Talent, Skills and the Big NFL Draft Lie
You just can't fake being a fan. I haven't watched the Huskies all season, but tuned in for tournament time. I have been a Washington fan since the Huskies split a national championship in football. Yeah, I was bandwagon, but I was eight.
The closest I have ever become to being a fan of the UW basketball team is during the Brandon Roy era. I just loved how Roy played ball. I didn't watch a dribble of Husky basketball in 2009. I knew enough to know it wasn't "Poindexter." Over the tournament I formed some global impressions of the program. They were akin to 2009 USC Trojans - the basketball team. The Huskies had equal or better talent on the floor, but were sloppy, disorganized, and wont to error. The quintessential play from my brief viewing: Isaiah Thomas driving to the hoop, having his shot contested by multiple defenders, his teammates ogling outside the key, Thomas having no outlet and either attempting a low percentage shot or passing the ball out of bounds. The quickness and coordination was there in spades, but the teamwork and team coordination was absent.
The two most basic characteristics of a prospect are their talent and their skill. Talent is perceived as innate and unlikely or impossible to change. "You can't coach speed." Etc. The very most basic talent is body composition. However skilled, the modern NFL will never start a 5'9"/255 lb left tackle. Size is a universally accepted form of talent. That does not mean bigger is better, but it usually is. Talent is shorthand for things like size, speed, jumping ability, coordination, durability, muscle distribution, muscle composition, agility and whatever else is seen as permanent. A low center of gravity might be considered a talent for a defensive tackle, whereas a long torso might be considered a talent for a swimmer.
Skill is the player's ability to perform their job. A quarterback's read or pocket awareness is considered a skill, because a human is not born innately able to sense pressure from pass rushers or read a complicated zone defense. Anything that is considered external, able to be coached, improved, that is a product of learning rather than genetics, is considered a skill. Peyton Manning, who has probably been practicing to play quarterback since he was a small child, is incredibly skilled at quarterback. His arm is no longer among the strongest, he is no threat to scramble, but is possibly the greatest quarterback to ever play football.
In reality, skills and talent are difficult to fully differentiate.
Consider the concept of "motor." Motor is thought to be a positive skill. A player with a high motor is active throughout the play and throughout the game. Motor is typically used as a proxy for a player's desire. He works hard; he trains hard; he has a high motor. Motor certainly has something to do with conditioning, but conditioning, and one's ability to improve conditioning has something to do with genetics. It is both a talent and a skill. How much a player can improve his motor is hard to know. Certainly, I can formulate a hypothetical in which a player could improve it dramatically, but also one where that deficit will haunt him his entire career.
How much anything is ever fully a "skill" and how much a "skill" can be further developed by the time a player enters the NFL is part of the art of drafting well. Al Davis is often mocked for selecting height-weight-speed players. Recently, that has not worked, but historically, the Raiders are among the most successful franchises in the history of professional football. His most recent and perhaps greatest mistake was drafting JaMarcus Russell. Russell had the size, power and arm-strength talent, but not the accuracy, read and pocket-awareness skills.
Maybe Russell was/is the right coaching staff, the right tough love, the right combination of surrounding talent away from being a great quarterback, but I doubt it. His skills are poor and he plays the most skill-intensive position in football. Year after year, teams continue to take the Russell-gambit. They think skills can be developed, talent sets the potential of a player, and good talent and good coaching wins football games. Sometimes it works. Sometimes you draft a one-year starter, community-college transfer with 4.6 speed and get Walter Jones. Sometimes you draft a four-year starter from The U and get Kelly Jennings.
Sometimes skills develop and sometimes they don't. Surely some skills develop more easily than others, but I do not know of a formalized study on that. Sometimes tools deteriorate and once talented players become less talented. Sometimes a player has pro talent and pro skills, but is mismatched within a scheme or undermined by his surrounding talent. Sometimes injury renders it all irrelevant. There is no one right way to draft. What is clear, or what should be clear is: Talent is not permanent. Some of what we perceive as skills are simply less recognized talents. Skilled players can fail because their talent is insufficient and talented players can fail because their skills are insufficient, but assuming a player will radically improve their talent or skills is always a mistake. Nick Reed will not get dramatically bigger. Seneca Wallace will not dramatically improve his pocket presence. If you want a great player, his deficiencies must be surmountable, and if they're not, and you are beguiled by fanciful notions of "upside", then you will waste resources and doom your team.
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And how do you measure how deficient a player is of a certain skill?
How and where do you draw the line between surmountable and insurmountable? Is that even possible to do with a reasonable sense of accuracy?
6/14/60. Sweet.
I think it's a lot more complicated for Quarterbacks
Judgement under pressure, spatial-temporal reasoning and vision aren’t measured as talents, but you can’t really teach them, either.
Seahawks-4-Life
Rocky Balboa.
Oh wait. He’s fictional.
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
by Carl Shinyama on Mar 26, 2010 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions
So's Nick Reed.
At least, how we at FG treat him.
He DID intercept Aragorn!
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
by Carl Shinyama on Mar 26, 2010 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Another impressive read
I like where your writing skills are going. Must have the talent ;)
It is what it is...
I learned Talent vs. Skill by learning guitar
I could teach myself to hit the notes fast, but I couldn’t teach myself how to have long fingers. (I have sizable hands, but they’re all palm. Lame.)
FT Shooting seems like the perfect illustration of the talent/skill overlap
If you look at the FT shooting leaders in the NBA you’ll see lots of different kinds of players. FT shooting places a high premium on repetition; using the same motion and release over and over. So in a sense it’s always true that poor free throw shooting results from a lack of skill.
But, when you dig deeper it is also true that some body types better allow for repeatable shooting motions and releases. A guy with Steph Curry’s lanky, super-flexible upper body type will have a much easier time becoming a good free throw shooter than a guy with Ben Wallace’s much bulkier body type. If you look at the league’s worst qualifying FT shooters (sub-70%) you’ll see a high percentage of broad-shouldered big guys who are fundamentally less flexible in the upper body.
There’s enough variance in body type among both the leaders and the also-rans it’s obvious that many players improve—even from a low baseline—with practice. (Ahem. I’m looking at you Rajon Rondo.) But no amount of practice is gonna turn Kendrick Perkins into Ray Allen.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
This is more about shooting skills in general than body type. The correlation is there, but I'm not certain it exists for the reason you've listed.
Guards work on shooting. A lot. Big men don’t with nearly the same frequency. Kendrick Perkins isn’t good at shooting free throws because Kendrick Perkins isn’t good at shooting. Amare Stoudemire spent a lot of time working on his midrange game and, despite being strong and somewhat bulky, shoots a pretty decent percentage. This works for the same reason kickers are much better at kicking than wideouts.
You said it yourself:
FT shooting places a high premium on repetition; using the same motion and release over and over.
I could see another similar analogy with golf.
Though I imagine less could be gleaned from body-type variation with regard to pro players.
Why would it be true that guards practice free throws more? Bigs (on avg.) get to the line more.
My point is that skill (in this case repetition) interacts with body type—not that body type is determinative.
If you look at NBA players who shoot 80% or better at the stripe you’ll see lots of forwards as well as guards. Also, if you look at FT/FG you’ll see lots of big men.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
Read again.
Guards work on shooting. A lot. Big men don’t with nearly the same frequency.
I didn’t say FT shooting, I said shooting in general. Taking 3s, midrange shots, etc.
Check out this mock from Brooks...
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-draft/09000d5d8172abf5/Brooks-mock-draft
He has Bradford, Okung, MCCOY, Williams, Bulaga going 1-5, leaving Suh to fall to the Seahawks at 6.
Inconceivable!!
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
by Carl Shinyama on Mar 27, 2010 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions
+1 for the Princess Bride reference, if I got that one right anyhow.
by Seahawks4life on Mar 27, 2010 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Why, yes you were!
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
by Carl Shinyama on Mar 27, 2010 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Don't waste your time with Bucky Brooks
If you look at the last 3 mock drafts he has put out in the last few weeks you’ll see that he makes choices by putting names up on a dart board. Because there’s no other explanation for how his mocks are so different from one another.
Except that he manipulates the Mocks to create discussion
Rather than just post the exact same thing everyone else is. I find that valuable.
The only thing that makes this credible...
…is the possibility Tampa taking McCoy over Suh, which by some accounts makes some sense. If that happens, then there is a fair chance Suh falls to six. Who else would draft him? Perhaps somebody deeper in the first round jumps up to take him, but one of the two DTs might be there for Seattle.
Suh is going either 1, 2 or at worst 3. End of story.
He’s a Beast – yes I capitalized it. Even if the unthinkable happens and the first 3 teams take a pass on Suh (which isn’t going to happen), the idea of Orakpo, Haynesworth and Suh in the Redskins front 7 would get Dan Snyder raging harder than if he had just swallowed an entire bottle of boner pills, Any other choice by Shanahan or Bruce Allen would be met by a swift executive veto.
Suh/McCoy falling is not a similar proposition
I think the Bucs taking McCoy over Suh might actually make some sense considering their needs, but where McCoy is more limited in what roles he could fit in (3-tech DT), Suh is seen as a potentially great 3-4 DE as well. Now 3-4 DEs aren’t exactly premium players, but I don’t think the two 3-4 teams picking at 4th and 5th would pass him by.
by Thomas Beekers on Mar 27, 2010 7:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Bucky's mock is the funniest thing I read each week.
It keeps getting funnier. did he at least get the right McCoy in there?
I can't talk about skill and talent
without completing the Holy Trinity of NFL Success: desire. While desire is easily the hardest to gauge in the scouting process, I would say that this mental trait is on equal terms with skill and talent.
I think that Manning was instilled that hunger from his Dad who had to endure a career of losing with the terrible Saints teams of the 70s. As well as watching a legendary amount of game film, Peyton Manning used to piss off the Tennessee baseball team because he would organize passing drills in January when the baseball team owned the field (SI):
“We threw for 3,000 yards last year, completed 64 percent, because of what we were doing in January and February. You ask some quarterbacks, ‘Hey, you been throwin’?’ They say, ‘Yeah.’ Well, their idea of throwing is two quarterbacks playing catch. My idea is getting receivers and defensive backs out here. Something tells me it hasn’t been done much here before, and that’s why there was controversy.”Ray Lewis felt that Miami 2-a-days just weren’t enough (Oralndo Sentinel):
Leading by example, Lewis organizes an atypical card game every night after two-a-day practices. He gathers a handful of teammates in a dorm room, where each player takes turns drawing from a stack of cards. Whatever number is drawn equals the number of pushups or situps the player must drop on the floor and do. A joker equals 20. Kings, queens and jacks equal 10. An ace is worth 11 pushups or situps.
The game continues until the players run through three or four deck of cards – an estimated 200 pushups and 200 situps per player.
’’He’s just a motivator,‘’ teammate Dennis Scott said. ’’He loves to compete. He wants to be the best in everything.’’
I like desire in a running back, too.
And, I desire this guy to become a Seahawk:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcY8Mqlu1qU&feature=player_embedded
Daaaaaaaaamn!
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
by Carl Shinyama on Mar 27, 2010 9:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Talent. Skills. Desire. Compatibility?
What about all these things being translated into a good situation for a player’s skill set – aka would Joe Montana be a hall-of-famer if he wasn’t drafted by a team that ran a West Coast offense that was tailored to his skill set?
The Odenphant is true king of the jungle.
Nick Reed's Compatability
Continuing the idea I wrote above, what does fieldgulls think of Nick Reed’s ability to play standing end in Carroll’s new defense?
Perhaps his skillset is more compatible in a position where his size is less of a disadvantage. The kid seems to have a real knack for getting to the quarterback
The Odenphant is true king of the jungle.

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