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Around SBN: Events Cause Mariners To Lose To Rangers

On Standup Ends and the Seahawks Evolving Needs

Seattle traded Darryl Tapp. It acquired Ricky Foley and Chris Clemons, both of whom are pass-rushing linebackers. Pete Carroll talked up playing Aaron Curry as a stand up end, which is either a convoluted way of saying rush linebacker, or a confusing way to play an end. It would seem that Seattle is intent on running a kind of 3-4, in the strictest sense that three players will play with their hands in the dirt, and four will be standing and able to rove.

So the Seahawks scheme is changing and with it its needs. Let's consider the Seahawks current roster, and what new needs arise from this possible shift.

Linebacker: It's crazy to think Seattle would need linebacker depth. It wasn't long ago that trading away linebacker depth to better address more pressing needs seemed sensible. No longer, with David Hawthorne and Lofa Tatupu sharing snaps, Tatupu injured quite a bit recently and Leroy Hill injured quite a bit always, Seattle needs linebackers. Will Herring is the best depth available, but I wonder if Herring will survive the switch. Whatever the case, Seattle needs depth at inside linebacker and potential starter caliber depth at outside linebacker. It needs two to three new players to fill out its linebacker ranks.

Standup End: This is Aaron Curry's position, but Curry has never played it before and that means Seattle better be ready if he struggles. Tapp could have provided depth, but now Seattle needs to find a player of good size and athleticism that can pass rush should Curry not be able to. Brandon Graham and Sergio Kindle make sense, as does Jerry Hughes. Seattle probably can't spend an early pick betting against Curry, but luckily there are plenty of tweener types that can fit this role. It has already added situational pass rushers, but in this all important position, it would be nice to have legitimate depth.

Defensive End/Tackle: This is an interesting need, and how it's filled depends on exactly how Carroll runs his defense. If Curry is an end, he should play beside a defensive tackle. In that case, Seattle would likely start Colin Cole and Brandon Mebane and attempt to add depth and talent to the interior. Lawrence Jackson would absorb the snaps on the left. That does not fit the composition of a traditional 3-4 though. Mebane lacks the length wanted in a 3-4 end. If Mebane and Cole fight it out for nose tackle, then Red Bryant could potentially win a spot alongside Curry. However it works out, Seattle will likely look to add length and athleticism to its defensive line, including a Jackson-like end, and maybe another penetrating tackle.

Seattle needs to adjust its talent to fit what Carroll wants to do, but if that process frees Curry to rush the passer, and if he develops in that role, it will certainly be an achievement. Change takes sacrifice, and sometimes that sacrifice includes an immediate step back, but I think the higher goal of maximizing Curry's potential is worth it.

Poll
If Seattle adapts a 3-4 base, what is the greatest resulting need?
Defensive tackle
408 votes
Defensive end
217 votes
Linebacker
41 votes
Standup End
39 votes

705 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 55 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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Here's to hoping

McCoy falls to the Hawks at 6

by cthunder on Mar 23, 2010 5:38 PM PDT reply actions  

I want an All of the Above option

Lacking that I went linebacker since Herring is the only depth for the three non-rush linebacker spots.

by Nate Dogg on Mar 23, 2010 5:59 PM PDT reply actions  

What about Lance Lau-----

Oh, right.

6/14/60. Sweet.

by Nick Andron on Mar 23, 2010 6:03 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Not resigning Laury drove me crazy

For the depth issue…which we seem to be rapidly developing at every position.

Except QB. Still got three of those.

by Kingdomer on Mar 23, 2010 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

I just get the feeling this is where someone pipes in with:

“Just a matter o’ time. Matter o’ time.”

Talents that I covet:

Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes

by Carl Shinyama on Mar 23, 2010 6:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Seriously?

Laury was hardly significant. Special team LBs are a dime a dozen.

by Built2Spill on Mar 23, 2010 8:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

He was somehow billed as a "special teams ace"

when signed by the Jets. Funny how fast players get talked up when they aren’t playing for the Seahawks.

It's Great to be a Florida Gator!

The Arizona Cardinals' plan for success:
-Lose all talent on team to retirement and free agency.
-Call it a day.

by Wayward Llama on Mar 24, 2010 6:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

yeah weren't all of them

3rd stringers at one point?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI

Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!

by jubelthebear on Mar 24, 2010 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'll call myself a homer

Since we need more LB depth, but don’t necessarily need to spend too much how about Butler from the Huskies. He is a brutal hitter and good in coverage. He will be available in the 5th and provide depth and special teams help. Then in the 7th grab Teo’ he can be like Nick Reed part 2.

by stufr on Mar 23, 2010 6:04 PM PDT reply actions  

He might not even get drafted.

I’d take the chance that he’s available in the 6th or 7th.

Talents that I covet:

Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes

by Carl Shinyama on Mar 23, 2010 6:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Teo' probably won't be available in the 7th

I think he is projected as a 4th or 5th round pick.

by Built2Spill on Mar 23, 2010 8:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

While I certainly realize FG articles are generally based on fact

It was nice to read an article with a sliver of hope, and some acceptance that change is hard, and sometimes for the best.

Much thanks.

It is what it is...

by kidder95 on Mar 23, 2010 6:32 PM PDT reply actions  

Yes, much appreciated

It’s been awfully gloomy around here lately. I don’t deny that recent signs from the organization have been troubling, but for our own wits I think that we fans should project a little more optimism. If we can’t detect a reason for what the front office is doing, maybe we can observe a little rhyme.

by suppiluliuma on Mar 24, 2010 12:45 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Holmgren ran the elephant in Green Bay in '92

Well, coordinator Ray Rhodes did anyways. He brought it over with him from the 49ers. Tony Bennett and Bryce Paup played the hybrid elephant position and ended up with a combined 20 sacks that year. They switched to a straight 4-3 in 94 when Reggie White was brought in and Ray Rhodes left to the become coordinator of the 49ers.

I don’t remember Ray Rhodes running an elephant position with the Seahawks so somewhere along the way he must have given it up.

by Kevaru on Mar 23, 2010 7:39 PM PDT reply actions  

Curry as an elephant LB...RLTW!

Readily will I display the intestinal fortitude required to fight on to the Ranger objective and complete the mission though I be the lone survivor.

All The Way, AIRBORNE!!!

by Airborne Hawk Guy on Mar 23, 2010 8:13 PM PDT via mobile reply actions  

I voted LB because they seem like oft-injured positions, meaning that depth is important.

I would also consider DT a need, but I think that Mebane can hold down the NT in this type of D. He’s not ideal, but if we “blitz” the standup end and move him around then it should be okay. It would also help if we gambled (aka: had good pre-game preperation) and brought some unbalanced blitzes then I don’t think it would be a big deal.

by why's-guy on Mar 23, 2010 8:19 PM PDT reply actions  

Bennett at DE

I don’t get all of the concern at DE. We have a young, inexpensive player who is costs us nothing to keep in Bennett who might be a good fit for a 3-4 DE. Good size. Good strength. Some good moves from that position. etc.

Oh – what? We don’t have him? Did we pick up some extra draft picks for him? Did we need to cut him to fill out our roster? No???

sighs

by JerHawk on Mar 23, 2010 8:54 PM PDT reply actions  

Michael Bennett?

Yeah, old news, but still irritates me.

It's Great to be a Florida Gator!

The Arizona Cardinals' plan for success:
-Lose all talent on team to retirement and free agency.
-Call it a day.

by Wayward Llama on Mar 24, 2010 6:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't get why you guys would move to a 3-4

What’s to gain? It seems like a poor fit with the current roster. Mebane and Lo-Jack have nowhere to play, Cole is at best a stopgap at NT, you’re turning Curry into mostly a full-time pass rusher (although I guess maybe that’s a good thing with the skills he’s displayed so far), and who are the other outside linebackers? Is Chris Clemons a starter now? Or I guess maybe Hill could play there?

I don’t know, I just get confused with why so many teams seemingly arbitrarily switch schemes. In many cases (although the Packers last year were a glaring exception) it just adds more needs and makes it more difficult to put together an effective defense. I just don’t see the point, but perhaps I am missing something.

by Brendan Scolari on Mar 23, 2010 9:03 PM PDT reply actions  

It's a point of contention but depending on how you look at things it's not really a 3-4

Heres the fanpost with a link that talks about Carroll’s 4-3 and you can see the discussion some people had about what to call it.

With just the players available the front four would look something like LoJack – Mebane – Cole and Curry as astand up end. Linebackers would be Hill – Hawthorne – Tatupu – and Curry as rush linebacker. It’s not a terrible fit really when you consider Cole sucks regardless of how you play him.

by Nate Dogg on Mar 23, 2010 9:11 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I see

Perhaps it’s like Tennessee’s defense, I know they had the DE stand up quite a bit, but it wasn’t really a 3-4 in the way most people know it. Carroll did still play a lot of traditional 4-3 at USC too though.

by Brendan Scolari on Mar 23, 2010 9:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

But that period was spurned largely because of the personnel they had

They had Matthews, Rey Rey, Cushing and Keith Rivers and wanted to get all 4 on the field at the same time. Seattle doesn’t have quite the same luxury of talent.

[DELETED ZOMG NO POLITICS]

by bluemax on Mar 24, 2010 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

But I think that is what PC has seen in our current linebacking crew.

I think that he wants to get Tatupu, Hill, Hawthorne and Curry on the field at the same time. They might not equal what he had at USC, but I wouldn’t mind having all 4 of them on the field at the same time.

by seattle_since_81 on Mar 24, 2010 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah

It should be really interesting to see how USC does on defense this year with Kiffin and the Tampa-2, it can’t get much worse than last year (at least not with USC’s talent). But just looking at that article, man those were some great defenses to watch (and offenses too actually, haha).

by Brendan Scolari on Mar 23, 2010 9:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Also

That link is “unsafe” according to my computer, just so you know. I know Trojan Football Analysis is a great site so I’m not sure why that would be.

by Brendan Scolari on Mar 23, 2010 9:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nice

But no, not to my knowledge. I go to that site all the time so I’m not sure why it kept saying that when I clicked on the link.

by Brendan Scolari on Mar 23, 2010 11:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Same here.

It previously wasn’t, I’ve looked at that page at least a dozen times if not more. So I suspect it’s not a false negative, I think it’s legit.

by jacobstevens on Mar 24, 2010 9:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

Pretty sure it's a false negative

It was marked unsafe for me too a few weeks back, but the warning has been removed.

Oddly enough the <a href="http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:mWarUaOiztkJ:www.trojanfootballanalysis.com/usc_elephant_defense.html+http://www.trojanfootballanalysis.com/usc_elephant_defense.html&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=nl&client=opera" >google cached version still wails at me.

by Thomas Beekers on Mar 24, 2010 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

oh man thank you for posting that, nothing’s gotten me this excited about the upcoming season in ages. That shit is exciting.

The Odenphant is true king of the jungle.

by maxmillian on Mar 24, 2010 4:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

Curse all you want.

Hell damn fart!

But please use the subject line.

by thebyron on Mar 24, 2010 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

oh man thank you for posting that, nothing’s gotten me this excited about the upcoming season in ages. That stuff is exciting.

The Odenphant is true king of the jungle.

by maxmillian on Mar 24, 2010 4:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

We can still curse.

God damnit.

It's Great to be a Florida Gator!

The Arizona Cardinals' plan for success:
-Lose all talent on team to retirement and free agency.
-Call it a day.

by Wayward Llama on Mar 24, 2010 7:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

it's a 3-4 look?

in the SB Gregg Williams was giving the Colts a 3-3-5. It looked like a 3-4 running a nickel even though NO is a 4-3 team. It wasn’t that effective against the run…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI

Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!

by jubelthebear on Mar 24, 2010 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

I voted tackle, but it's end.

Kerney Cole Mebane Curry
Jackson Bryant Terrill Reed
                                           Clemson
 

Hill Tatupu Herring
Hawthorne Foley

I’m not so sure DE and SUE need to be tremendously distinguished, here. If they are, though, we’ve got some pass rushers who aren’t ends. Kerney’s not removed from the roster, yet, and it’s the only way to not have a 240 .lbs every-down lineman. So we need an end, and he needs to be a traditional DE, a full-sized DE. That’s not to say he shouldn’t or couldn’t have the attributes for 2-point rushing, rotating with Curry.

by jacobstevens on Mar 24, 2010 9:28 AM PDT reply actions  

To me, a 3-4 is all about the big three up front doing their job so the back 4 can make plays.

I think LoJack, if he’s up to 295 can do it, and I think Mebane certainly if he goes back to 325 can do it as well, but then who do we have as the third man? Do we use Red Bryant (who I wish got more playing time last year, thanks Mora)? Or can we get a Jared Odrick / Tyson Alualu type to be our 3rd 300ish lb lineman so Hill, Hawthorne, Curry, and Tatupu can make plays?

by LantermanC on Mar 24, 2010 9:31 AM PDT reply actions  

I think you're right

but that’s because 2 if not all 3 down lineman in a traditional 3-4 usually have 2-gap responsibility, read & react, committing to 1-gap.

Carroll has stressed many times that he has single-gap assignment across the board. So 2 LB roles are assigned a gap. I remember he re-affirmed the single-gap responsibility in the KJR Mitch Levy interview a week or so after being hired.

I think, but am not sure, that the end be in in a 2-point stance changes almost nothing for the roles the 3 actual line backers play. If not completely nothing. But anyway the gap assignment difference lead to different personnel tactics. I don’t think they key is block-absorbent beef up front and speed guys flying around behind them. It’s more getting 3 points of penetration, from your ends and 3-tech, and single-gap play channeling the ball to a WLB tackling machine.

Which would mean, Curry at end, Jackson at end, need a 3-tech, and Leroy Hill is up to the task.

by jacobstevens on Mar 24, 2010 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

the thing that worries me the most

is that we are switching to Carroll’s scheme that may or may not be better then what we had. With no current NFL resume to his credit we could be implementing a giant turd of a scheme and in the process jettisoning great talent because it “didn’t fit”. I suppose that’s always the risk but in our case I think its even more relevant.

by Hancock.Brett on Mar 24, 2010 10:42 AM PDT reply actions  

How is this any different than last year?

:P

No but I agree. I don’t know why he’s implementing a NEW system, when last year’s system wasn’t too far from being respectable – it just needed a bit more pass rush and a better scheme in the secondary.

6/14/60. Sweet.

by Nick Andron on Mar 24, 2010 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

There is very little evidence to support any kind of drastic system change or scheme change.

The two most important defensive coaches were retained and one was our defensive coordinator. So, although Carroll being the new head coach matters, there is not much other than a few quotes as assumptions based on his history to support definitive changes. I think many of us, including John, are still trying to figure out what is going to be run. Much like last year when the ‘West Coast Defense’ was getting tossed around frequently and there was little to identify what that meant.

by Misfit74 on Mar 24, 2010 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

good point

and @Nick , I suppose there is no difference just that we could point to a history of Mora in the NFL. If he truly “masterminded” the defense then his time in Atlanta helped us see what it would look like.

by Hancock.Brett on Mar 24, 2010 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

vanilla coverage?

WCD = marbletop Vanilla Ice cream with marshmallows.

*drooling * Mmmm I want some Mix Ice cream…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI

Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!

by jubelthebear on Mar 24, 2010 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

I nominate the name West Coast Defense

to mean heretofore, a bad defense that doesn’t work, with pathetically soft zone coverage. If and when we get a defense that becomes great enough to warrant naming, we’ll come up with a different name. Something not lame.

by jacobstevens on Mar 24, 2010 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

There's plenty of evidence for a change.

Besides the words from Carroll’s mouth, and his past history of using LBs as standup ends, the also traded Darryl Tapp and aquired Foley and Clemons.

I don’t think it’s a drastic change though – the scheme is pretty much the same except the RDE is in a two point stance instead of 3.

The main thing is that Aaron Curry’s role changes quite a bit.

by A-Dog on Mar 25, 2010 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

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