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Nick Andron
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WHY!!!!?
I google this guy and the greatest achievement in his career so far was bodyslamming Tavaris Jackson
From the birds
We are stoked to not only have this guy but to be rid of Chris “Choke Slam” Clemons. It is however a deep draft and that 4th could be used to combine with a 6th or so and nab a 3rd or possibly a 2nd so don’t get too frustrated just yet.
by sowhatifitisasportste on Mar 16, 2010 7:22 PM PDT up reply actions
The problem is that this was an undersell on Tapp, which is the latest in a string of highly questionable personnel moves the new FO has made.
We’re bent about losing Tapp for less than what he was worth, but we’re more bent about the direction this team is headed.
4 what it's worth
Every team in the NFC west seems to be headed down hill except for the lams who can’t get any further down and, the strongest team in the division 49ers have huge questions at QB….. But I’m starting to think the Seahawks may just give up there 2 first rounders for Kevin Klob.
by sowhatifitisasportste on Mar 16, 2010 7:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Two first rounders.
Sleep deprivation does funny things to you.
drafting violation where he can repeat the 1st pick in the 2nd round
I like it’s like a tackling Tom Brady penalty.
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 7:41 PM PDT up reply actions
John and I are apparently having a competition on who can go without sleep the longest.
I’m gonna beat you, Morgan.
ROFL Brian.
That comment was by far the funniest I’ve read on this website in the 2 years I’ve been frequenting it.
6/14/40. Sweet.
All I'm saying
Is the NFC West will be up for grabs this year and all you need to do is make it to the dance to come home with the crown.
by sowhatifitisasportste on Mar 16, 2010 7:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Hah, you wish.
It's Great to be a Florida Gator!
The Arizona Cardinals' plan for success:
-Lose all talent on team to retirement and free agency.
-Call it a day.
by Wayward Llama on Mar 17, 2010 3:29 AM PDT up reply actions
FUUUUUUUUUUUUU ......
"I'm tired of chasing after my dreams. I'll just find out where they're going, and catch up later." - Hedberg
Oh Shit.
Trying not to knee-jerk, but I don’t see how this could ever, possibly work out.
Tapp in Philly. 20 sacks. Fuckers.
hate our people for letting them go
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Mike Holmgren is telling his old assistant Andy Reid who our only quality players are to poach.
by SeaTownBlueDevil on Mar 16, 2010 5:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Better fit maybe.
Browns are a 3-4 team and the Eagles are a 4-3.
by Mind of no mind on Mar 16, 2010 8:23 PM PDT up reply actions
I still think Tapp could be a beast in a 3-4 set.
He shows suprisingly good skills when he’s forced to drop back in intermediate range coverage.
I fear we are run by dummies.
Husky hoops is depressing.
by Woodinville_12thMan on Mar 16, 2010 3:58 PM PDT reply actions
Horrible trade
We get a 4th rounder and a career back-up for our strongest defensive end. I can’t see the logic here
This makes absolutely no sense to me
WHAT THE FUCK!? We’re trading a 25 year old defensive end who hasn’t missed a single game for a 28 year old who has 2.5 more sacks over 3 more years in the league, who also has a torn ACL?
Darryl Tapp was the best DE we had. He played fucking well against Michael Roos, who is one of the best left tackles in the league now. God fucking damn it.
I really don’t see how this is an improvement. If I were sitting at a desk I would headbang the desk _
I'm just going to try and completely ignore this team from now until September.
I’ll go in with a cool head and…WHY THE BLOODY HELL DID WE DUMP TAPP?!!!!!!!
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
Update from the PFT article:
Per a league source, the Eagles sent their fourth-round pick to Seattle with Clemons.
To replace the 4th we could be sending to San Diego for Whitehurst, maybe? Wheels are definitely turning. I’ll wait to see how it all shakes out before busting out my Jump to Conclusions mat.
Trying not to
but this deal heavily favors Philly, without a doubt. Further, it dramatically questions the foundational plans this regime has for this team.
Clemons is a situational rusher, and I know nothing about him beyond that. Conceivably, he could finally put it all together for a Kerney-like year or two, and the move could pay dividends, and Tapp could end up being only as good as he’s been so far, or get injured, or whatever. But that’s results-based analysis. I’m loathe to knee-jerk, but this move is indefensible.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm totally fearing a Berry/Morgan first round draft.
Not that it’s terrible, it’s that I don’t see them as needs….and I want Berry, but that’s the Wants vs. Needs thing.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
What I would fear more than that
is pegging ourselves into that kind of a draft, so, so far ahead of the draft, when neither player is a given to be available, and without addressing QB, tackle, offensive skill position, DT or corner.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions
I count 8
Stevens in 2002, but your point is well served. And only Stevens, Maurice Morris, Chris Spencer and John Carlson in the first two rounds in the past 8 years.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions
So is Nick Reed going to be our premier pass rusher? He replaces Tapp, right?
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
But.....but Nick Reed.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
by SSreporters on Mar 16, 2010 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
No, I'm thinking this predicates a switch for Curry.
which would render a net upgrade at “Elephant,” despite how good Tapp was going to be. But also a larger net downgrade at LB, assuming Clemons — but let’s not forget Hawthorne — goes there. And overall still a dramatic net downgrade to the roster.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions
And it's probably acquiring the collateral for Charlie Whitehurst.
Philly’s 4th plus maybe our 5th.
Losing Tapp to upgrade from Seneca to Aragorn.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions
With all Carroll's talk of needing to improve the offence
I don’t see why he’s backng himself into a situation in which we need defensive starters. Clemons will most likely fit into the elephant rush role as a back-up to Curry, so we’ve traded a starter for a backup. Furthermore, in cutting Grant and trading Tapp, we’re creating more holes on a team that already had so many. It’s just mind-boggling
Reasoning is out of the door. I prefer mindless panicking.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
I'm more worried about what the move foreshadows.
Like some of the Bavasi movies, they weren’t all terrible in a vacuum, but they show a lack of a good organizational philosophy.
The only way this month can get worse is if Sims goes.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
All hail King Carroll, Duke of Low-return Trades and Amasser of Late-round Draft Picks
by Anticitizen_One on Mar 16, 2010 4:18 PM PDT reply actions
This trade will be forgotten about once we draft Decker with the 4th and Nick Reed
has a break out season
I hate coconut M&M's.
So I’m still not happy about the idea of trading Nick Reed. He’s the next coming.
I don't see why they just don't trade Hasselbeck, cut Kerney, trade Trufant and
LeRoy Hill for 2010 picks and see what the fuck happens. Jesus. I won’t be mad at any of this because I haven’t seen the product, or where they really plan on going on how they apply their philosophy though. People need to calm the fuck down.
by twocolorcrayon on Mar 16, 2010 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions
I know we love to Chuck Norrisize Nick Reed
and I used to do the same thing to Pete Hunter and others, but just to make things perfectly clear, Chris Clemons has more potential to contribute meaningfully than Nick Reed does. We can joke without cessation but I hope he doesn’t become a part of serious discussions on integral pieces to the team.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Clemons is awful.
I’d say the Seahawks traded Tapp for a 4 and Clemons, instead of for Clemons and a 4. Deep draft, fellas. As an Eagles fan, I’m not particularly thrilled with this trade either.
by JimmyK on Mar 16, 2010 4:24 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
You just got an up and coming DE.
You should be thrilled.
It's Great to be a Florida Gator!
The Arizona Cardinals' plan for success:
-Lose all talent on team to retirement and free agency.
-Call it a day.
by Wayward Llama on Mar 16, 2010 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions
I'll take your word for it.
I’d be lying if I were to say I’ve seen a lot of him.
by JimmyK on Mar 16, 2010 4:27 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
You guys got a steal.
Tapp has performed very well for a young DE on a team that’s constantly on its heels.
You’ll be laughing at this trade come December.
6/14/40. Sweet.
Fuck.
This makes me incredibly irritated. Who is Chris Clemons? Some random douche who just took one of our best young player’s position, that’s who. Fuck.
It's Great to be a Florida Gator!
The Arizona Cardinals' plan for success:
-Lose all talent on team to retirement and free agency.
-Call it a day.
I'd love to see the justification for this.
Clemens is turning 30 and, even if he had a history of success (he doesn’t really), he’d be near the end of his effectiveness.
Tapp is valuable. He’s cheap, talented, entering his prime, and a starter. 4th round picks aren’t.
What a disaster this offseason has been so far.
Christ. As if we don’t have enough holes on this roster without adding more at random.
It's Great to be a Florida Gator!
The Arizona Cardinals' plan for success:
-Lose all talent on team to retirement and free agency.
-Call it a day.
And
yet we still have Patrick Kerney and Kelly Jennings on the roster.
It's Great to be a Florida Gator!
The Arizona Cardinals' plan for success:
-Lose all talent on team to retirement and free agency.
-Call it a day.
by Wayward Llama on Mar 16, 2010 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm hoping and praying these 2 are cut within the next couple of weeks
It will restore the shaken faith I have in the new FO. Again, I’m holding final judgments for the actual product. But it’s pretty confusing. Maybe their draft board is loaded with 4th round talent they’re fiending for
by twocolorcrayon on Mar 16, 2010 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions
The Hawks eclectic DE collection
Patrick Kerney
Nick Reed
Ricky Foley
Chris Clemons
Lawrence Jackson
Now that’s a sack-fest waiting to happen.
roll eyes
6/14/40. Sweet.
Ugh
Maybe this is just part of the Cliff Lee deal.
by FizzleDrip on Mar 16, 2010 4:30 PM PDT reply actions 11 recs
as a phillz fan
I still say you got the better of the deal
by sowhatifitisasportste on Mar 16, 2010 6:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Hey look at all those positions go from "needs depth" to "needs a starter"
We just traded young for really old and really unlikely to contribute in the next few years.
Can I be first to say
WHAT IN THE FLYING FUCK.
Maybe this will get me lynched but,
I was never a big fan of Tapp. He seemed to show flashes, but never any consistency. Seems easily replaceable. 2.5 sacks isn’t exactly lighting it up in this league.
There is a chance Tapp never takes off, but he's not 25 yet and was hidden on a couple bad teams.
If Seattle is rebuilding than Tapp is the exact type of player that they shouldn’t be trading, let him play and see if he breaks out.
2.5 sacks in a season with 5 starts, note
More preferred Kerney.
That said, yip, there’s no statistical point where you can note “wow Tapp looked great”, more a combination of youth and potential that slotted him in well with the current Hawks. Clemons seems to have less of both youth and potential.
Well maybe he could had more
but i guess not biting Aaron rodgers again lowered his “Dirt Bag” status a bit and caused Mora to bench him
by somepnoy9189 on Mar 16, 2010 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions
I briefly doubted my own regard for Tapp, early on in the past 2 years.
Look deeper. He’s better than you think.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Tapp was more disruptive than Peterson and Kerney combined.
He’s just not a sack artist. But on the right defense, that may change.
And as John pointed out in one of his writeups, Tapp is right at the age where DE’s make “the leap.”
The only way this trade makes a hint of sense
Is if Seattle moves to a 3-4.
Then again, I don’t recall Clemons ever playing in a 3-4 system.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
As soon as I saw this, I buried my head in my hands and said "You've got to be kidding me."
Ugh, I just can’t see how this can be justified either.
Also a die-hard Hawks fan.
I come to this site and generally enjoy...
…informed, insigtful and interesting comments. But you guys are fucking hilarious going off the double deep end.
by Hawksince77 on Mar 16, 2010 4:41 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
It's Tappegeddon.
And you’re coming with us for the ride.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
informed, insightful, and interesting moves
deserve the same level of comments. Shitty moves deserve the same level of commenting.
by Hancock.Brett on Mar 16, 2010 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions
But you don't even know what this means...
…as there is obviously more to come. I agree that the move is puzzeling, and a shame to create what seems to be another critical hole, but until FA is over and the draft, we don’t know what is being traded for what.
It doesn't matter what they have planned. You don't dump a good young player for lesser value,
and you don’t do it to set up a move allowing you to expend even more resources to fill the hole you’ve just created.
by abender20 on Mar 16, 2010 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I'll play ball
what is left in free agency that could equal what Tapp has already done? no one. We traded a proven commodity, no matter how high or low you value Tapp for a proven backup. Not to mention that we lost 5 years of potential production.
by Hancock.Brett on Mar 16, 2010 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions
What the Seahawks need more than anything...
…is a QB who can throw the ball down the field with some degree of accuracy. Someone who has the potential to develop into a top signal caller.
If the Hawks traded Tapp for a 4th to recoup the pick they plan to trade for Whitehurst then that's colossally stupid.
It doesn’t matter what they get in return for their 4th. The two are independent. If Tapp is worth more than a 4th and is important to the defense, trading him for a 4th is dumb.
The general reaction should be quite insightful.
He was a favorite around these parts and many of us were excited to see what he’d do the next few years as a Hawk coming into his prime.
6/14/40. Sweet.
and
he was only 25, no injury history at all, good against the run and the pass.
by Hancock.Brett on Mar 16, 2010 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Every off-season has players like this
Where everyone circlejerks (excuse the terminology) each other into absolutely falling in love with a player, or being absolutely convinced he’s a dead cert to explode the coming year. Sometimes it’s true, sometimes it’s not, but the love is there, and it’s a positive thing.
Tapp? If it were an option I think there’s Hawks fans that would chain themselves to him in protest before letting him go.
Some of us were opposed to the hiring of Pete Carroll as coach and de-facto GM.
There has been a little bit of evidence leading up to today that Carroll is taking the team in a direction that will be bad for the present and the future. Today is a large chunk of evidence that this is the case.
I signed on to Carroll very quickly
but boy has it been a shit slide down to disgust of late.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Look, I'm glad Seattle is racking up the draft picks (of any kind).
And I’m fine with drafting even some of our favorites, but Tapp should’ve been off-limits.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
Great.
Carroll is going to have to pull a hell of a draft and some sweet FA moves to justify what he’s done so far. Because so far, it’s been a pile of crap.
Now with more lemon bars!
Just you wait.
We’re going to let Sims go via offer sheet and sign Richie Incognito.
6/14/40. Sweet.
"thank you for calling the Seattle Seahawks ticket line"
“I need a refund please”
by Hancock.Brett on Mar 16, 2010 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions
if for some god forsaken reason we signed Richie Incognito
by Hancock.Brett on Mar 16, 2010 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Maybe we could also sign his brother, Guy!
A Mariners fan in Seattle
by Coach Owens on Mar 16, 2010 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wow!!!
We move one player who by no means was making O-linemen shake in their boots, and everyone is predicting a #1 pick for next season!! The draft is where this season and the next few will be made, so don’t cancel your season tickets until we see where all these player moves are leading to.
I'm starting to think we're not in Bavasi trouble territory
We’re in goddamn Dayton Moore disaster land.
by BrianL on Mar 16, 2010 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
It's eerie how similarly some people reacted to the Mariners trading Rafael Soriano for Horacio Ramirez at the end of 2006.
Guess what: stupid moves are stupid.
by Graham on Mar 16, 2010 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions 7 recs
Welcome to Field Gulls where the sky is always falling
And the razor blades are free. Remember kids: perpendicular cuts = hospital and horizontal cuts = morgue.
All The Way, AIRBORNE!!!
by Airborne Hawk Guy on Mar 16, 2010 4:55 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
vertical cuts
equal the morgue….
"Eagles fans are a passionate group who love their team," said McNabb, "if not the actual players. It's not like winning a Super Bowl before the first month of the season is the hardest thing they've ever asked of me. That'd be all those times they asked me to go kill myself."
by greenbean#twoOH on Mar 16, 2010 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions
It's Thunderdome that rules the streets here
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 6:35 PM PDT up reply actions
I think we knew that this season wouldn't be made in free agency.
But it sure as shit can be broken in free agency.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions
We just traded away an affordable 25-year-old DE who is average to above average, at least
No matter what you think of Tapp, we just traded away a dollar for two quarters. Trying to ignore his talent and ability of opinion of future production; considering his age and position of play, you don’t just flippantly push such a guy off the side of the ship.
Schneider and Carroll will say the same bullshit another other GM/front office type would say in this situation; saying something without saying anything at all (if they even bother to discuss it at all). There better be a DAMN GOOD reason for this trade. A DAMN GOOD ONE!
That would make this trade a million times worse
I don’t believe Clausen has a Top 10 draft pick grade. Sure, someone like Washington or Cleveland or Buffalo might draft him….but to trade up for him?
God, why don’t we just cut Aaron Curry and T.J. and John Carlson and Brandon Mebane while we’re at it?
I'm guessing Clemons has played a lot less snaps than Tapp
Yet he still averages more sacks per game than Tapp and had 8 sacks during the same season that Tapp had a career high of 7. Why is everyone over-reacting?
We got more for Darryl Tapp than the Browns got for Brady Quinn.
by Roy Weaver Stuckey on Mar 16, 2010 4:53 PM PDT reply actions
Darryll Tapp is 25, cheap and talented. Clemons is 30 and was mediocre when he was in his prime.
This is a terrible move.
Quit Lying!
Clemons is not 30, he is 28. Still has 3 or 4 years of prim left in him!
by Roy Weaver Stuckey on Mar 16, 2010 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions
I heard he was blind and has no legs.
All The Way, AIRBORNE!!!
by Airborne Hawk Guy on Mar 16, 2010 5:02 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Close, blind and one leg.
Which is almost worse. He still qualifies for the ass-kicking contest, but damned if he’s got any chance of winning.
Goodness, people.
What the Browns did with Quinn has nothing to do with what we got for Tapp.
Sacks are a result of the defense around you, and you’ve decided that because we got a player who had a sack more than Tapp one time, is 5 years older, and is coming off of an injury is a better player?
Clearly he's not better, but the 4th rounder is the real trade. Clemons is a throw-in.
by lemonverbena on Mar 16, 2010 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions
This is proof we aren't going to a 3-4 anytime soon
Tapp is going to be the next Dumervil in a 3-4
by Roy Weaver Stuckey on Mar 16, 2010 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions
As lemon said.
This trade was for the 4th round pick
by Roy Weaver Stuckey on Mar 16, 2010 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions
It's called rebuilding!
Tapp has no place as a DE in a 4-3, he’s proven that the last 4 years.
by Roy Weaver Stuckey on Mar 16, 2010 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions
So you rebuild with a 28 year old DE who hasn't shown any consistency at all?
This is befuddling.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
he's a stop gap... You rebuild with the 4th round pick
You think the Mariners rebuilt with Russel Branyan last year?
by Roy Weaver Stuckey on Mar 16, 2010 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions
You mean the Darryl Tapp whose Sacks have gone down every year since 2007
Who forced 0 fumbles last year? He is not good in a 4-3!
He will flourish in a 3-4 though
by Roy Weaver Stuckey on Mar 16, 2010 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Sacks are a product of the defense around you and context of the game.
Sacks are not the be-all end-all of d-line evaluation.
Our secondary
was awful in 07 and 08. We couldn’t cover anyone, so our defensive line had trouble getting pressure.
Not to mention our offense couldn’t keep the defense off the field to stay fresh and to have a chance to rest.
He had 13 QB hits on top of those 2.5 sacks.
They guy is only 25, had limited playing time, and still managed to get to the QB in almost every game. He has a much better chance of putting together some very productive years than any player we land with that 4th round pick.
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/extra-points/2010/stat-day-qb-hits
by Mind of no mind on Mar 16, 2010 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions
so you're saying...
this was a dumb trade for the eagles, since they run a 4-3. you guys atleast got a 4.
"Eagles fans are a passionate group who love their team," said McNabb, "if not the actual players. It's not like winning a Super Bowl before the first month of the season is the hardest thing they've ever asked of me. That'd be all those times they asked me to go kill myself."
by greenbean#twoOH on Mar 16, 2010 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Those stats are hardly an indicator of his actual ability.
Unless you’re in a fantasy football league.
by DrunkAmerican on Mar 16, 2010 6:59 PM PDT up reply actions
We didn't trade Tapp for Clemons
We traded Tapp for a 4th round pick and got Clemons with it
by Roy Weaver Stuckey on Mar 16, 2010 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Now, granted I don't understand football at all
But doesn’t a rebuild constitute getting rid of old good players and keeping a young core intact while adding draft picks/more young talent to the system? And if so, why would trading a young, apparently adequate DE for a low draft pick be a good rebuilding move?
by Graham on Mar 16, 2010 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
This isn't rebuilding.
At best it’s a completely lateral move short-term and long term it’s mind-numbingly awful.
WHY TRADE HIM?!!!
You know what? If Seattle announced today it would trade Leroy Hill I’d be perfectly fine with it because he’s nearing 28 by the time the season starts and could net high value return.
But Tapp? Ugh!
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
Tapp has potential to be VERY good, whereas Quinn has the potential to be a servicable game manager.
Point being you don’t trade HIGH potential for scraps. Let’s not forget it takes roughly three years for defensive lineman to fully translate into the NFL, yes there are cases where it is instant but he is just entering his PRIME and we don’t get to enjoy it.
Prediction 14 sacks, pro bowl and perhaps all pro, this year next to the rest of the good lineman they have.
by Seahawks4life on Mar 16, 2010 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Okay. That has nothing to do with anything.
And it’s worse than your other argument involving Quinn.
Screw statistics. Clemons has an injury history and is 30. Tapp is 25, full of life, and has great potential. Why trade potential for a given liability?
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
He is not 30! He is 28!
He played in all 16 games for the last 3 years!
by Roy Weaver Stuckey on Mar 16, 2010 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions
So you are just ignoring the 4th round pick that wasn't the throw in
by Roy Weaver Stuckey on Mar 16, 2010 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Neither are 5'10" DEs in a 4-3
People are acting like the Seahawks didn’t call everyone single team in the NFL to see what they could get for Tapp… This is it! This is what Darryl Tapp is worth.
by Roy Weaver Stuckey on Mar 16, 2010 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions
I've stood next to Tapp...
He is not 6’1
by Roy Weaver Stuckey on Mar 16, 2010 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions
That sounds like science to me.
If you choose to determine the talent of a defensive end by their number of sacks, you miss that football requires the strength of the entire team to be successful. Lesser players can clean up sacks in a great defense, good players can struggle to register sacks when saddled with Cole and Terrill. Tapp has been disruptive, registering a lot of pressures and hurries. He’s good.
I sold tapp a camera for his mother a few years back I am 6'0 tall exactly and he was..
DEFINITELY taller than me.
by Seahawks4life on Mar 16, 2010 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions
If aura's counted...
Nick Reed’d be bigger than the Statue of Liberty.
by Chirp on Mar 16, 2010 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
And if you have none,
you’re being unreasonably argumentative. Please state your case, tell us why you don’t think it’s as bad as we think, but don’t patronize us. We’re reasonable people and we not only ask that you act reasonably as well, but insist you act respectfully.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 5:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Full of life?
All The Way, AIRBORNE!!!
by Airborne Hawk Guy on Mar 16, 2010 5:50 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah. Pretty sure Clemons is on his deathbed.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
by SSreporters on Mar 16, 2010 5:51 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I heard from a reliable source that he's 30.
It was in about twenty posts before this one.
by Chirp on Mar 16, 2010 6:39 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Because Tapp is a solid starter with potential yet to be one of the top DEs in the league
and Quinn is more likely to be a bust than a capable QB.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions
What do you want to bet.
John Morgan is driving to the VMAC right as we speak to light a bag of dogshit on their front step.
I hope he's not driving ANYWHERE right now
considering how many bottles of beer this news will be opening.
by John Edwards on Mar 16, 2010 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions
John's still recovering from a writing binge.
Hopefully when he wakes up from his coma someone intelligent will be running this franchise.
He's dedicating the book to Darryl Tapp, and the text reads "Because f*** you Pete Carroll."
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
by SSreporters on Mar 16, 2010 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm getting a Clemons jersey! YES!
I fucking hate you Mariners
I was sorta hoping my next could be Tapp.
Hadn’t made up my mind, but if they’d worked out a long-term contract with him then I’d have thought about it long and hard.
I read that the fourth round pick.....
could be used to pick up Whitehurst
So then they will have essentially
traded a starting DE and the 4th rounder they recieved as compensation for a 28 year old backup QB with no NFL starts. Fockin Great!
Maybe I'll root for the Brown's this year.
Seattle is throw-in’ the towel in. Trade Hasselbeck, trade Branch. Fucking trade everybody. Blow the whole fucking thing up now, please. Don’t stop here. Blow this fucker up, you SOB’s.
It is what it is...
It's like they've put post-it notes with roster moves and player names written on them up on a wall and are shooting darts randomly.
throw dart Franchise throw dart Olindo Mare
throw dart Trade throw dart Darryl Tapp
I wish they'd actually blow up something that'd be nice to see go
Branch, Kerney, Hasselbeck. Mainstays?
I k now nothing about tapp
but what you guys say I guess I should be pretty happy about it…and hang in there
E-A-G-L-E-S EAGLES!!!
I could think of another word that starts with F
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Last year in a preseason game vs. Denver
Tapp chased down Eddie Royal, some twenty yards downfield. I couldn’t believe it. The guy is awesome.
inside of a dog it's too dark to read.
Well that seems a little harsh.
If he were stuck on a crap team out east I might not have heard of him either.
inside of a dog it's too dark to read.
That's not exactly true; barely anyone out east knows the Seahawks even exist
Whenever I stumble onto NFL Network and they actually talk about the Seahawks the host always sound surprised, like they are just finding out about the Seahawks for the first time.
Their body language just screams “not enough people give a crap.”
Yeah, I usually see Sehawks news when they play somebody important enough to cover.
Like, the Patriots. Otherwise, about the only time I’ve seen them on ESPN or NFL network was when they hired the Queen. Or was it the Prime Minister? At any rate, that Carroll guy.
That's not necessary
Leave personal attacks for the free-for-all random message boards
by lemonverbena on Mar 16, 2010 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions
I think he was being extreeeeemely sarcastic
His comment actually left me in stitches.
6/14/40. Sweet.
There's another NFL player named Chris Clemons who is a safety.
Plays for the Dolphins.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
See?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Clemons_(safety)
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
I'm not kidding. These knuckleheads have been out of the NFL for 10 years.
Probably what happened.
"Hey, Carroll, I got the Bears on the phone!
They’ll give us Adrian freaking Peterson for our 2nd round!"
“Hell yeah, pull the trigger on that!” two minutes later: “Wait, the Bears?”
by thebyron on Mar 16, 2010 9:54 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Seattle just lost a year or more in patience from me
in regards to this process. Rebuild I’m fine with. Being stupid, not fine with.
It is what it is...
The ultimate draft disinformation
Make everyone think we are going after Berry or Morgan so teams trade up with Washington and Jimmy Clausen falls to us at 6. It is just so crazy it might work.
Do you honestly want Jimmy Clausen?
No offense but he could barely do anything against the Huskies who had one of the absolute SHITTIEST secondaries this year. Golden Tate saved him from losing that game at home.
Yet all you sheep clamoring for clausen fail to look into his game film.
by Seahawks4life on Mar 16, 2010 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions
I am all for getting a QB of the future...
I just cannot sign off on another terrible ND QB that is a product of a system not true actual elite talent.
If he is drafted for the seahawks that is where my opinion does not matter until then I consider my opinion the correct variety.
by Seahawks4life on Mar 16, 2010 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions
I see that John hasn't weighed in on this one yet
Any chance we could prevent him from getting the news… maybe lock him in a dark basement for a week until this all blows over?
I think he's strapped dynamite to his chest. Only Nick Reed can save him from certain death.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
Some folks think in corporate we're overreacting here.
I’ve seen this kind of overreacting for lots of moves. This is worth nothing, but I believe I tend to not overreact. I am fucking nuclear on this one. This is one of the all-time fuck ups.
Didn't Tapp register among league leaders in QB hits??
I believe he had 13, among the top 10 in the league.
Btw, Curry was our next best with 9.
by swamp_fox on Mar 16, 2010 5:10 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
Yeah where is that fanshot with QB hits John put up?
He was right up there.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
Is that like an almost sack?
he led the league in almost sacks
And sacks called back by penalties
QB hits are useful both as an indicator of quality (those hits can turn into sacks next season with a better supporting cast) and actually useful on the field (to make QBs jittery)
pressure on the QB
which can turn into interceptions if you have a secondary
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Trading a young & improving talent for scraps.
This is Soriano part 2.
And now you've outraged our teachers, Pete Carroll.
ARE YOU HAPPY NOW?
I don't know what's going on in your guys' FO..
but thank you.
I really do hope you guys have something going on behind those office doors though…
Apologies, as I do admit there was a little salt sprinkling onto your wounds…
But sincerely I am worried for the local team and what direction it’s headed in. I hope it doesn’t plummet and eventually get moved to another state (ie. Sonics)
by notfromphilly on Mar 16, 2010 5:56 PM PDT up reply actions
The Seahawks are safe.
By the way when at Field Gulls use the subject line when you comment.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
Will do
I know Tim Allen’s got the $$$, but not many people saw it coming when the Sonics were relocated…
by notfromphilly on Mar 16, 2010 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions
I really can't believe the Toolman would buy the Seahawks. The Lions maybe.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
Hey now, Jill has the ability to be a saint.
by Seahawks4life on Mar 16, 2010 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions
I could totally see Wilson being a GM.
He seems like a wise guy. Weird but wise.
RIP Earl Hindman
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
Haha oops
*Paul Allen. A slight difference :shrug:
by notfromphilly on Mar 16, 2010 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Relocation? that's a bit of a stretch
but yeah, enjoy Tapp.
No worries.
The Seahawks won’t be moved. Paul Allen and the rest of the ownership group are locally based, even in bad years the team is profitable, so there’s little reason to think they team will be sold to some out-of-state ownership group.
That and the NFL recognizes the importance of the Seattle market.
I hear the Iggles are in negotiations to move to Mexico City
by lemonverbena on Mar 16, 2010 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Really?
How’s the market for sports there?
by notfromphilly on Mar 16, 2010 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions
You're welcome
I sincerely hope he does well for you.
by Vasilii on Mar 16, 2010 5:19 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
CSNPhilly says it's two years
Also, dig the commentary
"Darryl is a very intense football player and we’re happy to acquire him," said head coach Andy Reid. "He plays very hard every snap. He’s smart, he’s a good person and he’ll fit very well into our defensive scheme."
"Darryl is an up-and-coming player in this league, in my opinion," said Eagles GM Howie Roseman. "He’s a good player and a good person, and we liked him very much coming out of Virginia Tech. We believe he’ll be a good addition to our defensive line."
(should I put this in a new fanshot btw, not always sure of the habits/rules)
The more I think about this trade, the more it bugs me.
It feels like this FO has way too much confidence in its ability to scout out talent, and is overvaluing the later round draft picks. Why? Because why the hell else would you trade Tapp for a stopgap player and a 4th rounder? The only reasoning I can think is that they think they can get a better 4th rounder then Tapp. Which is highly unlikely. And if they think that, then Carroll is on his own bandwagon about his drafting ability. Which..well..shit. God I hope that’s not the case.
Now with more lemon bars!
by Fear on Mar 16, 2010 5:23 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
They could have held their ground and gotten Philly's 2nd.
Not quite double the value of what we got, but close.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions
So we're in the Mike Hargrove era.
Lou Pinella = Mike Holmgren
Bob Melvin = Jim Mora
Mike Hargrove = Pete Carroll
John McLaren = ??
Jim Riggleman = ??
Don Wakamatsu = ????
We have a long fucking way to go until Jack Zduriencik comes along and hires the right coach.
I loved the head turning state down McLaren could give an umpire
if they could be turned into winning we would be the fucking Red Sox.
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions
sometimes you have to hit rock bottom
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 5:35 PM PDT up reply actions
cmaaaaan tapp was under contract for 1 more season.
Tapp’s going to be behind Trent Cole in Philly. Rotation man. People are shitting bricks. We got good value out of him.
This isn't Madden ;)
you can’t just sign someone long-term without them wanting it
by Roy Weaver Stuckey on Mar 16, 2010 5:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Nick Reed can
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 5:41 PM PDT up reply actions
So we're trading promising talent for aging unfulfilled talent?
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
Do you really want to know?
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 5:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually thats average years started
Either way, I think we could expect Tapp to start for more than 2 years.
Exactly
The Seahawks probably felt they weren’t going to be winners by the time Tapp was a UFA so they might as well get even younger for what talent they actually have and then get a stop gap until they feel they can acquire a real DE
by Roy Weaver Stuckey on Mar 16, 2010 5:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Who's to say they didn't try?
Being on a crappy defense 2 years in a row winning a combined 9 games doesn’t exactly make players want to extend.
Let alone 3 coaches in 3 years.
by Roy Weaver Stuckey on Mar 16, 2010 5:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Roy is most likely just trying to act like a toilet...
and stir shit up.
by Seahawks4life on Mar 16, 2010 5:54 PM PDT up reply actions
If this was the case, the resulting compensatory draft pick would hold equal or greater value
and would be greater in sum when combined with the services of 25 year old Tapp.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions
There is a lot of talent that comes from the 4th round
Ruskell never could find it but it is there
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Well shit there goes that
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions
You don't trade good, young players in a rebuild.
You trade aging vets.
based on what we've seen from the trade market this winter/spring
4th is alright by me for Tapp. Anquan Boldin was traded along with a 5th rounder, for a 3rd and a 4th.
I think Baltimore is thinking, we can keep making playoff runs during the course of boldins...
4 year contract.
Aging and oft-injured.
Whose playing style is conducive to more injuries.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 5:54 PM PDT up reply actions
That 4th round pick will likely never amount to what we could have gotten out of Tapp.
It most likely won’t come anywhere close.
Tapp is 25.
He’s young. A good DE at that age is incredibly valuable and we gave him up for peanuts.
If he is such an incredible value,
why weren’t teams lining up to give up a 3rd round or a 2nd round pick to get him?
There's no telling.
The team may have done a shitty job of looking at their options. They may not have been open. They may have undervalued Tapp just like you are.
The front office is not immune from criticism.
This is a bad, bad personnel move and they deserve to be called out for it.
Yeah but if he's only under contract for another year or two
Than how much good comes out of having him on our team during losing, rebuilding years?
by Roy Weaver Stuckey on Mar 16, 2010 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions
You hang on to him until an offer that better resembles his value comes along.
The team didn’t have to trade Tapp right now.
Was Tapp happy here?
Did he want to play LB? They need one and we are set at that position maybe he made it known that he wants out to go play LB without being a bitch like Boldin.
At least that is how I am spinning it.
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 5:50 PM PDT up reply actions
I really think he will be moved to OLB in Philly
by Roy Weaver Stuckey on Mar 16, 2010 5:51 PM PDT up reply actions
better than being annoyed that I paid for the Sunday ticket
and they go on suck balls again.
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions
nah - stay with your team
just trying to homerize it
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 6:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Anquan Boldin is older than Tapp and was trying to force his way out of Arizona.
The Cardinals were also under serious financial constraints because of his contract and others.
I bet he's going to get switched to OLB
by Roy Weaver Stuckey on Mar 16, 2010 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions
That's what bothers me the most
Why didn’t we offer this to a 3 – 4 team and get a pick and player from them.
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 5:41 PM PDT up reply actions
I doubt it
Tapp doesn’t strike me as a linebacker in a 4-3.
He strikes me as a Philly 4-3 OLB.
Which happens to be one of their biggest need. And certainly their biggest need in the front seven.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 5:56 PM PDT up reply actions
How is trading a 25 year old promising starting end for a 4th round pick and a back up good value?
Also, he just signed a two year extension with the Eagles.
It's terrible value
Maybe Clemons is better than we think, but still a 4th round pick closer to the end of the round does not satisfy me. I fear for Mebane.
You mean he will start across from Trent Cole
over Darren Howard.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions
But you do raise a good counter point that hadn't occurred to me.
If we only had Tapp for one more year, then this is something in return.
But that assumes we couldn’t get him re-signed. Distinct possibility, but unknown. And also doesn’t factor in the compensatory pick we may have yielded from it, which may have ended up being more valuable. I mean, if Tapp breaks out like I think he will — he already signed an extension with Philly, only 2 years, but if he was with us this year, had the year I think he would, then had left to a free agent contract, the size of that contract and the quality of his play could make the pick a 2nd or 3rd (end of 2nd or 3rd round). More valuable. So, poor move.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 5:51 PM PDT up reply actions
That kind of assumes Tapp wanted out of Seattle
Which is certainly possible, though we’ve seen no signs for it. It’d be the only thing that could explain this trade, really.
Or that like most players he's willing to play for the highest bidder.
Which I don’t hold against him or any of the rest of them at all. The typical contract extension scale is a good deal smaller than the open free agent market scale, and even with ridiculous rookie signing bonuses, rookie contracts are much smaller. 3rd-generation contracts usually are back to the rookie scale, buttressed by veteran minimums and other tenure stipulations.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, I like that we got a 4th rounder.
I despise what we gave up to get it.
I think that is very well put
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 5:38 PM PDT up reply actions
"Got" a first rounder
If I just get a brandnew mountain bike, I’d love it.
If I trade in my Rolls Royce and all I got is a Lada and a mountain bike, somehow I can’t look at the mountain bike and go “yaaaaaay”.
Just sayin’
I love getting draft picks.
I don’t love giving up stronger value to get them, although I’m nowhere near enough of an expert to know the exact values of this trade. It just feels…unnecessary and…incongruous. Stripping away older veterans and bloated contracts in order to stock up on youth and talent I could understand, but how does dumping Tapp fit?
by John Edwards on Mar 16, 2010 5:38 PM PDT up reply actions
We just got worse.
Tapp’s best years are ahead of him – this is wasting a 2nd round pick.
I vow to never post a cartoon picture of spurting diarrhea on a credible blog.
/dick joke
And how much of that time was spent as a backup?
He’s NFL starter material now – what you hope your pick becomes, namely, reliable impact.
He was just getting there, IMHO.
I vow to never post a cartoon picture of spurting diarrhea on a credible blog.
/dick joke
STARTER Material?
We got 5 starts out of him last year in a complete failure of a year. How many starts would he be getting on a contending team? I’m not sure.
You are underestimating the frustrating stubborness of Mora.
He refused to play anyone that wasn’t a “starter” in his book.
Now with more lemon bars!
And personnel misuse by the coaching staff.
Colin Cole! Craig Terrill!
I'm not holding that against him.
I blame scheme more than anything for making everyone on our defense look worse than they actually were. But at this point in the seahawks junction, I for one am glad we got good value from him in a trade.
I'll be as succinct as I can.
We did not get good value for him.
He had 32 starts with the Seahawks through 2009.
Clemons has never started an NFL game. Not one.
He wasn’t even drafted.
I vow to never post a cartoon picture of spurting diarrhea on a credible blog.
/dick joke
I believe he started 5.
but over 5 years, and on bad teams, and since he was a pass rush specialist each time, probably due to injury.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions
NFL.com says 3
1 for the Skins in 05, 2 for the Raiders in 07. 3 sacks in those 2 games by the Raiders
8 sacks that season was p good. It might also have been his peak.
Jackson started over Tapp by Ruskell decree
he didn’t earn it, and Tapp earned it back.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 6:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Without context, maybe.
But those 4 years are like buying a house in Beacon Hill in 1999 and then selling in 2003. OK, you got some respectable equity out of it.
If you’d waited til 2006, though, you’d have almost doubled your return.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Biggest winner today: San Francisco 49ers
I mean, Arizona and Seattle is losing talent left, right, and center.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
Yes, San Fran is the favorite.
Arizona is still in the conversation. But can’t argue San Fran is the fav.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Good young players don't get traded in rebuilds.
That’s not how a rebuild works.
cmaaaaaaan. Really?
I’ve loved Tapp from the moment we drafted him. I still remember that preseason after we drafted him. I’ve loved his hustle since day one. I just feel that we are all overvaluing Daryll Tapp. He was a fan favorite for sure. I think that is playing into it.
It's not that he's a proven world beater.
It’s that he was shipped off for a 4th round pick and a scrub. 4th rounders arn’t worth much, Tapp is certainly worth more then that. He was more in line with a 2nd rounder.
Now with more lemon bars!
Then....just hold onto to Tapp, if the market it bad don't trade him.
by MFAN on Mar 16, 2010 6:01 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
You do realize that if the trade market isn't as good as you were hoping, you could always KEEP THE FUCKING PLAYER ON YOUR TEAM.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
by Benne on Mar 16, 2010 6:01 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
If the market is bad you pull the player off the block and wait for the market to reestablish.
You are not compelled to trade him.
by BrianL on Mar 16, 2010 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
You are proving our point
Why are we trading the only valuable players we have? We didn’t even get rid of one of the old guys with this joke?
Not true.
That’s exactly how bad rebuilds work. You know, the kind that take 10 years?
Now with more lemon bars!
Oh crap if Mebane was traded I think 80% of Field Gulls would commit suicide.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
think about it though, I feel bad for Mebane now
He needs support to really flash his potential and we just got rid of Tapp and got some guy named Clemmons.
Maurice Clemmons?
Shit, the FO is even worse than I thought.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Make it a 3 player deal
Wilson, Curry, and Forsett
What is the term for the phenomena of people overvaluing their own personal property.
Shit I need to bust out “predictably irrational” by Dan Ariely
How do you see us picking up anything with better value in the 4th round?
Name me a fourth rounder that will contribute next year more than Tapp would have, and I will believe that the FG is overvaluing what we had in Tapp.
by seattle_since_81 on Mar 16, 2010 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions
We're not overvaluing him.
You are severely undervaluing how important a 25-year old DE with a good skillset is.
You also need to realize that rebuilds do not involve trading players like this, ever.
You trade a player like Tapp if you’re in contention and need to make a marginal improvement elsewhere on the roster.
I don't understand. Full rebuild is trading Trufant, Hill, Hasselbeck, etc.
Whilst keeping young, good, promising talent.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
If you really think trading young, cheap talent for older, lesser talent, congratulations! You're Dayton Moore!
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
That meant to say "rebuilding means trading....."
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
You realize you make no sense?
So the one tradeable asset…aka the only good valuable talent you have should be traded to rebuild with a pick that result in a WR like Butler being picked who has done….umm nothing as a Seahawk?
If that were the case
garbage like Craig Terrill, Patrick Kerney, Kelly Jennings, and Colin Cole would have already been dumped.
It's Great to be a Florida Gator!
The Arizona Cardinals' plan for success:
-Lose all talent on team to retirement and free agency.
-Call it a day.
by Wayward Llama on Mar 17, 2010 3:36 AM PDT up reply actions
To quote Edgar Allan Poe -
“But the fact is I was napping, and so gently you came rapping,
And so faintly you came Tapping, Tapping at my chamber door,
That I scarce was sure I heard you’ – here I opened wide the door; -
Darkness there, and nothing more.”
by John Edwards on Mar 16, 2010 6:11 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe Allen and the FO thought the Seahawks competed with the Sounders for attention
and he likes the sounders more?
I know you're joking, but that's silly.
There’s more money to be made in football than MLS soccer.
But its all about potential and building a WHOLE LEAGUE from the ground up
Just like a football team. Shit you could buy half the MLS with the value of the Seahawks until this trade
Anyone see Chris Clemons Choke Slam Tarvaris Jackson?
by Roy Weaver Stuckey on Mar 16, 2010 6:01 PM PDT reply actions
After actually watching the highlight...what is impressive about lighting up a QB in defensive mode?
See, this makes it worse.
I’d only read descriptions of this, which apparently has some notoriety. I assumed it occurred during actual QB pressure.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 6:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Awesome, he blew up a QB trying to make a play QBs have no business trying to make.
I’m totally sold on this guy now.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Here's the vid of him returning a forced fumble for a TD...looks fast
by Roy Weaver Stuckey on Mar 16, 2010 6:01 PM PDT reply actions
Dallas self destructed in that game. While fun, I really ain't persuaded by one highlight.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
He looks fast because he outran Marc Columbo?
It’s probably fast for a defensive end. Because he weighs 240.
Which hold little value; quickness against the tackle is where an ends value lies.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 6:14 PM PDT up reply actions
I grew up in Dallas and remember when Jimmy Johnson came to town
There were a lot of personnel moves people didn’t like. In the end it worked out for them.
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
Please don't say "Wally Walker" and "Sonics"
Still hurts too much.
by lemonverbena on Mar 16, 2010 6:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Again, though.
old, established vets. And were the Johnson Cowboys built on amassing late round picks? They were built on amassing high picks, in a different market, an approach that was itself built on the King’s ransom for Hershel Walker.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 6:17 PM PDT up reply actions
The Tapp love is getting a little ridiculous around these parts.
Don’t delude yourselves about who he was in Seattle
You're missing the point entirely.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
by SSreporters on Mar 16, 2010 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I liked Tapp
I did not LOVE LOVE LOVE Tapp.
My “Oh Shit” reaction is based purely on the shitty process shown by our new FO.
And holy shit the process is bad bad bad.
This is a horrifying glimpse into how the organization is being run.
by BrianL on Mar 16, 2010 6:08 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think that you get that it is not just about Tapp about himself.
It’s about the fact that we traded away a 25 year old DE with potential to be great (based on statistics) for a 28 (almost 29 year old) backup and a 4th rounder. You don’t trade away young potential for a draft pick and a backup. I don’t care if that players name is Tapp or any other player. You don’t trade away a young player with potential when you are rebuilding.
by seattle_since_81 on Mar 16, 2010 6:08 PM PDT up reply actions
So who wants to drag out the Paul DePodesta Success Matrix for the 9,000th time?
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Thank you.
What PattyB and Roy Stuckey need to understand is, it’s not particularly about the actual players involved, it’s emblematic of the thought process behind the decisions. So far, Carroll and puppet Schneider have proven to have very, very bad thought processes. This is why we’re angry and fearful for the future.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Possibly.
It’s not about what he did, but what he was about to do. Not what he accomplished, but what potential he had left in him, on top of some very promising 4-year development.
It’s somewhat out of hand, but honestly, Patty, your undervaluation is more off the mark than our overvaluation. And the reaction here is also reaction to a bad personnel move, and to questionable strategic implications.
One thing I would point out to you, in this rebuilding discussion, is the state of the Seahawks and the fanbase has left us in a paradigm where the new regime does not have even as much time as “normal” (if that can even be quantified) which is already mightily constricted, in the NFL. Throwing away this year in order to amass talent over the next two years, or three years, is questionable first because of the reasons already given to you, but secondly because Carroll and Schneider probably won’t have more than a 2nd year if they throw this one away. Their 2nd year would be playoffs or bust.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 6:22 PM PDT up reply actions
He was our best DE.
It's Great to be a Florida Gator!
The Arizona Cardinals' plan for success:
-Lose all talent on team to retirement and free agency.
-Call it a day.
by Wayward Llama on Mar 16, 2010 6:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Nick Reed is a mediocre DE.
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
I know we all love to Norricise Reed,
but in reality, he’s lucky to have made the squad. I would have rather we kept Michael Bennett. Or Darryl Tapp.
It's Great to be a Florida Gator!
The Arizona Cardinals' plan for success:
-Lose all talent on team to retirement and free agency.
-Call it a day.
by Wayward Llama on Mar 17, 2010 3:39 AM PDT up reply actions
This always happens...
New coaching staff + New front office = removing players acquired during the previous regime.
Tapp was good and valuable??????
He was OK at best and it is his time to move on.
by SeahawkSammy on Mar 16, 2010 6:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, he was.
Many, many words have been written about Tapp here at Field Gulls. Many links have been posted in this thread.
I can't rationalize this trade.
I’ll hate it more if Tapp becomes the player we think he’ll become.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
You need to stop trolling.
Go take a timeout.
Once the FO does a good move
I believe is when people will
by seattle_since_81 on Mar 16, 2010 6:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Sorry didn't mean to hit post
but until the FO shows a good process for moves, I believe we can react how we feel.
by seattle_since_81 on Mar 16, 2010 6:12 PM PDT up reply actions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxqoaZryEjQ
by Roy Weaver Stuckey on Mar 16, 2010 6:13 PM PDT up reply actions
when I click that link it brings me back here
by Roy Weaver Stuckey on Mar 16, 2010 6:15 PM PDT up reply actions
As it should because it's the subject line and not suitable for any links.
The subject line links to the specific comment.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
Are the people supporting this trade being purposefully obtuse?
I keep seeing the same exact comment being posted. “Blah blah stupid Tapp love. Rebuild. 4th rounder.”
The process is what is horrible; the implication that we could be doing business like this for a few years is reason to be angry with your franchise. Losing a YOUNG talent, for OLD talent and a draft pick of lesser value is not rebuilding.
The people who are continuing to bang the “good deal” drum are not discussing or using valid arguments. They are repeating themselves without any support except fallacies: that’s called Trolling.
I'm beginning to think people who don't know how valuable Tapp was
Don’t understand how football works. Or don’t know how to use discernment when reading stat lines.
Many times the only guy on the line managing to disrupt the offense.
He looked good even when he was surrounded by crap.
they don't
…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI
Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!
by jubelthebear on Mar 16, 2010 6:17 PM PDT up reply actions
This trade could be the start of many to come.
I feel that this is just the tip of the iceberg
by SeahawkSammy on Mar 16, 2010 6:15 PM PDT up reply actions
So does this mean
we’re rebuilding or debuilding or WTF?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI
Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!
by jubelthebear on Mar 16, 2010 6:17 PM PDT up reply actions
So if personnel moves are the iceberg, does that make the Seahawks the Titanic?
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Favorite Tapp moment: Manhandling the Rams in 2007 and sacking Bulger 4 times.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
Also, he grabbed a clean INT right at the line against Derek Anderson when he had that good season for the Browns.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
DA - now that is some talent we should pick up.
Franchise QB….
Is sacking Bulger a career defining moment?
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 6:18 PM PDT up reply actions
No, but being a 2nd year DE and being a manbeast (albeit against a piss-poor Rams team)
Is signs of hope.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
Wasn't it Tapp who smashed Favre into the ground this season along with Redding (or Mebane)?
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
Your 2010 Starting Defensive Line
Kerney, Clemons, Cole, and Nick Reed
See its actually a 3-4 defense, because Reed plus Clemons equal one full defensive lineman
Nothing against Reed, I like the guy as much as anyone…especially is hustle
OK, thanks a lot
Now I have to go take my anxiety medication thanks a lot dude…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI
Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!
by jubelthebear on Mar 16, 2010 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions
2008 never happened....its a a conspiracy. 9 comes after 7.
by illwillbli on Mar 16, 2010 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
this seemed funnier in my mind....and came out horribly stupid in print
apologize for fail
Why is 6 afraid of 7?
Because 7-8-9!!!
Feel any better?
by John Edwards on Mar 16, 2010 7:49 PM PDT up reply actions
I might just literally and fervently pray to God that won't come to be.
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
Maybe everyone is pissed off because they just bought Tapp's jersey!!!!
Now it’s making sense!!!
It's not like he was Dwight Freeny anyhow.
by SeahawkSammy on Mar 16, 2010 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Resist.Urge.To.Comment.Ever.Again.To.People.Overreacting
by SeahawkSammy on Mar 16, 2010 6:25 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not trying to incite..
I just can’t believe how people are reacting to one trade that I feel is the start of a whole bunch of changes. Our front office and coaching staff has been overhauled, so the next logical step is that our team will be overhauled.
by SeahawkSammy on Mar 16, 2010 6:31 PM PDT up reply actions
If one move is already not intelligent, what precedent will that set for the rest of the trades?
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
Eactly, and that's the obtuse part.
Have you not seen all the “The Process” posts? It’s bad process like this that lead to franchises like the Lions/Cardinals/Browns/Bengals.
That is what people are afraid of.
I can't wait for this process to end...
so we all can determine whether of not this is the start of something good or bad.
by SeahawkSammy on Mar 16, 2010 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions
You can start determining whether the process is good or bad long before the offseason ends.
Trading Seneca Wallace for perhaps less than he could have gotten in draft compensation, franchising Olindo Mare, and dealing Tapp for a low pick and a scrub are all bad processes. In the micro, it may not seem all that bad, but in the macro the trend is very disturbing.
The Process. THE FUCKING PROCESS IS WHAT'S REALLY WRONG WITH THIS
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
AND NO, I DON'T TRUST THE FUCKING PROCESS.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Once again...
EVERYONE that is angered by this move is for the reason previously stated, WHY would you downgrade considerably to pick up a 4th round pick.
This trade heavily favors the eagles, and all you people that seem to think otherwise enjoy the fried crow when tapp is in the probowl because of the talent around him being NFL CALIBER.
by Seahawks4life on Mar 16, 2010 6:23 PM PDT up reply actions
It's also about value for our system
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't mind the trade
Clearly they didn’t value Tapp the way some here do. If he wasn’t going to be a piece of the solution then you shop him for what you can get and the market decided it was a 4th and Clemmons. I was more upset when I saw reports of a late round pick but a 4 th is ok with or w/o Clemmons.
I’ll wait til the offseason is over to pass judgement.
by bilbo on Mar 16, 2010 6:21 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
I think that's fair. I don't agree, but this is probably what Tapp is worth, so I don't think Seattle was actually robbed.
Just would of been happier if they kept Tapp.
That market value is probably low is fair.
It’s already been said, though, didn’t have to trade him.
Him not fitting into the plans is weak. You still rush the passer in football, don’t you?
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Is it robbed we gave up the goods
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 6:29 PM PDT up reply actions
What the fuck happened to "Proactive like non-stop"?
“I don’t think that word means what you think it means.”
INCONCEIVABLE!!!
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 6:24 PM PDT up reply actions
This is one of the saddest statements I've ever heard
by lemonverbena on Mar 16, 2010 6:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Nice!
It's Great to be a Florida Gator!
The Arizona Cardinals' plan for success:
-Lose all talent on team to retirement and free agency.
-Call it a day.
by Wayward Llama on Mar 17, 2010 3:51 AM PDT up reply actions
So does John Schneider do anything other than play with the putting green in his office?
I like to think Schneider has a putting green in his office.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Okay folks start behaving and being nice to eachother.
I’ve already had to put a temporary ban on one person today, let’s not add to that list.
I'm fine now.
I’m going back to playing God of War 3 and pretending this never happened. Blech. At least the Mariners are good again.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Until he gets traded to the Giants for a delicious NY pizza.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
I got to admit, dumping Rocky Bernard was a good idea.
He’s been invisible in New York.
Mebane though? Instant kickass.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
And then PattyB will come along and say "hey, NY pizza is awesome! This is totally a fair trade!"
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
by Benne on Mar 16, 2010 6:32 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Can ANYONE
think of ANY redeeming aspects; whether they be improbable or highly unlikely; to this trade?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI
Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!
We use our 4th rounder to draft a future hall-of-fame.....punter.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
Tapp could of left for free agency next season and then we might of gotten nothing.
Again I don’t like the deal, but almost every deal as some redeeming quality.
Redeeming, no.
The positives are that there was some return.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 6:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Jared Allen was a 4th round pick
maybe that Daniel Te’o-Nesheim fella?
That is one of the things I was thinking
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 6:33 PM PDT up reply actions
wait I got it:
Berry falls to the 4th round ? shrugs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI
Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!
Totally unscientific analysis follows
A few here have said that a 4th-round pick isn’t worth much. The pick we just got from Philly is 4-21. Without taking a pro or con position, let’s look at a few players drafted in the 4th round at 21 or lower.
2009
4 27 127 Austin Collie Colts WR Brigham Young
4 33 133 Tyronne Green Chargers DT Auburn
2008
4 22 121 Red Bryant Seahawks DT Texas A&M
4 23 122 Tashard Choice Cowboys RB Georgia Tech
2007
4 21 120 Baraka Atkins Seahawks DE Miami (FL)
4 38 137 Le’Ron McClain Ravens RB Alabama
2006
4 21 118 Stephen Gostkowski Patriots K Memphis
4 22 119 Brandon Marshall Broncos WR Central Florida
4 29 126 Elvis Dumervil Broncos DE Louisville
4 31 128 Rob Sims Seahawks G Ohio State
A low 4th rounder could be anything from an outright bust to an all-star. But it isn’t garbage.
Fricking hell. All three of our past 4th round picks could be gone by this season.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
For further reading
I’ve linked to it before, but now seems like a good time to bring it back up again.
Stand by your team
This isn’t the Hershel Walker to the vikings trade
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions
I get to bang a brain damaged Goldie Hawn slightly after her prime?
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 6:38 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Well I don't live in Seattle anymore
So I have to get a package deal, I think I’ll just watch any national games we get out here instead of shelling out the mad paper to watch them.
by ungoreatstefan on Mar 16, 2010 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions
You are sent into a dark abyss and shall never return.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
I think I understand what is going on here.
Clearly, Pete Carroll thought we had too much pass rush.
I vow to never post a cartoon picture of spurting diarrhea on a credible blog.
/dick joke
Well folks, this was helpful, I feel better now
To better Seahawks news tomorrow
Tomorrow's news will read JOHN SWAP: Schneider fired, Morgan hired
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
What happens when makes a shitty trade?
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 6:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Does Nick Reed make a bad tackle?
The answer is No, so not an issue
He won't. President of Player Personnel/Player Brandon Mebane will block all trades deemed poor.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
He bullrushed the security staff and dropped the phone for a 4 yard loss.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
by SSreporters on Mar 16, 2010 6:44 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Tomorrow's most commented profootballtalk article
“Charlie Whitehurst Signs with Cardinals”
sooo 3 years 6.5 million for this guy?
Clemons is under contract through 2012 at base salaries over the next three seasons of $1.2 million, $2.3 million, and $3 million.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/03/16/eagles-seahawks-swap-defensive-ends/
Nick Reed once sneezed and impregnated 43 women.
2 of them weren’t born ‘til he year 2567. One of those was Mebane’s mother.
Seriously though is Nick Reed going to be good?
is this part of it. Carroll knows Nick Reed
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
I'm no talent evaluator
but Reed’s upside is probably that of a decent-ish rotational DE. I wouldn’t expect that he’s ever going to be taking the majority of snaps for a competing team.
Memetic mutation aside, this is pretty much the same way I feel.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
I'm biased about him because I am a Duck
He was a great college player (for my team) and I can’t see past it
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 6:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Tomorrow morning at 6:32 am
Mountain Time
by B.B.Finnegan on Mar 16, 2010 7:26 PM PDT up reply actions
I'll be at the gym then
so I can be the first to post!!!
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 7:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Regarding value,
I think there’s a lot of hyberbole going on here regarding Tapp’s value. He was tendered at a second round value, which means the Seahawks put his initial value at a 2-32 draft pick. Presumably, if another team wanted him, they could have tendered him a poison pill contract at second round value. More likely, if they wanted him they would call the ‘Hawks and offer a trade at lower value.
We have to assume that other teams weren’t knocking down our door to trade for him, so it follows that the league valued him a lot less than people on this site do. Frankly I don’t see why everyone is so worked up. He just seems so….average.
Average is valuble.
Average is worth more than a 4th round pick.
it signifies terrible process
which is how teams get into their perpetual tailspin.
by Hancock.Brett on Mar 16, 2010 7:01 PM PDT up reply actions
potentially
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 7:01 PM PDT up reply actions
it does
the only way we can predict there future decisions and abilities is by what they have already done. So far that is cut Deon Grant and give up Tapp for a worse version of Patrick Kerney and a likely terrible draft pick.
by Hancock.Brett on Mar 16, 2010 7:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Apparantly the league disagrees
Did anyone offer anything better?
The point being
That it’s hard to criticize the value we got in return, when it appears that no one offered anything better.
again its still very valid to criticize
it doesn’t matter what the rest of the league does, we don’t have to trade Tapp.
by Hancock.Brett on Mar 16, 2010 7:04 PM PDT up reply actions
True
It’s also valid to be happy with perceived value.
no comment due to mod rules
I could perceive that Aaron Curry is worth a 7th round draft pick, that doesn’t make it true.
by Hancock.Brett on Mar 16, 2010 7:06 PM PDT up reply actions
We have no idea.
We don’t know who the team talked to, how the team actually valued Tapp internally, and how aggressively they shopped him.
Despite that, if the team didn’t get an offer that met Tapp’s value, they are under no obligation to trade him.
What we do know is how valuable a 25 year old DE with good skills is.
The return we got for that kind of a player was lacking.
My whole view on this is
That we have no idea on what happened or what talks went on. Tapp very may well have wanted to play closer to home, or turned down contract offers from us.
We can't evaluate trades based on things we don't know.
We can only evaluate based on what we do know, and what we know tells us this was a bad, bad trade.
Purely opinion of course
I understand a lot of people here like him. I think others around the league may disagree.
Yeah, they don't last long though
We may or may not be in that position. Matt Millen comes to mind for one that survived way too long.
But you can't know that for sure.
What we’ve seen both on film and in the numbers indicates that Tapp is a productive, cheap, young DE. That leads us to the conclusion that he’s valuable.
How long was he going to be cheap?
One more year?
At least.
If the team capitalizes on their leverage they could have signed him to a fair contract.
If he was as valuable as people think here
He wouldn’t be cheap.
He's cheap now, which still adds to his value.
Even if he becomes more expensive, he’s still valuable.
It's like why we should have signed Felix to an extension last year
and not dicked around for a year.
Now with more lemon bars!
Felix should have been signed to an extension when Bavasi was the GM.
Of all the players to lowball and avoid the arbitration process with, he ignored Felix. Good lord.
Ya that's what I meant.
You sign guys before they break out and have awesome seasons. Generally this means taking a guy about to enter his prime who has shown promise, and extending him. And bam, you look like a genius when he “breaks out”.
Now with more lemon bars!
?
It’s a rebuttal to the cheap portion of his description.
we're not rebuilding, we're reloading!!
oh bother
by B.B.Finnegan on Mar 16, 2010 7:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Base on his past performance
I don’t expect a break out. There’s no way to know for sure.
He was an exceptionally skilled DE last season.
His numbers would have looked drastically better had the defense as a whole been better. He was as disruptive as any DE in the league.
For quarterback pressures?
Some DE’s had almost as many sacks as he had pressures.
Did those DEs play on teams with great DLs or Secondaries?
If Tapp had either of those, those pressures would have been translated into sacks. Lo, the interconnectedness of football!
We don't know that
He could have been washed out by better players.
Really?
You’re going to suggest that Tapp would not have been more effective if he had more pressure coming from the middle or the other side? Even if the sacks came from another play, they would be dependent on Tapp’s ability to create pressure, forcing the QB to step up.
Yes
But to say he’s as disruptive as any DE is a bit of hyberbole.
Not really.
Someone got a link to that Football Outsiders article?
so if I understand you
your basis for his on field performance, is what other teams were willing to give up for him?
by Hancock.Brett on Mar 16, 2010 7:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Sorry
to disagree, but I have to tend to my newborn. At this point I’ll just agree to disagree. I think the value we got for him is fine.
I disagree that it was fair.
We got less than what he was worth.
Yeah, I've been back and forth on it.
I guess just looking a Tapp’s production so far I think it’s fair, but Tapp has tremendous potential to breakout so it would of just been wise to hold onto him.
Well let's put it this way
Would you trade Aaron Curry for anything less than a first despite only having an okay-ish season last year?
I wouldn't, but if Curry has two more seasons like last year than I wouldn't expect anyone to offer a 1st rounder.
This is why I say keep Tapp, I don’t think his value on the market is better than his value to Seattle…if that make sense.
What was wrong with the process again?
People keep throwing this out there and I have no idea what the heck they’re talking about.
the process
of acquiring cheap, young, proven talent. Not looking to get older at key positions. Drafting well. so far they are 0/2 with an incomplete.
by Hancock.Brett on Mar 16, 2010 7:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Is this your idea of the process? or the teams? What does any of that have to do with this trade?
Tapp was about to get expensive. More then Clemmens? I don’t know, I wonder if his contract will be re-worked. A 4th rounder will be super young and cheap though.
As far as cheap, young, AND proven, you don’t get all three (certainly not in free agency) and you’re only shot at all three is through the draft.
by B.B.Finnegan on Mar 16, 2010 7:19 PM PDT up reply actions
They're both truly excellent articles that changed the way I look at roster construction in sports.
I can’t recommend enough that you read them.
It means you have to trust it.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Oh yeah now I'm just annoyed.
Okay how about this….
Seahawks 34 Panthers 14
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
Nothing like living in the past
to make a guy feel better.
It's Great to be a Florida Gator!
The Arizona Cardinals' plan for success:
-Lose all talent on team to retirement and free agency.
-Call it a day.
by Wayward Llama on Mar 17, 2010 3:56 AM PDT up reply actions
Further evidence the Eagles are run by smart people
And one of the first pieces of evidence that we are not.
by Gihyou on Mar 16, 2010 7:15 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
They are a well run organization
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 7:22 PM PDT up reply actions
That they immediately signed him to a new deal does make me a bit uneasy
But, I’m still going to wait and see how this all shakes out. It’s not even April yet.
by lemonverbena on Mar 16, 2010 7:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Additional moves, the draft, undrafted FA's, overall roster construction
by lemonverbena on Mar 16, 2010 7:33 PM PDT up reply actions
ITT: fear and loathing
The good doctor recommends the uppers.
All The Way, AIRBORNE!!!
by Airborne Hawk Guy on Mar 16, 2010 7:26 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
I just read this again and got really depressed.
For anyone thinking we got fair value in this trade, please read.
I am now convinced that Pete Carroll could have shot Brandon Mebane in the genitals and five new commenters would appear to defend his decision.
by John Morgan on Mar 16, 2010 7:42 PM PDT reply actions 10 recs
There is nothing much to say. It's moronic, but we aren't getting him back.
by John Morgan on Mar 16, 2010 7:49 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
That's the best you're hoping for?
You’re not even hoping we suck so bad that we are 1-15 next year, draft Jake Locker, and win the next 34 Super Bowls?
Well, that makes sense for this team.
He’ll be older and used up by then. We’ll sign him to a $150 million contract.
It's Great to be a Florida Gator!
The Arizona Cardinals' plan for success:
-Lose all talent on team to retirement and free agency.
-Call it a day.
by Wayward Llama on Mar 17, 2010 3:58 AM PDT up reply actions
I dunno, would could get him back after his contract's up with the Eagles is up
And then pay him loads of money righ when he’s hitting his decline.
by B.B.Finnegan on Mar 16, 2010 8:28 PM PDT up reply actions
I think it is more based on hope
Carroll was a hope candidate and people don’t want to give it up yet at least not until he screws the draft or goes 0 – 6.
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 7:45 PM PDT up reply actions
This lessened a lot of my hope I must admit
I could understand the Seneca deal but this one is testing my faith.
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 7:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Hope is earned. Change does not equal improvement.
by John Morgan on Mar 16, 2010 7:50 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
They earned a lot of it by firing Mora
I thought this would put them on the right track…
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 7:51 PM PDT up reply actions
not the trade but the new regime
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 7:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, maybe he'd play better without genitals.
The Queen and Prime Minister know what they’re doing. T the P of the Q/PM. _
by Chirp on Mar 16, 2010 7:47 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Which one is the queen?
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 7:48 PM PDT up reply actions
I assumed Carroll would be the queen...
Due to his hair, and being older than Schneider. Also, Schneider looks more like Tony Blair…not the current PM, but a past one. But This is open to interpretation.
Carroll is wrinklywith white hair I guess that makes him the queen
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 7:54 PM PDT up reply actions
I assumed Schneider was the queen and Carroll was the PM.
It was a reflection of how the power went: the Queen is more a figurehead then anything else while the PM runs everything.
Now with more lemon bars!
I took it as the opposite.
The monarch versus the figurehead that makes it appear the monarch actually considers the will of the people — or, in our case, rationale.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 11:03 PM PDT up reply actions
I think the queen is the figurehead. So... Schneider?
Perhaps I’m reading too much into this.
My $0.02
Since (to me) this trade makes very little sense, I’m going to speculate on why I think this trade was made. Someone posted earlier that PC would move Curry to elephant. Curry is a superior athlete to Tapp and Hawthorne may be a superior LB to Curry. This places more talent on the field. Due to holes on the team, they felt it was better to monetize any depth position (DE) to fill in holes. I’ve read that a 4th rounder this year would be equal to a 3rd rounder any other year.
A third rounder and a pass rush specialist is good return for what Tapp is. It is not good return for what Tapp could become. When a team as consistently good and smart as the Eagles wants to trade with you, you had better be damn sure you are on the right side of the trade.
I read the news a couple hours ago.. I've calmed down.
But I still cannot fathom this… Whose balls do I gotta kick in the Fo to make them understand that rebuilding a team means you ADD talent to cover your holes, not create new ones?
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
This is almost as bad as signing Colin Cole, if not worse.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
Actually, it is.
Because Seattle willingly gave up talent.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
That's exactly what this move reminds me of!
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
by Carl Shinyama on Mar 16, 2010 8:11 PM PDT up reply actions
TRUST THE PROCESS
—PattyB
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
I'm confused. Did you think Ruskell was a figure head?
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
I don't think that's Allen.
More like Holmgren’s ego demanding full power.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
I thought that Holmgren left Green Bay and came here
because Allen was promising the whole package. Why would Allen do that again with Carroll?
yeah, but I still think Allen wouldn't make the same business mistake twice.
Just a hunch however. Maybe I am in denial that Schneider is a puppet, but I still think Allen wouldn’t give everything to the coach yet again. Allen is too smart for that shit.
John Schneider is like the Browns GM. He's not running the show. Holmgren is.
Schneider isn’t running this show. Carroll is.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
Schneider is a puppet. Nobody can convince me otherwise.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Right, two-three word descriptors, depending on point of view.,
“What. The. F**k.
&
Trust the process.
So has anyone found Robert yet? I'm worried about him.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
I hear the Bolton Wanderers are pretty good
they are in rebuilding mode though and have made a few trades that…
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 8:01 PM PDT up reply actions
I mean, they're safe from the relegation zone.
But I think they should trade their best players for some 32 year old vets to get that “win now” mentality of a top 10 finish.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
They may even make it to the European version of the NIT
the UEFA cup.
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 8:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Bolton won't plan to focus on scoring.
100% of the transfers and loans will be spent on defending (as they get rid of their best defenders).
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
Arsenal. Just to spite you.
Because today’s news has pained me and I need to lash out.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 11:06 PM PDT up reply actions
And because the racist nationalism
behind the enormous green n gold Anti-Glazer movement disgusts me.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Fuck that. Liverpool.
I dislike Man U less now because they lost Greasy Cristiano and gained Michael Owen, but the Gerrard/Torres combo is the best in the all of soccer. You’ll never walk alone.
by SeaTownBlueDevil on Mar 17, 2010 8:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Owen is a stiff. He's the Deion Branch of English football.
Made of glass.
But Rooney > Gerrard/Torres.
We love you Shrek!
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
I just love Owen because he was the Liverpool star when I first started liking soccer.
I’ll be realistic and say Rooney>Torres, but ManU has no complement that’s even close to the level of Gerrard.
by SeaTownBlueDevil on Mar 17, 2010 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions
I'll be adopting the Texans, myself.
We should visit Battle Red Blog more often.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Not the same
but Arena Football starts soon.. and the team based in Spokane Washington won the championship last year..<_<
When you say "interesting,"
… do you mean, “painful?”
I vow to never post a cartoon picture of spurting diarrhea on a credible blog.
/dick joke
I believe Philly will put him in a position to succeed
And he will reward them with success.
If he has less than 10 sacks this year I'll be surprised.
I’d rather have Tapp than sign Peppers give their ages, costs.
To quote someone else: This is horrible!
That doesn't sound interesting at all.
That sounds like a penectomy with a spoon. It’s like watching Weaver be awesome, but worse.
I've always been an outspoken Eagles supporter
I like Andy Reid and Donovan McNabb(mainly cause Philly fans hate him). Maybe now is the time to begin the full transformation.
I see what you are going for.
But that .gif at least gives you hope for something good happening (and then mercilessly dashes it). This trade offered no such hope.
Now with more lemon bars!
Maybe it's just the fatigue or that a few hours ago I was thinking this is one of the best days of my life
but I keep thinking: Carroll will fuck this up so bad, at least his run will be short.
My day was terrible.
Then I came home to this and was thoroughly depressed.
So…how bout dem Mariners/Sounders?
Now with more lemon bars!
I'm not exactly optimistic right now but I don't see his run being short at all.
Tons of money, expected rebuild, hands off owner, puppet GM to take the fall first. I think we’re stuck with Carroll for a while.
Being a Blazers fan I've seen a bit of Paul Allen
He is a hands off owner in the sense that he doesn’t know how to run a team but he does know that if his team is consistently losing then something is wrong. Carroll and Co. have about two years to make progress.
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 8:19 PM PDT up reply actions
At the rate he's fucking things up I can see his grace period shortening by the minute
Which is good.
The problem is that one would have to be attentive to notice this as a bad move.
Unless the team looks absolutely awful on the field and looks worse for Carroll having laid hands on it, you’d think he’d get some time to “turn things around”.
As bad as they were the last two years it's going to be hard to look worse.
And Carroll is “rebuilding” so they’re supposed to be bad, right?
It's hard to see the team being better than last years at this point
Maybe if he doesn’t show clear steps forward they’ll come to their senses…..hopefully…
What I can see happening in the relatively near future is a similar fate that befell Holmgren.
Carroll is stripped of any front office power he might have and that’s either turned over to Schneider or the team goes and finds a competent GM.
I take solace in the fact that Paul Allen owns this team.
Now if he kicks off due to the cancer, all bets are off.
Seriously.
I worry about that myself.
It's Great to be a Florida Gator!
The Arizona Cardinals' plan for success:
-Lose all talent on team to retirement and free agency.
-Call it a day.
by Wayward Llama on Mar 17, 2010 4:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Him dying.
He’s a good owner.
It's Great to be a Florida Gator!
The Arizona Cardinals' plan for success:
-Lose all talent on team to retirement and free agency.
-Call it a day.
by Wayward Llama on Mar 17, 2010 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions
I think a Honda for a Kia or Dae Woo with an extended warranty is more appropriate
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 8:16 PM PDT up reply actions
GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN
GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN GOD DAMN
by Scruffy Lefty on Mar 16, 2010 8:16 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Can Nick Reed play that position?
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 8:20 PM PDT up reply actions
What sort of ridiculous question is that?
OF COURSE Nick Reed can play runningack (or runngack for short.)
And Jesus.
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
by Carl Shinyama on Mar 16, 2010 8:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Lets draft JPP so we can develop him and ship him off as soon as he's ready to be really productive.
Great idea.
We certainly would not want to field a player entering his prime when he could be doing that for another team in the NFC.
Nope. It comes with dejection, failure, bewilderment, and anger.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
So I'm back to where I was when we hired Carroll.
Tod Leiweke is next.
Nick Reed is stil on the team?
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
by Carl Shinyama on Mar 16, 2010 8:24 PM PDT up reply actions
lol When I was little, I used to prounouce Jeopardy as Gee-Oh-pardy
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
by Carl Shinyama on Mar 16, 2010 8:26 PM PDT up reply actions
When I was little, the Seahawks were owned by Ken Behring.
And I think coached by Tom Flores. Okay, I wasn’t little, I was about 19, but I can’t help but think about those days right now.
The silver lining is
We can draft a developmental pick pass-rushing DE in the fourth round now.
by John Edwards on Mar 16, 2010 8:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually
God would probably tear that shit up. Now that Walter is retiring, that is…
(ducks under a lightning rod)
by John Edwards on Mar 16, 2010 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Shit, we can get those in the seventh
One word: Nick Reed
by B.B.Finnegan on Mar 16, 2010 8:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Nick Reed will be traded to St. Louis, where he and Suh will tear everyone up.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
Suh's got a great sense of style.
He’s so dreamy.
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
by Carl Shinyama on Mar 16, 2010 8:27 PM PDT up reply actions
We will be in the Locker sweepstakes!
Assuming they don’t piss away our first round next year
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 8:24 PM PDT up reply actions
It's amazing.
The Seahawks are mirroring Bad Mariners in every way shape and form. We’ve even got the heavy-handed HowChuck dynamic.
I was excited by it
that is why I becoming so bitter about this
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 8:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Anyone have a spare Tomahawk missile.
I need to launch one up near Lake Washington.
Wait – you’re going the wrong way!!
Amazingly, that's the official slogan of the Pete Carroll era and it's only been 2 months.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
by SSreporters on Mar 16, 2010 8:33 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
at least the stupid moves were "safe"
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 8:35 PM PDT up reply actions
He is a good guitar player
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 8:40 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm really not.
But at 6’2", 165 I’m pretty sure I can get blocked and washed-out of plays just like Terrill does (albeit w/ a few more broken bones). Apparently, that is helping the team.
Ok, I'm done being reactionary.
Let’s see how this plays out all the way through the draft.
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
by Carl Shinyama on Mar 16, 2010 8:36 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Yeah I suppose it isn't all bad
I am working on my Master’s thesis next fall so a shitty Seahawks team won’t keep me glued to the t.v.
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 8:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Here's some hope for you:
Ruskell made some bad moves in free agency, but he was still good at drafting. They are two seperate skill sets. Let’s pray real hard that he doesn’t suck at drafting.
Now with more lemon bars!
If he is then he won't be here long
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 8:41 PM PDT up reply actions
If I see the words Seahawks + Taylor + Mays in a sentence during the draft and it isn't
“Seahawks have absolutely no interest in drafting Taylor Mays and instead opt for _________”, I will just pretend the Seahawks don’t exist like I do with the Sonics.
technically they don't exist
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 8:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Was in reference to the Sonics
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 8:46 PM PDT up reply actions
right
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 8:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, the Seattle Sonics.
What a team this year. Playoffs!
did you all become Blazer fans?
Considering the injuries…
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Nope, it didn't work for me. I tried to adopt them and it didn't take.
I love the Seattle Sonics. So instead I’ve just abandoned caring about the NBA. I hope David Stern is happy.
by abender20 on Mar 16, 2010 8:51 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Snooker
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 8:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Hell, college basketball is dead to me.
I just don’t care about the sport anymore.
Did the Huskies move to OKC too?
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 8:56 PM PDT up reply actions
They killed off most of my basketball fandom
but UW’s success is slowwwwly bringing it back. I used to watch every Sonics and Husky game. Now I occasionally watch a Husky game. I guess I’ll probably watch their game vs Marquette.
Now with more lemon bars!
I don't hold a big attachment to the Sonics
I mean, I’ve never really had an NBA team I’ve rooted for as a diehard. But it’s the other bullcrap in the NBA that turns me off to the point where I pretty much only watch the playoffs.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
My love for the Sonics was absolute.
Them leaving was the end of basketball for me.
If it was absolute
You’d still be a fan. The magic carpet will once again be ridden in Seattle, mark my words.
NBA is pretty hard to watch anyway, especially in comparison to NCAA.
Take away my only investment in the sport and that’s it.
He didn't say his love was for the NBA...
When the Seattle Sonics exist I will still love them (again).
Same here.
I wasn’t ever a big fan of basketball, but I would root for the Sonics and keep up with their news. Anymore, I simply ignore basketball totally.
It's Great to be a Florida Gator!
The Arizona Cardinals' plan for success:
-Lose all talent on team to retirement and free agency.
-Call it a day.
by Wayward Llama on Mar 17, 2010 4:04 AM PDT up reply actions
The only good thing about the Bavasi years is that it forced me to look into non mainstream sports analysis
to figure out why the fuck every decision he made backfired so horribly (except Beltre xoxo). Bavasi is the reason I’m a smarter sports fan.
That said, I don’t need Pete Carroll to do the same thing for me. I’ve already gone down that path once.
So, Bill Bavasi is the reason I discovered USSM, sabermetrics, then LL
and subsequently Field Gulls.
There’s a series of posts I could write about that very subject, but feh.
It wasn't anything concrete for me.
Just a puzzlement why Seattle sucked so horribly when everyone said we should have been good. Then someone mentioned LL, and I checked it out. And from there I found out about USSMariner and Field Gulls. Thank god.
Now with more lemon bars!
I don't know that I can go through that again with the same unflexing emotional attachment
2008 was traumatizing and I don’t think that I can relive it.
The sad thing is I think I can deal with it better now than I did in 2008.
Looking into the deeper elements and context of sports has made me a more…I dunno, objective fan. I traded a fair deal of passion for understanding, and though I don’t regret that one bit I think that makes it harder for me to suffer as much.
I think the opposite happened for me.
During the Bavasi years, I sort of just emotionally detached myself from the Mariners and latched onto the Seahawks more.
Now that the two have swapped fortunes, I feel like I get punched in the gut every time Carroll does something stupid.
I wonder what is next?
…giving
DelhommeHasselbeck a five-year, $42.5 million extension that keeps the 34-year-old under contract through the 2014 season?
Nope
signing Matt McCoy, a former second round project pick out of San Diego State.
Instead I am eating my guts out because some incompetent stranger buys into his own fucking hype.
by John Morgan on Mar 16, 2010 8:51 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
If Carroll actually wanted to "win now" it certainly didn't involve the games themselves.
This is just an insane trade.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
by SSreporters on Mar 16, 2010 8:52 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I know I need to find another sport to spread my emotional attatchment to.
Maybe I’ll pick up hockey and PL soccer so I’ve got something else to tide me over during this shitstorm.
I'm really counting on the Sounders and Mariners.
And that looming strike is dashing my hopes.
Now with more lemon bars!
I'm a TFC fan.
I am used to management randomly sending fan favorites to retirement/another team.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
National Rugby League is starting up
Pretty good stuff
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions
I was recently reading about the historicity of Muhammad
Sports might be too much “sinking sand” altogether, if I decide to jump from football, I need a more solid landing spot, and the interest probably would have to be something altogether different.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 11:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Um...
The sweet wouldn’t taste as sweet if your taste buds hadn’t been burned away by five years stomach acid and bile?
I may be getting that saying wrong.
by John Edwards on Mar 16, 2010 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Painted up and on meth?
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I will never forget
years ago, when I first got into the draft, about the only mock draft on the innernetz was Kipers, but I needed more info to consume, so I stumbled upon football.about.com’s forum, which became the biggest subdomain for About by a long shot soonafter. It’s always been a very draft-heavy forum.
So I just got into being more of a fan of football than just watching games. I think it was the Marcus Trufant draft, I dunno exactly when. And all sorts of individual team live draft threads were being posted.
And the Raiders went and picked and up came the Raiders thread. And the title was, “I PUNCHED MYSELF IN THE NUTS!!!”
So, yeah, this is pretty much like being a Raider fan on draft day.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 11:25 PM PDT up reply actions
I reached this same question this evening
I’m not being facetious or exaggerating. Football is the greatest, most costly addiction I’ve had in my life. More devastating than the porn addiction I had up until after a few years of marriage and the misery that stemmed from the betrayal. And my wife hates it just as much. It’s taken tens of thousands of hours of my life.
I just want this team to succeed so bad. I hurts. It literally physically pains me. And I realize how stupid it is. How another man’s actions in something ultimately inconsequential to my life can make such a dramatic difference. I came home an angry, moody, complete dick of a father and husband today. Spanked my son when he didn’t deserve it. Got into a fight with my wife. I am in a serious bad mood. This is wrong. And I am accountable. And so I wonder, should football be allowed to have this kind of control over my life when I cannot control it in the slightest?
I know the answer is no, but that doesn’t mean I’ve been able to walk away from it just yet. Or even completely rationalize walking away.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 11:19 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
at least we aren't the Raiders
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 8:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Pete Carroll is swift
At least with Mora he poked his stick at the monster in September by blaming the kicker and by December he awoke the monster and was soon devoured.
Carroll only needed 2 months to work out a trade that has us pissed.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
So where does this thread rank in most epic Field Gulls meltdowns?
If not #1, it has to be in the top 3 at least.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
The loss to the Giants in 2008 wins hands down.
That was one of the biggest sport-related shitstorms I’ve ever seen.
I think we can do worse.
Just wait until Carroll trades Forsett away and we sign Justin Fargas.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
Like that time I strangled the hooker and the cop asked me if she asking for it.
by John Morgan on Mar 16, 2010 9:01 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
The first loss to the Cards this year was pretty bad too
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 9:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Maybe when I have my wind back, I will compile a list of stupid moves that people defended and why they defended them
It blows my mind that three years ago, Holmgren insisted that Alexander still had it, yet people still resort to the “they must know what they are doing” argument.
Probably because Football is so damn hard to analyze since the variables are so co-dependant.
It lends itself to having an aura of “coaches are magicians who know far more then you do”.
Now with more lemon bars!
My biggest breakthrough was the stunning realization that (as John has so eloquently put it) football is a continuum.
It’s changed the way I look at the entire game. Context matters so much more than it used to.
I feel bad for the Southern University running back. Even if he sucks Stump will ride him into the ground.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
Where in the bloody blue fuck did this authority earn that kind of faith in their decision making abilities?
These are the first decisions they’ve ever made and they’ve been terrible, you can’t make an appeal to authority when they’ve given you no precedent to trust them.
No but I trusted him before this
because he hasn’t fucked anything else up.
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 9:03 PM PDT up reply actions
okay but those were recruiting ethics
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 9:05 PM PDT up reply actions
This thread isn't a meltdown
It’s just the residue of repeated trauma. Like if you had been sexually abused for years, but had a savior arrive with the promise of care and comfort. As a first step towards a stable, healing life your savior of you a glimpse of your future in a looking glass.
But the looking glass was actually a glory hole.
by John Edwards on Mar 16, 2010 9:00 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I wouldn't say Ruskell sexually abused us
More like he wouldn’t leave the toilet seat down, never did the dishes and wouldn’t return your calls.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Now Jack Z., on the other hand?
Not only does he do all those things, he’ll buy you flowers at random, show up at your workplace just to say hi, and is actually willing to watch The Notebook with you.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
God.
Why can’t we have that? Why can’t the Seahawks fucking have someone that’s willing to use every goddamn tool at their disposal to evaluate talent and build a roster?
Where the fuck are the forward thinking people? Who the fuck conducted the goddamn overhyped audit this offseason?
But not Twilight. Jack draws the line at Twlilight.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
by Benne on Mar 16, 2010 9:13 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well apparently, he's been locked out of the VMAC today like a certain other player that the Seahawks traded away today
But that report is from PFT, so take it with a grain of salt.
That said, this much smoke usually means there is a fire nearby.
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
by Carl Shinyama on Mar 16, 2010 9:08 PM PDT up reply actions
at least we can get a 4th round pick
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 9:05 PM PDT up reply actions
I am officially numb.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
So the theme of the day is to abandon your best available talent at a position for nothing in favor of relying completely on your draft picks working out.
And if they fail, well hell, you’re fucked! But who cares because you’re sure to draft so great!
IT'S CALLED REBUILDING YOU JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND IT
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Rec'd for referencing my sig.
As obscure a reference as they come!
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
You think we can pull off a trips deal?
Curry, Tats, and Hill to the Panthers for Dwayne Jarrett.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
I wish they had traded Tapp for Frostee Rucker or something
at least I could understand what they were thinking even if it was stupid. I have no words for this trade.
I'd settle for Brian Bosworth. At least he cared enough about the game to use roids. And be awesome in general.
by SeaTownBlueDevil on Mar 17, 2010 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions
One of the most unfairly criticized
players ever.
It's Great to be a Florida Gator!
The Arizona Cardinals' plan for success:
-Lose all talent on team to retirement and free agency.
-Call it a day.
by Wayward Llama on Mar 17, 2010 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions
That's a name made for rapping.
Any time you can rhyme your own name with muthafucka, you’re in business.
isn't that the singer from Hootie and the Blowfish
he could jam with Craig Terrill
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 9:19 PM PDT up reply actions
You sure we can get that kind of value in this market
I don’t think we should turn down whatever we can get.
7th round pick, that's my final offer!
I won’t go any lower then that!
….
well, ok. I’ll take a 7th from next year…
Now with more lemon bars!
Well I think we need more seasoned vets on this roster
WIN NOW!
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
Remember, once upon a time that one guy that was good was traded for less, so you know.
Better just trade him for nothing, because Kurt Warner was undrafted and the Seahawks need a quarterback.
Matt Hasselbeck is Kurt Warner. He still has it and will have a Warner like turnaround.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
Hell we don't need to seriously address the QB situation!
Take some random kid in the 7th round and call it square! Late round picks produced Brady! And Hasselbeck!
We’re fucking golden people.
I really don't get this move after Carroll pointed him out after the tape analysis
As well as the fact that Tapp does seem to fit Carroll’s scheme, doesn’t he?
I guess the comment was to "up his value."
Hence the 4th rounder. Otherwise, we may have only received a 3rd rounder in compensation. Bigger numbered rounds equal better players, right?
I hope Chris Clemons
Doesn’t pass his physical.
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
What are you saying Jeff Gilooly
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 9:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Carroll
Would cry with relief for not fucking up too badly.
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
by Carl Shinyama on Mar 16, 2010 9:16 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm numb. I have to go to bed.
Good night all.
SEA! PANIC!
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
I'm done with it
I was giving him the benefit of the doubt
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 9:22 PM PDT up reply actions
WE CAN FIELD 11 LINEBACKERS ON DEFENSE!
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
or just Nick Reed
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 9:16 PM PDT up reply actions
I wonder if he is trying to move the team to L.A.?
it’s all part of the plan man – in my best Jeff Bridges voice
At least we aren't the Raiders?
YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENS, CARROLL?
YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENS? THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU FUCK A STRANGER IN THE ASS.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
a nice quote from PFT
Just like Tapp, I don’t think many will protest the Seahawks dealing Sims, or at least I hope people won’t, he was nothing but marginal at best on arguably the worst offensive line in the game.
The Browns are said to be interested, and letting him walk to Mike Holmgren would give the Seahawks one of the highest fourth round picks they could coup for Sims.
At least we aren't the Raiders?
or this one
The Seahawks can of course work out a seperate deal, similar to how they acquired Chris Clemons and a fourth rounder instead of his tender price which was a second round pick.
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 9:34 PM PDT up reply actions
COULD YOU POSSIBLY GO ABOUT REBUILDING WORSE THAN THIS?
I PROPOSE THAT YOU CANNOT
by OlSalty on Mar 16, 2010 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Al Davis could
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions
We could be signing old players to big fat contracts.
We’ve managed to not do that. We traded one young, potentially good DE. That’s all that’s happened so far.
See, when Jack Zduriencik chucked the rebuillding book he did so by targeting good players.
That seems the be the part Carroll is missing.
Salt in the wound?
Bills Sign Dwan Edwards
Aaron Wilson reports that the Bills have added defensive end Dwan Edwards on a four-year, $18 million deal.
Why is everyone automatically assume we resign this guy in a year?
Tapp was only guaranteed to be here for one more season. If he was going to break out, like so many proclaim, he would’ve cost a bundle, and we surely would have had competition and may have lost him. Of course, he may not break out this year, or ever. Then we got a 4th round pick and a potentially decent DE for a another potentially decent DE.
All in all, I’m not losing sleep over this.
We're not assuming that.
We’re bent out of shape because we sold him for absolutely nothing and we should have gotten more from him.
Maybe it's just me.
But I feel like a 4th round pick is much better than 90% of the people here are making it out to be — especially in a very deep draft class this year. Do we know Clemons sucks already? I don’t know anything about him. But guess what, Eagles fans know nothing about Darryl Tapp either. Only thing I know is that Clemons is what 3 or 4 years older? I’ll hold judgment until I know the relative talent level, and see what we get what this pick.
It doesn't matter who we select with that pick.
A 4th round pick and a scrub for Darryl Tapp is well below his real value.
What's his real value?
Just wondering what you think.
I just find it hard to believe
that a secound round pick is Darryl Tapp’s value, when there were so many of us that argued for a 2nd round pick + change for Brandon Marshall. A team could theoretically give up a late first round pick for one of the top WRs in the league, and Darryl Tapp, a backup defensive end on one of the worst defenses in the league, is worth a 2nd rounder?
It probably also depends on how you define value — what WE value him as or what the market values Tapp as.
Darryl Tapp was good and young an still had the chance to re-sign long term.
I’m not letting him go for less than he’s worth, and that’s a second round pick. If no one is willing to offer that, than I don’t deal him because he’s worth more to me than a 4th and a scrub.
At worst you carry him into the regular season and deal him for something more
when another team realizes they need line help. Teams that need specific improvement in those situations may give up more.
Don’t sell just because you’ve put a player on the market. You can pull him right off if you don’t get an offer that matches what you’re looking for.
Which is a half sack more than our boy in 1 less game.
Not much of a difference, and of course, stats don’t tell the whole story blahblahblah. Clemons, has played 4 1/2 seasons worth of games and has 20 sacks. Tapp has played in 4 seasons worth of games and has 18. Yes, Tapp is better — that’s why we got a draft pick.
I'm more upset we sold him. Period.
It must be what Seigel and Shuster felt after they sold the rights to Superman for $170.
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
by Carl Shinyama on Mar 16, 2010 9:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Wow comparing Tapp to Clemons as far as talent is just completely ridiculous
And a 4th round pick is pretty crappy. Even if he didn’t break out he’s worth more than this.
How?
If he never breaks out, how is he worth more than a 4th round pick AND another player? If he breaks out, yeah — we almost definitely lost on this trade.
4th round picks arn't worth much.
And by arn’t worth much, I mean are worth only marginally more then a 7th round pick.
Now with more lemon bars!
Who said late round picks are immensely valuable?
I haven’t seen that.
No.
I don’t think one more year of Tapp’s services + the potential to resign is immensely valuable, and neither is a fourth round pick.
by purplepansy on Mar 16, 2010 10:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Sando, more than likely:
This can be a good deal for Seattle if the Seahawks view Clemons as a player on par with Tapp and better suited for their defense. This is considered a strong draft and picks are precious. The fourth-round choice Seattle received was a pick Philadelphia acquired from the Jets.
Which is utter bullshit.
Clemons on par with Tapp? If the team thinks that then we are in a deeper pile of turds than I thought, however I doubt the team thinks that. I don’t know what they’re thinking.
I thought last year's was considered weak.
IIRC, everyone was saying that this year’s draft was THE draft.
by purplepansy on Mar 16, 2010 10:08 PM PDT up reply actions
They were saying that at this time last year.
But I could be wrong.
by purplepansy on Mar 16, 2010 10:08 PM PDT up reply actions
I recall the same thing being said
about this draft being really strong.
Yes but last year they were saying this year
would be a historic QB draft. McCoy, Tebow, Bradford, Clausen, etc.
Now with more lemon bars!
Funny how everybody's worth dropped except Bradford who was injured most of the year
(and maybe Clausen)
by B.B.Finnegan on Mar 16, 2010 10:21 PM PDT up reply actions
There's a lot of underselling going on
I think you’ll see a run in mid to late second round.
by ColumbiaRob on Mar 16, 2010 10:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Clausen wasn't considered much.
He skyrocketed after the season that he had.
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
by Carl Shinyama on Mar 16, 2010 10:47 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm pretty sure he was in people's minds
He was one of the biggest QB recruits in a few years. Pete Carroll said he’d started watching game film of him when he was in 7th grade.
by SeaTownBlueDevil on Mar 17, 2010 8:56 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, as maybe a later round pick.
Before this year, his production had people thinking that he wasn’t worth a 1st round pick. People were much, much higher on Jevon Snead at this point than they were on Clausen.
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
by Carl Shinyama on Mar 18, 2010 8:56 AM PDT up reply actions
No, it's been a while since a draft has been considered this strong.
Not 2004, not 2003.
However, this draft is considered strong because the first round is so strong. So the late round picks, I don’t think they’re more valuable because of this draft. It doesn’t automatically equate to better talent down through the 7th.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 11:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Great, so not is it a 4th rounder
it’s a LATE 4th rounder.
It's Great to be a Florida Gator!
The Arizona Cardinals' plan for success:
-Lose all talent on team to retirement and free agency.
-Call it a day.
by Wayward Llama on Mar 17, 2010 4:09 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah.
And a defensive end that gets 2.5 sacks a year (never breaking out) isn’t worth anything more than that.
Argh
Once again, sacks are a result of the defense as a whole and the context of the game, not an individual.
This isn't baseball.
Counting stats are more misleading in football than perhaps any other sport.
Hell
counting stats are misleading as hell in Basbeall too. All they tend to say is you played for a really long time.
Now with more lemon bars!
Baseball is not close to comparable to football
Football is much more of a team sport where counting stats rely much more on those around you.
That's my point.
Even in a sport like baseball where you make your own stats (to a much larger degree then any other sport anyway), counting stats tell you extremely little beyond how long your career lasted.
Now with more lemon bars!
WR reception yards?
Depends on your quarterback and the line providing you enough time to run your route and getting a good throw.
Tailback? Depends on how your quarterback is operating the passing game and what kind of blocking you can get.
Defensive back? Depends on your field position given to you by the offense, the pressure coming from the front four.
and so on and so forth. Stats in football? It’s all about context.
Sorry.
I was just attempting to give an example of a player that never broke out.
How about this:
Darryl Tapp never records another sack in his entire NFL career. Thus, he never broke out. That Darryl Tapp is not even worth a 7th rounder, let alone a 4th and a player.
by purplepansy on Mar 16, 2010 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions
That's results based analysis.
Which is a terrible way to analyze moves.
Now with more lemon bars!
by Fear on Mar 16, 2010 10:06 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Google "can of Sprite Ichiro" and click the first link.
Or just find where BrianL posted it above. I’ve been on this thread too long….
I liked Tapp
the issue I have with it is that they creating of more holes in a defense that we didn’t need to create. We need an OT, DT, and QB but now we are done a DE and a Safety.
If Tapp were to breakout we could have franchised him and gotten more than a late 4th round pick. Overall I think this is start of some very bad decision making.
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions
There's a stunning amount of angst in this thread
I guess two terrible seasons and a dearth of good news lately will do it. Add some prolific posters, and it seems that Seahawks nation is melting down! I imagine that in retrospect the Tapp trade will amount to much ado about nothing. My opinion of course.
I equally as annoyed at American Idol for desicrating the Zombiefied corpse of the Rolling Stones
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 16, 2010 9:44 PM PDT up reply actions
We've all laid out numerous reasons why this trade was bad and why this is another damning indication of how the new front office oeprates.
The angst is completely and perfectly justified.
That's fine
Passive aggressive doesn’t sit well with me, sorry.
That wasn't passive aggresive
It was aggresive aggresive, because your opinion doesn’t make sense.
by OlSalty on Mar 16, 2010 9:53 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
You're confusing logic with opinion
One of them should make sense. Honestly, I don’t want to pursue this so I’m just letting it drop.
At this point, I hope you're right.
It’s simply a matter of looking at the trade for what it is:
A young, cheap, talented DE entering his prime for a mostly ineffective backup and a draft pick that most likely will end up busting.
That’s why people are up in arms. It’s not so much what the Hawks received, it’s the thinking (or lack thereof) that went into the decision.
6/14/40. Sweet.
To follow onto that
People have high hopes for Carrol/Schneider and it’s only been a few weeks and moves like these are already having a huge affect on those hopes.
6/14/40. Sweet.
That is not how sample size works.
For instance, I only need a sample of one to prove someone is a murderer.
by John Morgan on Mar 17, 2010 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions
I understand that
I just think the FO either had no intention, or ability to keep him so they acquired what value that could. I’m not commenting on what Tapp could or couldn’t achieve. Because in the end it’s all conjecture.
Here's the problem:
I just think the FO either had no intention, or ability to keep him so they acquired what value that could.
That’s a bad way to run a franchise. You adapt scheme to talent, you don’t adapt talent to scheme. Because there isn’t enough talent in the NFL to try and just pick up random people and plug them in. They will fail. If you get promising talent, you hold onto him. Even if you don’t want him long term (because he doesn’t fit the scheme of the rest of your team), you wait until he has a break out season and then sell. It’s not like he’s even vaguely useless if he’s put in the wrong scheme.
Now with more lemon bars!
And it's not like Tapp was useless with us!
He was good! Disruptive! He was our best DE and comparable with many good to great DEs in the league.
Maybe I'm just not seeing the talent
I’ve watched him since he was a rookie. I’m by no means a talent scout, but it seems he underperformed for a second round draft pick. The last couple years, he had a chance to stand out on a talent deprived team, yet he hasn’t. We got four years out of him. He was either going to break out and cost a boat load next year, or he was going to bust and leave via free agency.
by ColumbiaRob on Mar 16, 2010 10:03 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not going to dig into the FG archives right now
but Darryl Tapp was a standout on this team. He was our best DE and an incredibly disruptive force. If the rest of the defense is a touch better, he racks up the counting stacks that everyone loves and foolishly believes are the be-all end-all of talent evaluation.
I've read the articles
and I’ve seen him make impact plays. I’ve also seem him be terribly inconsistent. He also got plenty of playing time to accumulate better sack totals. I know sacks are an indicator of team defense, but you could also say the same thing about pressures.
by ColumbiaRob on Mar 16, 2010 10:09 PM PDT up reply actions
He hasn't gotten playing time.
He lost time to inferior players because of bad coaching.
He got plenty of playing time
Great players rise to the top. He hasn’t.
by ColumbiaRob on Mar 16, 2010 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions
On coaches desire to win?
On players wanting to win & holding team mates accountable.
by ColumbiaRob on Mar 16, 2010 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions
You assume coaches make the right decisions.
They have made very poor decisions the last several years.
Now with more lemon bars!
I know
the ‘man keeping him down’ arguement just seems week to me.
by ColumbiaRob on Mar 16, 2010 10:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Forgive the spelling
It’s been a long couple of months for me.
by ColumbiaRob on Mar 16, 2010 10:19 PM PDT up reply actions
I take it you agreed with Jim Mora benching Chris Spencer in favor of a scrap heap right guard
letting Craig Terrill go out and get abused, allowing Patrick Kerney to take way more snaps than he deserved etc…
No, no, yes
Although in the case of Terrill, I don’t think we had much in the way of an alternative.
by ColumbiaRob on Mar 16, 2010 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Hey, if we're giving the staff the benefit of the doubt on Tapp
they deserve it on Spencer and Terrill as well.
That's different
I’m not saying I wouldn’t mind seeing Tapp in a Seahawk uniform. I’m just disagreeing on his value. If we could land good value for
Spencer, I’d be all for it. Though I’m higher on him than most, I think.
by ColumbiaRob on Mar 16, 2010 10:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Mora blasted Spencer despite the fact he was perhaps the best lineman on the field
He did the exact same thing with Darryl Tapp.
I remember
Castgate. He never chastised Tapp that I can remember.
by ColumbiaRob on Mar 16, 2010 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Because I'm not devaluing
I’m simply saying I think we got decent value for TApp. Spencer, Terrill or Kerney have nothing to do with it.
by ColumbiaRob on Mar 16, 2010 10:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Might as well have given some snaps to Red Bryant.
Give him a larger platter to show what he can do.
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
by Carl Shinyama on Mar 16, 2010 10:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Certainly not Bennett.
It's Great to be a Florida Gator!
The Arizona Cardinals' plan for success:
-Lose all talent on team to retirement and free agency.
-Call it a day.
by Wayward Llama on Mar 17, 2010 4:11 AM PDT up reply actions
2 years ago provides a perfect example.
Lo-Jack was given the starting DE job for the first 4 or 5 games. Why? Because he was the shiny new DE drafted in the 1st round. There’s basically no other reason, he hadn’t shown anything interesting in preseason. But the coaches put him in. How’d that work out? Poorly. Tapp meanwhile kicked ass while he was subbing in (as usual) and eventually Holmgren was forced to give him full starting duties. Next year, Mora takes over and makes the same mistake. Except Mora wasn’t smart enough to recognize his mistake. He just kept leaving Lo-Jack in as starter. Tapp was still disruptive as hell, hitting the QB constantly despite being double teamed/chipped constantly by opposing defenses because there was no one else semi competent on our DL (except Mebane).
Just because he didn’t put up sacks doesn’t mean he wasn’t a force when given the chance.
Now with more lemon bars!
Likewise?
I believe we both work of similar knowledge. My opinion is as valid as any.
by ColumbiaRob on Mar 16, 2010 10:17 PM PDT up reply actions
No, it's not.
My opinion is based on the scouting and tape breakdown John has done as well as some eye-opening work Football Outsiders has put together. Your opinion is based on your subjective memories of past games.
It's freely available info
I can read as well.
by ColumbiaRob on Mar 16, 2010 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Is he making this arguement?
I don’t know what your point is. You’re more informed because you read him more, or you agree with him more?
by ColumbiaRob on Mar 16, 2010 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Differing opinions don't carry weight?
I’d hope most people would welcome opposing views, if only to keep us honest. I’ll say again, that it appears the league did not value Tapp as well as many here.
by ColumbiaRob on Mar 16, 2010 10:36 PM PDT up reply actions
I do welcome opposing views, but I expect those views to be backed by more than subjective memories.
If they’re not, I don’t take them seriously.
This makes no sense
Sorry. You’re memory is every bit as subjective as mine. Your interpretation is subjective, as is mine.
It’s late for me, and I don’t think we’re getting anywhere with this. I appreciate the conversation, but the superior tone I could do without.
by ColumbiaRob on Mar 16, 2010 10:41 PM PDT up reply actions
He's not going off of memory.
He’s going off of people’s detailed tape analysis. People that spent hours combing over game tape to figure out just how good Tapp is (and other players).
Now with more lemon bars!
I've read the same stuff
I agree with most of what John writes, but not all of it. I have a brain as well, and I can disagree. It’s all good though.
by ColumbiaRob on Mar 16, 2010 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions
I worked as a scientist
I could read studies and disagree with conclusions. They put more time into it, but their methodology might be in error. Biases. Many different things. As I said, I have a brain. I agree with much of what John says, but I think he’d be the first to admit he could be wrong (maybe not on this).
by ColumbiaRob on Mar 16, 2010 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions
The problem is your disagreement is massive.
The value you’ve placed on Tapp and the value he and FO has on Tapp has a huge gap.
His value is largely in potential
We have no way of knowing if it comes to fruition.
by ColumbiaRob on Mar 16, 2010 10:52 PM PDT up reply actions
I really have to hit the hay this time..
Good arguing with you!
by ColumbiaRob on Mar 16, 2010 10:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Potential is valuable.
At the very least, Darryl Tapp could be described as average last season. Contrary to popular opinion, average is also valuable and worth more than a 4th.
I gotta help out Columbia Rob here
He’s might be trying to say there is a little too much Morgan homerism here. We can also see things with our own eyes that are valid observations. Perhaps we don’t freeze frame every play of every game, but over the course of a season, we can still get the measure of a man and make meaningful comments about said player. Speaking as a fellow scientist, of course.
Thanks :)
But I’ve moved onto health care now!
by ColumbiaRob on Mar 16, 2010 10:54 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm presented with two arguments concerning Tapp's value
and given a evidence to support both cases. I have to go with the side that presents the stronger case, and that’s the case John, FO, and others have put together supporting Tapp’s value.
I'm not relying on my memory.
I’m relying on detailed tape breakdown and analysis done by some of the best football eyes out there.
Just for my own enjoyment...
…please tell me how this differs from an appeal to authority.
Not being a dick, I honestly don’t get it.
I'm not blindly trusting them
They presented evidence which supports their claims and which appears to be sound both subjectively and objectively.
An appeal to authority would be me saying that Tapp isn’t valuable because the coaches didn’t play him much.
Appeals to authority
generally involve saying “these guys know more then me because it’s their job.” It involves more arcane hand-waving, and 0 evidence of support. The guys BrianL is talking about showed their evidence and how they came to their conclusions.
Now with more lemon bars!
He had 5 starts last year.
He had 11 the year before (after he basically forced his way back into starter status over Lawrence Jackson). That’s not a lot of opportunities. And why did he not get those starts? Because of Lawrence Jackson being a 1st round pick two years ago, and last year because Mora was a bad coach.
Now with more lemon bars!
Starting isn't the only playing time
He was used for breathers, situational pass rush.
by ColumbiaRob on Mar 16, 2010 10:15 PM PDT up reply actions
He wasn't getting the majority of the snaps even though he was the team's best DE>.
It’s not his fault that his coaches were idiots.
Reverse appeal to authority?
I’m sorry, we’ll just have to agree to disagree on his worth.
by ColumbiaRob on Mar 16, 2010 10:18 PM PDT up reply actions
What, inherent distrust of authority?
No. Jim Mora did nothing to prove he was capable of running an NFL team. That was earned distrust.
He certainly isn't an idiot
I’m first in line for the Mora lynching, but you can’t blame everything on them.
by ColumbiaRob on Mar 16, 2010 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to work under a guy like Mora
I’ve had bosses like that—spineless silver-spooned children who, once things go south, go berserk and try to assert their authority at the last minute, and people have even less respect for them.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
I agree
I spent 6 years in the military. It’s never sat well with me.
by ColumbiaRob on Mar 16, 2010 10:27 PM PDT up reply actions
That too.
The same type of boss I described, he would suddenly go “new sheriff in town” and fire random people for bullshit reasons. It’s the inconsistency in leadership I most despise. I don’t care if your’e a hardass, just be a hardass all the time.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
my current boss is like that
and I pray to a god I don’t believe in that he gets hit by a bus everyday.
by Hancock.Brett on Mar 16, 2010 10:31 PM PDT up reply actions
You and I saw different things.
Since he broke out in his second year, he’s been a dynamite of effectiveness when allowed to play. He was benched for Jackson for very thin reasons (Jackson was drafted in the 1st round, that’s about the only reason) and Tapp was still able to overcome the favoritism and earn back his starting spot eventually. He’s a player just entering the prime of his career, when given playing time he’s been flying all over the field, and we shipped him off for a draft pick that isn’t worth jack squat.
Now with more lemon bars!
I can respect your opinion.
You may be right. The nuclear eruption is an indictment of process, however. What is the dearth of good news?
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 11:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Sweet Jesus.
What did I start?
That’s right, I’m claiming this.
6/14/40. Sweet.
by Nick Andron on Mar 16, 2010 9:44 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Print it and put in on your refrigerator
You might need to buy a second or third for overflow.
You know, there was another trade made by a Seattle team recently....
At face value, it was completely ass-backwards, yet some people stood up to defend it in the name of “maybe they have a bigger plan in mind” or “that guy we gave up isn’t as good as you think it is.”
The trade in question?
Rafael Soriano for Horacio Ramirez.
I do not like the direction our Seahawks are heading.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Why do we keep comparing baseball to football?
Is this why everyone is so pissed off? Because the Mariners imploded? The Seahawks are already there, and trading Tapp won’t change that.
by ColumbiaRob on Mar 16, 2010 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm well aware of what destroyed the Mariners
Richie Sexson (sp?) haunts my nightmares. Football is so much more complicated, I find it hard to draw parallels.
by ColumbiaRob on Mar 16, 2010 10:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Young talent jettisoned at the expense of veteranocity or gut feelings.
No clearly defined path of action. Nothing resembling good talent evaluation.
There are parallels there.
Didn't the Mariners already suck before the trade, too?
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
by Carl Shinyama on Mar 16, 2010 10:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Correct!
But they had a flukey record in 2007 in which they outperformed what their run differential would have suggested their record should have been. Instead of looking at the true talent level on the team, they based their projections on that flawed win total.
I feel like that's what is going to happen this year too.
I just look at that lineup and don’t see anyone outside of Ichiro that scares me. Pitching should still be great.
by SeaTownBlueDevil on Mar 17, 2010 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions
The offense this year is better than the offense the team had last year.
The team this year is better than the team last year, and add to that the Angels got dramatically worse. The Mariners are probably slight favorites to win the AL West.
In some ways they were worse.
Their runs scored was flukey low. If it bounces back to expected levels, and their offense improves like it should from their additions, it could be on the low side of mediocre this year.
Now with more lemon bars!
I still don't know.
They got unexpectedly high results from guys like Russell Branyan with no one to replace that. I’d put Texas as slight favorites over the Ms and the Angels, unless the progress they made with their pitching was a fluke last year.
by SeaTownBlueDevil on Mar 17, 2010 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't have time to dredge up all the analysis LL and USSM has done
but this team is better. Don’t get caught up in the lack of power. The offense is better than it was last season, the pitching is better than it was last season, and the defense is about on par with where it was last season.
This could be one of the best threads I've read in terms of volume and discussion.
Everyone has their reasons for loving (a few) or hating (a majority) the moves of the past couple of days. For me, I will put my faith in the men that have spent their life in football and the past couple of months pouring over endless hours of tape evaluating the current roster as well as the rest of the league. They will mold this team into what they feel will be a winner, at the cost of losing some popular players along the way. The main point is that we are a team that has won a total of 9 games in two seasons. I am all for change because what we were doing the past couple years has not worked.
To gain faith and respect, you must first earn it.
In the sports realm, that means making personnel moves that make sense, and selling the fanbase on why your philosophy works. Carroll/Schnedier have done neither so far.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Don't.
Don’t even.
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
by Carl Shinyama on Mar 16, 2010 11:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Al Davis has spent his life in football. Bill Bavasi has spent his life in baseball. Donald Sterling has been running the Clippers forever.
by abender20 on Mar 16, 2010 10:13 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Last time I checked, those guys aren't leading our team...
I’m sure Jimmy Johnson pissed off a few of the Cowboy faithful before leading his team to 2 superbowls. I just want to wait until the draft before we start to call for Carrol and Shneider’s jobs.
by SeahawkSammy on Mar 16, 2010 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions
The point is incompetent people run these organizations, and there are many of these fools out there.
You can’t blindly give your trust to someone just because he’s been a part of the Old Boy’s network for years.
He was successful in college and wildly so.
But it’s a different game. Sort of like how Michael Jordan was the best player to ever set foot on a basketball court but is an awful GM.
Basketball is different - very different
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 17, 2010 6:52 AM PDT up reply actions
I grew up in Dallas - he did
his first two years everyone was calling for his head when they went 1-15 and 7-9, then they got a wild card berth and then went 14-2 and 13-3. His team that he set up was successful for 3 years after he left.
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 17, 2010 6:51 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm not going to give the benefit of the doubt to a regime that has done nothing to earn my trust.
They’ve done precious little to make me think they have a grasp on modern successful talent evaluation. The vast majority of their decisions have ranged from questionable to downright horrifying.
This is not a good path. This is a path that leads to years of spinning your wheels in the mud, people getting fired, and having to start all over with valuable time and talent lost.
The "appeal to authority" fallacy will never cease to madden me.
Jack Z. has earned my faith and respect, not only because he’s made a lot of great moves, but because he went out of his way to tell us what he believes in, and why the process he believes in works.
All I’ve heard from Carroll/Schneider are meaningless platitudes about “collaboration” and “compromise” and “doing the right thing.”
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Bingo.
Jack Z has made smart moves that we can see are backed up by countless evidence. Franklin Gutierrez? Great move, and the UZR numbers completely agreed that it was a brilliant pickup.
And let me say
Jack Z was the candidate I trusted the least out of the pool. He didn’t win me over until he gave me proof that he knew what the fuck he was doing.
I think we all felt the same way.
I was skeptical of his hire, and assumed that HowChuck went for yet another “old white guy behind the times.” Holy shit was I wrong.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Boy am I ever glad to admit my gut instinct on him was wrong.
Now let me be truthful here, I gave Pete Carroll way more leeway than I should have. I was foolishly expecting him to make a good splash, but my opinion has completely soured on him in the last month. He has had the reverse Zduriencik effect on me.
Same here.
I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt, wanted to believe he learned from his mistakes at the NFL level, wanted to believe that the Hawks would hire a strong-armed GM who would put him in his place and make him focus on the coaching side. So much for my optimism.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
I was the exact opposite.
I was pretty sure we were screwed. Then nothing happened and I let him have a little leeway, waiting for something to figure out why kind of group we were going to have. Now I have some information to go off of. And it makes me sad.
Now with more lemon bars!
Some things happened right away: hiring progressive baseball minds and building a modern stats department
That kind of approach isn’t yet evident with Carroll and Co.
by lemonverbena on Mar 16, 2010 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions
A firm belief in their ability to pick the right players
and have a perfect draft full of winners at every position. Because at this rate, that’s what it’s going to take to get us back into contention.
Now with more lemon bars!
Whoops. Attributed your comment to Jack Z.
I’ve had few expectations of Carroll, et al and just want to see what the finished ‘10 product looks like. What I do know is the franchise needed new direction. We’ll have a much better idea after the draft.
by lemonverbena on Mar 16, 2010 10:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Agreed.
I will reserve final judgement on next season until the draft and free agency are done. But I sure as hell don’t like the way things are headed.
Now with more lemon bars!
Something dramatic has to happen to change the course this franchise has taken
and frankly I don’t think Carroll can pull it off.
I don't really either.
I think he’s bringing way too much of his College experiences to the NFL game, and thinks he can coach up anyone he drafts (and will draft really well to boot) which is..wrong. It’s a mistake a lot of college coaches make when they come to the NFL and it’s one I worry he’s going to make. But I won’t declare our team screwed until I see our draft first.
Now with more lemon bars!
God.
I’m actually a marginal supporter of Tebow. For the right price, he makes sense as a developmental QB. His athletic ability is amazing, if you can get him to learn the trade he could be a great QB. 2-3 years down the line (maybe more). But he’s got to be a bargain to take that risk, because his bust potential is epic.
Now with more lemon bars!
If he falls far enough in the 2nd round
or even into the third round I’d take him. Maybe with an early to mid 2nd rounder if my team was already in a decent spot at QB and could afford to let him develop and could afford the time lost if he busted.
Now with more lemon bars!
Thanks for the laugh, lemonverbena -- I can use one after this Tapp trade
Actually, I am warming to drafting Tebow in the 2nd or lower as well. Which is odd, as I kind of despised him in college (mostly irrationally as he played for a Florida team), and he certainly could follow a long, proud line of athletic college QB busts.
I just think that there is good enough chance at him finding a way to be a stud (as Fear says, high ceiling!), that it may be worth a gamble. The Hawks can’t go too conservative at this point, as they have some serious talent gaps.
Part of the problem is figuring out
when other teams will take him. It doesn’t matter if he’s a lock to be in the HOF if other teams won’t take him before the 5th round. And it works in reverse. That’s the main reason I say I would do that. If teams get down on him before the draft, maybe I wait longer.
Now with more lemon bars!
Yea
we won’t really know until the day before the draft. And even then Tebow is the kind of high ceiling high risk player that some teams grab early (and sometimes no one grabs and slides 2-3 rounds). His draft stock is just incredibly variable.
Now with more lemon bars!
it's funny
I feel the same way but know somebody is going to reach on him in the 1st. When Carroll was hired as GM I joked that we would have that draft, now it’s seeming more likely.
by Hancock.Brett on Mar 16, 2010 10:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Someone is going to draft him.
He’s too physically talented to let slip.
Tebow at 40 - if at all
I think it depends on what happens with Whitehurst. I’d say Safety, DE, OT.
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 17, 2010 6:55 AM PDT up reply actions
Have the Mariners played a game yet???
by SeahawkSammy on Mar 16, 2010 10:19 PM PDT up reply actions
the Jack Z comparisons are dead on
and I’m afraid that this move and the entire Carroll/Schneider circus hiring is a bad sign of things to come. If this goes bad and we tank another season Allen shouldn’t be afraid to fire Lewieke before he even has a chance to get his things.
Best to wait until we have more evidence on the Seahawks.
The draft is the next big indicator.
Now with more lemon bars!
here is my checkbook sir
let’s make journalistic magic happen
by Hancock.Brett on Mar 16, 2010 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions
This trade is indefensible
1. Statistics predict we are unlikely to get production from a 4th round pick like we have got from Tapp. He is on a trajectory to be far more valuable. Clemons is a role player at best and his ceiling is far lower.
2. The Seahawks are unlikely to be serious playoff contenders, and just got older and worse. This is not how you rebuild.
3. For those saying that Tapp isn’t worth more than a 4th round pick ignore that he is worth more to the Hawks, as he is arguably one of our best DEs. Maybe he isn’t as valuable to other teams, but again, we just got worse at a position where we are not strong.
4. To the argument that we would be losing him in a year anyway, I say that good teams generally find ways to retain their talent.
5. Along with Grant move (assuming it was to save cash), we now have even more holes to fill than we started with at the beginning of the offseason
Rumors are now swirling that we may lose one of our best on the O-line (Sims). If this keeps up, I wouldn’t be all that surprised to see the FO piss away some other young talent (e.g. Pistol, Mebane, or Carlson) as well.
If I were Philly, I would just keep trading with Seattle. We have been oh so good to them. Church Van sends his regards from the Pro Bowl.
Wilson, Bane and Carlson aren't going anywhere
I’d bet my authentic #28 old school jersey on it. Tapp is a headscratcher to be sure, but I don’t share the wailing and rending of garments over the other moves at all.
by lemonverbena on Mar 16, 2010 10:53 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree
I would have included Tapp in that list without any hesitation.
by Hancock.Brett on Mar 16, 2010 10:57 PM PDT up reply actions
I thought Tapp was off-limits, too.
At this point, all bets are off.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Tapp was an RFA, and those situations are much more fluid
by lemonverbena on Mar 16, 2010 11:00 PM PDT up reply actions
We tendered him (valued him) as a 2nd round pick.
We settled for a bum DE and a 4th. That’s not good trading.
Indeed.
A non-retarded FO either would’ve held stubbornly to that 2nd-round comp., or try to sign Tapp long-term. I don’t know what the FO was thinking in this thought process—for that matter, I don’t know what they’re thinking, period. It’s madness all around.
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
It just doesn't make sense.
They give an indication that they believe that Tapp is worth at least a second, sign him to that tender reaffirming that thought, and then deal him for a 4th and a nobody.
I just don’t know what to make of this.
Clearly Tapp was caught joking about USC recruiting violations
shrug — you guys nailed it. It just makes no sense
Also, I inadvertently left Force off my list of core talents that I could see being overlooked or dealt for dubious value. I still have nightmares from seeing him in a Colts uniform the last time the Hawks FO got clever. Granted, Justin isn’t necessarily going to be a Hall of Famer, but as I mentioned earlier, when you are rebuilding a crappy team, it helps to keep your best young players.
Didn't say it was good trading
Just making the point that Tapp’s situation is different from Wilson, Mebane, Carlson
by lemonverbena on Mar 16, 2010 11:10 PM PDT up reply actions
I could have handled a 3rd round pick
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 17, 2010 6:56 AM PDT up reply actions
I agree with much of this.
I’ll add that unless we recoup some of this lost value from the Tapp trade by it being part of another deal in the works and turn it into something else in trade w/ another team I can see no reasonable explanation I could accept in making this deal. If this 4th is part of the Marshall deal in a way that preserves a more valuable pick to us, I could see it. The pick has to be a ‘deal-maker’ of significant proportions.
My problem with this is that it still means we sold low on Tapp.
The result might end up good, but the process was still very bad.
1. Cite those statistics, or don't claim them. That's a huge claim you're making.
2. Not if you consider the age of the 4th rounder they’ll be adding as well.
3. Yes.
4. Yes.
5. Yes.
Sorry to pick on you, there’s a lot of crap flying around in this thread and the statistics thing bugged me. I also think the trade is indefensible.
Can't find stats
but looking at the 4th-rounders from the past decade or so there are a lot more names that I don’t recognize than ones that I do. Yeah, there are some decent players and even some Pro Bowlers (especially from the ’06 draft), but a whole lot of nothing also.
Here's another thing that just came to mind (and really annoys me)
Is the whole “only one good team in Seatle” thing. When the M’s suck (mid-80s), the Hawks are good. When the Hawks suck (mid-90s), the M’s are good. When the M’s suck (mid-00s), the Hawks are good. And now just as the M’s are getting good again, the Hawks start again. WHY CAN’T WE HAVE TWO SEATTLE TEAMS THAT ARE GOOD AT THE SAME TIME?
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Should read "...again, the Hawks start to suck again."
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Zombie Sonics were good in the early/mid 90s.
Sounders are good at the same time the Mariners are getting good.
Now with more lemon bars!
All due respect: they were not the Zombie Sonics. They were the Seattle Motherfucking Supersonics.
Payton, Kemp, Hawk, Schrempf, Stoney Perkins. F-ing badass.
by lemonverbena on Mar 16, 2010 11:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuper SOooooooooooooooooooooooooooniiiiiics!
I remember in the beginning of one of the Finals games, Shawn Kemp was on the screen and he said that. Jacked me up so good, I was ready to watch some Sonics basketball!
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
by Carl Shinyama on Mar 16, 2010 11:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Us Seattle fans get crazy loud for our teams
I believe that during the mid 90s Sonics playoff runs, we were setting records for dB levels at an NBA game. I always remember them showing the dB meter on the broadcasts at least.
by seattle_since_81 on Mar 17, 2010 12:28 AM PDT up reply actions
I need to stop reading this.
It’s like being in a game thread when we’re getting blown out; it’s just making me hate everyone. I was up in Seattle this weekend, and I talked to a lot of Hawks fans there…the vast majority are cognitively challenged.
I fucking hate this franchise.
Sad to say, a lot of Seahawkz fanz r stoopid.
Oh, shit.
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
by Carl Shinyama on Mar 16, 2010 11:23 PM PDT up reply actions
nonsense
ever been to the Seattle Times comments forum? Utter malarkey…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI
Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!
by jubelthebear on Mar 16, 2010 11:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes. Yes, I have.
But if I may be honest, I always thought TNT was worse.. though, apparently, they’ve cleaned it up a bit over there, but I rarely read what they anymore.
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
by Carl Shinyama on Mar 16, 2010 11:32 PM PDT up reply actions
A lot of sports fans are cognitively challenged.
It comes with the territory.
by purplepansy on Mar 16, 2010 11:31 PM PDT up reply actions
so how does everyone feel
about the Matt McCoy signing? Probably a Gus Bradley induced move… I don’t know anything about the kid though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI
Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!
by jubelthebear on Mar 16, 2010 11:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Meh
McCoy = Special teamer to fill spot soon to be vacated by Lance Laury? Big nothingburger
http://blog.seattlepi.com/football/archives/198391.asp
Regarding special teams, I would have expected Owen Schmitt would have had a larger impact by now. He fits the profile (big, fearless, likes hitting), but nada.
well I asked
more or divert everyone’s ire from the Tapp trade so as to avoid everyone here developing hernias or arterial hypertension
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI
Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!
by jubelthebear on Mar 16, 2010 11:59 PM PDT up reply actions
well I asked
*more or less to divert everyone’s ire from the Tapp trade so as to avoid everyone here developing hernias or arterial hypertension (fixed)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI
Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!
by jubelthebear on Mar 16, 2010 11:59 PM PDT up reply actions
It's like having all the berry's in your Berry Berry Kix taken out of your cereal by mommy and daddy
But they feel bad for you, so let you have one berry to go with your cereal.
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
by Carl Shinyama on Mar 16, 2010 11:42 PM PDT up reply actions
I was high on him as a sleeper pick to surprise
when he was drafted. Didn’t follow him after he didn’t make the splash I thought he would with the Eagles. So I don’t know.
by jacobstevens on Mar 16, 2010 11:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, I guess this is why the Seahawks didn't get more for Tapp:
Tapp immediately worked out a contract extension with the Eagles. Thus Philadelphia avoided the process of making a one-year tender to Tapp and then having to give up a second-round pick as compensation, instead agreeing with the Seahawks on a fourth-rounder plus Clemons.
I don’t know who the author was, so I’ll just link: http://blog.seattlepi.com/football/archives/198365.asp
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
But again, we didn't have to trade him.
The contract extension was agreed to before the trade was announced. Despite Tapp claiming his not knowing about it, nobody signs their tender right now. Nobody. He signed his tender to facilitate the trade, because the teams had worked out this agreement.
The Eagles may not have signed him to an offer sheet, for a 2nd. Then we’d still have Tapp. Or they take him anyway and we get a 2nd.
The only reason we didn’t get more is because of the decisions of Q/PM.
by jacobstevens on Mar 17, 2010 12:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Matt Mosley's treatment of this move is worth a disgusted guffaw of a laugh.
Not even dignifying it with a link. The fucker.
What a terrible trade.
I bet Carroll just went to NFL.com and checked his career sacks. “Oh this guy is garbage!”
And by the way, this page is laggy as tits from all of the comments.
75% of people account for 3/4 of the worlds population.
by Pessimistic Optimist on Mar 17, 2010 12:11 AM PDT reply actions
It doesn't lag for me.
But when I close it out and bring it up later, man does it take a while to load up.
Now with more lemon bars!
I'm going to go read LL to see if there is any good meaningful news from Spring Training
Wait, you’re telling me that ST is not meaningful? Well reading “good” news from ST will at least cheer me up from the funk that this decision has put me in.
by seattle_since_81 on Mar 17, 2010 12:33 AM PDT reply actions
Elephant role likely for Clemons...
Clare Farnsworth from Seahawks.com says:
Clemons, 28, has started only three of 68 games the past five seasons, but he is considered a more-explosive pass rusher than Tapp. With the Eagles, Clemons was used as a situational rusher and produced seven sacks the past two seasons from a spot they call "Okie" – similar to the "elephant" role Seahawks coach Pete Carroll learned as an assistant with the San Francisco 49ers and has talked about using in Seattle.
So, Clemons probably an elephant. Supposedly a “more-explosive pass rusher” than Tapp. Whether or not this is in a starting or back-up capacity remains to be seen, but at least I found someone talking about it in a positive light.
Granted, his job is to write positive stuff for the Seahawks official webpage…
He also mentions having an extra 4th rounder
in a deep draft. I think 4th rounders are OK for certain positions. I prefer 3rd rounders. 2nd rounders are even better.
This draft is apparently deceptively deep at tight end
some scouts are saying you can get a starting caliber tight end in the 5th round. So I wouldn’t be surprised if the Seahawks got another tight end.
That's the spirit!
So, we get another starting tight end, and an elephant defensive end. Band-aid in place. At any rate, no reason to go all Tappageddon here. Everybody breathe…breathe…
I wonder who considers him a more explosive pass rusher than Tapp.
With 8 sacks in the Land of Darkness in 2007, he might actually be. If he’s a situational pass rusher, he may be more explosive, if that is quantifiable and means anything. I could see that Tapp’s prowess at pass rushing is not due to any marked explosiveness.
I would still expect that Tapp, despite having less explosiveness in pass rush, is still a better pass rusher. And without question a better defensive end. None of which takes into account how much better he may be over the next 2 years than he has been now.
by jacobstevens on Mar 17, 2010 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions
Not a justification, but I wonder...
It might be worth it to wait to pass final judgment on this deal.
The motivation for the Tapp deal could be picking up the additional 4th to either:
a) seal the deal with SD for Whitehurst (someone mentioned this earlier), or
b) move in the draft to target a specific player—say for example the team is looking to package #6 & #40 to move up to #4, that extra 4th would cushion the blow since we have no 3rd
-
That may not necessarily turn this into a good deal, but it would suggest more willingness to gamble than outright inability to judge football talent—which is what many people are saying. Given age, cost, etc. Clemons is clearly worse than Tapp, but Tapp may be the cost of addressing Ruskell’s failure to plan for the future at QB. In that context, giving up on a young, cheap DE with upside for a shot address a long-term QB problem may be debatable but it’s not indefensible.
It would be more of a “creating two problems to solve one” kind of move. I’m not necessarily a fan of such moves but you’d be hard pressed to find a FO in any sport that’s never done it.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
You really shouldn't wait to evaluate trades until other moves are made.
Look at the trade in a vacuum. It doesn’t matter that the 4th we got might lead to something shiny, what matters is that we undersold on Tapp and could have kept him or dealt him for something shinier.
Why should we just look at trades in a vacuum?
and ignore context. Honest question. Do you have any reading on it? (I could’t find much on Google with a quick search)
Awesome thanks.
I don’t follow baseball, so I would have missed that.
But that article acknowledges context matters, and you need some results to form a conclusion
Bavasi started with some moves that looked good at the time but consistently produced horrible results, so it’s safe to conclude he sucks at player evaluation and you don’t trust him in the future. The Braves made a series of moves that looked horrible at the time but turned out well, so it was safe to conclude they were exploiting an information advantage about the pitching prospects they were shipping out. The A’s used their scouting to consistently win “even swaps”
What I’m getting out of it is that despite my initial hatred of the trade, it’s still too early to tell. We don’t yet know if we’re the Bavasi M’s or the Braves/A’s. Scouting and identifying who fits your organizational philosophy still matter. And Carroll/Schneider’s ability to do that is still a giant unknown.
"I'm tired of chasing after my dreams. I'll just find out where they're going, and catch up later." - Hedberg
Yes, context at the time of the trade, not context after the fact.
What we get with that 4th round pick we acquired does not change the fact that Darryl Tapp is worth more than a 4th round pick.
Whoever is acquired with that pick could turn out to be a hall of famer
but that doesn’t mean the actual trade of Tapp was a smart decision. Using the success matrix I so often link to, we can say that it was a bad process that resulted in a good outcome. That’s “dumb luck” and as a fan with vesting interest in the Seahawks, you shouldn’t ever applaud dumb luck.
Dumb luck trends towards poetic justice in a hurry.
And in a related topic
This trade might end up as a net positive (though I highly doubt it). What you have to be concerned about is the process that led to the trade itself, and that process is frightening.
If more personnel moves are made using said process, the team is heading in a very bad direction.
I understand the process matrix
What I’m saying is that we still don’t have enough information to know where they fall on it just yet.
We’re placing them on the bad process side because we’re convinced Tapp was dealt for the proverbial can of Sprite. I understand that as long as you believe this, there’s no way that you can ever see the move as good process, even if the Sprite is delicious.
Tapp’s value is the variable. But Carroll/Schneider currently have some information advantages – about both the market and the player. There is also the possibility we are guilty of overvaluing Tapp’s potential and that we’re caught in a Nirvana fallacy on what his trade value was.
Basically, we could be wrong – and this is not bad process. It could be that with Wallace & Tapp, the FO identified players that were projected to make minimal contributions this year, and recovered some amount of value when they had the chance. And in turn, they will use the value they received to make marginal improvements to the team as a whole. That, in the macro, can be good process.
IMO, we were spoiled by Jack Z because we saw him hit a grand slam his first at bat. That won instant trust in his abilities. So when he made other less impressive moves (Jack Wilson, the underwhelming return on Clement, the decision to swap better talent in Morrow for the better fit with League) we don’t start freaking out about the process and instead give benefit of the doubt.
Carrol/Schneider didn’t start off with a grand slam. More like bunts and bloop singles. What we may have just seen is their version of the Morrow/League swap. And we don’t know if their Putz deal is still to come.
"I'm tired of chasing after my dreams. I'll just find out where they're going, and catch up later." - Hedberg
Yes, we do have enough information.
Tapp is 25 and has been a talented and disruptive DE. We know that is worth more than a 4th round pick, but the organization dealt him anyways. Dealing Tapp at all costs or undervaluing him is a bad process. The result of this mindset is we only got a 4th and a scrub in return.
That’s poetic justice.
Furthermore, Carroll hasn’t gotten any bunts or bloop singles. He’s done everything from flying out to center to lining into a triple play. Just about every roster move he’s made has varied from questionable to moronic.
I agree that we should have gotten a better deal.
And without that better deal, we didn’t need to make one.
However, I’m not sure that we should be turning a player we just acquired into a “scrub” yet. What is this, TLC circa ‘99? He’s probably doing better than the passenger side of his best friend’s ride.
Clemons is going into his age 29 season.
The Seahawks aren’t going to be competitive for a few seasons, meaning that by the time the team as a whole can be considered decent, Clemons will be anywhere from 31-33.
If I had to wager a guess, Darryl Tapp would be much more useful at that time than Clemons would be, and that’s completely ignoring the fact that Tapp is already the better DE. The correct thing to do was retain Tapp and try to re-sign him. The marginal improvement provided by Clemons and a 4th wasn’t worth one year of Tapp and the potential to ink him to a longer deal.
So, he's a scrub because he's not Darryl Tapp?
And because he’s 29, which is older than 25?
Look, I agreed that we should have gotten a better deal. So it’s not like I haven’t heard your argument 45 or 50 times in this and other threads, and I agree with it.
I am just saying that we don’t have to devalue a human being just to say that another player had more “value.” What does the deal not being a good deal have to do with Clemons being a “scrub?” What is a scrub in your context? Because if being 29 is a scrub, we’ve got a lot of scrubs on our roster, and we might as well just start over.
By itself, 29 doesn't make him a scrub to us.
But the problem is that his contributions don’t matter at all until this team is competitive. Which is a couple years down the line. By the time his contributions matter, he’ll be in washed up from age territory. Tapp wouldn’t have that problem because he’s so much younger. In fact, Tapp would be at the height of his peak.
Now with more lemon bars!
I guess I get that.
I do.
As a fan, I still want my team to have a chance to compete next year. I care more about being a good team for a long time than an OK team next year.
So, he’s a scrub because he won’t be a player in his prime in a few years, when we are assuming we’ll be a better team.
I don't know.
Both? If a lesser deal is made to enable a greater deal, the difference could swing the sum product of the deals into a good series of moves.
I think you have to start with recognition that we got less than we gave up in this trade all by itself, though. About a 65% return (my assessment).
And then recognize that even though the moves may be connected, that doesn’t mean they needed to be. If this deal enables something else, and the net value is in the black and not the red, there is still the possibility that more restraint, patience, more shrewdness and creativity could have prevented poor returns here and still performed good moves elsewhere, so that the comparison could be:
the sum total of moves actually made, which hypothetically would be a negative combined with a larger positive for a net positive;
compared to a smart modest positive with other moves that only are positive, for a greater net positive than scenario A.
Or, you could do nothing but pick good players in the draft. I hope I don’t sound crazy when I try to describe these scenarios. You raise a good question. I don’t think we have to look at trades in a vacuum, but we also shouldn’t only look at the bottom line. Process matters.
by jacobstevens on Mar 17, 2010 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions
The worst thing is....I bet you Carroll will do something even worse than this.
We’re going to cut Griffith and Schmitt to make room for a Kirtman/Havili set.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
Then trade Housh away for a 5th round pick.
Which we’ll use to draft Jevan Snead, our new QB of the future.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
It could be worse
We could be San Diego…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI
Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!
Are you saying that the Chargers are in a worse position than us?
Or is this a poor use of sarcasm?
by DrunkAmerican on Mar 17, 2010 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm sayin
San Diego is a team that historically hasn’t always made the best personnel decisions (even barring LeafGate). Also giving Cromartie to the team who; already has the best shutdown corner in the league, a top 5 defense, and who beat you in the playoffs is IMO not the sign of good personnel decisions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI
Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!
by jubelthebear on Mar 17, 2010 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions
OK, gotcha.
Disagree, because AJ Smith is regarded as one of the top personnel guys in the game, but gotcha.
by jacobstevens on Mar 17, 2010 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions
We couldn't at least have recovered our 3rd round pick?
They have two because of the Deon Butler trade I believe, getting that back would’ve at least made it semi-bearable.
This isn't a slight on you
but I’m really getting tired of this fixation that we don’t have a third round pick this year. Guess what folks, we’ve got something better and far more valuable than that. We’ve got a second first round pick.
I think the idea is that we should have gotten more for Tapp
The lack of a third round pick isn’t relevant to me, honestly I think we should have said give us the second, but more than a 4 and some garbage.
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 17, 2010 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions
right - but if he had to go...
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 17, 2010 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions
the fact that they traded him - meaning they decided he had to go
Overall if it is stupid move, but I would have been annoyed the got rid of one of my favorite players to bring in new and equal talent, instead they got rid of one of my favorite players to add depth at a position.
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 17, 2010 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm sensing that there's a disconnect in the percieved value of late round draft picks and the actual value.
A fourth isn’t adding comparable or better depth than what Tapp provides.
I'm not justifying it - I think it was stupid
I would be annoyed if they traded him for the 2nd they tendered him but I wouldn’t think they were idiots like I do now.
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 17, 2010 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions
right - annoyance for losing one of your favorite players
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 17, 2010 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions
In my mind that's the bare minimum it takes to move Tapp.
Like you, I wouldn’t be very thrilled but I would have accepted it.
again not justifying - added depth by getting players for one
even if those two or significantly worse than what we had.
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 17, 2010 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions
If he had to go then the return value should have been high enough to justify it.
Also, why would he “have to go”?
Technically, we could have had both.
Then everything would be awesome.
I'M A SOUNDER ALL BLUE AND GREEN! AND WHEN I'M DRINKING I'M ALWAYS DRINKING TO A SOUNDERS VICTORY!
by Robert on Mar 17, 2010 9:35 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
FUNNY STORY!
TAPP AND DEON GRANT HAVE BOTH SHOPPED AT MY STORE! UH OHS TO ALL YOU PEEPS OUT THERE THAT OWN A LEROY HILL JERESY!
by Robert on Mar 17, 2010 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Anderson to the Cards.
Some solace taken today. We’re not the only stupid team in the division.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
No but we are in the stupidest division in football
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 17, 2010 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions
not more than 25 - assuming the Cards get 8 or 9
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 17, 2010 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions
Why would the cards win 8 or 9?
They lost Warner, Boldin, Dansby and Rolle.
Both their offense and defense should decline from the previous two years.
6/14/40. Sweet.
by Nick Andron on Mar 17, 2010 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions
Kerry Rhodes should be fine replacing Rolle.
The Boldin loss is buffered by the emergence of Breaston and to a lesser extent, Doucet. Beanie Wells should continue to get better and despite the fumbling issue, he still managed 4.5ypa last year. I think they have enough talent to go 8-8, or if Leinart is better than expected and SF and us don’t make necessary improvements, even 9 or 10. 10 might be a little bit of a stretch, that’s definitely their best case scenario.
by SeaTownBlueDevil on Mar 17, 2010 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions
I think it's hilarious
that folks are having a conniption over a pass-rushing DE who had 2.5 sacks and zero forced or recovered fumbles last year. Save the hysterics for a time when a playmaker gets traded.
Kevaru, it's not about the specific player that got traded
It is about the process. When you are a rebuilding team you don’t trade away young, cheap talent for an older backup and a low 4th round draft pick. Besides the fact that Tapp was our most disruptive DE last year.
by seattle_since_81 on Mar 17, 2010 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions
He was one of our bright spots and we haven't had many of those
It was also a bad trade because they tendered a 2nd for him and we got a 4th and a crappy player with a bad contract. We see it as an ominous sign from the new regime.
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 17, 2010 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions
To briefly address this comment
A) Sacks are more a product of the defense as a whole than the individual player. Darryl Tapp was noted for being an exceptionally disruptive DE. If the defense around him was a touch better, his sack totals and other counting stats would have improved or skyrocketed.
B) Darryl Tapp is 25, good, and young. At worst he can be described as an average DE. These are valuable traits worth far more than a 4th and a scrub
C) This is another personnel move in a series of personnel moves that have ranged from questionable (franchising Mare) to horrific (trading Tapp). This does not bode well for the future of the franchise.
Brief counterpoints to brief address
a) Even a god-awful defence like St. Louis can have 2 geezers like Leonard Little and James Hall more than double Tapp’s total. Sometimes it just about beating your man one on one and Tapp couldn’t produce last year.
b) Randy Moss was traded for a 4th and Oakland didn’t even get a scrub out of it, so it’s looking better than that deal (keep your chin up!). If Darryl Tapp was really that good teams would have been jumping to give away their 2nd round pick for him.
c) I’m not going to argue this point because I largely agree. I will add the old cliché “desperate times call for desperate measures”.
There's a front page post that just went up highlighting how good Tapp was this season, go read it.
Just because Randy Moss was traded for garbage does not excuse that Tapp was dealt for garbage.
Desperate measures do not include mind numbingly awful personnel decisions.
Why is it mind-numbingly awful?
Tapp signed a one-year tender. Would he have signed a long term contract after? What was the figures in the Eagles contract? Was Tapp good value for a long term contract? Would Seattle have gotten any compensation if Tapp had walked at the end of the year?
The better gamble is to retain Tapp and try to resign him to a long term contract
Given the fact that he’s 25 right now and he’s shown good ability, he is more than worth a long contract.
The marginal value of a 4th and Clemons wasn’t worth giving up a chance to retain Tapp long term. A second, maybe, but anything less than that no.
A player is only worth what is contract states
This is salary cap football remember. I’m not standing in the room between Tapp’s agent and the front office so I can’t know how far apart the sides were. I assume that value and production had to play a role in the decision.
With a monetary value.
The size of the contract was probably the biggest factor. Obviously the organization felt the dollars didn’t match what Tapp was producing.
Is that supposed to make it better?
Because if that’s the organization sucks at evaluating talent.
Oakland is an exception not the rule
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 17, 2010 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions
Again, you miss the boat.
"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child
by SSreporters on Mar 17, 2010 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions
Well, since we don't really have "a playmaker."
We’ll have a conniption over Tapp.
It's Great to be a Florida Gator!
The Arizona Cardinals' plan for success:
-Lose all talent on team to retirement and free agency.
-Call it a day.
by Wayward Llama on Mar 17, 2010 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Does Chris Clemons suck?
I know nothing about him. Apparently, sack totals and other stats don’t give us the measure of a player. Are we sure he’s a scrub? Why? — I’m hoping someone has some reasons to assume this.
if he is as good as tap
it’s still a terrible trade because he is turning 29 before the season starts. Tapp is 25.
by Hancock.Brett on Mar 17, 2010 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions
So, if he's exactly as good as Tapp.
We got a 4th rounder and got 3 years older (Tapp will be 26 in September.)
If they were theoretical talent matches, we would be receiving a 4th round pick in exchange for getting a player that is 3 years older and under contract for longer.
In that scenario, this is not a big deal.
Of course, they are almost certainly not talent matches. So — for me to decide on how good this trade is — I need to know exactly what the talent comparison is. Simple as that.
by purplepansy on Mar 17, 2010 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions
In this scenario age matters more than ability.
Tapp is more valuable to use because we’re rebuilding and he’s 25. Clemons is entering his age 29 seaosn.
26.
But yes, we were compensated for that age difference with a 4th round pick. Is a 3 year age difference + longer contract worth a 4th round pick? Honestly, I have no idea.
by purplepansy on Mar 17, 2010 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions
A three year age difference is a pretty big deal and a 4th round pick just isn't very valuable.
Given that the remainder of Clemons contract covers time that this team needs to rebuild, it just isn’t worth it. The better gamble is to retain Tapp and try to sign him long term. Tapp could still very well be good when the team is competetive again, but the odds are slim that Clemons would be.
Ok, you may be correct that a 4th rounder isn't adequate compensation for a 3 year age difference.
But it has to be somewhere in the ballpark right? So, my argument concludes that, in this theoretical situation, we shouldn’t be up in arms about this trade. Now, if you are going to presume that Clemons sucks, then by all means, be up in arms. But, I need some evidence that he sucks. If presented with adequate evidence that Clemons sucks, you have convinced me that this trade sucks as well.
by purplepansy on Mar 17, 2010 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions
We have to be up in arms about this trade because the process is atrocious.
Darryl Tapp is precisely the kind of player a rebuilding team needs to hang on to. Rebuilding teams don’t jettison talented young players like him. They jettison older players with no skill or older players who still have value.
Marcus Trufant? I think that’s the kind of person you trade right now, not Tapp.
I think you are missing my point.
I understand you are upset about the process if Chris Clemons sucks. However, in my theoretical situation are you upset about the process, if they are both exactly, equally good? I’m not. Getting 3 years older for a longer contract and a 4th rounder just doesn’t seem like a big deal to me in this, admittedly unlikely, theoretical situation. Again, like I said, if I had any reason to truly know that Clemons sucks, I will agree this process was so bad that everyone needed to post about it.
by purplepansy on Mar 17, 2010 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions
Age matters and I can't emphasize this enough.
It doesn’t matter how good Chris Clemons is, he’s significantly older than Tapp. The odds of Chris Clemons being good when the Seahawks are once again competitive is slim. Toss in the fact that a fourth rounder carries little value and this all adds up to a bad, bad trade.
Gotcha.
I guess we just disagree too much on the value of a three year age difference. If I’m running the team, I don’t make this trade either — I can certainly see your point. Perhaps I’m just being too much of an optimist in this situation.
by purplepansy on Mar 17, 2010 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Let's put it this way.
Say it takes three years for the Seahawks to be competitive again. That puts Clemons at his age 31 season, whereas Tapp would be in his age 29 season. I would wager that Tapp would be significantly more productive than Clemons would.
Yep, you make great points. I agree.
I guess the only sticking point is how likely we were to resign Tapp where he would be here at age 29. I don’t think any of us can know that.
by purplepansy on Mar 17, 2010 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions
I would simply say that the marginal benefits gained from a 4th and Clemons
isn’t worth dumping the chance to re-sign Tapp long term.
I had a dream last night that it was Week 1
We were on our own 20, Spiller rushed to the 25, broke a tackle and then ran for an 80 yard touchdown. It was a pretty bodacious dream.
There is no way a coach would keep his players in that kind of a blow out
It would be more like 42-7 let’s not go over board here.
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 17, 2010 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Here's a ridiculous conspiracy theory to make you all feel better.
We already have a trade worked out for Whitehurst. Basically, we said, “Chargers, wait until we make this Tapp trade and we’ll give you what we get — 3rd or 4th or whatever.” They say OK, we’ll wait to see what you get but it at least needs to be a 4th. The Seahawks know the Chargers will take a 4th or 3rd for Whitehurst — whatever we get. Instead of getting a straight up 3rd for Tapp, we decide to screw the Chargers and get a shitty player and the 4th to trade for Whitehurst. So, we could have gotten more, but we just wanted to screw the Chargers over. I’m pretty sure this is exactly what happened.
Pete Carroll is a genius.
I can only assume this is what happened until I hear further.
by purplepansy on Mar 17, 2010 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
La Confara reports...
Whitehurst will sign his tender with the Chargers, opening up the door for a trade.
by SeahawkSammy on Mar 17, 2010 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Mmmm....no.
The Chargers could just not trade him. They hold the cards.
by lemonverbena on Mar 17, 2010 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Oh yeah, we sure showed those Chargers.
Tapp to the Eagles! How ya like me now! Huh? Can you take the heat? Don’t make me go all Mebane to the Steelers, Bordertown, cuz I will!
by jacobstevens on Mar 17, 2010 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Watch us draft a beastly nose-tackle and surprise everyone by switching to a 3-4.
Tapp wouldn’t necessarily fit a 3-4. That doesn’t excuse the lack of value we attained, but would make ’doesn’t fit our scheme sense’. Mebane could be a monster end, I would guess, but don’t know. Fielding Hill, Heater, Tats, Curry would be awesome. Could explain the Dwan Landry interest, too.
I'd be okay with that
it would make sense – John Vilma only got a 4th round because he didn’t fit into a 3 -4.
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 17, 2010 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions
Wish I could.
Stuck in class all day. This is my only reprieve from class actions and negotiations.
by purplepansy on Mar 17, 2010 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions
Stuck teaching class all day...
At least we aren't the Raiders?
by Generzal Zod on Mar 17, 2010 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions
Would have been stuck teaching class all day last year...
…but got laid off due to budget cuts, so I get to be home freaking out all day. And I don’t drink, so that doesn’t help…maybe I’ll just go mow the lawn.
Mowing the yard is always a good release.
I would have done that today had I not been so lazy.
I got to Home Depot, got some provisions, and came home and played God of War 3.
It's Great to be a Florida Gator!
The Arizona Cardinals' plan for success:
-Lose all talent on team to retirement and free agency.
-Call it a day.
by Wayward Llama on Mar 17, 2010 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions
also relentlessly pounded the refresh button on
several nfl news sites.
It's Great to be a Florida Gator!
The Arizona Cardinals' plan for success:
-Lose all talent on team to retirement and free agency.
-Call it a day.
by Wayward Llama on Mar 17, 2010 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions
I got the "refresh button" thing down.
Don’t have that latest-gen machine, yet, either, so the best I can do is clean and mow. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
By “provisions” do you mean twizzler and Sprite?
Coffee.
and plastic edging material. And some wood to build the garden box.
It's Great to be a Florida Gator!
The Arizona Cardinals' plan for success:
-Lose all talent on team to retirement and free agency.
-Call it a day.
by Wayward Llama on Mar 17, 2010 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions
I found this a curious relief from my current state of dismay, however temporary it may be:
2) Each trade should be evaluated on the results of the trade. If a trade looks like it’s an amazing rip-off, even if at the time everyone acknowledges it as such, but the victim turns out the winner due to unforseen circumstances, the victim’s still the victor.
Yeah, that works.
Also, in some belief systems, the victim is often the victor, perhaps BECAUSE of being the victim. We’ll get ours, eventually. And it will be good. I swear by the powers of Whitehurst…and Nick Reed.
Here's that quote in context, because you appear to have missed the entire point
The Foppert release provides a good opportunity to talk about something that frequently comes up in discussions here as an object of contention. When evaluating a trade, there are, to horribly oversimplify, two schools of thought.
1) Each trade should be evaluated on what’s known at the time. If a trade turns out much better than expected, or much worse, that shouldn’t affect our opinion of the trade.
2) Each trade should be evaluated on the results of the trade. If a trade looks like it’s an amazing rip-off, even if at the time everyone acknowledges it as such, but the victim turns out the winner due to unforseen circumstances, the victim’s still the victor.
Obviously, in practice it doesn’t work out that way. Members of the first camp are willing to concede that results are why you make trades, and members of the second camp might well admit that you make the best deal you can and then it’s a bit of a crapshoot.
Generally speaking, I’m almost always in the "time of trade" camp. The example I always cite is "if I walk into the Bellagio, find a roulette table and bet everything I own on number 23 and win, was that a good move?"
People who say yes because it turned out regardless of the odds I received are crazy.
People who say that there are situations where it makes sense – I need to raise money in five minutes to pay for a million-dollar medical procedure, for instance – make sense.
And let's also use the famous Ichiro for a can of Sprite example
If the Mariners traded Ichiro tomorrow for a can of Sprite, and next week Ichiro tore his hamstring while the can of Sprite turned out to be delicious, that wouldn’t make that trade any better.
What if Jack Z was really thirsty and knew Ichiro was about to mess up his hammy? ;)
by Roy Weaver Stuckey on Mar 17, 2010 5:45 PM PDT up reply actions
He should probably go apply for a PhD in biomechanics and win some sort of award for discovering how to predict injury.
And buy his own delicious can of Sprite.
He does admit that the trade evaluation method he advocates has a couple problems as well though.
1. We don’t have all of the information; in fact, we have very little information about the background of this — Carroll’s thinking, the Eagles thinking, what else was done to trade/not trade Tapp.
2. The results DO matter — and though they may not be the best way to evaluate trades, they tell us a lot more than some people are willing to give credit for.
You can't really rely on unforeseen circumstances
Which is where the “bad process” argument comes from.
Who cares about becoming the victor temporarily if you have no freaking clue how you got there? Good luck repeating success.
From Tapp's own mouth -
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5006132
“I think a change of scenery will be good,” Tapp said. “I guess last year I had 2½ sacks, but honestly in my eyes, I feel like it was my best year. I had 2½ sacks and 18 quarterback hits. Last year was just a difficult situation with the circumstances that we had in Seattle. So, stats don’t always tell the story. It’s what you see on the surface.”
Yeesh!
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