Justin Forsett and Winning Football
On Smaller Running Backs
I can't think of a single reason a running back would benefit from being tall. The talents and skills associated with a running back, acceleration, change of direction, elusiveness, vision, ability to break tackles, are all either neutral, favoring neither the tall nor the short, or favor the short. Specifically, a shorter back is likely to have a shorter stride and therefore accelerate faster. A shorter back is harder to see and typically has a lower center of gravity. A shorter back has a lower center of gravity and a shorter stride and is likely able to cut quicker, exploit smaller holes and get back up to speed quicker. And history bears this out: Many of the greatest backs to ever play have been short: Barry Sanders, Emmitt Smith, Warrick Dunn and Brian Westbrook, to name a few of the obvious. That assumes 5'10" as an imaginary line of demarcation. That's arbitrary, but it seems to accord to popular perception. 5'10" is as short as a back can be before he's "short".
Running back has mostly defied the overall trend in the NFL of players getting bigger - or at least taller. All-time greats like Jim Brown, O.J. Simpson, Marcus Allen and Franco Harris are taller than and relatively more massive than contemporary rushers. Last year's top five rushers according to DYAR, Chris Johnson, Ryan Grant, Ray Rice, Jamaal Charles and Pierre Thomas, included one player over six feet, three at what seems to be the current prototype, 5'11", and Ray Rice, who's 5'8". 2008 was ruled by 5'9" DeAngelo Williams. The lone big back among the top five rushers of 2008, Brandon Jacobs, suffered a sizable year-to-year decline, hopefully dispelling the notion that size alone makes a player more durable. Actually, among the top five, Derrick Ward, Clinton Portis and Jacobs all declined quite a bit from 2008 to 2009. Ward and Portis are both "prototypical". Jacobs is tall and massive. And each was good in 2008 and bad in 2009.
Jacobs is among the only contemporary backs that can or could do what backs of yore did: run over defenders. It seems like all that contact might have caused Jacobs to lose a step. DVOA and DYAR are such crude measures of individual performance, something like judging a pitcher by ERA, it's hard to say from a single metric whether Jacobs was worse or his team was worse. However, if nothing else, DYAR and DVOA confirm that a team can succeed with a shorter back. It's not even uncommon.
Seattle succeeded when Justin Forsett ran the ball. Which is a wonder, given the overall quality of Seattle's offense. In fact, by a general measure of effectiveness, Seattle's top two backs, Forsett and Julius Jones, outgained Beanie Wells and Tim Hightower 157 DYAR to 81 and outgained Frank Gore and Glen Coffee 157 DYAR to 34. Forsett was the more "valuable" of the two, accounting for 122 of Seattle's rushing DYAR. There's a perception that Forsett was valuable because he was used as a change of pace back, but that doesn't really hold up to scrutiny. The four games he carried the ball 10 or more times account for 397 of his 619 total yards, and Force averaged 6.3 yards per attempt in those contests. The opposing defenses ranked 14, 32, 5 and 26 in rush defense.
So, Force isn't tall, but that doesn't matter. Force is a little light, but because he's short, he's not that slight. His BMI, 29.5, compares closely to Edgerrin James, 29.7, Curtis Martin, 29.3, and Fred Taylor, 30.1. James, Martin and Taylor are all contemporary players that have amassed over 10,000 rushing yards. If Force has a problem, it's that he has a bruising style and big or small, contact takes its toll. So you probably don't want to give Forsett more than 200-250 carries a season, depending on usage and health.
The Seahawks Backfield
A good Seattle team will likely split about 350-550 runs between its backs. The 2008 Broncos, Jeremy Bates only season calling plays for an NFL team, only ran 387 times in 1,019 total plays, and 57 were by quarterback Jay Cutler. That team lacked for running back talent and often played from behind. Bates offense at Southern California ran 438 times in 817 total plays. Matt Barkley accounted for 45 attempts. The Trojans finished 9-4 with several blowout wins. So, like most offensive coordinators, Bates attempts a balanced attack with perhaps a slight leaning towards passing the ball. A good Seattle team, one that finishes near or above .500, will likely spread out about 350-550 carries. Of those, some will be very low leverage - killing the clock and meager comeback attempts in blowout losses.
A few people jumped out of their skin when I wrote "Forsett, Julius Jones and Leon Washington is a good stable of backs," but I struggle to see the controversy. Broadly, Seattle can split its carries:
| Role | Player | Carries |
| Feature Back | Justin Forsett | 175-225 |
| Spell/Mop up | Julius Jones | 125-175 |
| Change of Pace | Leon Washington | 50-100 |
| Mop up/Injury Replacement | Quinton Ganther | 0-50 |
350 to 550 carries. No one overloaded. No liabilities among pass blockers or receivers. Two high value rushers and receivers. Two generalists. A good overall stable of backs.
Seattle could add some carries to Forsett, add some carries to Quinton Ganther, especially in mop up and short yardage, subtract some carries from Washington or Jones, and achieve the same basic formula. Forsett is a top 20 rusher, a skilled receiver and a developing blocker. He would start and get high leverage carries. Jones is a mediocre rusher, a good receiver and an excellent pass blocker. He would get about a quarter of the high leverage carries and most or all of the low leverage carries. Washington, who sounds like he'll be ready for the season, is the change of pace back. There's no specific protocol for using Washington.
There's nothing radical about my proposed split. Most teams that run a committee backfield split their carries something like the above. It's pretty close to how New Orleans used Pierre Thomas, Mike Bell and Reggie Bush, and those three are a good skills/talent proxy for Forsett, Jones and Washington. Thomas, Bell and Bush is not an otherworldly stable of backs. It's good, complementary and paired with a sensational passing game, provided the core of the most valuable rushing attack by DVOA in 2009.
Winning Football
From a roster construction standpoint, a football team wins by getting excess value out of its investments. Every team has a finite amount of money, a finite amount of draft picks and a finite number of roster positions. Winning teams don't exceed value at every position. A team like the Colts has so much excess value at quarterback that other positions can be weak and the team can still win. The goal of building a roster is not to have a superstar at every position. That's pretty much impossible. The goal is to have enough excess value to be better than your opponent. Besides quarterback, there's no one position that value must derive from. Even quarterback, as in the extreme case of the 2000 Baltimore Ravens, can be overcome with sufficient value at other positions.
Seattle hasn't invested much into its running back position and yet has amassed quality talent. That's winning football. Throwing resources at the run game because of a dogmatic belief in names or stars or the importance of establishing the run is losing football. As soon as resources outstrip production, a team suffers, no matter how good an individual player is. Mike Ditka, Ricky Williams and the Saints exhibit this concept in action. Or, if you'd rather, Herschel Walker and the Vikings or Clinton Portis and the Redskins. Every player performed ably for their new team, but every team suffered a losing season after spending too much on the player.
Right now, Seattle has invested a fifth-round pick, a seventh-round pick and a four-year, $11.8 million contract to acquire the core of its rushing attack. Those players, played properly, should be at least league average, and given the career performances of Forsett and Washington, can and should be better than that. On a team that has holes, some major, some minor, the running game is comparatively strong.
Realistically, Seattle has an outside shot of making the playoffs. If they do, they could do whatever, but a Super Bowl win is an extreme long shot. A team should never go all in on one season, and a team constructed like Seattle shouldn't even flirt with the idea. A team should, with respect to their future, start the best team possible.
Rumors are swirling that Seattle is interested in Marshawn Lynch. Last time I watched Lynch, he was a pretty good back, but there's no position that declines farther faster than running back. Lynch was a first-round pick not too long ago. He has a lengthy legal history and lost his starting spot to a Fred Jackson last season. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Lynch is on a path out of the league. Maybe Seattle could attain him for cheap, and if they could, and I mean very cheap, that would be good. If talent trumps investment, a team wins. But there's no need for Lynch. There's no need to add a big back or big name to this roster. It hasn't invested great resources into its running back position and yet it can expect a good or better rushing attack. The Seattle Seahawks, outside playoff contenders and long shots for the Super Bowl, have talent to run with at running back, no pressing need to upgrade that talent, and no reason to squeeze out marginal production on a team that's not likely to compete.
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I never loved the idea of over-investing in RB, especially on a team that isn’t finished otherwise. That’s why I loathed investing a pick in CJ Spiller.
There being no need for Lynch depends on how useful Jones still is, and whether or not Washington recovers. I consider those more difficulty to estimate factors than Force.
I’m not too sure about the bit on “smaller” running backs mostly discussing height. Some more exploration of weight seems to be in order, since many could argue it’s as important a factor considering the physical toll. And heck, it’s not like looking at BMI invalidates the argument, quite the opposite, looking at the top-5 DYAR RBs you mentioned compared to Force (with weight-height taken from Wikipedia):
Force 29.5
Ryan Grant 29.3
Pierre Thomas 29.3
Jamaal Charles 27.8
Ray Rice 31.9
Chris Johnson 27.9
That puts Force right in the mean, body-type wise (purely by BMI, which is of course very rough)
Forsett and Jones
It seems to me that Forsett runs with far more creativity than Jones. Sure, if the hole is there, Jones will run through it for a positive gain. Forsett, in addition to running hard and breaking tackles, seems to make the most out of his opportunities. Like that busted half-back pass play he ran for what, 20 yards? And sure, Forsett can get run down from behind, but then he drags the guy another five yards.
I love watching Forsett play, and loath seeing Jones get any of his carries. Washington should also be fun, if he fully heals.
I don't know about anyone else, but a possible acquisition of Lynch doesn't excite me.
My attention is more on the O-line, the pass rush, Golden, and Thomas.
Golden!
Oh, and I want to say that
I believe that Forsett can handle a feature back role, as proposed by John.
Golden!
by Carl Shinyama on May 30, 2010 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Why does a team have to focus on a particular position?
If Lynch is cheap, and is an improvement over what we have (or provides a particular role), his acquisition doesn’t mean the Seahawks can’t look to improve other positions at the same time.
He'd have to be damn cheap to justify the risk/roster spot.
Point of order: are NFL roster parameters consistent year-round?
Right, but we're only talking about acquiring Lynch for cheap, and a cheap contract.
I figure we’re going to have Schmitt in the mix anyhow at FB.
If LenDale didn't live up to work ethic expectations, it's hard to see Lynch as the next logical target
by lemonverbena on May 31, 2010 5:27 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't see what you mean
what could go wrong. If its not him I think we get J Russell as our next RB. He can figure it out.
It's not either/or, but it will take resources to acquire Lynch and those resources could otherwise contribute to other positions.
Hill is making $6 mil next season and is facing a suspenion
We might need to include a (low) pick instead.
Thank you.
Name-value only, particularly if rumors about his “coachability” and similar intangibles are true. Kind of an intriguing skill-set, though. Wasn’t so long ago that this guy could slice and dice.
I think that this season is going to hinge largely on...
Quarterback play.
I know that I’m not really going out on a limb here but the season will all come down to whether we can get a decent-above average passing attack.
So, to John, or anyone else I guess... who is this team's third-down/goal line back?
Stereotypically, that would have been LenDale, whose 15 TD’s in one season lend me to think he’d have been good in that role. Is there anyone currently on the roster that excels in such situations?
If your taste is for a big RB to specialize in GL/SY
Ganther is probably that guy.
However, I’m not sure how relevant size is in GL/SY. I think being quick to the hole, and the ability to get through small creases is far more important. Forsett is more than up to the task imo.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
by dcrockett17 on May 30, 2010 7:00 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Remember back in the day when Walter Payton simply leaped over the goal line/first down marker.
Nobody goes airborne anymore, it used to be a tremendously exciting build up— I miss that…
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on May 31, 2010 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Tomlinson was very good at the leap too
But Sweetness was the best.
by lemonverbena on May 31, 2010 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Curt Warner was a beast
5-11 205
Good thing he was no good at his size. And he definitely only leaped over the pile every other game.
Forsett is a similar kinda runner
And Warner was just fine until he completely destroyed a knee. It was kinda freak accident when it happened. But up until that point he was the feature back and did just fine. Averaging around 4 YPC when him, Largent and Turner catching from Kreig/Zorn were our offense.
Good times.
I'm not saying we need a big RB, I was just asking whom out of those RB's we have would work.
I don’t particularly remember any of those guys being particularly good at GL/SY (nice abbreviation), but it’s not something I paid too much attention to. I know almost nothing about Ganther.
To build on that.
Remember that road game against Arizona where he just slipped through for that first TD? I love how Forsett always seems to hide behind his massive O-line brethren and squeak through tiny holes before being spotted.
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
I could see them linining up Kunz, Schmidt and/or Someone else
I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul - Invictus
You had me at,
It’s staggering that anyone would rather Seattle start LenDale White than Justin Forsett. Size bias is among the stupider fixations of fans and front offices
I'm gonna go calm submissive on your ass.
It seems like Steven Jackson is a big back who is successful in the modern NFL.
6’2" 236 pounds. But S-Jax is sort of the exception rather than the rule.
Generally, I agree that smaller can be better. MJD certainly is a bowling ball of doom. Or a ping-pong-ball of doom. Jacobs is so big he can’t stop, so he’s hitting objects so fast (objects = other players) that he just shatters himself as well as the opposition.
See, MoJo is exactly what makes this argument confusing
MoJo is short, a foot shorter than Force, but also 15 pounds heavier. Trying to equate him and Force both as “small” backs makes no sense. They’re both short, but they’re not both small in the same way. Why try to draw a direct comparison between MoJo/Ray Rice and Force.
by Thomas Beekers on May 30, 2010 6:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Julius Jones
Jones is a mediocre rusher, a good receiver and an excellent pass blocker.
His pass blocking is routinely undervalued by fans. Jones is exceptional on blitz pickup—both recognition and form. He’s also not criminally overpaid.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
Though I respect your view
I disagree with many of the fundamentals that you are basing these statements on. Is Forsett usable? Sure, is he a feature back? No… Neither is Jones. And it will be shocking if Washington even comes back from his injury to do much of anything other than running screens, and passes into the flats… He may be great again, but it’s a gamble is all I’m saying.
But with that said, I think there are many names that you are leaving off of your respectable big man list. Eric Dickerson, Bo Jackson, Larry Csonka, Steven Jackson, Roger Craig, Edgerrin James, Ricky Watters, You mention Herschel Walker but forgot that he was 6’1", My point is big backs also have plenty of history running the ball just fine, and the skill that big backs have that short back don’t have is to run with a lean.
But and correct me if I’m wrong your basic point is that Seattle doesn’t need to invest in a back. And with this I can agree with to a certain extent, but a team needs to have either a top flight QB or RB and I think you’d agree QB is more important, after all otherwise Detroit would have won the SB every year if all you needed was a RB. But if the team is cutting corners as every team does. Like you said Baltimore had a serviceable QB but had great DEF, but also really good runners Jamal Lewis had over 1300 yards and Priest Holmes had almost 600 yards. If Seattle gets nearly 2000 yards with their current stable I’ll eat my hat.
You are right we only have so many ways to fix this team in one year, and many needs even after a great draft, and I like the RB position but I’d still rather see them go after Fat Albert or Osi before a RB but if you can’t get those guys why not fix your RB problem? You’ll still need to fix it at some point, right? We can’t give up a 3rd rounder for Lynch because we don’t have one, because of Charlie batch I mean Whitehurst so obviously we have to put a package together. Again, address those other issues first, but don’t not address running back simply because you can do it later. When you’ve done the best to address those other issues but can’t address them any more this year, improve where you can. Right?
by Sean Michael Patrick Gallegos on May 30, 2010 9:29 PM PDT reply actions
What he's saying, quite specifically, is that RB is NOT a "problem"
Especially at this point. If there was a chance of picking up someone special, sure, do it, but there’s no need to overspend on a Lynch when his presence isn’t going to transform the team. We think.
I’m also not sure that John is saying you can’t be a successful big back. What he said is that big backs wear out just as much as small backs, and small backs have their own advantage. As such, the Seattle Seahawks do not “need” a big back to win. I’m sure he would not be against having Bo Jackson taking handoffs for us, if that were possible.
Big backs were great before Linebackers got just as big. How many of those guys still play? Look at those old films and see how lean everyone was.
I’m curious as to how you know Force can’t be a feature back? Have you seen him get the nod and fail (ever)? Or is this coming from a place of professional expertise? It sound like you’re just propagating the “he’s too short to be a feature back” excuse.
And I don’t think you know what Washington’s injury was. He didn’t tear anything, he just broke his leg. That is not an injury which reduces speed. The bones will heal, strengthen, and then not lessen his speed at all. It’s actually much better than if he blew out his knee, because we got him at the injury discount with the knowledge that he will not lose a step physically.
First of all...
I was not saying that Forsett is too short, I was saying that big backs do just fine also. Joe Morris being one of my favorite backs in history had to jump to spit over 6 feet. So, no size isn’t my issue…
What I was saying is that Forsett is slow 4.6 40, even if he plays faster than he is you can bet he’ll get caught if and when he breaks into the open. A feature back needs to make the D on at least a 2 of 4 downs put 8 in the box, this then opens up the pass. Forsett doesn’t do that, and most teams will give him 80-120 yards but keep Matt passing into coverage because Forsett is not going to beat them. You can’t say that about Frank Gore or Steven Jackson because before now their QB’s sucked and you could stack the box and slow the whole offense. Defenses don’t need to stack the box on us.
Second of all I do know what Washington’s injury was the compound fracture of the Tibia and Fibula. That is not the kind of injury that people easily return from:
http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/19/leon-washington-on-road-to-recovery/
Pay close attention to where it says most people take 2 years to fully recover from this type of injury, if they ever do… Let us not lie to ourselves he has a bar in his leg for a reason. If he returns and is a situational back I’ll be impressed. If he comes back and has all his faculties about him then this trade was a steal. If he plays in a very limited role then he is about where most people would expect him to be.
by Sean Michael Patrick Gallegos on May 30, 2010 10:42 PM PDT up reply actions
It says:
For some players, it could take up to two years to fully recovery from this type of injury, if they ever do.
Some, as in “some number greater than one.”
But interpret that however you’d like. Most. As in…
by John Morgan on May 30, 2010 10:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Fair enough
My point is there is no guarantee that he will be the same player. That’s all I’m saying, I hope he is, I’m rooting for him, but I will not be shocked if he is not. That’s it.
by Sean Michael Patrick Gallegos on May 30, 2010 10:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Better than arguing the meaning of
….“average”…. Ugh, I can’t even say “average” (aah!) regarding running backs without getting perturbed.
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
Doesn't matter if he gets caught, so long as he's consistently getting into the 2nd level.
It’s the consistent threat of a big play that is all the Seahawks need to have. A 20-yarder here, 17-yarder there, 29-yarder, etc. can be as powerful as the long home run type of big play.
Golden!
by Carl Shinyama on May 30, 2010 10:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Sure
My point is defenses will let him have those runs because Matt is the player they have to stop in order to beat the Seahawks, not Forsett. You should want to have a player who makes Matt better by keeping the D guessing, by spreading them out by challenging corners, by pushing the edge, moving the line. because correct me if I’m wrong but Forsett didn’t have 29, 20, or 17 yard average. Did he?
by Sean Michael Patrick Gallegos on May 30, 2010 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Defenses will not want to let Forsett consistently get into the 2nd level.
Golden!
by Carl Shinyama on May 30, 2010 11:22 PM PDT up reply actions
First of all define consitantly
because he constantly with 17 rushes for 123 yards and 7.2 yard average got into the 2nd level against the Cards and they beat us 31-20 yeah they sure were worried about Forsett.
How about the 7.4 yard avg against the Titians where we lost 17-13?
Maybe it was the 5 yard avg against green bay where we lost 48 to 10?
He gets into the 2nd level quite often yet… we lost because they could careless about the runner so the put 7 or 6 in the box and make whomever has to pass do so into double coverage.
by Sean Michael Patrick Gallegos on May 30, 2010 11:32 PM PDT up reply actions
*Sigh*
That’s just a bad argument.
Just because the Cardinals beat the Seahawks 31-20, it does not mean they were not worried about Forsett. They were. Especially in the first 3 quarters, because Forsett was rather productive, getting 13 of his carries then for 113 yards, only getting less than 3 yards on 2 runs, for an 8.7 ypc average.
The problem was that the Seahawks killed a lot of their drives sacks and incompletions setting up 3rd and long. And their defensive penalties in that game was what allowed the Cardinals to not just catch up the the Seahawks, but take the lead, and control of the game, thus, forcing the Seahawks to pass the ball more. If these mistakes had not occurred, I guarantee you the Cardinals will have been very frustrated with their inability to contain Forsett.
The defense was to shoulder a large burden for that loss, and it is not a reflection on an opposing defense’s approach of playing against Justin Forsett.
I define consistency (in getting into the 2nd level) as achieving a carry of over 5 yards on about 40% to 50% of your carries that are not short-yardage carries. In that game, Forsett achieved that on 7 of his carries, which consisted of 41.2% of his carries. The impact of that cannot be understated. To do so, would ignore Shaun Alexander’s body of work in 2005.
I’ll address the Titans game later.
Golden!
by Carl Shinyama on May 31, 2010 12:49 AM PDT up reply actions
You just proved my point
Why did they throw poorly in 4 and 5 man coverage? Because they were letting Forsett run because they knew that they didn’t have to worry about him out running their D. They allowed Seattle to run, covered the pass and stopped the Offense. Really this isn’t rocket science…
by Sean Michael Patrick Gallegos on May 31, 2010 1:18 AM PDT up reply actions
I guarantee that in 4 and 5 man coverage,
the defense is not disregarding the running back. It would be stupid not to put that many players in coverage sometimes, even if you were playing against Adrian Peterson.
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
They were letting Forsett run? Seriously? I want you to really think about that statement.
I don’t think you even understood my post properly or what I was getting at. Forsett’s success had more to do with the Cardinals’ INABILITY to stop him, rather that some misguided notion that they were LETTING him run around at will. (For your information, on Forsett’s TD, he was already in the endzone before they realized what happened. I’d call that outrunning their D).
The Seahawks’ stalled drives had more to do with THEIR mistakes (i.e. false starts, delay of game on early and crucial downs) rather than the Cardinals’s defensive play. The Cardinals do get some credit, but by and large, the Seahawks offensive shortcomings were because of their mistakes. That’s without speaking of the defense’s mistakes, like the PI on Trufant and the horsecollar grab by Babineaux, both of which led to a Cardinals’ TD, and the D-line’s inability to generate a pass rush.
The point of my post was that they WERE indeed worried about Forsett, and I daresay, frustrated with the way they were defending him.
Golden!
by Carl Shinyama on May 31, 2010 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions
In addition,
you only referenced 40 speed which is a flawed statistic. Forsett has a great 1st gear and good acceleration so he’s just as fast if not faster than most backs in the league within 5 yards of the line of scrimmage. It’s only his top speed that is lacking.
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
Well said
JForce does get caught from behind sometimes on long runs, as his “top gear” is not as fast as many, but to say that defenses don’t need to fear him is nigh ridiculous. His agility and first two gears get him into space far more often than most backs, the fact that he can be tracked down deep in the secondary does not mean the running game is “broken”.
by IslandHawk on May 31, 2010 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
So did Barry Sanders.
I guess he was too slow in top gear as well. It’s too bad too, he could have been a hell of a back if he just would have had that extra gear…
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on May 31, 2010 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, and just look at all those losses the Lions had with Barry
Clearly they needed a back that the league feared. That Sanders guy was a scrub, as he didn’t have the necessary size and couldn’t outrun the D after juking the first few guys and breaking past the line. “Not rocket science.”
/sarcasm (since we don’t have “the font”) — [I am agreeing with WC and Cheddar]
Oh, clarity :)
Ooh! I just thought of something else. Gallagos when you said Forsett gets “stoned cold” when playing against teams “that actually play run defense,” I’m assuming you forgot about his performances against the highly ranked Arizona run defense (You know, the ones who held AP to 19 yards, Slaton to 39, Grant to 53, MJD to 66? I believe they were a top-10 run defense partway through the season as well.) and the Tennessee run defense (ranked 11th)….right?
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
Cheddar
Finally someone is starting to understand…
No I didn’t forget about that game, in fact I just watched the film on it just before these posts started going up. Arizona a very good run stopping team, didn’t hardly play any run defense against us. Because they didn’t need to they instead played there LB off the line and the DB’s off. Mostly moderate and deep zone. Because they were keying on pass not run, they were willing to give our offense who they new ranked horribly in most run categories free movement.
They didn’t do that against Jax, they played the run stuffed JD until they got up and forced Gerrard to throw 43 times. They did the same thing to Brett Favre 45 times and 2 costly picks, but again they started by stopping the run. The Texans game was a little different as Arizona jumped out to a real big lead early and then held on for the win but Slaton only had 13 carries in that loss.
By convention Arizona played a similar get out ahead play run def. first but they got so much penetration on the passing downs that this was a blow out early. Forsett had 2 carries for 4 yards, and the whole stable of Jones Forsett and James had 10 carries. Matt was 10 for 29 with a pick and a fumble Seattle’s TOP was just over 17 minutes. In the second game against Seattle Forsett’s line was 17 carries 123 yards1 TD a long of 24 with a very nice 7.2 YPC very respectable, especially against a fairly good run Defense right? One that held Seattle to 14 total rushing yards in the previous game. So what was the difference? The passing game was the difference Matt’s line in this game 26 of 52 with 315 yards and a TD with 2 picks one late in the game.
Now, what do I have as further evidence that AZ was keying on the pass? RANKIN had 3 carries for 24 yards and an 8 yard average should we make him our feature back? Hell even Jones had a 5 yard avg. And Seattle played this game from a early lead, but still the stable of Rankin Forsett and Jones only had 22 carries in total. Look I’ll say it again I like Forsett he runs with alot of heart but if your argument is to make him the feature back based on one game against AZ the footage doesn’t agree with you.
Now the whole discussion has been whether or not Seattle should spend resources on another back or on other positions. I say if you can get Fat Albert so that we may actually stop the run Do it… If you can get Osi Umenyiora so that we can get a better pass rush Do it… But if you can’t then there is no reason not to Dump Jones for better talent in our stable. If that happens to be someone like Marshawn Lynch make sure he knows what’s expected of him but then like Tenn. or Minn or Carolina we now have a tandem of Forsett and Lynch that will be scary to contend with. Why I say our running game is broken has by far more to do with Jones than Forsett, but I do wish he was either bigger or faster, he has all of the intangibles especially heart, but am I the only one on this board who wished he had a few more tangibles? I dare say no…
Oh and someone on here made the ridicules claim that Forsett is comparable to Barry Sanders. Barry had a 40 of 4.37 not 4.6-4.7 and Barry ran behind an OL like the one Seattle had last year for most of his career.
by Sean Michael Patrick Gallegos on Jun 1, 2010 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions
You might wana just address what I was talking about
As in not the whole spending resources thing. That way you don’t have to make your posts so long. Focus down more.
I don’t understand why you throw in Matt’s statistics on the 2nd AZ game (your sentence was muddled). Both outings by Matt were pretty crummy to say the least.
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
Wait... did you just say smaller running backs don't have the ability to run with a lean?
Smaller backs
can run with a lean… it’s just a different lean, and I’d debate more effective than a straight line big runner with a forward lean.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on May 31, 2010 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Probably should be smaller next time.
That picture is huge. Also, my ankle kinda hurts just looking at that. That’s some crazy body control.
Now with more lemon bars!
I think Schmitt will stick
Nothing wrong with having a designated fullback, no matter the offense; no true competition for the position and Schmitt is decent on special teams, especially from the interior.
Sure.
And fullback on a team that favors two-tight end sets might be the perfect fit for Schmitt. Five to 10 snaps of mayhem a game.
I've wondered how Schmitt would work in Gibb's system
I’ve seen Peyton Hillis play in Bate’s offense, he averaged like 7 yards a carry and was a load to bring down. Wonder how Schmitt would look as a RB in the system.
Hillis is a much better athlete than Schmitt.
No disrespect to Schmitt, who could still be a great lead blocker, but it’s a wonder he’s in the NFL. Attitude, that’s Schmitt’s game. Attitude. I can’t help but think Ruskell’s excitement over landing Schmitt is one of a handful of quintessential moments in his career.
Exactly, John. Schmidt is entertaining, but his retention in 2010 is on the fence.
I agree — It is a wonder he’s still around. I still wouldn’t be shocked to see him go, though I like Schmitt’s attittude. Sadly, attitude alone isn’t enough.
He's still a pretty good runner for a fullback though
I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul - Invictus
from what I remember
holmgren used too many high picks on fullbacks
I dont know that I'd call it a controversy
it just seems a little early to be applauding our rb’s. Forsett could be money, but he could be a bust. We haven’t seen him yet, as the feature. Jones is good for a #2 but I don’t want him getting a lot of carries. And from what I understand he doesn’t fit Bates’ offense, too indecisive. Washington is coming off a major injury.
Otherwise I like your analyses and I don’t mean to nitpick. There have been some good posts on this at thebluebirdherd.com.
also,
I’m not the guy who does that blog haha
He's been steadily increased the workload. That's a start. And he's young, but I understand your worries with Jones as #2.
Here’s hoping another move before August.
I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul - Invictus

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