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FAQs: Quarterback

That was fun. Here's another conversation with myself.

Why do you hate Matt Hasselbeck?

I don't hate Matt Hasselbeck.

Come on.

Okay, maybe I kind of hate Matt Hasselbeck, but not the person or even the player. I hate the quagmire.

Look at it like this: You're managing a team of workers and they're loading a truck full of freight. The team is broken into three groups: One that moves it towards the truck, one that moves it into the truck and one that actually loads it. We will call these three groups: feeders, loaders and the middleman.

Because of the setup, there is a bottle neck at the point where the freight actually moves into the truck and so only one person comprises the "middleman" team. The team moving it to him, the feeders, work collaboratively and so does the team receiving the freight from him, the loaders, but all freight must at some point move through this one employee, the middleman.

Now if the people feeding him are too slow, it's inefficient. And if the people receiving from him are too slow, it's inefficient. If the people feeding him are fast but the people receiving are slow, it's also inefficient and visa versa.

You have managed this same line for years and years, and once upon a time it was one of the best lines in the factory. It just zipped by. Five years back it started to slow. There were wholesale changes to the people feeding the middleman and wholesale changes to the people receiving from the middleman, but the middleman stayed the same.

Over the last three years it's been a goddamn mess. Bosses were fired. Feeders and loaders were swapped out left and right. Some have moved on to success on other lines and some haven't. Some succeeded before joining this line and some were total new hires. All of them are difficult to evaluate because their performance relies on the middleman. If the feeders are fast but the middleman is slow, the feeders must slow or have work build up. If the feeders are slow, we can't know how fast the middleman is. If the loaders are fast but the middleman is slow, they are stuck standing and waiting. If the loaders are slow but the middleman is fast, the middleman has to slow down and so appears slow.

And though that middleman was once the very best middleman you ever saw, he sure looks slow as molasses now. Is it possible the feeders or loaders are to blame? Yes and yes At the same time, there's a history of middlemen like your middleman, and most of them have really, really declined right around his age. Not everyone though, and you would hate to make a hasty generalization, but he fits the profile and certainly looks the part, so it's hard to ignore.

The frustrating part is that the middleman is revered throughout the factory and even up in corporate. He is highly paid and secure. Short of a sick day, there is almost no chance to compare him to anyone else. But when he's been sick, well, it hasn't been that bad. And your replacement middleman is Seneca Wallace.

How do you evaluate the feeders and loaders when their performance depends on the middleman? How do you evaluate the middleman when his performance is dependent on the feeders and loaders? And at what point, even if you're not 100% certain it's the middleman's fault, is it necessary to change the middleman if only to know for sure who is really at fault?

The line you manage suffers year after year, and the work becomes a chore, and nothing really seems to fix anything. New feeders don't help. New loaders don't help. New plans to streamline the process don't help. New motivational tactics don't help. Threats don't help. Nothing works, and though that doesn't confirm who is at fault, it makes the process insufferable, especially because the most basic fix possible, replacing the under-performing employee that all other employees are dependent on, is not allowed.

Wow, that was long.

I get paid by the character and my pay is low and my greed great.

Really?

No.

Anyway . . .

So I have begun to hate the Hasselbeck dilemma.

But isn't it scary moving on from success towards the unknown?

It is, and it wouldn't be unprecedented for Hasselbeck to move on to another team and have success. The chance that Hasselbeck can succeed in Seattle is very remote. Even if we assume Hasselbeck is capable of success with another team, there are tangible barriers to him succeeding in Seattle.

The first is, if Hasselbeck isn't succeeding with the team as constructed, and he isn't, then we assume an overall investment must be made that is commensurate with how much he's struggling. For instance, if Hasselbeck was performing a little below average, a slight overhaul might push him towards average, a modest overhaul might push him towards good and a complete overhaul might push him towards great. But Hasselbeck is playing like one of the worst quarterbacks in football, and so a complete overhaul is probably necessary to achieve above average, and that requires a large investment of resources. Investing major resources into fixing the offense means in the short term the defense is neglected, and all the while Hasselbeck is nearing 40. So, best case scenario, Seattle makes huge strides improving the talent around Hasselbeck, and it's a bit better in 2011 and a lot better in 2012. But even if we assume Hasselbeck is able to defy aging, the Seahawks are still only sporting an above average offense in his age 37 season, and the defense hasn't progressed much if at all.

So Seattle is working against the clock, and while they're working against the clock one simple fact might be undermining the whole process: Hasselbeck could be bad. That's the next big barrier. How can a team build around an already 35-year old player completing a stretch of three straight bad seasons? As much as I like commitment to method even in the face of initial failure, there is stubbornness and perseverance and then there is throwing good money after bad. The Hasselbeck experiment has lasted a long, long time and all evidence indicates it's a failure.

The final hurdle is that Hasselbeck is a free agent in 2011. Quarterbacks are expensive, pretty much without variance. Seattle can't pull a Ruskell and tell him to test the market and come back to us, at least not if they're interested in re-signing him. So they would probably have to extend an offer and they probably couldn't ask Hasselbeck to take a pay cut. And so to even start this seemingly doomed process, Seattle would have to dish out $6 million a season with something like $20 million guaranteed.

That's a turd of a contract.

So how about Charlie Whitehurst? What's his story?

More than anything, Whitehurst is a kind of sloppy control group. Maybe he's good, probably not, but the Seahawks should find out. Of equal importance, the Seahawks should see how their offense performs with a different middleman taking the freight and feeding the loaders.

A year ago, most Seahawks fans thought Deion Branch was washed up. Well he's clearly not. Rob Sims is earning respect in Detroit blocking for Maurice Morris. Even someone as reviled and unestablished as Julius Jones has found success outside of Seattle. None of these players went the way of Shaun Alexander. Talent that has failed in Seattle has found success elsewhere.

For the last three years, the assumption that Hasselbeck has battled on despite overwhelmingly bad surrounding talent has dictated the Seahawks offense. How it is constructed and how it is run. Each season new players were shuffled in and each off-season failed players were shuffled out. And nothing improved. Three coordinators in three seasons, and not one seemingly called for what Hasselbeck was capable of. Even when Holmgren was calling the shots and Gil Haskell was the offensive coordinator, people said the Seahawks should run more shotgun and three receivers sets and that what Matt really needed was a talented tight end.

Allowing Whitehurst to start could actually boost fan perception of Hasselbeck. It would certainly help clarify how good the rest of the Seahawks offensive personnel is.

Yeah, but what about Whitehurst himself?

Whitey was a third string backup with good tools that sat behind an All-Pro starter that never gets hurt. His time in San Diego is a blank slate.

When I watched Whitehurst and evaluated his ability, I was pretty discouraged. That's an understatement.

He flashed in his first preseason game. I still wonder if maybe Whitehurst was just running the plays he proved in practice that he could, and once he emptied that bag of tricks, things sort of fell apart. Because things did fall apart for Whitehurst. Over the next three preseason games, he only reached a 50% completion percentage once, and that was against the Oakland Raiders' third string. Third string overstates it. Whiterhurst struggled against the players the Oakland Raiders didn't want.

He played poorly in his lone  regular season start, if against stacked odds, and poorly as a substitute. His eight for 16 performance against the Falcons felt exciting, but sort of like how a can of spam sounds delicious to a starving man. He still looked pretty clueless, and throw in the interception Brent Grimes was just short of making and taking to the house, and Whitehurst's thrilling performance in relief looked almost exactly like all his other performances.

Whitey didn't look that good on paper, didn't look that good after initial scouting, has not effectively challenged Hasselbeck however low the bar is seemingly placed, and typing this, I think back to reports that Whitehurst was not outplaying J.P. Losman in training camp.

And if that seems to justify Carroll's continued commitment to Hasselbeck, I offer this counter: Ken Whisenhunt has started Derek Anderson, Max Hall and now John Skelton--heretofore referred to as Skeleton. He did this because he knows Anderson is not the answer, an answer must be found, and if testing all options conveniently pushes the Cardinals towards drafting a franchise quarterback, well isn't that a happy coincidence. Mike Shanahan, a probable future Hall of Fame inductee, is doing the exact same in Washington. Successful coaches know you find a franchise quarterback or die trying, and complacency is the only strategy that is sure to fail.

That sort of turned into a speech.

I know, I hate myself.

The Seahawks have a horrible history of drafting quarterbacks in the first round. Wouldn't drafting another be a mistake?

Seattle's success or failure in previous drafts has no impact whatsoever on whether the team will succeed or fail in their next attempt to draft a quarterback. In that sense, a team has no history. They are a loose collection of different talents under a banner, and what might seem impossible during one era can come to define another. Look at the Boston Red Sox. Boston used to be cursed by bad luck, bad management and bad talent. Now they're one of the most successful franchises in Major League Baseball.

Twenty years from now, the Seahawks could be associated with a keen eye for quarterback talent.

But not likely, right? Drafting a quarterback seems like a crapshoot.

It's risky and that risk is compounded by a simple fact too often overlooked. If nothing correlates with winning better than passing offense, than teams in line to draft a quarterback were more than likely bad at passing the football the previous season. So they're in need of talent on their passing offense independent of the quarterback and that quarterback is supposed to succeed despite that, and despite the fact that the team's most precious commodity, its first round pick, was used to draft a quarterback.

But sometimes teams with poorly performing passing offenses are not short of talent on their passing offense. Matt Ryan inherited two number one receivers, Roddy White and Michael Jenkins, an all around weapon, Jerious Norwood, and a top ten running back, Michael Turner . He succeeded right away.

Fans assume Seattle is an offensive sinkhole because the way it has performed, but I think most rookie quarterbacks would thrill to start their career passing to Mike Williams, protected by Russell Okung, handing the ball to Marshawn Lynch and Justin Forsett, and developing chemistry with Golden Tate.

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Would you say our failure to get a QB starts with Ruskell?

I’ve been Pro-Ruskell for a while but seeing this team decay I think a major part of the problem is his moves were for the immediate future and not long-term.

Accustomed to mediocrity.

by SSreporters on Dec 22, 2010 8:45 PM PST reply actions  

Of the one's drafted

I think Ruskell only drafted Teel and Greene

by SeahawkSammy on Dec 22, 2010 9:20 PM PST up reply actions  

For a 6th round draft pick

The Browns saw us coming from a mile away.

by Clendy on Dec 23, 2010 3:16 AM PST up reply actions  

ooh a 6th rounder

Yeah what a fuckup by ruskell giving up a 6th rounder. You would have drafted a hall of famer with that pick.

Shut up.

by dingoeatbaby on Dec 24, 2010 2:07 AM PST up reply actions  

Don't laugh.

It’s a tragedy whenever someone loses a child.

"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw

by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 24, 2010 11:28 AM PST up reply actions  

`
The Seahawks have a horrible history of drafting quarterbacks in the first round. Wouldn’t drafting another be a mistake?

I jokingly refer to this as Mirer’s Law.

“Whenever a discussion takes place asking whether or not the Seahawks should draft a quarterback early, someone will inevitably invoke the name of Rick Mirer as evidence that the Seahawks shouldn’t draft a quarterback.”

It’s absolutely worth remembering that the front offices and scouts that pushed to draft guys like Mirer and McGuire are gone. What they did has no bearing on what the current Seahawks do.

And on a slightly related note, I’m really digging this FAQ series.

by BrianL on Dec 22, 2010 8:56 PM PST reply actions   2 recs

not drafting a QB in the 1st round because of bad draft history is poor man's logic

that I would only consider if Ken Behring was suddenly taken aboard as a draft consultant.

by farmer cam on Dec 22, 2010 9:07 PM PST up reply actions  

Under similar logic...

Detroit shouldn’t have drafted Calvin Johnson due to their lack of success with first round WR. That worked out okay and it even was the same people. You can’t let irrational fear guide your draft practices. If the Seahawks don’t get a franchise QB in here at some point, Carroll and company won’t be here that long anyway.

Most of my cliches aren't original.

- Chuck Knox

by Azimeir on Dec 23, 2010 10:38 AM PST up reply actions  

We should have an advantage over other teams for the next couple of years.....

Carrol should have a pretty good knowledge of the blue chip prospects coming out the next few years because he would have scouted them since high school.

With Carrol and Schneider having a pretty good working relationship, I’m pretty sure we will avoid another situation where the Owner/FO wants one guy (Dan McGwire) while the coach wants another (Favre).

If the QB they want is available in the first round, I’m sure they’ll take him, otherwise look for a lot of trading down and collecting some more picks.

by SeahawkSammy on Dec 22, 2010 9:16 PM PST reply actions  

If their first draft was any indication than I tend to agree with you

the question we don’t know the answer to is does the FO share our sense of urgency in finding a future franchise quarterback.

by farmer cam on Dec 22, 2010 9:21 PM PST up reply actions  

I think they do

but I hope they don’t draft a QB for the sake of drafting a QB, if the guy they want isn’t available. In other words I would rather they trade up to get the guy they want, or trade down to avoid reaching too far (Denver – though it is too soon to evaluate) to pick up a QB prospect.

I can’t think of any playoff team right now that would be looking for a QB, so a move to the latter part of the first round would be a possibility.

by SeahawkSammy on Dec 22, 2010 9:31 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't think Pete Carroll is stupid.

He knows QB is probably our most pressing issue. You can see the frustration on his face on the sidelines.

by DetectiveM on Dec 22, 2010 10:25 PM PST up reply actions  

How can they not?

They don’t have a quarterback that’s started more than 1 regular season game under contract after this year and no quarterbacks under contract for the year after that.

Frankly, I’d be surprised if they didn’t acquire 2-3 quarterbacks in the off season.

I just really, really, hope they don’t overextend themselves to get another bust.

by lackskill on Dec 22, 2010 11:18 PM PST up reply actions  

Not to split hairs

but I don’t really buy into Carroll providing any special advantage when it comes to scouting college players for the draft. Every team in the league has a staff dedicated to college scouting. And the success of USC meant that PC was recruiting from the 4 and 5 star cream of the crop players. He didn’t really have to look for diamonds in the rough.

This isn’t to say that he doesn’t have a great eye for talent and a willingness to take risks on players (WT3 for example). I just don’t see his time at USC providing some major built in bonus that teams like the Pats or Giants or Falcons don’t have as well.

by SmartAssCoug on Dec 23, 2010 9:44 AM PST up reply actions   3 recs

The advantage is that Pete coached in college and faced most of the players in game

We know that he has the whole USC organization covered, but Pete has faced many other players on the field rather than in workouts. He also understands what they are like in the locker room, something that scouts has trouble addressing.

I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul - Invictus

by EequalsMc2 on Dec 23, 2010 10:10 AM PST up reply actions  

Scouts generally don't have trouble addressing what they are like in the locker room.

They do pretty extensive background research, talk to player’s coach and sometimes their teammates.

He may have an advantage, but I don’t see him as somehow understanding what they are like in the locker room as if another scout (who, most likely was a player then a coach himself, who moved into the front office) doesn’t have that same experience and understanding.

"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey

by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 23, 2010 10:15 AM PST up reply actions  

He faced the players in the Pac 10, Notre Dame

and 3 other random schools each year. And he didn’t spend any time in those teams locker rooms.

In his years at USC, he never faced Florida, Tennessee, LSU or Alabama. He hasn’t played Oklahoma since the 2005 Orange Bowl or Texas since the 2006 National Championship. Any player in those two games are already in the NFL. He never played Missouri or Oklahoma State or Michigan State or West Virginia, TCU or Boise State.

There are dozens of teams he never faced, especially schools in smaller conferences east of the Rockies.

Finally, other teams also have recent college coaches that can offer as much insight as PC. You don’t think Charlie Weiss as an offensive coordinator for KC as as much knowledge of the next crop of college kids as PC does?

by SmartAssCoug on Dec 23, 2010 10:56 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Nice column. I only beg to differ with regards to Shanahan

1. He was ballin’ with non-franchise QBs like Griese and Plummer for years.
2. He didn’t not start McNabb until the Redskins were all but mathematically eliminated.

by Kevaru on Dec 22, 2010 9:16 PM PST reply actions  

Griese and Plummer

Griese’s issues were rumored to be with his melon – off the field and attitude – but his second full season as starter was good enough to warrant some latitude. After that awesome 2000 season, Griese played out the final two years of his contract – neither in which Greise nor the Broncos were terrible – and Shanahan upgraded to Plummer. (Griese also went on to have another very good year with the Bucs in 2004).

As for Plummer, say what you will about his time in Arizona, Jake’s first three seasons in Denver were solid if not spectacular (posted over a 6.6 any/a every year) and Shanahan still drafted Cutler and replaced Plummer the minute he starting sucking it up. Now, how Shanny handled Denver’s defense in those final years…

Most of my cliches aren't original.

- Chuck Knox

by Azimeir on Dec 23, 2010 11:03 AM PST up reply actions  

Perhaps the F.O. doesn't want or need to know what they have in Whitehurst -

-if that is possible with so little time left in the season. Perhaps they have a plan in place to a degree? Perhaps they know they’ll have a great chance, if not a guarantee to sign or trade for Kolb, Fitzpatrick, McNabb, whoever. Maybe they are using Matt firm in the belief that he (cliche’) ‘gives us the best chance to win’ knowing that their QB after this year is likely an offseason away. Sure, the theory has holes and is founded on information unknown and speculated. But, I can think of no sane way a team – any team – would stay with Hasselbeck the way he has declined and thrown games away over and over again. Are the coaches BLIND? I’d rather throw in Zac Robinson for goodness sakes!

The Arizona point was a good one. What do you have to lose when you decide to roll with DA, Hall, Skelton. Or, Troy Smith in SF? Why did the Bills try Trent Edwards, Brian Brohm, and Ryan Fitzpatrick?

This whole situation pisses me off . What is the over/under on interceptions by Tampa Bay on Sunday? Fumbles? Pick-6’s? Hasselsacks? This is becoming a parody of errors largely at the hands of one Matt ’Don’t Re-sign Me’ Hasselbeck.

...

by Misfit74 on Dec 22, 2010 11:47 PM PST reply actions  

Here's our 3 steps to a franchise QB...

1) Draft whoever is at the top of the QB list in the 7th round of this coming draft.
2) Start Charlie Whitehurst in 2011.
3) Once we know that CW isn’t the answer (pretty easy assumption), then we start that 7th round draft pick which either turns into Tom Brady or “conveniently pushes the Cardinals Seahawks toward drafting a franchise QB.” (hopefully Andrew Luck)

by Hawkhammer19 on Dec 23, 2010 12:07 AM PST reply actions  

Bloody brilliant.

Although I really would like our stretch of bad seasons to end sooner rather than later… As exciting as this one was until about week 8 or 9.

This wooden soul of mine, it cannot ever climb from places it has fallen: In between where light can shine. It never falls in line, it barely has a spine, like branches severed from the vine. Like it was faulty by design.

by Cheddar28 on Dec 23, 2010 1:01 AM PST up reply actions  

Long Snappers are highly sought after with those late round picks as well...

"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw

by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 23, 2010 3:16 PM PST up reply actions  

Great!

ANOTHER season in the dumper. Perfect.

/shoots self

...

by Misfit74 on Dec 23, 2010 5:06 PM PST up reply actions  

What about a trade?

What about Kevin Kolb? I think it’s obvious that the eagles are sticking with Vick. Will they want to unload Kolb with that big contract? Thats a lot of money for a 2nd string player. He’s talented, young, and showed success in his games. I’m curious about what you think John.

by Delasara on Dec 23, 2010 1:38 AM PST reply actions  

Kolb isn't going to cost them that much next year.

They gave him a $10+ million dollar signing bonus when they extended his contract this last offseason, but according to Rotoworld his base salary next year will only be $1.4 million. That’s a heck of a deal for any team trading for him, and not much of a burden for the Eagles. So it’s pretty unlikely that they drop the price from 2 first round picks for Kolb.

by Mind of no mind on Dec 23, 2010 2:46 AM PST up reply actions  

I want to draft a QB.

I want a player who is born and raised a Seahawk.

by DetectiveM on Dec 23, 2010 3:01 AM PST up reply actions  

If a guy was a HoF level player with a contract squabble, say, Phillip Rivers type as an example...

I’d take him no hesitation and not look back. I’ll take born and raised HoF with a Seahawk heavy career any day of the week, especially Sundays.

"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey

by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 23, 2010 8:23 AM PST up reply actions  

I say no

he’s talented, but inconsistent. Not to mention that the Eagles already have him locked in for at least the next season. Both he and Vick have been injured at some point this year, so there’s no reason for them to trade away what is probably the single best backup in the league. Plus, the asking price for him as far as draft picks would be obscene. I wouldn’t make a trade for that much if it gave up the chance to fill other roster slots elsewhere.

by Clendy on Dec 23, 2010 3:13 AM PST up reply actions  

They are asking Jay Cutler prices... but without a proven track record.

"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey

by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 23, 2010 8:20 AM PST up reply actions  

The sample size grows, the excitement withers...

"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey

by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 23, 2010 9:08 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm 35 and forever single.

I enjoy small sample size….

… and to cut this joke off at the knees; no, that’s NOT what she said!

"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey

by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 23, 2010 10:18 AM PST up reply actions  

LOL

35 36 and forever single. Although in my case I think it’s the ladies that enjoy the small sample size.

Most of my cliches aren't original.

- Chuck Knox

by Azimeir on Dec 23, 2010 11:14 AM PST up reply actions  

Kolb Torched the Falcons

Although it’s also pretty clear the Eagles have some amazing offensive talent at this point. Honestly, I higher on Fitzpatrick than Kolb.

Most of my cliches aren't original.

- Chuck Knox

by Azimeir on Dec 23, 2010 11:10 AM PST up reply actions  

*Me Higher

Most of my cliches aren't original.

- Chuck Knox

by Azimeir on Dec 23, 2010 11:15 AM PST up reply actions  

The Falcons have also struggled to defend the pass.

Fitzpatrick seems to be exactly what the Q/PM were hoping Charlie would turn into.

by Nate Dogg on Dec 23, 2010 11:16 AM PST up reply actions  

Falcons Pass Defense

12th in pass defense on FO
20th in yards (not bad considering how often they’ve been ahead)
10th in any/a

Most of my cliches aren't original.

- Chuck Knox

by Azimeir on Dec 24, 2010 3:11 PM PST up reply actions  

20th in defensive pass efficiency.

So all together better than I thought but still only about average.

by Nate Dogg on Dec 26, 2010 9:53 AM PST up reply actions  

Clayton said the other night that the price was two firsts.

Take it for what you will.

"You tell me with confidence that you think Charlie could have done better and I will laugh beer in your face." JohnnyOsprey

by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 23, 2010 10:19 AM PST up reply actions  

Ouch.

Kolb intrigues me but not at that price.

Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?

by Benne on Dec 25, 2010 3:56 PM PST up reply actions  

I think the need is great enough

that we end up drafting two QBs. The best suited quarterback left in the 1st round with whatever draft slot we end up with, along with a 6th or 7th round long shot choice. There are plenty of QBs with good stats and abilities that go without job offers just because they didn’t come from a top tier program. 6th or 7th round choices are almost always throwaway choices anyway, with only a very few exceptions, and the outside chance of landing a future Tom Brady that would otherwise go unnoticed has a much greater upside than the usual fourth position wide receiver or linebacker we’d normally get.

by Clendy on Dec 23, 2010 3:09 AM PST reply actions  

It feels like Pete thinks he has to win now at the expense of next year

Which seems odd to me. He has tremendous power in the organization, it’s his first year on the job, we’re coming off a terrible 2009….the honeymoon still has a little while to go, doesn’t it? He is clearly and deliberately taking us into an offseason where we won’t know, can’t know, what we have in Whitehurst. Unless his one start against the Giants (who only have one of the best pass rushing corps in the league) was enough to convince him that trading for Whitey was a colossal mistake.

by sideshow bob on Dec 23, 2010 6:56 AM PST reply actions  

There are a couple of other possibiblities

A. He is planning on resigning Hass to mentor whoever he drafts.
B. He is perfectly comfortable with CW starting next year with the experience he is at.
C. He is going to draft and sign a veteran and start new next year.

I like B the best. I don’t think we can assume that Pete needs to see more to evaluate CW either way. I would hope he would either give him more of a chance or more experience depending on which direction he is going, but I get the feeling they already know the direction that they are going and the next two games do not effect their QB plans.

by stufr on Dec 23, 2010 8:03 AM PST up reply actions  

Agreed: we need to find out what Whitehurst is about

Obviously he’s mobile. Now, the question becomes: given an entire off-season with him as a designated starter and/or in Matt’s position until next year (he’s gonna start, he’s gonna start, he’s gonna start, he’s gonna start – aw, I’ll pull him, but he’ll still start), how much better will he do? This is, of course, given that the offensive line does not lose one of it’s key starters in the pre-season and that there is some measure of ‘05 consistency in that group. I think Whitehurst has potential, but he’s so raw in the experience department that it might actually be detrimental towards his perceived talen.

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.

by Corax --Nevermore-- on Dec 23, 2010 9:53 AM PST reply actions  

I miss me some Mo-mo
And at what point, even if you’re not 100% certain it’s the middleman’s fault, is it necessary to change the middleman if only to know for sure who is really at fault?

This, I think, is the core of this entire arguement. As someone in tech support, this is exactly how you fix things. You sometimes must change out parts if only to be sure that they’re working.

I think most rookie quarterbacks would thrill to start their career passing to Mike Williams, protected by Russell Okung, handing the ball to Marshawn Lynch and Justin Forsett, and developing chemistry with Golden Tate.

Have some nifty tight ends to throw to as well. Am I the only one who has a cold sweat fear that if Carlson leaves here he becomes Dallas Clark?

Most of my cliches aren't original.

- Chuck Knox

by Azimeir on Dec 23, 2010 11:31 AM PST reply actions  

Dallas Clark?

Only if he has Peyton throwing to him. Besides, Clark is a glorified WR, he really isn’t a great blocker, and is more in the Ed McCafferty/Shannon Sharpe mold of glorified WR in a TE body.

Witten is probably a better example both size-wise, all around skill-wise given the blocking capability, and fact that he simply has an above average QB as opposed to a HoF one.

Witten is listed at 6’6’ 263, Clark a thicker 6’3" 250, and Carlson a rangy 6’5" 250. He’s more likely to put on 10 over the next 3 years or so and be even closer to Witten size-wise.

Personally, I’d love to see him develop into more of an Antonio Gates/Tony Gonzalez type, and here, but that might not be possible as they seem entirely unto their own class as athletes at a position loaded with athletes.

"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw

by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 23, 2010 12:39 PM PST up reply actions  

Someone hit my head with a 'tard bat

I seemed to have (wrongly) rememeber Clark being with someone else before the Colts. Also, I was merely talking about production, but I have no problem with Carlson morphing into Witten -

- so long as it’s here and he keeps his lid on.

Most of my cliches aren't original.

- Chuck Knox

by Azimeir on Dec 26, 2010 9:27 AM PST up reply actions  

Hhahahhaaha!

Nice.

Just took a look— Dallas is a career Colt.

"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw

by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 26, 2010 11:57 AM PST up reply actions  

Pryor accurate?

Did something change this year? I admit I didn’t get to see him this season, but in past seasons I would not have called him accurate.

"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw

by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 23, 2010 12:40 PM PST up reply actions  

Just under 66% this season

Up from 60% and 56% in his first 2 seasons.

by SeahawkSammy on Dec 23, 2010 1:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Just found this, thought it very perfectly connected to the Whitehurst/Hasselbeck "debate."

From an interview with Fran Tarkenton, who does have an agenda of course— hating Brett Favre. But he does have a certain salience.

Who is more responsible for the implosion of this year’s Vikings: Brett Favre or Brad Childress:

“It’s Brett Favre. Brad Childress, how many games did he play? It’s Brett Favre, here is the deal. Every coach is scared to death to coach a young quarterback, they are scared to death… So here is Childress and they won three straight playoff games with Gus Frerotte and Travis, whatever his name is, Tarvaris Jackson playing quarterback, their roster was so good, but he saw the chance, I can get Brett Favre. Now Green Bay gave up on him. Did they not? And the Jets gave up on him.

Now, you have got a player right there in Philly. Does Andy Reid got a brain? I think he does, don’t you? Andy Reid didn’t know that Michael Vick was going to do as good as he did this year he was going to go with the other guy, Michael Vick, but he decided, because he coached there, that Donovan McNabb’s day was gone.

So Shanahan goes in there, he is a good coach, comes to Washington, Oh gosh, I have got to have a veteran quarterback, right? But then he finds out that isn’t the deal.

Let’s go to Cleveland, Cleveland they have got a good football team. Holmgren and Mangini, they are not dumb! They went and got Jake Delhomme! Jake Delhomme from Carolina, who is as bad as it gets because he is a veteran. How has he done?

Now you know who Minnesota will probably get next year? (HOST: Donovan McNabb.) That’s it boys, because there are a lot of dumb people in professional football! That is why when you get a few smart ones like Andy Reid and Belichick they dominate!"

"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw

by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 23, 2010 12:57 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

Hating Brett Favre isn't an agenda, it's a civic duty.

Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?

by Benne on Dec 25, 2010 4:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Just played apples to apples with my family...

The word to pick a card for was “Broken.”

I threw down Brett Favre and won, hahhahahhahahaahha!

"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw

by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 25, 2010 7:11 PM PST up reply actions  

What is this infatuation with Kolb?

Don’t get me wrong, I like him as well, but I like Whitehurst too and believe he should get a shot. I’m wondering what’s the difference between Kolb and Whitehurst?

Whitehurst was drafted in 06, Kolb was drafted in 07. Neither of them has ever been more than a clipboard holder, career backup. If Whitehurst has been a career backup then Kolb has been a career backup, does 1 year make that big of a difference in definition?

The difference is that Kolb has had a couple real live games due to injury while Whitehurst has not. Whitehurst has played in 1 game in a surprise spot start, with half his team missing, against the best defense in the league or NFC at least, at the time. What about practice and preseason you say? They are both garbage arguments. In practice backups rarely if ever get any reps. In preseason, you are playing against third stringers, but you’re also playing WITH thirdstringers. A QB must have time to develop, to understand the system in real live games and more importantly, to build chemistry with NFL quality players. If you throw a bunch of scrubs (3rd stringers, practice squad members) on the field and have them play, the defense will always kill the offense. The offense is predicated on timing, understanding what everyone else is doing, working together, etc. The defense is a lot more lax in that department. Everyone does their job and it works.

The point of this is not to say that kolb is not good, since i like Kolb and believe he will be a quality QB. However, I also believe that Whitehurst has all the tools necessary to be a VERY GOOD NFL QB! And, he hasn’t had the opportunity yet to show if he can or can’t do it. He needs real games, 1st team reps with the same guys on offenes for an extended period of time.

For those who say that coaches can judge players in practice and preseason, let me ask you something: How come Michael Vick last year was 3rd on the depth chart? Michael Vick is not an MVP candidate. One of the best QB coaches of all time, Andy Ried, the walrus, had him sitting for the ENTIRE YEAR as 3rd string QB, IN HIS PRIME! This year, Kolb was the starter and Vick was the backup. Vick got a chance because of injury to Kolb and now he is the best or one of the best QBs in the league. So, why didn’t this coach, a much better QB evaluator than Carroll, see that Vick was really the right choice? Was he just too stupid and Carroll is too smart? What about Arian Foster, currently the best RB in the game! At least statistically. He was an undrafted free agent on a practice squad. The Seahawks could have signed him for free last year. Why didn’t all the coaches see the talent in practice? Peyton Hillis, another one of the best RBs in the game today was traded for peanuts and never given a chance in Denver. Why didn’t the coaches see the talent?

by plyka on Dec 23, 2010 1:31 PM PST reply actions  

Unconditional love is beautiful

As well as Vick is playing now, I think even he might have had some trouble going from prison to starter with only a couple weeks of training camp to get it together.

by BurtonOerney on Dec 23, 2010 3:08 PM PST up reply actions  

What about this year?

At the beginning of the year Vick was behind Kolb on the depth chart. Andy Reid decided to shit him for Kolb at the beginning of this year. Was this due to him only being out of prison for a few weeks as well (despite the fact that Vick has been out of jail for like 3 years now)? What about Tom Brady? The year he led the Patriots to the super bowl he was a bench warmer for most of the year. Only an injury to Bledsoe allowed Brady to get his shot. Without that injury, Bledsoe would have been the starter the entire year. Bellicheck is one of the best coaches of all time, why didn’t he see Brady’s skill in practice and preseason? And you conveniently left out Arian Foster and Peyton Hillis.

Unconditional love is one thing, blindness or an inability to think outside of the box which has been set up for you is another. I’d work on that if i were you.

by plyka on Dec 23, 2010 3:29 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't disagree with your statement about coaches missing ability in players...

However, something else irked me here… Mike Vick got out of jail May 20th, 2009. He then had two months of home confinement time.

May 20th 2009
May 20th, 2010 - 12 months
June 20th
Dec 23rd 2010 — 6 months, 3 days.

Yep. 3 years exactly. Or, if you consider in home confinement “jail time” (and be honest, it is of sorts), then drop that by 2 months, for a nice round 16 months 3 days of “freedom.”

Fact check, please. You are posting on the internet, you’d be amazed how much information is available out there with which to verify your statements.

"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw

by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 23, 2010 6:22 PM PST up reply actions  

corrrection:

Michael Vick is NOW an MVP candidate

not

Michael Vick is NOT an MVP candidate

by plyka on Dec 23, 2010 1:34 PM PST reply actions  

Ok?

What part about my comment about how I feel about Hasselbeck got my comment removed?

Emerald City Funk Machine

by blackvanilla on Dec 23, 2010 1:47 PM PST reply actions  

Glad someone else is feeling the same

You know Hass is a great guy. You know at one time he was a good QB who did more bad than good. But three years of watching Hass play mostly badly when he is in or get injured and miss games is starting to make me feel angry and tired fo him. It’s making me feel angry and tired towards the coaches for not doing what they should do: bench Hasselbeck. If he goes in and screws up badly this Sunday and the coaches leave him in, I’m liable to taste my own bile because of the seething hatred I will feel towards him and PC for not having the guts to go with a different QB as horrible as Matt is playing.

by A. Simmons on Dec 23, 2010 3:27 PM PST reply actions  

100% agree

I put the blame on the coaches and it brings into question whether Carroll is the right guy to lead this team. As a huge USC fan, I’m a huge Carroll fan as well so it pains me to say this. But Carroll is not only making a huge mistake for the team and franchise by continuing to start one of the worst QBs in the league (rated 29th via QB rating for the year), but he is staining Hasselbeck himself. He is making Hasselbeck HATED in the Seahawk community by a large number of people, the people who were chanting “charlie, charlie, charlie” are only the tip of the iceberg.

The worst of it is the radio heads. These guys on 710 bring in Hass’ best friends AND HIS FREAKIN BROTHER!!!!!!! To talk about Hass vs Whitehurst? Trent Dilfer even admitted that he was incredibly good friends with Hass and said that him and Brock Huard, the host of the show by the way, were biased since they were such great pals. Then Tim Hasselbeck comes on the show to talk up his own brother Matt as though he is an analyst. His delusion is so great that he called Hasselbeck the best offensive weapon on the team, lol. Um, what about an elite talent named BMW? What about our star LT in Okung? There is no other team in the league, that if you said you can have any player on the offense, that would take Hass, NONE. No one would even take him for FREE he is that bad.

by plyka on Dec 23, 2010 3:36 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm still of the school of thought

that PC was simply choosing his battles this year. With all the other changes he was planning on making to the roster, with the basically free hand he was given, the one thing he couldn’t change this year was the most popular and successful starting QB in Seahawks history. Maybe the thought was that his new offense wouldn’t have chemistry with all the new pieces AND a new QB. Or that the fans would accept cutting or trading away anybody on the team EXCEPT their conference-winning team leader.

All of this talk about PC ignoring the QB situation and sticking with Hasselbeck to a fault, making a lie of everything he’s said as far as coaching philosophy, he’s a liar, he’s a hack, Hasselbeck has naked pictures of him in a gay brothel somewhere, etc., is all nonsense. If he were unwilling or unaware of any pressing needs behind center, why would he have gone through the trouble of bringing in Whitehurst in the first place?

One doesn’t spend a 3rd round draft choice on a dedicated backup. We still had Seneca for that. My thought is that they brought in Whitehurst under the same formula we had for Hasselbeck: A talented QB languishing on the depth chart behind a perennial starter. My guess is that Whitehurst had every opportunity to win the starting job in the preseason, but there was something there that PC didn’t like. Maybe he’s more able, physically, but maybe there are intangibles or locker room issues that keep him from having the top spot. Immaturity? Work ethic? Insistence on wearing white robes and sandals? Who knows?

So here we are at the end of the season. PC, heading into his second year, now has a mandate to make new changes at QB. His starter is on an almost unrecoverable downhill slump in a contract year. His backup has been unable to win the starting spot from the slumping starter. Both Plan A: See if Hasselbeck still has it, and Plan B: Whitehurst, didn’t work out in his eyes, so I’m betting that now we go to Plan C: The Draft, for our next QB prospect.

by Clendy on Dec 23, 2010 4:01 PM PST reply actions  

quick question

You say Pete saw something in preseason and practice, and that’s why Charlie shouldn’t start. Well, was Andy Reid right in choosing to start kolb over mvp favorite Michael vick, both last year and the start of this year. Remember, vick only got a chance this year because kolb got injured. Without the injury vick sits on the bench this year and last year.

by plyka on Dec 23, 2010 5:28 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Impossible to say

without knowing exactly what went on in the Eagle’s preseason and training camp. It’s possible that Kolb’s performance blew Reid away. It’s also likely that he and Vick performed on a more or less equal level and, as the incumbent starter, Kolb got the nod. With his lingering bad press, it would have taken a stellar and overwhelming performance on Vick’s part to win the starting job after McNabb’s departure.

But everyone likes a winner, and once Kolb got injured and Vick came in like a conquering god, he eventually became the Eagles’ permanent starter. But it did take a while, a few weeks after Kolb’s subpar games and a few weeks into Vick’s awesomeness before Andy Reid finally made the call. That was a controversy in itself. There are any number of reasons why Reid hesitated on making the change: Not wanting to admit a mistake in going with Kolb, thinking that Kolb was able to play at just as high a level as Vick, thinking that Vick was just riding a hot streak, thinking that Vick would become a bad press issue, fear of making such a big chance in dethroning his anointed starter, and so on.

In my eyes, Vick’s performance is the kind of thing that Whitehurst would need to accomplish to win the starting job. Incumbency is a hard thing to argue against; as the starter, the job is Hasselbeck’s to lose. Even at the low level Hasselbeck is playing at, by this wisdom, Whitehurst would have to play at at least an above-average level, for several games in a row, before PC or any coach would be willing to take the step of permanently having him as the starting QB.

So to answer your question, I would say that Reid made the right decision at the time it was made. I’d also say that he made the right decision in holding off in making Vick the starter. A starting QB shouldn’t be dethroned because of one bad game, nor a promoted QB because of one or two good games. It was only after a streak of good games from Vick that he finally made the call.

by Clendy on Dec 23, 2010 6:36 PM PST up reply actions  

QBs:

I’m in: Orton, Kolb, McNabb; Luck, Newton, or other 1st-round QB prospect
I’m out: nearly anyone else.
I’m way, way, waaaaaaaay out: retaining Hasselbeck.

...

by Misfit74 on Dec 23, 2010 5:10 PM PST reply actions  

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