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The Seahawks Offseason to Date

02/12/2010 Signed LS Patrick MacDonald and LS Matt Overton.

Why this is good: Kevin Houser suffered a collapsed lung and adding depth at long snapper is practical.

Why this is bad: It is not bad. Whatever Seattle's recent history, long snapper should be an easy enough position to fill and adding freely available talent is the right way to ensure depth.

02/23/2010 Signed DE Ricky Foley and P Tom Malone.

Why this is good: Foley is a semi-accomplished situational pass rusher. He is Clemons, but cheaper and acquired without trading a resource. Malone seems to be similar in style and ability to Jon Ryan.

Why this is bad: There is nothing wrong with signing Foley, but he has limited value. Ryan's $1.6 million signing bonus likely precludes Seattle cutting him, meaning Malone is not likely to make the Seahawks. Neither move is bad, but neither move is likely to add much value.

02/24/2010 Placed franchise tag on K Olindo Mare.

Why this is good: Olindo Mare is very good at kickoffs.

Why this is bad: Kickoff ability is undervalued, and it is possible to likely that capable kickers are freely available. Using the franchise tag on Mare stopped Seattle from applying the tag to either Cory Redding or Nate Burleson. Burleson had obvious value on the open market. He was the very first player signed in free agency, and he signed to a five-year, $25 million contract. Even if Seattle had no interest in Burleson, applying a tag would have allowed Seattle to trade him.

03/08/2010 Traded QB Seneca Wallace to Cleveland for a 2011 undisclosed draft pick.

Why this is good: Wallace had little chance of contributing to the Seahawks as a quarterback and trading him for anything is more valuable than cutting him.

Why this is bad: As a semi-accomplished backup quarterback, Wallace would have retained value up to and through the preseason. Seattle had no pressing reason to ship him off, and seemingly moved him when his value was its absolute lowest. Had Seattle waited for an inevitable injury, it could likely have gotten more in trade. If the ceiling for Seneca was a conditional sixth or seventh round pick in 2011, Seattle would have wrung more value from Wallace by keeping him as a wildcat quarterback. However you want to look at it, Seattle traded an asset for as little as possible.

03/15/2010 Released S Deon Grant, LS Matt Overton and RB Tyler Roehl.

Why this is good: Grant was due quite a bit over the final few seasons of his contract, he was not an irreplaceable player, and he turned 31 March 14.

Why this is bad: Seattle had no pressing need to release Grant. Releasing him opens a hole in an already thin unit. In light of recent moves, Seattle truly does seem committed to making a run this season, and Grant is likely better than a rookie. Seattle is now obligated to add a starter-capable safety. This removes flexibility. Had Seattle retained Grant, it could have added a developmental safety in almost any round. Instead, Seattle must add a week one starter.

03/15/2010 Signed WR Ruvell Martin.

Why this is good: Martin has moderate upside and fits Carroll's preference for larger receivers.

Why this is bad: It isn't. Nothing spent but money.

03/15/2010 Signed TE Chris Baker

Why this is good: Baker fills a need at tight end without costing draft picks.

Why this is bad: Baker is 30 and probably pretty close to washed up. He is on his third team in three seasons, his production as a receiver has plummeted, and his contract should ensure he makes the team, whatever his actual value. Not a terrible move, but also not one that helps a rebuilding franchise. Adding a young tight end adds potential, and a blocking tight should be available late in the draft or even as an undrafted free agent. Classic blunder of assuming veteran stability now, while ignoring impending decline and sacrificing development time and upside.

03/16/2010 Traded Darryl Tapp for Chris Clemons and a Fourth Round Selection

Why this is good: A fourth round selection is decently valuable, and this is a good draft.

Why this is bad: As the Foley signing indicates, Clemons is probably worse than a freely available situational pass rusher. The list of situational pass rushers that can squeeze out a few sacks is long and undistinguished. Clemons matches the profile, but adds sizable injury risk. If Seattle was locked into adding a situational pass rusher, it could have done it the same way the Skins acquired Clemons, by inviting an undrafted linebacker to training camp. Linebacker sized players with some speed and some agility are relatively plentiful. A young player gives a young, rebuilding team upside without adding financial risk. Clemons adds downside and a free agent contract.

In an average draft, the pick Seattle received for Tapp, a fourth round selection, is likely to produce a single-year starter of undetermined but presumably poor quality. Not only is this pick unlikely to produce an impact player or even a regular, but that player is unlikely to produce until many years down the road. For a team that is getting older, and has invested in an older quarterback it hopes to quickly develop, it turned a player on the brink of his prime into a draft pick unlikely to contribute for years.

The greatest damage done is losing Tapp. Tapp is a young player with good potential, but beyond that, was already one of the very best players on the Seahawks defense. However bad Seattle's defense was, and I know many think it was very bad, it was not tainted. Every part of the defense was not equally responsible for the overall failure, and seeing Tapp as a bad player because the defense on the whole was bad is a foolish oversimplification. Philly recognized Tapp's potential, cutting Darren Howard and immediately locking Tapp up through 2013. His contract is dirt cheap and easy to escape. Finally, there is no indication that Tapp simply refused to play in Seattle. He described the transaction as bittersweet. In fact, Tapp recently married a local Seattle woman.

03/16/2010 Bar Rob Sims from Offseason Workouts

Why this is good: It's not. There is no reason this is good.

Why this is bad: Seattle put a cap on Sims trade value by placing an original round tender on the former fourth round pick. Not only is locking him out of offseason workouts disruptive and bad PR, but it removes leverage. Seattle is now locked into trading Sims, and whatever was formerly offered may now be reduced. If Seattle would have controlled their leaks, they could have done what a smart franchise does, announce trades when they are complete rather than putting their players in limbo.

03/17/2010 Traded for Charlie Whitehurst

Why this is good: Adding a quarterback is very encouraging step for a team that just a couple months ago was throwing its support behind Matt Hasselbeck. Whitehurst has a good set of tools and some pro ready skills. His potential is decent, even if his floor is bottomless.

Why this is bad: Seattle became the first team I can remember that signed a tendered player and agreed to trade more than the original tender in exchange. Multiple quarterbacks changed hands before the Seahawks signed Whitehurst, and there is no reason to assume Whitehurst has much more potential than Brady Quinn or Derek Anderson. He is older and less experienced than either. Some are awarding him credit for having not screwed up in a regular season game, but his preseason stats are markedly worse than Quinn or Anderson's regular season stats.

It is very had to reconcile Whitehurst's value with what Seattle spent to sign him. After Arizona signed Anderson, the Seahawks were the lone suitors for Whitehurst. At that point, and now knowing the Chargers terms, Seattle should have walked away. Whenever it became clear that Whitehurst would cost 20 spots in the second round and a third-round pick in 2011, Seattle should have walked away. Whitehurst has to first beat out Matt Hasselbeck, and assuming Hasselbeck will stay healthy through the preseason, that should be difficult. Then he has to prove his career to date does not reflect his actual value. If he does neither, proves his high sack percentage and low completion percentage accurately reflect his potential, Seattle will have exchanged a quite a bit of value for nothing.

If Whitehurst does develop, how long will it take? Hasselbeck needed about one and a half seasons to become respectable, but he was younger, groomed by a quarterback guru, and hand picked to play in Mike Holmgren's offense. Trent Green, another late in life starter, needed three seasons. He was not a good quarterback until his age 32 season, and that breakout occurred on a Chiefs offense Seattle has little hope of replicating. Seattle signed Whitehurst to a two-year contract. When it has expired, will Seattle be able to accurately judge his ability? Probably not. If he doesn't beat out Hasselbeck, should Seattle count on him in 2011 and beyond? No, and so Seattle would be back at square one. Quarterback is the most valuable position on the field, and finding a good one is worth almost any cost, but Whitehurst is tantalizing at best, and still faces a long journey to becoming a starter, much less a good one.

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Please stop...

This is depressing John. I’m kind of joking.

This one line will sit in the pit of my stomach for the next several months – ‘Seattle became the first team I can remember that signed a tendered player and agreed to trade more than the original tender in exchange’.

Am I crazy to think the Hawks should trade Hasselbeck for whatever they can get and just throw caution to the wind with Whitehurst? The thought of a QB battle lingering into the regular season is frightening.

by jjhsix on Mar 19, 2010 7:50 AM PDT reply actions  

Seattle took a woeful QB situation (which Ruskell started)

And made it worse. Could you imagine if Seattle actually drafted a QB in the first round? That’s a gigantic contract for the rookie, a decent contract and significant value traded away for Whitehurst (who is essentially a rookie if he hasn’t thrown an NFL pass), and then the veteran Hasselbeck. Could you imagine that QB competition?

There’s no way this is going to shape up nicely.

Thanks for writing this John.

"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child

by SSreporters on Mar 19, 2010 7:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

Acquiring Whitehurst means the DON'T have to draft a QB

I see this as a positive. $8M and an the equivalent of an early third round pick is a lot less to risk then $35M and the #6 pick.

by A-Dog on Mar 19, 2010 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

They can go with a guy they want to develop

like Robinson, Snead, Brown, or shudder the thought McCoy or Tebow.

They may also wait until next year and still give Whitehurst another year so they can sit the QB of the future.

At least we aren't the Raiders?

by Generzal Zod on Mar 19, 2010 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

Drafting a QB next year could be MUCH more financially feasible

if they put a rookie wage scale in… this is probably the WORST year to draft a QB high – in terms of financial risk.

by A-Dog on Mar 19, 2010 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

That's a pretty good point.

I forgot about the rookie wage scale (assuming it materializes)

6/14/40. Sweet.

by Nick Andron on Mar 19, 2010 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

You should probably change your sig.

But I think this is a good bet. If it fails, it’s a net of a low 2nd rounder the Hawks are giving up, spread over two years. If it succeeds, it saves you a first.

What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the cheerleaders!

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Mar 19, 2010 8:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think agents are going to make these first rounders break some teams

I think their will be a lot of hold outs

At least we aren't the Raiders?

by Generzal Zod on Mar 19, 2010 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, Yes and Yes

I’m thrilled we aren’t allocating the 6th overall pick in this draft to a rookie QB with a massive contract. Whitehurst is essentially a discount rookie with 4 years or apprenticeship in the NFL. We’ve addressed the all-important position with less risk and equal or greater upside as any QB we could get in this draft.

If, say, Okung falls to at 6, Spiller at 14 and a prospect like Zac Robinson snagged, I will be over the motherfucking moon. And all the FG lemmings leaping off the cliff of despair will be reversing course in midair.

by lemonverbena on Mar 19, 2010 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

I understand your enthusiasm for Whitehurst

but you can’t really think he has equal potential with anyone in this draft.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

I disagree with part of this.

The word ‘potential’ is very fluid. While it’s true Whitehurst might not be able to play at a high level or be a quality starter for as long as a rookie drafted this year, but his ceiling can still be as high or higher with less years to get there than a rookie due to his experience. I think that balances things out to a degree.

I understand the age and QB decline percentages you’ve brought up before and maybe it does apply here. I’m all ears if it does and would welcome the ‘how’ part of that, but I wonder if those account for bench time? Is Whitehurst’s 28 as it relates to his ‘athletic prime’ firmly the same as a 28-year old starter that became a starter at a significantly earlier age?

by Misfit74 on Mar 19, 2010 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think he has equal upside and even a higher floor, yes

And by “anyone” I mean any QB available to Seattle in this draft. Bradford will be gone and Clausen may well be too.

by lemonverbena on Mar 19, 2010 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

3 years studying under Norv Turner

What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the cheerleaders!

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Mar 19, 2010 8:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

I am also excited about the reduced financial risk.

and the potential absence of a cap-crippling rookie QB contract on our team’s books. Adding Whitehurst has to factor in the inherent risk of drafting a QB in the top 6. Furthermore, wouldn’t we be in a very tough spot if both were gone by #6? I like the Whitehurst move even if the price and process doesn’t seem ideal right now. Our team may have solved the most important position in football and freed us up to add an elite player at another position.

Quarterback is sometimes more of a big-picture decision, as evidenced by how the Packers handled Rodgers and the GB QB situation and how Holmgren handled ours, including when he brought in Matt.

by Misfit74 on Mar 19, 2010 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm of the opinion that Whitehurst will start both years (barring complete disaster)

That opinion stems primarily from two things:

1. Contract – the length, primarily, is very significant. I doubt we’re paying a guy $4 million to sit on the bench with the hopes he’ll blossom into a talented quarterback in the final year of his contract. I think Carroll is going to play Whitehurst for two years and hope he transforms into the QB we all hope he can become in that time frame.

2. Renegotiation clause – The clause reportedly states the Hawks have the opportunity to renegotiate his contract after one year. What’s there to negotiate after a year of riding pine?

Honestly, at this point, I rather Whitehurst starts. From a long term perspective, we have NOTHING to gain by starting Hasselbeck. This team isn’t going to magically turn into a contender this year; Matt could bring us wins, but at what cost?

I’d rather play Whitehurst out, and find out sooner rather than later if he’s the Hawks’ future or not. Playing Hass will only delay the inevitable.

6/14/40. Sweet.

by Nick Andron on Mar 19, 2010 7:59 AM PDT reply actions  

I agree with Nick...

What’s the benefit of sitting Whitehurst when he is already going to be 28 by week 1? Unless you think this team has serious playoff potential with Hasselbeck I see no benefit in Whitehurst holding a clipboard for ANOTHER year. The only benefit I can see for Carroll is that it puts his decision making on the hot seat right from week 1if his hand picked QB is the starter. You created this Pete.

by jjhsix on Mar 19, 2010 8:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

Plus the magnitude of this trade ties PCs legacy to Whitehurst

You have to play him when you have tied so much to him. He flat out said that he is the QB of the future. If you are going to renegotiate after one year, the future better start now.

by stufr on Mar 19, 2010 8:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

This is not a regime-defining move

We gave up the equivalent of the last pick in the first round and a 2-year deal for $4M per. This is not like the Cutler deal or the Hershel walker deal. The magnitude of this deal is pretty small.

by A-Dog on Mar 19, 2010 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

correction - last pick in the 2nd round

and late 2nd round draft picks are not going to make or break someones legacy

by A-Dog on Mar 19, 2010 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

Last pick in the 2nd?

More like FIRST round picks in both 2012 and 2013. We just gave up two firsts for this guy.
(This is a valid argument for anyone who thinks a 4th this year is worth a 3rd next year, and a 3rd this year is worth a 2nd next year, and so on.)

by Kryten on Mar 19, 2010 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not following you

based on the draft value board (which is of course not the be-all-end-all) the picks/position we gave up get Whitehurst are equivalent points-wise to the very last pick in round two.

by A-Dog on Mar 19, 2010 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

Thank you-- and no offense to you...

or any other of my Seahawk bretheren.

The way I see it, the drop of 20 spots is worth a 3rd round pick, plus we gave up another 3rd. We really did give up two 3rds for this guy who was only tendered a single 3rd. We paid double— but that’s what it took to beat out that other team that wanted him (Seattle I believe).

by Kryten on Mar 19, 2010 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Completely disagree

Jay Cutler is a proven gunslinger in the right offense.

Whitehurst is a 28 year old rookie that’s never thrown a pass in an NFL regular season game. He’s lost years of critical playing time and it’s likely he’ll never amount to a successful QB.

6/14/40. Sweet.

by Nick Andron on Mar 19, 2010 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

That's crazy talk

We’ve got too many needs to throw the 6th and 14th overall picks into one position.

by lemonverbena on Mar 19, 2010 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

He has shown that he can throw a lot of picks and put up yards

not that good in the clutch – we could get that with Clausen at 6 or maybe 14.

At least we aren't the Raiders?

by Generzal Zod on Mar 19, 2010 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

Chargers fan here.

Good luck with Whitehurst: he’s underrated.

Having watched a whole lot of Cutler (rooting against him, of course), I can tell y’all he has the physical tools but not the psychological ones. There’s a reason McDaniels picked a fight with him and traded him to Chicago. He’ll always be the star superstud of an 8-8 disappointment: he’s good enough to carry some games, but every once in awhile he gives one away, then blames it on the defense. This particularly happens when do-or-die time comes around. ‘Course, now instead of looking bad by comparison to the PR Machine, he’ll look bad by comparison to Aaron Rodgers for the rest of his career.

What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the cheerleaders!

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Mar 19, 2010 8:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

The talent levels are somewhat irrelevant

The reason the Cutler move is regime-defining and the Whitehurst move is not is entirely due to what was given up to acquire them.

by A-Dog on Mar 19, 2010 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

I botched that post

should say IS entirely due to

We may have overpaid slightly for Whitehurst but the franchise is not handicapped if he doesn’t turn in to a franchise QB

It’s Cutler or bust for Chicago

by A-Dog on Mar 19, 2010 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

The Whitehurst move is regime defining

Because Seattle is rebuilding. By giving up what they gave up (and it’s quite a bit without it being a straight up 1st round pick) to find the next QB for this team it is regime defining. Going with an unproven backup who has been in the league for 4 years over a Clausen or Bradford is just as risky.

Cutler was in a situation where they thought they were in contention and they weren’t. Lovie and the management forgot about receivers, offensive linemen, and defensive stalwarts to replace aging guys like Urlacher. It’s also regime defining but in a different manner.

"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child

by SSreporters on Mar 19, 2010 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

The cost of Whitehurst is small enough that theyc an cut bait

and acquire another QB next year if he isn’t working out.

Right now, he gives the team someone to compete with Hasselbeck, insurance if Hasselbeck gets hurt (and for next year, when Hasselbeck’s contract is up), and POTENTIALLY gives them their QB of the future.

The last pick in the second round does not typically set the course for an entire franchise. If Whitehurst turns out to be “The Guy,” then this trade will certainly be significant. If he fails, it’s not THAT big a deal.

by A-Dog on Mar 19, 2010 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

This move alone isn't going to sink the franchise

But that doesn’t mean it’s not regime-defining. This was a bad move, you can’t make a habit of pissing away talent and picks like this for very long before you do sink the franchise, and there is a disturbing trend developing here.

by OlSalty on Mar 19, 2010 5:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

If Whitehurst holds down the starter spot on two mediocre seasons...

… it was a value pick. All the Seahawks need is a little time to rebuild their lines, and they did a really good job spreading the value of this trade out over two years, giving up picks/positions that (hopefully) won’t sting as much as the raw on-paper value when the ‘Hawks’ window opens.

What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the cheerleaders!

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Mar 19, 2010 8:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sam Bradford and Jimmy Clausen haven't thrown a pass in the NFL either

essentially we just saved 50 million dollars from signing Whitehurst instead of investing in guys like Bradford or Clausen. Give the guy a chance.

by Seahawksfan23 on Mar 19, 2010 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

No mileage isn't necessarily a good thing

He’s got 0 experience, and those lost years are critical in any QB’s development.

6/14/40. Sweet.

by Nick Andron on Mar 19, 2010 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

He has zero regular or post-season game experience.

But he’s played extensively in the pre-season and practiced and learned in one of the best passing-offenses in football. He’s watched one of the game’s elite players at the position for 4 seasons.

by Misfit74 on Mar 19, 2010 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

Is the 3rd-string passing offense and the points of the game he played in something you know?

There starters with their QB, and a game-plan, and an entire game qualifies as ‘one of the best passing-offenses’. I don’t know his experience was in the best of situations to judge. 197 attempts isn’t a lot, either. And he wasn’t God-awful, but he wasn’t very good, either.

by Misfit74 on Mar 19, 2010 5:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

I guess we have different definitions of the word awful

You were using the strength of the Chargers passing offense as a point in his favor, I was simply illustrating that it didn’t exactly make him good to watch Phillip Rivers play all the time, and I don’t think that’s a very good argument for his potential success.

by OlSalty on Mar 19, 2010 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sure.

I’m just saying it’s possible his knowledge of that offense is more quantifiable than his experience is evidence. 4 years learning, very little playing time in not the best circumstances.

by Misfit74 on Mar 19, 2010 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

And age isn't as significant with QBs as with other skill positions.

His body isn’t 28 in a football sense. He could easily have a similar career and become a starter faster due to his experience than either top QB in this year’s class. Without a potential cap-crippling contract.

by Misfit74 on Mar 19, 2010 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

28 is 28.

Aging is aging. Your body will begin to slowly break down whether you play football, sit on the couch or be frozen in statis. K maybe that last one might slow things down.

6/14/40. Sweet.

by Nick Andron on Mar 19, 2010 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Apparently 27 is 28

since he’s won’t be 28 for five more months, yet people keep saying that’s how old he is.

by A-Dog on Mar 19, 2010 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

He'll be 28 by the time football starts.

That’s what they are referring to.

Now with more lemon bars!

by Fear on Mar 19, 2010 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, but people also say Hass was 25 when we got him

even though he turned 26 the first month of the season.

If we’re saying Whitehurst is “essentially” 28, then Hass was “essentially” 26, since their birthdays are little more than a month apart.

by A-Dog on Mar 19, 2010 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's fair, but again, 2 years is 2 years.

That’s a LONG time in a QB’s prime years with NO NFL experience.

6/14/40. Sweet.

by Nick Andron on Mar 19, 2010 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Also, aging isn't just aging in football

Just ask Troy Aikman and Steve Young. Or pretty much any running back. The hits add up, and the damage is cumulative.

Whitehurst may be 28, and his window of “peak athleticism” might be close sooner than a Clausen, but skills-wise QB’s age relatively gracefully, and Whitehurst’s body hasn’t taken on a lot of damage from hits over his first four years like he would have if he’d been starting.

by A-Dog on Mar 19, 2010 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Matt be on his way out too.

He could be a part of a package to adjust draft order.

At least we aren't the Raiders?

by Generzal Zod on Mar 19, 2010 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

They will lock Matt out of VM...

then start the standard government bidding process (you know— low bid wins).

by Kryten on Mar 19, 2010 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think Matt is going anywhere

Because I honestly don’t think Pete Carroll knows who his starting quarterback is going to be.

Competition, competitive, compete, compete, compete, competition.

#ItworkedatUSC

by busplunger on Mar 19, 2010 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

I just want someone to step up and earn the position

if someone does that then I consider the Whitehurst move a good one.

At least we aren't the Raiders?

by Generzal Zod on Mar 19, 2010 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

Always compete.

Compete. Pumped. Jacked. Finish. Compete.

by lemonverbena on Mar 19, 2010 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

They don't know yet what they're getting with Whitehurst

I think if he proves himself in training camp, Hass is gone. If he doesn’t, Hass stays another year.

by B.B.Finnegan on Mar 19, 2010 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

Agree

and prefer, after reading your comment.

by rossco17 on Mar 19, 2010 8:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

Just for discussion fodder, Whitehurst's adjusted net yards per attempt by preseason.

2006: 1.02
2007: 3.36
2008: 3.91 (3 fumbles)
2009: 4.32 (3 fumbles)

Anderson, career: 4.9
Quinn, career: 4.2

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 8:03 AM PDT reply actions  

any fumbles for the Cleveland guys?

Obviously, not great pre-season stats for Whitehurst. What specifically did the Q/PM see in Whitehurst in pre-season tape that made them think he was a starter?

I’m not saying he isn’t or can’t be, only asking what they saw that indicated this.

by Chirp on Mar 19, 2010 8:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

Wah

I responded to this. Damn spotty internet service. Anyway, Quinn has three in 353 attempts. Anderson has 21 in 1,109 attempts and Whitehurst has six in..I think it was 197 attempts.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 9:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

Is that a product of holding on to the ball to long?

Or his offensive line being unable to protect him?

6/14/40. Sweet.

by Nick Andron on Mar 19, 2010 9:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

Bit of both I think

Whitehurst does have a fumbling problem on his resume. This is video of his last live game experience, 9/4/09 in week 4 of the preseason (starts at 2:22). A camp body beat a camp body at left tackle, Whitehurst didn’t feel the blindside pressure and it was a strip-sack-turnover. Whitehurst came back the next series and threw a TD pass. He was 10-14 for 98 yards, 1 TD, 0 INT, the lost fumble and a 114.6 rating in his last game.

by lemonverbena on Mar 19, 2010 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

Is 197 attempts too small sample size?

2006-2009 Whitehurst had 197 total attempts over those 4 seasons and presumably none with regular starters.

by Misfit74 on Mar 19, 2010 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

No, not really.

It does not define Whitehurst, but anyone that wants to ignore how badly he played in the preseason is just willingly excluding facts to conform with their preexisting beliefs. The snaps count. His plays counts. He has sucked in the preseason, and it would be better if he hadn’t.

I mean honestly, if Whitehurst had been a stallion in the preseason, would the same people advocating throwing those stats out now being advocating throwing those stats out then? Of course not.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

No

Yes, his plays count but those numbers don’t mean anything. Not to me, anyways. Looking at those numbers and thinking “crap, this guy’s a bum!” is wrong. they don’t say anything about how well he’ll do as a starter on the Seahawks in 2010+. Nor would they if they were more “impressive”.

by rossco17 on Mar 19, 2010 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Best predictor of future performance

is past performance.

They don’t define him, as John said, but they certainly provide insight into his abilities.

6/14/40. Sweet.

by Nick Andron on Mar 19, 2010 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Did Kyle Boller's great preseason numbers predict his performance?

(that’s just one example of one side of it). While your statement may be true, it’s a broad brush phrase in this more specific discussion I think there are two sides to the ‘preseason performance’ measure. There is a laundry list of preseason stars that flunk out of the regular season. I’m not yet convinced that preseason numbers, specifically, are a good indicator, especially for a #3 QB. Film of preseason performance might to a larger degree, but until we have some of that, we can only continue to speculate as to how the FO evaluated CW.

All speculative, but I don’t think 197 attempts over the course of 4 preseasons at the #3 QB is much to go on. Though, I have to agree that it’s probably a good idea to eval some players that played poorly in the preseason and went on to be good. John makes a smart point later down this thread that I have to agree about: CW’s poor preseason performance is evidence to some degree to us fans. It’s really all we have to go on at this point.

I have to think the team based their evaluation on college tape and preseason tape that’s less numbers-related but more about seeing his footwork, release, and the way he throws the ball along with his decision-making – all the scouting methods they use, anyway. I would hope his decision making and time learning the pro offense of SD (one of the best in the game) has improved. His ability to read a defense and learned in practice and with film study at the pro level.

He’s never had a chance to start a game with a game-plan and play a full game with all starting players. We can’t say for certain – and I have hope about our new QB: admittedly with little evidence to support it on my own. I don’t know it to be true, but I have hope.

I also believe there is far to little evidence to condemn him.

by Misfit74 on Mar 19, 2010 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

John - is there any tape of Whitehurst's preseason games?

I’m not asking for a detailed breakdown; I’m more curious if Whitehurst ever QB’d the first-team offense.

6/14/40. Sweet.

by Nick Andron on Mar 19, 2010 8:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

I am working on that.

I will definitely do a tape breakdown of Whitehurst.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 8:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

Oh, cool. Thanks!

I’m holding on to this thin thread of hope that he always got stuck with third team offense comprising of PS scrubs and he simply wasn’t given much to work with.

Although his preseason stats are pretty bad, they are markedly improving, especially his 09 stats. They’re starting to approach decent.

6/14/40. Sweet.

by Nick Andron on Mar 19, 2010 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

This isn't fair

Preseason is a time for the team evaluate lesser role players and generally, the stars and play makers are kept out of the game to avoid chance of injury. Moreover, we know nothing about whether or not he’s playing with 1st, 2nd, or 3rd stringers.

This is not a fair assessment of these QBs relative skills.

by rossco17 on Mar 19, 2010 8:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think that's why it's discussion fodder.

Fodder doesn’t suggest to me that it’s the be-all and end-all to evaluation and assessment of quarterbacking skills. I think it’s just something for us to discuss. I require more than just yards per pass attempt in pre-season compared to guys who played with 1st stringers as well. That’s not this thread.

by Chirp on Mar 19, 2010 8:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

My comment is discussion

it’s comparing apples to oranges, except we don’t know that they’re oranges, so it’s comparing apples to something else that isn’t apples.

by rossco17 on Mar 19, 2010 8:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

Good point.

I think I misunderstood the context of your discussion. My bad.

I agree with the need for more assessment.

by Chirp on Mar 19, 2010 8:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

This would be the first time I read someone attempt to characterize the preseason as more difficult for a quarterback

But I guess if San Diego had very poor depth, his surrounding talent could adversely impact his performance. But really, arguing that a player who struggles in the preseason will excel in the regular season seems..confusing. It’s lesser competition and simpler schemes. It’s closer to college football.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 8:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

Don't snap our thin thread of hope, John.

If his offensive talent wasn’t worth a damn, it likely doesn’t matter if the defense is equally as worth-a-damned.

6/14/40. Sweet.

by Nick Andron on Mar 19, 2010 9:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

I would say evaluate on skills, not results

The exact results will be muddied by the competition, schemes and talent around him. Looking at the exact skills displayed would be a much better way to scout him. Much more time consuming also.

by stufr on Mar 19, 2010 9:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

I just think that to be fair

you should be comparing Whitehurst’s preseason snaps to another 3rd string QB’s first preseason snaps.

by rossco17 on Mar 19, 2010 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

Not many quarterback make it four years at third string.

But if you want something similar, I guess we could look at someone like David Greene. Greene had 5.59 adjusted net yards an attempt in 2006. Charlie Frye had 4.51 in 2007.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 9:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

I retract my call for a fair comparison

Because I don’t think one can be made. There are just too many confounding factors and the results, to me, are meaningless and probably cause unreasonable concern.

I absolutely look forward to your tape breakdown, though. If you see some glaring problems with technique that you don’t feel are fixable, I’m going to be very sad.

by rossco17 on Mar 19, 2010 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

can we really tell a lot about preseason?

if the Whitehurst trade makes someone step up and play well then it is worth it.

At least we aren't the Raiders?

by Generzal Zod on Mar 19, 2010 9:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

Probably

But I think there would still be a couple things working against him: 1) offenses are almost always behind defenses in getting up to speed during the preseason, and this is going to be amplified with an inexperienced QB under center. and 2) experience in live game action can only help a QB, so to compare his very tiny preseason sample size to those other guys’ full careers isn’t fair.

Whitehurst is very green now, but he presumably won’t always be.

by rossco17 on Mar 19, 2010 8:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

Sample size

I’m not going to draw too many conclusions on his limited number of snaps.

by A-Dog on Mar 19, 2010 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

From the TNT, via Rotoworld
The Seahawks’ acquisition of QB Charlie Whitehurst appears to have been driven primarily by GM John Schneider.

Coach Pete Carroll joked Thursday that Schneider wanted the autograph of Charlie’s father David, a quarterback for the Packers from 1977-1983. Schneider scouted Charlie at Clemson, where he fell for the QB’s “swagger” and “juice.” Explained Schneider: “I liked the way he threw the ball … It’s hard to get guys that can just spin the football like that out of your head.”

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 8:06 AM PDT reply actions  

On a positive note...

it means the GM might not be a figurehead? Is that a positive note? Uh…

by Chirp on Mar 19, 2010 8:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

I do think Carroll has shown he is a good game time coach

I don’t think USC was ever beaten by a game plan, just out played, (specifically thinking of this year), and the Texas game.

At least we aren't the Raiders?

by Generzal Zod on Mar 19, 2010 9:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

so if it is Schneider doing this he may stay on

and we get a better G.M..

At least we aren't the Raiders?

by Generzal Zod on Mar 19, 2010 9:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

There's nothing in this article that would bring me to the conclusion

that Schneider was the primary advocate of this trade. It’s conjecture from rotoworld – if you read the original article there is no such implication.

by A-Dog on Mar 19, 2010 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

Quote / link?

You’re not referring to this are you?

"The guy most excited about this is John, because he wants to get David Whitehurst’s autograph out of this," joked Seahawks coach Pete Carroll on Thursday, when Whitehurst was in introduced to the Seattle media.

Read more: http://www.thenewstribune.com/2010/03/19/1115507/whitehurst-caught-gms-eye-years.html?storylink=rss#ixzz0idwFx9Kp

by A-Dog on Mar 19, 2010 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

Crap. You're right. I read this thread wrong.

He did say what he said, but it doesn’t prove that Schneider was the primary advocate for the trade.

We can only assume that.

6/14/40. Sweet.

by Nick Andron on Mar 19, 2010 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't call it speculation

the article says that Schneider has liked him and targeted him since 2004.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

I get that it is not absolute, but it's not hard to read between the lines
Kidding aside, Schneider said he first realized Whitehurst’s potential while watching him perform in the wind and the rain in a workout for pro scouts in 2004 at Clemson.

Whitehurst’s workout had Schneider making plans to check out the hard-throwing quarterback again, which he did the next season when Green Bay played a Monday night game at Carolina, going down early to see Clemson play at Wake Forest.

Whitehurst threw for 304 yards, but he also threw two interceptions in the Tigers’ 31-27 loss on Oct. 1, 2005.

"You have to watch quarterbacks live to get a real good feel for them," Schneider said about the game. "And I just liked his swagger. I liked his juice. I liked the way he threw the ball, and I think he’s a guy I’ve always liked. … It’s hard to get guys that can just spin the football like that out of your head."

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

There's nothing there that indicates the move was HIS call

and I certainly don’t think this happens unless Pete Carroll wants it to happen

by A-Dog on Mar 19, 2010 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

Rotoworld wrote: "The Seahawks’ acquisition of QB Charlie Whitehurst appears to have been driven primarily by GM John Schneider."

I do not think that is an unfair opinion after reading the article. It seems like splitting hairs. I’m sure Carroll was on board, but I think Schneider pushed the move.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

The thing that struck me from the presser

was through all the complimentary descriptions both of them gave about Whitehurst, nothing was said about accuracy. Physical attributes and talent, mobility. The throw itself — really mechanics and strength.

But where the ball goes? Accuracy, decision making, the twin paramount attributes of a QB? They weren’t even mentioned.

by jacobstevens on Mar 19, 2010 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

uggh, I cringe when

I hear football personnel use those useless cliches. It reminds me of Mora. Way to sell it though, Schneider.

by Bromosapien on Mar 19, 2010 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

So, can we call Whitehurst

Swagger and Juice now? Is he both Swagger AND Juice, or just one of these?

by Chirp on Mar 19, 2010 8:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

If we call him Juice

Someone will come up with a picture of him wearing leather gloves.
Its inevitable.

by stufr on Mar 19, 2010 8:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

jesus juice

it worked for Micheal Jackson

by Lo Pann on Mar 19, 2010 8:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

Maybe he confused the words swagger and swarthy

he looks to have a lot of that.

At least we aren't the Raiders?

by Generzal Zod on Mar 19, 2010 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

While all of that may look bad on paper

It may just be a small part of the bigger picture that nobody really has any idea about except PC and Co.

by Lo Pann on Mar 19, 2010 8:08 AM PDT reply actions  

It may be

but if someone mugs me I don’t assume they spend the rest of their life building orphanages. Assuming a bunch of bad moves indicate some larger, smarter plan is stretching truth to fit what one wants to be true.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 8:14 AM PDT up reply actions   3 recs

maybe it's me

but I just refuse to get down on Pete Carrol and Co yet.

by Lo Pann on Mar 19, 2010 8:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think I agree with you but...

I need to see Whitehurst as the starter to make an educated opinion. Sitting him for an entire season in favour of a QB we know is not going to be here in 2011 is a ridiculous decision, in my opinion. If he’s worth a 20 spot drop in round 2, a 3rd rounder in 2011and $8-10 million over two years then he has to play.

Look at it this way – if Hasselbeck plays and Seattle wins the NFC West with a 9-7 or 8-8 record then gets bounced in round 1 what have we learned? Nothing. Even worse, if Hasselbeck plays and we go 7-9 or 8-8 and miss the playoffs but they keep him in because they are in the hunt. He still isn’t getting resigned.

by jjhsix on Mar 19, 2010 8:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

I am giveing them more time also

I’m not happy at this point in the process, but I’ll let them go through the draft and into pre-season before I give up. And I won’t really give up, I’ll just know that I need more beer for game day.

by stufr on Mar 19, 2010 8:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

The draft is huge but...

If Whitehurst is sitting week 1 I will lose a lot of faith. I also have some concerns that Hasselbeck (being fiercely competitive) will not be of assistance at all to Whitehurst if he is to be the backup. I see many risks and few rewards to Hasselbeck being on our roster this season.

by jjhsix on Mar 19, 2010 8:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

Hopefully Matt learned something from Dilfer

Dilfer, while competing in his own way, also helped Matt as a second coach to him.

by stufr on Mar 19, 2010 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think Matt is a stand up guy.

Like Warner and Pennington who I think are similar to Matt in intelligence did the right thing he will do the right thing.

At least we aren't the Raiders?

by Generzal Zod on Mar 19, 2010 9:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

Ah, the old orphanage-building mugger thing.

I love it when muggers build orphanages with the money they jacked from me. Hasn’t happened yet, but I think I’d be OK with it.

It’s hard to believe there ISN’T a plan. Is it smart? Maybe not. It’s possible our new GM is going to make some bad decisions before he makes good ones. Some people need time to develop. What’s the average number of years to develop a GM? Oh, they don’t get developmental years? Crap.

by Chirp on Mar 19, 2010 8:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

You are correct, as we decided in the 1950s to move away from institutional orphanages

and towards placement with foster families. Which is typically handled by DHHS.

by waldo rojas on Mar 19, 2010 9:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

If "handled" can be the right word there.

Though that’s a whole other thread.

Also, when churches were no longer allowed to adopt orphans in the U.S., it pretty much killed off those poor Shakers. You know, on account of Shakers being celibate.

by Chirp on Mar 19, 2010 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

I never said the Seahawks lack a plan, only that assuming that bad moves somehow indicate a good plan is illogical.

I have not given up on Carroll. Maybe he struggles in free agency but will kick butt during the draft. Maybe he will win out with total quality, and this will seem like a rough patch, but it worries me that some people seem hostile to negative opinions. It’s not like what I say will determine if Carroll’s moves work or not. If he is setting the team up for failure, it will happen with or without someone to point it out.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 8:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

I appreciate the pragmatic point of view

I have been critical of some of the over emotional, the sky is falling posts. I’m not happy with what we are seeing righ now either, but like you, I have to give them time to show me the full picture. In the end, even if I like the full picture, I might say that this was a bad part of it.

by stufr on Mar 19, 2010 8:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm all for people voicing their opinions if they feel it's wrong and have concerns.

but over the last few days I’ve seen a number of hawk fans say they won’t renew their season tickets or they’ll watch the Browns until PC is fired and I think if that’s what it takes for some fans to give up on Seattle they’ve never seen Tom Flores or Ken Behring.I’m just taking a different approach this time and not be hostile unless things get really bad.

by Lo Pann on Mar 19, 2010 8:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

Fans who threaten to renounce their fandom because a team becomes bad are not fans.

They should be branded with a Yankees decal on their forehead and shunned.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions   3 recs

Completely agree.

I will always love my Seahawks. I just may not love the front office or some of it’s players.

But I will always hope they succeed (assuming they’re not moved out of Seattle by some douchebag asshat).

6/14/40. Sweet.

by Nick Andron on Mar 19, 2010 9:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

But I can become a Lions fan, right?

They have so many Seahawks I feel like we’ve relocated to Detroit!

"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child

by SSreporters on Mar 19, 2010 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yes.

Overpaying once and it paying off does not justify it a second time.

Especially when the first time also included a better acclimation with the talent and the talent itself being much younger.

by MT Olson on Mar 19, 2010 8:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

On the other hand

Sacrificing your emotional health because of incompetent businessmen in the name of fanhood shouldn’t be automatic. To use an extreme example, if we started drafting middle school aerobic gymnasts, I might take a break from the Seahawks for a few years.

I love the Seahawks, but letting my emotions ride on the actions of incompetent strangers is not something I’m willing to do.*

*Does not apply once September rolls around.

by DrunkAmerican on Mar 21, 2010 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

This is why you should separate the Seahawks as a team from the management in your mind

This is how I managed to watch every single game the Mariners played in 2008.

by OlSalty on Mar 22, 2010 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not hostile with negative opinions

I just happen to disagree with many of these ones

by A-Dog on Mar 19, 2010 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well...

I think we got fair value for Tapp
I think if we overpaid for Whitehurst, we only marginally overpaid
I don’t think Seneca’s trade value would have gotten any higher if we’d waited
I don’t think franchising Mare hurt the team in any significant way

Basically, I’m going to assume that the organization knows more about what other teams are willing to pay for our assets and that they made sure there were no better offers to be had before signing off on the deals they did.

by A-Dog on Mar 19, 2010 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

I base it on the following:

1) my own personal assessment of Tapp’s talent and his role in our defense (I think he’s maxed out his limited ability, and lacks the athleticism required to play weakside DE effectively in a cover-2 under system)

2) the fact that no teams were willing to surrender a 2nd round pick by signing him to an offer sheet, meaning he is worth at best a 3rd round pick

3) giving the benefit of the doubt to the Seahawks, and assuming the shopped around for the best deal possible

4) the fact that this is widely considered a deep draft, making the 4th round pick somewhat more valuable than a typical 4th round pick

5) the fact that Philadelphia only gave him $3M guaranteed, has not handed him a starting spot and are moving him to the left side

by A-Dog on Mar 19, 2010 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

But you are comparing Tapp's value to the goofy value teams put on draft picks.

The actual value of a fourth round pick is pretty small. Maybe it’s somewhat greater in a good draft, but that is assuming a lot things. The NFL currently overvalues draft picks, that is why smart teams like New England move picks when the value is correct: See Moss and Welker.

As far as whether Philly will start him, and the contract they signed him to, they weren’t going to spend more than they had to, nor did I think they would announce he will start the second they signed him. It does not represent his actual value. Nor does the pick he was traded for. Randy Moss was once exchanged for a fourth round pick.

The only way we evaluate this move is from what Tapp is worth compared to what Seattle received in exchange. And I don’t see a fourth round pick and a situational pass rusher equaling Tapp.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

Or, to put it another way

Is Seattle now a better team?
Is Philly now a better team?

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

I see this as part of a series of moves

that ultimately will make the Seahawks better, yes.

Improving at RDE is a part of that, IMO. I feel that having an elite talent at that position is critical to the success of our defense (think Simeon Rice, or Dwight Freeney), and although he’s not a bad player, Tapp just doesn’t fit that mold.

We were 30th in the NFL in pass defense last year – it’s certainly not all Tapp’s fault, but I do think we need better production out of his position.

I think Philly is a better team as well – they had a need for depth and competition on their DL and they filled it with a solid player who is unlikely to not meet expectations.

by A-Dog on Mar 19, 2010 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

It was not Tapp's fault at all.

It really is fruitless taking a team’s total defense and using it to evaluate a single player. Seattle’s scoring defense was ranked 17th out of 28 the year Tez won DPOY.

Seattle is not going to be able to have an ideal talent at every position, but moving one player because he is not as good as ideal doesn’t help the overall defense. The team should be improving its on bad players.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't see any reason Tapp can't be as good as Mike Brown

and the Bears achieved a few elite defenses starting Brown at RDE.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

Assuming you mean Alex Brown

IMO Alex Brown has a lot more natural atheticism (speed, explosiveness) than Tapp.

by A-Dog on Mar 19, 2010 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

Brown is quicker

and if you look at his career, Brown has never been a standout player. My point is, I don’t think a team needs a great talent at any specific position to be a great defense.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

Brown ran a 4.65 pre-draft, Tapp a 4.85

Not saying Brown is the better overall player, but he does have a different skillset that may be better suited to the cover-2 under.

Also, the Bears had Mark Anderson (4.61 40) playing situationally (12 sacks in 2006).

I do agree with your point though – it is a team effort up front. We could be equally improved by mebane back to NT and getting a good 3-tech.

by A-Dog on Mar 19, 2010 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

To make this part of the assessment, wouldn't we have to wait

until after the draft, and by your own opinion, 5 years after the draft? I agree with many of your points, but it’s sort of hard to determine, right now, if either of these teams are better.

And, as I believe you have also stated before (though I may be remembering incorrectly,) just because the outcome is good, it doesn’t mean it was a good decision to begin with. Judging a team’s improvement after a trade sounds a bit like determining the value of the pick after it has all played out.

by Chirp on Mar 19, 2010 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Right, but that's based on your own personal valuation of Tapp

I certainly respect your opinion and value your analysis, but it’s still just an opinion. I just don’t see Tapp as being all that valuable, and based on what they are willing to give up for him, other teams don’t seem to either.

by A-Dog on Mar 19, 2010 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

It is a buyers market this year

not justifying or saying I liked it – just saying.

At least we aren't the Raiders?

by Generzal Zod on Mar 19, 2010 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

Not a sellers market?

Seattle was not obligated to trade Tapp. It could have, theoretically, signed him to the same deal Philly did.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

They felt that it was a good move because he was not part of their plans for the future.

so packaged him and got something for him again

not justifying or saying I liked it – just saying

At least we aren't the Raiders?

by Generzal Zod on Mar 19, 2010 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

But see, that's a circular argument

You are defending the decision by saying the FO thought it was the right decision to trade Tapp.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

Saying, "he was not part of their plans" does not justify the move

it only enforces the idea that, yeah, they didn’t value him very highly. But why?

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

no I'm saying I can see their point of view and what their reasoning (as faulty as I think it is)

but that doesn’t mean that I agree with it.
I lost a lot of the hope that I had with the trade. Tapp could have stayed on as a pass rush specialist and been worth more than the 4th that we got.
I think he could have been utilized especially under

At least we aren't the Raiders?

by Generzal Zod on Mar 19, 2010 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

You're right, my valuation of him is lower than most

I’ve just always had a strong desire for elite athleticism at his position, and he’s kind of the opposite of that, being a short, slow overachiever. It’s not so much that I think he’s a bad player, it’s more that I think his position is second only to QB in terms of importance, and therefore we need an impact player there.

by A-Dog on Mar 19, 2010 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well stated.

Thanks for outlining this viewpoint so reasonably.

by lemonverbena on Mar 19, 2010 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

Fortunately for us,

we may be in position to select the top DE on our draft board. And I suspect we do take JPP or Morgan unless a DT falls or maybe a QB falls, though I doubt both those contingencies.

by Misfit74 on Mar 19, 2010 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think the position is Curry's

I bet if we draft a DE he plays the strong side, opposite Curry

by A-Dog on Mar 19, 2010 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure, but likely Morgan or Pierre-Paul.

Perhaps a later draft-pick. We did open a percentage of snaps in trading away Tapp and those have to be filled – I can only speculate how at this point. Depending on how the top-5 shake out, we are in good position to select the #1 rated defensive end in this class. Depending on that outcome, we might draft a player for the vacancy at 14, later than 14, or a player or players already on the team or not yet acquired.

by Misfit74 on Mar 19, 2010 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

I really think John is suited for FS.

He’s cerebral and white so he fits the qualifications.

Oh wait you meant Derrick?

"BANG!" - Jim Lampley's first word as a child

by SSreporters on Mar 19, 2010 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

I like the potential flexibility

of Curry as a DE. It means we don’t HAVE to replace Tapp with a starter, but I’d also be suprised if we didn’t draft a DE with either No.6 or No.14 now

by JamesMurphy on Mar 19, 2010 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'd rather take a risk on Whitehurst then invest 6 years and 35 million on a guy like Clausen

if they don’t believe he has the “it” factor they are looking for. If Clausen sucks we will spend three years trying to figure out if he can be good.

At least we aren't the Raiders?

by Generzal Zod on Mar 19, 2010 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

What else was available?

Delhomme, Anderson, a trade for Clemons or Quinn, hope Tebow drops to 40 and can play in the NFL?

I think a lot of the other moves would be as risky and the trades would have cost as much as Whitehurst.

At least we aren't the Raiders?

by Generzal Zod on Mar 19, 2010 9:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well the team could have always inquired if the Bills would be willing to part with Brian Brohm.

Regardless, on a team that has so many holes to fill there are other ways to better spend resources. When the price got that steep, the team needed to walk away and refocus their efforts elsewhere.

by BrianL on Mar 19, 2010 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

I hadn't considered that

I also like Trent Edwards but what would the cost have been on those two with an “open” competition.

At least we aren't the Raiders?

by Generzal Zod on Mar 19, 2010 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

If it absolutely could not get a quarterback for a fair price, it really had to walk away.

I mean, Hasselbeck may not have a future, but Seattle could start him if they absolutely had to. He’s not dead. The question now is, did Seattle pay a fair price. From an analytical standpoint, I don’t think so, but until I get a good idea of how good Whitehurst is, I can’t say.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

Absolutely.

I’ve been screaming “address the QB situation” as much as anyone, but that doesn’t mean that an overspend is warranted. If this team seemed to be set at just about everywhere but QB, I can understand and could perhaps even agree with overspending. However, the Seahawks are not in that position.

by BrianL on Mar 19, 2010 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

But again, we can't get away from the fact that they jumped the sticker price.

Even if Whitehurst becomes everything Schneider ever dreamt he could be when whiling away a summer day sipping lemonade under a weeping willow, the tender set his price at a 3rd and the only other bidders dropped out.

by abender20 on Mar 19, 2010 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

Not hilarious, smart.

At that point Carroll can say with a straight face that the market for Whitehurst has dried up. Here’s a 4th round pick, take it or leave it.

by BrianL on Mar 19, 2010 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

So what?

The Seahawks can still pull out of negotiations at that point.

by BrianL on Mar 19, 2010 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

You are missing the point

I’m guessing that we signed Whitehurst or at least the offer sheet before AZ signed Anderson. Both AZ and our FO wanted Whitehurst. Anderson was a consolation prize.

by stufr on Mar 19, 2010 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

It actually makes me feel better about the whole thing

Because AZ wanted him more than Anderson too. We weren’t the only FO to see something in this guy.

by stufr on Mar 19, 2010 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

It's only too steep if he's not who they think he is.

That’s a far less cost than a top-6 pick and the contract with it.

by Misfit74 on Mar 19, 2010 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yesterday I scanned through the last few drafts

Looking for mid-to-high-round quarterbacks who were blocked and theoretically would be available. It took about four seconds to find Drew Stanton (Lions). Kevin Kolb (Eagles) is another obvious one who — because he may not actually be blocked much longer — seems to be more expensive.

Point being, even in the “we need a young guy to come in and compete” pigeon-hole, there are options.

Why they tractor-beamed onto Charlie Whitehurst is still a puzzle to me… obviously they saw something they wanted but it looks like an impulse-aisle purchase to me.

by busplunger on Mar 19, 2010 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

This is a QB league

If PC/JS truly believe with their trained eyes that Whitehurst is capable of being a good NFL starter, then it’s worth what they gave up, despite the many holes. And he’s not that expensive if, again, they truly believe that.

by rossco17 on Mar 19, 2010 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sure he wasn't.

But did you like any of the options? Like I said earlier, I’d rather add a player with upside than a more experienced QB that has proven to suck. I suspect Kolb wasn’t available or his price was prohibitive. I"m much more on board with Whitehurst than DA, Delhomme, or Quinn, etc.

Who do you think was a better option?

by Misfit74 on Mar 19, 2010 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

An organization loses credibility if they do stuff like that

we don’t want to hinder our future negotiations (with agents and with other organizations) but going back on an agreement.

Especially when you got your man, and only paid slightly more than the other team was going to pay

by A-Dog on Mar 19, 2010 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

Does a player have to be a rfa to get traded?

If not, we could have been looking at other third stringers to make trades for.

by Bromosapien on Mar 19, 2010 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

A player does not have to be an RFA to be traded

teams trade RFAs because they are about to get expensive.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think Whitehurst is a better option than DA, Kellen Clemens, Quinn, Delhomme, etc.

I’m glad we didn’t go for a reclamation project, but rather an upside player who is unproven but also unproven in a good way. Those guys above have proven to suck.

by Misfit74 on Mar 19, 2010 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

The potential reward difference between Clausen and Whitehurst is realatively low

But as you say, the difference in risk of investment is huge.
And for that reason alone, I am cautiously optimistic.

by stufr on Mar 19, 2010 9:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't agree with that.

Clausen may not fit within the Seahawks system, but his potential is huge. He is probably more developed at running a pro offense at 22 than Whitehurst is at 27. Whitehurst has a few superior tools, but that does not define someone’s upside. He is going to have to show almost unprecedented ability to get up to speed. Even Kurt Warner was playing competitive football, if not NFL football, before breaking out with the Rams. Whitehurst has done nothing but practice for four years.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 9:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

Not even a quarterback?

Honestly, I’m not that knowledgeable about systems, but I would think that if a QB has potential to be really good, you’d adapt and build around him. I wouldn’t pass up a Kurt Warner while waiting for a Tom Brady, or visa versa.

by Jason_D on Mar 19, 2010 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

Talent scarce?

Nah, there are just a lot of different levels of talent.

If you suck and a superstar QB comes along, then I think you have a good exception to General Zod’s axiom. But the Seahawks are at least mediocre, and Clausen is a pipe dream unless you want to package 6 and 14 for him: in that case, he’s a huge gamble by comparison to Whitehurst.

What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the cheerleaders!

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Mar 20, 2010 7:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

What?

There’s no way we would ever package 6 and 14 for Clausen.

by OlSalty on Mar 20, 2010 7:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

Clausen's potential is one of the most argued points about him

Some other pundits have wondered if he is already at his peak.

by stufr on Mar 19, 2010 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

No it just means that his physical peak is lower than some

I think I hit mine at about age 19-20. Its been down hill since then.
Its tough to determine for QBs because intelligence and game smarts have so much to do with success.

by stufr on Mar 19, 2010 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

If his arm is as good or better than Drew Brees

than I can’t see an argument that his potential is limited by his tools. He’s not Tim Rattay.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

I wasn't meaning that he had peaked

I don’t know. I do know that is some of the concern out there.
How do you compare his arm to Brees? I haven’t heard that one yet.

by stufr on Mar 19, 2010 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

Tools do not appear to be the problem with Whitehurst

He’s mobile, athletic, can chuck it, but can he manage a game? Read defenses? Make the right decisions? Who knows.

by B.B.Finnegan on Mar 19, 2010 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

The knock on Whitehurst

according to the scouting reports I’ve seen is that he needs to get better at reading defenses and making decisions. Coaching and experience can help him improve on those things, but he’s probably not going to get taller, faster, or stronger. People also seem to like his makeup – by most accounts he’s a tough, poised leader. Plus he has glorious hair.

by A-Dog on Mar 19, 2010 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

Unforuntately, reading defense is a lot more important than being tall, fast and strong.

And he’s nearing 28. It’s not like reading a defense is something that just happens with experience. It’s essentially the defining skill of being a quarterback.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

Agree

I was hoping ‘decision making’ was not part of the bad when it came to Whitehurst. I think it’s definitely the first thing that should be looked at.

by rossco17 on Mar 19, 2010 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

I categorically disagree

Reading a defense is not an inate skill. It is taught and learned from experience. On the bench and in the film room he has had an oppourtunity to learn from the bench. He hasn’t gotten much experience to develop it though.

by stufr on Mar 19, 2010 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

You saying that
It’s not like reading a defense is something that just happens with experience.

by stufr on Mar 19, 2010 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

It's inbetween what both of you are saying.

No one is born with the ability. No one will ever set foot onto a football field for the very first time and suddenly be able to read defenses like a pro.

But arguing that experience teaches this is false, as well. Many QBs have never grasped it (even after years of in-game experience) and thus were never effective at reading defenses.

6/14/40. Sweet.

by Nick Andron on Mar 19, 2010 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

I absolutely do not share this opinion:

…he (Clausen) is probably more developed at running a pro offense at 22 than Whitehurst is at 27.

And we can’t assume he’ll be there at 6, either.

by Misfit74 on Mar 19, 2010 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

Argh

Seattle traded for a third-string quarterback with some tools, and almost no pro experience. If he ever turns into a starter, we should be thrilled. I don’t see why people need to buy into the idea that every decision is going to transform this franchise. Whitehurst is not on par with a top ten quarterback prospect. It does not damn the move to accept that. This can work out without Whitehurst turning into a great quarterback. The dude is nearly 28, what possible evidence does anyone have that he is somehow special, or more valuable than a top ten pick, or even likely to develop? I mean, come on, half the people posting did not even know who Whitehurst was two weeks ago, and now want to argue me to the bitter death that he has more potential than Sam Bradford or Jimmy Clausen.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't see that argument being made at all

Bradford won’t be available so that comparison is moot. Clausen may not be either, but even if he was he has arguably the same potential for success. And though we supposedly “overspent” on this enigma with almost no pro experience, spending the sixth overall pick in a deep draft is a much bigger allocation of resources.

I’m not saying I know Whitehurst is special. But I do believe he has roughly the same potential as another QB available to Seattle in the draft.

by lemonverbena on Mar 19, 2010 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

He doesn't even have that.

His potential, realistically, is to maybe become a starter. Even Schneider acknowledged that the team could still draft a quarterback at six.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

An older player, that will never regain the experience lost, simply does not have more potential than a younger player

that could start at a younger age and develop further before his body begins to decline. The ultimate, ultimate value possible with Whitehurst is probably Kurt Warner, and Warner had five to six productive seasons in his entire career.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

True, four years makes a big difference

Which makes comparing his potential to the potential of a first round pick seem even more ridiculous.

by B.B.Finnegan on Mar 19, 2010 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

So, out of curiosity,

Does this mean that a quarterback should be started the year they are drafted in order to maximize experience, like Matt Stafford?

Would sitting a QB for a few years, like Aaron Rodgers, in some way reduce the potential that QB has for potential?

by Chirp on Mar 19, 2010 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

There is no one way to develop a quarterback

but game experience is irreplaceable. It helps having a good team. If I had one very, very positive thing to say about this move, it is that Whitehurst will likely have a much softer landing than whatever quarterback Seattle could select in the first round. Having a top ten pick to get a great offensive weapon, or stud defender, helps the team and that helps the quarterback. Shoot, look how far Sanchez got protecting a lead? Tarvaris Jackson. Rex Grossman. Trent Dilfer. The less that is asked of a quarterback, the lower the standard for busting.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

That does not make any sense.

Clausen, a player you yourself do not think will be available at six, has an equal chance of success as a nearly 28 year old quarterback that has struggled in the preseason, and has almost no regular season experience.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes.

There are differing ways to view Whitehurst’s age and experience. You devalue it as mileage, lost time and lack of counting stats. I see it as an advantage over any rookie available to Seattle in the 2010 draft. An advantage that came with a cheaper price and that freed up resources for other areas.

by lemonverbena on Mar 19, 2010 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

What is that advantage?

What about him being older will help him play better?

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'll take this one

He has spent the last 3 years in the NFL, learning a pro playbook, studying under one of the top offensive mind in the league (Norv Turner) and watching one of its best young QBs day in day out.

One of the top college prospects has spent no time in the NFL, and has learned a college playbook and theoretically going to academic classes and keggers.

A 28 year old, who’s already made some money in the league, should be less likely to be derailed by off-the-field issues having avoided them to this point.

With age comes paitence and perspective: maturity.

This is all not to say that Whitehurst will be better in 2010 than, say, Clausen but there are some advantages to being older.

by Keasley on Mar 19, 2010 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Clausen used Charlie Weiss's playbook

Which has to be as close to a pro playbook as a possible at the college level.

[DELETED ZOMG NO POLITICS]

by bluemax on Mar 19, 2010 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

If Clausen ends ups playing 2-3 years after he's drafted this year

He’ll be ahead of Charlie Whitehurst by a mile @ age 27.

6/14/40. Sweet.

by Nick Andron on Mar 19, 2010 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

He'll be able to play around 5 years longer, in theory, than CW.

But I don’t think we know how developed CW is right now.

Perhaps CW steps in and performs like Rodgers or Matt Ryan did early in their careers as starters? There is little if anything to show that he will or he won’t. What do we fans have to go on? Even if you utilize CW’s preseason stats as evidence (which I think we should not weigh hardly at all. pre-season stats are what they are) it’s not enough to evaluate him. We need more info.

We can say w/ certainty that Clausen, if available, would have several more seasons as a starter because of his youth, but that’s it. If he’s unavailable at 6 or we draft him, then a lot changes. We can’t know right now.

by Misfit74 on Mar 19, 2010 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Same here.

The same ‘possible evidence’ that Bradford or Clausen have is only slightly less than the evidence we have about Whitehurst, depending on how you weight CW’s 197 preseason attempts over 4 seasons. Sitting behind Rivers does not condemn him as less of a talent than Bradford or Clausen. He may be less talented, but he’s not a rookie strapped with a zillion-dollar contract, either. You say ‘what possible evidence’ regarding Whitehurst, but you have to say the same about Bradford or Clausen if you are using that context.

by Misfit74 on Mar 19, 2010 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't put much stock in his pre-season numbers.

There are plenty of pre-season stars that don’t even make teams or rise the depth chart.

by Misfit74 on Mar 19, 2010 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

I should have said first *full* season

This should be about experience, not preseason games

by rossco17 on Mar 19, 2010 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

I've gone and gotten confused about what you're arguing

You say CW’s preseason’s number suck. I’m saying fine, but who cares – it doesn’t mean much. And you’re saying you believe they are predictive of a crap QB? really?

by rossco17 on Mar 19, 2010 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not ignoring (or maybe I am)

But it’s such a small speck of evidence (littered with questions about surrounding preseason players which means tons in football) that I don’t think one should take much from it.

I don’t expect CW to be special either. Frankly, i don’t know what to expect. But I want to be fair and reserve judgement until we have something to go on.

by rossco17 on Mar 19, 2010 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Let's see, I'll start.

Aaron Rodgers, good in the preseason.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Jim Sorgi?

Good in preseason (and meaningless week 16 and 17 games…)

his page

by Misfit74 on Mar 19, 2010 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

I looked at Cutler, Leinart, Young, Flacco, Henne and Rodgers

and only Henne failed to surpass Whitehurst’s best preseason quarterback rating. And even Henne had two seasons comparable to Whitehurst’s best. Sadly, a sack prone quarterback like Whitehurst would benefit from Qb rating. I want Whitehurst to turn into something special, but I think it’s clear that is a long shot.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

Backwards I would say.

Find a QB who played POORLY in multiple preseasons, and then went on to be good.

by Kryten on Mar 19, 2010 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Exactly.

The level of competition in preseason is LOWER than in the regular season. That’s why bad quarterbacks can put up good preseason numbers, and then fail in actual games. Being awful in the preseason is a bad, bad sign.

by Simon Phoenix on Mar 19, 2010 7:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's garbage for the most part, but it just allowed me to scan and go

It’s garbage because it is highly fallible, but it’s very hard to have a good game and a bad qb rating. Now, it’s possible to have a bad game and a good qb rating, but I was looking for a minimum standard of performance. And if you have a bad qb rating, you probably had a shitty game.

Maybe some of the quarterbacks had an empty qb rating throughout the preseason. That is possible, but I was taking like five seconds to make a point.

Yes, the preseason is not infallible, but why would we think a good quarterback would fail to play well in the preseason? It’s not like they are working on their cutter. The coach wants a quarterback to execute in the preseason too. I mean, there isn’t a incomplete, or a interception play. Whitehurst was third string, so he had every reason to play well. That he played poorly is not conclusive, but it does provide some evidence of incompetence.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Some evidence, sure.

I still wonder how many starters he played with, how many game-plans? He played zero full games in the preseason. Did he ever have a chance to play consecutive quarters or halves at a time? Could he ever play continuously enough to develop a rapport with receivers and blockers and find a passing rhythm?

We, as fans, have extremely little to go on other than his background, situation over the past few seasons, and some YouTube college film clips – perhaps others have more or will get more.

The evidence you suggest isn’t enough evidence. I’m becoming resigned to the fact that we don’t have enough to praise or condemn our new QB.

by Misfit74 on Mar 19, 2010 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Are you kidding me?

Seattle would get to draft a player at six and get Clausen? Yeah, I think they would do that.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Heh, nice catch.

I guess we’d have to judge that hypothetical on the value given for Whitehurst subtracted from the #6 pick and decide about a deal like that (if Clausen was available, which I think he won’t be anyway). That’s getting crazy…or I am.

Although I don’t think it’s the case, CW could be a backup to a rookie drafted, but my belief is that both QBs will be gone. That would put us in a very tough spot. I think that will reveal itself to be a key factor in why we did this move, speculative as it is.

We’d also have to consider the cost of a trade-up to ensure getting a QB vs. adding Whitehurst. We don’t have all the facts in yet. I still like the Whitehurst move.

by Misfit74 on Mar 19, 2010 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

And there's the thing

I think the Whitehurst move can pay off. I think he has potential. I think Seattle overpaid a little, but that it isn’t the end of the world, but I do not get this rush to defend a player none of us know much about, and what little information we have is mostly negative. I am fine with waiting and seeing on Whitehurst, but we have to be realistic.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

You make sense here, and I understand what you're saying.

I think the perceived ‘rush to defend’ is in part due to the ‘rush to discredit’ the move by those pointing out the negatives or condemning the move and/or the player.

by Misfit74 on Mar 19, 2010 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Excellent points, both of you.

I think that’s pretty much what it all boils down to right now.

by B.B.Finnegan on Mar 19, 2010 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Geesh, this is getting tough to read

Is the sky falling or not?

We are not really going to know until we see soem action. Everything being discussed is on paper and some “facts” seem to be created. Somehow people know how these players are going to perform on the team before it even happens. Let the team take the field and see how they perform – both the players, the coach, and he front office. None of this can be truly evaluated at this moment.

My gut doesn’t like the moves either, but I certainly don’t know anything about how this will play out.

by Sonic Boom on Mar 19, 2010 8:22 AM PDT reply actions  

You made the big time

This article showed up on google news. Very balanced and fair article I think.
I think we should reserve most of the judgement on the Whitehurst trade until we see what he can do. We know at least one other team was interested, so trading the equivalent of the 2-32 pick isn’t terrible. If he turns out well, then it looks great. GM’s are paid to make these tough decisions, and we can only hope his eye for talent is better than all the info we have available to us.

by ColumbiaRob on Mar 19, 2010 8:23 AM PDT reply actions  

I think this was a very level headed assessment

Also, I wonder how exactly a player gets barred from offseason workouts? Do they send him a text message.

“O hay btw dnt sho up a vmac, u b7ed”

Or does he just show up and the security guy has his photo and doesn’t let him enter. Preferably a security guy larger then Rob Simms.

by B.B.Finnegan on Mar 19, 2010 8:53 AM PDT reply actions  

On the positive side, or to put a positive spin on the Whitehurst deal

While we were purported to be in the market for a 1st round QB, we were unlikely suitors for trading down. Now, with Surfer Jesus in the fold and Cleveland a potential landing spot for Clausen, we could be viewed as a good trading partner for the Bills, among others. Trading down becomes more plausible and that gets us more picks. I could also definitely see us waiting to pull off a draft day deal for Marshall, using a later 1st round pick after trading down a couple times.

by diehard82 on Mar 19, 2010 9:04 AM PDT reply actions  

At this point, I'm kinda hoping we deal for Marshall.

Even if it requires our #14 pick. We’ve got a new QB in town, let’s surround him with elite offensive talent to soften his fall into an NFL starting position.

Trade the 14 down to get Charles Brown, and our line should be OK, our running game OK, and our passing game great, in theory (Housh, Marshall, Branch, Carlson).

Maybe this is stupid. But if you’re going to go all in, let’s go all in.

6/14/40. Sweet.

by Nick Andron on Mar 19, 2010 9:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

that's what I am hoping for

McCoy and Mebane makes me a lot more hopeful for next year.

At least we aren't the Raiders?

by Generzal Zod on Mar 19, 2010 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

Funny though, if Seattle takes McCoy, I would assume they are running a 4-3

but if it’s running a 4-3, why let go of Tapp? If the team is running a 3-4, I’m not sure how McCoy fits.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

John, I have to believe Tapp didn't fit their plans

because that’s the only justification I can imagine that somewhat justifies moving him the way they did. Perhaps they see Curry as a liability at OLB in terms of talent and dollars, and not being able to cut or deal him, are trying to make lemonade by using him in the elephant role opposite Jackson/Redding. That would make Tapp somewhat expendable.

by diehard82 on Mar 19, 2010 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

Point taken: he's expendable.

People are more upset about what the Hawks received for him (or didn’t receive, rather)

6/14/40. Sweet.

by Nick Andron on Mar 19, 2010 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

I do have an issue with that

his being traded doesn’t make me worry about his ability to evaluate talent.

At least we aren't the Raiders?

by Generzal Zod on Mar 19, 2010 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

I really don't know what to make of the Tapp deal

Initially it seemed they were high on him. Despite what Tapp says, he had to know beforehand he was going to the Eagles. They had a contract set to go (which he had to be willing to agree to), he signed the tender not to come to camp as we all thought, or as was reported, but so that he could get traded. He knew beforehand, I’m not buying that it was a shock. I’ll buy that it may have been a shock a few weeks ago.

My guess is Carroll just didn’t want to retain Tapp because they didn’t want to pay him a lot for what they saw as a sub-elite DE, so they got what they could (4th pick) before he leaves next year. This will depend of course on how much the Eagles paid for him.

Still, if they’d have kept him they’d of had him for cheap (1.2mil) for one more year. Plus, who’s going to replace him? Who are we going to have when Kearney gets injured again?

by B.B.Finnegan on Mar 19, 2010 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

He may have wanted out

After the treatment he got from out front office, I don’t think I could blame him.

At least we aren't the Raiders?

by Generzal Zod on Mar 19, 2010 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

Tapp said he was surprised he was traded

he said he thought they had plans for him and that Pete was doing good stuff

by Lo Pann on Mar 19, 2010 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

It's funny that you'd make this argument after the beating routinely handed to Josh McDaniels for his handling of players.

If Tapp wanted out because the front office treated him poorly then the front office is at fault for mistreating him in the first place. Running a good young player out of town for no apparent reasonis despicable.

by abender20 on Mar 19, 2010 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

it is what they do

and it is all speculation.
Systems change and if he is not part of their plans it is hard to take that personally. Tapp was not treated well by Mora last year. If something put a bad taste in his mouth it would have been the past

At least we aren't the Raiders?

by Generzal Zod on Mar 19, 2010 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

Brian was referring to
Tapp was not treated well by Mora last year. If something put a bad taste in his mouth it would have been the past

by abender20 on Mar 19, 2010 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

didn't he not start based on the money Jackson was being paid?

and he had to work his way to back into the starting rotation where he out performed him.

That is what I am basing that comment on and that it would make me want to leave.

At least we aren't the Raiders?

by Generzal Zod on Mar 19, 2010 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well, he married a Seattle girl

and never struck me as unhappy. I’m sure he’s ready to start for a better team after being buried on an inferior team, but we shouldn’t assume that Tapp wanted out. He described the trade as “bittersweet”.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

He also claimed the trade took him by surprise.

And then hammered out a contract so fast, it’s hard to believe he hadn’t already talked to the Eagles about it. Though, fast contracts CAN happen, so it’s not a given.

by Chirp on Mar 19, 2010 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

You are Darryl Tapp

You have played football for four years on a rookie contract. Suddenly, in one day, you are traded and offered a huge pay raise and job security. It’s entirely possible you get off that plane and say “Yes, I will play football for several million dollars.”

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

True.

But then wouldn’t his agent need to look it over and make sure it doesn’t have anything in there like, "You must play wearing a Nuclear Cabbage tutu and will be docked $100,000 per game for this travesty. However, if you sing, “I’m a little teapot,” while wearing said tutu, we will siphon $20,000 per game back to you in skittles and sprite."

That’s all. Yes, the player has to jump on it. But if he’s got an agent worth paying, they’ve got to look it over and make sure it is standard and sounds good.

by Chirp on Mar 19, 2010 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

I never said Hawks should extend an offer sheet to Marshall and give up the 6th

I’m sure Denver would trade Marshall to us for the 14th, straight across.

6/14/40. Sweet.

by Nick Andron on Mar 19, 2010 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

At this point, I wouldn't.

Give Whitehurst the tools he needs.

And if Whitehurst doesn’t pan out, we can always trade Marshall, while in his prime, for picks or players. He’s proven talent whereas a #14 pick could completely bust (and cost a boatload of money).

Then again, Carroll & Co. have proven they’re unable to set a hard bargain when trading players away.

6/14/40. Sweet.

by Nick Andron on Mar 19, 2010 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'd just rather trade back out of 14 to get more picks

Then sign the offer sheet and give them something in the 20s

by stufr on Mar 19, 2010 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

Offer sheet = team's original round pick, unless they don't have one.

So we’d have to trade out of our #6.

Or offer the trade on draft day, after we drafted someone @ 6.

6/14/40. Sweet.

by Nick Andron on Mar 19, 2010 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

I could see a draft-day trade w/ Denver.

I agree when you say give Whitehurst the tools he needs. Hey, at least he has the arm to hit Butler past 15 yards. God I hope he wins the job to start the season.

by Misfit74 on Mar 19, 2010 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Same here. I'm excited to see a 50 yard pass again.

Complete or incomplete.

It’s been many years since I’ve seen that attempted by a Hawks QB :P

6/14/40. Sweet.

by Nick Andron on Mar 19, 2010 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Run to the podium??

It must be like three thousand miles away!

by Kryten on Mar 20, 2010 6:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't know

I just hope the air is thin enough to give us Marshall for the 60th pick ,a bag of Skittles and an Ichiro bobble head.

by Lo Pann on Mar 19, 2010 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

McD did trade a 1st rounder for a nickel corner

so you never know. The closer we get to the draft the more desparate he may get.

by diehard82 on Mar 19, 2010 9:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

Things could be way worse right now

People predicted Denver wouldn’t win 5 games and they played the same as they did the previous two years. I have to hope that after Carroll stops this liquidation and brings in his guys that these types of moves won’t be common.

At least we aren't the Raiders?

by Generzal Zod on Mar 19, 2010 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

which is better than what Denver has had

driving people out based on McDaniels cancerous personality.

At least we aren't the Raiders?

by Generzal Zod on Mar 19, 2010 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

Not me

I’d love McCoy at #6 and Anthony Davis or Trent Williams at #14

by rossco17 on Mar 19, 2010 9:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'd love McCoy at 6 also, and as unlikely as it seems, is possible

but I’d rather trade down a little from 14 to take Brown. An additional 3rd rounder could be Montario Hardesty or a new SS.

by diehard82 on Mar 19, 2010 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

it's looking more and more likely

Kind of depends on Detroit, IMO. Seems likely they go OT to give Stafford more time to throw the ball. In that case McCoy falls to us because TB seems to be enamored with Suh. I guess KC’s pick is a big determinant as well, but many argued that they’re locked in on Berry or an OT.

by rossco17 on Mar 19, 2010 9:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

KC could use Suh in their 3-4, but I don't think McCoy fits as well

so if the Rams take Bradford, Okung does go to Detroit and TB opts for Suh, then McCoy falling to us becomes possible.

by diehard82 on Mar 19, 2010 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

I agree with this.

McCoy could fall to us based on the needs of teams picking ahead of us. I see three teams who might go defensive tackle: St. Louis, Detroit and Tampa Bay. St. Louis will probably go QB. I think Tampa Takes a DT if one is available. Which leaves us with Detroit. If they take anything but defensive tackle, we’ve got a shot.

Teams can always trade up, though, into one of those other spots in the top 5.

by Chirp on Mar 19, 2010 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree.

But I don’t see many trades happening— except perhaps in the following case:
if Detroit takes Suh, the ‘Skins will decide between Okung and Clausen… If they pick Okung, KC may swap back to 7 and Holmgren will grab Clausen. That still leaves KC with Bulaga or Berry, whichever we don’t take. I think we’d take Berry in that scenario and KC would get a highly rated OT at #7.

However, in that scenario, it’s possible that WE could make a reasonable offer to swap one spot with KC (and take Clausen). Maybe that 4th we got for Tapp. KC is still assured of Berry (if they really like him), Bulaga, or another trade down. But I still think Washington takes Clausen, so I don’t see any trades happening in the first 5.

If Detroit does take Okung— which is very possible, Washington most likely takes Clausen and KC takes either Bulaga or Berry.
We’d then end up with McCoy.

by Kryten on Mar 19, 2010 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

None of these scenarios

appear to account for the fact that there is a third pick in the draft which belongs to Tampa Bay.

by busplunger on Mar 20, 2010 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

I guess maybe you were implying that if Detroit takes Okung

Tampa takes Suh? Yes, I guess that makes sense.

Incidentally, if Suh and McCoy are as good as everybody thinks they are, it seems like the no-brainer moves for Detroit and Tampa, respectively, are to draft Suh and McCoy. I’m having a hard time imagining any scenario where those guys don’t go 1-2-3. It could happen I guess…

by busplunger on Mar 20, 2010 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

I agree.

 This is how I see it right now, with Suh and McCoy possibly flip-flopped. Berry could go to KC, allowing us to choose between the top rater player at either OT or DE. I think we need to build our lines, but I wouldn’t jump off a bridge if we took Berry, if available, and got an offensive tackle later.

1. St. Louis Rams – QB Sam Bradford, Oklahoma
2. Detroit Lions – DT Ndamukong Suh, Nebraska
3. Tampa Bay Buccaneers – DT Gerald McCoy, Oklahoma
4. Washington Redskins – QB Jimmy Clausen, Notre Dame
5. Kansas City Chiefs – OT Russell Okung or S Eric Berry, Tennessee
6. Seattle Seahawks – Pierre-Paul, D.Morgan, Okung, or Berry

by Misfit74 on Mar 20, 2010 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

That's what so good about getting McCoy (big if)...

He’s nearly interchangeable with Suh. It’s like either one is the best DT to come out in years— but there are two of them.

I think at 6 Okung and Berry are the hot value. Morgan just might make it to #14.

by Kryten on Mar 20, 2010 6:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Two DE's on your list.

Oh joy. Trade a solid DE just getting into his prime for one that will be there 3-4 years from now. Sweet.

Ugh. To be honest at this point, I hope we trade down.

Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.

by whiskey chainsaw on Mar 21, 2010 1:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

If there's a bright side to all of this

The entire league was taken aback with this trade. Needless to say, it was a very risky trade. If Whitehurst crashes and burns, I have a hard time seeing Carroll and Schneider staying employed with the Seahawks after such a fuckup.

And that scenario is actually quite palatable. I’d almost rather have an utterly awful FO that hastens their exit through a year of horrifyingly bad moves than have a so-so FO that lulls the Hawks into Mediocrity suck for 4 or 5 years.

6/14/40. Sweet.

by Nick Andron on Mar 19, 2010 9:05 AM PDT reply actions  

I've definitely come to terms with the Whitehurst trade

It’s maybe a little unfair to suggest that Seattle got fleeced in giving up more than the original tender without mentioning that they were unable to offer the original tender. San Diego tendered him for a 3rd and Seattle didn’t have a 3rd. And that’ s because Tim Ruskell traded it to move up for Deon Butler. I see alot of ‘good’ in Whitehurst:

*He appears to be a guy our GM has liked for a long time, not just some random Joe they selected to fill a need.

*He is coming from the #1 passing offfense in the league. Of course, he didn’t contribute to that, but if there’s such a thing as ‘football osmosis’ than it’s added value in Whitehurst’s case. It’s kinda like having Led Zeppelin’s guitar tech joining your band. He might not have written Stairway to Heaven but he does have pedigree.

*Speaking of Pedigree, his dad was an NFL player (who I know nothing about).

Not much else to like in the writeup above (well the writing is fine, but the FO moves are not). I think we might be crying in our beers about Tapp for years. I can only figure that our new Oline coach hates Rob Sims for some reason because otherwise it’s totally inexplicable that we mishandle his situation to such a degree. Actually, we’re mishandling the Sims situation no matter what our oline coach thinks of him. Deon Grant definitely had a place on the team in uncapped 2010.

I want our new braintrust to put their stamp on the team. I don’t mind them cleaning house. But Tapp, Grant, and Rob Sims were actually 3 of our more steady performers last year. BAH!

by Keasley on Mar 19, 2010 9:17 AM PDT reply actions  

Who did then? The Jonas Brothers?

Jimmy Page most certainly did write Stairway To Heaven. He wrote the music anyway. Robert Plant wrote the lyrics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stairway_to_Heaven

by Keasley on Mar 19, 2010 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

Youtube blocked at work

So I’ll need to check out that Spirit song later. The wikipedia entry does touch on the plagarism claim but nothing has ever been proven in court (unlike Whole Lotta Love which Willie Dixon wrote and successfully sued Zep for plagarism) and the songwriting credit still belongs to Page/Plant. Of course, there’s more to Stairway than just the intro anyway.

I stand behind my Charlie Whitehurst-Led Zeppelin guitar tech flimsy analogy 100%!

by Keasley on Mar 19, 2010 10:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

I was just making a joke, I don't really want to argue about the origin of Led Zeppelin songs

There’s nothing wrong with your guitar analogy. Now if only you could’ve worked Craig Terrill in there somewhere.

by B.B.Finnegan on Mar 19, 2010 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

We could also get Clausen in the first round by trading back

He has the potential for a major free fall.

At least we aren't the Raiders?

by Generzal Zod on Mar 19, 2010 9:34 AM PDT reply actions  

It's possible.

But QB’s are so highly sought after, I tend to think somebody would grab him, or trade up for him, in the top 10-12 or so.

by Chirp on Mar 19, 2010 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Great write up John

The analogy that keeps coming into my head is playing poker. If I see a player keep moving all in with marginal hands, I don’t think that he is a great poker player no matter the outcome of the hand. Just because they might get lucky and beat hands that have better odds at the start of the hand doesn’t make it a good move. Getting a good outcome from a bad process is more dumb luck than actual skill. I’m not saying that the Seahawks have been moving all in with these moves, but if these moves don’t work out the Seahawks will not be in good shape for the next couple of years. I will always have hope in the Seahawks, and I hope that the Q/PM will be able to translate these moves to good things for the Hawks and have a great draft.

Does anyone else wonder how much influence Gus Bradley had over the Tapp trade? It seems like he would know better than anyone how good Tapp could be. It would be very strange if Bradley did not have any say in who he wanted on his defense.

by seattle_since_81 on Mar 19, 2010 10:06 AM PDT reply actions  

I figured it out.

Schneider was a part of getting and keeping Aaron Rodgers. Rodgers claimed that Tapp bit him. It’s simple.

by abender20 on Mar 19, 2010 10:13 AM PDT reply actions  

that must be it!

At least we aren't the Raiders?

by Generzal Zod on Mar 19, 2010 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

so that begs the question

what did Whitehurst do?

At least we aren't the Raiders?

by Generzal Zod on Mar 19, 2010 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yes.

For both of our firsts, our first next year, and Mercer Island.

by abender20 on Mar 19, 2010 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

Idiots!

I really thought we could have kept that and given them Bainbridge instead. This organization is lost.

At least we aren't the Raiders?

by Generzal Zod on Mar 19, 2010 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

I agree with the start of this article, and it echoes a couple things I have reconciled:

How long will it be until Charlie Whitehurst, Seattle’s new QB, takes Matt Hasselbeck’s job? Because beyond the money that Whitehurst will be paid over the next two seasons, NFL teams don’t give away draft picks — and move back 20 spots in the second round — to bring in backups.

Instead, they make those deals and spend those valuable picks to upgrade their roster — especially when there’s a new head coach in Pete Carroll. This entire roster will be turned over in the next two years, and it’s starting at the QB position.

by Misfit74 on Mar 19, 2010 11:08 AM PDT reply actions  

Wait we signed Tom "The Bomb" Malone?

I totally missed that one. It is not often that a Punter gets a nickname, or even a mock Heisman campaign, but Malone got both while at USC.

[DELETED ZOMG NO POLITICS]

by bluemax on Mar 19, 2010 11:57 AM PDT reply actions  

Another way of looking at this

that may already have been covered somwehere on FG (apologies if so – it’s been difficult keeping up with the 000’s of comments over the last week!).

We started with Hasselbeck and Seneca. We now have Hasselbeck and Whitehurst. I’m not sure of the differences in contracts for the two QBs, but upfront we’ve paid 20 spots in the second round and a 2011 3rd rounder less the 2010 7th round received for Seneca.

Is Whitehurst’s upside over Seneca worth the price?

by JamesMurphy on Mar 19, 2010 1:11 PM PDT reply actions  

To quantify that you realize that not only is the position upgraded, but you've moved on from having Seneca Wallace on the roster

One of the arguments I’ve seen repeated is that the Carroll/Schneider got fleeced by Holmgren and that we should have held onto Wallace to get more value. But then you’re muddying up the QB position. They made a value judgement and decision to rid themselves of Wallace so they could target a backup with starting potential. Wallace would have just been taking roster space and snaps from someone with the potential to contribute in the future. Now Whitey can back up/challenge/mentor under Hass, and Teel can compete with whatever young prospect is brought in.

by lemonverbena on Mar 19, 2010 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Interesting comments from San Diego's GM about how the Whitehurst deal came together:

From Don Banks at cnnsi:

“We just fell into it,” Smith said of the trade talks that emerged after San Diego tendered Whitehurst, a restricted free agent, at a third-round level (his original draft slot). "We tendered a third, at a $1.1 million (salary) this year, [thinking] if he returns to us this year, we’ll have the same rock and roll band again this season with Rivers, Volek and Whitehurst.

“But now here comes the activity, and it’s between Arizona, which had a standard third-round pick, and Seattle. But there’s a little bit of a twist because the Seahawks didn’t have a three. So I presented a package to them that I thought was attractive to us, and it’s accepted. They wanted the player. And that’s how it went down.”

I hope he’s oversimplifying, because he’s basically saying that he opened with the offer of swapping 2nd round picks and getting Seattle’s 2011 3rd rounder, and Carroll and Schneider agreed with no negotiation.

by sev79 on Mar 19, 2010 1:49 PM PDT reply actions  

It does sound like that

and I wonder to what degree Carroll/Schneider are trying to be “honest brokers” and be fair to their new front office peers in their first few moves. But even if they had chiseled away at the Chargers offer, I don’t see why AJ Smith would’ve moved off his proposal that much for it to be a big difference. San Diego had the leverage.

by lemonverbena on Mar 19, 2010 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh come on.

“Honest brokers?” “Suckers?” Schneider being taken for a ride does not improve the Seahawks standing.

by John Morgan on Mar 19, 2010 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

No way to know that.

Saying “that’s how negotiation works” doesn’t mean he would have happily taken less. We just don’t know what AJ Smith was thinking. There isn’t a certainly quantifiable way to say the move is inherently “bad”, and arguments based on that kind of absolutism aren’t logical.

by lemonverbena on Mar 19, 2010 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, if he doesn't move you can walk away...

…but don’t walk into the used car lot and pay the price on the sticker.

by sev79 on Mar 19, 2010 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's the draft :)

Oh god, I hope they bone up on their negotiation skills before it’s time to sign the new draft picks to contracts.

by sev79 on Mar 19, 2010 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's inherently flawed to argue that we know for sure that is what happened.

AJ Smith is an egomaniac control freak, and the things he tells the media are very calculated. It could be that our Q/PM felt the offer was fair and took it, and in your OPINION that was an overspend. It could also be that Carroll/Schneider did float a lesser package and Smith turned it down out of hand, because he was fine with keeping Whitehurst. But we don’t know either way. To make absolute judgements based on the “knowledge” that the Seahawks didn’t even consider other angles isn’t logically sound.

by lemonverbena on Mar 19, 2010 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

I didn't claim any sure knowledge of other offers or lack thereof.

And yes, saying for sure that Smith would move from his initial offer is unknowable.

As I said in the original post, I hope Smith was oversimplifying, because it sounds like he’s saying there was no negotiation. I hope that’s inaccurate and Carroll/Schneider tried to get a better deal and couldn’t.

It’s certainly a matter of opinion whether the deal is fair or not. Q/PM apparently thought it was. Most of us don’t. Regardless though, it’s not really a matter of opinion whether it’s a good idea to try to negotiate — it’s always a good idea, and I think that’s the main point both myself and John are making.

by sev79 on Mar 19, 2010 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wasn't replying directly to you

But regardless, I do agree that negotiating to get the best price is important, and I would hope that our Q/PM aren’t getting less value in an effort to play nice because they’re the new kids in class. But we don’t know that this is the case or that AJ Smith is just trying to make himself look brilliant, as he is wont to do. And though Clark Judge and many others are saying we spent too much for a 3rd-stringer, that isn’t an absolute value either. Everyone said that about trading up to get Lofa and about any number of other trades that so-called experts and writers derided at the time.

I’m just having a big problem with arguments that start with: “X was a bad move” or “Q/PM didn’t get fair value for X player”, and that therefore the new front office is incompetent. You can’t quantify bad moves or fair value with any kind of certainty or point chart. We aren’t privy to the inside machinations of the NFL trade market. So ours are very subjective opinions, and some are making highly critical pronouncements based on those opinions as if they were fact.

by lemonverbena on Mar 19, 2010 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Right, I'm not sure how hard Smith would have stuck to that offer...

…but since the general consensus is that Seattle overpaid, I would hope that they at least tried to get a low-round pick in return to help balance things out before giving up — something minor but not insubstantial like a 5th round pick coming from San Diego to help even things out a bit.

Negotiation is an important part of the job, and from the Tapp and Whitehurst trades its starting to look like Carroll and Schneider don’t have the patience or skill to do it very well.

by sev79 on Mar 19, 2010 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think the consensus was that Seattle overpaid

Sando broke down the draft value chart while looking at the Hasselbeck trade compared to the Whitehurst trade, and Seattle actually gave up a fair amount more for Hasselbeck by moving down 7 slots in the first as opposed to 20 slots in the second, also the 3rd rounder in 2011 is a near equivalent to a 4th rounder in 2010. Initially, I think the consensus was that Seattle overpaid when hammering out Whitehurst’s contract. Although that’s now debatable.

by Kevaru on Mar 19, 2010 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

The gap between Arizona's 3rd and what we gave up wasn't that big

We needed to offer them something significantly better in order for them to work out a trade with us, since they’ve already got a 3rd rounder in the bag.

Did we pay a little more than Arizona would have? Sure. Is it enough to really worry about? Probably not.

by A-Dog on Mar 19, 2010 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Also from that article:

“No small detail, that. But Smith also revealed that the gap in San Diego between the experienced Volek at No. 2 and Whitehurst at No. 3 wasn’t as large as most assumed. Volek somewhat surprisingly re-signed with the Chargers in 2008, blocking the still-not-ready Whitehurst’s path to the backup job. But since then, Whitehurst’s improvement under the tutelage of offensive-minded head coach Norv Turner has been steady, and some opposing teams were clearly aware of his value.”

by A-Dog on Mar 19, 2010 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Here's another quote from Smith:

“I think they liked him in Clemson and they tracked him through college and in the preseason,” Smith said. “They’ve done their research and made a judgment. They’ve looked at his intangibles, his background, where he’s been trained, what kind of a guy he is, and what his study habits are. I think that’s all positive. I think the only thing missing is the body of work as an NFL player.”

by A-Dog on Mar 19, 2010 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Of course he's going to say that.

What’s he going to say? “Him and Volek are miles apart. Seattle FO just got pwned!!!!!”

It’s all lip service.

6/14/40. Sweet.

by Nick Andron on Mar 19, 2010 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

So he's going to insult his own player?

And tell everyone that he was close to getting beat out by Whitehurst?

There’s just as much motivation for him not to say it as there is for him to say it, if not moreso. I’ll take the comment as genuine.

by A-Dog on Mar 19, 2010 5:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

How is that insulting his own player?

The only way saying those two were close is insulting is if Whitehurst sucks, which he’s not saying.

by OlSalty on Mar 19, 2010 6:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't be surprised

if other NFL GMs and coaches view Seattle as the little old lady that walked into the baseball card shop with a collection of cards from her late husband. She has no clue as to their value, she’s just happy to get enough money in return to buy that set of hair curlers she’s had her eye on since 2005.

If I’m an NFL GM I’m going to target Seattle as a trade partner if at all possible.

by bdf128 on Mar 19, 2010 4:30 PM PDT reply actions  

Just like the young owners in my dynasty leagues.

Same usually young or inexperienced poor deal-makers always getting fleeced. People rarely deal with me (and other owners) because negotiation takes a toll due to a good evaluation of players and willingness to walk away and an unwillingness to over-pay.

by Misfit74 on Mar 19, 2010 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Next move:

’hawks are fleeced again for trading away this years #6 for the wrong Adrian Peterson.

by bdf128 on Mar 19, 2010 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Too bad Seattle couldn't have worked the Tapp trade to get back their natural 3rd

If I recall correctly Anderson had already signed with Arizona for the Tapp trade went through. They could have then put in a tender offer for Whitehurst which San Diego surely would not have matched.

by bdf128 on Mar 19, 2010 5:22 PM PDT reply actions  

That is a very good point

And would’ve been a very shrewd move.

I would love to see this front office make a shrewd move of any kind. But I won’t hold my breath.

by busplunger on Mar 20, 2010 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

I feel the same way.

Talents that I covet:

Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes

by Carl Shinyama on Mar 20, 2010 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well written John

I agree with pretty much everything you wrote.

by Brendan Scolari on Mar 19, 2010 8:08 PM PDT reply actions  

I've been thinking today.. what if Whitehurst was Jeremy Bates' idea?

Whitehurst’s athletic profile seems similar to Jay Cutler’s. We all know how well Bates did with Cutler.

After all, they did get to see what Whitehurst can do with a football, and they complimented his arm.

Talents that I covet:

Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes

by Carl Shinyama on Mar 20, 2010 12:03 AM PDT reply actions  

It's exciting and interesting to think about.

Hopefully the mental game and poise are things he also has. There is just so little info other than what looks to be a very good physical skill-set. I’m hopeful he learns the system and wins the job.

by Misfit74 on Mar 20, 2010 8:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

Me too.

I even hope for a lot more than that. That he adapts rather quickly and succeeds in Bates’ offense, if not masters it in about two years.

This way, I’d feel that the trade for him was justified. Of course, the above scenario is probably not realistic, so I’ll settle for him just winning the job this preseason.

Talents that I covet:

Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes

by Carl Shinyama on Mar 20, 2010 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

lol

That would be both glorious and extremely aggravating lol. Aggravating because Carroll made moves for his own quarterback when the quarterback that he needed was already on the roster.

Talents that I covet:

Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes

by Carl Shinyama on Mar 20, 2010 2:06 PM PDT reply actions  

Damn reply fail.

Talents that I covet:

Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes

by Carl Shinyama on Mar 20, 2010 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

haha, WTF

That’s the second time today someone has blown a reply on one of my comments.

by djafrot on Mar 20, 2010 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'll blame it on the Q/PM

Talents that I covet:

Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes

by Carl Shinyama on Mar 20, 2010 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Its not so bad

Okay, we paid a little more for Whitehurst. But what we bought was time to wait for a next years QB class when the rookie salery cap is in place. But why couldn’t Seattle just gone into next year with Hass and Wallace, and kept the picks and the 40th?

by blazerbill on Mar 21, 2010 2:23 AM PDT reply actions  

Perhaps we acquired CW for what we did for the purpose of letting teams know we're not after Clausen...

if he makes it past the Redskins, only for us to draft Clausen, anyway. The price we paid (for CW) would fortify the move as a deterrent to the few teams below us that could be contemplating trading up above us to ensure Clausen. I think it’s plausible enough, all things considered and would be a big-time move, though expensive and unconventional. CW’s contract isn’t such that he couldn’t, though unlikely be, an expensive backup.

by Misfit74 on Mar 21, 2010 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Because Wallace has proven himself to be a bad NFL quarterback

and carrying a backup that is never going to be your starter is a waste of time when you’re overhauling the roster.

by lemonverbena on Mar 21, 2010 9:30 AM PDT reply actions  

What if the Seahawks could obtain Marshall in exhange for Sims and Spencer?

See http://sea.scout.com/2/955752.html

Makes some sense – Spencer was tendered at his original round (1st) and Sims a 4th. doing the deal would preserve all existing draft picks while adding Marshall.

by Hawksince77 on Mar 21, 2010 3:42 PM PDT reply actions  

Wow, I sure hope not

I don’t think Sims and Spencer are great, but I think with the right coaching, they can be good enough to anchor our line for years. As much as I’d like to see Marshall catching passes in Seahawk blue, this price is too high.

Having said that, if the rumor of Sims’ lockout is true, I could just see this happening. I am somewhat resigned to losing Sims at this time, even though I am worried about compensation and replacement in that scenario, but I think Spencer has been unjustly maligned in the past year.

by IslandHawk on Mar 21, 2010 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, if for whatever reason...

…Sims is already on his way out, and if Unger is expected to start at center, then the trade may make sense for Seattle (and Denver) assuming Gibbs and company have a plan for the o-line.

by Hawksince77 on Mar 21, 2010 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, Denver is moving to a power-blocking scheme...Sims could be a nice fit for them.

Perhaps we have a deal for Marshall that does include Sims – announced at draft-day.

by Misfit74 on Mar 21, 2010 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

I have extremely mixed feelings about that.

I want Brandon Marshall, but at this point the expense would be in further depleting the depth of the O-line.

Seattle has already created enough holes this offseason, they do not need more, especially with with an O-line that is thin on depth as it is.

I am not sure that getting rid of Spencer and Sims (who is the Seahawks’ best lineman right now) for Brandon Marshall helps them win now.

If this move ever came to fruition, my suspicion that Carroll actually means what he says about trying to win now will be confirmed; initially I thought it was just PR talk, but the moves this offseason seem to suggest otherwise. Since the
 Tapp trade (which I still do not understand), that has been my sneaking suspicion.

Talents that I covet:

Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes

by Carl Shinyama on Mar 21, 2010 7:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Of all the options that were presented

I’d rather just trade the 2nd round pick and a 4th round pick.

Talents that I covet:

Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes

by Carl Shinyama on Mar 21, 2010 8:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

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PITTSBURGH - AUGUST 25:  Byron Leftwich #4 of the Pittsburgh Steelers warms up prior to the preseason game against the Carolina Panthers on September 2 2010 at Heinz Field in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania.  (Photo by Jared Wickerham/Getty Images)

Steelers Quarterback Byron Leftwich Leaves Game With Left Knee Injury

CHICAGO - AUGUST 28: Matt Leinart #7 of the Arizona Cardinals walks in the bench area during a preseason game against the Chicago Bears at Soldier Field on August 28 2010 in Chicago Illinois. The Cardinals defeated the Bears 14-9. (Photo by Jonathan Daniel/Getty Images) +2 updates

Leinart Playing Perhaps Final Game In Arizona As Cardinals Finish Preseason Vs. Redskins

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Brady, Manning Make It Through Final Preseason Game Unscathed, Giants Edge Pats, 20-17

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