Seahawks Roster Analysis: Defensive Line
Even the most blitz-heavy schemes in the NFL rely on their front four to generate pressure on nearly half of all snaps. Most teams are above or well above 50%. In 2008 the Jets rushed four on fewer snaps than any other team, but still rushed four on 44.8% of all snaps*. The Jets ranked first in rushing three, rushing three on 24.1% of all snaps. When a team does blitz, the blitzing players supplement part or all of the front four. No matter the scheme, no matter if a team has a designated pass-rushing linebacker, a stand up end or a typical right defensive end, all teams are reliant on roughly a third of their starting defense to provide most of their pass rush.
Pete Carroll and defensive coordinator Gus Bradley pattern their defense after Monte Kiffin. Kiffin-inspired defenses typically range towards the extreme, rushing four on 70%+ of snaps. In his last season in the league, Kiffin's Bucs rushed three or four pass rushers on 79% of all snaps. When they blitzed, they mostly rushed five, and plays with three, four or five pass rushers accounted for 94.5% of all snaps.
So it's obvious how a Kiffin-inspired defense fails. Rod Marinelli can attest, without the horses on the line to generate pass rush, the pass defense crumbles, and with it, the entire defense.
Seattle's attempt to reinvent the wheel, fuse disparate styles and seemingly contradictory concepts created the curious mishmash known as the "West Coast Defense." It was a total failure. Seattle started a situational run stopper at defensive tackle and a defensive tackle at starting defensive end. Was there any doubt that Patrick Kerney-Colin Cole-Brandon Mebane-Cory Redding would struggle to generate pressure?
Is there any doubt that Chris Clemons-Colin Cole-Brandon Mebane-Lawrence Jackson will likewise struggle?
Standup End
Last Season: N/A
Currently: 4
Possible starters: Chris Clemons, Ricky Foley, Dexter Davis, Nick Reed
Competing for a roster spot: Chris Clemons, Ricky Foley, Dexter Davis, Nick Reed
The stand up end is the major difference between the 2009 Seahawks defense and the 2010 Seahawks defense. With line coach Dan Quinn again flirting with playing a tackle at end, it's a vital position and one that must shoulder much of the Seahawks pass rush. On the plus side, Clemons, Foley and Davis are all probably faster and more agile than Darryl Tapp. On the negative side, good grief. It would seemingly take an accident of fortune for this to not be a total mess. Rome wasn't built in a day, and I am happy the Seahawks offense finally received a boost of young talent, but I still can't wrap my head around how this defense will work or even how it is supposed to work.
Clemons is the starter, but otherwise, I see no clear favorite.
Defensive Tackle
Last season: 5
Currently: 6
Possible starters: Brandon Mebane, Colin Cole, Kevin Vickerson
Competing for a roster spot: Red Bryant, DeMarcus Granger, Craig Terrill
Vickerson is listed at 321 on the official site and when Seattle hosted Tennessee last season, Vickerson started alongside committed under tackle Jovan Haye. That's a long form way of writing, I think he might challenge Cole for snaps. It's not hard to improve on Cole, but don't count on Vickerson. There's nothing in his profile to suggest he will be any better than the pass rushing black hole named Colin Cole. A long time ago, Granger was a prospect. Sad as it is, he is Seattle's best hope to improve significantly upon Cole. He's worth watching in the preseason, but I wouldn't get my hopes up. Among the above, Mebane is a starter in the NFL. Bryant is a starter-level talent. And that's it. This unit sucks.
Strongside End
Last season: 2
Currently: 4
Possible starters: Lawrence Jackson, E.J. Wilson, Robert Henderson, Rob Rose
Competing for a roster spot: E.J. Wilson, Robert Henderson, Rob Rose
Jackson is not a great pass rusher, and by the sounds of it, Carroll wants him to add weight and become more of a run stopper. That frustrates me. He's not an edge rusher really, and it's unlikely he explodes for double digit sacks, but at his best, he can rush, hold the point and disrupt. Jackson's problem is not how he's been played but how he himself has played. He quit snaps as a rookie. He faded after a hot start in 2009. But he's 24. Jackson has the talent to be a capable starting left defensive end, if he wants it and if he's allowed.
Unfortunately, as mentioned above, that doesn't seem to be the plan. If Jackson starts, it will be a bulked up and slower Jackson. If not, he will cede snaps to one of Wilson, Henderson, Rose or Bryant. Among those, Wilson probably has the best pass rush potential. He could maybe duplicate Redding's impact.
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Fun fact
Did you know they didn’t add the second cous until 1974?
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
http://www.classictvquotes.com/quotes/heres-some-little-known-facts-about-couscous-they-didnt-add-the/
D’oh. I got the year wrong.
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
Well, then I'll have to consider everything you say from here on out as erroneous.
‘Cause that’s “the naaaame of the game!” If I may be permitted to reference Crystal Method.
That's what you get for not using a real hot tub.
Slip ‘n’ slides are no substitute.
by djafrot on May 10, 2010 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
By all means.
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
It seems like the d-line as a whole...
…after the draft and FA counts as the weakest unit on the team.
Question: if the LBs are solid, and the secondary much improved over last year, does that give this line a better chance to perform both in run and pass defense?
mos def my thing is:
will the defense be good enough to stop other teams?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI
Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!
by jubelthebear on May 10, 2010 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Everything connects to everything, and so better linebackers and better defensive backs can help the defensive line
but “help” is the operative word. They can’t make a bad unit good.
Given better secondary
I don’t believe that will tanslate into getting to the passer – if the DL is bad, they’ll still struggle to penetrate (esp with Mebane double teamed).
by paul2 on May 10, 2010 2:54 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
If coverage is good, it can buy seconds for the DL to beat their man.
by DJ C-Raig on May 11, 2010 12:14 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
my math teacher once said
(on the subject of only giving 20 minutes for a pop quiz)
I could give my grandma all the time in the world and she wouldn’t solve this problem. You can do it or you can’t.
Likewise, its more about talent then time. Granted, if we had Freeney or a superstar, yes a second or two could mean a sac.
Yeah, but these aren't players totally unskilled at rushing the passer.
It’s not like we’re starting WR’s on the line. They have some talent and skill, just not as much as others in the league. So those extra seconds will augment their skill. Jesus Chris.
by DJ C-Raig on May 11, 2010 1:49 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Why invoke JC
Just voicing an opinion.
by paul2 on May 11, 2010 3:30 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah really,
And saying a superstar having an extra second or two “could” mean a sack is ludicrous.
so you have never seen an almost-sack
miliseconds before pressure arrived, because the QB got rid of it? What game are you watching?
I mean he's being stupid.
An extra second or two helps anyone. A superstar pass rusher with an extra second or two adds 5 or more sacks to his season total.
In a league of milliseconds,
a good O-line can only hold any D-line for so long. Bad D-lines generally only get “coverage” sacks, and a second or two extra from the secondary is an eternity for the pass rush.
I'd take any sacks at this point.
Good bye Big Walt.
by Generzal Zod on May 11, 2010 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions
if they involve opposing QBs on the ground sure
Good bye Big Walt.
by Generzal Zod on May 11, 2010 7:57 PM PDT up reply actions
run-defense vs. pass defense
When we’re aweful on getting to the passer, why use DT’s as D. Ends? Why use big slow DT’s if we aren’t running a 3-4? I guess I am echoing your comments, sorry but I honestly would like to hear the other side’s rationale.
No, it's ok lol
I was beaten out of spelling it ‘aweful’ with that same joke. It’s “awful”.
"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - Morgan
The inter-divisional worries remain strong.
The Rams are probably still not too dangerous. How does this D-Line fair any better at stopping the 49ers run game though? Or the Cardinals passing attack without being able to get pressure?
Question:
Have there been any reports on moving Mebane back to the 1-tech? Or are there any suitable free-agent DT’s that we might be kicking the tires on? It seems to me that the pass rush, even with a shakey line-up like last years, was still THAT much better with Mebane at the 1. I can only recall a couple plays from last year where he played at that spot but I wonder if the FO or anyone else is seeing the same things that I am seeing?
Why not root for Seattle whats the worst that could happen...........Ugh thats right, a Steeler-Cardinal superbowl match-up
by Seatown_Sport_Head321 on May 10, 2010 2:19 PM PDT reply actions
Good Question
I think many fans of the ‘Hawks would like to see Mebane moved back to the 1-tech, and that’s why there was hope we would draft a 3-tech at some point this year. I know, for myself, it was one of the only disappointing aspects of an otherwise amazing draft.
Furthermore, I have seen absolutely nothing in the media discussing the interior of our defensive line, specifically where Mebane will line up if and he and Cole will have the same roles as last year.
Question:
Is rushing three and blitzing one the same as rushing four, across schemes?
Big Walt: thanks for the smile. Thanks for your Hall of Fame career.
I fear we have become the 2009 Jaguars in this department
Signing Kampman sure sounds like it would’ve been nice, now. With this many concerns across the D-line I think the success of the defense overall is riding on the development of a glut of players. Red Bryant, E.J. Wilson, Aaron Curry, maybe even Rick Foley. If we were to consider the bare minimum of what to expect from the current roster, not even great schemes and game-planning will make this unit very effective. I think any reasonable prediction at this point can’t put this team above the bottom ten on pass-defense.
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
If we can score then we should have a decent season.
Remember we got way better as a result of the draft but we still have a way to go. I’m not expecting us to go to the playoffs, it would take SF and Arizona falling apart because of QB play. They could at least win 9 games despite their QB, with their running game and defenses.
Good bye Big Walt.
by Generzal Zod on May 11, 2010 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions
I only meant to offer some outlook on pass defense.
As for the rest? I could see special teams, pass offense, pass defense, run defense all being good or bad. I know that’s kind of a sweeping statement to make but it’ll depend on how the roster shakes down (how many guys will be kept just for special teams and will they hurt depth at their position?), which players develop, who gets injured, who declines (or doesn’t) etc.
As far as scoring, I dunno what to expect from Washington and White, or our new O-line, or even Hasselbeck to a degree. I’m hoping this division will be interesting if nothing else in 2010.
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
An interesting note I saw recently..
…is that Tampa Bay’s reasoning for drafting both Gerald McCoy AND Brian Price with early picks was because Defensive Tackles were the two cornerstones that make the Kiffin-inspired Tampa-2 defense work.
That does not make me happy. :(
Big Walt: thanks for the smile. Thanks for your Hall of Fame career.
Let's readjust that a little...
because even that isn’t a fair evaluation.
The Kiffin-inspired Tampa-2 defense cornerstone wasn’t just ANY defensive tackle tandem, it was Warren Sapp + one. At the peak of his play he was as good a DT as ever played the game. Saying Kiffen-inspired Tampa-2 starts at the DT position is almost like saying Phil Jackson’s offense starts with the shooting guard.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on May 10, 2010 6:20 PM PDT up reply actions
So what you are saying is.....
if PC can manage to find and coach the best players ever,
we’re gonna have a chance.
Let's not fail to give Simeon Rice any credit.
Which is my way of saying, no, both DTs aren’t the cornerstone. Your main DE and 3-tech are.
And yeah of course it does take talent, and this is not to say those positions aren’t key in other defenses, but part of the reason this defense wants stoutness at strongside end is to hold up against double-teams. Ultimately offenses can and will adjust protection to double-team any standout player on your line that demands it, but it’s not always ideal for them. Defenses can line up how they choose to, and lining up 5, 1, 3, 9, left to right, puts the offense in position to accept 3/5ths of their line taking on your 2 on the defensive left, more often than not, unless they have to adjust. Which can affect how they might run or throw, depending on their talent and strengths, etc.
So the 3-tech is well in the gap. At advantage against his one man, the guard. End against tackle. A lot of this is common throughout the league, but this Kiffin 4-3 Under is all about gap assignment, and basically results in 3 players being schematically more impact players than everyone else. 3-tech, WLB (most runs essentially get channeled to him) and box safety. So, I see your point, but 3-tech really is a cornerstone piece for this.
by jacobstevens on May 10, 2010 11:02 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
My question with the stand-up end approach is...
…how is the stand-up end not a total liability in run defense? Seems like any of these guys would just get mauled out of the play by any left tackle worth a damn.
I’m not very knowledgeable about defensive schemes so my apologies if I’m missing something obvious.
You're right, it is a big liability in run defense.
It’s not going to be the base defense, I’m sure. The Leo package will be talked about more than it will be on the field.
by jacobstevens on May 10, 2010 11:03 PM PDT up reply actions
That's an even more frightening theory.
Who then would play RDE?
by John Morgan on May 10, 2010 11:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Dunno. But I will be surprised if it's actually the base defense and not just a frequent and integral wrinkle.
When I read about Red being tried at SDE, I wondered if, in part, that was to see what kind of options they have there, in the event that Jackson, as the best non-situational pass rusher on the squad, ends up needing to man RDE.
Which encourages about nothing, but that’s what I was wondering might be behind it.
by jacobstevens on May 10, 2010 11:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Any evidence for that assumption or just a hunch?
Because you’re arguing Carroll quotes, a trade, a signing, a draft pick and consensus media coverage.
Something that has helped me with Carroll's 4-3 Under base defense
First post, here. Hello everyone. Please forgive any mistakes in posting decorum.
I found a website that goes over the X’s and O’s of USC football and they have some great posts left from Carroll’s days. I’ll put the link at the bottom of this post. But here are my thoughts:
The defensive ends very much come in a fast (weak side), and big (strong side) variety.
The Chris Clemons weak side type is described thusly: "He does not have to be a large player and can be more of a pass rushing end. The only thing he can not do is get hooked or reached by the defender and moved out of position. He can play pass first and still be effective. "
The Lawrence Jackson type is, I think, less of a pass rusher because the SAM linebacker (Aaron Curry) will be playing on the line of scrimmage on the outside shoulder of the TE and can blitz from there. Often.
My worry is what will happen when the TE goes in motion, since the DE’s will be very much set up to handle a strong or weak side specifically. At the bottom of the linked post are diagrams showing what the defense does with different offensive formations.
There is another post on the blitz packages from this defense. Sadly the posts on the 4-3 Elephant were buggy and had to be taken down.
4-3 Under:
http://trojanfootballanalysis.com/?p=308
4-3 Under Blitzes:
http://trojanfootballanalysis.com/?p=311
Hope you all find this interesting, and that it hasn’t been posted before. And of course, the big question is who comes off the field when we go into a nickel package.
by rymong on May 11, 2010 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Hope you enjoy it here!
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
Wow, great post. I think you beat my first post.
Which went something like “man this site is cool”
Missing comma, period and capital M, and all.
My worry about this defense (assuming they’ll be implementing exactly what you had posted) is that teams will rush against the weak side often on rushing down, and simply place a TE on the weak side on passing downs, thus completely neutralizing any speed rushers we use.
It just doesn’t seem like a tough defense to plan around. Just the opposite, in fact.
"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - Morgan
I completely agree
and that’s a great summation of the concern. I think we’re all concerned, here. Even if it’s not the base defense, we’re not looking much better for performance, possibly worse, even if strategically at less inherent disadvantage, to go with the proto-sized RDE as the starter and only role this out situationally. Inherently more advantageous but weaker personnel for pass rush.
by jacobstevens on May 13, 2010 5:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Just a tips from a expirt...
TRY USING ALL CAPS ONCE IN A WHILE and don’t break up the paragraphs so much. As a president once said: A story divided cannot withstand itself.
But seriously, good post and thanks for the links.
Of course, each subsequent post must be better than the last, so good luck with that.
But I'll have to wait to see those links...
From here at work they are
Blocked: Reason MALWARE
Thanks for the warm welcomes everyone
Yeah, I thought the links were now clean, as the blog’s host had posted he recognized he had been hacked, and was re-building the site. My apologies for anyone running into trouble. For the record, I have not. If anybody has an idea of another way I can post the info, while still crediting the source, let me know.
Some worrying quotes from the 4-3 Under Blitzes post:
On the DE position at which Chris Clemons is now the starter: “The open side Defensive End has to be one of your best football players. Size does not matter as much. We want an athletic player who can move around.”
YIKES on that first sentence!
On the 3-tech DT: “The other defensive tackle the 3 technique player should be your premier interior pass rusher. He is going to get a lot of one on one blocks as it is hard to double team him because of where he lines up.”
On the Lawrence Jackson DE spot: “The defensive end to the tight end side needs to be a defensive player that can play the run. He does not have to be a big time pass rusher. He has to play the C gap and stop the run.”
I think this is why Baratka Atkins is being tried out here.
On Aaron Curry’s spot: “The Sam linebacker has to be a good containment player. He has to be big and strong enough to play on the edge of the tight end. He has to be able to run in pass coverage also.”
On Earl Thomas’ spot: “The Free Safety is another player who makes a lot of tackles for us. He has to have good instincts. He is what we call a natural player. You don’t have to coach this player too much. He has to have a feel for the everything and understand the big picture.”
By the way, these are purportedly taken from a Pete Carroll coaching clinic he conducted while at USC. As these words tend to match what we’ve all been hearing in press conferences and interviews, I tend to believe their veracity.
Baraka Atkins is back on the 80-man...?
Or did you mean Red Bryant?
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
No he's NOT
Totally my fault. I’m mixing up the names of Seattle’s under-performing defensive lineman. I meant Red Bryant.
I guess I should be happy I didn’t call him Jed Heckuba.
Thanks for the catch. Sorry for the confusion.
No, just a hunch, but I don't think it's really contraindicative
Look back at the quotes, and see if there’s tangible indication that Leo will be a substantial, primary package. I think we’re assuming that it will. I know I have been assuming, but reading again, I don’t think there’s been any explicit indication, and maybe not even tacit.
Look back at the history, and we do see Clay Matthews’ Elephant role, more or less the primary package. That was by response, and as we’ve noted before, while Leo, here, if intended to be the primary package, would be by design. I can see the personnel moves signifying it being by design here, but that’s circumstantial evidence at most, of course.
Matthews’ Elephant role was generally out of the norm for Carroll; he had used it in San Francisco, but also the 9ers’ use of Charles Haley in that role, as he moved up from OLB to the line, as well as Rickey Jackson, preceded Carroll’s use of Jackson while he was there.
We know we’ve got the package, they’re calling it Leo here, some guys were specifically brought in for it, and we don’t appear to have the Chris Doleman, proto-sized RDE in place. We and the media have been in consensus that it’s the primary package, you’re right.
My hunch,my interpretation of what we know, is that Leo as primary, isn’t established, and I kind of doubt they will. 85%+ of all passing downs wouldn’t surprise me, but I’m just betting we’ll name 4 down linemen as starters.
by jacobstevens on May 13, 2010 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Well in theory, they're play a bigger end on rushing downs
someone like EJ Wilson or someone, and Chris Clemons on obvious passing downs.
Right?
"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - Morgan
Well, it's a good thing the 2010 defensive tackle class was among the deepest in years...
/stabs stomach with spork repeatedly
Big Walt: thanks for the smile. Thanks for your Hall of Fame career.
Definitely wish we still had that 3rd round pick
Unless we find a way to have Butler get to the Quarterback
I think this unit might suprise some.
I mean, we won’t be dominant, but maybe just enough to be okay for our improved ball coverage.
I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul - Invictus
Should we trade for Haynesworth then?
I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul - Invictus
If they'll take Branch, sure.
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
I would put Vickerson in the competing for a roster spot category
There is nothing to suggest he is a possible starter. According to David Climer of the Tennessean, Vickerson “probably wasn’t going to make the Titans’ roster this season” and I haven’t seen or heard anything out of the Seahawks’ camp to suggest that he wasn’t anything more than a throw-in on the LenDale trade. This isn’t to say that Vickerson won’t make the team, but I don’t see how this makes him a possible starter either.
Was he assuming that Haynesworth will be on their roster?
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
I mean there was a lot of speculation that he was coming back and all.
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
Players experience at other positions
Earlier you suggested that the Seahawks might only keep one fullback since Bates likes to run more two tight end formations. Last year the Seahawks lost a couple defensive linemen because they cut them to cover injury losses at other positions.
It seems that the players competing for the Seahawks’ standup end position all have the size and speed to be valuable on special teams. Would Rickey Foley’s experience on special teams and fullback increase his chances to make the squad as a standup end?
You don’t appear to think much of any of the Seahawks defensive tackles, except for Mebane. Possibly moving Red Bryant to strongside end could weaken this group further.
In your assessment of right guards you stated "I think Wrotto has one foot out of the VMAC." Wrotto played three years as a defensive tackle on a good Georgia Tech defense. Given the level of competition, could Wrotto have a better chance to make the team as a defensive tackle?
I never knew Wrotto played DT.
Considering it’s more important, harder to fill and gets paid better — or used to, at least — that would be more of a strike against him, that he switched to guard, I would think.
by jacobstevens on May 10, 2010 11:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Team's decision
He played left tackle on offense his senior year because the team needed to protect their QB. NFL teams probably saw him more as a guard because his arm length was a bit short for OT.
3-year starter at DT
Wrotto started 12 games at strongside DT as a freshman, 9 as a sophmore, and 11 as a junior. Was a Freshman All-American.
Aren't Tampa 2 defensive lines typically undersized?
Especially at the DE position? I guess I am specifically thinking about the Colts with Mathis and Freeney. I don’t think Simeon Rice was particularly big defensive end either.
Not good.
This draft / offseason was all about helping the offense (Whitehurst, Tate, Okung, White, Baker, Washington, Hamilton and bringing in a million WR’s), well next offseason needs to be about QB’s and stacking the D-line.
Mebane and Jackson are starters in the NFL, but the rest of these guys are good depth right now, but not full-time starters. This is the main reason I think this team will be lucky to win 7-8 games. When you have no pass rush your defense will be nothing more than middle of the pack.
I don't think the book is written on QB yet.
Sure seems like Hassel B is about done but we can’t even begin to judge Whitehurst yet can we? Does seem like an odd move to get him and to pay to much for him but we just don’t know. So I would say putting QB on the priority list for next year as more probable than absolute.
I’m happy that we shored up as many holes as we have so far so quickly. D line seems like it really hasn’t even been addressed but it’s going to be more interesting than watching that nightmare of last year of getting no where near the opp QB. Mark me as a fellow believer in going out and getting anything possible in the FA or trading WR for genuine D line help and if that isn’t going to happen make that numero uno priority next year.
by Great Sergios Ghost on May 10, 2010 7:40 PM PDT up reply actions
I acknowledge that you've acknowledged last year's suckitude.
But it CAN get worse.
And yeah, I too am pining for any established FA pass-rusher at this point. But hey, August could change my mind.
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
OK, we're all basically here because our interest in football exceeds our team's chances at winning the next game, right?
We’re here all off-season because we’re interested in the challenge that is personnel. So here’s the question.
If there are two options — don’t mean to build a false dichotomy but I’m sure we can all agree on the mutually constrictive relationship between the two — which one would you prefer?
You’ve drafted some great key pieces for the future. The whole league and media thinks you did a fantastic job. As the roster stands, things look better all-around except the defensive line. Looks like it may be last in the league. Worst unit on the team, possible achilles heel that submarine’s the season. You can address the line, but it would mean compromise. The better talent to draft before you lies in other units. The better talent may help you more in the long-term, but not this year.
Now that we’ve decried the distinct possibility that our line will suck, do you still think BPA, still think building for the future even at the expense of the current season is acceptable? Does this change your mind and make you wish we’d gotten more of a pass rushing talent at end, sooner? Or is it an acceptable consequence of a multi-year plan?
It's an acceptable consequence of a multi-year plan.
In my tremendously under-educated opinion.
That said, we had a lot of needs, and a lot of them were just as important as the defensive line. And we can’t forget that they DID draft two DE’s (basically) late.
Doesn't change my mind (to answer your question)
No other F/A or draft option has been offered for consideration that even comes close to what they accomplished this off-season. Obtaining Whitehurst – for all the angst that move generated – allowed for an amazing draft, one that will provide value for years to come (at least based on what we know now).
Every major hole was filled (secondary/QB/LT) with the exception of a pass-rushing DE. The only major draft opportunity that wasn’t realized was one of the stud DTs, but no where in the draft would it have been proper to take a DT over who was available.
The secondary, the unit I thought most in need of addressing, went from awful to potentially one of the best units in the league (within a couple of years) with the addition of Thomas, Kam and Thurmond to add to the existing talent of Trufant, Wilson and (yes) Jennings, with the resigning of Milloy to mentor the group.
Back-up and possible future starting QB greatly upgraded with Whitehurst over Wallace (who will never be a starting QB and seemed to do a poor job stepping in last year).
RB greatly upgraded with adding Washington and White, allowing the team to ditch Jones.
Okung will likely struggle this year so you will hear lots of criticism but he will likely grow into a good to very good LT.
The WRs have been greatly enhanced with the addition of Tate, the Williamss and a number of other guys I won’t learn until they make the team.
Key FA additions of Hamilton and Baker should contribute this year.
So maybe, just maybe, the talent they have gathered on the d-line will add up to something close to competence, and if it does, Seattle will have a decent year, keeping in mind that many key players still need to grow (Okung, Thomas, Tate, just for starters).
Let’s just hope and pray they play in 2011, because that is more likely to be Seattle’s year.
The setup we have moving into 2011 and on
is so promising that it makes the D-line issues easier to swallow. As long as it gets some kind of major help after 2010, I’m reasonably content. When we came out of the draft with only minor additions to the line I knew there was gonna be trouble and my perspective on that hasn’t changed since. So I guess I’m going with your final option: It is an acceptable consequence.
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
Ok so
if our front four suck (and they do) and we have an overabundance of talented LB’s…WHY oh WHY not run a 3-4 D?
What? No SOUL?
I think the standard answer is we lack a decent nose tackle and our ends are too small
…plus the ever-present coaches don’t like to change schemes unless absolutely forced to, blah blah blah.
I think the real answer is some combination of:
- suffer until next year’s draft which promises deeper D-line talent
- trade for Haynesworth and put him beside Mebane (shorter-term, win-now thinking, btw)
- work magic on Red Bryant, getting him more disciplined and assignment, gap correct
- blitz a lot and hope our new brand spankin’ new secondary can cover like demons
Ok, our secondary is not brand new, but with Tru and Thurmond fully recovered, Pistol more experienced, with stronger, playmaking safeties, coupled with a more aggressive scheme (e.g. more man and press coverage), and a more effective Curry, there is some hope.
Or maybe I’m just an optimistic homer.
In any event, I would personally prefer much more aggression on defense this year, even if it means more big plays for the opposition. If I have to sit through another season of soft zones and 15 yard cushions, making mediocre QBs look like All-Pros, as they steadily march down the field converting 3rd down after 3rd down, I will have to start working out or something.
Red Bryant being better is not magical.
He’s still a young player with room to improve and a lot of time between now and the start of the season to do it in. If Hawthorne can go from “Who?” to leading linebacker I don’t think predicting more from Red is homerism.
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
I hope Bryant can do it, I like the guy for some reason.
DeMarcus Granger seems like he fell in the draft because of some character issues. We’ll be good against the run.
Good bye Big Walt.
by Generzal Zod on May 11, 2010 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Bryant or Cole may be more valuable as a NT and Mebane could be a bad ass DE
Hey it worked in Madden?
I like the defense that the Dolphins run, it seems like they were forced to switch to it due to lack of personal in some areas and abundance in others.
I’d rather make the switch. Everyone thought the Packers defense would suck because they made the switch and it was fine.
Good bye Big Walt.
by Generzal Zod on May 11, 2010 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions
That's no fun
but it didn’t help that we didn’t have an offense to counter. We could be in for some high scoring games this year, which isn’t the worst thing in the world.
Last year we had a lot of injuries on defense too.
Good bye Big Walt.
by Generzal Zod on May 11, 2010 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions
It's probably homerism to expect it or bank on it.
Potential routinely goes unrealized in developmental players like Bryant. He was a high-upside gamble when they drafted him. He may improve, he may not. The fact that he hasn’t been able to surpass lowly Colin Cole yet does not speak well for his progression, but hey, maybe this is his year.
Oh of course on the banking thing.
As far as Colin Cole, Mora wouldn’t take out any starters for anybody. Remember that whole “won’t give up on the season” spiel?
It’s just that last year we were hoping for Red’s development so I guess there is this feeling (for me anyway) that it’s been long enough for it to be likely. Supposedly he has better coaching this year too, but yeah, we’ll just have to see. Same thing for a lot of our young players.
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
Isn't next years DE class the equivalent to this years DT class?
Let’s just sim all our games til the off season.
Seriously though, we have fun players to watch play/develop, and that will make sucking bearable (unlike last year).
by DJ C-Raig on May 11, 2010 12:21 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
Curry?
Has anyone heard if Aaron Curry is being considered for stand up end or is it looking like he will be strictly a linebacker? It seems to me that this line could actually be pretty decent if they put Curry at the elephant spot and started Hawthorne at strong side linebacker.
Is it possible that better coverage from the secondary makes the pass rush a little better?
If receivers aren’t open it is hard to throw to them, it may help our d – line. It is the weakest part of the team for sure. Fortunately we have some good LB’s and have done a lot to improve our secondary.
I say package Branch and Jones and see what we can get for them.
Good bye Big Walt.
John and others talked about that above.
Do a word search for “help”.
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...

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