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A Brief Encapsulation of the Kentwan Balmer Trade from Both Teams' Perspectives

Seahawks Perspective: Seattle needed depth behind Brandon Mebane. It wanted to improve its depth behind Red Bryant. Kentwan Balmer is a good height-weight-speed talent that did enough as a senior to warrant early round consideration. Guys like Balmer have intrinsic value. His raw physical ability is rare whatever his performance.

Trading for Balmer represents a meaningful shift in the Seahawks talent evaluation. Tim Ruskell emphasized good football players. Max Unger is good at football. Max Unger has relatively ordinary physical ability. No matter how he progresses as a player, he will never be standout strong, standout fast or standout large.

Seattle is attempting to dramatically improve its foundation of talent. Balmer is a high-risk, high-variance talent that has the potential to be a starter or even a star. And the chance to bust out of the league.

49ers Perspective: San Francisco used a late first round pick to acquire Balmer. There is a meaningful difference between an early first round pick and a late first round pick. To put it into perspective, PFR's Approximate Value estimates the 28th pick to be worth 10 fewer "points" than a 13th overall pick and 10 more "points" than a 61st-65th overall pick. This is important to establish, because people tend to put rounds into buckets. Rounds are an organizing construct. They do not determine the projected value of a player. San Francisco didn't bust the bank. It turned a pick with the Approximate Value of ~Leroy Hill into a pick with the Approximate Value of ~Will Herring.

Balmer forced the 49ers hand. Whatever the reason, he was not interested in playing for San Francisco and had been absent without leave from 49ers training camp. We may never know how this situation became so toxic so quick, but Balmer's absence hurt the 49ers' leverage. San Francisco could have chosen to be stubborn and eventually attempt to recoup part of his salary or it could accept the sunk cost and hopefully turn Balmer into something of value.

This is not entirely different from Seattle trading Darryl Tapp. Seattle was able to get more for a better, more accomplished player, but it still presumably traded down because Tapp did not fit Carroll's preferred scheme. Balmer may or may not be a proper scheme fit for San Francisco, but something about him didn't fit and Balmer's continued absence forced a move.

Without knowing the particulars of why Balmer was absent or whether San Francisco could realistically cater to his needs, it's impossible to say whether the 49ers traded low because of irreconcilable differences or because of something that is conceivably fixable. What we do know is that something forced the 49ers to accept a loss. This is a loss. San Francisco traded a first round pick plus one season for a sixth round pick.

Global Perspective: Each team had its reasons, and neither team is assured to win or lose this trade, but the Seahawks invested in premium talent at a bargain price, from a division rival no less, and the 49ers accepted a loss on what they deemed an unsalvageable bust. The 49ers only win if Balmer also busts for Seattle, and their return is a sixth round pick. Pretty minor. Seattle wins if Balmer outperforms a sixth round pick, which is by no means a sure thing. Pretty low standard, though. San Francisco could have avoided this problem by trading out of the division.

San Francisco did what they could with a bad hand, and it was a bad hand, but trading talent to a division rival might compound their loss. By trading out of the division, San Francisco would have assured that they would win any trade in which the return was more valuable to them than Balmer. Given that Balmer had no value, any pick would be a win. By trading within the division, San Francisco loses any trade in which the Seahawks, a rival, derive more value from Balmer than the 49ers do the return: a sixth round selection. That seems like a bad gamble. Balmer not only contributes to a team attempting to win the same division, but Balmer contributes to a team that will face San Francisco twice each season. His play directly and indirectly impacts the 49ers chances to win the NFC West. That is why inter-divisional trades are so controversial.

Apart from their chosen trading partner, though, the original selection of Balmer is the critical mistake and the trade simply the unsavory ending. Maybe. There is one loose end. If Balmer does thrive in Seattle, what about San Francisco prevented him from thriving there? And is that idea, player, coach or executive worth protecting? Has San Francisco rid themselves of the problem for the greater good? Or has San Francisco removed the canary to keep the coal mine open?

We shall see.

Comment 74 comments  |  2 recs  | 

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Very good post

Great perspective all the way around. Here’s hoping he works out. But I’m not sweating it if he doesn’t.

by ErictheHawksFan on Aug 17, 2010 8:19 PM PDT reply actions  

Very well done, John

Perspective is a boon to good writing.

It is what it is...

by kidder95 on Aug 17, 2010 8:22 PM PDT reply actions  

Teehee canary-analogy

Also if I were a 49ers fan I’d argue the FO pulled the trigger because they feel sure he is a bust and will not do anything for us. Only the future can vindicate that viewpoint though.

by Thomas Beekers on Aug 17, 2010 8:27 PM PDT reply actions  

Agreed

When I read reports saying Balmer was getting ribbed by his former teammates- being called a bust, I wonder what other indignities he was enduring. It’s clear his coach didn’t believe in him. I don’t care what your job pays- harassment and disrespect are not indicative of a healthy work place. I’ve only walked out on one job in my life and it was for this reason. I found a much better job next door and lmao as the old place imploded. Hopefully Balmer can find the same satisfaction.

by JasterBaster on Aug 18, 2010 1:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

Is that a mug shot?

Looks like Donovan McNabb after a few marijuana cigarettes and a 40 oz. of OE.

by Rundstrom on Aug 18, 2010 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Marijuana cigarettes?

Really?

It's Great to be a Florida Gator!

What the french, toast?

by Wayward Llama on Aug 20, 2010 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

Considering Balmer's status I'm not sure if they had any other offers

Let’s assume so for just a second. If that’s the case, is it better they took the 6th and ran or should they have waived him?

Or do you assume they did have other offers?

by Thomas Beekers on Aug 17, 2010 8:39 PM PDT reply actions  

Seattle wouldn't necessarily know what anyone else was offering, if anything.

I would definitely think that they could have gotten something, even a conditional pick, from another team.

by Nate Dogg on Aug 17, 2010 8:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Perhaps a 7th wasn't enough the convince the Niners not to just squat on his rights and try to recoup money?

Tho the difference seems to minor for that. The difference between a 6th and 7th rounder is almost symbolic.

Status as in officially being on the AWOL list, broadcasting to the world he is done with the franchise (and vice versa)

by Thomas Beekers on Aug 17, 2010 8:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

It indicates his status as a unproven player with apparent attitude problems, so that has to depress his value

Hawks also may have been helped by Aaron Schobel still being on the market before this trade went down.

by lemonverbena on Aug 17, 2010 9:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Indeed

The rub seems to lie somewhere between McCloughan’s belief in him and the Niners belief that he wouldn’t hurt them.

by lemonverbena on Aug 17, 2010 9:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

The Balmer trade seems to be the first fruit from the McCloughan hiring

I just wonder if his prior employment ultimately made the difference in the Niners agreeing to such a lopsided trade. I can’t think of another reason that this trade happened….other than Niner incompetence.

by J.L. White on Aug 17, 2010 10:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thats not much of a rub.

If McCloughan’s wrong, they’re out a sixth rounder. If the Niners are wrong, uh oh.

by Nate Dogg on Aug 17, 2010 10:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Which, I think, leads us back to a point you made earlier

Being that we probably weren’t the only suitors for Balmer, they may have felt that he was a completely hopeless bust, to which you responded:
“No FO with any level of competence can be sure a 23 year old is a bust.”

Removing the canary to keep the coal mine open. Something may be very, very wrong in Niner land. Joy!

by ErictheHawksFan on Aug 17, 2010 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

According to John Clayton yesterday on ESPN Seattle radio,

the Cincinnati Bengals were the only other team to make an offer, and they offered a 7th round pick.

Now keeping in mind what John said about putting all draft picks into buckets, the 49ers might believe that Seattle will finish far enough below Cincinnati that the difference in picks could be as many as 60+ spots once you factor in compensatory picks at the end of the 6th round. But I still think the 49ers are taking a risk that’s just not worth taking by trading him within the division.

by Mind of no mind on Aug 17, 2010 9:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't like not listing the source, and I can't find a written source,

but if you want to hear Clayton’s quote, it’s on the podcast. It’s from on Monday 1-2 at the 11 minute mark.

by Mind of no mind on Aug 17, 2010 9:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Bengals, go figure.

My guess is that most NFL teams don’t see Balmer fitting with their scheme. He didn’t work out in Niner’s 3-4 (inside or outside), and he certainly doesn’t fit in a traditional 4-3. That doesn’t suggest automatic bust, but his attitude with leaving the team when he wants to also doesn’t bode well for his character.

Since the Seahawks is one of the few to use a bit of a hybrid 4-3/3-4 packages and lacks quality depth in the defensive line, they gave the best offer: a 6th rounder. Recently, the Niners netted players like Josh Morgan and Anthony Dixon early in the 6th round, so that might be a reason they value the 6th a lot more than a 7th. I’m sure Scot McCloughan was also pushing for this trade.

by aerozeppelin on Aug 17, 2010 9:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wait, he doesn't?

Coming out of college he was seen as a versatile player who could play 3-4 DE or either tackle spot in a 4-3 if he bulked up. Without bulking up, why wouldn’t he fit undertackle in any 4-3?

by Thomas Beekers on Aug 17, 2010 10:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

He was seen as versatile because he was big and athletic and thus, had the *potential* to fit either schemes

But the problem is that he’s still incredibly raw, and so far still hasn’t developed any pass rush moves.

by aerozeppelin on Aug 17, 2010 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Uh, I don't think Balmer is going to play the Leo

He’d be just as useful to any other team running a 4-3 defense….it’s not like all DTs are as big as Ted Washington.

by J.L. White on Aug 17, 2010 10:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

I never said he's going to play Leo

He’ll probably play Red Bryant’s backup for LDE.

by aerozeppelin on Aug 17, 2010 10:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

He was going to be released

No matter what.
We were lucky to get some offers (apparently you and CIN).

What we've got here is a failure to communicate.

"I'm just like you, but 10 times better"

by SportsChicken on Aug 17, 2010 10:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

And we were lucky to get a shot at this low-cost, high-return gamble.

Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...

by Cheddar28 on Aug 17, 2010 10:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Er, potentially high-return*

Not a huge chance, but man it could be a good payoff. The guy is still so young as stated above.

Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...

by Cheddar28 on Aug 17, 2010 10:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

You were going to get a shot regardless

He was not going to be a 9er this year.

What we've got here is a failure to communicate.

"I'm just like you, but 10 times better"

by SportsChicken on Aug 18, 2010 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Love the canary metaphor...

…it suggests ominous ongoings in San Fransisco. Hope that story breaks and it involves coaches, players, execs, and…uh…maybe PETA.

By the way, I love the writing and coverage, John. I’ve dropped all other sources for Seahawk news.

by Mahk77 on Aug 17, 2010 9:12 PM PDT reply actions  

Thanks.

I appreciate the kind words, but I wouldn’t want to take credit away from the other knowledgeable voices covering the Seahawks.

by John Morgan on Aug 17, 2010 9:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

See I don't get this
Balmer contributes

Is he going to be your kick returner?
How is he possibly going to contribute? He’s definitely not going to start.
Plus you’re really over blowing his "talent"level. He’s got good height and weight but he’s not that fast off the snap, his technique is pretty much non-existent, and he can’t really get a push as a pass rusher (probably because of the technique issue).

We have a much more talented player in Ray McDonald (who Balmer couldn’t beat out for the back-up job at LDE) who actually produces on the field when give opportunities.

What we've got here is a failure to communicate.

"I'm just like you, but 10 times better"

by SportsChicken on Aug 17, 2010 10:20 PM PDT reply actions  

Could be more than just football talent...

There was also talk of him building an arena to bring the NBA back to Seattle.

by Kryten on Aug 18, 2010 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

Balmer?

What we've got here is a failure to communicate.

"I'm just like you, but 10 times better"

by SportsChicken on Aug 18, 2010 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Seattle joke.

Ballmer.

Thank you, Walter Jones.
Thank you, Ken Griffey Jr.

by thebyron on Aug 18, 2010 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

No offense chikmagnet (Good MxPx song by the way.)

but I lol’d audibly.

Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...

by Cheddar28 on Aug 17, 2010 11:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

lmao

565 isn’t my chikmagnet # it stands for something.

What we've got here is a failure to communicate.

"I'm just like you, but 10 times better"

by SportsChicken on Aug 18, 2010 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'd be worried about a 26 or 27 year old player that still has poor technique,

but a 23 year old player is still plenty young enough to have time to learn. And we don’t need to him start, although it would be nice if he developed into a starter a few years down the line, but if he can sub in off the bench for Bryant or at DT, then he’s a great value for a 6th round pick at his salary wich is less than $1 million a year for the rest of his contract, as far as I understand, since we don’t have to pay his signing bonus.

And of course you guys have more talented players, but you guys have a much stonger defense than us. Our D-line is probably the biggest weakness on our team so this is a no brainer for us, it’s not like he’s going to make us cut a quality vet in order to keep him on the final roster. The best player he could displace is probably Craig Terrill, and that would be no loss.

by Mind of no mind on Aug 17, 2010 10:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

We're aware of his weaknesses

but the ones you mention, with the partial exception of quickness off the snap, aren’t really about talent, they’re about skill. We certainly realize that he’s not very skilled, and we’re certainly aware that he has more red flags than a soccer match in Sing Sing; but we have a serious hole on the DL, and if he can even develop to the level of “adequate backup,” it will be a huge help for us. I agree, the odds that Balmer ever turns out good enough to justify his draft status are very, very low — but he doesn’t need to do that in order to contribute here; all we really need is for him to take this as a wakeup call and decide he’s actually going to work at being a good football player. What the odds are of that, I don’t know; but given our need, it’s worth the price to find out.

by The Ancient Mariner on Aug 18, 2010 7:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

I understand now

I didn’t know your DL was that bad.

Enjoy.

What we've got here is a failure to communicate.

"I'm just like you, but 10 times better"

by SportsChicken on Aug 18, 2010 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

It'll stop the run (you'll see game one of the season)

But it won’t pressure the QB.

"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM

by Nick Andron on Aug 18, 2010 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

*Error -- null value query*

“Enjoy” and “Seattle DL” are currently mutually-incompatible concepts. Combining them is the football equivalent of dividing by zero.

by The Ancient Mariner on Aug 19, 2010 9:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

OT: LOL @ Danny O'Neil
And for everyone who has criticized his production, it’s worth noting that he (Lawrence Jackson) has more sacks after two seasons than Michael Strahan did.

He really just compared Strahan & LoJack like dat shyunn…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI

Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!

by jubelthebear on Aug 17, 2010 10:45 PM PDT reply actions  

Yeah, ignore the fact that Jackson started 24 games compared to 15 for Strahan in their first two years and only had 1 more sack.

Although it’s true that DE’s need more time than most positions to develop, if he had a chance to breakout like Strahan, I think we’d be seeing more glimpes of this great potential in camps and preseason games.

by Mind of no mind on Aug 17, 2010 11:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

well...

he was resting his sore hamstring. But my main problem is the crap impulsive comparison. Let alone the actual difference in production; let alone that it’s pretty obvious that LoJack is the inferior player regardless of scheme or position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI

Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!

by jubelthebear on Aug 17, 2010 11:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Pretty obvious, my butt.

What’s so obvious about it? Were you watching Strahan like a Hawk (heheh) back in those first couple of years?

It’s not just Strahan. Jackson’s numbers were comparable to a few very (eventually) successful ends, at least, up until last year.

I’m not saying he’s really that good, but the comparison can certainly be made.

by djafrot on Aug 17, 2010 11:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

point taken

all points. The comparison in pure stats is acceptable, even if you look at games started juxtapose with sack totals (what about tackles though yo?).

To say don’t judge a DE’s projected production based on pedestrian stats in their early years is a VERY good point (John’s point).
To say that LoJack can be compared to a possible HOF record breaking all-pro all-decade player of a similiar position is a stretch. It’s also misleading don’t ya think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI

Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!

by jubelthebear on Aug 18, 2010 12:18 AM PDT reply actions  

It's not a matter of comparing their entireties.

It’s a matter of saying that LoJack is not necessarily a bust yet.

by djafrot on Aug 18, 2010 12:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

So is it just the name "Strahan" you're hung up on?

Patrick Kerney more acceptable? I mean at this point in L.J.‘s career he’s got more sacks than Kerney had too. I’m not so sure O’Neil meant to use Strahan’s name as a point of emphasis so much as he was just tossing out names of successful DE’s who struggled early in their careers.

by Catoblepas on Aug 18, 2010 1:02 AM PDT reply actions  

actually

Kerney is a much better example. There’s a guy who started off his first two or three years on a team transitioning through coaching staffs playing a position he wasn’t accustomed to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI

Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!

by jubelthebear on Aug 18, 2010 5:27 AM PDT reply actions  

Balmer is low risk.

It is not like this kid has tested positive for substance abuse, has an injury from which he may not recover or was just indicted for operating a dog fighting business in his back yard. This young man is 23. He has alot of time to develop his skills as a football player and his body in the weight room. All he needs is the right environment, which the Seahawks can provide. If it doesn’t work out we haven’t lost much. How many 6th round picks make the team? It he makes the practice squad it will be a huge win for the Hawks as they have a low investment in someone that can develop into a star with the right coaching.

by Patches Pal on Aug 18, 2010 7:45 AM PDT reply actions  

I disagree

he simply has different risks; he may not be a high risk for winding up crippled or behind bars, but from his track record in SF and in college, he’s clearly a high risk to fail as a chronic underachiever.

As for the alot, I’m not sure about the time part, but I’d think an alot would make a heck of a DT . . .

by The Ancient Mariner on Aug 18, 2010 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

One way that SF can come out as the winner on this trade

Is if SF really thinks Balmer sucks and will be a bust, they could actually benefit from trading him to a division rival. Besides stripping a rival of a 6th round pick, they are saddling a rival with an $800,000 contract (I know, not big), and a roster spot. They could also have infiltrated a rival with a bad locker room presence that will bring other players on the D-Line down. I’m not saying Balmer will do all this, but there is a worst case scenario where the 49ers can do BETTER by trading him within the division.

I hope though that this trade turns out great and we can stuff it in the Niners face twice a year.

by Surf Hawk on Aug 18, 2010 9:50 AM PDT reply actions  

People seem to miss this

If you think you’re going to win a trade, it’s actually advantageous to trade within your division. Like raising your bet in poker: if you think you have a better hand, up the stakes.

by busplunger on Aug 18, 2010 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Kind of like in Fantasy Football

Drafting Tom Brady and Randy Moss. It could either be doubly good or doubly sucky.

by Surf Hawk on Aug 18, 2010 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm trending toward his personality being the wrong fit for Singletary's culture.

Personally, I don’t perform better with negative reinforcement. Tell me I suck over and over again, and you will torch any loyalty I might have had. Why should I perform for you, so you can get away with more abuse? Peak performance is accomplished by effective exertion and efficient recovery. Teardown and buildup. Most leaders are better at one than the other, and a lot of coaches who were gifted players figure that teardown is all they need to do, as they don’t get that the rest of the world doesn’t have the same Hall of Fame mental makeup as them. The Big Show never even made it in the pros,and rode the bench as a college player. And lots of drill instructors get fragged by their own men.

For whatever reasons, high draft status plus steep and brutal learning curve in the pros included, he felt like he had to import college teammates for positive reinforcement. Here’s to Uncle Pete building him up after Dill Sergeant Singletary tore him down. Come to think of it, he and LoJack have had parallel careers so far – put into a position they haven’t played before, with multiple changes in coaches. And too early to tell in the career of a Dlineman if they’re really busts.

Love the canary image. Wasn’t SF the preseason favorite to win the division every year we won it?

by bleedshawkblue on Aug 18, 2010 10:15 AM PDT reply actions  

My recollection

is we were preseason Super Bowl dark horses in 2004, everyone except SF were division favorites in 2005, and 2006 was the start of premature expectations for Arizona, which didn’t go so far as to supplant us as consensus division favorites/contenders. After 2007 I think SF started to become a bit more recognized as division contenders, but really not thought of as favorites until this year.

by jacobstevens on Aug 18, 2010 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

Some guys don't react to the hardass approach

Based on what he’s done, my gut is 29th in the 1st Round might have been SF reaching for a need rather than Balmer being picked where he deserved, then underperforming.

Some guys react positively to the hardass, one-trick pony approach Singletary brings, but some guys don’t. Balmer seems like a very bright young man in the wrong defensive scheme for his skills, with an asshole riding him nonstop (and occasionally in the press).

To me the bottom line is: 6-5, 315 and Carroll, Schneider and the guy who drafted him for SF all believe in him enough to bring him here, which is good enough for me.

If he’s a competent backup for years, that’s a big win (cost us a sixth). If he busts, it’s not a big loss (cost us a sixth). If he turns into what he may have the potential to turn into, not only a big win (with a sixth pick), a walkoff grand slam (and from a team within the division, no less).

What’s not to like?

GO HAWKS!!!

by BigUglyFatDude on Aug 18, 2010 11:59 AM PDT reply actions  

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