So Now We Will Have a Super Bowl at Qwest, Right?
by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on May 25, 2010 4:46 PM PDT
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PrintPffft... of course not. Never going to happen. But now that XLVIII has be awarded to New Jersey, the last valid argument against having a Super Bowl in Seattle has vanished. Long time fans may remember the NFL has teased the Pacific Northwest with the possibility of hosting the roman numeral game before: XXVI was nearly awarded to Seattle, but instead was held at the Metrodome in Minneapolis. Additionally, the league made vague promises to site the championship game in Seattle back in 1997 to entice voter support for Referendum 48. So what are the main arguments against having, say, XLIX at Qwest Field?
1. Seattle is too small
Bullshit. Seattle is the 14th biggest metro area in the US, and is bigger than future Super Bowl host Indianapolis, and previous hosts Minneapolis, New Orleans, San Diego, Tampa-St. Petersburg, and Jacksonville.
2. Seattle is too remote
If the NFL is willing to put the big game in L.A., San Diego, Palo Alto, or Phoenix, there's no geographical reason to deny Seattle the big game. If you're coming from the East Coast or the midwest, it's a plane ride anyway.
3. Seattle's weather is too crappy
New York City in February? Average high of 40 F, average low of 27 F, with an average of 3 inches of precipitation.
Seattle? Average high of 49 F, low of 36 F, and 4 inches of rain.
Worried about the Seattle rain? I'm sure Paul Allen would spring for some sort of canopy to be strung over the playing surface.
The biggest argument that Seattle deserves a Super Bowl? The league has held the Super Bowl in FUCKING DETROIT. TWICE! Last time I checked, the Emerald City isn't a rotting death gauntlet.
What do y'all think?
Don't forget to sneak a peek at my home blog: Dave Krieg's Strike Beard.
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Seating capacity
Can’t Qwest be expanded to 70k? I know San Diego and Minneapolis have fewer seats than that.
"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper
by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on May 25, 2010 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm sure future SBs will be in San Diego
and The Murph holds 71k
"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper
by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on May 25, 2010 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions
The NFL is on record saying that the Super Bowl will never return to San Diego without a new stadium
And current proposals are for a downtown stadium with 62k+ seats. I’m sure they would have a plan to shoehorn in 8,000 seats to get to 70k for a Super Bowl, but a new stadium is at best an iffy proposition right now.
by lemonverbena on May 25, 2010 6:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Attendance for the last 5 superbowls:
74,059
70,774
71,101.
74,512
68,206
If Qwest is expandable to 72,000, that’s more than Lucas Oil Stadium which got the Superbowl in 2012.
But
The new stadium in NJ doesn’t but yet it was rewarded a SB
imagine a political decision made by a sports league screwing Seattle
Good bye Big Walt.
by Generzal Zod on May 26, 2010 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
Would we have gottne with a retractable roof?
We never got one when we had the Kingdome.
Good bye Big Walt.
by Generzal Zod on May 26, 2010 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions
By itself not a strong counter-argument
Qwest Field is bigger than Raymond James Stadium, and no one objects to that hosting.
But yeah, the NYJ hosting – for now – is the special exception, not the rule. We certainly have grounds to start whinging for our turn now, tho.
by Thomas Beekers on May 25, 2010 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions
A west coast city notorious for rain,
located further away from the next NFL team than any other in the league, that happens to have never won a Super Bowl themselves is not a package that is going to help secure any bids. The stadium and the regions accommodations are not really the issue, as I see it. New York / New Jersey getting a bid opens the door to conversation. But I wouldn’t wait by the mail box for an invitation just yet.
In addition, not many people are clamoring to vacation in Seattle in February.
I'm gonna go calm submissive on your ass.
For people, read "journalists"
I’m getting a bit tired of the agenda’d whinging from these media pundits who aren’t looking forward to a week long paid vacation in clammy, cold New York.
by Thomas Beekers on May 25, 2010 6:38 PM PDT up reply actions
The weather has a lot less to do with the game and the players and the fans
And a lot more to do with the halftime entertainment. Try to get the Rolling Stones or some other geriatric band to play your event in freezing conditions. Try and get Janet Jackson to show her titty when she could get frost bite from exposure. Try and get Beyonce to belt out a 10 minute national anthem in a downpour. Not happening. Money made from entertainment is more important than the game played. In a battle between Buffalo and San Diego for Super Bowl hosting rights, Buffalo loses 10 times out of 10.
I don't know about you
but I’ve thought the half time entertainment has sucked the last 10-15 years (basically, since I became a Seahawk fan).
Now with more lemon bars!
It's not meant for football fans.
It’s meant to attract the non-football fans. Same deal with the commercials. Same deal with Joe Buck. People who are football fans don’t tune in for those reasons.
If it was purely up to football fans the game would be hosted by Anchorage one year, the game would never cut to commercial and the half time entertainment would consist of 2 minute wrestling match between Refrigerator Perry and a polar bear.
by Kevaru on May 25, 2010 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
You're right.
And a lot of non-football fans tune in for it. But honestly, in my experience it’s mostly because they want to see the commercials. Which by itself is incredibly weird. In what other instance of life do people actively seek out the commercials of a show? Regardless, none of the casual fans that I’ve encountered (many of them good friends) have cared one wit about the halftime show. They are just rooting for one of the teams for some random reason and they want to see the brand new commercials.
Now with more lemon bars!
I could see Dana White ponying up to make that happen
I am surprised he hasn’t put together a card and have that as the halftime show. Why not have a comedian – or several of them? If it is safe enough for the Tonight Show then it should be fine.
Good bye Big Walt.
by Generzal Zod on May 26, 2010 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions
Prince was fucking amazing.
Otherwise, I totally agree with you.
Isn't Soundgarden doing a reunion tour?
Just get Pearl Jam and Soundgarden to do it. They could even get them to do Hunger Strike and have a video montage of NFL players talking about how “hungry” they are for a championship. I think they’re now officially old enough to qualify as Super Bowl half-time entertainment, and it sounds just stupid enough to be something NFL executives would love.
by Mind of no mind on May 25, 2010 8:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Pearl Jam are NBA fans
It would be cool, Pearl Jam may be down but Chris Cornell is spending too much time flexing in his mirror to get the reunion under way.
Good bye Big Walt.
by Generzal Zod on May 26, 2010 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions
It would be a great half time show
They always play Even Flow as bumpers for games all over the country.
Good bye Big Walt.
by Generzal Zod on May 26, 2010 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Hell, Alice in Chains is touring again.
Let’s bring the whole grudge gang back together!
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?
Ew
Who wants to watch AiC sans Layne Staley?
I thought that at first, but they are a hell of a live show.
And , their singer is a great fit singing much of the time with Cantrell, who remains a big part of the vocal theme they use.
Red Bryant: surprise us!
I don’t think that there’s some vast conspiracy or anything… I just think there’s no longer a compelling case against having the Super Bowl in Seattle once a SB is given to a city in a cold-weather climate with an open air stadium.
"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper
by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on May 25, 2010 6:24 PM PDT reply actions
The league will make the argument that NY/NJ is an exception to the rule
It’s a brand-new $1.7b stadium, shared by two teams in the one truly world-class city in the country, and oh yeah, the league just happens to be headquartered there.
Unless someone comes up with a (relatively) affordable way to rig a retractable roof onto an existing stadium, Seattle won’t bother to put forward a bid. You would think it wouldn’t be so expensive to build a thin, translucent lid, but apparently it is. For safety’s sake it still has to be something that won’t fly apart and kill people if the weather kicks up.
by lemonverbena on May 25, 2010 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions
I personally would like to see a Super Bowl in bad weather, it should have to do with seeding above anything else.
It’s not like regular people can afford to go anyway, and the excuses about injuries is silly. The road to the Super Bowl is full of injuries and they play in horrible conditions.
Good bye Big Walt.
by Generzal Zod on May 26, 2010 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions
World-class city
This is somewhat off the topic of football, but New York is the only world-class city in the US? That designation is open to interpretation, but it is difficult to imagine a reasonable definition of world-class that does not include at least San Francisco, Los Angeles, and Chicago.
Those cities are close
but can’t stack up next to Paris, Amsterdam, Moscow, London, NYC, and the like.
by lemonverbena on May 26, 2010 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Amsterdam?
Ugh. Tourist trap. Might as well list Athens then. Shithole.
by Thomas Beekers on May 26, 2010 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions
as an American urbanite
I put SF far ahead of NYC. Equal Culinary and Culture (minus major ghettos and broadway so it’s a wash) . SF hands down with beaches, weather, jobs (silicone valley is commutable vs. parasitic wall st. for NYC). I worked as a chef in SF for years, so, yes, I am biased.
NYC is a dump and SF is paradise in comparison.
Yeah, there's a bunch of different ways to quantify this
by lemonverbena on May 26, 2010 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions
True.
But for me SF is like NYC minus the ghettos in a semi-tropic location. Minus the we are the center of the universe attitude also.
They might have a point about that.
When you think of global city, New York is first on the list. Hard to ignore the significance of the city.
Dissenting opinions are welcome, and should be encouraged, at Lookout Landing. -LL Style Guide
I can ignore them quite easily
NYC is a parasitic cancer. They make nothing, they innovate nothing. Unless you consider a derivatives market innovative.
Tokyo is a global city. NYC is a monument to greed.
Right.
New York is nothing except for Wall Street. It’s not like it’s a national leader in fashion, art, media, research, tourism, trade, education and (ahem, chef!) fine dining….
Thank you, Walter Jones.
by thebyron on May 26, 2010 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
NY cuisine was all classical
up until something called “California cuisine” emerged in the 80’s. Wolfgang Puck can really be credited with it’s birth at Spago. NY followed a trend, like they always do.
ive been to SF 4 times .
i dont recall all this great weather, beach’s of which you speak in SF..i agree about “parasitic wall st.” but u do understand thats 1 block out of the hundreds that exist in NYC.. And for the record SF is my 2nd fav city in the world..
It's all relative.
Growing up in Fairbanks and Seattle makes SF weather ideal for me. The cheapest rents in town are by the beach where locals say it is “too cold”. I loved it. Anywhere else in California is too hot for my tastes.
As for NY, obviously I’m not a fan. But I have no illusions of converting anyone to my opinion over some posts on a seahawks forum page.
I live in Ballard (seattle) now, it’s 53 degrees out and raining. perfect day to go to the beach. But we don’t have one.
i my self live on Long Island
could never live in the city .great to visit on the weekend but im too laid back. i love my yard, car, beach’s and parks.
That said everyone is entitled to their opinion and i share some of your views about the $ machine that is NYC .But most of us that live in the shadows of it like it that way. im 39 and have never step foot on wall st.
i just expected more of a positive vibe. being as this may have open the door for other teams to get a SB bid that didnt before have a shot..
the NFL teased us with a super bowl
when we were voting on building our new stadium and then said no after we actually built the thing. We’re not going to get a SB in Seattle, so there is ingrained bitterness here in town over that. And the sonics left town for god damned Oklahoma.
So understand here in Alaska south we feel like the over achieving ginger step child that mommy will never love no matter how great we are.
Seattle needs to be attacked by terrorists
because that’s the reason the Super Bowl is in New York this year. This campaign started days after 9/11, and it has come to fruition. It’s a one-time deal that, barring windfall profits, cooperative weather and a massive positive response from viewers and advertisers, probably won’t happen again anytime soon.
Na
Its paying homage to the Mara family for all they have done for the NFL. Its also about selling the naming rights to the new stadium.. And the fact remains that NY is well equipped to deal with all that such an event can through at it…All events will be held in manhattan only 7 miles from the new stadium. Dont really understand all the hate..NY is the most diverse place in the world.Its not all city .some of the nicest beaches in the world. mountains,woodlands ex….And we make sick pizza!!
No hate for NYC
I have no problem with New York/New Jersey hosting the big game. I just think Seattle should too.
On the other hand, fuck the fucking Yankees. :)
"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper
by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on May 30, 2010 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions
I disagree with that.
It’s going to New York (at least that will be the host city) not just any cold weather city. And as much as I love Seattle, NY can offer corporate amenities on a level few cities in the world can compete with.
I'm gonna go calm submissive on your ass.
One aspect rarely brought up by fans
but is something I hear a lot from organizers when talking about big events in Seattle is high-end accommodation. There seems to be a poor distribution of 4+ star hotels in Seattle which corporate-driven events (of which the Super Bowl certainly qualifies) deem essential.
True to an extent
But not so much of a deficiency to be a make-or-break factor, I don’t believe.
by lemonverbena on May 25, 2010 7:31 PM PDT up reply actions
But if you stack that on to:
Mediocre weather
Lower seating capacity
No dome
Smaller market in a relatively remote location
Then there are a lot of little things that get in the way of a bid for Seattle. Sure, any one of those reasons by themselves might be dampened by argument or tolerated but I think all of them together makes Qwest a longshot.
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
They do, actually.
They don’t have 4-star hotels. But they do have 4-asterisk hotels.
by jacobstevens on May 27, 2010 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions
If Seattle never got the Super Bowl when the Kingdome was around, why would we get one now?
We had a domed stadium (with a large seating capacity) for years, and the NFL never brought the game here, even after Minneapolis and Detroit got approved. Was the Kingdome noticeably worse than the Metrodome or the Silverdome? I’d think Seattle in February is a much more tolerable environment for pregame activities that the two aforementioned cities.
Obviously the higher-ups in the NFL are not interested in even considering Seattle as a viable venue, so I won’t get my hopes up at all. You’ll see a Super Bowl in Boston/Foxboro, Chicago, Baltimore, Green Bay, D.C and Pittsburgh before you see one at Qwest Field. Seattle remains the red-headed stepchild of the NFL.
by J.L. White on May 25, 2010 11:05 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
The Kingdome was pretty old
They seem to love showing off the new stadiums.
Dissenting opinions are welcome, and should be encouraged, at Lookout Landing. -LL Style Guide
Well, sure it was old after it got old...
but when it was new, it was like new. Seahawks played in it from new until it got old.
We weren’t considered because we are outsiders to the NFL— as JL said. (BTW- I’ll rec that post).
We will probably never be considered unless they adopt a plan to rotate among all NFL cities— which I doubt will ever happen. The NFL has never been about equal opportunity among franchises. In fact, it’s always been about favoritism.
That's kind of paranoid
Yes, Seattle is regarded as a remote outpost, but the whole league knows what a great stadium and downtown setting Qwest is. If it had a retractable roof a Super Bowl would have come within a few years of it opening.
by lemonverbena on May 26, 2010 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Paranoia is par for the course for Seahawks fans
The entire league is conspiring against us 24/7.
Obviously.
by Thomas Beekers on May 26, 2010 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions
The Kingome was once new, as well
Between 1977 and the early 90’s the Kingdome was just as tolerable as half the stadiums being used. The 1979 Baseball All-star game was played there, as well as the 1989 & 1995 Final Fours; the Super Bowl is another event just like those that the Kingdome was built for.
No good reason I can think of for the Metrodome and Silverdome getting Super Bowls but not us, other than Detroit and Minneapolis are closer to the East Coast than Seattle. It’s more than obvious that the NFL has never really given a crap about Seattle.
Why do we care about this anyway?
Just wondering: if you’re someone who really wants a SB in Seattle, can you articulate your reason(s) why it matters to you? (I used to want it, just as I used to want the Olympics, but now I think I’m ambivalent at best.)
It's one of the biggest events-and almost always the most watched event-in the country.
And if you’re a football fan, it’s, like, your Christmas. It was like when Seattle had the ASG back in 2001. Remember how cool that was?
So if it was held in Seattle,
you’d buy tickets and go? But not if it was elsewhere?
I'm a fan of the NFL
…not just the Seahawks. I’m only 3 hours from Indy, so I’d LOVE to go to that SB, and if there was a SB at Qwest, I’d want to go even if it was Raiders v Cowboys. Why?
BECAUSE IT’S THE FUCKING SUPER BOWL.
"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper
by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on May 26, 2010 9:12 AM PDT up reply actions
I guess what I don't understand
is why any of us care where it’s held. I don’t own a hotel or any other tourism-dependent revenue generator, and if I could get tickets, I too would go, irrespective of where or who.
by bewrong on May 26, 2010 12:28 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
It's pretty much unaffordable unless you're rich.
The tickets are one thing, but then you’re adding on airfare and hotel prices, both of which are jacked up more than usual because of the event.
Civic pride. Seattle has it.
I’ve been all over and Seattle and SF are the two premier American cities not on the Eastern Seaboard. Yet, most of the country still thinks of us as South Alaska. We are an economic powerhouse and a leader in the sciences, yet, we don’t exist or ever merit comment.
It is a slight of the highest order.
All of the Northwest does - it is a slight to the whole region I think.
I agree completely I travel a lot and when I tell people where I am from (from Portland but) they tell me how beautiful they think it is there and they want to go there and Seattle one day. When ESPN is here they announcers always talk about how much they love to do games from here and the same was for Seattle when the Sonics where there.
Good bye Big Walt.
by Generzal Zod on May 26, 2010 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions
I remember getting really excitied for the 1995 Final Four, and I didn't go to any of the games.
I was proud that my home town got to host the biggest games of college basketball, and I really don’t follow college basketball at all. Even went to a Fanfest-like thing they had at the convention center, and for a few regrettable days I was a fan of the Jim Harrick-led UCLA Bruins. I should have known better, I know (I was only 15 at the time)…well, at least I wasn’t rooting for Duke.
Anyway, that’s the kind of thrill a Super Bowl can bring to a city, even if your team isn’t playing and you don’t go to the game. It’s too bad that the NFL seems to have little interest in bringing the game to Qwest Field.
Uh, LA?
Chicago? Dallas?
There’s a hell of a lot of “premier American cities” not on the eastern seaboard
LA is a shithole
have you been there?
and I said the two premier, as in the best. not the only good ones.
Many people don't even pronounce Oregon right.
Or think Seattle is in California (no joke!)
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
Rotting death guantlet
that about sums up Detroit. I visited about 10 years ago, it’s an architecture museum.
The Ruins of Detroit
http://www.marchandmeffre.com/detroit/index.html
They need RoboCop, ASAP.
"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper
by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on May 26, 2010 9:14 AM PDT up reply actions
Some of those shots are just incredible.
Is it odd that one of my first thoughts was “Hello, paintball Mecca!”?
Thank you, Walter Jones.
That is so depressing
I don’t want to get political here but talk about getting screwed by corporate America.
Good bye Big Walt.
by Generzal Zod on May 26, 2010 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions
and the market for post apocalyptic movies has gone down lately
and the rise of Zombie apocalypse hasn’t caught up yet, but when it does…
Good bye Big Walt.
by Generzal Zod on May 26, 2010 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions
I thought I was on the set of 12 monkeys looking at those.
That city has action movie set written all over it. Movies were they actually do blow up high rises. No CGI. They could probably get 5 or 6 lethal weapon sequels.
I feel now would be an appropriate time to mention
that there are large and very dangerous packs of wild dogs roaming the streets of Detroit and its suburbs. Detroit really is a post-apocalyptic movie.
Now with more lemon bars!
Awesome
Would love to visit it. And Centralia.
I have a soft spot for debilitated towns, whether it be ruins in Russia I visited or New Orleans where I worked. It’s a combination of haunting beauty and itching fingers seeing nothing but potential for “stuff to fix”.
by Thomas Beekers on May 26, 2010 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions
The suburbs of Detroit aren't too much better off
the whole point of white flight was to have the preferred pigment but keep the convenience of the big cities.
Good bye Big Walt.
by Generzal Zod on May 26, 2010 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, but that's fifty years after the suburban boom.
Suburbs are generally unsustainable… especially in cities where the downtown is utterly destroyed.
by djafrot on May 26, 2010 7:39 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Or if you are a fan of Shit My Dad Says
""I wanted to see Detroit win. I’ve been there. It’s like God took a shit on a parking lot. They deserve some good news.""
Paul Allen needs to whine at the owners meetings like the Jets/Giants owners and the Jacksonville owner to receive the Super Bowl.
"Even the Swedes are getting mad."-Randy Hahn
"It's very cozy in the sin bin."-Randy Hahn
Hosting a Super Bowl is probably the only thing keeping the Jaguars in Jacksonville.
I have to admit there are a few teams that get really screwed by the NFL when it comes to hosting a Super Bowl. Carolina is one I keep thinking of.
Good bye Big Walt.
by Generzal Zod on May 26, 2010 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions
I look at it as a reward for the punishment of living in Florida
or any other of those crappy places.
someone has to I guess
It’s so expensive to live there it’s not they can afford to go anyway.
Good bye Big Walt.
by Generzal Zod on May 26, 2010 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions
Jacksonville is terrible! So much worse than Seattle (as NFL sees it)
Okay I used to live in Florida and went to the 2005 opening game Seattle vs Jax…
the city is fucking terrible…it’s completely dead…there is NOTHING in that city other than the Jacksonville Landing…which is a 1/2 circle of about 12 stores. They always show that on TV and make Jax look like a hotspot….but really…that is all there is to that city.
We walked from our hotel which was across a river that runs through the city (one of 3 major hotels, and all are poor quality…Hiltons) all the way to the Jacksonville Stadium. And literally there was nooo one and noooothing in that city….it’s fairly big, and it felt like a ghost town (city). They had the HQ to some coffee company (folgers?) so that was nice walking by…smelled good….and then we finally got the stadium and saw signs of life.
Yes, I just said the highlight of the city was walking past a coffee joint….awesome, eh?
The stadium is boring as hell
The stadium is soooo compact it’s surprising…smallest, most uncomfortable seats I’ve ever sat in. The reason the stadium holds so many people is because you’re sitting on eachother’s laps.
The fans are ever boring (is this surprising)
god I hated Jacksonville…worst football-going experience ever…I was under 21 so I couldn’t get drunk to make it better either.
I Bleed Blue and Green
I understand it's not this way
but I’ve long felt the league ought to rotate the SB through all 32 teams. Not just idealism, I think there is some tangible, collateral merit to it. I understand most of the reasons given for the status quo. And I don’t even think most of them are invalid.
I just think on the whole it’s inadequate. For every city to get to host the championship once every 32 years would give most fans the chance for their team’s city to host it at least once in their lifetime. For many, twice. For logistical issues like seating capacity, cities/franchises would have at least a couple dozen years to get contingencies in order. Put Oakland, Buffalo and Jacksonville at the end of the list to start, if you must. Put Seattle way towards the back, too, if you must. Make a portion of revenue from hosting shared in the CBA.
Increase the saturation of fanship! The US market is saturated and they are smartly pushing UK, Mexico, Germany and Canada to build a greater fan base. That’s great. Lot of people in the states don’t care for sports, don’t care for football, but could still get excited and possibly drawn in when their city hosts a rare, rare, exclusive spectacle that is the Super Bowl.
I love that New York got the super bowl. The worst part is only that it would seem to further solidify the warm-weather discrimination policy by being able to claim New York is an exception. I don’t think I’ll ever see a rotating system in my life.
no way
they have a Super Bowl in Green Bay dude.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI
Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!
by jubelthebear on May 27, 2010 6:31 AM PDT up reply actions
speaking of rotting death gauntlets;
New Joisee got the bid because the state needed help paying for it’s 1.4 billion dollar hole-in-the-budget.
Seems political, no?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI
Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!
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