season goes to s**t I GUARANTEE there will be a Holmgren article now that Cleveland is respectable.
Michael Robinson leads the Seahawks in completion percentage, yards-per-attempt, and QB rating.
So very true...
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Nov 8, 2010 4:11 PM PST up reply actions
Prediction
Hass will start this week but when things get really sideways I think Carrol will throw Chuck back in there. Maybe week 14 or 15.
I don't think they're going to start Whitehurst unless Hass is healthy
Because Hasselbeck doesn’t suck enough (Max Hall suck) to be benched I guess.
Michael Robinson leads the Seahawks in completion percentage, yards-per-attempt, and QB rating.
I agree except for if the season is lost (i.e. out playoff contention)
then Carrol turns to Whitehurst
Seattle would probably have to tank the season to be out of contention
And right now they have no excuse to lose to Arizona or Carolina before week 17.
Michael Robinson leads the Seahawks in completion percentage, yards-per-attempt, and QB rating.
I wish I had your optimism
but I honestly don’t see us winning many more games – and none on the road.
If Jimmy Clausen manages to kill Seattle's defense (Moore out for season)
Bradley has to go.
Michael Robinson leads the Seahawks in completion percentage, yards-per-attempt, and QB rating.
I'm sick of seeing rookies even tasting success against Seattle
Stafford did for a quarter, Freeman did, and Bradford did it this year.
Michael Robinson leads the Seahawks in completion percentage, yards-per-attempt, and QB rating.
If it makes you feel better I have us winning the Carolina game
but only because it’s at home
Oops, I read it as "see us winning any more games"
Thanks to last week we just gave the Niners a rubber stamp back into division contention.
Michael Robinson leads the Seahawks in completion percentage, yards-per-attempt, and QB rating.
And for the record I think we'll finish 6-10
St. Louis takes it a 8-8 or 9-7.
Michael Robinson leads the Seahawks in completion percentage, yards-per-attempt, and QB rating.
I agree
I think 6-10 is likely. I think Arizona is probably the one solid chance to win that I’d give us this month.
I still say 8-8.
Ari, SF, Car, and STL with a possibility of KC here. Okung and Mebane return. Plus I still think this team improves in certain spots as some young guys get more experience.
I can see Carolina
But I think that the Niners and the Rams are going to be tough. Especially playing the Niners on the road.
Hopefully QB is one of those spots, then I can believe in 8-8...
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Nov 8, 2010 6:06 PM PST up reply actions
If the defense doesn't thrive against those four offenses
Then it never will. There isn’t even an average quarterback in the bunch.
If Bradford continues to develop
By season’s end, he could easily be an above average QB. The Rams are probably the one divisional team that actually concern me.
The Rams are actually pretty solid
If you look at their losses, all but one have been under five points. I don’t know that they can really be looked at as the divisional doormats.
Of course not. They have a good chance of taking it.
But they’re 28th in DVOA and have had the easiest schedule so far. The NFC West is one big doormat.
I think this defense has actually been pretty sound.
But injuries have destroyed the defensive line, and now it looks like crap.
That was the most amazing trick play I've seen
I didn’t know you could snap the ball like that, though.
Michael Robinson leads the Seahawks in completion percentage, yards-per-attempt, and QB rating.
Hell, that's old.
I’m 35 and my team did that in Olympia when I was in 5th grade… like 85/86 or so.
Being a basketball guy, it reminds me of this— which is funnier too. And more fun if it works, as you aren’t “cheating” so much as just being completely random.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8LAvlmOUus&NR=1
I did run that when I coached 8th graders. They absolutely LOVED doing it.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Nov 8, 2010 6:13 PM PST up reply actions
I think that's disgusting.
I hate trick plays like that at the school level. Flea-flickers, reverses, fine, but stuff where you’re taking advantage of someone’s uncertainly as to whether the game’s even on or not is poor sportsmanship in my opinion.
If I was a kid on the other team and that happened I’d feel like crap, and for no good reason other than I didn’t know every stupid little rule in the book.
by djafrot on Nov 8, 2010 4:03 PM PST up reply actions 4 recs
I dunno, obviously the coach wanted to Win Forever.
Michael Robinson leads the Seahawks in completion percentage, yards-per-attempt, and QB rating.
suffice it to say Pop Warner coaches around the league...
are informing their players that the play starts when the ball is snapped as we speak.
Haha, just like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQbAP-K28J8&feature=fvsr
Divine justice. Too bad the coach couldn’t be the one carrying the ball.
The thing I really hate is that on this kind of play the coach usually yells GO when he figures it’s optimal to run. Who’s playing this game, the kids or the coach?
Agreed. What is the point to running that play at the junior high level?
Yay we won! Now we get the good juice boxes!
Thanks for pointing that out
At first I thought it was clever, but… no. You’re right. It would be clever in the Pros or Division I collegiate. But at that level, it’s like pointing to where a kid’s parents are sitting and screaming “Oh my god! Someone just got stabbed in stands!” Classless.
I couldn't agree with you more DJ
that kind of stuff really bugs me…
my little cousin’s baseball and football coach pulls shit like that all the time and it really pisses me off. And a lot of the time the kids aren’t even wanting to do it….especially the baseball ones because they’re so cheap, and they feel like crap doing it, but they have to anyways.
Usually ends up in all the parents yelling at the coach for being an ass
I Bleed Blue and Green
No matter...
When the O-Line is as bad as it is right now it doesn’t matter if Hasselbeck, Whitehurst, or even Joe Montana was our QB the offense would still suck.
The New York Islanders....they make opposing goalies look gooooood.
The O-line allowed 0 sacks last week
Aaron Rodgers was one of the best QBs in the league despite one of the most ungodly bad offensive lines in football in 2009.
Michael Robinson leads the Seahawks in completion percentage, yards-per-attempt, and QB rating.
we kept a lot of blockers though
I would be interested in seeing Charlie perform with more options down the field than just 2 or 3
Yeah, that really shocked me.
Even in situations where you think the Giants would have had pressure, there wasn’t much. Either that or Charlie managed to move in the pocket well to negotiate the pressure, which I thought wasn’t supposed to be his strength.
I wonder if Bates has really dumbed down the offense for him so that he’s only really got one read, and if he can’t force it in there (which he did quite frequently) to keep his head on a swivel and get the hell out of there.
Charlie didn't get sacked because we used extra blockers
Check out this week’s personnel files. We had an extra blocker in on most plays.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Nov 8, 2010 4:10 PM PST up reply actions
They might as well simplify the offense for Hasselbeck too
Or maybe the extra blocker delays the self-sack.
Michael Robinson leads the Seahawks in completion percentage, yards-per-attempt, and QB rating.
Right, but as per John's analysis of the "extra blocker" scheme, that means fewer targets out on pass routes.
When you put Matt in that situation, he still gets sacked because his arm strength makes it difficult to fit passes into receivers that are covered by multiple defenders.
According to this theory, Charlie would be able to better neutralize the rush by getting the ball out faster. I’m pretty sure his plays were designed this way, allowing for the fewest number of reads necessary. Drop, and throw. Drop, and throw. Roll out, pick between two guys right in your field of vision, throw.
John Carlson
Have we not heard all year that John’s numbers are down this year because he is being kept in to block on most plays.
Stick a fork in him - HE IS THROUGH
It sounds like you didn't read John's 3-part series on the subject
Carlson isn’t get any fewer targets, he’s just not catching as many.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Nov 8, 2010 6:59 PM PST up reply actions
Just because...
We didn’t allow any sacks on sunday still doesn’t mean the O-Line was playing great. Take a look at our rushing stats and you’ll see that they were next to nothing. This isn’t the ‘07 Seahawks, we can’t put the whole team on Hasselbeck’s arm and expect to win. We need to be able to run the ball. If we can’t run the ball and are forced to pass more we become on dimensional and easier to stop. Just look at the game against Chicago. We ran well and that took some pressure off of Hasselbeck and he had a pretty good game.
The New York Islanders....they make opposing goalies look gooooood.
Seattle deserves Hasselbeck
These are the same nimrods that called for Dilfer over Hasselbeck.
Seattle will watch a 1st round QB pick go down the drain with the fickle shit.
Seattle will have earned it. Pathetic.
It is what it is...
It's pretty damned clear that Brewer sees what he wants to see.
And he’s firmly in the Hasselbeck or nothing camp. It’s pretty incredible that he’s actually paid for that sort of garbage.
"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM
http://seahawksblog.wordpress.com
Seriously, what did the pundits expect?
Yesterday, we had:
1. A player with some nice potential and some flaws,
2. making his first ever NFL start,
3. with a patchwork O line,
4. Against one of the best teams in the NFL,
5. throwing to a VERY mediocre WR corps,
6. who let him down with at least 1 horrendous, game changing drop,
7. plus a garbage running game that could not help him.
P.S. – And a defense handing out yards and TDs like candy on halloween.
What could you possibly expect of him, given all of that? The Hawks were going to lose that game no matter freaking what. They were screwed before they even took the field, even with hasselbeck, zak robinson, mark sanchez, whoever. They would have lost that game.
To completely write of Whitehurst after that one game is ridiculous. It was like everyone just thought he would throw for 250+ and 2+ TDs in his first start and we would roll the best team in the NFC, completely ignoring all of the factors that made such a game highly improbable. Absolutely laughable. He needs playing time. He needs to get the rest of this year. And if he can’t cut it, the hawks need to draft their QB of the future.
Going back to hasselbeck’s terrible play, just because we are familiar with it, does nothing for the future of this team. What a joke.
by Dialectic on Nov 8, 2010 5:00 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
Well said.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Nov 8, 2010 6:15 PM PST up reply actions
BTW, this "tired defense" only gave up 6 points in the second half.
They bent but didn’t break. It was too little too late after the ass raping in the first half, but if they were so tired, why wasn’t the score 70+ to 7? The Giants drove several times and were kept out of it. In fairness, they probably could have gone for another field goal on that 4th down play instead of going for it to grind out the clock, but that’s still not too bad at all considering things.
And don’t tell me the Giants weren’t still trying to score, throwing on the goal line in the 4th quarter…
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Nov 8, 2010 5:04 PM PST reply actions
Nice post John.
I like Jerry Brewer but you kind of tore him a new one there. I read the article today and given that I don’t really want anything to do with Charlie, just kind of took it all in and subconsciously used it to support my lack of faith in CW.
Definitely not his best work.
Okay.... I'm in.
Jerry Brewer probably sucks some mean ass at the Christmas office party.
Probably how he got the job. Him and the whole Brewer army out there.
Sure hope Charlie gets another chance Sunday with Bane and Okung helping the cause.
Tangent: Anybody want to write an article yet on the Walrus and Colt McCoy? Too soon?
Okay, let’s keep an eye on it.
by broadbill birdwatcher on Nov 8, 2010 5:32 PM PST reply actions
And Hillis.
One thing I love about football: a throwaway guy like Hillis tearing it up. Good for him. Good for Holmgren (or whoever thought to trade dumb-ass McDaniels for him).
Speaking of which
Anyone else notice the resurgence of white running backs?
Peyton Hillis, Toby Gerhart, and John Kuhn!
by Pessimistic Optimist on Nov 8, 2010 6:04 PM PST up reply actions
Wait.
Broadbill birdwatcher, is there really a “whole Brewer army out there” ??? First I’ve heard of it!
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Nov 8, 2010 6:18 PM PST up reply actions
Brewer is a hack, just as bad as Kelly.
They don’t know sports, couldn’t play sports, and for some reason they get paid to bitch about them.
If I could sum up the state of the Hawks season so far, it would go like this: The line coaches decided to take out the O and D linemen for a job well done in Chicago and the team bus was in a 7 car pile up and rolled over 15 times on the way to Morton’s Steakhouse.
Bam, that’s what happened. And the replacements we got from over eaters anonymous are doing the best they can.
Seattle sports media sucks for the most part
KJR was just absurd today. You would have thought that Whitehurst fumbled every snap, not completed a pass, and literally/visually shit his pants on the field.
Bottom line, and I HATE saying this, losing with Whitehurst and other young guys is what we should be doing right now. I’m not dying to eek our way into the playoffs because of a horse shit division, only to watch another debacle like the Giants fiasco, and subsequently fucking ourselves in the draft/screwing the rebuilding process.
The Seattle sports media is just dying to get our asses handed to us in the first round of the playoffs. Maybe I am “new school,” but I’d rather build something special that can compete with the best over being content with squeezing into the playoffs by exploiting what is right now a horse shit division. We won’t be able to eek by much longer when the Rams get more experience and the 49ers get rid of Baby Dick Alex Smith.
We gotta see what Whitehurst can do (more than 1 game against the best team in the NFL) and determine whether or not we need QB in round 1 is a must.
Nice work John.
I read the article before you destroyed it and felt the same way.
For the record, both QB’s aren’t very good but charlie gives us the best chance to score touchdowns.
fuck the hatas cholly.
Thanks again John.
I hear that Charlie did not get sacked in the game (Coming from Australia and was stuck with Eagles-Colts)
You sir, are an omnipotent juicebox.
I will never read Brewer's articles the same again
He is bad.
I’m changing the channel next time he’s a special guest on Q It Up Sports.
John I wish you did a write up before the game to bring people’s expectation for Whitehurst to reality. Then we wouldn’t have this post game hanging.
Yesterday’s game was pretty much in line with what Whitehurst showed in the preseason.
by 206Bruce on Nov 9, 2010 12:00 AM PST via mobile reply actions
I like the play, didn't necessarily like the timing
I do believe that any typical short yardage run was likely to be stuffed, however. I would have preferred a higher-percentage play, but one can certainly argue that Charlie had two wide-open receivers on that side, and just choked. It was a big swing in the game. Williams was wide open deep with a couple steps and no safety help behind, and the TE was open short.
I certainly like a little creativity on offense in general, however. It is a nice change from Holmgren’s “I’m not going to try to fool anyone, we are just going to execute, dammit!”
Off topic a little
and depending on what happens with our QB situation, how many more games to you see this team winning? I am looking at the schedule and see two, maybe three more which would be disappointing to some but a serious improvement over recent years.
John Hancock
by mrcoffee1969 on Nov 9, 2010 12:28 PM PST up reply actions
At the beginning of the season, I expected 4-7 wins
I see us likely losing the next three games (although the Cards is a possible win, and could change the team’s fortunes), beating the Panthers at home, losing to the 49rs in their house, losing to the Falcons, Bucs, and then losing to the Rams at home. Wow. I hadn’t gone through the rest of the games, but I guess I see us somewhere around 5-11 to 6-10 in terms of my best guess. All of our division games quite winnable, though, so we could end up as good as 7-9 or even 8-8 if everything rolls our way.
An improvement, and moving in the right direction. PC and crew made a lot of good moves in the offseason, and their coaching seems superior, but there have been some questionable moves as well (Whitehurst, letting Vickerson go, Pistol, Sims)
My pessimism about the rest of the schedule is one reason why I want Whitehurst to start a few games. We know what we have in Hasselbeck, and we won’t have a decent idea of Whitehurst’s potential without a reasonable sample of real NFL games. As many have mentioned, Hass (and most other QBs) stunk up the joint on their first few starts as well. It takes a few games for most QBs to get their feet under them. If the season is lost anyway due to injuries (although it is definitely too early to say that as we are roughly in 1st place in our division), then why go further down the road with Matt, who isn’t under contract for next year? In all likelihood, CW is a career backup, but we need to know more about his upside under real conditions.
If Matt is good to go, and we beat the Cards in their house, then a lot changes…
amazing
I find it amazing that everyone is so in love with the idea of Charlie Whitehurst. And you can write up 10 more overly defensive articles on behalf of Charlie, but lets face facts here. 5th year in the league he throws his first pass, gets his first start and he blows it.
Lets give him the same pass that you would give a rookie making his first start, which he is not. Lets say his first game was just a dud, and he has quite a career lined up in front of him. Hypothetical situation, 3 years from now Seahawks ride Charlie Whitehurst all the way to their first super bowl victory. I would still have to ask, why in the world do Seahawks fans today have such a hard on for him????
He has never done anything in the league. Given the way Hasselbeck has sucked this year, I can’t imagine Charlie would be sitting on the bench if the coaches thought he was worth a damn. I know they aren’t afraid of backlash from the fans if they bench Hasselbeck. Then Charlie gets in the game and does NOTHING! The article mentions his what, 4 first downs… 4 first downs!! and says that’s evidence he did something good??? He hit a TD pass in junk time on what had to be blown coverage because there wasn’t a defender within 20 yards, so what, that’s evidence he has some upside?
What really annoys me about this article is that it starts off saying how we shouldn’t twist Whitehurst struggles into defense of Hasselbeck, yet there is a whole lot of spin here trying to make excuses for Charlie. 4 1/2 years in the league, only got hit once, took no sacks and looked completely, totally lost on the field. He may start next week, pass for 600 yards and 5 TDs, but at this point there is nothing to tell Seahawks fans that he’s even good enough to be a backup QB, yet all you guys talk about in these blogs are the glory days waiting ahead with CW leading this team.
Whitehurst should get more chances but..
jeesh, he looked terrible. The Giants are a good team but their safeties looked like psychics out there. We have never lost by that much at Qwest field. Seneca Wallace never lost by that much even on the road in 2008. There’s blame to go around, of course, but 3-and-out after 3-and-out is going to put some strain on the defense. There’s no question in my mind we’ll go after a quarterback with our first pick next year no matter what Whitehurst does. He’s an expensive backup in a league where backups are expensive.
Re: amazing
You say that “everyone” is in love with the idea of Charlie Whitehurst, but you provide no evidence of this. In fact, what I’ve seen is people realizing that Hasselbeck is losing (or has lost) his abilities to be a successful quarterback. We have Charlie Whitehurst, so people want to see what he is able to do. It’s not that people love Whitehurst, it’s that they would like a chance to evaluate our options. If Charlie sucks, great, now we know. It’s something we already know about Hasselbeck. You’re falling into a false dichotomy: either you love Hasselbeck and hate Whitehurst, or you hate Hasselbeck and love Whitehurst. But these are not the only two options.
You are also failing to understand John’s defense in this post. It’s not that Whitehurst played a brilliant game. It is, in large part, that Brewer is using two different methods of evaluating quarterback play, one for Hasselbeck, one for Whitehurst.
Let’s say Charlie went 13 of 32 for 163 yards, with no TDs and one pick instead of going 12 of 23 for 113 with 1 and 2. Would you, honestly, say he played a good game? Because that’s what Matt did last week. Few people, if anybody, are saying that Charlie played well, because he didn’t. But it’s unfair to blame him, and solely him, for a 41-7 shellacking when you won’t blame Matt for a 33-3 game.
I’m not sure how you know the coaches aren’t afraid of a backlash, and I’m not sure how you know that they would put him in if they think he might be worth seeing. Sure, it’s possible. But by similar logic, you can argue that they have a lot of confidence in him because they traded a third round pick for him and signed him two a two-year, $8 million contract. This, of course, is no guarantee that the coaching staff believes strongly in Charlie, but it’s no worse evidence than them starting Hasselbeck for the first part of the season is to the contrary.
Whether intentionally or not, you’re misunderstanding the reasoning behind people’s desire to see Charlie. I’m not sure anybody thinks he’s the next Peyton Manning, but shouldn’t we find out where we stand? Only if you know he will never develop can you make a credible argument against ever playing him, and although you seem to believe this is the case, I don’t think you’ve given much evidence for it.
by Christoph on Nov 9, 2010 1:47 PM PST up reply actions 8 recs
Excellent comment.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Nov 9, 2010 2:04 PM PST up reply actions
Why the love of CW?
Because we KNOW what we have with our other QB and we don’t like it.
John Hancock
Great points above
Being a CW supporter is not an admission that he will be a success. It’s simply a desire to see what we have. Fact of the matter, nobody knows what CW is like as a starting QB. Excuses/hatred aside, he’s never been given a chance to do so.
This is a bad team that NEEDS to figure out the QB situation. We know what Hass can do (the very little he can) and we don’t know what CW can do. It’s time to figure out the most important position in any sport.
The only thing Hass MIGHT provide is a better chance to not lose right now. He’s not winning games by any means. So, if your desire as a Hawks fan is to insure a blowout loss in Round 1 of the playoffs, while jeopardizing the future, then by all means knock yourself out.
I, on the otherhand, want to rebuild this thing properly, and that all (and always) starts at QB. And no, we can’t rely on assuming we hit the next Tom Brady in round 6. CW needs more evaluation/consistent playing time and if he proves unworthy, then we need to get a QB in round 1/2.
by MTJ on Nov 10, 2010 11:18 AM PST reply actions 1 recs

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