If Aaron Curry is Not Seattle's Starting Elephant, Why Trade Darryl Tapp?
by John Morgan on Apr 28, 2010 4:29 PM PDT
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PrintSeattle drafted Aaron Curry fourth overall in 2009. He is, in all likelihood, still Seattle's best overall talent. In a mid-January interview shortly after his hire, Pete Carroll suggested Seattle may play Curry as an elephant or standup defensive end. To paraphrase, instead of rushing 20% and dropping 80%, Curry would rush 80% and drop 20%. I have reservations. I have concerns Curry will never fully develop as a pass rusher, but nevertheless, I was thrilled. Re-purposing Seattle's best talent to play its most important position on defense seemed a worthy try. At worst, he wouldn't develop. At best, Seattle could have an elite young pass rusher.
Seattle then traded its best pass rusher and replaced him with Chris Clemons and a gaggle of camp bodies. If Curry replaced Darryl Tapp, it wouldn't matter, but if Tapp was replaced by Clemons, we would have a problem. Clemons-Cole-Mebane-Jackson is perhaps the worst starting defensive line in the NFL. Substituting Tapp for Clemons does not make it good, but it does replace a situational pass rusher with a legitimate defensive end. Tapp can hold the edge. Tapp can close the hole. Tapp was a defensive end, complete, tested, not a journeyman situational pass rusher with three career starts. Plainly put, if a team starts a 240 pound right defensive end, its opponent will run at him and will not stop until it fails. That is why it doesn't happen. That is why, in part, Clemons has only started three games in his six-year NFL career.
If Seattle is forced out of starting one of its standup ends, it doesn't have a traditional right defensive end to replace him with. It doesn't have the two-gap guys to run a traditional 3-4. It doesn't have ends with length to control the edge. As of today, it doesn't have the personnel to fill out its starting seven.
The obvious, even hinted at, solution would be starting Curry at elephant. However, I'm not counting on it. This happens every season, it seems. Seattle signs Deon Grant and then plays him in the box. Seattle signs Brian Russell and starts him. Seattle signs Colin Cole, trades for Cory Redding, starts Cole and starts Redding at end. I think I follow the moves, follow the logic, but I'm wrong. And I anticipate I'm wrong about Curry. I anticipate Curry will start at outside linebacker, Clemons will start at end, and I will have no idea why.
It's not that I think Curry is a lock to develop as a pass rusher. It's only that I want a clear direction for him, a chance to commit to a position, and a chance to maximize his talent. I thought Curry showed growth as a pass rusher in his first season. Curry, like everyone on the Seahawks, didn't record many sacks. He did time his blitzes well, turn the corner well and contribute if not consistent sacks, consistent pressure and stuffs. He had five tackles for a loss and nine quarterback hits. He, along with Geno Hayes, led the NFL among 4-3 linebackers in quarterback hits. It was a start. For a young player with immense talent, it was a satisfactory start.
Blind side pass rusher, be it an outside linebacker or defensive end, is the most important position on a defense. It's so important, it has spawned an equally highly paid foil: the left tackle. I wasn't happy that Seattle traded Tapp but I assumed it was a part of a bigger plan. Curry is more talented than Tapp. Curry is more expensive than Tapp. If maximizing Curry cost Seattle Tapp, it would be a debatable but justifiable move. Now I am perplexed. Seattle never had to play a standup end. Carroll runs a 4-3 and starting a standup end in a 4-3 is a variation designed to accommodate mismatched talent. It's atypical. Carroll found a position for Clay Matthews because Matthews was too good to sit, but when Matthews left, Carroll reverted to a base 4-3.
Curry is that kind of talent. Clemons, Foley, Reed and Davis are not. Put it another way, that's a non-drafted free agent, CFL standout and two seventh-round picks. Is Carroll altering his scheme to get Clemons on the field? That doesn't sound right, does it? Did Carroll and Schneider sell low on Tapp to acquire and start Clemons? I want to say no. I balked at Seattle moving Julian Peterson but thought adding a capable and unheralded three tech would help soften the loss. Instead, Seattle made Redding an end. It didn't work.
So I don't know. I'm confused. This looks like a bad situation unfolding. Who starts? Who starts if Clemons is injured? What is the future of Aaron Curry? Where will Seattle generate its pass rush? On paper, it looks worse today than it did last season. On paper, I'm very hard pressed to find a worse starting defensive line in the NFL. I'm interested to see how this all shakes out, but if history tells me anything, I won't like it, I won't understand it, and it will happen exactly as reported.
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Trade Curry?
If we aren’t using him correctly – in a way that maximizes his abilities – we should probably trade him. He’s still young and healthy and a very desirable talent out there. We could find something that works better for us AND Curry.
I’m still not sure what I think about a 3-4 Defense (low football IQ), but It seems as though Mebane is going to have to really dominate if its going to work.
Still, I’m holding out hope that PC will recognize the talent and put him in situations where he will be able to dominate.
But we ARE using Curry correctly
In that he is a 4-3 OLB on a team that will still run a 4-3 defense. It’s just that Curry could be even better at SDE…..A lineup of Jackson/Cole/Mebane/Curry and then Hill/Tatupu/Heater or Herring is better than any alternative we have. Anyway, there isn’t too much demand for a 4-3 OLB, even if he is as awesome as Curry. Probably can’t get equal value, so why not just play him? Curry is going to start and contribute, no matter what.
You paint a grim picture.
It’s odd that the failure to maximize talent by putting it in improper positions transcends coaching staffs. I wonder if this is a symptom of having “football guys” in charge. Pete Carroll never struck me as being that rigid though.
I guess we’ll have to wait ’til Friday/Training Camp to find out.
This is exactly what I've been thinking.
Only better. Maybe they want to conceal the Curry Elephant plans, though. I’m sure he’ll get snaps at it, before training camp wraps up. Hopefully sooner. Just to see. But Carroll and now Bradley have both said, Curry will focus on being an SLB. Which possibly — in the under scheme, on the line against the TE, a blitzing position — is as much a replacement for pass rush as anything. Wouldn’t explain why we apparently deliberately accumulated 240 .lbs guys to play end on the line, though.
I can only offer a weak stab
but if they were convinced Tapp was not the long term answer, the time to move him would be this year, when the draft was allegedly the deepest in years. Getting a 4th in a draft where a 4th equates to a typical 3rd, plus getting a guy that might give them something, might be better than holding out for a 3rd next year.
I’m not necessarily buying it either. I do think that PC clearly recognizes talent. So whether the plan is a good one or not, I don’t think he’s deluding himself into thinking Clemons is an upgrade at all.
Curry might be playing a more typical 4-3 SLB to prevent a mismatch on Vernon Davis. I’m not sure I believe it either, but from an athletic perspective, they are both freaks, and Davis is on the verge of becoming dominant.
Which is the stupidest idea I’ve ever heard. Nevermind.
by PerryCollective on Apr 28, 2010 5:19 PM PDT reply actions
I think DE is still a work in progress.
We accumulated as many draft picks as possible. We could have been in a position to trade some of them if the player we wanted was in jeopardy. While we managed to really obliterate needs at safety and running back and stop the bleeding at WR, we still need a solid backup for right or left offensive tackle, a starting defensive tackle and starting defensive end. I’m not sure piling up smaller late round DEs was deliberate as much as it was the only option left. Maybe we’ll find a Milloy-like solution for those positions in the short term.
Tapp may have made our existing line better but wouldn’t we still be among the worst in the league?
by BurtonOerney on Apr 28, 2010 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Even worse than Jacksonville?
Jacksonville couldn’t even get pressure through a 4th string LT. Would be be talking that level of futility?
They added Kampman, who should be good for a season or two. Alualu, Harvey is not a lost cause...
Yeah. I think it’s likely the Seahawks are worse.
Our defensive line is not very good
And it was the thing I was least impressed by about our stellar draft. But one thing you are missing from your write-up is the Hill situation. Would Curry be playing SLB had Hill not been busted for weed and domestic violence? It’s hard to know what Carroll’s plans would have been if Hill was not having legal issues right now and facing a likely suspension. Tapp was not a fit for our system and I know most people feel differently but I don’t think he was a great pass rusher and is, to put it politely, a little “big boned” for the elephant position. Ideal elephants are like 6’3" 250lbs range not the squat, step-slow 6’1" 270lbs range.
Also the Eagles don’t seem to be too excited on Tapp or they wouldn’t have given up 2 3rd round picks to move up in the 1st to grab Brandon Graham. Tapp is good fit for their base 4-3 where he can be brought in on a rotation. He’s no Charles Haley clone. Dexter Davis is more that prototypical size and speed. 6’2" 250lbs and 4.62s in the 40. So is Clay Matthews, so is Aaron Curry. But I think that Hill situation really threw a monkey wrench in the plans for Curry at elephant.
Tapp wouldn't have to play elephant. He could play end, like a typical 4-3.
As for Hill, I certainly hope Carroll is not changing his long term plans for Curry because of Hill. Seattle can fill a single outside linebacker position.
I think they had to be thinking Curry for the spot
He really is an ideal elephant. But that SLB in his defense has to be good. When Matthews was playing the elephant, it was his best linebacker, Cushing, who was playing SLB. They are also usually responsible for covering the TE. We will be facing some pretty good TEs this year (Davis, Gates, Gonzalez, Olsen, Shockey). Plus they are responsible for that stong side of the field. The elephant is more where you can throw an inexperienced guy like they did with Matthews at USC and just let them go after it.
But it’s true. Defenses will probably just run at our weak side to counter our lack of quality there,
Absolutely.
I think you are on track with what Carroll is doing. This is a confusing time to judge the scheme and the players, but you are right to look at what Carroll did at USC:
Overload the weak side with small fast pass-rushers. what does that mean? It means that the #1 most important job of the defense (stuffing the strong-side run) now falls to fewer players. Who do we need over there at SOLB? 240-lb Leroy Hill? 238-lb David Hawthorne? No. We need 254-lb Aaron Curry. We need a big fast man on the strong side and that’s Aaron. And, he can blitz from the strong side.
So, do we have a great speed rusher to man the RDE? Heck no. Did you expect we were going to fill all the holes on this team in only one year. Of course you didn’t. So Carroll and Schneider are staffing as many positions they can with talent, including the perfect SOLB for their scheme – Aaron Curry. But they still don’t have a great RDE.
Carroll will throw a bunch of young fast kids at the RDE position this year and find out who excels. Probably none of them. Next year they will prioritize finding the RDE of the future.
"Football players are temperamental. That's 90 percent temper and 10 percent mental." - Doug Plank
I thought that Hill was supposed to be a pretty good blitzer.
If he stays out of jail/Goodell’s doghouse would he be a possible elephant?
Not sure I agree...
I do agree that Curry is fast and violent – but I like that he can do all of these things:
1) Open field and RB/bubble screen destroyer
2) Holds off blocks and destroys (most) TEs
3) Is a better than average blitzer
4) Can cover average and below TEs (and might get better with more work, because he has the speed)
I think that when we see #3, we think he might rock coming off of the edge. And that could be true. But I think that he could be nearly as productive from a pressure/havoc point on QBs and give us the rest from SLB.
by PerryCollective on Apr 29, 2010 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions
I think they like Curry on the TE side because they like his ability to fight through traffic and double teams
If I understand correctly what Carroll’s been saying. Whereas on the LT side, I think they want fast players who can get around the LT one on one.
by B.B.Finnegan on Apr 29, 2010 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions
Makes sense
I was thinking pretty much the same thing, I guess I just disagreed with the “he makes an ideal elephant” part. I think that not only is he suited for SLB, but if he’s more comfortable there, that should help get the most out of him too.
It doesn’t fix our pass rush need, but at least it’s not trying to patch that problem by creating 2 smaller ones.
It’s also a big reason why I’m fine with drafting Thomas over Morgan – if he didn’t seem like a good value/fit, it’s irrelevent that we need a DE. I love that they stayed with their board instead of going for the glamorous pick.
by PerryCollective on Apr 29, 2010 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Doubt that Occam
He said himself that Tapp stood out to him, and they watched enough film on each player to get a clear idea of what they could do. Or are you calling Pete a liar!?
ha ha..
You jest, but I do doubt he lingered very long on the defense, esp with its record over the last couple years.
No he probably spent many many hours going over tape
With Gus Bradley and Dan Quinn. Gus and Dan would know Tapp very well. They probably decided that Tapp didn’t really have a place in the defense they were designing.
exactly - people never mention that Gus Bradley would have an opinion
It’s clear that Tapp just didn’t fit with what they wanted to accomplish.
Yes
Tapp was a good player for us. But, a little too short and a little too slow = not what Carroll and Bradley want at RDE. Let’s move on and see how his scheme looks in camp. A little more speed in our defense could be a beautiful thing.
"Football players are temperamental. That's 90 percent temper and 10 percent mental." - Doug Plank
He wasn't as fast as the guys Carroll is bringing in.
"Football players are temperamental. That's 90 percent temper and 10 percent mental." - Doug Plank
I had the same reaction as Nate Dogg,
But you are right. He’s not as fast as the guys Carroll is bringing in. You might have something there.
I don't think that there is a way to quanitfy who is faster in terms of pass rush speed
But the point is that the guys that the FO are bringing in are for speed. It is safe to say that the FO thinks that they are faster than Tapp.
My appoligies
I should have said IMO in there. Its just a guess, but it fits the sitution and the moves that the FO has made.
He absolutely is slow for a weakside DE in the 4-3
He ran a 4.83 40-yard dash coming out of college. That is slow.
Link?
cbs sportsline has him a 4.83 at the combine
NFLDraftScout, which is CBS Sports
4.71 at his pro day, didn’t run at the combine.
Agility Tests
Campus: 4.71 in the 40-yards dash … 415-pound bench press … 660-pound back squat (team record) … 321-power clean … 360-pound push jerk … 34.5-inch vertical jump … 33 7/8-inch arm length … 10 -inch hands … 18/42 Wonderlic score.
That's not his Pro Day - that's his coaches timing him in college
Kind of like how Jake Locker has been timed at 4.4 at UW and Taylor Mayes at sub-4.3 at USC. Far from official legit times.
That info is straight off the Virginia Tech website:
http://www.hokiesports.com/football/players/2005/tapp.html
All I can find on his Pro Day is one Wikipedia and they say he ran a 4.8.
Wiki says he ran a 4.71. That website you linked says he ran a 4.71.
2002: A true freshman who saw his fair share of playing time on both defense and special teams … Saw action in all 14 games … Recorded nine solo tackles and 12 assists … Also had three quarterback hurries and a pass broken up … Scored the game’s first touchdown against Virginia, scooping up a blocked punt and returning it 11 yards for the score … Earned Super Iron Hokie honors in the strength and conditioning program during off-season workouts … Posted a 380-pound bench press and 530-pound back squat … Added a 32 1/2-inch vertical jump and a 4.71 time in the forty
What am I missing?
Exactly
The 4.71 time was not at the combine and not at his Pro Day.
College players get timed in 40’s by their teams. These are unofficial times. That’s what this 4.71 time is – an unofficial stopwatch time taken by his college coaches.
The reason I know that’s what it is is that exact paragraph comes off of the Virginia Tech website under his bio, and they’re talking about his squat record, bench press, etc.
By the way the wikipedia lists his Pro Day at 4.80… you didn’t read far enough down the page.
Whatever - he runs a 4.8
I did not change the wiki page, but it’s true, it’s not really a legit source.
The only actual legit info out there is his 4.83 combine time.
Darryl Tapp is slow.
I'm finding lots of places that has Tapp at 4.71
but I can’t find anything, including in the link you provided, that has him at a 4.80 dash. I’m inclined to go with Nate Dogg on this one.
I guess you guys can believe what you want
The 4.71 places are all quoting the same bio that was written by the PR department at Virginia Tech – the reason I provided that link was to show the original source of the 4.71 time. You guys completely missed my point.
Here is a link to his combine time of 4.83: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/prospectrankings/TSX/2006_DE
Really, it doesn’t matter what his time was, his lack of speed and explosion is clearly evident on tape. Darryl Tapp is slow.
Ok. That link would have been helpful in the beginning.
I don’t agree that he’s slow but it looks like you’re right about his 40 time.
Shuttle is more important to blitzing
Tapp – 4.48
Clemons – I couldn’t find it
Davis – 4.3
Teo – 4.18
If not Curry, what about Hawthorne at SDE?
I know, I know, I know….Heater is Tatupu insurance at MLB. It’s just that, well, he doesn’t seem like a good middle linebacker but is certainly a talent. Maybe he’s too small for SDE, or his skills don’t transfer well enough to pass rushing, but it’s better than going with the bottom of our DE/LB barrel.
Funny, John, I have been thinking much the same thing for a while.
It seemed like many people just assumed that we would always run a 4-3 elephant style defense but I kept thinking of Pete’s USC defenses and most were just normal 4-3 style. I think that the elephant can be an interesting wrinkle thrown in to maximize the pass rush but I dunno how much I like it as our every down defense.
Also, as you’ve talked about before, John, good coaches alter their scheme to fit their best players. This being the case, it seems to make even less sense to get rid of Tapp just to run the Elephant.
I didn’t understand or like the trade then and I still don’t understand or like it now.
"I call the big one Bitey."-Homer J. Simpson
by Willie Mays Haze on Apr 28, 2010 5:48 PM PDT reply actions
It seems a little early to be judging where guys will line up
Or is that just me?
by Big E-Z on Apr 28, 2010 5:54 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
I'm going to get drunk and do the ab ripper
again and again and again
by BurtonOerney on Apr 28, 2010 6:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh I'm all for offseason analysis but assuming that our coaching staff is clueless seems excessive
Especially since training camp hasn’t started. I’ve been known to be overly optimistic to a fault. Trust me, I’m as obsessed with offseason thought and analysis as everyone here.
by Big E-Z on Apr 28, 2010 8:26 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I don't think Tapp is starter quality at end
That’s a position that you absolutely need pass rush from your starter. Tapp’s only year you could call him adequate was when he was playing opposite to Kerney’s monster year. If we just needed someone to hold the edge, we could have kept Redding there. I think the writing is on the wall for this elephant position, because Clemons is clearly not a starter either.
And for the record, this is the reason I was not in favor of the Earl Thomas pick. I would have much preferred Morgan and a safety later in the draft.
And I also have reservations about Curry's ability to cover TE's
I had meant to do a fanpost on this, but I’m too lazy. While comparing live action to recorded games, I was trying to pay particular attention to Curry’s cover abilities. My conclusion was that he really struggled on crossing routes and post routes in coverage. He always seemed to want to jump them, and would lose a step. He excelled when covering seam routes and rb dump offs. I think the elephant position lends itself to his skill set very well.
Not to start a futile argument
but I don’t think Tapp was better in 2007 than he was in 2009. I think he played a lot more snaps for a better team. Short of injury, it’s very uncommon for a player to decline from the ages of 22 to 24. Tapp started 16 games in 2007. He started five in 2009.
I don't want to argue it either
Just pointing out his higher production, and also making the point that it was likely due to Kerney/Bernard’s great year.
Tapp was better in 2009.
He has four sacks in one game in 2007, and that performance had nothing to do with Bernard or Kerney.
I have a different opinion of Tapp than you do.
I think what is hurting John so much is Tapp is a very good player that was masked by inferior talent. With a better team, Tapp’s ability and the progress he’s made the past 2 years should break through in the next 3-5 years, and it’s going to be really frustrating to watch him do it for another team.
Like if Michael Bennett or Justin Forsett were starting for another team in 2 years after being cut.
I think John’s right about Tapp, and I’m not sure what will happen in Philly with 500,000 DEs, but I’m holding out for hope that some drafted DE is going to get cut by them, picked up by us, and turn into something. Because I’m really doubting that Tapp is any lower than 3rd in their DE rotation in the next 2-3 years.
I hope all the Tapp haters out there keep this in mind next season
When he ends up with much more than just 2 1/2 sacks (assuming he gets sufficient playing time). It won’t be because he “suddenly got better” but that the mitigating circumstances that surrounds him will have changed. Luckily we don’t play the Eagles this year, so I’m going to root for him to tear shit up (especially against whatever NFC West team Philly plays).
Same here. I always liked Tapp, and I hope he gets to Romo and McNabb plenty of times =)
"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - Morgan
Understanding the deal and hating Tapp are two different things
I think I understand why the FO made the move. I don’t hate the FO for doing it and I still like Tapp as a player.
Exactly
Somehow not blasting the trade became Tapp hating.
I think this point about surrounding talent is exagerated
It’s not like opposing teams were lining a TE across from him to help with chip blocks or anything. He’s still going to be going up against a tackle. I think he’ll do exactly what he did here; stout vs. the run, mediocre in pass rush.
We have four really good linebackers
Is it possible that he was in the same situation with our LB’s that they our far better than our DE’s. Perhaps it wasn’t an area he wanted to invest in early in the draft. I think Hill fits more of the mold of an Elephant than Curry.
I wish Cops was on...
But Curry is way faster
I wish Cops was on...
by Generzal Zod on Apr 28, 2010 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions
I guess the glorification of the draft is already over
after a pretty solid draft you have to at least give a benefit to the doubt on some of the personnel decisions (even if the draft was 40% lucky). It sounds like PC made his decisions on who he wanted and who he didn’t and he “may” have moved a little fast to jettison what he didn’t want. For whatever reason Tapp was on that do not want list. Let’s see how it plays out before being confused about a decision that hasn’t been communicated yet.
PC's D is going to be a roving Mongolian Visigoth
Ninja sniper crew.
I lived and died by SC the last couple years…….bringing respect to the west coast.
didn’t matter where they lined up on D, they scattered and closed quick.
it’s a 7-4 D.
With Tapp it could have been a 7-4.
Right now it’s looking like an 8-3.
Probably should just wait for your write-up, but I'm impatient
Is Vickerson a 1-tech or a 3-tech? Well, it probably doesn’t matter in that ANYONE would be a step up from Cole. Hey, has JaMarcus Russell been cut yet?
Nah.
Russell isn’t an option. At 6’6" 300 he’s too heavy and too slow for DE/Elephant.
But… he does have an arm like a howitzer, if that counts for anything…
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Apr 29, 2010 1:38 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
In recent years we've seen RB and DE turn more into rotational positions...
Could it be Schneider and Carroll’s intention to maximize this? I wonder if we might have viewed Tapp as just a better version of Reed. Tapp is a more complete player but they’re both undersized hustle players who bring a full arsenal of pass rush moves.
Foley and Clemons bring experience, Reed brings scrappiness, and Curry brings beastliness. The only thing that really seemed to be missing was an edge rusher. Dexter Davis looks like a one-trick-pony, but wouldn’t you know that trick just happens to be the edge rush.
This obviously isn’t ideal but next year’s DE class looks much stronger than this year’s so our current situation might just be a temporary solution. We have four very good chase-n-tackle LBs so an RDE rotation that’s weak against the run doesn’t seem like such a bad weakness to me.
With Brandon Graham off the board at 14,
I’m glad we didn’t heavily invest in a DE.
by Hawkhammer19 on Apr 28, 2010 7:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Tapp's been playing at 270ish for a couple years now.
He’s not that undersized for a RDE in a 4-3 defense. Maybe the low-mid average. He’s just a little short now, but not undersized.
When he came out he was barely over 250 and definitely undersized all around.
I don't think all of that bulk he added was good though.
His added bulk means he’s not a liability against the run but he also looked like the slowest Tapp I’ve seen last year. His ideal playing weight is probably in the 260 area. Dexter Davis looks like he has some room to add weight and he’s 244.
Anyway, It’s a short term solution. I will enjoy watching the many good DE prospects next year in college football.
by Hawkhammer19 on Apr 29, 2010 1:16 AM PDT up reply actions
The report I read on Dexter Davis was that he's maxed out size-wise and that's one of his issues...
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Apr 29, 2010 1:36 AM PDT up reply actions
I read scouting reports trying to find that but didn't see any.
But I assumed that was why he went so late, and why he was a projected linebacker and that’s it.
Also...
All other issues with him stemmed from conjecture about him as a linebacker that I read.
I don't know how scouts decide if guys have maxed out their frames.
With some guys it’s pretty obvious like maybe Brian Price but others it’s not so easy.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-combine/09000d5d816dd72e/2010-Combine-workout-Dexter-Davis
He doesn’t look maxed out to me but maybe I’m wrong, who knows. The point is that he looks to have a very good edge rush.
by Hawkhammer19 on Apr 29, 2010 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't think he was slow.
He just didn’t seem quite as disruptive as previous years.
by Hawkhammer19 on Apr 29, 2010 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions
When Cole and Redding are pass rushing at the same time as Mebane and Tapp, it allows the two decent pass rushers we have look worse.
Pass rushing is such a collective effort, especially in the NFL. In college some players can blow apart the extra attention they get, in the NFL the blocking and scheme is at it’s best.
I hear you.
I guess my point is that I don’t think all of the weight Tapp added was necessarily beneficial.
by Hawkhammer19 on Apr 29, 2010 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm just hoping Jackson continues to develop
So Clemons/Curry will have enough support to be average.
I look at it like this
Seattle didn’t draft a pass rusher but they did draft a DE, a run stopping DE in EJ Wilson. Perhaps they will run packages where on running downs they use Wilson to stunt the run while Curry plays OSLB. Meanwhile, on passing downs they will put Curry in the elephant and bring in your nickle or dime CB. I am not saying it is a perfect system but it is basically the way the Giants used LT.
by Sean Michael Patrick Gallegos on Apr 28, 2010 7:16 PM PDT reply actions
Dexter Davis is a pass rusher that Seattle drafted.
Entering into his senior season he was the only guy in the country coming off back to back double digit sack seasons. There are only two players in ASU history with more sacks than Davis and they were both drafted in the first round. Davis was considered too small to be a DE in the NFL but he could work in the elephant.
even still
that will only work on passing downs on running down he’d get blown up… That’s why I brought up Wilson.
by Sean Michael Patrick Gallegos on Apr 28, 2010 8:10 PM PDT up reply actions
He (like Tapp) was surprisingly staunch in run support, holding the point surprisingly well.
As I mentioned below, my opinion is that some of that stems from his wrestling background, and from scouting reports he is much stronger than his size says he should be.
Now how much does that translate to the NFL? I’d say he will probably need to add some good weight, 260 might not be possible for his frame, I have no idea, but it would give him a chance to be a legitimate DE.
I'd give williams
The person you traded Tapp for, so that you could draft as your DE before making Davis your full time DE option.
by Sean Michael Patrick Gallegos on Apr 29, 2010 7:45 AM PDT up reply actions
With Davis at 240-250, absolutely.
He looks like an occasional pass rush specialist only at this point in his career, which Tapp also was as a rookie.
He looks like the best situational pass rusher the Seahawks have to be honest.
His college production coupled with his athleticism makes it a little surprising he’s a 7th round pick. Obviously a big part of it is how he was shut down in his senior year. But sacks as we’ve discussed a lot here are partly the product of a defense’s overall pass rush, and to maybe a greater extent, a product of playing while ahead.
At 6’1.5 and 244, along with some great combine numbers, I think he could make the team. He started every game after he redshirted, 50 in all. He was a two-time state champion wrestler in high school, which in my opinion works in his favor as a defensive lineman in many ways. And unlike some of the defensive ends we’ve been discussing he does have the athleticism at or near the elite pass rushers. We’ll see if he can put on weight, or if he’s just destined to be a situational pass rusher.
Next year is supposed to be deep at pass-rusher sooo...
Oh wait, that’s the year we’re getting Locker, never mind.
A quick look at the body type of guys who have played the elephant role
Charles Haley: 6’5" 255 pounds
Lawrence Taylor: 6’3" 237 pounds
Willie McGinest: 6’5" 270 pounds
Jason Taylor: 6’6" 255 pounds
Trevor Scott: 6’5" 255 pounds
As John said, opposing teams are going to run it down the throat of a 240 pound DE.
And I find this quote from Gus Bradyley very odd:
"His length and his speed," Bradley said about what he liked about Clemons at the Elephant position. "As you can imagine, if he’s always on the end you need a guy who has great speed coming off of the edge and great pass rush. So I think his length and his speed are assets for him."
Really? They like his length? Do they know he’s only 6’2"? He may well be blessed with longer than average arms. But I find it hard to believe that he’s bringing anything beyond speed to the table.
Curry ran a slow short shuttle at the combine
He’s deservedly called a great athlete (4.52 40 at 254 pounds, 37" vertical) but after reading the football outsiders SackSEER article, I went and checked his short shuttle times and it was 4.51 – not good. According to FO there have been no elite pass rushers drafted since 1999 that ran slower than 4.42. By comparison, Brian Cushing ran it in 4.22 and Clay Matthews 4.18.
It may not necessarily be his short shuttle time, but perhaps when Carroll & Co took a closer look at Curry they decided he was missing a key ingredient required by the Leo position. He could still blitz plenty from the SAM position, and he wouldn’t have to take on LTs all day long.
I get the sense that they are being extremely picky about who they pick for the Leo position. They’d rather get by with scraps for a year or two rather than invest in a player who might not be an ideal fit there. I have a feeling we might not find a permanent RDE solution until next offseason.
That is a good point
It may be what we are doing with our 2nd round pick next year.
Good bye Big Walt.
by Generzal Zod on Apr 29, 2010 7:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Dexter Davis ran a 4.30 short shuttle
which bodes well for him
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