Player Sketches from Seahawks-Titans: Chris Clemons
by John Morgan on Aug 21, 2010 2:46 PM PDT
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Too much can be made of Chris Clemons performance against the Titans. Too much can be read into and too much can be extrapolated from what I thought was a mostly underwhelming performance.
The play people remember above all is Clemons inside move on Michael Roos and sack of Chris Simms. Simms is a certifiable sack machine, but this wasn't a cheapy. Clemons owned Roos. What is harder to determine is why did Roos look so freakin' bad? And he did. On a later play, Red Bryant used an arm over to attack him on the inside and pressure Simms out of the pocket. Neither Clemons' nor Bryant's moves were special by any stretch, but both lost Roos, allowed quick separation and a free run to the quarterback.
Players are not static. Roos made the Pro Bowl in 2008 and was an alternate in 2009. He's been good. Just 27, you wouldn't expect him to decline. Since we're discussing the preseason, I wouldn't suggest this is as a sure sign of decline. But when Clemons started out and moved in, Roos planted as if to mirror, planted his right foot to set and block Clemons on the inside, and then lost his balance and doubled over left. Left guard Leroy Harris was busy doubling Brandon Mebane and the space between Roos and Harris was easy enough for Clemons to sprint through. And that was the play. Clemons didn't bull Roos back or beat him to the edge or chop his arms and explode to the inside. He started somewhat wide, moved in and Roos just didn't follow. Roos didn't even chase him. He just stood where he was beaten as Clemons popped his quarterback.
Who knows why a player can look so good for so long and then in one instant or for one game be spanked by pedestrian moves from unproven pass rushers, but that is how I would summarize the game for Roos. I would guess, and I would guess a large part of why football is so unpredictable, is that players are not "injured" or "not injured" but in some constant state of flux between those two extremes. Not that I think Roos is injured, but maybe he's just no in "game shape" or whatever.
...
After a lot of off season talk about stand up ends, Seattle's ends mostly played out of the three point. Clemons was just a regular old end, except that instead of playing right or left, he shifted sides to correspond with the offensive weak side. The Titans regularly put a tight end in motion to counter Clemons. That is part of the problem with dedicating a player to the weak side: An offense can shift its strong side and weak side much more readily than a defense can respond. Clemons isn't going to sprint to the other side of the line every time a tight end is shifted to his side. If he ever warrants the attention, I do not think Clemons will fight off a tackle and a tight end.
The major difference I see between Clemons and Darryl Tapp as pass rushers is that when a play breaks down, Clemons has much better range to fight back into the action. He is lighter and quicker and that allowed him to pressure Simms and chase Vince Young. Young had little trouble running away from Clemons, but Young is the quickest starting quarterback in the NFL. Clemons should fare better against Sam Bradford. In fact, Bradford is the ideal mix of panicky and pocket blind for Clemons to feast on. Maybe Alex Smith, too.
I can't help but give this performance a big fat "I". I didn't see Clemons get rag-dolled too terribly bad as a run stuffer. That's good. The sack was good, even though I can't quite tell how he schooled Roos so completely. Clemons did not generate a lot of quick pressure, but he did contribute on broken plays. For the most part, the Seahawks defense did not look good so much as Chris Simms looked very bad.
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I gotta say, this particular article reads like you're being negative by default.
Certainly Roos could be suddenly bad. But could it also be that Clemons did something right, maybe setting him up with different moves? From the sack it sure looked like Roos was backpedaling WAY too fast, perhaps Clemons’ quickness was panicking him. Perhaps the combination of Clemons’ speed and Bryant’s power had Roos confused. Perhaps it was the defensive scheme.
It just seems weird to say it’s more likely that Roos sucked that day than to say that maybe the defensive players have improved or been more successful in a new scheme.
And to say the Seahawks’ defense didn’t look as good as Simms looks bad, OK. But the Titans were playing mostly starters on their OL, and the Hawks’ defense was getting pressure anyhow. Is that Simms’ fault? Perhaps they could be compensating for their sucky quarterback. Or maybe Simms was unable to make the right read, but it sure didn’t seem to me like he had any time to throw.
AND, a question. If Clemons warrants the attention of a tight end, does that not help the defense by allowing them to focus on the other receivers? I would have thought this was a good thing.
Sorry if I myself sound negative, it’s just that this article seems a little fuzzy. From the best, I expect the best!
At least the last line read
“for the most part”. I do, however, think that this article paints a picture of Simms beating himself, when there’s a lot of credit you could give to the Seahawks’ starters. Trufant being invisible the whole time, Vickerson’s push and shedding, etc.
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
Simms beat himself.
If otherwise was true, I would write otherwise. I am not going to praise the Seahawks defense for teeing off on one of the worst quarterbacks in football. Anyone that saw Simms last season knows that even his mediocre Tampa days are far behind him.
Kelly Jennings subbed in for Trufant after the first quarter. That is why Trufant was “invisible.”
Vickerson had a nice game.
If Clemons did something right, I would have written about that
He was not particularly fast off the snap. He was not particularly quick out of his stance. He didn’t do anything special as far as pass rush moves.
Clemons did not panic Roos.
The scheme—I could speculate, but I doubt it. Seattle is not doing anything radical. In fact, Seattle’s scheme was vanilla almost too the max. It was something short of a Pro Bowl defense. Left tackles regularly switch off between blocking a 3-4 end and a rush linebacker when facing a 3-4, and that is equivalent to blocking Bryant and Clemons. I do not think anyone was confused.
Seattle generated some pressure through Simms breaking the pocket. Through some good performances, Bryant and Terrill both forced Simms out of the pocket. And Seattle generated pressure through a lot of really, really crappy play by Simms. He was nervous. He had happy feet. He didn’t seem to have any clue who to pass to. He was inaccurate even underneath. And he lived in bad down and distance.
Simms had 15 pass attempts, including two sacks.
Three were out of second and long. 4 yd completion (quarterback hit), Incomplete, 2 yard completion.
Five were out of third and long. Sack -13, 3 yd completion, Incomplete (quarterback hit), Incomplete, Sack -13
His non-pressure downs were: Incomplete, incomplete, 2 yards, Incomplete (quarterback hit), 4 yards, 3 yards, 6 yards and the first.
Basically, he sucked and in passing downs, he sucked harder.
And I wouldn’t credit Seattle’s front seven for almost any part of Simms sucking.
Clemons may be chipped by a tight end. I do not think a team will double Clemons.
My questions was going to be just how vanilla you thought the scheme was.
Thanks for preemptively attacking it. You’re obviously a 1941 Soviet.
Huh.
Well, I guess if you’re capable of judging that Clemons’ moves were neither particularly quick nor technically proficient than that would make sense. I just don’t know enough about defensive line play to see it.
One thing I’ve noticed reading your writing, you do frequently go against the grain when it comes to quarterbacks and sacks. You tend to blame the quarterback much more often than the masses, or even many other analysts, who usually blame the line. I’d agree with this in many cases, especially having watched Hass over the last couple of years – whether he’s got time or not he’s panicky and quick to check down. Why do you figure so many people ignore the factor of pocket presence? Is it simply hard to judge for most people while watching the game?
Maybe, yes.
It’s a negative in that Clemons, technically, did his job and got a sack. For us to interpret that as an incomplete, I think, is a little bit of a mistake and unfair to Clemons. I can understand when we’re talking about Simms, but for us to say that Roos suddenly is lousy is not very logical in my mind. That he got beat by both Clemons and Bryant does, however, make it more sensible.
His job is not to get one sack
His job is to generate pressure. He sacked Simms after Roos screwed up. Somehow that has been conflated to Clemons had a good game. I did not see Clemons have a good game.
I guess I just haven't noticed the "Clemons had a good game" talk.
(other than the post-game guys on TV).
And I didn’t pay particular attention to Clemons during the game. You’re right, all I remember is the one sack (in only a quarter + worth of action, though) and a pressure on an already flushed Young (who did end up throwing an INT on the play).
But, uh, cheers for Vickerson?
I think John's point is valid.
I don’t know if you’re a basketball fan, but imagine a scenario where a defender crowds Jason Kidd five feet beyond the 3-point line. Kidd would have no trouble getting a step on his man. Does that mean Kidd still has an elite first step? Not really. It just means that his man played flawed defense. However, if Jason Kidd caught ball in the low post, and used his 6’4" 210 pound frame to bully his man under the basket and get a layup, it becomes more about what Kidd did than any mistake his defender may have made on the play.
To bring it back to football, it’s usually easy to tell when a tackle is bested by their opponents skill/physical talent and when they merely beat themselves.
I'm not sure I get your analogy.
That guy playing defense would have made a bad CHOICE to try and defend Kidd past the 3point line. Roos didn’t make a choice to miss the block, or at least, I hope not. He got beat. We can say it’s because he’s injured, or because he’s declined, but we have no evidence of the former and the latter is just a guess. We could just as easily say Clemons got better.
I’m not sure how to account for the vanilla defense, though. One would think that would make Clemons easier to block, in that Roos didn’t have to anticipate a stunt or a blitz, but Roos simply has one job to do and doesn’t do it. Strange.
I guess the fact that Bryant beat him as well means he’s just declined. But let’s hope it’s our amazing pass rush ability!
Red is reborn!
Becoming more than a man, more than Roos ever was…!
When a guy gets caught flat footed it doesn't necessarily mean they got beat by someone with great burst.
Angles matter. Effort matters. That’s why it’s an incomplete grade.
The same goes for Mike Williams grade as a WR (he impressed as a blocker). What did that 51 yard TD reception really tell us?
Williams' 51 yard TD reception told me
That he moves pretty well for a man his size. It also told me that he could present serious match-up problems for the smaller, less physical DB’s of the league.
Except the major contributor to that huge TD pass
was the CB completely blowing his assignment. He whiffed badly on Williams and William made him pay for it. Good for Williams, but realistically it doesn’t tell us a ton about how he’s going to do against good CBs because that simply won’t happen against them.
Now with more lemon bars!
True.
As for BMW, sure. But I don’t remember anyone saying he was suddenly an all-star! It was a very nice move after the catch, even if the DB totally botched his angle. I guess to judge how BMW did we’d have to watch the game film and see if he was getting open. I do think the INT was his fault, even if the coaching staff claims it was the corner’s for being in the wrong spot!
There are a lot of pass rushers in this league who pad their stats..
… based off of things like indecisive QB’s holding the ball too long, or bad blocking. Peterson was like that for us. Man, he sure did look good when we were going against the San Francisco’s and St. Louis’ of the league, but would disappear for whole stretches of time against better QB’s and better o-line’s.
To this point I’ve liked what I’ve seen out of Clemons a lot more than what I got used to seeing with Tapp. It’s not going to take Clemons a lot to best Tapp production-wise, really. All it’s going to take to do that is consistency. If Clemons can do that, we win that trade.
Julian Peterson was the best player on defense from 2006-2007
He had 24.5 sacks, 249 tackles, 13 passes defended, 3 interceptions and 9 forced fumbles in three seasons for Seattle. He was not a great run stopper. That is about the limit of meaningful criticism that can be affixed to him.
I'm well aware of Peterson's numbers, and like I said...
You start breaking down his games by strength of opponent, and it plainly shows that he didn’t account for much against good QB’s and/or good offensive lines. I stand by that, and I can statistically back it up.
Have you accounted for what OTHER defensive players have done?
I’m pretty sure that every player gets most of his stats versus weaker opponents.
Love to see how Peterson compares to other players.
Yes, which is why I stated previously..
that there are a lot of pass rusher whom pad their stats that way.
I speaking mostly about sacks, John
However, when you’re willing to concede that Peterson wasn’t much of a run stopper, it takes away from the tackle numbers you posted. If there is one stat that tends to get overrated, it’s tackles, especially when it’s a LB who’s making these tackles 5 – 10 yards down the field. But I digress…
A lot of Peterson’s pass rushing numbers when he was with us came against inferior opponents where the QB and/or OL is concerned. 2007 is a great example of that. He’s not alone though, because like I said there are several other examples of players like him who did/do the same thing. I simply threw Peterson’s name out as one example.
Compared to names like James Harrison, Joey Porter, and DeMarcus Ware, Peterson does not compare favorably at all in this aspect because those guys get after whoever, pretty much regardless. However, names like Okeafor, Orakpo, or Trent Cole he compares more favorably too.
I do not want to drive this into the ground but I think you are enforcing an arbitrary standard.
A quick look at DeMarcus Ware’s game log from 2009 shows ten sacks against mediocre or worse talents and one sack against an above average left tackle: David Diehl. And one could argue that Manning ran himself into that sack.
Unless we have some comprehensive accounting for level of competition, I see no reason to specifically negate Peterson’s sacks. Bad left tackles and sack prone quarterbacks improve the sack totals of all pass rushers. It is one reason “sack” is a pretty stupid stat.
Seems to me most of this discussion supports what (to me) Catoblepas was getting at
which is that really good pass rushers get maybe a lion’s share of their production from mopping up on inferior opposition. He tried to establish a tier that transcends that, and that doesn’t hold up, and I wouldn’t have expected it to.
Maybe he’s trying to make another point, but what I got out of it is this highlighted Clemons sack isn’t distinct from a lot of established, good pass rushers’ production. Which is a good and valid point.
In macro. It’s not relevant here. Incomplete, as you said, and we oughtn’t read too deeply into one play. If Clemons is good, he’ll capitalize on this stuff more often. Frankly I’m a lot more concerned now, than I have been, about Clemons and the pass rush. My last bit of hope is that the 3-point stance and vanilla are because the play calling and pressure packages really will be very Blitzburgh like, and it’s being saved for Week 1. But I agree with you in the article above, it was not impressive, it raises questions, but it’s far from complete.
by jacobstevens on Aug 23, 2010 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions
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