Postgame: Atlanta Falcons 34 - Seahawks 18
Watching Charlie Whitehurst struggle puts Matt Hasselbeck into perspective. Whitehurst had 16 pass attempts. Hasselbeck 17. Each took a sack. Whitehurst was dropped after John Abraham bucked Russell Okung. Jamaal Anderson brought reality as Hassebeck was reliving glory days. Hasselbeck completed a higher percentage of passes. Whitehurst threw for more yards. Charlie's big two plays were scrambles. Matt's biggest failure was something like a roll out.
Neither quarterback played well. Yet Seattle's moribund offense looked quicker, sharper and more potent under Whitehurst. Why exactly? Could it be game state? The Seahawks were well out of it by the time Whitehurst took the field. Could it just be circumstance? Whitehurst nearly threw an interception, and had he, his line would not have looked a whole helluva lot better than Hasselbeck's.
I don't know.
Nothing happened today that confirms Whitehurst is the future or even that Hasselbeck is the past.
But that never, ever has been the point of contention. It has never been Matt versus Charlie, except maybe in the Qwest bleachers. It hasn't been Charlie versus anyone. It has always, always been Matt versus Matt. And the 35 year old is winning in blowout fashion.
Not every Seahawks fan knows this, no matter how often it's repeated, but Matt Hasselbeck was a great quarterback. Like Shaun Alexander was a great running back. Like the Boz was a great linebacker prospect. Like Marcus Tubbs was a promising young defensive tackle. Like Walter Jones was the greatest offensive lineman I have ever watched play.
To be great, he first had to be better. Before Hasselbeck was Hasselbeck, before Hasselbeck was struggling to start over Trent Dilfer, before Hasselbeck was surgically carving zones, before Hasselbeck was overcoming his body and his surrounding talent and conducting a playoff bound passing offense through Leonard Weaver and Bobby Engram and Maurice Morris and Marcus Pollard, he was just a kid that outplayed BC starter Scott Mutryn. He was better than Mutryn. He earned his way to the top.
Today, Whitehurst looked better than Hasselbeck. I can't quantify it. I will attempt to qualify it in the coming week, but it's not elusive. Whitehurst moves better than Hasselbeck. He has much more life in his throws and can fit passes into tighter windows. He doesn't read like Hasselbeck but he doesn't loiter in the pocket either. Charlie takes the ball and finds somewhere to zing it. It's not poetry. It's not 2005 or even 2004. But it's not 2007 either. It isn't an overmatched quarterback winning with his steadiness, skill, read and timing. Whitehurst is a big, athletic, strong-armed quarterback with potential. Greatness may be a very long ways away, but he was better today and the Seahawks were a better team with him under center.
. . .
The Seahawks defense is sooo hard to place. The run defense returned today and with it, the scheme suddenly didn't seem so cockeyed. Maybe Atlanta just didn't target certain weaknesses. Maybe it was Colin Cole, of all people.
When Seattle signed Cole, I was pretty unhappy. Cole was a big, barrel-chested situational run stuffer. He became an instant starter on the Seahawks line, and the results weren't pretty. It wasn't just Cole by any stretch, but a line that was already hurting for pass rush couldn't survive a situational run stuffer starting and a tackle playing end. Or at least it couldn't last year.
This year, it's clear the Seahawks do not expect pass rush from Cole. He isn't collapsing the pocket. He isn't shooting gaps. He is staying alive near the line and then using his immense upper body strength to separate and tackle. Cole had a pretty astounding eight total tackles today. Play after play you could find Cole in the thick of the action: stout in the scrum, suddenly free to wrap and padlock secure in his tackle.
No one lets me into meetings and so I can't confirm this, but it sure seems like Cole is a 3-4 nose tackle playing in an otherwise 4-3 front. Green Bay planned to re-sign Cole and start him at nose in their 3-4, but Seattle scooped him up. Now he plays over tackle in a 4-3, but the way he is so often free to tackle, the way he almost never can be found in the opposing backfield, the way he controls and reacts rather than gaps and attacks, it sure looks like he is playing two gaps. Every part of the Seahawks defense looks better with Cole in the mix.
This is a long-winded way of giving the guy the game ball.
Like a 3-4 team, the Seahawks need to compensate for starting a designated run stuffer on their defensive line. I have some theories, but I'll save those for another day. Seattle needs to compensate for Cole, but for the first time since his signing, I can say without reservation that this team is better with Colin Cole than without. Better, it's not everything but it beats worse.
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even though it's been the case since week 2
I have to think this is finally the nail in the coffin for the diehard Matt supporters. How can sohmeone possibly play so bad and get to start next week. I would have loved to see Charlie start the game fresh instead of in mop up duty.
From The Hawks Nest - Seahawks Podcast
http://www.http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/from-the-hawks-nest/id385227705
Hugh Millen disagrees
Because Matt has “a decade of experience”. If experience is what matters, we should exhume and start George Blanda next week. It was odd on the Q13 post game they all kept chanting “best chance to win…”. I am beginning to think Hasselbeck has Jedi-like mind control powers over the weak willed.
Hopefully they’ll let Whitehurst get in a full week of practice with the first team offense for next week and then finish out the season.
I think his point was that his decade with the team has earned him the starting gig
Which is, quite frankly, completely ridiculous.
KJR is the worst
all the callers and hosts use the mantra “clearly Whitehurst is not the answer” and then quickly change topic. Yes clearly after a game and a half against the two best teams in the NFC and with an offense that lacks talent on the line Whitehurst is not the answer.
From The Hawks Nest - Seahawks Podcast
http://www.http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/from-the-hawks-nest/id385227705
by Hancock.Brett on Dec 19, 2010 5:36 PM PST up reply actions
KIRO isn't any better
Brock “glass jaw” Huard keeps on with the same tired “best chance to win” mantra and cites Matt’s long history.
I love how 3rd rate quarterbacks get to be analysts. I’d put up a picture of Sean Salisbury but I’m too fucking lazy.
KIRO employs Dave Grosby and Mike Salk.
That makes them infinitely better than KJR.
I listed to sports radio the other day for the first time in ages.
Sports radio is kind of like olives. I keep trying olives, but never with any success.
I had to turn it off when a guy came on to say that Matt wasn’t only needing a year or two resigned, but that he had 3-4 good years left in him if we put the team together to support him.
I just can’t stomach that, so I turned it off.
Just like olives, in about three or four more years, I’ll give it a try once again, and I probably wont like it.
But… there’s something to be said for not giving up on something, as long as you don’t repeat it daily expecting different results.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 19, 2010 7:02 PM PST up reply actions
I don't think we want to see that pic of Salisbury.
The original Brett Favre.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 19, 2010 6:58 PM PST up reply actions
How DOES Millen speak
AND have his lips glued to Matt’s backside every week?
John Hancock
by mrcoffee1969 on Dec 20, 2010 7:46 AM PST up reply actions
I'm mostly pissed that Forsett got only 2 carries today.
It’s a joke that he doesn’t get more touches.
Maybe if his "touches" included holding onto the ball
in the passing game, he would of gotten more opportunities.
So you focus your line on stopping the run
and force the opposition into “passing downs” and situations…
which the opposing team converts easily because of the Seahawks shit coverage.
Ridiculous coverage.
5 yards of space for receivers most of the time. Watching Tru struggle out there was brutal, then he got hurt and watching Cox was even worse. We need to add two corners this offseason.
by Woodinville_12thMan on Dec 19, 2010 5:34 PM PST up reply actions
No, the inherent problem is a pass rush that lets opposing quarterbacks have a nap, then pass at will.
Our corners will look surprisingly good (well, maybe not Jennings) when we get a rush from anyone other than Clemons.
I'd say Jennings would benefit the most.
He has zero ball skills, and forced throws and inaccurate passes will amplify what he does well—cover. He leaves the window open because of the lack of hawking; the more pass rush, generally the tighter the window. Not always. But mostly.
Love the game, love the beer, love your team.
by THolt on Dec 19, 2010 8:06 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
I think Earl Thomas is a CB playing S
Don’t know if the coaches will ever make that switch though, given we got nobody else to play FS at the moment.
Our CB position is weak
Tru isn’t the same, Jennings is a joke, T3 has potential, but our depth is paper-thin. I still can’t believe we didn’t make a deal with Pistol to keep him here. I rarely see press coverage out of any of the guys anyway.
I expect veteran savvy out of my veteran QB.
When that goes, so does my support.
If Pete starts Matt next week
I gotta say all this fresh air, young thinking bullshit was just that.
by broadbill birdwatcher on Dec 19, 2010 5:37 PM PST reply actions
I would like to here a well thought out reasonable defense of Matt after today, last week and overall this season
I don’t care if Charlie is the answer or not, Matt is not the answer, but maybe Charlie won’t give away the game.
Even if Charlie gives away the game
He will at least be a bit more exciting. Matt has just been slow death.
I honestly feel like since that game-ending interception against WA-DC Matt shouldve retired. That one pick put the nail in the coffin for me and it hasnt changed since.
7 picks for 7 quarterbacks in Draft 2011! EFF IT!
by Seatown_Sport_Head321 on Dec 19, 2010 6:16 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Back in 08 that is
7 picks for 7 quarterbacks in Draft 2011! EFF IT!
by Seatown_Sport_Head321 on Dec 19, 2010 6:17 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
In the post-game presser, Carroll was asked "who's your starting QB next week?"
and Carroll replied “I don’t know”.
I’m paraphrasing a little, but the fact he didn’t stand firmly behind Matt as he’s done after every poor game (there has been a lot, haven’t there?), says a lot.
I think it’s FINALLY sinking in that not only is Matt playing poorly, HE’S the reason the Seahawks are losing games.
"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM
Author of The Seahawks Asylum: http://seahawksblog.wordpress.com
RE: HE’S the reason the Seahawks are losing games.
That’s a huge stretch. The Seahawks are awful from top to bottom. Matt has struggled to the point that he needs to be replaced in the lineup. Beyond that, I wouldn’t start speculating about how many wins and losses have been on Matt’s shoulders. This is a flawed and broken football team regardless of who is under center.
There is no savior. Disco is dead.
I wouldn't say that Matt is the sole reason the Seahawks are losing games
But he is a large contributing factor in why they are losing so badly. The games would, if nothing else, be closer and possibly more competitive without his interceptions and fumbles.
10 interceptions in 4 games is pretty telling.
by Trojan Knight on Dec 19, 2010 8:38 PM PST up reply actions
True
But he’s also thrown 28TDs and has close to a 2:1 TD to INT ratio.
by SmartAssCoug on Dec 20, 2010 9:10 AM PST up reply actions
Also of note...
10 pro bowls, 5 first team All-Pro selections, 3 2nd team.
Oh, and one SB MVP, which of course comes with winning it.
Manning holds NFL records for consecutive seasons with over 4,000 yards passing and the most total seasons with 4,000 or more yards passing in a career. Manning holds the fifth highest career passer rating (94.9) in NFL history and the highest single-season passer rating (121.1 in 2004). He is the all-time Colts franchise leader in career wins, career passing yards, pass attempts, pass completions, and passing touchdowns.
Now you could say Matt is our all-time leader in similar numbers, but that’s over Dave Krieg and Jim Zorn, not Johnny Unitas.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 20, 2010 9:55 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Indeed; definitely not trying to equate the two of them.
Manning had a bad month but he’s still one of the greatest ever and seems to have gotten over his INT streak. Matt was a great QB (although not on Peyton’s level) but he’s been declining for quite some time now.
I know you weren't...
just wanted to put it out there in case anyone else might fall prey to that line of thinking, only for real.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 20, 2010 10:13 AM PST up reply actions
Defintely
I was more equating how the horrible month Matt has experienced cannot really be compared with the bad month Peyton has had. If one were to completely ignore both players’ historical stats, it would still be pretty clear that Matt’s recent struggles are a trend for the season, whereas Peyton’s appear to be an aberration on an otherwise typical Manning year.
by SmartAssCoug on Dec 20, 2010 10:12 AM PST up reply actions
He's the biggest reason why this team is terrible.
You could point out the o-line as a whole, sure, but Matt sure appears to have time to throw.
Sorry, bro. When your QB throw 4 picks per game, he's the reason.
Period.
"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM
Author of The Seahawks Asylum: http://seahawksblog.wordpress.com
By being so unwavering, it makes it seem as though you don't understand the dynamism of pro football.
You very well may be right, but what of situational… shit? Play calling, i.e. Force not getting the sweep/toss plays that Lynch clearly isn’t cut out for. The defense making two mental errors (that I recall). His top two receivers coming back to real game action. Tru getting hurt while it was still a ball game. Etc. Etc.
Love the game, love the beer, love your team.
by THolt on Dec 19, 2010 10:15 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Considering the team we faced
and that we were tied at halftime, this was no less than the 2nd best performance of the season that was wasted. We weren’t out and out playing better, but the Falcons were playing somewhat uninspired, and caught the kind of breaks that made me think they can’t not win the Super Bowl this year.
In some ways we outplayed SF. The team did. 2 games in a row he is specifically losing the games.
by jacobstevens on Dec 20, 2010 8:19 AM PST up reply actions
Agreed. We had a number of bad breaks go against us
The two fumbles really bounced their way, and the team was really in the game for the most part. I thought we also got screwed by the refs on a couple of the short yardage spots.
Matt really did pull a stinker. It happens. However, when the stinkers start to pile up, year after year, the few bright spots don’t outweigh the continually mediocre and sometimes outright terrible performances. I really want Matt to hang up his cleats here and not tarnish his legacy as one of the best players ever to wear a Seahawks uniform.
I think that history will be kind to Hasselbeck
Watching him struggle the last few years, it’s been tough on everyone I think. However, whether you support him or Whitehurst as the starter right now, it’s kind of irrelevant to the discussion of Hass’ place in Seahawk history, and I think a few years from now the weight of his accomplishments will overshadow these last two seasons. As John said, Hasselbeck was once a great quarterback. I would amend that slightly to read “Hasselbeck was once a great quarterback, and should be remembered as such.”
Unfortunately, Matty has this maddening habit of throwing one or two good games a year (remember Jacksonville last year? I mean, I know they were bad and all, but Matt just carved them up), which makes this a discussion rather than an agreement that it’s time for him to slide into a backup role. I’m glad PC finally put in Whitehurst. It was maybe a game too late, but it was still the right thing to do, and I hope we see more of him in the next game.
Also, I mean, we can count our blessings. As bad as the chanting was (inexcusable in my mind, for what it’s worth, I mean, c’mon) it could be worse: we could be the Redskins. That was just brutal.
It's like how now I don't feel ashamed to wear an Alexander jersey, but I would not be caught dead wearing either of mine in 2007.
My Hasselbeck jersey is retired until Matt retires, because I don’t want to support him now. But I do realize he’s the best QB in franchise history and will recognize him as such—once he retires. He’s just pulling a Griffey by continuing to go out there and stink it up.
by BrettJMiller on Dec 20, 2010 10:55 AM PST up reply actions
I don't blame Hasselbeck for continuing to play this season
The decision of who starts at QB is entirely on Carroll and the coaching staff.
But I definitely agree on the jersey thing. That sums up pretty well how I’m feeling right now.
Meh, I blame him a bit since it was clear last year that he wasn't getting any better and should retire then, but I think that's a pretty small disagreement in our arguments.
We seem mostly on the same page here.
by BrettJMiller on Dec 20, 2010 11:40 AM PST up reply actions
I'm curious to know how many QBs would still be starting without the use of their off-hand
That part makes me sick. Not as much as putting Alexander in with one arm, but still.. if the guy is injured, LET HIM RECOVER ON THE SIDELINES! That is why teams keep backups right?
I don't see how having a broken left hand really affects the performance of a right-handed quarter back other than the fact that the snap may hurt his hand for an instant.
by BrettJMiller on Dec 20, 2010 12:03 PM PST up reply actions
Or at least try to fend off a defender
(or secure the ball, or catch a bad snap, or…)
I can’t imagine trying to play in the NFL with a broken wrist or hand. It is hard enough fully healthy. Especially at the “skill” positions.
Even if he sticks around past his expiration date and has a terrible year next year, in time the legacy will be untarnished.
Just like Griffey.
10 years from now, I wont be thinking about Griffey’s last season and a half in Seattle, I’ll look back with warm memories on his time as “the Kid” in Seattle.
And I’ll look back with warm memories of Hasselbeck in 2003-2007 as well, when I felt like we had a chance in every game because our QB could make some things happen.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 20, 2010 9:58 AM PST up reply actions
I hope you're right.
Part of me thinks some fans won’t ever forget though. People still mock me when I wear my SA jersey (It’s only been 4 seasons, so doesn’t diminish your point), which completely ticks me off.
We may forget it, but it still happened. That by itself sucks.
While that sucks, I guess if the player or their coach had known that the player sucked, these discussions wouldn't happen.
For some reason, coaches and players are the last ones to realize when a player’s career is over.
by BrettJMiller on Dec 20, 2010 10:57 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah, well fuck them.
Anyone that wants to mock you for wearing the jersey of a likely HoF level candidate with numbers like that, then fuck them. Shaun had his faults, but he was a great running back, and league MVP.
You’d think we’re the fucking Yankees or something, with walls and walls of HoF plaques and a litany of league MVP’s. We have a very short list of nationally recognized great players, and Shaun was without a doubt for right or wrong, one of them. If a fan is too stupid to recognize that, then fuck them.
Seriously.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 20, 2010 11:00 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
How bout the late squib kick kickoff
that, within a space of about 18 inches total with a pylon in the middle, could have given the Seahawks starting drive position at the 20 or the 40 and just barely got behind the pylon to start us at the 20?
That 2nd Snelling fumble didn’t just get recovered by them. It didn’t just also give them a 1st down. It extended what at that moment was a stalled drive. Just amazing. They are winning the Super Bowl.
by jacobstevens on Dec 20, 2010 10:13 AM PST up reply actions
I think he understands Matt's lost us some games
I think the big question was whether Matt was going to be able to turn it around or not. The question is not “How is Matt playing?” but “How will Matt be able to play once things get clicking for him (and how long does that take)?”
While Matt had a couple of strong games recently, he’s had a couple of horrible games even more recently. Right now, I think change for change’s sake may be in order.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Dec 19, 2010 7:02 PM PST up reply actions
Sadly, I don't think he'll want the chance to turn it around now
I think the boos and the Charlie chant may have permanently broken his spirit. Never seen anyone look so demoralized.
This is far more uncomfortable to watch than Shaun’s end.
I think there's a good chance he'll be playing for somebody else next year
Unless he gets some starts and suddenly starts to play us into the playoffs.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Dec 19, 2010 7:24 PM PST up reply actions
It was painful for me.
And I’m of course one of the chief proponents of letting Charlie play.
When the chant happened I was so god damn pissed that it’s come to this, that it was mismanaged this badly that the home crowd turned on Matt. And we have to call it what it was. It wasn’t a celebration of Charlie, it was a huge affront, a massive open faced slap to the face of the greatest QB the franchise has ever had.
Just a sad sad day.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 19, 2010 8:27 PM PST up reply actions
I blame the coaching staff for letting this drag out so long.
certainly after last week, Charlie should have started against the Falcons. Not because he gave us the best chance to win now, but because Matt at QB gives the other team the best chance to win now.
John Hancock
by mrcoffee1969 on Dec 20, 2010 7:57 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Always sucks watching your great hope on the shoot down.
Griffey, for example.
Love the game, love the beer, love your team.
by THolt on Dec 19, 2010 10:17 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
I'm not sure this is quite comparable to Griffey
I would argue that Matt can still play the game at a level higher than Griffey could have, relatively speaking of course.
But then, he never had as high of a ceiling as Griffey either, so the difference is magnified.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 20, 2010 10:14 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah.
Somewhere between the troposphere and stratosphere.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 20, 2010 10:47 AM PST up reply actions
Did he ever hit the roof of the Kingdome?
by SmartAssCoug on Dec 20, 2010 11:30 AM PST up reply actions
Josh Hamilton simply looked to the left.
Which was a mistake— he should have known better, given his experience. The pipe is always passed around the room clockwise.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 20, 2010 11:51 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm not sure I buy that.
Matt Hasselbeck, last 4 games: 74/126, 58.7% completions, 4 TD, 10 INT, 867 yards, 216.74 yds/gm, 4 fumbles, 3 lost. That’s averaging 3.25 turnovers per game in this span.
You can say that it’s cherry picking four games, and you’d be right. However, it appears that for the last 3 years Hasselbeck gets worse as the season goes on, probably in part due to him being pretty old for an NFL player. Durability and being able to hold up in the face of the grind of an NFL season is important, and for years now Matt has shown he can’t do it.
He also turned the ball over 9 times in his first 8 games. Not terrible, but not great either. All told, Hasselbeck has had 3 games this year where he hasn’t turned the ball over. Six of his fourteen games have had him turn the ball over twice or more. I’m not sure how this is any better than Griffey batting .190 for the M’s this year. Sure, Griffey had a 1/4 with a 2B game or a 1/1 with a game winning single, but like Griffey, Hasselbeck’s good days do not outweigh his bad ones. Even if Whitehurst is just like Mike Sweeney, Sweeney even was an upgrade over Griffey, even though he too wasn’t very good. It’s hard to argue that Has
by BrettJMiller on Dec 20, 2010 11:12 AM PST up reply actions
He should have retired after last year.
Llama's cut/release list:
Terrill, Trufant, Jennings, Locklear, Hasselbeck, Andrews, and so many more
by Wayward Llama on Dec 20, 2010 4:48 AM PST up reply actions
This year has sucked enough after dealing with Griffey hanging on for a season too long.
Adding Matt on top of it is just brutal.
by BrianL on Dec 20, 2010 7:35 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Very few athletes retire a year too early instead of a year too late
Jim Brown, Barry Sanders, Elway, they seem to be the exceptions. Rarely is our last image of the player something to match his career legacy. It usually goes down this way, watching a once great player struggle.
by SmartAssCoug on Dec 20, 2010 9:14 AM PST up reply actions
Edgar Martinez, Ted Williams...
There are guys that know when to go…they’re usually the ones without huge egos, except in Ted Williams’ case, where the ego of being the greatest made him retire before he embarrassed himself.
by BrettJMiller on Dec 20, 2010 11:15 AM PST up reply actions
Hasselbeck's ego is a healthy size.
For the record.
This wooden soul of mine, it cannot ever climb from places it has fallen: In between where light can shine. It never falls in line, it barely has a spine, like branches severed from the vine. Like it was faulty by design.
If the boos and Charlie chants didn't break his spirit
maybe his own shitty play did?
John Hancock
by mrcoffee1969 on Dec 20, 2010 7:55 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Pete has to say "I don't know".
You don’t announce that that your starting quarterback is being benched before speaking to him privately. Unless of course you are Mike Shanahan and classless. Charlie will start next week, I’m sure.
by NinjaHawk on Dec 19, 2010 7:28 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Up to this point, Carroll has very firmly backed Matt Hasselbeck.
This is the first time there’s been any question/mystery.
"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM
Author of The Seahawks Asylum: http://seahawksblog.wordpress.com
Right.
And this week, he didn’t firmly back him because Matt is not going to play against Tampa. But he can’t say “Yes, I am going to bench Matt” before he actually benches him. To let Matt find out he’s being demoted during the post-game interview along with everyone else would have been classless.
He is most certainly not the only reason.
His strength is his head. That particular forte requires time to utilize. Not that I’m a fanboy. I’m just not convinced either way regarding Matt v. Clipboard Jesus. They both suck.
Love the game, love the beer, love your team.
by THolt on Dec 19, 2010 8:09 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
You don't know that Charlie sucks.
He’s played barely 5 quarters in his career.
"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM
Author of The Seahawks Asylum: http://seahawksblog.wordpress.com
by Nick Andron on Dec 19, 2010 8:12 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
He's up to somewhere between 7-7.5 now, I think.
Definitely enough to make definitive conclusions, of course.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 19, 2010 8:30 PM PST up reply actions
Huh? 4 in the Giants game, and 1.5 in this game.
Am I missing something? One series in another game when Hass was shaken up. Doesn’t count as a quarter.
"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM
Author of The Seahawks Asylum: http://seahawksblog.wordpress.com
He had 1.5 or so in the Arizona game too.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 19, 2010 8:49 PM PST up reply actions
Charlie played for 2 series in the 2nd half of the Arizona game
Plus a kneel down at halftime.
IF IT IS TRUE THEN WE ARE SO SCREWED
I thought he had more time than that... my bad then.
Shame on me, giving him an extra quarter or so with which to pass judgement.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 20, 2010 10:00 AM PST up reply actions
Point taken.
From what I saw, they both suck. No one can possibly say the latter is still learning the offense, and the last three drives weren’t about timing issues. This is the conclusion I have personally drawn in watching CW. We have nothing else to go on and at this stage in Hawks’ evolution, some conclusions must be drawn. Here’s to him proving me wrong.
Love the game, love the beer, love your team.
by THolt on Dec 20, 2010 1:12 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
charlie sucks?
your really going to say that charlie sucks? how many qbs have been any good after so little playing time? Both mannings had rough starts but are either elite to good now, matt sat behind favre then got benched in favor of dilfer. breese sucked it up in sd, enough they picked up rivers. while charlie may not be our qb of the future, im sad to say matt is washed up, and its past time to give charlie a shot. whats the worst that can happen, we loose the last two games and have a good shot at drafting a qb?
by JHOIII on Dec 20, 2010 9:56 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Hey now...
we’ve had a full 5 quarters with which to judge. That’s enough time to show all, ask anyone.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 20, 2010 10:02 AM PST up reply actions
Didn't "The Zombies" say?
It’s the Time of the Season………… Seriously, is there a more symbolically perfect time for Clipboard Jesus to start than the day after Christmas?
At this point it seems like six of one and half a dozen of the other with regard to who starts.
It seems that there has to be some middle ground between Whitehurst who can throw a stronger & harder ball yet is inaccurate versus Hasselbeck whose soft tosses and lack of ability to elude defenders with his broken wing makes him a mere shadow of his 2005 form. Whitehurst has a better chance of improving his game than Hasselbeck does. Although by this point, if Whitehurst lacks the touch to throw an accurate short pass then he might never be able to improve that component of his game.
I think Carroll came in knowing he couldn't replace Matt without losing the either the locker room, fan support or both.
I think Carroll has let Matt play his way out of the starting position. Carroll gave Matt every opportunity to show that he can be a difference maker instead he has shown his weaknesses. The fact Matt has been injured 3 years in a row wont help his case. More distressing to me than the inability to the physically play the position is the poor decision making that I think receivers have largely been getting the blame for.
by Trojan Knight on Dec 19, 2010 8:49 PM PST up reply actions
No, the time is not right.
That’s Denny Green territory. You have to wait until Tell the Truth Monday at the soonest, and probably not until Tuesday when the players practice and get the outline of the gameplan. It was the right thing to do.
by jacobstevens on Dec 20, 2010 8:21 AM PST up reply actions
If Pete knows that a change is coming
he absolutely did the right thing by not saying anything during the post-game presser. Handle it behind closed doors, away from the press first.
The Denny Green moment is actually more my favorite than
“who we thought they were/crown their ass.”
“Matt’s gonna start next week, that’s not an emotional decision, I had a lot of time to think about it on the sidelines while we were losing very badly.”
by jacobstevens on Dec 20, 2010 10:18 AM PST up reply actions
If you liked that...
then this is the greatest win of all time.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 20, 2010 10:49 AM PST up reply actions
There is a deep irony here...
…in that starting CW the next two games means the Seahawks will likely make the post season.
The defense and ST play well enough to win. Competent play at the QB position would have already given them that additional win they need to make the post-season. With CW, there is a fair chance they beat Tampa and/or the Rams and make it.
With that, there is some chance the Seahawks show well in the play-offs. Having a QB that can make the big play can make all the difference.
I fervently hope (the part of me that isn’t worried about draft position) that CW starts the next two games and puts Seattle into the play-offs.
I am thoroughly, thoroughly fucking tired of this Matt/Charlie narrative
In particular because of how it has divided the fanbase and turned the last 8-9 game threads into who should be our QB pissing matches.
So I guess I’m mostly anxious for next season, when neither of the two will be under center.
by jhmg16 on Dec 19, 2010 6:48 PM PST via mobile reply actions
There's no reason to think that Charlie isn't in the plans for next year
Either as a backup competing for snaps or as a (shudder) starter with a developmental guy sitting behind him.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Dec 19, 2010 7:03 PM PST up reply actions
Nor is there any reason to believe as of yet that Matt wont be under center.
As frustrating as it is that I have to type that.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 19, 2010 7:06 PM PST up reply actions
He's not under contract and he's may close out the year on the bench
There’s a chance he’ll be back, but its a lot less likely than Charlie returning.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Dec 19, 2010 7:08 PM PST up reply actions
Oh I know.
Just saying that it’s clear as mudd.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 19, 2010 8:30 PM PST up reply actions
Why shudder?
Go back and look at Matt’s first few games as a starter in 2001. He didn’t break a 55 passer rating until his 4th game.
Charlie has potential but is raw
There’s no way he should be the most polished QB on the roster.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Dec 19, 2010 7:23 PM PST up reply actions
I was sick of the Whitehurst/Hasselbeck debate months ago and I stopped talking about it
Really the debate is about as inane as 49er fans debating Troy Smith or Alex Smith.
Well it's not inane. Maybe distasteful.
Who starts at quarterback is pretty dang important for every team in the NFL.
I think we have a good shot at winning today if Charlie was starting.
The defense was playing fairly well and we were running the ball. All Charlie has to do is not lose… which has been Matt’s greatest problem.
The defense couldn't stop the pass to save its life.
This wooden soul of mine, it cannot ever climb from places it has fallen: In between where light can shine. It never falls in line, it barely has a spine, like branches severed from the vine. Like it was faulty by design.
It's pretty high on the insignificant QB controversies
Maybe not as inane as the Gelbaugh/Stouffer debate. But it’s up there.
I wish I could understand how it is insignificant.
Because it seems damn significant to me, and most of us here. We’re talking about the God damn quarterback, for chrissakes!!!!!
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 19, 2010 8:33 PM PST up reply actions
None of the above.
I wanted to put in Dan McGuire, because his brother was a better hitter than was either Gelbaugh or Stouffer, and I saw him light up someone in a college game the year before.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 19, 2010 8:51 PM PST up reply actions
The best part is the fans that call for Nate Davis.
Kind of reminds me of the Mike Teel fans from last year.
by Mind of no mind on Dec 19, 2010 11:16 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah,
as crazy as it was, people would even call into some of the radio shows to argue that he should get a chance to start.
by Mind of no mind on Dec 19, 2010 11:33 PM PST up reply actions
It's not particularly crazy.
Matt was awful for stretches last year, and we were out of the playoffs, so why not find out what we have? As it is he was an utterly wasted sixth round pick.
Yep, no reason for him to sit.
Llama's cut/release list:
Terrill, Trufant, Jennings, Locklear, Hasselbeck, Andrews, and so many more
by Wayward Llama on Dec 20, 2010 4:51 AM PST up reply actions
I was one
tbh his rocket arm was just fun. And 14 is a good QB number.
This wooden soul of mine, it cannot ever climb from places it has fallen: In between where light can shine. It never falls in line, it barely has a spine, like branches severed from the vine. Like it was faulty by design.
I was a Teel fan
He had a decent arm… Would have been nice to see what he could do with it.
I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
Damn
Matt flynn looks really good. The NE defence isnt good and has a lot better WRs than Seattles other than Mike but I don’t like seeing 1 team have 2 fundamentally better QB’s than all of Seattle’s.
Was at the game, way up in the rafters
So I was able to see quite a bit.
My observations (caveat: we were walking up the ramps to our seats during the initial TD drive so I didn’t get to see it):
- This defense can’t stop anybody. Ryan rarely got pressured, and he was able to pick us apart. If memory serves, ATL didn’t punt until the third quarter, and didn’t have a 3-and-out until the middle of the 4th.
- Kennard Cox had a horrific game. Torched repeatedly on D, big block in the back on special teams.
- We have no running game. Who gets the ball doesn’t matter much if at all; watching from above, there were no holes. Really, nothing at all.
- I did not see a wide receiver that was even a tiny bit open the entire game. Every pass was contested, and whoever it was that was covering WIlliams was awesome. That pick was one of the better ones I’ve ever seen.
- I think the sack/fumble for TD pretty much summed up the season. Call for a rollout, have a lineman let the defender in untouched. The Hasselbeck of a few years ago gets away, but today he just doesn’t have the mobility, not to mention the fact that he only has one good hand to fight back and it’s the one holding the ball. Missed assignment leaves your injured, aging QB all by himself in the end zone. Ballgame.
The difference between Whitehurst and Hasselbeck seems to be two fold:
- he has a stronger arm, which enabled him to get enough zip on passes to get it into tight coverage. I expect to see him throw a lot of INTs where he forces it into coverage, thinking he can get away with it.
- he’s more mobile/faster. The TD drive basically came down to him be able to run for his life a little better than Hass would have in the same situation down around the goal line.
Bottom line for me:
Hass should probably be shelved for the season, if for no other reason than he’s not healthy enough to get out of tough situations. That said, Whitehurst isn’t going to be a big upgrade. He’s basically a stronger-armed, less experienced Hasselbeck. Whether he is more talented, I have no idea.
None of this even matters imo. People who think bringing in Clipboard Jesus as your starter are delusional. He will make very little difference if your defense is giving up point on literally every drive and your receivers can’t get open and drop the ball on the rare occasion you get the ball to them.
by surfmonkey89 on Dec 19, 2010 7:32 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I agree with most of what you said
But the D actually showed me that they can be competitive against good offenses (even now) if the offense maintains drives. ATL went for it on 4th twice and the QB sneak for the first was complete BS. He gained nothing. Plus that fumble that bounced right to roddy white was 1: completely lucky and 2: if he hadn’t fumbled, I might be remembering it wrong, but I think it would have been short on 3rd down. They definetly need to get off the field on 3rd more but that can almost be made 50% better by just upgrading jennings’ CB position.
Obviously I had no angle on the 4th down play
I was five rows from the top, over by one of the corners. It looked like it could have gone either way, but you were sitting closer than I was so I’ll take your word for it :)
Ryan just put on a clinic. He threw a deep out in the 2nd quarter that was as pretty a pass as you’ll ever see, and the touchdown at the end of the half couldn’t have been placed any better. I would love to know how the WR got back both of our guys on that one though.
Fumble goes 15yds and bounces right to their guy, Hasselbeck gets facemasked in the end zone and no call, their punt kicks right and ends up inside the five, then their kickoff rolls just into the endzone instead of out at the 1. It just went on and on.
by surfmonkey89 on Dec 19, 2010 7:53 PM PST up reply actions
Could it be?
That Whitehurst looked better than Hasselbeck because he was playing in 4th Quater mop up time when Atlanta was way ahead and not play as agressive on defense? That situation can make any back up look like Joe Montana. Let’s just be honest the Seahawks right now are just not a very good\consistent team. There is a lot of potential for the future. The only reason we are even in the playoff hunt is because we play in the worst division in football. But with St. Louis on the rise and the 49ers a QB away from being very competitive the Seahawks definitely have a lot of work to do, but I am confident that we will fill the holes that need to be filled. First and foremost for next season is QB, however for this season I stand firmly behind Hasselbeck.
The New York Islanders....they make opposing goalies look gooooood.
Whitehurst's physical abilities can't be denied
And fact of the matter is he got away a good throw under pressure to Carlson, showed mobility, and didn’t look like a 90 year old trying to run out there.
Whitehurst played better than Hasselbeck and I’m not really understanding the reasoning behind supporting Hasselbeck anymore.
Accustomed to mediocrity.
by SSreporters on Dec 19, 2010 7:52 PM PST up reply actions 6 recs
Support vs irrelevance
There’s a difference between “supporting Hasselbeck” and having the opinion that who plays QB on this team is irrelevant because they’re too bad all over for it to matter.
I’ve been a supporter of Hass, but it’s probably time to go to Whitehurst if for no other reason than Hass is too injured to go on and you might as well give Whitehurst some reps.
Don’t be surprised if Whitehurst looks like crap and gets hurt himself though. There’s no running game, no receivers that can get open and little pass protection; Peyton Manning wouldn’t have done any better today.
by surfmonkey89 on Dec 19, 2010 7:57 PM PST up reply actions
Pass protection has been decent this season.
Other than the hand, Matt is as healthy as he’s been in three or four years.
This line has only been bad in pass protection twice
Against the Raiders and then against the Rams.
Accustomed to mediocrity.
Other way around
Vs the rams, and then later against Oakland :)
"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM
Author of The Seahawks Asylum: http://seahawksblog.wordpress.com
Fair enough.
"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM
Author of The Seahawks Asylum: http://seahawksblog.wordpress.com
I don't care if Whitehurst looks like crap
I need to know now.
And while this has nothing to do with your argument, I am done with the idea that we need to keep Hass, then draft a QB so that QB can learn under Hass’ wing. No. I’m tired of this crap. Matt Ryan, Sam Bradford, Peyton Manning, to an extent Josh Freeman (because Leftweich sucked), and Mark Sanchez are all performing at an average-to-excellent level having been thrust to the starting spot in their first year.
Accustomed to mediocrity.
Fine by me
Might as well find out what we’ve got.
Of course, if Whitehurst sucks no one gets to blame the WRs, lack of running game, etc.
Deal?
BTW, are you suggesting the Whitehurst is as good as any of the ones you’ve listed?
by surfmonkey89 on Dec 19, 2010 8:18 PM PST up reply actions
I would assume he's talking about the QB we would draft
In the first round next year.
by splintrdmind on Dec 19, 2010 8:20 PM PST up reply actions
No I'm referring to any QB we draft next year
And if Whitehurst sucks then he sucks.
Accustomed to mediocrity.
You're complaining.
Youre complaining about Matt sucking because of the WR’s, lack of run game, etc… Seriously?
by PhoneHomeET29 on Dec 20, 2010 2:51 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
My comment is a little confusing.
Earlier in the thread he was complaining that Matt sucked ecause of the receivers and lack of run game. Now he’s saying if Charlie sucks he doesn’t want to hear that it’s because of the receivers and lack of run game. I was just pointing out what he was doing earlier in the thread with Matt with what he doesn’t wantto hear later with Charlie.
by PhoneHomeET29 on Dec 21, 2010 1:39 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
I Agree
I mean it’s pro football, not a day care or a tickle fight. Get in there and figure out. A think a guy either has confidence or he doesn’t, his own successes of failures be damned.
Does Tim Tebow strike you as someone who is going to lose confidence because the road gets a little rocky?
This was the difference between Leaf and Manning I think.
Most of my cliches aren't original.
- Chuck Knox
Oh no...
how did we manage a Tebow comment in this thread?!?
That’s our answer! Trade for Tebow!!! A true messiah, not a clipboard Jesus, but the 2nd coming itself.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 20, 2010 10:04 AM PST up reply actions
Also, for the record, QB's are the alpha male leaders of the football field.
You RARELY see a QB who loses confidence, even if they should. Did Matt lose confidence when instead of “taking the ball and going to score” he threw a pick6?
Did Ryan Leaf EVER lose confidence, even when all evidence should have pointed him to the fact that his extreme overconfidence was, instead of a blessing, a curse to his play (and life?)
Just because Tebow is a nice guy and won a ton of games in college, does not mean his confidence is a blessing, or a curse. David Greene won a ton of games in college. So did Troy Smith. So did Vince Young. All looked confident on the college field, and all have had moments looking not so good in the NFL world.
Confidence is, at the NFL level, assumed.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 20, 2010 10:08 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I disagree
I think a lot of QBs have had everything handed to them and lack the character and true confidence (which comes from ultimately having something more important in your life than football) to handle the heavy pressure and negative media attention when things go south in the NFL. Most played college at perrenial powers (8-4 is a bad year) and were gods at the high school level.
Their human. The idea that QBs never lose their confidence is hogwash.
Most of my cliches aren't original.
- Chuck Knox
Hmm.
How do you know QB’s have had everything handed to them? And how is Tebow different? He was handed a national championship caliber team with NFL WR’s Andre Caldwell, and Percy Harvin, fringe NFL linemen Phil Trautwein, NFL TE Cornelius Ingram and a schedule that routinely included such stalwarts and powerhouses as Florida International and The Citadel, and of course, the absolute mancrush of Thom Brennaman.
The idea that Tim Tebow has true character and true confidence is just as iffy as the idea that others do not. For one thing, we’ve never actually seen him against a stacked deck. He’s always been out in front, so you really have no idea whether he can handle heavy pressure and negative media when the hounds are unleashed. Thus far he’s been the opposite, the media darling.
Not that he hasn’t been good while in front. But to say his ability wasn’t handed to him is simply laughable. At 6’4" 245 and super fast, I’m sure he struggled to ever get an honest chance while growing up, and was never looked at by coaches. I’m sure his confidence came from a higher place, not from being the strongest fastest biggest kid in the playground who tasted success through winning at a young age.
“Something more important in your life than football.”
Sounds like you want a QB to be morally pure, and have something else “bigger” planned on Sundays. That’s fine. But it has absolutely no bearing on a person’s ability to play football.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 20, 2010 12:18 PM PST up reply actions
Sounds like you want a QB to be morally pure, and have something else "bigger" planned on Sundays.
This is a wild assumption and is indicative of your entire post(s). If it’s any of your business, I’m an athiest. However, players that seem to have nothing but football in their lives are, imo, risks. Education, family, or I suppose religion. Personally, I believe that if football is the most important thing in your life, you are slightly disturbed. And I DO think it has bearing on a player’s long term ability to play football and confidence. Confidence comes from the knowledge that you don’t need this, be it a job, money, women, whatever.
For what it’s worth, I like the way Tebow’s handled the media. I think he’s handled it brilliantly his whole career, including the ADVERSITY he drummed up simply for stating his opinion.
Most of my cliches aren't original.
- Chuck Knox
I could care less what your religious preference is...
And the same goes for players. Unless they are raging pagan cannibals, I don’t care.
But you implicitly presume to know that Tebow’s life doesn’t revolve around football, but (apparently) other players does? It’s all entirely speculative, no less so than my comment after reading your words.
Unless you know a player personally, or are close to people who are close to a player, you know NOTHING about a player’s life away from the field, outside what the media has shown us.
Yet you presume because Tebow performed well in college at a top tier powerhouse that he has those “intangibles.”
If your job is the most important thing in your life, generally that means you may live a lonely life but you do your job well. Particularly when your job may last on average 3-5 years, in your early years? Why not go do that job with 100% focus, to the best of your ability for that short run, be it 1 year or 10.
C’mon. Many players dedicate themselves like that, before settling down later in life. In your 20’s and early 30’s you can be perfectly high functioning while focusing on your job as the number one thing in your life. Doesn’t make you disturbed, it simply improves your odds of being good at what you do. Doesn’t make it right or wrong, and I could care less whether they do that or get married, and/or finish their degree or go someplace other than a football field on Sundays.
Great example— Kelly Jennings has a degree in finance and is pursuing a second in business management. He’s incredibly well rounded. Every report I’ve ever heard on him speaks of him as a good person, a class act, yadda yadda etc. etc.
And a crappy football player.
I’d rather he spent more time working on his hands and cover skills and less on his business acumen.
And I don’t have a problem with how Tebow’s handled the media, but you have to be kidding me if you think there’s been much adversity in regard to him and the (mainstream) media. He’s been handled with kid gloves— they LOVE him. If you want to talk about handling adversity from the media, take a look at Mike Vick. He has handled the media far better in the past 2 years, under far tougher circumstances than Tim Tebow will ever face.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 21, 2010 1:08 AM PST up reply actions
Re: Tebow
That football is not His Highest his highest priority is not speculative at all. In Tebow’s own words:
“For me, every day includes four things: God, family, academics and football, in that order.”
To return slightly from the tangent, I think that one can look at Vince Young as an example of a QB who does need kid gloves and did lose confidence.
To return all the way to the original point: Yes, for crying out loud, start Charlie and let him sink or swim.
So football already moved up to number 3 on the list.
And that’s an easy list, and not even original.
He’s stealing it from Vince Lombardi, via Jimmy V’s memorable ESPY speech.
So yeah, I’m just not buying the speculation. He seems genuine. But on Azimeir’s point on being disturbed by putting football number one, I give you Michael Jordan. Competitiveness was number 1, basketball number 2 and family a distant 3. I would have no problem with the Michael Jordan of football, whoever he is, being on the Seahawks and leading us forward.
And in fact, I think you have to be a little disturbed to play football at all. I mean, you are going out there and doing a job in which you could be killed, are certainly going to be maimed, and have no guarantee of a job next week. That’s disturbing.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 21, 2010 8:33 AM PST up reply actions
I never said trade for Tebow
But there’s no question you’ll get that kid’s best every down.
My overall point is that handling QBs with kid gloves – “you don’t want him to lose confidence” – is a waste of time. Adversity is part of the job. Grab a helmet.
Most of my cliches aren't original.
- Chuck Knox
I don't know
But there’s no question you’ll get that kid’s best every down.
I think we tend to equate success with effort too often.
I don't really wanna go down this rabbithole
But one really shouldn’t be so unquestioning of a player’s effort.
Nor should you question other's effort.
Matt Hasselbeck is as intense a competitor as you will see. So was Zorn. And Krieg? Hell, his college was so NOT a football factor that it doesn’t even exist anymore. I ask you to tell me a time when ANY of them didn’t give their best on every down.
UGH. Azimeir, your argument is so wrong on so many levels.
And now you are talking about adversity being part of the job? Then Florida should have taken the kid gloves off as well. You do realize they haven’t played a non-league regular season game out of the state of Florida since George Bush SENIOR was president, right? You do realize they pad their stats against crap schools that give up home games for a paycheck from Florida, right? You do realize that Tebow never had to deal with the kind of adversity that pretty much every player from every school NOT named USC, Texas, LSU, Alabama or Florida had to deal with? Things like, oh, I don’t know, a lack of surrounding talent. Florida has so many 4 and 5 star recruits, they can map the constellations of the entire night sky.
And there is nothing wrong with that. But don’t say that they won because of Tebow’s heart, grit and determination.
Hell, the greatest game I’ve ever seen a single player have on the college field was Vince Young vs. USC in the National Championship game of … I think it was 06. And in that game, a guy who has been condemned on the pro stage for lacking determination took his team on his shoulders and carried them.
Most NFL QB’s, and make no mistake, most professional QB’s are professional, give their best all the time. Derek Anderson gives his all. Doesn’t make him better because of it. And frankly, I wouldn’t be suprised if the longer after they take the “kid gloves” off, the more he looks like Derek Anderson statistically.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 20, 2010 12:32 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
For the top paragraph:
We don’t know. We just don’t know. Although I am inclined to agree with you about those players. But it’s too unquantifiable and therefore not really worth fighting over. I just hate absolute statements.
Agreed wholeheartedly.
As you know, I was questioning the original poster’s absolutes…
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 20, 2010 1:01 PM PST up reply actions
I'm sorry.
I didn’t mean to put words in your mouth. But Tim Tebow as an NFL QB is terribly controversial. He’s done nothing to deserve the praise that’s been heaped on him, and with that excessive praise, yes, there is the blow back of mockery. I hope I haven’t mocked HIM as a person— but have focused on others unreasonable expectation and affection, and of course, his lack of NFL QB ability at this point.
He was a HELL of a college QB, on the strength of his legs and an amazing supporting cast. I’m just not buying the man-love so many people have for him.
He’s a QB who was drafted in the first round (and was part of the reason the coach that reached for him was already fired) despite having a glaring weakness for an NFL QB prospect— not having throwing mechanics.
Imagine a 1st round pick WR who can’t catch, or a MLB who can’t tackle…
He was a great player, but got too much credit for the efforts of his teammates. Click on that link I put up above. It highlights Brenneman’s unprofessional man crush, but it does more than that, it (in a humorous way) points out the errors in the “Tebow carries Florida” argument in summary of the national championship game.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 21, 2010 1:20 AM PST up reply actions
I don't disagree with much of this
Although I’m not sure that Tebow is a QB who can’t throw. Will he ever be a successful NFL QB? I have no idea. I’m not advocating taking character in lieu of talent, merely weighing it as one factor. For instance, part of Luck’s attractiveness over Newton’s at this point has to be the Stanford education versus the myriad of off-field question marks. Sometimes those questions marks are completely unfounded (Warren Sapp), sometimes they’re worth the headache (Randy Moss), sometimes they crash and burn (Lawrence Phillips).
I think it’s pretty safe to say that Newton needs football more than Luck does. I am basing this on the fact that Luck will be graduating with a degree from Stanford while Newton has attended three colleges in pursuit of the best football opportunity and should he be a part of the draft this spring would still not have a degree. For speculation’s sake, however, if when the ‘Hawks draft and Newton’s sitting there unpicked in the mid teens (he won’t be) would I be pissing myself for Seattle to take him? You’re Goddamn right I would.
As Tebow goes, I simply think that if you took football away (playing, that is, once and for all) he’d move on to his next thing in life. In a different way, it’s like when Steve Young could play (and ultimately walk away from the game early for health reasons) with the knowledge, “fuck it, I can always go practice law if I want.”
I completely understand and agree with you that Tebow gets a lot of man-love. I don’t care about that. He also gets a lot of blowback and undeserved hate (as you pointed out), people discrediting what he did accomplish while at Florida. I don’t really care about that either. I try to use my own eyes and ears, and I like the kid. I hope he does well. There are worse things that could happen than for a kid to say, “when I grow up, I wanna be like Tim Tebow” assuming he doesn’t get caught with an eightball and a hooker at some point. =)
Oh, and NO college player deserves the praise heaped on them coming out in the first round.
Most of my cliches aren't original.
- Chuck Knox
Well said.
And this I “get” much more than where I misperceived you were going earlier.
Nice Lawrence Phillips reference by the way. Have you ever seen the draft video from when he was selected. Kiper and Theismann go back and forth on him, and it’s pretty damn interesting.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 21, 2010 10:08 AM PST up reply actions
You've put so many words in my mouth...
I can’t begin to defend them.
All my original point was in support of playing Charlie Whitehurst whether he’s ready or not.
Most of my cliches aren't original.
- Chuck Knox
On that, you and I can agree.
Play Charlie and let him succeed or fail.
On Tebow, we’re miles and miles apart.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 21, 2010 1:09 AM PST up reply actions
But I never took a position on Tebow
Other than that he’s a high character guy essentially. I don’t know him or Vince Young, but based on the information at hand, I don’t think Tebow would ever inflict the overall drama that Young has on the Titans. Speculative? Sure. But I don’t think it’s wildly speculative.
I never said Tebow was nor would be great.
I never said trade for Tebow.
I never said others were not high character guys, except Leaf (and now Young), and if that’s news I need to reevaluate my entire football pantheon and belief GPS.
Most of my cliches aren't original.
- Chuck Knox
But imagine Whitehurst and Tebow on the same team!!!
Jesus and Jesus’ favorite player, on the same sideline, in QB meetings. None could stand before our might!
by SmartAssCoug on Dec 20, 2010 11:58 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I'd rather have Matt and Jake on the same team.
Seattle sports fan heaven.
This wooden soul of mine, it cannot ever climb from places it has fallen: In between where light can shine. It never falls in line, it barely has a spine, like branches severed from the vine. Like it was faulty by design.
Yeah, maybe.
I definitely have a limit on what I would trade for him.
by jacobstevens on Dec 20, 2010 1:06 PM PST up reply actions
Agreed. But now that McDaniels is gone
we couldn’t get some fantastic deal for him.
I mean, think of how great it would be if we could get Tebow for two glazed Krispy Kreme’s and Sean Locklear?
by jubelthebear on Dec 20, 2010 1:16 PM PST up reply actions
I'd rather have the donuts.
They have smaller holes than Tebow’s game.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 20, 2010 1:53 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
The old Peyton Manning line.
I call B.S. Pass protection has been good all season. The run game started good, but Matt couldn’t keep it going,because he does need to complete passes in order to get 1st downs. I want a new QB period, not because Matt is too “injured” or just to give Charlie some reps, but because Matt is injury prone, old, and not accurate. Also because Charlie is inexperienced, not very good, and has a wild arm. Pass protection gas looked above average, everyone had plenty of time.
by PhoneHomeET29 on Dec 20, 2010 2:48 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
How good was the pass protection against Oakland? Against the Rams?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Dec 20, 2010 9:39 AM PST up reply actions
Bad.
That’s been it. 2 out of 14 games. LARGE SAMPLE!
Accustomed to mediocrity.
by SSreporters on Dec 20, 2010 10:12 AM PST up reply actions
How good has the line play been the other games?
Above average, especially for a savvy vet that protects the ball and is skilled in reading defenses. Have you not been impressed the majority of time in pass protection or do those two games define the OL for the season?
by PhoneHomeET29 on Dec 21, 2010 1:43 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
There have been really good periods and really bad periods
To say that the OL has played well all year completely ignores some of the ugliest games in recent memory.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Dec 21, 2010 9:28 AM PST up reply actions
We mentioned John Carlson and catch in the same sentence this week
Bout time.
Dear Paul Allen, cap-less year, massive front loaded contracts? Not one owner can outbid you....
I'm worried about Carlson's tenure in Seattle
Especially if Morrah continues to develop.
Accustomed to mediocrity.
2 TE's that can stretch the seem with hands
I seem to remember hearing something about someone liking 2 TE sets. How much has Matt targeted Carlson this year when hes actually running a route, not blocking? Whitehurst threw to him almost immediately. Wonder if that means something.
Dear Paul Allen, cap-less year, massive front loaded contracts? Not one owner can outbid you....
If NE can run with two receiving TEs, then Bates will hopefully be able to figure it into
later gameplans.
Heck, they have three...
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 19, 2010 9:11 PM PST up reply actions
I hope so
If Carlson doesn’t feel wanted he can always go back to Indiana and play for the Colts, where he’ll immediately have a 125 catch season.
Accustomed to mediocrity.
If he develops, he develops.
If Morrah is better receiver and McCoy is in to block, then trade Carlson.
Llama's cut/release list:
Terrill, Trufant, Jennings, Locklear, Hasselbeck, Andrews, and so many more
by Wayward Llama on Dec 20, 2010 4:55 AM PST up reply actions
Carlson still has it.
Charlie and Carlson’s pass and catch was great. It shows that if he’s actually thrown to with a decent pass he will catch it, which is what we’ve always known. Matt hasn’t been targetting him and web he does it’s a desperate throw.
by PhoneHomeET29 on Dec 20, 2010 3:00 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
To be fair, though, some of it has been on John as well
I have seen Carlson drop some catchable balls (e.g. in the back of the endzone in previous games this season). However, he is getting so few looks, it is a bit natural to press. The combination of his few targets and occasional drops has not been positive.
I think if Carlson was on a team with a good QB, he would be quite good, but he may be the type of guy that needs some reps to reach his stride.
Yeah. Carlson was much more open and a completion to him would have netted a 1st
compared to that instant check down to Stokley 3 yards before the marker. Matt goes to his guys first, more than many QBs.
by jacobstevens on Dec 20, 2010 10:21 AM PST up reply actions
I saw no evidence that Atlanta was "not as agressive".
Their CB’s were still on our WR’s tight.
If anything
They were blanketing them even tighter after the Hasselflop. I saw what looked like fairly blatant DPI’s on Whitehurst’s first three passing plays. The Seattle WRs were wearing extra jerseys.
"Retarded isn't a race." -Thingray
by Matt Erickson on Dec 20, 2010 12:25 AM PST up reply actions
I did notice that.
It was pretty obvious. Of course, the refs weren’t noticing much at all.
....I think he played instead of Hasselbeck in the 4th against Atlanta.
What about him?
Accustomed to mediocrity.
by SSreporters on Dec 19, 2010 8:52 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
FWIW, this is the happiest I've been all season after a loss.
For a couple of reasons.
1) We were in the game right up to the point where Hasselbeck gakked it away. Aside from the Panthers game, that was the latest into a contest this year where we were behind but I still felt we had a chance.
2) Whitehurst may not be a significant improvement over Hasselbeck in terms of talent, but judging by the reactions of everyone in the game thread – to say nothing of the crowd (wouldn’t know firsthand, didn’t get the game in my area) – having Whitehurst on the field is energizing the fans. He may not be the ultimate solution at QB, but novelty alone may help us get into the playoffs if it keeps the team fired up (and indeed, playoffs this year in lieu of draft picks is still what we’re shooting for).
3) At this point last year, the ‘Hawks were so demoralized by Li’l Mora that they were spotting opponents two first quarter TDs every week. They may indeed be less talented than they were the last two years, but at least this team plays like it gives a damn, and that’s probably why this year’s record is better than last year’s.
FG's second favorite football-illiterate semi-troll.
Signing Cole felt like something from playing Madden's Franchise Mode
You think you can generate pass rush by playing the DE/scheming correctly, you just need a big dude to hold ground in the middle. You say, “Colin Cole gives me a 93 in rush defense. Even though he only gives me a 78 in pass defense I can make it up by playing as the DE.” I think the coaching staff has a similar mindset (“Cole gives us a solid run-stopping ability but not much pass rush. We can compensate by starting a situational pass rusher as an every-down pass rusher.”).
trick in madden.
i sort of use pete’s “bandit” package. in dollar defense i put clemons at LE, curry at RE (he’s a beast 85 finesse move, 85 block shedd, 75 power move), put babineaux at SS, and Milloy as the other LB paired with tatupu (gives you the awareness). works well when you know the opponent is throwing.
I don't know what I was hoping for as far as Matt's exit was concerned....
But this wasn’t it. I have too much love for him to be excited that he is done, even if I think it is the right move.
The quote:
“Charlie did an OK job. He went in there and he handled himself all right, made a couple of mistakes with cadence and things, got some penalties for us that look like an O-lineman, but was the quarterback. So we didn’t function as sharp as we would like. But he did move the club a little bit, and he made a couple plays with his legs and made a couple really nice throws. Enough to do a good job.”
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Dec 19, 2010 8:31 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
This coach, I like him.
Charlie also must have the highest career bobbled snap percentage in history. A game and a half, and what, 8 bobbled snaps?
by jacobstevens on Dec 20, 2010 8:23 AM PST up reply actions
Two were right to the hands.
I didn’t even notice the bobble until the replay, and that’s what stood out. How subtly he doesn’t have instant control of the ball like every other QB in the world. Problem showed against New York, too.
by jacobstevens on Dec 20, 2010 10:22 AM PST up reply actions
Rookie vs. one of the best pass rushers in the game
Those things will happen. I just hope the experience helps him.
It will
what does it say they we’re disappointed that a rookie was beat by one of the best pass rushers in the league?
Love this kid.
Haha, totally.
I was at the point where I was like “WTF OKIE” then realized that he was a rookie and chided myself a little.
He’s gold.
And Abraham is really a beast, truly one of the best in the game.
Tied for 22nd all time (granted sacks weren’t tracked until 1982).
One more very good year next year and he could probably get as high as 15th.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 19, 2010 8:48 PM PST up reply actions
Lucky Falcons
They get Kerney then Abraham.
This wooden soul of mine, it cannot ever climb from places it has fallen: In between where light can shine. It never falls in line, it barely has a spine, like branches severed from the vine. Like it was faulty by design.
Hell, we probably will too.
Sigh.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 20, 2010 3:17 PM PST up reply actions
Actually, great point.
But I was thinking more about Major League.
“Hell of a player, wish we had him two years ago.”
-We did.
“Four years ago, then.”
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 21, 2010 8:34 AM PST up reply actions
Which means Tampa Bay's DE will get murdered or won't be heard from again.
Accustomed to mediocrity.
by SSreporters on Dec 19, 2010 8:31 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
We knew this in the preseason:
Today, Whitehurst looked better than Hasselbeck. I can’t quantify it. I will attempt to qualify it in the coming week, but it’s not elusive. Whitehurst moves better than Hasselbeck. He has much more life in his throws and can fit passes into tighter windows
The ‘shame’ is why it’s taken so long to move to potentially better from …from….declined beyond reclamation.
...
Michael Robinson has a 100% completion rate as a Seahawk
Accustomed to mediocrity.
by SSreporters on Dec 19, 2010 8:34 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Dion Branch
He stole Matts Mojo on the way outta town!.
My week is ruined...
unless I hear Charlie gets to practice with the 1st team.
This team is maddening.
A cool thing was that Charlie got his first TD
Not to enter the QB debate, but that was pretty cool, to see a guy as a backup for so long get a TD. You just feel happy for a guy who finally gets to come off the bench and show what he’s got. And to enter the QB debate, I hope he can show more in Tampa.
I was happy for Charlie
To see him smile and possibly gain SOME confidence for once, is nice, and I felt happy for him.
by Pessimistic Optimist on Dec 19, 2010 11:59 PM PST up reply actions
He rushed for a TD in '06 with the Chargers as well
But I see your point. I hope he will play in Tampa also.
by SeparationSunday on Dec 20, 2010 8:16 AM PST up reply actions
I'm hoping he get's some more first career TDs next suday too.
He needs to start racking them up faster so people don’t forget he’s not a virgin.
Starting QB
Strangely, I feel that the solution is simple. Starting Whitehurst is win-win; starting Hasselbeck only serves the past, much like many greats stay too long.
I don’t know that I can envision a future with Hasselbeck a Seahawk next year. Perhaps backup/mentor to a rookie QB while he gets OJT, but I think a more likely/attractive scenario is Whitehurst as the backup to whoever the Hawks acquire as the ‘answer’, unless Charlie does something to show that he is that answer. The only fear I had was that ‘hurst was going to embarrass himself (to the tune of Ryan Leaf rookie season 2-15-25-0-4) but I think it’s clear now that Charlie’s not appreciably worse (or better, so far) than Hasselbeck. Let’s see what happens when he gets all the snaps with the first team.
What is the worst that could happen at this point? Finish 7-9, win the West, and get humiliated on national TV. If Whitehurst stinks we most likely lose out. So? Maybe he helps the Hawks win out and play a respectable playoff game and it’s the start of something (at least rasies his value). Even if Hasselbeck helped Seattle do these same things it serves no purpose; he has no value going forward, only in the past, in the hearts in minds of Seahawks fans.
Most of my cliches aren't original.
- Chuck Knox
I didn't want it to come to this.
The “Charlie” chants broke my heart. I’ve been ready for the switch since September. Was hoping it would have come with more graciousness than that. Not faulting anyone, just how it came to be, and it was a pretty emotional thing for me to witness.
by jacobstevens on Dec 20, 2010 8:26 AM PST reply actions 3 recs
I was thinking the same thing.
When the Charlie chants kept recurring after the benching I had to leave. It’s not that I thought it was uncalled for or unfitting given just how poorly Matt has played but I didn’t want it to come to that. It reminded me of when the fans turned on SA. In a way it’s classless, but I can’t really think of another way that a group with so much invested and absolutely no control can get a message across that change is mandatory.
I actually think Matt earned his boo’s where SA became a victim of circumstance (age, stubborn coach, poor O-line, injury, etc). When SA got boo’d we had a clearly better option outperforming him and it wasn’t his fault that his number kept being called. Matt has essentially lost a fan base that by and large wants change only for the sake of change and not because they feel CW is the answer.
If I'm going to root for an all-tools QB starting for my Seahawks it better be Jake Locker.
by The Manchild on Dec 20, 2010 10:08 AM PST up reply actions
I agree that I didn't want it to come to that...
However, we only have Hass and Carroll to blame for it. Matt for continuing to decline and then trying to be a playmaker when he gets frustrated…and Carroll for sticking with a crap QB. I did boo and chant for Charlie, because I feel as fans, as much as it’s a bit toxic, it is our job as fans to let the front office and coaching staff know that we won’t settle for the status quo and mediocrity when we have been watching little to no progress for three years straight now.
by BrettJMiller on Dec 20, 2010 11:24 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
They'll watch the film, and they should name Charlie the starter.
One pass play—the touch fade route on the 2 pt. conversion should get him the job. Matt hasn’t been able to make that throw for two seasons, and is a big reason our red zone offense has been terra-bad.
And it wasn’t garbage time, that’s just another excuse for Matt. Charlie got the game back to within two scores, the falcons were bringing pressure, blanketing the receivers, and left all their starters in.
What we saw from Matt was a QB who can’t escape pressure and will fumble or self sack instead of throwing it away , will force balls and throw picks instead of throwing it away, and is capable of complete meltdown at any given moment. For QB’s to be good in late stages in their careers they need to manage games and not force things. Matt hasn’t shown that ability.
Charlie has shown the ability to make the throws, and has shown mobility. He has the physical tools that Matt no longer has. Where Matt was supposed to be better was in the decision making and experience, but what Matt has shown is that he’s lost that too. The only logical decision now is to play the QB with the physical ability to get away with making bad decisions, because the veteran “best chance to win” QB is making horrible decisions and can no longer out run 350 pound linemen when he does something stupid.
On throwing it away, I noticed Charlie was able to throw it away instead of taking the sack on one play.
It was a small difference, but it seemed significant, even to the point of someone behind me yelling “TAKE NOTES, HASSELBECK!”
by BrettJMiller on Dec 20, 2010 11:27 AM PST up reply actions
Steve Kelley says the Seahawks should make a change at QB
That’s when you know the call is Universal when you can get that douche to go against his Holmgren/Hass agenda.
Accustomed to mediocrity.
He's just setting the foundation for his new Locker agenda
Expect once this season is over about 2-3 articles from him a week calling Locker the “only” choice for the Hawks.
by SmartAssCoug on Dec 20, 2010 10:31 AM PST up reply actions
The article will also be seventeen paragraphs, with eight total complete sentences.
by BrettJMiller on Dec 20, 2010 11:28 AM PST up reply actions
Do you think he listens to William Shatner's "Rocket Man" on repeat when he writes?
If you were to listen to that while reading Steve Kelley, would it be the same as watching the Wizard of Oz and listening to Dark Side of the Moon?
by SmartAssCoug on Dec 20, 2010 11:36 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Amazing.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 20, 2010 12:34 PM PST up reply actions
Its not so much starting one bad QB over another bad QB for me, so much as if I'm going to watch crappy QB play, I'd rather it be Whitehurst than one of my heroes.
It’s hard to watch Matt out there.
by Kenneth Arthur on Dec 20, 2010 10:54 AM PST reply actions
Well put.
If Hass is old and washed-up what am I? Sob….
If I'm going to root for an all-tools QB starting for my Seahawks it better be Jake Locker.
by The Manchild on Dec 20, 2010 11:56 AM PST up reply actions
At what point do our WR's
get criticized? I don’t see another group of starting (or entire group) of receivers in the NFL. Mike WIliams has the chance to be one of the top 20 WRs in the league, but the rest is simply garbage.
Do you think
Ben Obomanu is garbage? Do you think Brandon Stokely is garbage?
by jubelthebear on Dec 20, 2010 1:18 PM PST up reply actions
I like Obo
but I highly doubt he is more than a special teams player on the majority of teams (and frankly, that is what he was with us until we traded Housh and Branch).
Stokely – dime a dozen, that if we dropped zero teams would pick up. He had a great career at Denver and is servicable now.
Stokely is able to run routes and get separation
Apparently some of the other guys are having trouble in those areas.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Dec 20, 2010 1:36 PM PST up reply actions
I wouldn't say Stokely is garbage
He has a limited role which he fills very well. He’s a slot receiver. As long as all that’s being asked of him is that he be able to get open on short to medium ins and outs, he can be productive. And really, he has been while he’s been here.
Ok garbage is a little too critical
my assessment is that, as a whole, our WR are one of the worst in the NFL. Probably the worst. I’m not a football stats type of guy, so I’d be interested if there is something that supports this assumption. When Stockely leads the team in receptions 3 days after being pulled off his couch, that has to say something about the quality of the group.
I don't think our WR corps is that bad.
I think the people throwing to them are bad. A wide receivers success is based firstly on: who’s throwing to him, then how good he is, then the scheme he plays in.
by jubelthebear on Dec 20, 2010 2:27 PM PST up reply actions
Well that's weird because Matt Hasselbeck can't throw the ball with zip or accuracy forwards down the field and Ken Whisenhunt's offense likes the vertical passing game.
Seems like the exact opposite of a good fit and it would be hilarious and sad simultaneously to watch.
by BrettJMiller on Dec 20, 2010 3:31 PM PST up reply actions
Also Minnesota is designed for a deep passing attack with Harvin, Rice, Berrian, Shiancoe, and Peterson to dump off to.
So yeah, swing and a miss on both. Both teams are geared for strong-armed QBs which Hasselbeck is not.
by BrettJMiller on Dec 20, 2010 3:32 PM PST up reply actions
Reportedly, Minnesota looked into trading for Beck in recent years
http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/176210-possible-replacement-if-favre-leaves
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/morning-jolt/04/07/wednesday-jolt/index.html
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Dec 20, 2010 3:38 PM PST up reply actions
That looks like speculation to me, and that's before he's played so terribly this year.
Also, just because a team wants him doesn’t mean he’ll be good there.
by BrettJMiller on Dec 20, 2010 3:42 PM PST up reply actions
True
but the fact that they were interested in him means that they probably didn’t think he’d be a bad fit.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Dec 20, 2010 3:50 PM PST up reply actions
Pete Carroll doesn't think Matt is a bad fit and I think Carroll's a good coach.
Coaches and players always seem to believe a player can be the player they were 5 years ago just based on their name and reputation. They’re the last to realize old names are bad now.
by BrettJMiller on Dec 20, 2010 3:56 PM PST up reply actions
Or Pete has limited resources
and is trying to right the ship starting with the parts that looked the most broken at the start of the season.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Dec 20, 2010 4:56 PM PST up reply actions
I don't think so
Hass would be in worse shape in both AZ and Minn. Both of those teams are fairly crap at protecting the QB. You think the Seahawks have trouble with QB pressure? Look at how many QB’s those teams have gone through.
by jubelthebear on Dec 20, 2010 3:49 PM PST up reply actions
Once again.
Do you really think Williams-Tate-Butler-Stokley-Carlson-Morrah-Lynch-Forsett-Obomanu is any worse than Wayne-Garcon-Collie-Clark-Tamme-Addai-Simpson-White? I really don’t. While Wayne and Clark are elite, I’d say overall the Seahawks group is better. And yet, the Colts passing game keeps working, and it’s running game is still respectable. Weird.
by BrettJMiller on Dec 20, 2010 3:30 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, it's kinda weird
how the catalyst for the offense that is working is quite possibly one of the greatest QB’s of all time and the catalyst for the offense that isn’t working is… Matt Hasselbeck.
Way to miss the point.
The point is, a good or great quarterback can take a shitty surrounding cast and make them look awesome. Matt has better surrounding talent, and they look awful. Matt is making his supporting cast worse, Peyton is making his better. If you get a QB that’s better than Matt (even though you won’t get one as good as Peyton), I guarantee you the supporting cast looks better.
Give Peyton this supporting cast and with the speed of Butler and Tate, and size of Williams, they’d become stars. Give David Garrard those guys and they’d at least look above average.
by BrettJMiller on Dec 20, 2010 3:46 PM PST up reply actions
Exactly
A franchise QB elevates the play of his surrounding cast. The 2007 Hasselbeck was such a creature. The 2010 clearly isn’t.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Dec 20, 2010 3:52 PM PST up reply actions
The point I'm making is
That Peyton Manning is neither good, nor great – He’s going to go down as one of THE GREATEST of all time, if not THE GREATEST. You can’t make a barometer of that.
It’s like saying that Jordan was able to win the title without a dominant big man – why can’t anyone else seem to? Because it’s not a fair comparison – Jordan is the greatest of all time.
Really?
I love the guy and excited to see him produce, but he has only started 2 games for us. Where would he be a starter?
Rams, Niners, Chiefs, Bucs, Phins
He’d have a fighting chance with all of them.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Dec 20, 2010 3:25 PM PST up reply actions
he makes deep plays with
Hasselbeck throwing to him. He’s gets good separation and makes great catches. I think we should call the catch against the Panthers the “laceration lasso”
by jubelthebear on Dec 20, 2010 3:36 PM PST up reply actions
I argue
he could be a #1 on those teams… well maybe not the Chiefs…
by jubelthebear on Dec 20, 2010 3:51 PM PST up reply actions
Michael Crabtree
Dwayne Bowe – Chiefs, Michael Williams – Bucs, Brandon Marshall – Dolphins, Amendola – Rams
Are you kidding? What in the world are you thinking.
So let’s hear the argument.
Bowe and Williams may go to the probowl
so you are calling Obomanu a pro-bowl caliber WR? Come on, this board is turning into some serious homerism crap.
Serious homerism?
Coming from the person who still defends Matt after so many shitty performances? He said Obomanu could be a # 2 on a lot of teams, and then you listed # 1’s? The line has changed the last couple of years, the receivers have changed, the coaches have changed, and our passing offense still sucks dick. What is the constant here? Matt Hasselbeck. Receivers? Please..Is that you Millen?
by Pessimistic Optimist on Dec 20, 2010 4:13 PM PST up reply actions
No, I was talking about #2s
and there’s no way in hell that Danny Amendola is a #1 WR.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Dec 20, 2010 4:57 PM PST up reply actions
Hasselbeck
Has looked like absolute crap lately. Have you seen me sticking up for him lately? I’m a little disgusted at the booing and general hatred towards him, but yes…his time has passed.
Let’s put Whitehurst in and let I’ll let everyone mock me when he leads us to the playoffs and the eventual NFC Championship.
No need to create straw man
No one is saying Charlie is the guy who can take us to the Super Bowl. But what we can say, is that we don’t know if he can or not, and that is what we want to find out. In regards to Hasselbeck, enough is enough. Hasselbeck played absolutely horrible in his first three games going 43/86, 402 yards, 0 TD and 3 INT, yet Whitehurst can’t get any slack starting two games against the Falcons and Giants? Doesn’t seem right. Everybody deserves a chance. Matt got his chance, it’s time for Charlie to get his.
by Pessimistic Optimist on Dec 20, 2010 8:42 PM PST up reply actions
Charlie didn't get to start against the Falcons either...
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 20, 2010 10:01 PM PST up reply actions
If that's what Mike Williams has already, then two 100 yard games and two TD's and Mike Williams is probably in, at least on the bench.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 21, 2010 8:36 AM PST up reply actions
BMW has 60/720/1 right now
There’s no way he’s going to get get to 8 TDs but he might be able to reach 70/900 if we play well.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Dec 21, 2010 9:31 AM PST up reply actions
I thought we were talking Mike Williams TB, and that he alreqady has better numbers.
"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 21, 2010 10:09 AM PST up reply actions
Actually I did say maybe not the Chiefs,
but Crabtree isn’t nearly as clean as Obo. He’s better in space, but Obo has such great big play capability (and he wins his 1 on 1 matchups and ain’t afraid to take a hit). As for Williams and Marshall; those guys can be bums sometimes.
Obo’s a bit of an unproven product. But I think there’s a lot of potential there. I’m actually more confounded by your lack of faith in Stokely. Did you never watch Denver
by jubelthebear on Dec 20, 2010 4:14 PM PST up reply actions
B-Marsh has three 100+ yard games this season.
I’ll take that kind of bum. Yeah, Obo’s got a lot of potential, but I’m not sure he’s even a clear-cut #2 in Miami (Davone Bess). He’s probably a #1 on the Rams, though, and a legit #2 in Tampa.
I hear ya.
I was making a huge stretch. Although it’s not improbable to see Marshall & William’s potential attitude problems getting them benched for a less talented wideout.
Glad you brought up Bess. I think he deserves better than what he gets on that team.
by jubelthebear on Dec 22, 2010 10:03 AM PST up reply actions
I'm pretty sure Whitehurst went in after Tampa Bay tied the game at 7-7
not when the Hawks were well out of it…
What goes up must come down.
Sorry Duck fans
by Neil Vincent Roberts on Jan 1, 2011 5:29 PM PST reply actions

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