Predicting the Seahawks Leo End
by John Morgan on Jul 7, 2010 11:11 AM PDT
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PrintSeattle is, presumably, the first NFL team to employ a 4-3 with a 3-4 alignment. Now, if we want to get technical, many coaches would argue it is not the specific stance of the individual linemen and linebackers that makes the front seven a "3-4" or "4-3" but their duties, and by that standard Wade Phillips and others have employed 4-3 concepts with 3-4 personnel for years. But screw that, right? That's no fun.
The Seahawks have a standup or "Leo" end where other teams employ a pass rushing linebacker. Fundamentally, the two are very similar positions. Seattle does not have a talent even remotely close to DeMarcus Ware, Elvis Dumervil or Clay Matthews. It has a four camp bodies and an emphasis on competition.
Who do you want at Leo? It's easy enough to vote that Chris Clemons will begin the season starting, but that isn't what I am asking. Among the four most likely candidates, who among Clemons, Ricky Foley, Dexter Davis and Nick Reed do you want starting week one? Who do you think has the best potential? And why?
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I voted for Ricky Foley
because he’s the prestigious winner of the Dr. Beattie Martin Trophy.
Nonsense, Poopy-Pants!
My vote is Chris Clemons. I want to feel good about the Tapp trade.
I want to have confidence in Carroll and Schneider. So it would be best for Clemons to work out. But really, I just want the best man to win, and be really good.
I also voted for Clemons.
What I’ve re-watched of him from last year in some Eagles games, I think he can get it done effectively. Especially if he is not overused leading to him getting banged up.
Red Bryant: surprise us!
Interesting - can you expand on what you saw from him?
"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM
Well,
Once example is I saw him use Dallas’ right tackle as his bitch on one pass-rush for a sack. He looked explosive as can be. Unfortunately only limited snaps and washed out pretty easily on run plays. I’ll be the first to admit that I need to see more from him, but I think his explosiveness from snap to whistle is very good.
Red Bryant: surprise us!
Haha, Ricky Foley is winning?
Where’d that come from?
Personally, I also just want the best guy to win. It would be nice if it was one of the younger ones, though…
I want Dexter Davis to win
because to win, he’s going to have to turn out a lot better than anyone thinks . . . consider it a vote for wishful thinking.
by The Ancient Mariner on Jul 7, 2010 11:45 AM PDT reply actions
Yeah, I voted Davis as well.
I wasn’t sure if I should or not, because I think if Davis actually starts week one that it’ll likely be more of a statement about Clemons and crew than it is about Davis. But I went with wishful thinking anyways.
Stance, personnel, duties. Yeah, I'd probably agree with those coaches.
Stance isn’t significant enough to me to be the distinguishing factor. Personnel is, or would be, except that the distinction is largely size and weight. Duties. When you got a guy, no matter his size, no matter his stance, who primarily rushes the passer, he’s a rusher.
So then a rusher is an end, right? But an end is on the end of the line. Sigh.
Clemons, hands down.
He has the most NFL experience and has actually had a (singular, sigh) productive NFL season.
If he can’t succeed in that position, I have a hard time believing a slough of late round picks (and a UFL standout) with little to no NFL experience, can succeed.
Wow, what a shitty situation. Our pass rush is going to suck =(
"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM
I don't understand, you don't think the position can be successful if Chris Clemons can't succeed there?
Clemons isn’t very good, he could very easily fail and the Leo position would still be a viable role. Clemons himself was undrafted and it’s not like a ton of experience is needed to be able to rush the passer.
I don't think that position will succeed on the 2010 Hawks team if Clemons fails
Because I see him as our best player (that’s currently on the team) that can fill the “Leo” role.
"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM
He is the best player, but not by much
I’m not sure how much of a downgrade (if any) replacing Clemons with Reed at the Leo there would be, so judging Carroll’s entire defensive scheme on one (undrafted) player seems a touch drastic to me.
An undrafted player that recorded an 8-sack year as a situational DE
Barring MAJOR STRIDES, I’d say he’s by far better than Nick Reed.
"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM
by Nick Andron on Jul 7, 2010 3:39 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Being "far better than Nick Reed" seems to be an overly optimistic opinion of Chris Clemons
Some guy convinced me that Clemons was old, oft-injured and overly expensive. 8 sacks three years ago is not going to get me too excited, especially since the preseason wonder (Reed) was benched and overlooked by Jim freaking Mora II. If Mora didn’t like Reed that tells me that Reed is guaranteed a HOF career and finish with 5 million sacks. This season.
I kid, but only a little bit. Because fuck Jim Mora II.
Whether Nick meant it this way or not, I don't know for sure, but I think I agree with him.
How I would describe it is, the likelihood of Reed, Davis or Foley working out as a decent starter is less than for Clemons. So if Clemons ends up not keeping the starting job (his to lose), we’re probably in worse shape no matter which other guy ends up doing better and taking the job from him.
Kind of like, if Mike Williams and Golden Tate don’t revitalize the WR corps, and guys like Kole Heckendorf and Mike Hass end up being the 3rd & 4th receivers, that bodes very poorly for the pass offense.
by jacobstevens on Jul 8, 2010 12:36 AM PDT up reply actions
In your example, I think Deon Butler and/or Ben Obumanu would more analogous to Reed
But I do agree that Clemons is our best bet for success at the Leo position. But I don’t think Clemons is too much better than Reed.
Analogy to Butler is a stretch; he was a 3rd round pick.
But Obo is right on the money
"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM
Exactly right!
I don’t think Clemons is particularly good, but I do think he’s likely the most skilled (NOT necessarily the same as talented) of the bunch.
"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM
naturally
Nick Reed gets a bazillion votes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI
Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!
If the poll was who fans wanted to start at QB and Reed was a choice, Nick Reed would win
Seahawk fans go absolutely apeshit for Nick Reed. I’d like to see him make some more big plays against 1st-string competition before I succumb to the Nick Reed mancrush, though.
by J.L. White on Jul 7, 2010 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think I missed the whole Nick Reed thing.
What did he do to deserve all this discussion?
Competent agree.
He had a good preseason and completely disappeared in the regular season.
He’s a complete nonfactor at this point.
"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM
by Nick Andron on Jul 7, 2010 3:40 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
How many games did Reed start?
How many games did he appear in?
The answer to the first question is 0. Not sure about the second.
Lawrence Jackson started 10 games in 2009 (according to NFL.com) and is credited with a total of 32 tackles and 4.5 sacks.
With zero starts, Nick Reed is credited with 17 tackles and 1 sack.
This doesn’t appear to me as if he completely disappeared during the regular season, despite the lack of playing time. Like Forsett, Reed prospered in the pre-season, and given the nature of the LEO position, you would think it would suit him quite well, as all he has done in college and the pros is get after the QB.
It will be interesting to see if he gets the opportunity.
Here are some more interesting stats from last year:
Curry – 12 starts, 2 sacks
Hill – 11 starts, 1 sack
Cory Redding appeared in 15 games and was credited with 20 tackles and 2 sacks.
Wonder what Reed’s numbers would look like over a season.
And just to round out the 2009 defensive line:
Mebane – 15 starts, 49 tackles, 1.5 sacks
Cole – 15 starts, 48 tackles, zero sacks.
So, uh...
…are we supposed to respond to all of those?
Here's what I am thinking...
…although I don’t really know for sure.
Perhaps Nick Reed is one of those under-sized, non-standard-for-the-position kind of guys that simply plays really good football.
The Wes Welker, if you will, of the D-line. The Drew Brees type, lacking proto-typical measurements but plays the position very well. Like Justin Forsett.
The league discriminates against such players, and they get drafted low. At that point, it’s a constant struggle to get onto the field in order to demonstrate their effectiveness.
Sometimes they shine in pre-season (like Reed and Forsett) and it’s simply put down to playing against inferior competition. If that is the case, then what is the pre-season for? Isn’t that the time to evaluate how a player actually performs under comepetitive conditions?
It’s not just about height, or weight, or how far a player can throw a ball (Russell), or fast they run the forty. At some point, game skill comes into play; instincts, reflexes, will power, intelligence. It all adds up, and for Reed it seems to add up to making plays – sacking the QB, forcing fumbles, intercepting (Whitehurst’s) passes, making tackles.
I wonder if Reed is that kind of player, or just an under-sized, properly drafted, career back-up.
There are huge differences between Reed and Welker & Brees.
Welker does not have great straight line speed, but he is unbelievably quick and agile. Brees does not have a cannon arm, but he has a very, very good arm. Those aren’t two guys that do it with skill and hustle, they’re two guys whose talent was undervalued.
Reed isn’t like that, he doesn’t excel at an undervalued talent. He’s slow, he’s not particularly quick, he’s not agile, he’s not strong and he’s not big. He’s very polished, he has a good arsenal of pass rush moves, but he leaves so much to be desired physically he’ll never be much more than a back up specialist on a successful team, a la Craig Terrill.
Regarding Brees, I was actually referring to his lack of height...
…he is listed at 6.0, which is very very short for a QB.
He also has a mediocre arm, but that wasn’t his main departure from the prototype.
And as far as Welker goes...
…he went undrafted because of his lack of measurables, and he couldn’t get a scholarship out of HS. He is the poster boy for overcoming the standard pre-conceived prototypes.
And you are probably right about Reed, in that he may never be able to overcome...
…his physical limitations. But I would love to see him given a genuine opportunity before that conclusion is conclusively reached.
These didn't need to be three different comments.
I think you missed my point. Brees and Welker had talents that were undervalued. Reed does not have talent, undervalued or otherwise.
Didn't start out as three comments...started out as one...
…and then I posted it…then thought of something else…posted it…
You get the idea.
I suppose, then, if Reed goes on to get double-digit sacks year in and year out, we’d have to say his talent was uber-undervalued; downright invisible; completely unforseen…
Except that he set a school record with 29.5 sacks...
…so it wouldn’t come as a COMPLETE surprise if he turned out to be a competent pass-rusher in the NFL.
Sorry, don't know Timmy.
But perhaps Colt Brennan will make your case.
Until last year, I think he held the collegiate record for wins out of Hawaii and was drafted a few years ago by the Redskins.
To my knowldege, has never played a real-season snap, and people said then (maybe even you) that he would never make it in the NFL.
Be that as it may, I think there are countless examples that go both ways. For every high-flying can’t miss future HOFer that busts, there are lots of guys (like Housh, drafted in the 7th round) who become top players.
What I don’t get is why Reed’s performance last year during the pre-season doesn’t seem to mean anything. Didn’t he lead the team in sacks? (4.5, if memory serves). Sure, not against starters, but how many players rushed the passer for Seattle during those four games, and why is it not significant that Reed had the most sacks? Along with an interception and fumble return.
I don’t know, but it seems that all Reed has is talent, because according to various comments here, his is small, weak and slow, but somehow he gets it done.
That's the thing. He hasn't really gotten anything done at the NFL level.
Preseason doesn’t count. Maybe he did have 4.5 sacks in the preseason, but who cares? Lousy players have been lighting it up in August for decades.
It certainly doesn’t mean he can’t succeed. I just wouldn’t read too much into it. I’m sure the team would love him to contribute: a local product, a seventh round pick? Fan fodder!
Forsett didn't play a snap at RB his first season...
…and he will likely be the starting (and the best) RB on the team. His story is almost identical – tore it up in the pre-season; got cut and resigned.
And then in his second year, completely outplays the starter (J. Jones) but doesn’t get the start, gets limited snaps until finally, another ’local product, a seventh round pick" might get to play to his potential.
Reed actually acomplished more his rookie season than Forsett (17 tackles and a sack). My question is, one that still hasn’t been answered (other than ‘Reed is untalented’ or ‘Reed is just bad’ etc.) why we wouldn’t expect him to perform as a starter, given what he has done to date?
I can’t believe this coaching staff would keep him on to satisfy any fans, and they’d be wrong if they did. If Reed gets cut I will assume it’s because there are better players to fill out the roster, and that’ll be fine.
I’d truly love to see, though, what he can do with some sustained playing time at a position he seems perfect for.
One guy is not a full comparison.
How many 7th rounders, even with good college numbers, come in and play well, much less start?
Just because a guy produces sacks, TD’s, or receptions at the university level does not mean they will become NFL players. He hasn’t done that much at the NFL level – preseason or not – and it’s not smart to assume that he will.
Again, I’m not saying he won’t make it. I’m saying it’s not likely. It’s not just that we’re saying he’s “bad”… look back to Nate Dogg’s post. He’s not making it up, I hope.
You're looking at general story lines and not the actual players.
We don’t have to pretend like we don’t know who Nick Reed is. We’ve all see him play and his ceiling as a player isn’t that hard to see. A few sacks in the preseason and some fill in time as a specialist in his rookie year doesn’t change what we’ve seen and know about him.
I'm slightly concerned
you used Sports Science as the hyperlink argument for Drew Brees’s arm strength.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI
Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!
Yeah, I didn't get that either. Re-read the piece, looked for something implicating Reed...
…or otherwise pertinet, and couldn’t find anything.
while we're talking about undervalued
Mike Vrabel should be thrown somewhere into this argument.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI
Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!
He has a shot at starting at the Leo position
All the guys John listed in the poll do. Right now Clemons seems to be slotted as “starter”, but essentially it is up for any of the four to grab.
by Thomas Beekers on Jul 7, 2010 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Why are you quoting stats for a bunch of people that won't play in the Leo position?
My point was Chris Clemons has, in his career, produced solid numbers. Nick Reed played last year (albeit not much) and did pretty much nothing.
To quote JM: “The point is, Reed is not built like a football player. He is small, small of frame, light, modestly tall, slow and not the least bit explosive.”
If Reed ends up starting over Clemons for one reason or another, we’re likely in a world of hurt when it comes to pass rush.
"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM
Clemons has not produced solid numbers over his career.
And while Nick Reed may not have had the most productive rookie season he ended up with 6 more tackles than Clemons and 2 less sacks, in limited playing time. And while no one is going to mistake Reed for an athlete he’s not without skill. From that same post:
Reed can throw down on the clumsy maulers that will struggle with his quickness off the line and exceptional pass rush repertoire
I apologize, I should have worded that sentence differently.
I meant to say “At one point in his career, Clemons has produced solid numbers”.
As for his stats last year: he wasn’t utilized in Philadelphia, and barely played.
The Leo sounds like a role that’ll play well to Clemons’ strengths as a pass rusher. He’ll likely get dominated in the run game.
"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM
I happen to think Nick Reed was utilized just right
Any moreso would have been over-utilization =P
He’s pretty bad.
"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM
I don't care one way or another...
…if he is a bad player. No reason to take up a roster spot if that is the case.
Sure he's pretty bad, but we're talking about Clemons, Foley and Davis as competition.
Pretty bad might be good enough.
I was quoting the stats of all the pass rushers of 2009.
That seems appropriate, if nothing else to show that getting one sack with very limited playing time might be considered respectable, given how few sacks the others managed while playing far more.
Plus, Reed wasn't playing a Leo position last year...
…he was a DE, right? Doesn’t that make he and Lawrence somewhat comparable?
Ugh, SBNation ate my reply
Clemons has produced a solid season as an NFL starter. In 2009, Nick Reed completely disappeared in the regular season (I do realize he didn’t play much).
I’m not averse to giving Reed snaps and a shot at starting, but choosing him over Chris Clemons is just silly.
To quote JM from the Nick Reed retrospect post: “In man form, Nick Reed is an exceptionally skilled pass rusher that lacks pro talent. … The point is, Reed is not built like a football player. He is small, small of frame, light, modestly tall, slow and not the least bit explosive.”
"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM
Bottom line for me is performance on the field.
If you put a guy out there, and despite his apparent limitations, succeeds, you gotta give him a shot to play.
I don’t know how that shows up in camp—you would think it would, and if so, given the ‘competition’ mantra, we can expect the best player to start. If that is Clemens, I am fine with that (not that anyone cares what I am fine with or not).
Got two words for ya:
Garbage. Time.
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
Actually, I'm pretty sure that was just Nick Reed coming on here and voting once
That’s just how much each one of Nick Reed’s votes counts for
by B.B.Finnegan on Jul 8, 2010 9:21 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Foley.
The wild card. We’ve seen the upsides of Clemons and Reed and it’s not inspiring. This year’s Seahawks seem to have a particularly high number of “I have no idea what we have here” types, and I’m dreaming big for all of them. That’s what the offseason is for.
by Suburban Shocker on Jul 7, 2010 1:30 PM PDT reply actions
I think highly of Dexter Davis.
Elite athleticism for an end or a big linebacker, and even though he’s small for an end, they all are. Davis also had the college production, and seems to have decent moves. His down year as a Senior seems to be at least partly due to increased attention from the blocking schemes, and PC obviously knows if that is true or not. I think of all four of them, he has the best chance of sticking long term, even if this season it takes him a little while to get his turn.
I like what I've read about Davis.
But, I’ve never seen him play. It’s hard to vote for someone I’ve never seen play (see: Rickey Foley, too).
Red Bryant: surprise us!
I watched Foley in the CFL.
Does that count? There’s a lot of pass-rushin’ goin’ on.
Given our choices, sometimes picking the guy we haven't seen is the best alternative.
I honestly don’t think this will be his year, but I like his chances of being good over at least Foley, probably would bet on him over Reed, and Clemons might be the starter this year but long term I’d expect Clemons to be gone.
But I love Reed, and this may just be the position for him to show all the doubters that as John Madden might say, football players who are good at football, they play football.
My vote is for Nick Reed
The last time I saw a motor on a guy like him, was a guy by the name of Michael McCrary. Granted, Reed certainly isn’t the height or the bulk, but you can’t coach heart, and he’s got a truck load.
We clearly don't have a clear cut Leo
We are trying to do what we can with what we have and what we can get. My questions is how much of this 4-3 that lines up like a 3-4 will demand 3-4 skills and size from our other DL. If we had a true 3-4 DL then I wouldn’t worry as much about the questions at Leo. My worry is that we aren’t built up front at all to be a 3-4 which will make it impossible to succeed at Leo no matter who we throw in.
I believe that's why they're trying Red at DE
Three big guys up front to free up the pass rushers (specifically the Leo spot but sometimes Curry on the other side).
Holey Foley
Read his “On the Fringe” piece. He said he thinks wasn’t able to show his best at Baltimore because his CFL team had a fairly simple blitz package and he didn’t have sufficient time to adjust and to digest the NFL level schemes (i think it was going from 4-5 blitz to 30 ish or something like that).
Plus he looks good on the highlight reel: Fast, strong, relentless (see chasing players clear across the field) – but again i suppose this is why they call them highlights.
I think, at his age, and having gone so close before, he will be driven to succeed unlike any of the others. Plus he will have had plenty of time to get used to the coaching/pace/playbook/his fellow linemen etc.
Seems to me he is primed to burst right out of the blocks and for pre-season at the very least, he will be a beast.
Conclusion: I vote Maple Moley aka Ricky Showme aka Ickey Thumpy
But i’m new at this. Be nice to hear what some of the more experienced posters think…
As if to re-enforce the "Most Desperate to Make It" moniker, the below has just been posted on the Seahawks blog:
The key for Foley will be to duplicate what Reed was able to do last year – open eyes every time he gets an opportunity. Foley, who led the CFL with 12 sacks for the B.C. Lions last season, is a willing student. Several times, he has been spotted in the hallway getting extra tutoring from an assistant coach after meetings. He’s also one of the first players on the field for each practice, and one of the last to leave.
http://blog.seahawks.com/2010/07/07/a-little-qa-15/#more-5286
A nice, fat, crunchy pre-season sack and a couple of pursuit & pancake pre-season protein shakes and he might be just the right ingredient to steak his claim in the mix.
ahem…
But can he make the line-up? That is where i’m still bowing to other’s experience in these matters…
So Nick Reed is high motor and all
And fun to watch, and came up with some turnovers in the regular season, but I would bet money that 90% of his tackles came in garbage time or special teams. Considering how often we punted, that’s a lot of tackling opportunities.
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
If you count the time I spent agonizing over losses.
Yeah. Definitely.
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
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