The Branching Risks of Acquiring Brandon Marshall
On September 11, 2006, Seattle traded the 24th pick in the 2007 draft for Deion Branch. By accepted rules of equivalency, Seattle's first round pick was worth a late second round pick because Seattle would have Branch most of the 2006 season and New England would not receive its compensation until 2007. Branch had turned 26 two months earlier and was New England's #1 receiver. To that point in his career, he had 213 receptions, for 2,744 yards, and 14 touchdowns.
Seattle is now entertaining trading a first round pick for Brandon Marshall. Marshall turns 26 in about two weeks. He has 327 receptions, for 4,019 yards and 25 touchdowns. He dwarfs Branch in raw stats, and yet Branch beats Marshall in advanced stats. Through four seasons, passes targeting Marshall are worth 110.3 EPA and 425 DYAR. Through his first four seasons, passes targeting Branch were worth 147.2 EPA and 556 DYAR. Now, notice I wrote "passes targeting", we still do not have a solid way of separating individual EPA and DYAR from surrounding talent, but the same can be said for yards. Advanced stats might be more sensitive, but all stats are sensitive to total team performance.
By true talent level, Marshall is probably the better receiver, but advanced stats do help us recognize the gap may not be as wide as perceived. Branch has injury concerns but no concerns about his character. Marshall has some minor injury concerns, a partially torn PCL in 2006, groin and quadriceps injuries in 2007, but major concerns about his character. Marshall, relatively, is a little older, but not significantly. Marshall is the better tools player, but Branch was the better skills player, and has better hands and runs more consistent routes than Marshall.
Tim Ruskell was raked over the coals for trading Seattle's 2007 first round pick for Branch. Much of the criticism stems from an overvaluation of that pick, especially since it was a future pick and therefore generally devalued, and a misunderstanding of the circumstances in which Ruskell made the move. Ruskell overestimated Seattle's chances for future contention, believed he was adding a finished player -a sure thing- he could not have attained through the draft or free agency, to a team that had just played in the Super Bowl and would contend for years to come. That wasn't the case, of course. Branch was not a sure thing. His injuries worsened, but moreover and for whatever reason, he never developed chemistry with Matt Hasselbeck and, even healthy, was never able to impact Seattle's offense like he did New England's.
Ruskell's mistake was less about trading a first round pick and more about trading a first round pick for an expensive free agent. Of the wide receivers available at that pick, Sidney Rice and Steve Smith have developed, but not until 2009, and though a handful of other players that fit Seattle's needs developed value, a handful have been worth less than Branch, even busted Branch. In fact, using Brian Burke's analysis of projected draft value, Branch has exceeded the worth of an average receiver taken 24th overall.
Ruskell's mistake was trading a first round pick for an expensive free agent. Seattle signed Branch to a six-year, $39 million dollar contract with $13 million guaranteed. That contract has not limited Seattle very much, it has been active in free agency and generally been able to control its cap, but it might have cost it somewhat: Signing Colin Cole instead of Chris Canty; Trading Julian Peterson and drafting Aaron Curry. Whatever the actual ramifications, the contract has grown onerous, will likely lead to Branch being cut if he can't be traded, and has been a PR nightmare. If it didn't cost Seattle much in free agency, it contributed to costing Tim Ruskell his job.
So, I ask, how much more valuable is Brandon Marshall than Deion Branch? Marshall may still command the 14th pick, and that's a more valuable pick in a better draft class. Unlike Branch, he is not joining a team that finished its season in the Super Bowl, but a team that has had two consecutive losing seasons and that is on its third head coach in three years. The 14th pick is not a future pick, and Seattle will not get a season of Marshall before paying for Marshall. Marshall has less injury risk, but considerably greater character risk. Marshall is probably the better player, but a highlight reel does not do his game justice. Chris Chambers has an excellent highlight reel. Bobby Engram does not. There's more to being an effective receiver than being "Beastly".
DYAR and EPA probably will not come up in contract negotiations. If Marshall wants to be paid like a top three wide receiver, and his refusal of a $9.5 million dollar contract extension might indicate just that, he could cost much more than Branch. Larry Fitzgerald has $30 million guaranteed. Randy Moss has $14.1 million guaranteed over three seasons. Greg Jennings has $16.25 million guaranteed over four seasons. Marshall would likely command something north of $20 million guaranteed.
It's exciting to add a great talent. It can feel like signing an established player is investing in a sure thing, but there is no sure thing, and a veteran faces pitfalls of his own: growing older, reestablishing chemistry, maintaining drive. If Seattle selects a quarterback, be it early or a late developmental pick, that player will take at least four seasons to surpass 80% of his potential and five to six seasons to enter his prime. Marshall is an attractive bridge, but would be exiting his prime as Seattle's future quarterback is entering his own. So even if Marshall is attained at the loss of only the 40th pick, Seattle might be attaining an older receiver in exchange for a Damian Williams, Brandon LaFell or Taylor Price. And unlike those players, cheap players that Seattle may be patient with and that would not restrict Seattle's options in free agency, Marshall would cost a mint and need to contribute right away.
Is Marshall worth Seattle's second round pick? Probably, if only because eminent talent rather than obvious fit. Is he worth a first round pick? Not at his price and not for the 2010 Seahawks. Any scenario in which Seattle trades a draft pick or picks for Marshall has greater risk and greater downside than any scenario in which Seattle keeps its picks and invests in its future. Seahawks fans know that, because we've been here before. We remember, but have we learned?
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Comments
Please good no!
I think Marshall would make sense if we needed to add a missing piece. That was my big issue with the Branch trade, we needed more than just one piece, and it cost us. I am not wild about Marshall, he screams diva which can be a bad thing for a young QB.
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
stupid sticking keys...
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 8, 2010 10:06 AM PST up reply actions
Well put.
Lacking a good Qb, I really don’t think we should invest in another expensive WR, since tactical passes become less utilized, less numerous and efficient.
by paul2 on Mar 8, 2010 10:14 AM PST via mobile reply actions
Looking back, I would love Sidney Rice on our team right now.
I still don’t know how he fell to the 2nd round.
That's why I wanted to hire Emmitt "Doc" Brown for GM
provided he came with the DeLorean.
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 8, 2010 11:12 AM PST up reply actions
As a redshirt freshman, Rice caught 70 passes for 1143 yards and 13 TDs.
He ran a 40 yard dash in 4.51, which isn’t mind blowing except for the fact that he is 6’4".
He left after his sophomore year. Call me crazy, but that sounds like Crabtree or Fitzgerald, both of whom were selected top 10.
Jordy Nelson was a walk-on at Kansas State.
And while he did have 1606 yards his senior year, he was 22 years old. Sidney Rice was 19 (despite the red shirt, he’s young for his class) and was playing his first year at a higher level.
Great piece. One of the best I've read here.
I Have to ask, though: why would a team wait until a future QB reaches 80+% of his prime to try and win or even make a playoff run? Teams like Baltimore, Atlanta, and possibly others (Green Bay?) made playoff pushes well before the window described above (five or six seasons). The entire roster could turn over in 5-6 seasons. I can’t see not adding Marshall based on the crieria of timing one player’s prime within a young QB’s prime after a 5-6 year wait. Baltimore and Atlanta are not waiting 5 or 6 years to win. Did PIT wait 5 or 6 years to win after drafting Ben? How about the Jets? They aren’t planning around Sanchez’ prime 5 or 6 years from now.
It would be great if Seattle had talent like Atlanta, Baltimore or New York
but it doesn’t, and so it must plan around what talent it can hope to gain in the future. And further, besides Pittsburgh, I don’t see your examples as exemplary patterns to follow. New York could be screwed very soon. Atlanta made the Wildcard round, lost and missed the playoffs the next year. Baltimore is still very much leaning on an aged defense. Seattle should not wait to attempt to contend, but it should plan to contend when it has a quarterback it can count on.
Waiting for one position to be resolved before adding a player at a related position sounds like a recipe for permanent rebuilding.
by lemonverbena on Mar 8, 2010 10:34 AM PST up reply actions
Truth
My fridge couldn’t hold enough beer to mask the pain of watching Matt last year.
My mistake then
I thought part of your argument was, why bother with an established WR if the QB position isn’t a high-performing position already.
by lemonverbena on Mar 8, 2010 10:41 AM PST up reply actions
I have no problem with adding an established wide receiver
but like Housh last year, it will not add much value until Seattle has a quarterback.
I'm hoping Carroll's comments on Hass are just PR
and that after breaking 2009 tape, they come to the same conclusion we have.
by lemonverbena on Mar 8, 2010 10:46 AM PST up reply actions
I think he said a while back he already watched all the tape
So any comments made recently would be with all knowledge.
I’m guessing that it’s all PR.
Carroll and co are smart people, and they can’t for a second think that Hass is a long term solution.
Weirder things have happened, however. So who knows?
6/14/40. Sweet.
A franchise should be continually building to get to or stay good
Its just a matter of priorities and the resources available to fill those priorities.
If Marshall costs us one of our 1st round picks then we are not necessarily filling our priorities well with what we have available.
Could it be argued that a lot of our talent has "lost their luster?"
Sure…..
Lofa has been banged up and might not regain his previous form.
Marcus Trufant, too
Leroy Hill might not ever put all the pieces together
Aaron Curry might not develop the way we hope
Darryl Tapp might not become the sack machine we hope he could be
Lawrence Jackson might remain bland and average
Josh Wilson might remain a nickel back.
John Carlson might not be the future All-Pro a lot of us had hoped
Chris Spencer may continue teasing us with potential, just to get hurt again
Max Unger may not be strong enough for the pros
Sean Locklear might only be a good RT, if that
Rob Sims. might…..well, I think he’s pretty good
Deon Butler might not pan out
Mike Teel might be anonther non-Tom Brady 6th round QB
….but maybe not. I think the Falcons, Ravens and Dolphins have benefited lately from not having so many players get hurt. Would Flacco or Ryan or Henne look less impressive, if half their o-line got hurt next season? What if Ray Rice and Roddy White and Ronnie Brown take a step backward? What if all of these scenarios — and more — came to be? Would these teams stand in the crucible unscathed if they were dealt the same bad hand that the Seahawks did the last two seasons?
I don’t think things are so dire here; the Falcons weren’t looking to “win now” when they drafted Matt Ryan in 2008. Some thought they were one of the worst teams in the leage after the Michael Vick fiasco, but a lot went their way.
I am not in favor of trading the #14 for Brandon Marshall, but I think this team is not like the Rams or Lions, who are so bereft of talent that they can’t possibly contend. A lot of things could go right with the acquistion of Marshall, and a lot of things could go wrong if we stand pat. It’s a complex issue….which is why I think John wrote this in the first place.
Just to be helpful
Try trimming your posts down. Most people here don’t read comments this long.
6/14/40. Sweet.
I know, but I assumed everyone would make an exception for me.
Because I’m so great and awesome and…..sobs uncontrollably
It's not that long if you just zip over those names
and take it to mean ‘players might not pan out or have bad luck’.
The way I look at it, though
Sometimes it’s easy to downgrade the entire team when you think about just a few players, like JUST Hasselbeck or JUST Julius Jones, and so on. I felt putting all those names up there would be a good way to remind everyone of all the good things we have.
Hell, I even forgot to bring up Brandon Mebane and Justin Forsett, and…..okay, I’ll stop now.
I don't mind the length.
Post as long as you want. If you are one who doesn’t like long posts, ignore them. No offense, but I think enough moderators police this blog that readers don’t have to, in general.
I did not think your comment was a problem.
Especially since the appearance of length was mostly created by the opening list. I think the bigger problem is when every comment is long from a particular commenter, and it becomes a chore to even have a conversation with them.
JL White
I enjoyed your ‘long post.’ You didn’t ramble, you made a good point and contributed to the discussion. So you can stop crying….
Receivers don't matter much..
if your quarterback is continually running for his life. Let’s fix the line first before we make a splash with another high priced free agent at receiver.
Obviously the line needs a ton of help
But wouldn’t having established WR targets on both sides help a struggling (or young) QB?
by lemonverbena on Mar 8, 2010 10:36 AM PST up reply actions
It would, but...
receivers need time for their routes to develop.
by SeahawkSammy on Mar 8, 2010 10:42 AM PST up reply actions
Many, even most routes develop very quickly.
Unless Seattle is intending to run the Mike Martz offense.
True. Much of Marshall's appeal is his ability to make big plays out of slants and screens.
Coincidentally, those kind of routes fit within the 5-10 yard arm strength window of our current QB.
Which is not a bad thing
As long as we have someone developing, who will be the QB of the future after next year.
If PC is committed to Matt, I can't see him drafting a quarterback early.
And though it would be nice to develop a late round pick, it doesn’t often happen.
A pre-requesite would be to have someone who could develop in a relatively short amount of time
Late round won’t fill the bill. Teel is still possible, but unlikely also.
Matthew is in the last year of his contract, correct?
One year of starting/mentoring a young QB wouldn’t be much of a commitment. But letting Good Matt Hunting’s sparkling personality sway Carroll to commit to another contract, then yes, that would suck.
by lemonverbena on Mar 8, 2010 11:34 AM PST up reply actions
He is, and as long as that stays true, I'm comforted.
When Seattle announces an extension and restructuring concomitant with signing Marshall, then I will be pissed.
Doubt that Carroll has seen enough to already decide on Matt as the be-all answer at QB
I think/hope his statements are more “vote of confidence” PR as a new coach than actual commitment.
by lemonverbena on Mar 8, 2010 11:41 AM PST up reply actions
For sure
This is just off the cuff thoughts. Gut feeling. Nothing I would count on, but it’s worth noting that the idea that Seattle desperately needs a quarterback is considered common knowledge here, and not really anywhere else I can think of.
"Seattle needs a quarterback of the future" seems to be the growing conventional wisdom
by lemonverbena on Mar 8, 2010 12:02 PM PST up reply actions
If Seattle passes on a franchise QB yet again
The team need only look to St. Louis to see the results. First Walter becomes the next Pace, now we are potentially following the St. Louis denial at QB path.
Committed to Matt or no, Aaron Rodgers would be a great example of a path to follow, albeit with a higher pick and less pine time.
It is what it is...
John, can I request
some time this off-season, in between the book and draft pick studies and season retrospectives — well, let’s make it that — a lesser season retrospective on Greg Knapp? Since he’s not with the team anymore, it doesn’t have to be on the same level, but it could tell us a lot of the offense carried over.
What I want to know is, how did Knapp use hot routes? Which might be super hard to ascertain. But it felt like they were almost ignored. Felt like Matt did a lot of reading on his outlet passes. Could be playbook familiarity, could be receiver chemistry, could be execution, or arm strength/injury issues. I don’t know. But I strongly felt all season long whatever the cause there was a manifested preclusion to hitting a hot outlet in the face of pressure, and kept wondering if it was something about Knapp’s playbook.
To your point — it’s frightening watching how far the Cardinals’ routes get downfield in three seconds. And those guys don’t have top speed. being inundated from Holmgren and then Hasselbeck-stifled Knapp, there’s a striking contrast to watching Warner zipit to a receiver for 18 because the tackle’s protection could very well have been described as “unabated to the quarterback.”
by jacobstevens on Mar 8, 2010 12:25 PM PST up reply actions
I'm kind of sick
of hearing about a players’ “character.” Rather than his ability. What is more important to the Seahawks, a SB trophy or an 0 and 16 team of friggin’ boy scouts? That being said I believe that if Seattle can get Marshall without having to surrender their #6 pick, make the deal. If that deal cannot be made then screw it, get yer LT Okung at 6, QB or DE stud at 14 and a WR at 40.
What? No SOUL?
Ask cinci what it thinks about character
Ask pitt what they are currently thinking about character.
If the character is bad enough, it can negatively effect the rest of the team. You have to think about it.
Drafting Koren Robinson and Jerramy Stevens sure worked out great
by B.B.Finnegan on Mar 8, 2010 10:53 AM PST up reply actions
This is as good an argument against ignoring character issues that I can think of
With that said, I think Brandon Marshall is a little different. Robinson and Stevens’ quality of play suffered along with their off-field issues. Marshall seems to… if not put that aside, at least continue to produce at a high level. At least, when he isn’t injured or suspended.
by lemonverbena on Mar 8, 2010 11:46 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah but I think if Marshall has one more beat down
he’ll be suspended. He has a history of domestic violence and like alcoholism, that sticks with unless you really have a big intervention and stop it. I don’t think he has really tried to stop it. I can’t seem him going 12 months after signing a fat contract before he’s in the news for smacking a girl around.
This is a reasonable assumption
Love the player, hate the character issues. It’s a legitimate concern.
Yes, they did.
But their accomplishments and productivity, or rather, their lack of both diminished the perspective of their talent levels. Both were tremendously talented athletes. It’s just that their off-field miscues got them booted from the team.
Though, to Jerramy Stevens’ credit, he stayed out of trouble from the law for about 4 years or so.
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
by Carl Shinyama on Mar 8, 2010 7:43 PM PST up reply actions
Not a big fan of advanced metrics...
In football. For instance, I think a receivers can see quite a difference in degree of difficulty in passes targeted to them. Elite wide receivers are expected to get up and fight for the ball. I think a quarterback is far more likely to check down when your #1 option being covered is Deion Branch vs. Brandon Marshall.
Also, placing value on a player shouldn’t be linear IMHO. The difference between pretty good and great might be small, but there is great value in that difference.
All that beign said, I think he’s worth our second as well. Too many red flags, and not enough apparant demand in the market.
Branch's NE numbers are arguably skewed because of the great QB and system
You can’t say the same for Marshall. He puts up numbers regardless.
by lemonverbena on Mar 8, 2010 10:49 AM PST up reply actions
Branch does benefit from Brady and the system
but he also kicked Marshall’s ass. So, I wouldn’t just discount it. Marshall is known as Baby TO for a reason.
If you look at Branch's numbers
On a per game basis they haven’t differed much since his New England days (not sure about DYAR). The big difference has been not being able to stay healthy a hole season and having no Superbowl MVP appearances.
by B.B.Finnegan on Mar 8, 2010 10:58 AM PST up reply actions
So he also disappeared several times a season in New England?
All wideouts disappear with some frequency. There are guys like Holt, where if they didn’t have a monster game they caught 4 balls for 60 yards. I’m not trying to dog Branch by the question, but there were a lot of snaps with no discernible contribution in between the productive games, past 2 years.
by jacobstevens on Mar 8, 2010 12:30 PM PST up reply actions
That's a very good point.
The higher on the scale a player is graded, each increment is more valuable, than lower on the scale.
by jacobstevens on Mar 8, 2010 12:28 PM PST up reply actions
Well written
You put into words some of the issues that have been bothering me, but with the substance that has trouble breaking through the Malt and Hops left over in my brain. I’ll wait and see the deal, if it ever appears, but I don’t like this unless it is a Boldin like deal.
I curious how to reconcile
the shorter term ‘win now’ mentality with the longer term ‘rebuilding’ mentality. A few teams in recent history have made a dramatic shift from cellar dwellers to division champs in a single year. After their great turn arounds, it seems like Miami and Atlanta are on the way to regular contention. What is different about the approach that these teams took versus say St Louis, Detroit, or Oakland (barring the obvious Matt Millen and Al Davis self sabotage)?
It seems foolish for the Seahawks to secure Marshall if they are going to suck for another few years, but not nearly so bad if the Hawks put together another recovery a la Atlanta. I just wonder what Carroll and Schneider’s orientation or philosophy about rebuilding is. How dangerous is it to plan to ‘win now’ or plan to ‘rebuild’ (especially since this smacks of expecting to lose in the short term).
Which is what scares me about a 'win now' attitude.
If their going to win with Marshall, the Hawks need a resurgence from Beck, a stellar rookie campaign or a free agent miracle. I don’t want to hold my breath for any of these.
If Seattle is thinking "win now", it should just sell the damn franchise and save us all some grief.
Yeah, I would hate to buy tickets to watch a team trying to win the games I'm paying to see
by lemonverbena on Mar 8, 2010 10:51 AM PST up reply actions
Sure
1. You willingly chose to misinterpret what I wrote.
2. You took that misinterpretation and attempted to attack me
3. You twisted it into the moronic straw man that I was not interested in Seattle winning
4. Doing all this, you conveniently ignored that Seattle really has no choice about winning when they suck.
Gear down buddy, we're just having a conversation
by lemonverbena on Mar 8, 2010 11:00 AM PST up reply actions
Wow John, confused here.
You are the one who called his comments stupid on many levels. Lemon was being sarcastic for sure, but you are the one who took it personal. Am I missing something?
Look what he is doing to this blog
imagine what would happen in a locker room!
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 8, 2010 12:17 PM PST up reply actions
"That's stupid on so many levels."
I think that was a bit of an over-exaggeration. I agree that doing something to win now that could sacrifice the future (especially for this team) might be a huge mistake, but behind the snark lemon was trying to say that, we as fans, want our team to be as successful as possible.
To not trade for possibly-elite WR because our team is not a Super Bowl contender is neither completely smart or completely stupid; there are valid arguments on both sides of the issue.
You can't win now without a quarterback
Quarterbacks take time. If you continue putting off getting a quarterback because they wont help you next year, you will never win now now or later
by B.B.Finnegan on Mar 8, 2010 11:00 AM PST up reply actions
I agree with this
And that if “win now” means adding high-priced veterans to an almost-completed puzzle, that this would be a big miscalculation for Carroll, et al. But because we’ve won 4 and 5 games the last two years doesn’t mean we necessarily have to go into full rebuilding mode.
by lemonverbena on Mar 8, 2010 11:04 AM PST up reply actions
I think this draft, if well played, could be epic for the Hawks.
You made the case on 2/15 that the Hawks are only a few pieces away on offense from a dramatic improvement. I tend to agree. I don’t trust Carroll or Schneider to pull it off, but I have no recourse as a fan but to wait and see.
They could, and I hope they do, but it's still a project.
The Seahawks should not be thinking “win now”, they should be thinking, “what do we have and what do we need to win again?” I never endorse rebuilding, because rebuilding is an excuse for making bad decisions. But Seattle should be attempting to put the best team on the field for 2010, in they way that least sacrifices the future.
I don't think trading away picks
will make it epic.
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 8, 2010 12:44 PM PST up reply actions
Disagree
“Any scenario in which Seattle trade a draft pick or picks for Marshall has greater risk and greater downside than any scenario in which Seattle keeps its picks and invests in its future.”
I don’t have the time nor motivation to research this as well as I should but this comment seems ridiculous to me. How is the drafting of college players come with less risk and more upside than trading one of those first rounders for one of the only two WRs in the entire NFL who has caught over 100 balls in each of the the last three seasons?
Hate to disagree with John because I love his work but thats an erroneous statement.
And the #6 or #14 pick won't have a huge contract?
Uncapped year makes that argument less relevant as they can front-load a new contract for Marshall. Marshall has had character issues since the day he entered the league, and long before, and it has NEVER affected his on-field production.
only the locker room
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 8, 2010 11:13 AM PST up reply actions
I've never been in the Broncos locker room...
but it certainly didn’t prevent Orton or Cutler from throwing to him.
Well, not playing in week 17 would dispute that
And the logic that a problem that has yet to cause consequences will not cause consequences is illogical. I could drink and drive for years and never have an incident, but it’s still stupid and risky.
Malcom Jenkins cost $19 over five years.
Marshall would cost $45-50 million over five years with likely more than $19 million guaranteed. So it’s no comparison, and though Seattle might be able to theoretically front load the contract, we don’t know that they will, and they have stated that they are working under a self-imposed cap.
I wonder to what extent the NFLPA would negotiate for 2010 FA contracts to be grandfathered into a new cap
by lemonverbena on Mar 8, 2010 11:20 AM PST up reply actions
You sound like Ruskell...
by that logic are we to always avoid any player with character concerns because it could blow up? Who at pick 6 or 14 is without significant risk? You are acting as if Marshall has huge risks and the first round picks do not.
How am I doing that...
I simply began my argument by stating Marshall does not come with more downside and risk than selecting a college player at #6 or #14 and I see no reason why that is incorrect.
because most 1st round picks don't have a police record
let alone incident after incident after incident
by B.B.Finnegan on Mar 8, 2010 11:23 AM PST up reply actions
True but..
No college players have three years of NFL production at the level of a top 3 WR.
Let's see, I sound like Ruskell. That makes no sense, but is inflammatory.
“by that logic are we to always avoid any player with character concerns because it could blow up”
Straw man. I never said this. I said character is a risk and must be considered.
“Who at pick 6 or 14 is without significant risk?”
I have no idea how this is even material.
“You are acting as if Marshall has huge risks and the first round picks do not.”
No, I am arguing that Marshall has known character risks and would cost a lot of money, and that a #14 pick would cost considerably less and therefore be a much smaller risk.
Perhaps larger risk in a financial sense...
not in a performance sense. Its hard to argue that a draft pick has less risk of poor performance than Marshall.
Yes, but a huge cap hit is a major risk.
And if Marshall struggles or struggles with behavior, Seattle would probably need to cut him and therefore end up with nothing. A team can be very patient with someone they are only paying a few million dollars.
This is a solid point and great thread so far. I wish we had discussions like this on the Chargers blog.
San Diego sports media is a vast wasteland
by lemonverbena on Mar 8, 2010 11:48 AM PST up reply actions
It is truly awful but at least we get Dick Enberg on Padres games this year.
And, please use the subject line. Gracias!
by lemonverbena on Mar 8, 2010 11:55 AM PST up reply actions
Every year I say Im done watching baseball; and then I end up at the ballpark on opening day. Its like a bad dream with expensive beer.
Use the subject line please.
The Seattle Seahawks offense is driving......right into a brick wall at the end of the tunnel.
other than having needs way greater than WR at this point
I think those top three picks are critical to the development of the team.
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 8, 2010 12:06 PM PST up reply actions
I think a lot of Marshall's prima donna act relates to his feeling underpaid
Give him a fair deal and a new environment and maybe those things get smoothed out.
by lemonverbena on Mar 8, 2010 11:16 AM PST up reply actions
I'm sure Carroll relishes the opportunity to save the young man's soul
by lemonverbena on Mar 8, 2010 11:23 AM PST up reply actions
Then just give him Tony Dungy's number
he can in part his Quiet Strength on him.
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 8, 2010 12:15 PM PST up reply actions
You make a good point
If he were entering the draft with this history, he would be significantly down graded. Probably out of the first round. Does it make sense to give up a first round draft pick to acquire him then? I’m torn to be honest.
He had ok production
from a non-bcs school. I don’t think he’d go first round even without the issues. Even if he had been an elite college WR, he might have been downgraded out of the first round. You never know though, consider the PacMan.
Maybe, I don't know.
But it’s not like Marshall’s talent is hidden. Teams knew he was huge, strong and decently fast, but they also knew he had huge personal problems and barely produced before his senior season.
The draft is a mystery sometimes
Players’ off the field issues can be overlooked when teams fall in love with physical tools. It happens all the time. Then great kids get downgraded because they run a poor 40 time with an intestinal parasite. I’ll never understand what all goes into the process I guess.
I think it depends on the issues
A DUI isn’t as bad as 4 DUI’s, minor in possession of alcohol is pretty common on college campuses.
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 8, 2010 12:53 PM PST up reply actions
Actually
I can’t remember if he was charged, or just caught at a party with beer. It was a non-issue, but so are all MIPs in college.
College kids drink
We just need accept it – football players are no different. I do consider a DUI a big deal.
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
How is this relevant now?
He still has personal problems and despite them has produced three straight seasons. I know you can say past performance doesn’t guarantee future results but that applies to every player and every position.
If he were entering the draft with this history
then yes, i would say he’s not worth a 1st round pick. In the scenario you would have a guy who hasn’t proven that he can play at the NFL level and you would have the character concerns. He’s proven now that he can play at a high level now though.
Im a Charger Fan
But Id would like to take a run at this question. I would argue, that its not worth giving up a first for Marshall. Seattle is really the only team seriously interested. And what no one has mentioned is what happened when his team mate was shot.
Wait a couple weeks and I bet a Marshall could be had for less than a 1st. Its my opinion that Denver wants to move him and Marshall wants to leave much more than it appears.
I read his wikipedia page
His legal problems look eerily similar to Adam ‘PacMan’ Jones. Kind of sobering, even given the source.
He instigated a fight that resulted in his friend getting shot. Even for a real tough guy, that has to weigh on him.
If Seattle signs him, helping him should be their first priority.
I would hire a private psychologist and write mandatory visits into his contract. I believe people can better themselves, but I also think it’s incredibly hard and often takes the forceful caring of others, even if it’s self-serving, Belichickian caring.
It will effect his on-field production when he gets suspended for the next domestic violence dispute
Or is in prison making license plates.
by B.B.Finnegan on Mar 8, 2010 11:19 AM PST up reply actions
I think it makes perfect sense.
Anytime you give such a young man millions of dollars, there is a risk that he’ll do something stupid. A young rookie can afford to make a couple mistakes, Marshall, who already has a history of stupidity, cannot. Marshall slips up even once, he could be suspended 8 games to a whole season due to past behavior. If a rookie makes the same mistake, he might get suspended for 1 game, if any. Also Marshall has more injury concerns than the majority of players we might land with our top picks.
Also, between the #6 or #14 pick, one or both of them are going to have a ton of talent that could potentially match the value of Marshall if they reach their full potential. But even if both picks don’t reach their full potential, they could be worth more overall. Maybe someone like Clausen could never develop into a top 5 QB the way Marshall is a top 5 WR, but even if he just became a top 15 QB he could have just as much value. Same with a LT, we don’t need Walter Jones 2.0, as long as he develops into a solid starting LT, he could have almost as much value as Marshall. And if you combined at top 15 QB and a solid LT, that’s worth more than any WR, at least in my opinion. So I agree with John that the 2 picks have more upside, even without having everthing pan out perfect with the picks.
by Mind of no mind on Mar 8, 2010 3:45 PM PST up reply actions
You mean "Any scenario" where you trade any draft pick at all?
I was more responding to this;
How is the drafting of college players come with less risk and more upside than trading one of those first rounders for one of the only two WRs in the entire NFL who has caught over 100 balls in each of the the last three seasons
If you’re talking about a second round pick or later, then I’d agree that the risk seems worth it.
by Mind of no mind on Mar 8, 2010 3:57 PM PST up reply actions
Look at what teams with young QB's are doing
after the fact. They are adding elite receivers. Baltimore – Boldin, Atlanta – Gonzales, NYJ – Edwards. Could Seattle be jumping the gun and attempting to add an elite receiver, in hopes of landing a young QB in the draft?
YES!
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 8, 2010 11:12 AM PST up reply actions
But they all have talented rosters
Good running backs/running games.
Seattle doesn’t have either of those.
The Seattle Seahawks offense is driving......right into a brick wall at the end of the tunnel.
And I would consider Roddy White to be on the cusp of elite.
The Seattle Seahawks offense is driving......right into a brick wall at the end of the tunnel.
Roddy White is an elite WR.
If the criteria for elite is ’one of the best 5 to 7 wide receivers in the game, Roddy White is an elite receiver. Personally, I think he is the 4th-best WR in football, or, to restate: I would pick 3 WRs ahead of Roddy White: AJ, Fitz, Calvin. Marshall is in that same mix and only downgraded when factoring situation and history. Even then, Marshall is in the top-7, IMO.
I agree with AJ and Fitz...
I would rank Marshall ahead of Calvin
4 seasons to pass 80%
John, wouldn’t you think that part of the value that Marshall provides is helping our QB of the future develop? I would think that giving him some playmakers would lessen the learning curve a little and not put so much pressure on him right away.
Adding Marshall could make a lower-round QB more palatable for me
Not saying I advocate this approach, but adding (for instance) Colt McCoy with our current weapons would not excite me much, but with a playmaker like Marshall (or Spiller, etc) on the roster I might be able to talk myself into it.
Sure, and building the offense up and developing a quarterback is viable strategy
I just think it’s less desirable than building around an elite quarterback talent. I mean, virtually every Super Bowl winning quarterback was drafted in the first round or later went on to the Hall of Fame.
I've seen the wisdom in this argument but am just far from sold on this year's QB crop, is all.
And I have had to root for Rick Mirer. And Dan McGwire. And Kelly Stouffer…
by lemonverbena on Mar 8, 2010 11:51 AM PST up reply actions
Well, McGwire was a tools guy. Mirer was a winner. Stouffer was a winner and held out his entire rookie season.
I think, at least Clausen, fits a more trustworthy profile, and a team can never become gun shy or face permanent rebuilding.
I am open to being swayed on Clausen, having not seen him much other than the UW game.
by lemonverbena on Mar 8, 2010 11:58 AM PST up reply actions
I think the kid's legit
I can see how Clausen busts, particularly on a bad team. He doesn’t have “put a team on his back” talent. But I see him as having pretty manageable downside for a well-run team. I think he’ll be a serviceable starter.
I think the same about Colt McCoy, who reminds me a lot of Hass.
If for some reason we don’t get a QB this year, watch for my guy Blaine Gabbert from Missouri.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
Have to admit that I've been drinking the Jake Locker Kool-Aid
but short of a complete implosion don’t see how the Seahawks could get him in ’11
by lemonverbena on Mar 8, 2010 12:22 PM PST up reply actions
That's why the #14 pick makes sense for me.
We’re not going to find our QB of the future at #14 anyway.
I think Clausen could be it
if we don’t kill him or have him shattered and broken in the process. 50+ sacks a year will ruin anyone.
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 8, 2010 12:10 PM PST up reply actions
David Carr, anyone?
I forget if he was considered to be a franchise type quarterback when he was drafted, but his first few years with the Texans couldn’t have helped his development.
by seattle_since_81 on Mar 8, 2010 2:48 PM PST up reply actions
First overall?
Yeah I’d say he was considered a franchise quarterback….
Yes, a blue-chip QB is my preferred way to go.
I was actually rooting for Sanchez last year, even with all of his question marks. But if things don’t shake out well in the top 10 and neither Bradford or Clausen are available, having a stronger offensive core makes a Plan B QB a little easier to take
Are you sure?
He can part Puget Sound you know.
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 8, 2010 12:14 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Uncle Rico:

How much you wanna make a bet I can throw a football over them mountains?… Yeah… Coach woulda put me in fourth quarter, we would’ve been state champions. No doubt. No doubt in my mind.
Ha, I love people on the internet.
Vince Young as Uncle Rico. How random is that?

by LantermanC on Mar 8, 2010 1:31 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I liked Sanchez
but didn’t want him because I didn’t think we could protect him. The Jets were the perfect team to take him. No one could believe they passed on Leinart or Cutler and went for Ferguson but it made sense.
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 8, 2010 12:14 PM PST up reply actions
We could have protected Sanchez by letting him stay on the bench
Although clipboard related injuries are on the rise
I wouldn't be opposed to protecting Clausen that way
He could be good if we let him develop. Maybe I am bitter Ducks fan but the Lions ruined Joey Harrington.
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 8, 2010 12:47 PM PST up reply actions
He didn't have to though
He wasn’t given the tools to be good – oh wait he you’re a Beaver…
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 8, 2010 12:59 PM PST up reply actions
He didn't need any tools
because he is one.
by G'd Up on Mar 8, 2010 1:06 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
The difference that I see
between Marshall and Branch in their long term value for the Seahawks rests in their skillsets. Branch relies and always has relied on speed and quickness to get open. These skills diminish quickly, and even a small change can often be the difference in getting open or being covered. Marshall, who has elite speed and quickness as well, mainly relies on his size advantage to make plays. At 6’4 230 he physically dominates anybody who covers him. This size advantage will never go away. He will always be bigger and stronger than Cb’s. It is the reason why guys like TO, Moss, Jerivicious, and others are able to contribute well into their 30’s and guys like Steve Smith, Deion Branch and other speedy, diminutive receivers fade earlier.
This is not to say that no small receiver can contribute long term or that being 6’4 guarantees longevity. It is simply to say that speed will fade well before size, and receivers that depend on these traits generally follow suit.
Just remember, you can’t coach size.
by Fightfightfight on Mar 8, 2010 11:46 AM PST reply actions
I don't think that's true. Speed receivers like Harrison, Galloway, Bruce, Holt, Lofton, Reed and Moss
age more gracefully because even as they lose speed, they still have speed.
Branch’s problem is that he never had a ton of speed and has had a ton of speed-sapping injuries. I think Marshall may age more gracefully than Branch, in fact, he probably will, but I disagree with the premise that box-out receivers age more gracefully than speed receivers.
You raise a good point
and looking back at my comment it looks like i undervalued speed, while my intention was to put a premium on size. The ability to be able to get a ball over any single defender is a huge advantage, and one that will not disappear as quickly as being able to get past a defender.
If we add Marshall, I hope it is because we hope to give a young qb a safety net to throw to. Brandon Marshall has great hands and has shown good production from below average qb’s (Cutler in his first years and then Kyle Orton), getting a hundred grabs from each. This bodes well for the young quarterback that I pray every night Seattle will get this year.
by Fightfightfight on Mar 8, 2010 12:05 PM PST up reply actions
It might be more appropriate to say...
Receivers with elite traits age more gracefully than those without them. I don’t mean to sound trite, but it’s not just big guys who age gracefully. It’s big guys who move well and effectively shield defenders from passes that age gracefully. Likewise, real speedsters who effectively utilized their speed age gracefully.
A prime example was Galloway, who was always effective at changing speeds. It wasn’t just that his top end was so high. It’s that he was so sudden. By contrast Anthony Carter was a pure speed receiver who aged (and declined) quickly.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
Another trade option had occured to me...
Denver trades:
Brandon Marshall
2011 first round pick
Seattle trades:
14th pick in 2010 draft
40th pick in 2010 draft
This way we don’t lose a first rounder in the long run but the Broncos would be more inclined to accept a net second rounder.
This draft is deep and the Broncos will likely improve next year but...
still…
by Hawkhammer19 on Mar 8, 2010 12:26 PM PST up reply actions
good point
if we can’t get our QB then it might be a good idea to acquire some resources to move up for Locker next year.
by Hawkhammer19 on Mar 8, 2010 12:31 PM PST up reply actions
By doing stupid things like trading away first round draft picks?
It has keep the Texans in good draft position for a while now.
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 8, 2010 12:48 PM PST up reply actions
If Denver would be daft enough to give us yet another first round pick......
The Seattle Seahawks offense is driving......right into a brick wall at the end of the tunnel.
Good news
Marshall leaves Seattle without an offer
sorry if that looks weird I don’t know html tags.
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
That's one hurdle cleared
At least the new front office isn’t completely moronic. That’s good to know.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
Marshall can go where he wants except Arizona, SF, and St. Louis.
The Seattle Seahawks offense is driving......right into a brick wall at the end of the tunnel.
Not at all surprising
I think the goal was to woo Marshall, not to woo Denver into a trade.
If Marshall wasn’t interested in playing for Seattle, the rest is completely moot considering there’s only year left on his contract.
6/14/40. Sweet.
Oh shit, you're right.
I meant if we signed him to an offer sheet, he’d only be with us for a year. I think.
Crap, I’m so upside down right now.
6/14/40. Sweet.
If we signed him to an offer sheet it'd depend on the offer sheet
but I don’t think you’ll ever see a one year offer sheet
Is Marshall "highest and best use" of limited resources (picks and money)?
I’m just sort of thinking this through at my keyboard, so bear with me…
Initially, my thoughts were to get talent entering it’s prime when you can get it. The only thing that matters is cost. Now, I’m thinking differently.
The question I ask myself is: how likely is Brandon Marshall to be a significant contributor to the next Hawks teams that are consistently in the playoffs? The most optimistic scenario, I would think, is that two seasons from now Seattle will contend again.
Marshall should still be good, but closer to the end of his prime than the start. All things equal, I’d rather have someone entering his prime when we contend again rather than at the tail end. Contention is fickle. Sometimes teams don’t win when they are at their best. Sometimes you need the right matchup or a lucky break. I’d rather have more seasons of a player’s prime than fewer to play with.
At this point, Denver would have to make me an offer I can’t refuse. Basically, they’d have to pay me to take him—not because first round picks are so much better, but because I’m way more than one player away. I suspect that Brandon Marshall may be available again in two seasons, and at less of a premium.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
Marshall as a UFA will command much more $$
Without a trade required to get him, you can bet multiple teams would be in on him and drive the price way up.
Nobody decides when a team contends...
…and nobody today knows what four teams will play in the championship next year.
The only thing we know for certain is that it is impossible to predict the success (or lack there of) of any team, let alone the entire league, year to year.
That being the case, Seattle makes the best decision based on it’s resources, priorities and opportunities. Signing Marshall is an opportunity, and should be done for the right price (and I am thinking no more than a second and 5th round pick this year, but that’s just me).
The point is, they should draft the best player at #6 for both the near and long term. The idea of timing aquisitions for some future season when Seattle might contend is senseless. They might win the west next year and contend. They might make it to the championship game in 2010 with Hass and then not make the playoffs for the next five years.
Some things cannot be known with 100% certainty...
but good organizations know the difference between low and high odds of success—or at least they better.
Seattle lacks the kind of talented core at the key positions (QB, LT, WR, RB) necessary to seriously contend. As a consequence, Seattle needs to make an assessment of any potential FA’s peak production years, and how that coincides with having a core in place that can contend in place. It’s silly to ignore that. Going year-to-year with Brett Favre makes more sense for Minnesota than Oakland.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
An angle we haven't been considering is Marshall's fan appeal.
This team is, so I’ve heard, hurting in fan confidence and ticket sales. The front office probably sees the acquisition of a big-name player like Marshall as a way of fixing that. No questions the guy is going to sell tickets and jerseys.
It might also influence the team’s appeal to free agents. Perhaps Marshall’s presence could ease contract talks with a potential new QB (Clausen, COUGH) who’s apprehensive about stepping into the situation here.
a few years ago we had one of the most intense fan bases
I think the unknowns of Carroll and company are more of a factor.
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
Yes, but wouldn't Spiller at #14 have equal fan appeal?
Fan appeal for signings may increase ticket sales during the offseason, but if the move doesn’t end up looking good, the fan base can turn fast.
Sure, absolutely, but again, getting one doesn't mean not getting the other.
And Marshall is a proven commodity (off-field stuff notwithstanding) and thus the FO can bank on him making at least a few highlight-reel plays to get your average joe thinking “hey, this team is fun to watch!”.
Spiller may very well also be able to do so, but as a rookie there’s a lot of risk. Not saying that I personally think so… but I’m positive that the FO would like to get at least one flashy piece of the puzzle down right.
I'm a fan of winning.
If we’re not winning, I want to watch elite players compete. Marshall could help both areas of interest.
If we're not winning, I want to be losing because the talent on the field is still growing.
I don’t want to be losing because we’ve invested too many resources into the the wrong players or the right players at the wrong times.
I might be a total homer
but I don’t think this team is that far out of contention. In particular, the defense seems poised for visible improvement if our offense can put them in better situations.
I hate locking into positions before the draft, but it seems like taking Clausen at 6 and a Left Tackle at 14, coupled with adding Brandon Marshal turns the offense around immediately. Give the rookies a year to develop and in their second seasons they’ll have a 26 year old stud in Marshal to work with, right?
We're not far from being better than we have been
I don’t think contention to be going back to the Super Bowl will happen for a while, the NFC West is up for grabs and we can win Wild Card games we have no business winning.
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
Total.
Homer :)
Our talent base is very uneven.
Defense: Love our LBs. Like our DL depth. Our back four is very, very spotty.
Offense: We lack quality depth on any unit. We have some nice value players on the interior offensive line (assuming we don’t lose any of our RFAs). Hasselbeck is, if nothing else, a very high injury risk. We are below average at WR and RB. We have a nice TE but no depth at all.
Could everything break right in what looks to be another watered down NFC West? Sure, but it’d be fool’s gold.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
assuming we don't makes this draft FUBAR
and never underscore how bad the NFC West is…and Qwest Field on a rainy Saturday night.
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
I agree
I’m not sure where we have ranked with injuries the last couple of years but we at least have to be in upper third. The majority of our OL was injured going into the season and then when Matt was hurt, it really didn’t matter that the OL got healthy because the damage had been done. The same thing happened with our secondary when Trufant went down before training camp, the other CBs had to move up a level which meant they were over their heads. I think Grant is an average to above average safety but he and a learning Babs were not going to be able to cover up the CBs.
Other than Walter, the injuries were flukey rather than bodies breaking down. So if you assume regression to the mean for injuries along with reinforcements from the draft, I think we can challenge for the NFC West. This puts more of an emphasis on drafting Clausen this year because if I am right, we won’t have access to elite QB prospects next year with an 8-8 or 9-7 year.
I know that the 2008 season
Was historically bad regarding injuries.
Talents that I covet:
Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Sam Bradford, Mike Iupati, Golden Tate, Earl Thomas, and Freddie Barnes
by Carl Shinyama on Mar 9, 2010 7:42 AM PST up reply actions
that's true for Locklear, but it's a pretty untalented group
McIntosh and Willis are Guards stuck playing tackle, Willis missed most of the last two seasons. I don’t think either is an elite talent. Locklear could move over to the right and be good enough.
I don’t see Steve Vallos and Mike Gibson emerging as true starting talents.
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 9, 2010 10:39 AM PST up reply actions
Quick note: Posting will continue to be light through this next week, but will resume to normal levels next Tuesday.
That's because you're going to be at the VMAC getting this deal hammered out, right?
It's Great to be a Florida Gator!
"I never met a llama I didn't like." - TJ Duckett
by Wayward Llama on Mar 8, 2010 2:49 PM PST up reply actions
Elite QB for Seattle in 2010
One of the recurring themes in this thread is the need for Seattle to obtain an elite QB. The assumption seems to be that Clausen is the guy.
Seattle will not have the opportunity to draft Clausen (or Bradford) for the following reasons:
1 – the Rams will likely draft Bradford or Clausen (that is, they will not trade down, but if they do that would be Seattle’s best chance)
2 – Washington will draft the 2nd QB in the draft (Bradford/Clausen – whoever the Rams don’t take)
3 – without trades, this leaves no QB available at 6
4 – if Seattle tries to trade up with Detroit for a QB, Washington will outbid them for the trade. This is the most likely situation – that Seattle forces Washington to trade up with Detroit. The reason that a Detroit/Washington trade most likley is that not only does Detroit gain another pick in the draft by trading down two spots, they still get the player they want (Okung) only cheaper. Trading with Seattle, even if the picks are better, means that KC gets Okung and Detroit has to take the second LT, and there appears to be a big drop-off between Okung and the second).
The good news in this scenario...
…is that either Berry or McCoy will be available at 6, and selecting either of these guys makes Seattle’s defense much better. They are both elite prospects, and while neither of them equivilent to a franchise QB, it doesn’t matter because won’t be available…
…unless Seattle gets very aggressive and convinces the Rams to trade out of the 1 spot, in which case Seattle gets whichever QB it thinks better. Based on the argument above, this move may be a far better use of Seattle’s picks than using them on Marshall.
Do you really think Washington will draft Clausen after resigning Campbell?
Seems silly to me. The Skins have a lot of holes.
But it was just a one year deal, so who knows?
GMs say one thing and then do something else all the time. I’m not saying I think the Redskins will draft a QB, but I think it’s possible.
I’m warming up to the idea of no Bradford or Clausen (relative to before where I’d be pretty disappointed). Tebow, if nothing else, will be very interesting, and I would like to see Pike or Canfield given a chance.
I'm really hoping a pass rushing DE jumps into the top five
Like Tyson Jackson last year. Shakes everything up, Clausen (or Bradford) drops into our hands. Even if a team needs a QB, both of those DT’s or Okung will be very hard to pass up.
You think St. Louis and Washington will draft a quarterback
but you don’t know. And other than guesses and assumptions to support your conjecture, you have no more information than anyone else. So instead of telling us how the draft will unfold, let’s assume it’s still maybe possible that Seattle can draft a quarterback at six.
Of course I don't know...
…any more than any poster on this site knows anything that will happen in the draft or the future.
I am making a reasoned argument based on what we know now. We know that the Rams have the first pick in the draft and signed AJ Feeley – a career backup QB. We know (for all the reasons you argue) that it is very difficult for a team to contend without a good QB. We know that Bulger is not worth the $8+mil he is due next year, that he has cleaned out his locker, that he will likely be cut by the team. All this strongly suggests that the Rams will draft who they think the best QB in the draft.
We know that Detroit signed two d-linemen – making it far more likely they draft an LT – and the top LT in the draft seems to be Okung. We know that Detroit has indicated their willingness to trade down.
We know that Jason Campbell is a mediocre QB without the elite talent necessary to take the Redskins to a SB – and perhaps more importantly, we know that Snyder believes that to be the case. We know that Snyder will go to extrordinary lengths to get the players he thinks will take the Skins to the SB. This makes it very likely that the Redskins will draft (or trade up) to take one of the two elite QBs in the draft.
Is that better? Does that provide more substance to my prediction that a QB won’t be available to Seattle in the upcoming draft?
Of course, anything can happen between now and the draft...
….like the Rams trade for McNabb, for example, and that would definitely change the top of the draft.
Perhaps the Skins come up with a QB solution, and that would obviously change their draft strategy.
My problem is only that your original post was absolute.
You said, this is how the draft is going to go down, and I think that’s a frustrating attitude.
Here's my (sincere) retraction:
Seattle MAY not have the opportunity to draft Clausen (or Bradford) for the following reasons
The other end of this thought process goes towards this issue of contending anytime soon.
It seems that Berry or McCoy will be available at #6. Either of these players goes a long ways (everything else being equal) of greatly improving Seattle’s ability to defend the pass, either through better coverage (Berry) or improved pass rush (McCoy).
Again, not as compelling as nabbing a franchise QB, but not all bad either.
I think we have to take a franchise QB and Tackle at 6 & 14
depending on which is available
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
If "we know" that Campbell cannot get to the SB, why did the Skins resign him?
Seems to me that if Snyder and co. really think Campbell is only OK and want to draft a QB, they’d be better off ditching Campbell and signing a vet. The presence of Campbell on a team that has a newly acquired rookie QB can only be a distraction for both the team and the fan base.
This would create a QB controversy that most teams go to great lengths to avoid.
I see it quite unlikely that the Redskins draft a QB that high with all the holes they have.
djafrot
We’ll see, I suppose. But isn’t the conventional wisdom NOT to throw your big-money rookie future franchise QB to the wolves (ala Carr)? To prevent that, you have the other guy (in this case Campbell) to take the hits until your new guy is ready.
Who knows? But everything I have read and seen points towards Washington going hard at Clausen or Bradford. If they don’t, or if the Rams don’t, then obviously Seattle will have the opportunity to draft one of these guys.
I'm not sure what the conventional wisdom is
but quarterbacks who start right away have statistically done better than quarterbacks who sat for before playing.
Intuitively that makes sense to me.
Let a QB take his lumps in his younger years and by the time his peak physical years roll around, he’s acclimated to the league.
But it could be because those that start right away are those that are better
or more polished at the collegiate level.
Those are special QB's are they an exception?
Favre, Brady, and Brees all sat for a year and will be Hall of Famers, but again these are all special talents.
Romo, Rivers, Palmer, Manning (the younger), and Roders all sat for a year or more and turned out okay, none will be Hall of Famers but could easily be a major piece of a Super Bowl winning team (yes, I know that is assuming teams like the Bengals don’t suck and the Chargers and Cowboys don’t choke.)
I don’t see any of these QB’s coming out who will be a once in a lifetime talent, but could Clausen turn into a Rivers or Rodgers, yes.
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 9, 2010 10:28 AM PST up reply actions
It's not that quarterbacks who don't start right away aren't good or talented
It’s that quarterbacks who do start right away do so because they’re very talented.
None of these guys in this class fit that mold
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 9, 2010 11:11 AM PST up reply actions
You don't like the statement?
Or you don’t agree with the sentiment?
My view of statistics dimmed when a women’s shelter made a flyer about the number of women who had been battered by their husbands in a specific year in the United States. when it was brought to their attention that there were not that many married women in the United States at that time, the shelter said they may have added to the numbers to make sure people realized how important the issue was.
When someone says that studies show that “some men show improvement in mobility” when using their product, it also means that some men didn’t.
What I am saying is that 1) some stats are made up, like Steve Smith’s combine numbers on Wikipedia, and 2) some stats can be used to suggest different things, and be equally true.
Studies that show that "some men show improvement in mobility" when using their product, it also means that some men didn’t. That’s not a lie, it’s using statistics in a form that will help a company, rather than hurt it. Instead of saying a product causes cancer in a specific percentage of patients, ads say the product “may” cause cancer. And they only mention that because they have to.
When it comes to football, I’ve been hearing people argue one way or another about Wallace. I think if you look at specific stats, you’ll see a good player, and other stats, you’ll see a bad player. It all depends on what you’re looking for. If you are trying to say he’s good, you’ll mention that in 2008, he had 11 touchdowns and 3 interceptions, and didn’t even start the year as a starter! If you are trying to say he isn’t good, you’ll mention that he only won 5 games and lost 7 as a starter for the Seahawks. Both of these are true. But you will only use the one that makes your point for you.
If you read "some men show improvement in mobility" and you use that to believe that the product works 100% of the time,
you’re the one making the mistake. This has nothing to do with statistics. You are using the fabrication of numbers in one case and your own misunderstanding of the word “some” as a means to discredit all use of numbers.
Sources matter. If you don’t understand statistical analysis or just aren’t a numbers person, fine, but don’t use erroneous examples to attempt to discredit something you don’t like.
You're right about some if it.
I’m not a great numbers person. I don’t fully believe statistics, especially knowing that whatever numbers we’re using at a given time may or may not be fabricated, which makes the exercise nearly futile. And I did use examples that were poor. I was tired, and should have waited to make comments until I was ready.
But that doesn’t mean I’m wrong about statistics being able to say whatever a person wants them to say. Many people approach stats already having a point-of-view on the subject. Stats that make our points are used to prove our points, rather than looking at the stats in order to determine what we think. Not always, of course.
Mentioning that “some” can be used to mask a statistic is not wrong, and it doesn’t imply that I don’t know the meaning of the word “some.” I also did not mention that anybody would read that to mean “100%” only that it might lead some to believe it is more successful than it is. One person’s some is another person’s “few” and another’s “many.”
And it doesn’t mean that just because QB’s who start right away have a better success rate, that there isn’t another reason for that success. The point I wanted to make was pertaining to the comment that QB’s who start right away have better success (not specifically a stat, but an assertion based on stats.) Compiling stats on success rate based solely on how soon a prospect starts will leave out a lot of important and true information. As in, did this QB start sooner because he had the tools, experience, and ability to succeed right away? A coach, usually, is more likely to start a QB if he thinks he’s ready to start.
It is impossible for us to determine if QB’s who start right away are successful because they started sooner, or if they started sooner because they were predisposed to be more successful. Proof of causality is often difficult to determine, and in this case, what I intended to say was that the stats are sound, but do not necessarily mean anything without context and without knowing that they could be meaningless.
As Mark Twain famously said:
“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”
In other words, Twain and I are talking about how numbers can be used to make a weak argument look better, and people tend to downplay statistics that do not support their arguments. Statistics in and of themselves are not lies (unless they’re made up, and how often that happens, I couldn’t say, but I’m sure there are statistics on that) but they can be used to support a multitude of opinions.
I realize that football is a game of statistics, to an extent, but when we lose the truth to the stats, I have a hard time dealing with those numbers.
Statistics are only as valid as the data and method of their derivation allows them to be.
QB Rating, for instance, is a silly statistic that does a very poor job of isolating the performance of the quarterback from the outcomes of the offense in general. It’s a bad stat and shouldn’t be used as proof of good QB play.
I didn't say that it should be used as proof.
I said it IS used as proof, and people buy into it. Otherwise, nobody would mention it, and nobody would go to the trouble of doing the math to determine what the rating is.
Yes, stats “are only as valid as the data and method of their derivation allow” them to be. I agree.
My entire point is that people use stats to prove what they want to prove. Stats are being used all over this page to determine if Marshall is worth grabbing, and I’m just saying I don’t trust stats because they are often being used in an attempt to mask other performance markers. Stats are used to tell a story, and people use the stats they want to use to tell the story they want to tell. Some people don’t go through the trouble to determine if the stats are telling the WHOLE story.
However, most of my writing on this subject on this board came when I was not in a position to be making assertions—frankly, my arguments sucked, and were unnecessary. Your points are valid.
Those people are stupid and you shouldn't pay attention to them.
That said, because those people are stupid doesn’t mean that you should write off statistical analysis as a whole. There’s good stuff being done with stats, and using a broad brushtroke to dismiss all of it is silly.
I agree.
But it won’t stop people from using it as a stat that proves good QB play, and it won’t stop (some) people from believing that it does, indeed, directly correlate to good quarterback play.
Why re-sign Campbell for something like that if your team is unlikely to be competing?
Go grab some freely available QB off the scrap heap and let Campbell walk.
Why would Washington want to lose him for nothing?
Doesn’t hurt to keep him around while you have his rights.
I think I didn't quite explain my point.
I’m saying it’s a bad idea for the Redskins to keep Campbell AND draft a rookie pick high because it will create a QB controversy. Campbell was someone the Skins paid dearly for, and as such if he’s still around when rookie QB shows up it will get messy.
They’d be better off ridding themselves of Campbell (and get something for him) and picking up some older vet who isn’t a long-term threat to the rookie QB.
I did read quite a bit that said Washington was big on a QB… but that was before Campbell was re-signed.
Just a one or two pieces away...
…is the sense I get from the Redskins organization. They have a lot of talent, one of the better defenses, and perhaps one or two good players away from seriously contending. And QB is foremost among their needs, and of course the most difficult position to fill.
If they're trying to win now... drafting a QB would be the worst move.
They’d be way better off starting Campbell and helping him out with some talent. Sure, they’ve tried this in the past (three WR’s in one draft) but God do they suck at it.
Hmm… maybe they’d be in the market for Hass. We’ll swap Hass for Campbell.
That'll be what they do then...
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 9, 2010 11:11 AM PST up reply actions
That has been their status since 1991
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 9, 2010 11:13 AM PST up reply actions
They might be trying to get a draft pick out of him via a trade
If they just let him go, they get nothing. Plus, 3.1 million isn’t a lot to keep him around another year. That doesn’t prevent them from drafting a QB first, although it might make Campbell force a trade if they do.
I could see that, yes.
And it would be smart. Smart like we weren’t with Burleson.
or waiting until after the draft for a 2011 early pick
could it be they are doing something smart for a change?
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 9, 2010 11:12 AM PST up reply actions
INCREDIBLE ARTICLE!
This is one of the best articles I have read in ages! Dead on spot and made some great valid points with stats and numbers to back them up! Thank you J.M
I'd be okay with Kolb if it doesn't cost us any combo using 6,14, or 40
for as many unknowns as he has I’d rather take someone at 40.
Give me an offensive line or give me death!
by Generzal Zod on Mar 10, 2010 10:06 AM PST up reply actions
I'm pretty sure anyone we take at 40 will have more unknowns than Kolb.
After all, he HAS played in the NFL.

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