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Did Matt Hasselbeck Suffer a Leadership Vacuum?

Nick Reed ran away with our last poll, ending with 50% of votes. That means either a sizable portion of Field Gulls readership is here to troll me, a sizable portion of Field Gulls readership does not understand satire or farce, or a sizable portion of Field Gulls readership is mortally afraid of a scorned Nick Reed. Reed, in all actuality, is fighting for a roster spot. He might be the only name among the bunch that could somehow turn into a star, but he is also the mostly likely to never find a home in the NFL at any position.

Moving on, I present another question that I have been pondering for a while.

Matt Hasselbeck had perhaps his worst season as a pro last year, though the bad seasons are starting to stack up. Unlike seasons past, Hasselbeck was not a victim of injuries and injury-related decline. Hasselbeck actively injured himself. He made a poor decision, threw himself at Patrick Willis's feet and struggled up after a crunching tackle minus two intact ribs. He purportedly injured himself again attempting to tackle Louis Delmas after Delmas intercepted his pass, though I think that story was eventually rescinded or changed.

As best as I can tell, people fiercely defend Hasselbeck because he is the only quarterback to ever lead Seattle to the Super Bowl, and is the only Seahawks quarterback in many of our lifetimes, or at least the lifetime of our fanhood, that is or has been capable of leading the Seahawks to a Super Bowl. When Matt Hasselbeck is benched, cut, traded or retires, Seattle will again be in the position it has spent most of its existence: A great quarterback away from any kind of realistic title hopes. Even the dim and farfetched belief that Hasselbeck will recover and surge into a late-career prime somehow seems more realistic and tangible than rooting for a player that lacks a name or face.

Returning to the original premise here, I wonder: Did Matt Hasselbeck suffer from a leadership vacuum? Did he attempt too much? The scramble into Willis's elbow, would Hasselbeck have attempted something so high-risk, low-reward with Mike Holmgren on the sidelines? Matt's all-too frequent fool-brave scrambles that contributed to his career-high 11 fumbles, his lapse in decision making in general, his rush to return though he clearly wasn't healthy, was it all symptomatic of Hasselbeck attempting to put the team on his shoulders?

When Matt Hasselbeck made the terrible decision to attempt to scramble for a touchdown, a decision that did more to sink the Seahawks' season than any other minus maybe the hiring of Jim Mora, Mora was not critical. He wasn't critical when Hasselbeck tossed himself at Delmas's feet. I can not remember Mora ever criticizing Hasselbeck. It is as if he feared the backlash.

I am not sure that Pete Carroll will rectify the Seahawks leadership vacuum. He certainly has the charisma and name recognition. Whether Charlie Whitehurst has an ounce of meaningful potential or not, it was a bold and welcome move by Carroll to challenge Hasselbeck to earn his position as starting quarterback. It says "I'm in charge." I can't help but wonder if Matt doesn't welcome the change.

Poll
Did Matt Hasselbeck suffer a leadership vacuum in 2009?
Yes, he was attempting too much.
165 votes
Yes, he was too free of criticism.
22 votes
Maybe, but it does not in any way excuse his performance.
117 votes
No, Hasselbeck is experiencing normal decline. No need to rationalize.
94 votes
No, a quarterback should be a leader and Hasselbeck had to attempt something.
146 votes
No, I do not believe Hasselbeck was at fault for his terrible performance.
23 votes
Yes, he was attempting too much and was too free of criticism.
131 votes
No, a quarterback should be a leader, Hasselbeck had to attempt something and I do not believe he was at fault for his terrible performance.
139 votes

837 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 152 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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He was absolutely attempting too much.

Forcing too many passing, forcing scrambles and silly rushes, etc. You could see the frustration and desperation build each and every game. Matt is the fiercest of competitors, and the more he loses/fails, the harder he takes it and the more desperate he becomes.

"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM

by Nick Andron on Jul 12, 2010 12:31 PM PDT reply actions  

It was a nightmare sometimes to watch Hass drop back, and strongly believe disaster was about to strike

There were too many time that Hasselbeck appeared “on the ropes” and the opposing defenses were hitting him hard, and an unfortunate sack, fumble or pick was sure to come. I also think Matt was attempting too much last year, and I think a lot of it had to do with his weak throwing arm.

Over the years I’ve noticed that he comes down with “Rob Johnson Syndrome” whenever he has trouble getting into sync with his receivers, and that issue cropped up much more frequently last year. Because Matt has a less-than-average throwing arm he makes up for it with accuracy, but if when he has trouble completing passes he often holds onto the ball far too long, trying to wait for the “perfect pass” to come available.

The offensive line has gotten the lion’s share of criticism for pass protection (and they do deserve their fair share), but because Hasselbeck has a tendency to hold onto the ball too long that also leads to blocking breakdowns, and he just doesn’t have the scrambling ability to avoid too much pressure. He had so little faith in his arm last year that he’d rather take a sack than throw away the ball and risk an interception.

The offensive line appears to be much improved this year, as well as a better squad of receivers (and I also think a Forsett-led rushing game will do better this year, as well); Hasselbeck was attempting too much last year because he didn’t have the help he needed to accomplish much of anything. With the improvements the team has made I’m hoping he’ll be a better game manager and be less likely to be the cause of disaster. I hope.

by J.L. White on Jul 12, 2010 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Despite my vote, what I've seen in clips of minicamps this year

tells me there was a physical impediment to his throwing ability. I was very critical of him last year, and he played very poorly, regardless of physical condition or throwing ability. Played awfully, and I’ve wanted to draft a QB for 2 drafts now.

In the midst of all that I know something was physically wrong and I don’t know what extent he may be able to return to, physically, but there is a dramatic difference between what he can throw, these minicamps, distance, velocity and release, than last year’s games, and I’ve been surprised it hasn’t been remarked upon by the media yet. Maybe because it would constitute a tacit affirmation that he sucked last year. I dunno, but I’m certain about it, and seeing him better now gives me more hope for this year than any other single Seahawk thing.

by jacobstevens on Jul 12, 2010 12:37 PM PDT reply actions  

There were whispers of some sort of shoulder injury

And that it was hindering him.

I’m hoping that issue (if it was true, and it WAS hindering his ability to throw) is done and gone.

"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM

by Nick Andron on Jul 12, 2010 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

It was hard not to vote "Maybe"

Because I do think the dumb things he did should not excuse his level of play, but at the same time, and not as an apology, he was doing too much.

As a qualification though, I do not think Matt was doing too much because he wanted to, I think he was doing too much because he had to, as I think it is inferred within the article.

As an aside; I hate it when Matt does dumb things like failing to dive past Willis for a TD, and I love it when Matt has the balls to take on Willis for a TD. Five years from now, when Matt is retired, we’re going to be swapping stories about how much of a bad ass Matt was on the field. He’s one of us out there, throwing double blocks 20 yards down the field, tackling his interceptors, and throwing the shoulder like a dumb ass when some RBs would walk out of bounds.

by DJ C-Raig on Jul 12, 2010 12:48 PM PDT reply actions   2 recs

He's gotta be one of the better blocking-QBs out there.

Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...

by Cheddar28 on Jul 12, 2010 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I really think he was attempting too much and is too free of criticism.

To the former, I think that’s just Matt’s nature. Regardless of who is on the roster, he seems like a player who is going to do some bonehead stuff in the name of heroics. It’s that kind of personality that feeds right into the latter.

Matt is by all accounts a nice guy who goes all-out on the field despite the fact that he probably does know better than to do some of the batshit crazy things he does. The media and fans love that. Getting hurt while scrambling to the endzone and failing to dive? That’s not stupid, that’s attempting to carry the whole damn team on your shoulder. If other people were pulling their weight Matt wouldn’t have to do stupid stuff like that. Or so that line of thinking goes.

It’s easy to admire someone who seems to care so much about his team and the game that he’s willing to sacrifice his health for the cause. Unfortunately it seems that dangerous style of play gets him a free pass more often than not.

by BrianL on Jul 12, 2010 1:04 PM PDT reply actions  

I think Hasselbeck did too much because holy crap Hasselbeck is competetive.

Did not having Holmgren on the sidelines to turn bright red and stare holes through him from the sideline contribute to that? Maybe, but I have a hard time thinking that Holmgren would’ve chewed Matt out as he crumpled to the sideline, gasping for breath after the Willis hit.

I think Hasselbeck is like Jack from Lost*. Always trying to take the reigns and make decisions that should make everyone happy but ultimately he’s retarded and he gets his friends into more trouble than they started in. I can remember a time when I liked Hasselbeck, and I can remember a time when I liked Jack, but now they’re both flaccid and annoying and would somebody please listen to Sawyer already?

*I am a season behind in Lost. Please be kind.

by Nate Dogg on Jul 12, 2010 1:07 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

I'm of the same opinion.

I don’t think it matters too much who is on the roster or who is coaching the team, Matt is going to do some crazy things to try and be a hero. Not so much because he’s perceived to be one of the few leaders on the team, but because that’s just how he’s wired to play the game.

by BrianL on Jul 12, 2010 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

I dunno who the Hawks version of Sawyer is

but rec’d for the cool Lost analogy.

Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...

by Cheddar28 on Jul 12, 2010 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

How do we know he wasn't criticized?

It’s a fairly established mantra in large companies, sports teams, the military:

“Praise in public, punish in private”. He may have been criticized within the team, or in a 1-on-1 scenario.

That said, I think Matt definitely suffers greatly when things begin to break down. He’s at his best when making quick reads, and when the offense as a whole is functioning well. And I think he can probably still do that, if given the chance. He’s not the kind of guy to make stuff happen all by himself – plays here or there, maybe, but not consistently. And especially not as he’s coming to grips with some deteriorating skills.

by PerryCollective on Jul 12, 2010 1:14 PM PDT reply actions  

Hmmm...

I can definitely agree with Matt’s need (in order for him to PLAY well) for structure and consistency around him. But if that’s so, this year’s offense won’t be good for him. There are fewer old veterans and a fair amount of green players (Tate, Unger, Okung, Williams). His occasionally wild style of play may mean he himself doesn’t think he needs order, however.

Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...

by Cheddar28 on Jul 12, 2010 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't know if it's a preconcieved tendancy, but an unconcious tendancy.

I think if he’s sitting in a classroom he’d be likely to say he needs order, but when a play is breaking down, or a game is getting away, or a play feels like it needs to be made, his tendency is to act, then think. And his actions are going to result in bad things for him and the team at times, and great things other times.

Should Eli Manning have tried to break out of that sack in the super bowl, risking a fumble? Probably not. But in his core, he was not thinking about what the outcomes could be, he was trying to make a play. Matt Hasselbeck is not calculating, he is competitive.

It is both a strength and a weakness. And yes he needs leadership telling him to think and take care of himself. And our team needs his personality and emotional leadership just as much. Somewhere between the two is a balance that will work for the team, but it still is not without risk.

by cashless on Jul 12, 2010 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

I believe that Matt did the right thing!

Matt Hasselbeck make the Right Decision in that play when (Patrick Willis) broke Matt’s ribs..

Lets flip that play the other way and see how it looks…..

If Matt were running in to score a TD and instead of ‘Sliding’ he ‘Ran out of bounds’ to avoid contact and he ‘Slipped’ on something and then broke his ribs, What would people be saying about Matt then?….

This is the Player that Matt is he gives “US” the ‘Fans’ his body every sunday and plays through injury, That’s why I love him as our QB…

Matt has been through a lot over the past 2 seasons, This year it looks like the O-line will be some what solid on (paper anyway)….

Lets all give Matt the benefit of the doubt here, and with a improved O-line in 2010 see what he can make of it…….

I for one think he will have a great season…..IMHO…

by tank51 on Jul 12, 2010 2:07 PM PDT reply actions  

The problem was that Matt didn't slide.

He barreled into the endzone unprotected. Had he gone into a slide, it would have been against the rules and a penalty on Willis, which very well could have prevented the hard hit that broke Matt’s ribs.

by BrianL on Jul 12, 2010 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

"He barreled into the endzone unprotected. Had he gone into a slide, it would have been against the rules and a penalty on Willis, which very well could have prevented the hard hit that broke Matt’s ribs."

So then he slides and Willis dives in and goes helmet to helmet and puts Matt out for a whole year like Trent Green a few years ago. Hell, when I was younger, and in pretty good shape, I had an allergy induced sneezing fit and bruised 2 ribs.

Injury of any severity can occur at any time in any situation. Granted what he did may have resuted in a higher chance of injury, it’s Football, and even the safest most routine play can result in career ending injury.

Remember when Bill Gramatica tore up his knee just jumping in celebration? Everyone calls that a bonehead move, but who would have ever thought that would or could have happened? How many times do you see players jump in pregame or while celebrating?

How about when LT ended Theismanns career? Just a routine play. So why not just go balls out? I would rather go down swinging than to get blindsided unaware.

OOOOOH!!!!! That was NASTY!!!!!!!!

by bmxnw on Jul 13, 2010 8:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

The Green play was a fluke injury on a dirty hit.

And you’re right, anything could happen in a football game. On any given play a career could be ended, which is exactly why it’s stupid to expose yourself unnecessarily. Hasselbeck is at enough risk as it is, he doesn’t need to take any additional hits.

by Nate Dogg on Jul 13, 2010 8:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

I appreciate the enthusiasm of your comment.

If I can offer two suggestions:

Cut out the “…” They are unnecessary and distracting and take away from the power of your comment.

Also, standard capitalization rules, please. No need to randomly pepper a sentence with capitalized words.

Thanks.

by John Morgan on Jul 12, 2010 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

grammar

You would make my wife the English teacher proud. Perhaps your gramarian tendencies can get her interested in the Seahawks.

by Jack*ss on Jul 12, 2010 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ok!

What if, That was the Super Bowl on the Line,

What would you want Matt to do?

1) Matt to Slid feet first?

or

2) Go balls to the wall and try for the TD?

by tank51 on Jul 12, 2010 2:17 PM PDT reply actions  

That isn't relevant, though, is it?

Hasselbeck wasn’t diving with the Super Bowl on the line. It was week two, an easily convertible touchdown and Hasselbeck didn’t help his team by diving to the turf. Just because something is “brave” or shows passion does not mean it’s a good decision, and Hasselbeck is smart enough to know that.

by John Morgan on Jul 12, 2010 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

No the super bowl wasn't on the line, But..

Matt leads by his toughness, an that is what has made him an elite QB over his career…

The same goes for defensive side of the ball too..

If, Aaron Curry brakes his shoulder this season tackling someone are you going to say, He shouldn’t have tackled him so hard?

by tank51 on Jul 12, 2010 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Matt leads through his performance and how much he helps the team win.

And after his injury the Seahawks lost the next three games.

Hasselbeck made a bad and unnecessary decision and his teammates suffered because of it. No one rallied because he was hurt. The season crumbled.

by John Morgan on Jul 12, 2010 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Are you honestly saying...

You think the injury to Matt was the whole reason that the seahawks went 5-11?

What happened on the defensive side of the ball with Lofa going down was just as big as matt getting injured….

How about jim mora’s inability to get any kind of game plan put together on offense or defense… or jim mora’s lack of leadership as a head coach…

there where many more factors then just one play were matt gets his ribs broke

by tank51 on Jul 12, 2010 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think you have made up your mind.

At this point, you are making up arguments to refute.

You seem to think there is some abstract good to Hasselbeck sacrificing his body though it clearly hurt his team, and I am not going to convince you otherwise.

by John Morgan on Jul 12, 2010 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

no.

You are standing your ground just like, I’m standing my ground on the issue.. That’s all..

I respect your opinions on the matter..

Was matt’s injury a huge loss for this team last year?…yes, But it wasn’t the entire reason the Seahawks went 5-11.. That’s all I’m saying

by tank51 on Jul 12, 2010 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

That 49er's game was still winnable when Hass got hurt

And we let the Bears game slip right through our fingers. A healthy Hasselbeck could have potentially prevented both loses, but his prideful decision to run it in but a much-less talented QB (Seneca Wallace) into the mix, who almost single-handedly lost us the Bears game.

The Willis hit was also an example of Matt’s loss of faith in his receivers, as well as a loss of faith in his own arm to make tough throws. Hopefully those issues have been corrected before the regular season begins.

by J.L. White on Jul 12, 2010 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not the entire reason, but it's a very big reason.

The NFL is a passing league and obviously the QB is vital to a team’s success in that regard. Going from Matt Hasselbeck to Seneca Wallace (about as replacement level as you can get) for that stretch of time was disastrous.

by BrianL on Jul 12, 2010 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

I didn't say anything like "Matt Hasselbeck's injury was the whole reason Seattle finished 5-11."

As you say, Hasselbeck’s injury was a huge loss for the team, and since Hasselbeck was most responsible for the injury, it clearly was not a good decision.

by John Morgan on Jul 12, 2010 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm totally with you, but you aren't going to win points with JM on this

In retrospect it was not smart to dive unprotected and take that kind of hit. Moving forward, I don’t want to take the competative fire out of anyone. Neutering our QB to slide anytime a defender comes within 10 yards of him isn’t going to do a damn bit of good. The guy is competative and he pushed things to far trying to win. He/We got unlucky. Next time I hope he is just as competative and we get lucky.

by stufr on Jul 15, 2010 4:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

Its not a matter of can't

Its just not as easy as saying it. I would hope Matt learned from that, but at the time, weather he could or couldn’t, he was thinking TD. i just don’t think you can change his thought process if he thinks he can score.

by stufr on Jul 16, 2010 3:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

Hasselbeck's injuries had far more impact than anything on the season

Those other factors certainly contributed, but at the end of the day we couldn’t sustain drives or score points (when the game was competitive – not counting garbage time).

"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM

by Nick Andron on Jul 12, 2010 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Aaron Curry is a beast.

Matt Hasselbeck is a brittle middle aged white dude, but he is on myoplex.

by nickfru1 on Jul 12, 2010 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Please use the reply button.

In that exact same situation in the Super Bowl, down 10 on the 4 yard line with a minute to go and all of their time outs, I would want Matt to slide and then throw the easy touchdown pass so he could continue to play the rest of the game. It was incredibly stupid for him to sacrifice himself and his team like that in week two, it’d be even dumber if he’d done it in the Super Bowl.

by Nate Dogg on Jul 12, 2010 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's terrible to say...

I would hate to think the whole team thinking, I’m just going to play not to get hurt…

Soft teams play soft….

by tank51 on Jul 12, 2010 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

So would you have your HB coach stop preaching no fumbles and start teaching them to try and break every tackle, like Adrian Peterson?

Kick returners to go for the kick return every time?

Coaches teach their players to have certain responses to specific situations, because they take in the risk/reward of them. If a punt goes to the 3 yardline, a PR is told to let it go, if there are three tacklers standing around the PR with the ball in the air, they are supposed to fair catch. Hasselbeck was supposed to slide there.

Sliding when the other team’s player is aiming for you is the right move for most quarterbacks. He is not Vick, Elway, Vince Young, he is Matt Hasselbeck. Keeping himself healthy for the next play is taught to him, he chose to risk himself, but at the same time he chose to risk the team’s chances of winning.

by cashless on Jul 12, 2010 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

I think we are oversimplifying things

I agree that the end result was unfortunate. And I think both Matt and Jim Mora would rather have that one back.

But I’m not sure it’s fair to say that Matt’s decision to scramble was wrong, or his decision to go for the endzone, or his decision not to slide. I think that it was probably a series of decisions, some conscious, some subconscious, that led to the unslide/injury. Some of those decisions may have been wrong, but they were tiny and should not be isolated and taken out of context.

Perhaps Matt misjudged the distance between him and Willis – in that case, it’s not a bad decision, but a mistake in judgment. Maybe he got something in his eye. At the time he tucks the ball, Julius Jones (a good blocking RB, remember?) is in position to block Willis, and Matt makes an error in thinking that Jones can/will block Willis. It’s pretty obvious that most QBs in that situation would not have expected that kind of hit.

My point isn’t that anyone is right or wrong. I just hate to see this oversimplified. I certainly agree that as Matt gets older – his coordination, awareness, and abilities will fade. If the talent around him continues to deteriorate, his aging will be exacerbated. He will need to admit and embrace this to be successful. Still, look at Warner – who has never been as athletic as Hasselbeck.

In the years leading up to the Cards’ SB run, Warner took too many sacks and hits trying to make something happen. I don’t know that he took less risks the year they broke through – I remember lots of commentary on how brave/foolish he was for taking so many hits – but once the talent/system gelled, it went from desparate plays to calculated risks – and I imagine that at the NFL level, it’s a pretty fine line between them.

If the Seahawks can improve the talent and system around him, I still have some hope that Matt’s short passing skills/quick reads can make for a successful formula.

I don’t necessarily expect that those things will happen. :)

by PerryCollective on Jul 12, 2010 10:00 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Just to add to Perry's comment...

…I didn’t like the hit from Willis when I first saw it, because I was under the (false) impression that Matt was already down by contact, and the hit utterly unnecessary.

As it turns out, Matt wasn’t down, but even so, Willis did not have to crush him like he did in order to prevent Matt scoring.

So, while Matt either did a brave/stupid/competitive (depending on who you believe in the previous comments above) he had no reason to believe, as Perry point out, that he would get creamed like he did.

On the flip side, if Willis had been injured instead of Matt, he would be the one getting criticized by his coach and the fans for making such a stupid hit that wasn’t even necessary. At least Matt was going for the endzone, while technically, all Willis had to do was touch him because Matt was already on the ground.

by Hawksince77 on Jul 13, 2010 6:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

Are you serious?

The QB is a target. Defenders are always taught to hit the QB as hard as they legally can. Willis did that, and it worked.

by cashless on Jul 13, 2010 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

You're probably right.

And Alex Smith probably shook his hand after the play. “Payback’s a bitch,” he told Willis, with a smile.

by Hawksince77 on Jul 13, 2010 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

It was wrong. You're overanalysing this.

There is a special rule that allows quarterbacks to slide to avoid taking unnecessary hits. Hasselbeck, instead of sliding, fell to the ground at the one yard line and exposed himself to every defender on the field. Whether it was mistaken judgement or a bad decision, it was wrong. Theres no need to try to make this complicated, it was a very simple decision that Hasselbeck did not make correctly.

by Nate Dogg on Jul 13, 2010 8:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not trying to "make this complicated"

or even disagree with you. It obviously was the wrong decision, in hindsight. And I know about the QB slide rule. However, only in a Dragon’s Lair videogame version of the game does it boil down to a slide/no slide decision.

I’m not sure I can ever remember a QB sliding that close to the goal line. I’m sure it’s probably happened, but I can’t remember it. I also can’t remember a guy getting hurt from a shot while on the ground. There is no forward progress, so RBs and WRs will usually just get a touch from LBs/DBs if they are already on the ground. I’m sure if MH knew he was going to take that shot AND not make it to the end zone, he would have slid.

You can keep on treating it as a binary if you want.

by PerryCollective on Jul 13, 2010 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

Watch the youtube video I posted below of the play.

He had zero chance of making it to the end zone. If he thought he had a chance, he was wrong and his decision was wrong. You can add as many scenarios as you want to understand why he did what he did, but ultimately he has to understand that he’s the quarterback and he can’t risk that hit.

He could have slid, he could have ran to the sidelines and gotten out of bounds or he could have thrown the ball away. Quarterbacks do all of those things near the goal line all the time, you can’t remember them because they’re pretty routine, boring plays. And the shot he took wasn’t while he was on the ground. He was falling forward into a group of 49ers when Willis nailed him.

by Nate Dogg on Jul 13, 2010 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Copy

Neuter the QB
I hate sliding.

by stufr on Jul 15, 2010 4:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

?

Players are coached to score touchdowns very time the touch the ball, the fumbles are on the player to fix…

and there are plenty of players in the league that fight for extra yards that don’t fumble the ball..

by tank51 on Jul 12, 2010 2:54 PM PDT reply actions  

I am guessing this was meant to be a reply to my post just above this.

SB Nation can eat reply attempts and stick them down here…happens to me every once in a while.

Players are coached to score touchdowns in high school, even college sometimes. In the NFL even Reggie Bush hurts his team far too often trying to do the same thing he did in college. His tendancy to believe he can score on any play, and frequent attempts to take risks that are unwarrented are punished over and over again in the NFL. NFL defenders are far too disciplined, far too big, and far too athletic for most of those tricks to work.

the fumbles are on the player to fix…

and there are plenty of players in the league that fight for extra yards that don’t fumble the ball..
Fumbles are often a personal problem, but at the same time, coaching is more sophisticated than simply “don’t fumble, go score a touchdown.”

Since you do seem to think that coaching is that simple, I am probably wasting my time.

by cashless on Jul 12, 2010 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oops

Last part should look like this:

the fumbles are on the player to fix…

and there are plenty of players in the league that fight for extra yards that don’t fumble the ball..

Fumbles are often a personal problem, but at the same time, coaching is more sophisticated than simply "don’t fumble, go score a touchdown."

Since you do seem to think that coaching is that simple, I am probably wasting my time.

by cashless on Jul 12, 2010 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

??????????????????

Wasting your time???

Get off your high horse Classless

If coaching was that simple, Then 5th,6th & 7th rounders would make the roster ever year…

If your a fumbler then your a fumbler the coach can only do so much,,, It’s up to the player to take his coaching and learn form it…

and if your a player that is willing to sacrifice his body for the better of team like (Hasselbeck) is then there is no amount of coaching that will take that out of him…

by tank51 on Jul 12, 2010 6:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Tank, there are a lot of sites where you'll fit in nicely

This does not appear to be one of them.

inside of a dog it's too dark to read.

by shams on Jul 12, 2010 7:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Your right about that!

This site seem to be of (One Mind) and that’s it…..

Everyone here seem to be spiting out the lame thing…..

“Your wrong and I’m right”

and everyone thinking their the, know all to end all, in seahawks football….

by tank51 on Jul 12, 2010 7:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

...............................................

I’m usually a easy to get along with person, But, 10mins into this site everyone jumps down my throat…….

You all must be the type of fans that think no one else could possibly know more then you because you are the high and almighty….right?

by tank51 on Jul 12, 2010 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think the namecalling is where you went wrong

You’re welcome to disagree. I like that sort of thing. But being uncivil is unpleasant, and nobody likes unpleasant.

by DrunkAmerican on Jul 12, 2010 7:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Welcome to disagree, given his arguments are cogent and, well, make some degree of sense.

Open-mindedness is a necessity; if you’re wrong, and someone presents evidence that indicates such, be ready to change your opinion.

by THolt on Jul 12, 2010 9:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

That goes both ways.

I learn something I never thought about, or something I was wrong about nearly every day on this website. I have no issue with believing I’m wrong, my biggest goal here is to hear what people have to say, think about it, and either give a counter or accept it as more right than whatever is in my head.

What are you doing when people here are saying that decisions are made by football players? Just stating what you believe as facts again, rather than telling me why you think I am wrong.

I believe that on offense especially, decisions based on the situation are made all the time. For example, after a catch made by a WR with 30 seconds left, down by 3 points, the next move is going to be going for the sideline to get out of bounds. If that WR is going to ignore any decision making and just go for the end zone, they will be sinking the team’s chances of winning if they fail.

In that situation, a WR is taught to take less yards to ensure the chance to make another play. Matt Hasselbeck is taught to do the same.

Do you remember Mark Sanchez not sliding last season? How much his coach was unhappy with him about getting hurt when he had been taught over and over again to slide?

The same is taught throughout the league, to every non-scrambling quarterback. Mostly because defenders are told to take shots at the QB if he lets you. If he’s gonna try to run like a HB, but have a body like a kicker or WR, hit him as hard as you can and remind him he’s playing football.

by cashless on Jul 12, 2010 9:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sometimes it feels like group think around here, but it really isn't, it just can feel that way when you are on the other side of the masses

I’ve been on both sides. But playground rules won’t work here, you will just end up saying, uh huh, and the other side will say, nuh uh, alot. You made your point above. Back it up once or twice and then if you can’t bring up more facts or a different perspective to back up youself up throw down a solid IMHO and walk away. Inveriably someone will back you up or make a similar arguement that helps you out.
When you made your original statement I could have just about guessed who was going to go after you and who would support you. We’ve had this discussion before.

by stufr on Jul 15, 2010 4:48 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

You know what's funny?

when John writes something, it’s usually so well articulated and supported, even if I disagreed prior, I am convinced. And then I see the majority agree with him, and I look at it all and say, well, he made a good point, it’s hard to argue with that, the majority agree because it just makes sense.

And then there’s a handful of times where I don’t agree. I speak up sometimes but not often. I may not have much to say about it, other than I’m not convinced. But when the majority still seems to agree with him, I look at it and say, well, he’s got a lot of away over weaker minds.

As though my mind is not weak.

People who are convinced by John aren’t weak minded, though. We often agree with him because we’re reasonable, and he’s very careful and thoughtful in the views he chooses to assert. So it’s natural that he’s spot on, from the perspective of the majority, most of the time.

Great post, mate. Very well said.

by jacobstevens on Jul 15, 2010 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the new name, I'll wear it proudly.

Did you understand what I wrote about the decisions a kick returner is taught to make, or a punt returner, or the example of Reggie Bush?

None of these are helping you to believe that a football player actually has to make the right decisions, and not just try to get the most out of every play? These are fundamentals that are taught on every level. Some players are just so good that in high school, and occasionally in college they can get away with doing whatever they want on any play. Not in the NFL.

by cashless on Jul 12, 2010 9:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well.

I guess this is a question of Heart and not the Ability to try and make plays…

it’s always been my thinking, That I will always root for the guys that are willing to risk it all for the better for the team (to win the game) not to worry about what will happen in week 16..

by tank51 on Jul 12, 2010 7:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

There's a time and place to make that move.

Not in week 2 in the 1st half of a close game.

The Dos Equis guy wishes he was Brock Lesnar.

by SSreporters on Jul 12, 2010 9:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's oversimplification to the point of idiocy.

Players are coached to do the thing that gives the team the best shot at a Super Bowl win. Period.

by THolt on Jul 12, 2010 9:05 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Its not idiocy

Restraint might be in order during week 2, but competativeness is not idiocy.

by stufr on Jul 15, 2010 4:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

The West Coast Offense passing game and zone blocking running game are mostly about positive yards and manegable downs

Not home runs. Players who go for the home run all the time often kill drives with their negative plays.

by B.B.Finnegan on Jul 13, 2010 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

Matt just can't stay healthy and at his age, can be relied on to

I don’t even know anymore if he’s any good healthy, because when is he? When was he? The first game and a half (and the first game against the Rams)? A constantly hurt QB is a bad QB. Here’s hoping Whitehurst is better than Seneca. Here’s hoping the FO ups their efforts at getting a franchise QB next year.

by B.B.Finnegan on Jul 12, 2010 3:45 PM PDT reply actions  

Addendum

It’s really hard to tell last year how much of it was Hasselbeck’s injuries or Knapp’s offense. The second half of the season, it looked as though he either didn’t know where to go with the ball, or had no confidence in his ability to get it there.

by B.B.Finnegan on Jul 12, 2010 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hindsight is golden

And that’s all there is to say about that, IMHO.

Seahawks Fans Cannot Be Cured

by TheLaird on Jul 12, 2010 4:03 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

agreed

I was at the game, at the time it seemed like a great play. Then shortly after it felt like the season ended.

by Hancock.Brett on Jul 12, 2010 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Even in a game where each and every action has potentially unforseeable consequences

It was obvious Matt should have done the QB slide and set up for a short-yardage TD play.

by Buster! on Jul 12, 2010 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

what down did that occur on?

I think it was 3rd…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI

Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!

by jubelthebear on Jul 12, 2010 9:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

ah, thank you

I actually couldn’t remember.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI

Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!

by jubelthebear on Jul 12, 2010 9:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Right, second

Which is why I remember it vividly as being the absolutely, irrevocably, undeniably wrong thing to do. The Bugs Bunny voice in my head kept yelling, “Slide, DiMaggio, slide!”

by Buster! on Jul 12, 2010 10:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

If the outcome were different

If he had crossed the goal line and Patrick Willis didn’t injure him, I don’t think we’d be having this argument.

Seahawks Fans Cannot Be Cured

by TheLaird on Jul 12, 2010 5:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

We wouldn't be having this discussion because it wouldn't have been memorable.

But there is not much debating that a quarterback should slide to avoid contact. It is built into the rules of the NFL.

by John Morgan on Jul 12, 2010 7:36 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I think that's a little oversimplified, too.

Just in the regard that everything is situational. By and large, though, yes, that makes sense.

by THolt on Jul 12, 2010 9:08 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Situationally, on 2nd down with a timeout in the 2nd quarter

It was a stupid move.

The Dos Equis guy wishes he was Brock Lesnar.

by SSreporters on Jul 12, 2010 9:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

No disagreement here.

That was more for the sake of John’s argument than anything else.

by THolt on Jul 12, 2010 10:25 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

There's a difference between a "stupid move" and a "bad result"

And if you can’t make that distinction, I’d like to play backgammon with you for money.

Seahawks Fans Cannot Be Cured

by TheLaird on Jul 13, 2010 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

It was a stupid move.

The bad result was well deserved.

by Nate Dogg on Jul 13, 2010 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

If he had slid and gotten Trent Green'ed, that'd be a bad result that no one could blame him for.

He exposed himself to a hit instead of protecting himself and got hurt. We can blame him for that.

by Nate Dogg on Jul 13, 2010 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

It was a stupid move because he risked too much

If Matthew dives, best case scenario is a touchdown. Worst case scenario is an injury. Though the latter is arguably less likely, it is still not worth a chance at the former because of the following.

If Matthew slides, it is 3rd and short and we have one timeout. This is overwhelmingly the better decision.

We’re not analyzing based on results, though we are certainly analyzing because of them. Diving as a quarterback is kinda like not using a condom in that the immediate reward might be tempting, but goddamn the world if you lose that gamble.

by DrunkAmerican on Jul 13, 2010 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

Best case/worst case

“If Matthew dives, best case scenario is a touchdown. Worst case scenario is an injury.”

That is the best case/worst case scenario for any football play.

Seahawks Fans Cannot Be Cured

by TheLaird on Jul 13, 2010 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

Both outcomes are significantly more likely in this situation than in a normal play so you adjust your actions accordingly

With that said, Matthew should never be diving (unless the season is on the line) given his injury-prone status.

by DrunkAmerican on Jul 13, 2010 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

Of course, I clearly wrote it was 2nd down in the 2nd quarter

And the score was 13-3 with a timeout remaining. It’s a stupid move.

John Elway’s “Helicopter” run was on 3rd and 6 with the score tied at 17-17 in the 3rd quarter of Super Bowl 32. He also had a minimal injury history for such a long career and was able to absorb the hit and move on to finally win his Super Bowl.

Matt Hasselbeck is not John Elway. Week 2 is not the Super Bowl. The 2nd quarter and down 10 is not a tied game against a superior team in the 3rd quarter.

The move was stupid.

The Dos Equis guy wishes he was Brock Lesnar.

by SSreporters on Jul 13, 2010 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

You know what I love about football?

No sport punishes conservative play more brutally. I thought a lot about this while watching the World Cup. It’s one of the things that makes our game so exciting.

Every player risks their career on every play. Players who don’t take risks wash out of the league.

Let me make it clear: I wish Matt would have slid. But I don’t want my team to be led by the kind of QB who slides on the 2 yard line because it’s only 2nd down.

Seahawks Fans Cannot Be Cured

by TheLaird on Jul 13, 2010 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think that's a bit much

I never in a million years could imagine Peyton Manning doing what Matt did. Manning doesn’t even allow himself to be sacked anymore, he drops to the turf.

I think you are pretty badly blurring the line between the platonic ideal of a tough football player and what is actually practical in the modern game. This isn’t high school. Seattle doesn’t have another franchise quarterback waiting on the bench. Protecting himself is part of Hasselbeck’s job.

by John Morgan on Jul 13, 2010 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Matt especially should slide.

It’s built into the rules laid down by Holmgren and rent asunder by Mora.

Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...

by Cheddar28 on Jul 13, 2010 1:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

The arguments above would have some validity

If Hasselbeck had shown minimal injury history and was about 7-10 years younger. But he’s missed time 3 out of the last 4 seasons and he knows that was not an intelligent decision. The score was 13-3 and while a touchdown would’ve been great, it was only 2nd down and Seattle had 1 timeout left. Based on those circumstances, it was not worth the risk to pull off that move.

This pretty much damaged the season and of course led to two weeks of Seneca Wallace’s gross incompetence that more or less sealed his fate as trade bait/cut material.

The Dos Equis guy wishes he was Brock Lesnar.

by SSreporters on Jul 12, 2010 5:37 PM PDT reply actions  

He should have slid down knowing his age and his ability to break

but you have to like his determination to win at all costs.

Nonsense, Poopy-Pants!

by Lo Pann on Jul 12, 2010 5:57 PM PDT reply actions  

Tell the truth John

This is your revenge for the last poll isn’t it?

by Drew_D on Jul 12, 2010 6:08 PM PDT reply actions  

I was going to do the Hasselbeck retrospective today, but Monday is a busy day at SB Nation Seattle

and I spent a portion of the day trying to fix my wife’s rock tumbler. So no, no revenge, part of a plan that wasn’t completed.

by John Morgan on Jul 12, 2010 7:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Looking at his stats

He was having a good year IMO until the last couple of games where he had 10 Picks and 4 Touchdowns.

I think that he can still be good as long as the O-Line can protect him, but then again I’m from one of the rival teams and I didn’t see a ton of Seahawks games last year.

Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].

I can't stand fair-weather/bandwagon fans, stick with your team, throughout the good and the bad. And don't switch to whichever team wins the Super Bowl each year.

by JoeCB1991 on Jul 12, 2010 7:41 PM PDT reply actions  

most of his best stats came in

a few games and one of them was a loss with a 3 score deficit. Mind you that whole Cowboy team pretty much had a good game, and the Hawks were barely making it into Cowboy territory…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI

Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!

by jubelthebear on Jul 12, 2010 8:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Seattle wasn't playing too badly

Then Forsett fumbled the ball and Ken Lucas took out Aaron Curry.

The Dos Equis guy wishes he was Brock Lesnar.

by SSreporters on Jul 12, 2010 9:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

oh yeah

The defense wasn’t doin too much to stop Dallas that whole game. Don’t know what the primary (or secondary) factor for that was though. Answer me why the offense did not show up in the 2nd half.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI

Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!

by jubelthebear on Jul 12, 2010 10:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not to veer off topic

but we stuck with ‘em for the first half and were undone by penalties which combined with consistent Cowboy play to seal the Hawks’ fate.

Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...

by Cheddar28 on Jul 13, 2010 1:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

Stopped reading right here...

“Hasselbeck was not a victim of injuries and injury-related decline. Hasselbeck actively injured himself. He made a poor decision, threw himself at Patrick Willis’s feet and struggled up after a crunching tackle minus two intact ribs.”

by JustinWF on Jul 12, 2010 7:44 PM PDT reply actions  

You were hoping for what, fiction?

Start with Uncle Remus to get your feet wet.

inside of a dog it's too dark to read.

by shams on Jul 12, 2010 8:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'd rather see Matt go more 'Chad Pennington'.

Play smart, know your limitations (that would be your arm, Matt).

Red Bryant: surprise us!

by Misfit74 on Jul 13, 2010 1:17 AM PDT reply actions  

arm,

ribs, back, knee, hand… etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI

Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!

by jubelthebear on Jul 13, 2010 7:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

This is an example of why I'd make a terrible front office executive

I get too attached emotionally. I love Matt Hasselbeck. He is my favorite current Seahawk, and in my top 4 or 5 all-time. I wear his jersey on game-days, and was almost physically ill when he crumpled at the sideline after taking that shot from Willis last year.

I want the team to win, and I think we have leadership that will yank Beck when he is no longer the QB that gives the team the best chance to win, and will draft the QB of the future next April.

But in my perfect world, Hass stays healthy, bounces back to Pro Bowl form, and we make the playoffs. Whitehurst stays glued to the bench, and Beck’s renaissance precludes the needs for drafting a new QB.

Not bloody likely, but I still hope for a happy ending to Beck’s career.. and in Seattle, too.

"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper

by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on Jul 13, 2010 9:01 AM PDT reply actions  

I'm with you. I want Hass to rebound so badly.

Partially because I love Matt. And partially because the mere thought of our QBs in ‘the wings’ make me ill.

"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM

by Nick Andron on Jul 13, 2010 9:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

Thought the call was ok at the time, seemed like a missed block - even if Willis is just chipped a little, Matt doesn't take that hit.

How about lack of confidence in blockers, RBs AND receivers contributing to pressing too much? I still say he will be effective this year as there is a MUCH better supporting cast (better O line, more depth at receiver, lots of tall targets, and JJ, JForce, Carlson, Washington when healthy. Mike Williams, Housh and Golden are all decent-to-excellent options on the checkdown).

The things that made him a viable NFL QB were his patience at taking what a defense would give him (box scores regularly showing completions to 7-9 different receivers), his fierce competitiveness and his teammates buying into that. Ryan Leaf had a strong arm, and so did JaMarcus. Keep him upright, make him just get rid of the ball before he gets killed, and let his weapons do their thing and you will see a return to form.

2005 was 2005 because of the line, Mack Strong, DJack and big, physical targets at the receiver spot. And 2007 was 2007 because nobody could run – no Hutch, no Tobeck, and, most important, no Strong – Alexander was having another great year until the play that ended Mack’s career in Shittsburg.

Last year was last year in large part due to Knapp’s playbook, Mora’s lack of leadership, and a BUNCH of unnecessary injuries (Tru’s back having the same problem Matt’s did the YEAR before? 2 dozen guys with groin pulls? Good riddance, conditioning staff!!!), not to mention the QBs of the offense and defense being out. Oh yeah, and Curry moved out of the position he played that made him a star. And on and on…

Just hope Matt hasn’t gone all Jim Zorn on us: plenty left in the tank, but having absorbed so many shots due to a shitty supporting cast he can no longer be effective. If so, maybe he can do what Dilfer and Zorn did – be an extra bench coach for the guy who takes his spot.

by bleedshawkblue on Jul 13, 2010 9:23 AM PDT reply actions  

JJ had a hand on Willis

just prior to Matt making the decision to run for it. It is possible Matt thought JJ would engage more so his attention was drawn to Dre Bly on the outside. He tried the backyard fake pump and ducked to the inside where Willis landed on his exposed back. JJ had an opportunity to delay Willis, but I am sure he was trying to gain a little separation as he did not know the play was breaking down.

by Bad Mayo on Jul 13, 2010 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

I am one of the biggest Matt supporters out here and will be until the very end.

 I do think he was trying to do too much, However I do not think he is above reproach and/or criticism. There were times when he woulda/coulda/shoulda held the ball instead of throwing into double or triple coverage, a stunt he may have gotten away with 3 to 5 years ago, when healthy, but with age and injury to his ribs and back he just didn;t have the zip he had back in the day. If healthy and w/an O-line that gives him time to set, throw, and not have to improvise on the run, these things will not be as prevalent.

Beer, its not just for breakfast anymore.

by Dougula on Jul 13, 2010 1:37 PM PDT reply actions  

I barely saw last season, I was deployed.

But in the past it seemed to me that Hasselbeck threw out of bounds when he could roll out of the pocket, or if he had a route out there. I am not sure if he had time last season for a play to progress long enough for either of those.

by cashless on Jul 13, 2010 9:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Funny

The Seahawks suck when I am not deployed, but play awesome when I am or when I am based overseas.
I will be deployed at the end of the season. If you are staying home, we could be in for a good season.

by stufr on Jul 15, 2010 4:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

I plan on staying home until maybe January.

So if we are still going strong then, maybe I should break a leg or something.

by cashless on Jul 15, 2010 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

Unfrtunately I'm deploying in Jan

Which means that our fates are against and for the hawks

by stufr on Jul 16, 2010 3:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

"It was all the o-line's fault."

Boy did I get tired of that one.

"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM

by Nick Andron on Jul 13, 2010 2:04 PM PDT reply actions  

Some of it is true (Steve Vallos)

But yeah I’m tired of that argument.

The Dos Equis guy wishes he was Brock Lesnar.

by SSreporters on Jul 13, 2010 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

One could argue that it STARTED with the line.

But it definitely ended with Hasselbeck. Near mid-point of the season, the line was mostly intact and playing decent ball (this becomes more true toward the end of the season).

"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM

by Nick Andron on Jul 13, 2010 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Vallos wans't so bad.

More so as a run blocker. But he was a full Justin Forsett above how he played in 2009.

by John Morgan on Jul 13, 2010 9:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

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