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A Completely Irrational Response to the Josh Wilson Trade

I'm one of those guys that gets really calm when they are really angry. Real calm. Like a serial killer.

Star-divide

And what I am right now is so calm I could stop breathing. My heart could stop beating and my wife would wake up and find my lifeless corpse frozen in rigamortis staring at this barely started post.

Right here. I think it would stop right here, because the calm is ebbing and I'm about to freak the fuck out.

Earlier today I talked a little about the idiots that populate broadcast booths. Idiot used to mean something, you know. It wasn't just a term used for the guy that made a double lane change without signaling or the poor drive-through worker that had the GODDAMN nerve to fuck up your order. It used to mean someone that fell pretty far down one side of the bell curve when it came to intelligence. Something we can not say today without 50,000 thousand words of technical jargon and obfuscation.

Many of the people in the booths are idiots, dolts, people with vaunted sports careers and the speaking ability of a terrier with a Vanilla Ice tape stuck in its mouth.

But we'd like to, if for no other reason but our own sanity, believe that those people that rise to the ranks of General Manager of a multimillion dollar business are not idiots, are not even common, but are the very best of the very best football minds. Something like a genius or a master, kind of both, with talent and experience and drive and the ability to negotiate a complex and esoteric market like few on Earth.

I think that assumption is utter bullshit.

Isn't that what we've learned over the past two decades? That the appointed Seahawks beat reporter is not necessarily the best writer or reporter or analyst. That the appointed announcer, the "Joe Buck", is not the best spoken, most knowledgeable, most evocative. That the manager is some bland sycophant that glad-handed the right people. That even Chan Gailey can find another job.

Why do we assume that those people in charge of our passion, our hopes, our lives, frankly, or at least a big part of the better part of our lives, are not lucky-ass glad-handing idiots that bumbled into their jobs through connections like any Gailey or Buck or ...

Right now, after years of Bill Bavasi, after years of ferreting out the good from Tim Ruskell just to keep my sanity, after years of figuring out the NFL, and figuring out every draft board is 90% the same, and free agency is just about who pays the most, and that roster construction is subject to the arbitrary whims of scheme, and players are cut because of one missed field goal or one missed block or a run of bad practices; figuring out that if you draft Peyton Manning people will call you genius, and if you sign Drew Brees, people will call you a genius, and if you can not differentiate a regression towards the mean from a hole in your ass, people will call you a genius, I am approaching the point where I think I may be the biggest idiot, because I have entrusted fools with my happiness.

And I am not happy.

Josh Wilson is short. He's short. He's short. He's short.

Josh Wilson is so fucking short I can't understand how he walks or runs or attends state fairs without a good deal of embarrassment when tries to ride the rides.

Josh Wilson is so fucking short, it's a wonder he was drafted at all, because no corner within an inch of Wilson's height has ever succeeded in the NFL.

EVER.

At anything.

And Wilson clearly sucked. You know how I know, because every fucking training camp some Brilliant Football Mind, a Mora, if you will, took one look at Wilson, his height and awarded the starting corner spot to Kelly Jennings, and Jennings is so bad his mother once lobbed him a pass and Jennings caused starvation in Africa attempting to catch it. And every season, after Jennings is gifted the spot through practice, Wilson overtakes him. Sometimes it happens through the preseason. Sometimes it takes into the season.

And Wilson must suck a whole lot, because he sure looks awesome. I mean, I am not a Brilliant Football Mind, but I know what a nickel blitz looks like. I know what ball skills are. I know what it looks like when a player jumps a route and takes it to the house. I know what it looks like when a corner breaks up a pass and tips it to the safety and the safety streaks for a touchdown.

And I know what a fifth round pick looks like. It looks like scratch-it ticket with seven boxes unveiled to read "Shit", one that reads "Will Herring" and another that reads "Scott Fujita."

So he must suck like Stephen Hawking couldn't conceive, because Seattle just traded him for a flotilla made of fish dongs and the title of first mate.

No really, I just want to know, I jus--I just need to know that somewhere, someone has a brilliant plan in place, and I'm not just scribbling words about the world's greatest athletes and the empty suits lucky enough to buy and sell them like trading cards.

GOD FUCKING DAMN IT.

Well, to the brain damage factory for some forgetting potion. I know football doesn't mean shit in the real world, but my life is small, petty and mean, and I live this tiny span, this sixty years of cognizant life if I'm lucky, pouring my time and energy and money into believing in the Seahawks. And right now, I see a logo, a decal, an identifying set of colors, that I suffer for the sake of someone else's incompetence.

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I know you guys are upset about it right now, but we are going nuts in Baltimore right now. We got a local guy who played at our state school and a player we always loved. Not sure how this deal was made, but Ozzie is the guy who seems to do it each and every time.

by Mr MaLoR on Aug 31, 2010 7:32 PM PDT reply actions  

Eat Balls

And please use a title when you’re over here

by biju on Aug 31, 2010 7:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Eat Balls?

Why? I am not talking smack or anything.

by Mr MaLoR on Aug 31, 2010 7:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Exactly.

I “LOLed” at the that. But that is what it’s like.

by PhoneHomeET29 on Aug 31, 2010 7:44 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

But the car accident and honor roll are not connected

I say it’s like he’s watching our child get hit by a car, and as we’re grieving in the street he’s celebrating the fact that a sweet, fresh set of organs is now available to save his child’s life and/or give him superpowers.

Perfectly understandable, right? Anyhoo, I like having civil visitors from other teams. Enjoy your Wilson, Mr MaLoR.

by Jason_D on Aug 31, 2010 9:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

I just hope

he helps you beat the filthy ass Steelers.

It's Great to be a Florida Gator!

What the french, toast?

by Wayward Llama on Aug 31, 2010 7:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

He will.

He’ll pick off Big Ben Rapistburger like he was picking off an elbow scab. Dude’s a beast. We’re fucking furious.

by ErictheHawksFan on Aug 31, 2010 7:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Way to rub it in.

Stay classy. John, I’m 100% with you, but the shortness at the fair thing hurt. I’m 5’8…..and crying.

by PhoneHomeET29 on Aug 31, 2010 7:36 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

I am not rubbing it in at all.

I came here to see what you guys thought. Not trying to rub anything in.

by Mr MaLoR on Aug 31, 2010 7:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

We love Josh Wilson because he's awesome. He's talented, he's young, and he's improving.

He was an interesting second round pick who made good on his draft position with his play and we just turned that into something worse, so yeah, I’m pissed.

by abender20 on Aug 31, 2010 7:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

And he's a good dude.

Great attitude, work ethic.

It's Great to be a Florida Gator!

What the french, toast?

by Wayward Llama on Aug 31, 2010 7:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Our #1 CB, Dominique Foxworth, played alongside Wilson at UMD. Should be cool to see them reunite.

by Mr MaLoR on Aug 31, 2010 7:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sorry

Not used to having to use it all the time. Some other blogs ban you for using it (Cleveland blog). I usually just type in this part, it is a habit.

by Mr MaLoR on Aug 31, 2010 7:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh ok

Yea, go on the Cleveland blog and just try writing a comment using only the subject line. Probably get warned right away.

by Mr MaLoR on Aug 31, 2010 7:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

The Browns blog is an abortion

When we debated with them on Seneca Wallace they thought they were getting the next Jeff Garcia.

Toronto FC - Where road games are forfeited and we STILL have no idea how to play from behind.

by SSreporters on Aug 31, 2010 8:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

I love Wilson because he is a Terp

And I am a current student at Maryland and lifelong Terp lover. Add that to him being on the Ravens and you should be able to tell just how excited I am. Good luck with everything.

by Mr MaLoR on Aug 31, 2010 7:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

He was a fan favorite.

I’m glad that he will be playing for you guys and I wish him the best of luck. But posting about Ozzie being awesome isn’t cool because we feel like we got ripped off. We had leverage and didn’t do anything with it, so it’s disappointing.

by PhoneHomeET29 on Aug 31, 2010 7:42 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

He's not trolling.

You guys need to chill. No need to seem like a bunch of pricks.

It's Great to be a Florida Gator!

What the french, toast?

by Wayward Llama on Aug 31, 2010 7:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks

I’m going to read this over and over while staring at Goya’s painting of Saturn biting man’s head off. Also, cough syrup.

by Moresoftness on Aug 31, 2010 7:34 PM PDT via mobile reply actions  

Amen, brother.

"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM

by Nick Andron on Aug 31, 2010 7:35 PM PDT via mobile reply actions  

This quote is unbelievable.
"Josh was a great player for us and we love him," coach Pete Carroll said. "John (Schneider) said when he got here he wanted to create a roster that other teams wanted to come after, and this is an illustration of that. Because of a good draft this year and other players that have been here, we’ve got some good pieces in place that will seize this opportunity. We’re really excited to see how Kelly (Jennings), Walter (Thurmond) and Roy (Lewis) rise up and make the most of this chance."

Mission accomplished. We’re definitely on every GM’s radar now.

by Culter on Aug 31, 2010 7:35 PM PDT reply actions  

I haven't read "Win Forever" yet,

but I know Carroll built his philosophy based on a book he read by John Wooden. Maybe Carroll believes in another college BB legend Bob Knight who once said;

I think that if rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy it.

by Mind of no mind on Aug 31, 2010 7:59 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

That quote is fucking gold.

"Oh, the usual. I bowl. Drive around. The occasional acid flashback."

by the other side on Aug 31, 2010 8:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Unfortuantely,

That was used prior to Bobby Knight by the Spokane Sheriff in regards to future victims of the South Hill Rapist which was in considerably worst taste than when Bobby Knight said it

Stats are not a euphemism for tits

by Trenchtown on Sep 1, 2010 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

This is something that happens after you win the goddamn Super Bowl.

Not after a 2 win season and the third HC in 3 years.

/dick joke

by Bloof on Aug 31, 2010 8:05 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

On every GM's radar

As the rube at the table. Deal me in. Give me 55 ham sandwiches, Schneider’s number, and an expansion franchise and I’ll give you your new Portland Seahawks.

Portland transplant to Boston.

by cmcdougall on Aug 31, 2010 8:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

If John Schneider played chess

…he would be the kind of douche that drops a queen right in front of a row of enemy pawns, just to ‘psych the other guy out.’

/dick joke

by Bloof on Aug 31, 2010 7:48 PM PDT reply actions  

Did John Schneider really say this:

"It was one of those deals that comes along," Schneider said. "We get calls on players and we don’t do everything. But this was one of those deals we felt like we couldn’t pass up."

WTF????

by Flahawker on Aug 31, 2010 7:50 PM PDT reply actions  

Are you kidding me?

A quote like that just smells of pure incompetence. Did he really say that?

by m_b on Aug 31, 2010 7:54 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Good lord...IT'S A 5TH ROUND PICK!!!

Couldn’t pass it up!?!??! Did Schneider think that Peyton Manning changed his name to 5th round pick? And played for Baltimore?

by MFAN on Aug 31, 2010 7:57 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Doesn't surprise me

Afterall this is the same guy that gave up a 3rd pick for Whitehurst when we could have gotten him for a 4th or 5th pick.

by cthunder on Sep 1, 2010 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Carroll on why they traded Wilson instead of Jennings:
“They were splitting time,” said Carroll. “Both guys could play for us. Kelly has done a wonderful job for us. He’s really a good technique player and we’re pleased as heck to have him. We were able to do this because of those other guys. That’s really what made it possible.”

by Culter on Aug 31, 2010 7:52 PM PDT reply actions  

GAAAAAA!!!

Why should it be possible when it isn’t even advisable?

/jams pen into eye socket

/dick joke

by Bloof on Aug 31, 2010 7:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

This makes me positive they don't give any weight to tape

Only to camp performance.

Jennings is utterly awful, always has been. It’s unmistakable.

"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM

by Nick Andron on Sep 1, 2010 7:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

That maybe the case

But you don’t let Wilson go for anything less than a 3rd.

by cthunder on Sep 1, 2010 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

This.

So the Seahawks Front Office played a zero sum game in which the odds are long to come out "even".

Double rainbow all the way.

/dick joke

by Bloof on Aug 31, 2010 8:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Dear Baltimore ravens fans.....

I hope you beat the ever-lasting piss out of the steelers repeatedly until the ghosts of ben rapistburgers dead hooker victims rise from the grave and claim his soul. Until then, please recognize that you got an absolute steal in this trade and will consider giving your first round pick for kelly jennings and MAYBE julius jones. Sincerely, the disheartened seahawk fanbase.

7 picks for 7 quarterbacks in Draft 2011! EFF IT!

by Seatown_Sport_Head321 on Aug 31, 2010 7:55 PM PDT via mobile reply actions  

Jesus

This really couldn’t get worse. Felix Hernandez needs to be taken off the field and put in a padded room.

"Oh, the usual. I bowl. Drive around. The occasional acid flashback."

by the other side on Aug 31, 2010 7:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Just be glad that teams can't trade draft picks in the MLB,

otherwise: “Hey Jack, I bet teams always call you about King Felix, don’t they? You know what always makes you win a trade? Try a mid-to-late draft pick! And I’m sure any team would give up their 35th round pick for him. It’d be a steal for you.”

by Coach Owens on Aug 31, 2010 8:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh hell yeah.

Theres been at least one player from the 35th round that has made it to the mlb. Pull the damn trigger.

"Oh, the usual. I bowl. Drive around. The occasional acid flashback."

by the other side on Aug 31, 2010 8:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Definitely my favorite Josh Wilson memory.

His performance in that Jets game allowed us to send Mike Holmgren off a winner in his game at Qwest.

by Culter on Aug 31, 2010 8:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

This was the one Seahawks game

That I have actually personally attended. I couldn’t be more disappointed in Q/PM right now.

by dassler10 on Aug 31, 2010 8:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Watch, I bet this is the same pick that the Seahawks trade for Tyler Polumbus

and so Schneider had to get it back, just like with the Balmer/Jackson trades.

by Coach Owens on Aug 31, 2010 8:04 PM PDT reply actions  

I hope that's not the case.

That would suck so much. Might as well of traded Pistol for Polumbus and a fifth with the Lions. Not this sneaky shit.

by PhoneHomeET29 on Aug 31, 2010 8:28 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

This Blows

I hate GMs ….I now have a new person to have as the first person listed on Wayoverpaid.com……..John Schneider

by Ratman44 on Aug 31, 2010 8:15 PM PDT reply actions  

I had really hoped that this whole "Win Forever" "Always Compete" thing

would result in Kelly Jennings being cut or traded and Wilson getting a more prominent role.

by dassler10 on Aug 31, 2010 8:16 PM PDT reply actions  

Couple o' typos missed in your rage:

“people with a vaunted sports careers”

“the empty suites”

As the fan backlash continues from this trade, I wonder if, privately, Schneider will realize how bad the value of this trade was, or if he’ll just do mental gymnastics to rationalize it. And if it’s the latter, I wonder if there’s anyone in the organization who will challenge him on it after the fact. I fear there isn’t.

by sev79 on Aug 31, 2010 8:17 PM PDT reply actions  

Well, behavior like this from the empty suits

Will lead to empty suites…

I'd rather know a little about a lot than a lot about a little

by Sportszilla on Aug 31, 2010 8:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Been away from my computer all day.

I’m shocked and appalled. I really don’t have anything to say other than that.

by zeeehjee on Aug 31, 2010 8:18 PM PDT reply actions  

Are we sure that Clay Bennett has not changed his name

to John Schneider and is on the road to ruining another Seattle sports franchise?!?!?!

by dassler10 on Aug 31, 2010 8:20 PM PDT reply actions  

Feels like it

Feels like they’re tanking intentionally. Either that or they’re criminally incompetent. I can’t accept either. Fuck…

by ErictheHawksFan on Aug 31, 2010 8:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

On a side note

This is one of the best sbnation blogs

IMO

by Foilhat on Aug 31, 2010 8:28 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

THE best.

But you were close. ;)

Red Bryant: surprise us!

by Misfit74 on Aug 31, 2010 9:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Carroll/Schneider direction: "Bide time while working toward a culmination of cheap, primed talent."

Ruskell’s direction: “We are forever one polished player away from a Super Bowl victory.”

by Hawkhammer19 on Aug 31, 2010 8:36 PM PDT reply actions  

Yes, but he doesn't culminate with the other talent

Wilson’s best year’s are right now and we are still a few years away.

by Hawkhammer19 on Aug 31, 2010 8:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Give me a break

He’s not even in his prime yet and when we are “a few years away” he will be.

That is not how football works. Why would you trade young talent when you’re a few years away?

Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.

by SSreporters on Aug 31, 2010 9:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

22 is four less than 26

This was Pistol’s final year being cheap.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s a little disappointing that we didn’t get more but reasoning of trading Wilson for a draft pick seems pretty logical.

by Hawkhammer19 on Aug 31, 2010 10:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Your logic (re: "cheap") may be sound, but Carroll & Schneider's cannot possibly be

If they believe Wilson is going to be a $5-6 million/year CB, then he is worth much more than a 5th round pick.

If they believe Wilson’s trade market value is a 5th round pick, then his free agent market value should be low enough ($2-3 million/year, possibly less) for him to continue being a bargain value.

Look at the trades for Brandon Marshall, Deion Branch, Matt Cassel, and Charlie Whitehurst. They were all given market-level (or better) contracts at the time of trade but that didn’t prevent their original teams from demanding high draft picks.

Adding even a single year of a cheap contract ups the trade value considerably— see Jay Cutler & Richard Seymour.

by Jason_D on Sep 1, 2010 2:52 AM PDT up reply actions   3 recs

Yep.

It's Great to be a Florida Gator!

What the french, toast?

by Wayward Llama on Sep 1, 2010 4:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

Excellent point

And makes me think Schneider may in fact be in over his head.

by B.B.Finnegan on Sep 1, 2010 7:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

We may have gotten MORE if we let Josh go as a FA.

His age and new contract might have gotten us a 3rd rnd comp pick— 4th at the least.

You shouldn’t count Whitehurst or Branch— those teams took advantage of stupidity.

by Kryten on Sep 1, 2010 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

I argee

on Whitehurst but no so much on Branch. At the time giving up a #1 for Branch wasn’t the problem. Having him blow out his knee was.

by cthunder on Sep 1, 2010 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Say what you will about Schneider's negotiating skills...

but the direction he’s taking us seems logical enough to me.

Of course I wish we got more for Josh but it can be difficult to truly understand the value of draft picks at the best of times. I don’t know why we didn’t get at least a third for him but I’m certainly not writing off Schneider because he settled for a fourth.

Honestly, I’m a little surprised everyone is so shocked by this. I’ve been thinking for quite awhile that Josh would be the next to go. We all knew there would be sacrifices in the beginning…

by Hawkhammer19 on Sep 1, 2010 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think it would make sense if he were 31 or so.

Young, inexpensive, effective….those are the players we want to keep around.

Thank you, Walter Jones.
Thank you, Ken Griffey Jr.

by thebyron on Sep 1, 2010 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

But he won't be inexpensive in the offseason

He will have the price of a starting corner.
If they think Thurmond is the eventual starter, why not get value for him now. Letting him walk will get you next to nothing.

by stufr on Sep 1, 2010 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't fully understand compensation picks,

but wouldn’t losing him to free agency next season net us a third or fourth?

Thank you, Walter Jones.
Thank you, Ken Griffey Jr.

by thebyron on Sep 1, 2010 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Only if we have a net loss

Signing other free agents probably would negate it out.
At least thats my basic understanding.

by stufr on Sep 1, 2010 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

After giving it some thought...

Maybe they just don’t like him and were going to let him go after this season. Getting a 3rd comp pick is hard to do— all based on player’s age, new contract, and awards, and some other criteria they won’t disclose.
Perhaps JS was sure he wouldn’t get a 3rd, and might get a 4th at best, and that would be after 4th/before the 5th— so he made this deal to get a pick that was a bit higher…
I can see the logic if they really didn’t want to keep him. But I still would have played my hand a little tougher. Baltimore would have given up a 3rd eventually, I think.

by Kryten on Sep 1, 2010 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

GNN

This isn’t it, because you are still speaking calmly and reasonably…..but be careful.

by J.L. White on Aug 31, 2010 9:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Can't. Stop.

Crying inside.

Not just that Wilson got away. But the sudden realization that the person in charge of personnel – and building the future – is better suited to licking windows.

/dick joke

by Bloof on Aug 31, 2010 8:41 PM PDT reply actions  

I keep trying to talk myself into believing that this is all a dream

… and that I’ll wake up to find out that Kelly Jennings has been traded to the Ravens for a conditional middle round pick…

by farmer cam on Aug 31, 2010 8:43 PM PDT reply actions  

But Jennings is so much better because he was a FIRST ROUND pick

And Wilson was a SECOND ROUND pick! Don’t you see….that I’m masking my pain with humor? Poor attempts at humor, at that.

by J.L. White on Aug 31, 2010 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

I really just want to have a conversation with Q/PM

I literally can’t understand why you’d trade a 2nd round pick who surpassed expectations for a 5th rounder. I know that has been beaten to death, but I literally just can’t understand why anyone would think its a good idea. Are they mentally retarded? I would feel much more comfortable letting John Morgan run the Seahawks.

by SPENCEMAN on Aug 31, 2010 8:45 PM PDT reply actions  

I didn't like the Jackson, Tapp or Sims deals, but I was able to put them in the rear view mirror and move on.

I don’t know if I can with this deal, I actually feel sick. I’ll live and there is nothing this team can do that would make me stop rooting for them, but I just feel like this team is incompetent.

 I don’t even know if this team winning would make me excited because I feel their process is awful, I’m sure once the season starts I’ll be really happy if they win, but right now I’m just not very excited for the season (pains me to even say that).

by MFAN on Aug 31, 2010 8:46 PM PDT reply actions  

Seriously?

No offense, but fuck process. Wins trump just about everything else in my book. If this team ends up in the playoffs this season, we’ll barely remember this trade (though I HATE IT just like everyone else around here at the moment).

"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper

by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on Aug 31, 2010 9:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

But

isn’t winning the PROOF of their competence? If we’re going to blame the FO when the team sucks, we also have to give them credit if the team does well. If the Seahawks actually go out and win the division this season, how can any of us complain or nitpick about shit?

"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper

by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on Aug 31, 2010 9:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not necessarily. As MFAN said, look at the 2007 Mariners.

They had one of the worst front offices in baseball and then lucked into an 87 win season. Winning !=competence.

by Coach Owens on Aug 31, 2010 9:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Considering the overhaul this team has done since last season

Success in 2010 would actually be a good barometer of how competent the FO is. However, this trade will leave me skeptical even if the Seahawks won the Super Bowl and Josh Wilson gets cut from the Ravens.

A little skeptical…..but still skeptical.

by J.L. White on Aug 31, 2010 10:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Winning isn't proof in the NFL

If football were played with 110 guys on each side instead of just eleven, and if there were 160 games per year instead of sixteen, then yeah. That’d be good evidence.

But picking a player in the NFL is like playing a hand of poker. Smart players can lose with bad luck and dumb players can win with good luck. Competence gives an advantage, but it takes a lot of iterations to prove it.

Moreover, we are (justifiably) lambasting Schneider & Carroll’s competence in one particular area. So far, they appear to be good at drafting and finding smart-risk reclamation projects. Carroll looks like a good motivator. The jury is out on scheme and strategy. All of that, combined with a bit of luck, can easily get Seattle into the playoffs despite a rash of shitty trades.

by Jason_D on Sep 1, 2010 3:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

Ugh.

Smart players can lose with bad luck (Matt Hasselbeck)

dumb players can win with good luck (James Harrison)

It's Great to be a Florida Gator!

What the french, toast?

by Wayward Llama on Sep 1, 2010 4:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

I really don't want to luck into the playoffs this season, especially with the way the roster is being constructed now.

I’d be happy, but in the back of my head I’m flipping the fuck out because I can’t possibly believe this is sustainable.

by BrianL on Aug 31, 2010 9:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

don't want to luck into the playoffs?

Wow.. a lot of people here have VERY different standards than I do… For me its: The Seahawks made the playoffs? WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Wow.. a lot of people here have VERY different standards than I do… For me its: The Seahawks made the playoffs? WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!I don’t really nitpick about process or methods… but that’s just me.

"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper

by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on Aug 31, 2010 9:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Why do we assume

that if we make the playoffs, it’s “lucking” into it? Maybe I’m just not picky enough for this fan base, but wins = wins = wins.

"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper

by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on Aug 31, 2010 9:34 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Because in many other divisions we'd finish dead last or close to it?

The NFC West is the worst division in the NFL. It’s the only division in which we’d have any hope of making the playoffs.

by Coach Owens on Aug 31, 2010 9:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Let me point out

As bad as the NFC West is, it’s represented the NFC in the Super Bowl 2 out of the last 5 years. And as bad as the division is, did we get blown out of the playoffs in the 1st game every time we stepped on the field from 2003-2007.

Nope.

"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper

by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on Aug 31, 2010 9:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

The "NFC West is Horrible" meme is incredibly old and outdated

We’ve been hearing it….well, ever since the Seahawks started winning the division. I don’t believe at all that a division can be so awful that it almost invalidates the success one team may have.

And Q/PM are not children; the whole “winning will only reinforce bad habits” idea only works for 6-year-olds. And yes, this trade almost looks like it was done by a 6-year-old. I’ll give you that.

by J.L. White on Aug 31, 2010 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Absolutely

It’s like not getting AIDS because you were too high on crack to bang the campus slut a week before she got her test results.
luck = good
crack habit = bad

by Jason_D on Sep 1, 2010 3:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

Lucking into the playoffs is great and everything, but I'd rather they be bad a few

years and spend it building an actual dynasty-something like the Pats have. Lucking into the playoffs will not only make us have a draft pick somewhere in the mid 20s, but give a false perception of the team actually being good.

by Coach Owens on Aug 31, 2010 9:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

What would the Seahawks have to do this year

for you to not think it was “lucking” into the playoffs? Seriously.. break down the scenario… 10-6? 11-5? What’s the cut point?

"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper

by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on Aug 31, 2010 9:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Maybe if they beat the Chargers, Giants and Saints,

I will. Or if they have a > .500 record on the road this year.

by Coach Owens on Aug 31, 2010 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

I was probably a bit harsh in my original comment and I will certainly be fired up and happy if we make the playoffs.

But like Brian and others mentioned I’m worried that it will reinforce a bad philosophy and could lead to more years of losing (Like Bavasi).

by MFAN on Aug 31, 2010 9:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's entirely possible that the team could have a good record this season.

Easy schedule, some good performances and the team could finish north of 8-8

What terrifies me is if that happens, it’s going to reinforce the idea that dealing players so far below their value for low-range draft picks is a good, winning strategy. I just can’t see that working long-term and the thought of that happening is terrifying.

by BrianL on Aug 31, 2010 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Why do we make the assumption

that the strategy is static? Doesn’t it make sense that perhaps, once Carroll has shaped the roster to his liking, the strategy might change or evolve?

"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper

by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on Aug 31, 2010 9:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

In Carroll's & Scheider's own words, it's not a roster-shaping move

article here

Pete Carroll believes that Kelly Jennings is a comparable player:

Carroll: “It’s [Thurmond’s] emergence and Kelly’s play together which really gives us a chance to make a move like this.”

[Was Jennings ahead of Wilson?]
Carroll: “They were splitting time so we were pleased that both guys could play for us and that was evident all throughout their camps. Kelly has done a wonderful job for us.”

John Schneider knew that the Ravens were all hot & bothered for Josh Wilson:

Schneider: “This was a team that was very aggressive in coming after Josh. They have a situation where they have a strong need…”

John Schneider specifically asserted that this was a market-driven trade value:

Schneider: “What happens is the market is different at different times. Randy Moss was traded for a fourth-round pick. It fluctuates. Right now with Josh in terms of a value, we felt like it was at a level where with him being an unrestricted free agent next year it was at a point where we thought was definitely fair.”

So there we have it. They can’t distinguish the gap between Jennings and Wilson, Schneider becomes oddly generous when a rival team is more desperate, and he considers the 14-34 Raiders (2007-2009) as clever a dealer as the 37-11 Patriots.

by Jason_D on Sep 1, 2010 3:55 AM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

If they make it to the playoffs with this team

They’d be that much better with Wilson. Period.

by m_b on Aug 31, 2010 9:30 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

This is bizzaro world stuff

by the arguments I’m reading here, NO 2010 result would possibly justify this trade, short of winning XLV.

What. The. Fuck. REALLY?

"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper

by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on Aug 31, 2010 9:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

Someone please explain this to me

besides public opinion amongst commenters here, what is the EVIDENCE that this “roster construction process” is flawed? Oh, that’s right we won’t know UNTIL THE GAMES START.

Please. Explain how I am wrong here.

"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper

by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on Aug 31, 2010 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

We know this process of roster contruction is flawed because the team is worse today than yesterday.

And the changes that the return for Wilson makes them better than they’d have been keeping Wilson is Tom Brady slim.

by Nate Dogg on Aug 31, 2010 9:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

But other than this trade, no other roster move has been THAT bad

Even if you include the Jackson trade as being (a.) nearly as bad and (b.) an example of the same process of causing the Wilson trade, I wouldn’t necessarily conclude that the FO is flawed.

Mainly because I like a lot of the other moves this team has made.

by J.L. White on Aug 31, 2010 10:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

I liked their draft.

I really haven’t liked their FA or trade moves.

by BrianL on Aug 31, 2010 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'll counter with BMW, Vickerson, Balmer and Leon Washington

Not to mention the draft we had, and not giving up waaaaay too much for Brandon Marshall or Vincent Jackson. Maybe those moves/non-moves don’t make up for the three you listed….but still, none of those moves are AS BAD as the Wilson trade, either.

by J.L. White on Aug 31, 2010 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

I believe it was Vickerson back then

But even if Carroll wanted LenWhale more, that trade was still a good one for us. We literally moved down 9 picks (I believe) in the 4th round (and moved back another pick, I believe) to get them. By himself Vickerson is still a steal.

by J.L. White on Aug 31, 2010 10:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, that kind of just seems silly.

There’s plenty of evidence in the file, and it ain’t getting any smaller.

by Kingdomer on Aug 31, 2010 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

As John said, Wilson had proved himself to be an excellent nickleback

and, at age 25, still has plenty of time to develop into an elite corner. He was well worth the pick we used to get him and we just traded him for, at MOST, a fourth round pick.

by Coach Owens on Aug 31, 2010 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

If the team flourishes under the current front office and is a yearly contender,

everyone will be happy. We won’t know if that will happen until they play the games. Now we just have the fear that the FO will continue making moves like the Wilson trade, trading a valuable player for nothing.

by Woodinville_12thMan on Aug 31, 2010 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Dealing Josh Wilson for a 5th round pick or any other player for something so far under their value is bad player valuation.

Good teams don’t do this, they either deal a player for at, near, or more than what they’re worth or they hang on to them and scheme around them. Carroll and Schneider are jettisoning anyone that doesn’t fit their vision without any regards to return isn’t the sign of smart roster management.

by BrianL on Aug 31, 2010 9:42 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

As much as I dislike this move

You have to figure Wilson’s contract status into the argument as well. If Thurmond emerges as a true starter, then you can’t afford to sign him as a nickel/backup for starter money—as their thinking may have gone. Either way, I don’t like it because the team on the field this year is probably worse for the move. But if they saw his re-signing as unlikely, then they just cashed in some value at a position they feel solid at.

But this is a search for a silver lining. Doesn’t matter whether I liked him or not, I just think he’s a very good football player that is going to do well with the Ravens. Walter Thurmond III better be a f-ing stud and make this irrelevant.

by lemonverbena on Aug 31, 2010 9:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

I tend to agree but the player only has one contract year left

So it’s debatable. I’m not saying I agree, I just can rationalize their argument. It’s a judgment call that we’ll have to see play out. On its face, I hate it.

by lemonverbena on Sep 1, 2010 7:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

So did the 30-year-old Richard Seymour, fetching a 1st rounder

Whitehurst, Matt Cassell, & Brandon Marshall were all traded with zero years of cheap contract left, but nonetheless returned high draft picks.

And the possibility remains that a new CBA would have allowed the Seahawks to retain some rights to Wilson at the end of 2010, because he will have accrued only 4 years (making him an RFA under the old system).

by Jason_D on Sep 2, 2010 7:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

Correction 4 years is UFA under pre-2010 rules

But 6 years was RFA in 2010. At any rate, the future CBA is unknown, and other possibilities (such as no cap in 2011, or extra player designation categories) could add value to having an uncontracted Wilson on the roster and season’s end.

by Jason_D on Sep 2, 2010 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

Again, Johnny, would you rather the Seahawks make the playoffs ONCE

and lure the front office into continuing to make trades like this, or do bad and send a message that these moves are only hurting the team and have them learn to make moves that will turn this back into the 2004-2007 Seahawks?

by Coach Owens on Aug 31, 2010 9:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'd rather make the playoffs for the next ten years

And it’s in the real of possibilities that the Carroll and Schneider show could work. Face it, we have them for at least the next three years. if we suck in three years, making the playoffs the first year won’t mean a lick of difference.

by B.B.Finnegan on Aug 31, 2010 10:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Whatever this team does it would have done more with Josh Wilson on it.

So nothing they do can justify the trade. Will I be happy if they make the playoffs? Yes, but I’ll wonder what they would have done if they hadn’t given talent players away for nothing.

by Nate Dogg on Aug 31, 2010 9:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nothing.

Literally nothing? Wow. I like Josh Wilson too… but he aint Dave Brown, guys… and if we are 9-7 and I get to go to a home playoff game next January, I’ll be a happy fucking 12.

"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper

by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on Aug 31, 2010 9:40 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Yes, and they might

be 10-6 or 11-5 with him. We DON’T KNOW YET.

"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper

by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on Aug 31, 2010 9:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

without him

my bad

"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper

by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on Aug 31, 2010 9:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Actions can be good or bad regardless of outcome.

Outcomes can be good or bad regardless of actions.

Trading any player for less than equal value is a bad action, regardless of the outcome.

This isn’t a hard concept.

It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray

by Faux on Aug 31, 2010 9:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

I honestly don't even understand what you're arguing.

Do you think the team is better today than it was yesterday?

by Nate Dogg on Aug 31, 2010 9:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm saying

we won’t have any idea if the team is better, worse, successful, unsuccessful, until the games start.

And a LOT of people here are saying, basically, that even if the Seahawks win, they lose.

Curious.

"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper

by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on Aug 31, 2010 9:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

NO

What people are saying that if we win but then become bad right away it is a bad thing.

Nobody is saying that if the Seahawks have sustained success it’s a bad thing.

People are saying that from what we’ve seen out of Carroll, it looks like they don’t know how to properly execute trades and evaluate inherited talent. Bad process is bad process. Him having success doesn’t make the Wilson trade a good trade.

by Woodinville_12thMan on Aug 31, 2010 9:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

If the Seahawks make the playoffs I don't give a fuck and I will worry about the consequences later

This team has shown in the past that they have no problem with acting swiftly and harshly if they don’t think something is working.

by Robert on Aug 31, 2010 9:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Explain to me how the teams record will tell you if they're better without Wilson.

You’ll only know what they are without him. You’re completely ignoring what they could be with him.

by Nate Dogg on Aug 31, 2010 9:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

If the Mariners traded Felix Hernandez for Angel Pagan and got better we'd all still be pissed.

I know that’s an extreme example, but I would still loath Jack Z for the move even if the M’s won the world series that season.

by MFAN on Aug 31, 2010 9:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Um yeah

Josh Wilson aint Felix Hernandez. At all.

"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper

by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on Aug 31, 2010 10:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's a decent comparison though. If the M's traded Felix for Brennan Boesh and Pineda came up and won 15 games it'd still have been a dumb trade.

It doesn’t matter if Thurmond starts and is awesome because you could have had awesome Thurmond and awesome Wilson, the two aren’t mutually exclusive.

by Nate Dogg on Aug 31, 2010 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

We lose if we continue to make moves like this, yes.

We may make the playoffs this year, we may not. But these kinds of moves do not help build a juggernaut. Moves like Ruskell’s trade of our 2009 second round pick for Denver’s 2010 first round pick (basically Alphonso Smith for Earl Thomas) are moves that help build a juggernaut. That’s a move that is trading something for something of greater value, not something that is far less value.

by Coach Owens on Aug 31, 2010 9:51 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Can you honestly say to yourself

That the team is better right now than it was 8 hours ago?

by Woodinville_12thMan on Aug 31, 2010 9:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's true, but the thought behind these trades isn't comforting.

Again, Pistol may be no Dave Brown but he is miles ahead of Kelly Jennings. Not to mention the fact that we actually had depth at CB for the first time in I don’t know how long. Remember that Thurmond is a risk and Trufant, good as he is, turns 30 on Christmas.

by Coach Owens on Aug 31, 2010 9:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

I guess it comes down to this

like Patton Oswalt said about the Star Wars prequels: “I don’t give a shit where the stuff I love comes from. I just love the stuff I love.” In this context, I don’t care about how the Seahawks win as LONG AS THEY WIN. Perhaps it’s just the fact that I don’t think you CAN know anything about this shit before the team takes the field. Success in the NFL is based entirely on W/L-based hindsight.

"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper

by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on Aug 31, 2010 9:51 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

How much winning in one year?

Win the Super Bowl, then suck for 5 years? I’ll take that :)

"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper

by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on Aug 31, 2010 10:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well yes

That would be bad. But, as I’ve said before… I’d take a string of 9 or 10 win seasons that gave me some amount of hope from year to year that we could win the Super Bowl. That’s all I want. One fucking ring. Once we get that, ok, let’s talk about building a dynasty.

"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper

by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on Aug 31, 2010 10:08 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I don't think you're saying the Wilson trade was a good thing

But I think an implication has been made by other commenters here that EVEN IF the Seahawks make the playoffs this year, the Wilson trade is a sign that this FO is fundamentally flawed and should be replaced.

And I disagree; no matter how bad I think this trade is, I will not call for John Schnieder’s head (especially before the team plays their 1st regular-season game under his command) because of this one trade.

As for the other question….I’m not sure if this trade will have any impact on how successful this team is this year compared to other seasons, so it might be too early to judge the short term vs long term effects of the Josh Wilson trade.

by J.L. White on Aug 31, 2010 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Fuckin A.

Couldn’t agree more.

"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper

by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on Aug 31, 2010 10:19 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

It MIGHT be too early?

It’s WAY too early. Doesn’t mean we can’t be upset for losing an awesome player, though.

"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM

by Nick Andron on Sep 1, 2010 8:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

Look, we're not complaining so much that Josh Wilson was traded

as much as it is the return we got from it. If we had received, say, a first round pick for him, I’d be upset for a few minutes about it but I’d be glad that Schneider got equal value (or greater) for Wilson.

by Coach Owens on Aug 31, 2010 9:53 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I want to win

but what I want more than that is to lose less often than we win. The way Pete and John are handling the roster makes me fear that the long-term future contains far more losing than winning.

by BrianL on Aug 31, 2010 9:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

Exactly.

We won’t know for a while, but the process looks bad at this moment.

by Woodinville_12thMan on Aug 31, 2010 9:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Then you should be upset because this doesn't help them win now or later.

The team can succeed despite this but their success is now less likely. Every move they make like this makes it less likely they succeed despite themselves and more likely they blow.

by Nate Dogg on Aug 31, 2010 9:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Again, my thoughts exactly.

This is exactly what we’ve been trying to say.

by Woodinville_12thMan on Aug 31, 2010 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

For the record

I am upset, and I don’t like the trade.

I’m just not ready to smear ash on my face and declare the Carroll administration DOOOOOMED! DOOOOMED! to fail.

"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper

by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on Aug 31, 2010 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

And we're not either.

We’re merely saying that moves like this are examples, of bad, bad, bad decision making. And yes, there is a lot of overreacting here because Josh Wilson was one of the most awesome Seahawks in a long time.

by Coach Owens on Aug 31, 2010 10:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

One of the most awesome Seahawks in a long time?

Really? By what metric? We all liked the guy, and no one likes this trade, but I feel like a lot of us are letting our positive affect towards Wilson run wild. He wasn’t going to end up in the Ring of Honor. Nice player, great kid. Not an all-timer.

"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper

by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on Aug 31, 2010 10:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Awesome as in likeable, not talent-wise.

I mean just look at that Jets game where he threw snow up in the air.

by Coach Owens on Aug 31, 2010 10:03 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

What makes you so sure of that?

Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.

by SSreporters on Aug 31, 2010 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Also still just 25...

He still may become an All Timer, you don’t know that any better than any of us do. And a lot of us feel he is awesome because of his attitude and the way he plays the game. He’s got flair and is a fun guy to follow and watch. We are disappointed that we will not be able to do that anymore.

by Woodinville_12thMan on Aug 31, 2010 10:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Johnny,

Everyone here would be happy were this team to make the playoffs. It’s just that we don’t want the team to make the playoffs, therefore proving the front office to be competent, just to have the team return to sucking the year after. Getting into the playoffs buys Schneider and Carroll more years at the helm. Fans fear if we get into the playoffs and don’t build on our success and turn the team into a yearly playoff contender but rather have one good year and revert to bad years.

by Woodinville_12thMan on Aug 31, 2010 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

We're going in circles here

you’re making the a priori assumption that Carroll/Schneider are doomed… based on what, exactly? That we don’t like the trades? If the roster moves result in the team winning, what the fuck do we have to complain about?

"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper

by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on Aug 31, 2010 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well johnny

What happens if we don’t “make the playoffs”?

by m_b on Aug 31, 2010 9:50 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Why is "make the playoffs" in quotes?

isn’t that, you know, what we are trying to do? Make the playoffs, because that’s the only way you have a chance at winning the Super Bowl?

If they miss the playoffs, and the secondary is getting torched, next spring I’ll be saying “yup, that Josh Wilson trade sure was fucking stupid.”

"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper

by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on Aug 31, 2010 9:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

If we make the playoffs but our secondary is getting torched

And ultimately is our downfall against someone like Aaron Rodgers, then yes “that Josh Wilson trade was stupid”.

Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.

by SSreporters on Aug 31, 2010 9:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

The Josh Wilson trade is stupid no matter what

But I’m not willing to use it call for his firing no matter if we make the playoffs or not. Too many times people just get so angry at one person that they seemingly rewrite history to paint him in the worst light possible, no matter the outcome in the real world (it happens all the time in politics).

I’d hate for this trade to lead to a crusade against Q/PM no matter what, no matter how awful I think thi s trade was.

by J.L. White on Aug 31, 2010 10:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

They're gonna need a little more rope

…to succeed in hanging themselves.

/dick joke

by Bloof on Aug 31, 2010 10:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

But that's Johnny's point, right?

We’ll know once the games begin whether this was a good trade or not? On the surface it looks terrible, but we’ll know for sure at the end of the season.

by Flahawker on Sep 1, 2010 5:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

Just earlier today, I was really excited for the season to start

Now, I just feel like our team is doomed. It appears that our management has no clue how to put together a successful NFL franchise. It sucks that our bloggers are smarter than the people making the decisions. It reminds me of the Bavasi era all over again. Schneider is an IDIOT! Also, I have this feeling that he traded a 5th round pick for Polumbo. Therefore, essentially trading Josh Wilson for a back up tackle who was probably going to be cut anyway. Sigh…

by rrenner07 on Aug 31, 2010 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Pete bought into his own hype after all

Contention is unlikely but when you’re one Alex Smith knee injury away from being the favorite and you pull THIS crap off….

You’re planning to fail.

I change my mind, I now consider it very likely Seattle finishes equal to or worse than 5-11 than better. Because by then, we’ll have traded all our good players away.

Toronto FC - Where road games are forfeited and we STILL have no idea how to play from behind.

by SSreporters on Aug 31, 2010 8:51 PM PDT reply actions  

They were just pretending

to be interested in competing this year.

/dick joke

by Bloof on Aug 31, 2010 8:53 PM PDT reply actions  

This is all some convoluted plan

To draft Jake Locker.

Toronto FC - Where road games are forfeited and we STILL have no idea how to play from behind.

by SSreporters on Aug 31, 2010 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

Let's do some basic math

Wilson (#55 pick, 2007) – 6 interceptions in 3 seasons. 3 INT for touchdowns + 1 kick return for touchdown.
Jennings (#31 pick, 2006) – 1 interception in 4 seasons.

I won’t even bother with fumbles forced, sacks, whatever.

That’s all you need to know.

Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.

by SSreporters on Aug 31, 2010 9:12 PM PDT reply actions  

In all fairness....

Wilson’s picks came predominantly from the nickel spot, whereas Jennings have not. The opportunities for a starting CB and a nickel-back are different.

Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
PS: Screen name isn't what you think it means.

by iverson2169 on Sep 1, 2010 7:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Whatevs

Bitch needed to learn how to make it the last 5 yards on kick returns or needed to get gone. Looks like this tells us he is a slow learner.

by Robert on Aug 31, 2010 9:13 PM PDT reply actions  

This can only mean one thing:

We’re going to sign Richard Marshall as a FA next season. He’s 5’11". Two ‘loudah’. And I’m convinced he would be an upgrade over even Wilson. There must be a plan. Must be…

The contract year thing is definitely a factor.

Red Bryant: surprise us!

by Misfit74 on Aug 31, 2010 9:19 PM PDT reply actions  

Just sayin

it didn’t help us in most likelihood did it Robert?

by EzPz on Aug 31, 2010 9:19 PM PDT reply actions  

While I know that this post will bring the wrath of most all other posters from this thread and site-

When I first got this text update on my phone today I was shocked first because Wilson was traded and then reading that it was for a 5th, possibly 4th round pick. I would have expected to read 3rd round pick knowing that anything higher would not happen….but thats not what I read, and one of my favorite quotes is “it is what it is.”

After reading all the posts on this site as well as ESPN, I do notice a much different attitude and opinion from Seahawk fans between the 2 sites. I am still not sure how I completely feel about this trade- mainly for a few reasons which I am not sure if you all care or want to read or hear, but this is exaclty what this site is for- fans thoughts and opinions on what happening with “their” team, and of course the response from others.

First off- I feel that something else is coming that this trade has either led to (tho aquiring a conditional 4th/5th round pick wouldnt be a deal breaker), but more that this opens the position for someone else to be brought in.
Second- I keep reminding myself and asking the question of why hasnt Wilson flat out beat Jennings out the last 2 years (including this year) for the #2 CB spot, and why was another CB brought in last year (acknowledging the injury to TRU)? Yes, I know that Wilson eventually started ahead of Jennings as the season progressed but was this because of Wilson’s stellar play, Jennings poor play of a combination of the 2?
Next, as John points out- Wilson is short, and unlike pretty much any other CB in the league in that regard. Which again makes me wonder or question, was he that outstanding a player that he was starting material despite this or was he “the exception that proves the rule”? is he someone who could regularly line up against bigger stronger receivers and shut them down or be more than servicable? Or was he simply a nickle back who played very well against slot receivers? (the same position we were excited Earl Thomas would be able to play or Walter Thurmond able to play). Maybe this is all because of the short-sidedness of the former and current coaches, or maybe there is more to this than we as critics and die-hard fans can see. Whatever the case, I think Wilson’s time in Baltimore will provide answers to those questions and hind-sight will of course be 20-20….either in that we made a terrible trade, or seeing Wilson on a better team and better defense will make any difference or comparison in talent obvious. So while we do like to make quick reactions- time will tell….in seeing if this is the tip of the iceburg at the CB position, or if this is a terrible horrible decision by the Seahawk front office.
But this leads me to my main point and the whole reason for this long and drawn out post, is while we are upset, pissed, confused, dumbfounded, and standing their with our palms facing the sky screaming WTF; either its too early to declare “the sky is falling” and Pete and John are complete idiots and are continuing to ruin this franchise and send us further into a tailspin toward middle earth, or like J Morgan pointed out and questioned about us being ignorant to the people in charge of making decisions for the teams and organizations we love and follow intensetly and do they really know what they are doing or are they really any more qualified or have anymore expertise than any of us do. Or are we being ignorant in another way to the fact that we as fans sometimes get lost in the “personal” side of things with players and our teams like we would with our own children who are maybe not the most athletic, most intelligent, best citizens or best decision makers. One thing that I do believe front office personel in any sport or business for that matter have to do is to remove themselves from the personal side of things and look at everything else.

Even with the quote from JS, I dont think Seattle could have have easily replaced Wilson with Jennings in that trade like we may be able to in Madden. I think Baltimore saw more value in Wilson as a returner where Jennings has no value- the Ravens projected returner Donte Stalworth is out for I believe the 1st weeks- so Wilson provides value in the return game as well at CB or nickle corner.

Just to put this post in perspective, I am only trying to put things in a different perspective and step back from things and ask a few questions about the player involved and the overall impact he made and impact that will be lost…not to alienate myself from the rest of you or point fingers at anyone of us as being wrong. So, I guess- Take it as you will.

by sdoebele on Aug 31, 2010 9:20 PM PDT reply actions  

Wilson is going to look good in Baltimore.

He’ll benefit from a better offense and better pass-rush. It will be impossible to compare what he does there with what he might have done (or has done) here.

Red Bryant: surprise us!

by Misfit74 on Aug 31, 2010 9:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wilson bad, FO good.

"Oh, the usual. I bowl. Drive around. The occasional acid flashback."

by the other side on Aug 31, 2010 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Midgets not allowed.

Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.

by SSreporters on Aug 31, 2010 9:29 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

thats not what is says at all...

thats what yo expect it to say….yes its long- winded, but I think some interesting questions

by sdoebele on Aug 31, 2010 9:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Dude you just made me read this.
But this leads me to my main point and the whole reason for this long and drawn out post, is while we are upset, pissed, confused, dumbfounded, and standing their with our palms facing the sky screaming WTF; either its too early to declare "the sky is falling" and Pete and John are complete idiots and are continuing to ruin this franchise and send us further into a tailspin toward middle earth, or like J Morgan pointed out and questioned about us being ignorant to the people in charge of making decisions for the teams and organizations we love and follow intensetly and do they really know what they are doing or are they really any more qualified or have anymore expertise than any of us do. Or are we being ignorant in another way to the fact that we as fans sometimes get lost in the "personal" side of things with players and our teams like we would with our own children who are maybe not the most athletic, most intelligent, best citizens or best decision makers.

What the hell is that? It’s one fucking sentence.

"Oh, the usual. I bowl. Drive around. The occasional acid flashback."

by the other side on Aug 31, 2010 9:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's two.

But it’s still torture.

/dick joke

by Bloof on Aug 31, 2010 9:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

You know what? You're right.

I saw the period and thought, “Ha. Two.”

But those aren’t sentences. Those are syllabic excretions.

/dick joke

by Bloof on Aug 31, 2010 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Win now. Win forever.

Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.

by SSreporters on Aug 31, 2010 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Try separating your paragraphs because this is impossible to follow

But I’ll know I’ll disagree.

Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.

by SSreporters on Aug 31, 2010 9:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

I thought I had put extra spaces between paragraphs,

but with all the jumping around from comments during it didnt happen obviously.

by sdoebele on Aug 31, 2010 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's true that Baltimore badly BADLY needs cornerbacks

Which is why you’d think the return on a trade like this would be a bit more…promising.

by Kingdomer on Aug 31, 2010 9:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

You know that whole short comment was made in jest.

The knock on Wilson’s height quite literally is over one inch.

by BrianL on Aug 31, 2010 9:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

So Wilson is worse than we think and the FO is better than we think.

Okay.

"Oh, the usual. I bowl. Drive around. The occasional acid flashback."

by the other side on Aug 31, 2010 9:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

"Jennings has no value- "

taken out of context only slightly… the one part of this post I agree with

by farmer cam on Aug 31, 2010 9:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

You guy's aren't really getting out of this post what the OP intended.

I believe he just wanted to say that it’s early to be so reactionary and to let time tell if what the FO is doing is bullshit.

With that said, this trade is complete shit and makes our team worse. The value gained in return is nothing. Apparently PC and JS think they can build their team entirely through middle-late round picks…It makes no sense at all and I’m furious.

by Woodinville_12thMan on Aug 31, 2010 9:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

yeah... we know

it’s just more fun this way… we need a scapegoat

by farmer cam on Aug 31, 2010 9:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

yes, thats what the jist of it was...I could have said it in so many words, but

I typically feel the need to explain more than needed. I just feel everyone is being very reactionary, which is more than understandable and somewhat the point of blogs or posting sites, but I believe, and maybe false hope that more is to come.

by sdoebele on Aug 31, 2010 9:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

The title of this post is "a completely irrational response"

If anything, this is a reactionary thread.

by DrunkAmerican on Sep 1, 2010 8:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

I concede that John Schneider is no dumber than tape measure

[Josh = short] = bullshit

Combine and body metrics are for draft prospects who haven’t been regularly tested against NFL talent. Anyone who uses them to evaluate a 4th-year player with 40+ game tapes available is a blithering idiot.

by Jason_D on Sep 1, 2010 4:40 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I say wait and see on Weaver

I think he still might become a decent weapon if Kolb doesn’t suck complete wang

by EzPz on Aug 31, 2010 9:24 PM PDT reply actions  

i can say without a whiff of hyperbole that this post is the best post in the history of this site.

by bitterguy on Aug 31, 2010 9:32 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

its not flawless look at the guy in the back ground

by mgxWrecker on Aug 31, 2010 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

touche.

Background guy, you have ruined it for me.

by Kingdomer on Aug 31, 2010 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

That is Citizen Kane clapping

An iconic moment in film-making history…

…but now a widely used GIF on the internet.

Truly we are reaching the pinnacle of our civilization.

by Thomas Beekers on Sep 1, 2010 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

I want to punch Schnieder in the face

What a god damn fucking idiot. That stupid smug ugly fuck. God I am just so pissed. Reading his press conference quotes about how it was a deal they could not pass up…my god. Really? Just could not pass the chance to make my beloved team FAR FUCKING WORSE!?

Pistol, have fun being on a great team that is likely in for many years of sustained success. Wish I could remember what that was like.

by Dialectic on Aug 31, 2010 9:34 PM PDT reply actions  

There I was walking through Costco with my wife in the freezer section waiting on my wife, so I get out the Droid go to NFL news app 1st article I loudly said THEY TRADED WILSON WHO THE FUCK MADE THAT DECISION!! so our remaining trip through Costco and our ride back home I tried and tried to rationalize to maybe see what they see and my conclusion. They must have a lot of faith in Thurmond and or Lewis. If you are a GM that is draft happy you want to look at the roster of CB’s and say who can I trade that has the potential to get me a high draft pick on performance and Wilson is the obvious choice. I see this coming back to bite us in the ass come week one I hope its not Jennings starting.

by mgxWrecker on Aug 31, 2010 9:37 PM PDT reply actions  

please use the subject line before you comment.

Thanks.

Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.

by SSreporters on Aug 31, 2010 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

And since I never got the chance to say this in earlier threads because I lost the chart

Hasselbeck’s infamous dive @ SF last year falls under “Bad Process, Bad Outcome”.

Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.

by SSreporters on Aug 31, 2010 9:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

this

never gets old…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI

Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!

by jubelthebear on Sep 1, 2010 8:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

I've said it before and I'll say it again

You can’t evaluate a process that you don’t understand.
Results are all that matters. In the end, even if every fan out there thinks its a bad process, but it ends up with winners, its probably a good process that we just don’t understand.

I don’t necessarily agree with this move right now, because I like you, am emotionally attached to the player. If you aren’t worrying about winning this season, getting value from something that will have no value at the end of the season is a good process.

by stufr on Sep 1, 2010 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

I just don't understand HOW...

any armchair GM (not trying to pick a fight with you SSreporters) can unilaterally declare this trade is bad process…

Wilson is a career nickel back. He has great ball skills and has consistently improved, but he is still a nickel back. Where is the evidence that this is bad process?

Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
PS: Screen name isn't what you think it means.

by iverson2169 on Sep 1, 2010 7:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

The round he was drafted in is irrelevant at this point isn't it?

Ryan Leaf was drafted 2nd overall, but that doesn’t mean he is 2nd overall talent. Defining Wilson’s value by where he was drafted presupposes that he was drafted value appropriately. I could argue that a 2nd round pick should be starting.

The reality of Wilson’s value is that he is (as of now) a career backup, and good special teamer. I don’t think that a 5th (potential 4th rounder) is so out of whack that we can unilaterally call it bad process. There are a number of things that we may not know about that may have led to this decision: contract status, prior discussions with the team…..

Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
PS: Screen name isn't what you think it means.

by iverson2169 on Sep 1, 2010 11:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wilson has been starting

Regarding his value, courtesy Morgan’s earlier post:

Here’s the skinny: Josh Wilson is a 25-year old corner and former second-round pick that has amassed in three seasons, and mostly on very poor pass defenses, more value than an average fifth-round pick amasses in their entire career.

The backlash is directly related to (what we perceive to be) Wilson’s demonstrated value. If those numbers don’t convince you, some more intuitive evidence might be: (1)We didn’t make much fuss over the low-round trade for former first-rounder LoJack, and (2)Observe the collective orgasm that Baltimore fans are enjoying right now.

by Jason_D on Sep 2, 2010 7:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

Not about convincing me....

I think my point is about getting in such an uproar over backup CB’s and 5th round picks.
It seems to me the collective fuss seems to have a tinge of personal attachment in it.

Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
PS: Screen name isn't what you think it means.

by iverson2169 on Sep 2, 2010 9:00 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I think you're being to narrow-sighted in labeling Wilson as a career backup CB.

By labeling him thus (using depth chart perspective), one diminishes the perceived value that Wilson has.

He’s improved greatly to the point that he’s a starting-caliber CB, and he has made starts and continued to even when Trufant came back. That he hasn’t won the 2nd CB outright is not necessarily reflective of him, but perhaps of the personnel around him and the coaches.

His value, most can agree, is greater than the average 5th round pick.

Golden!

by Carl Shinyama on Sep 2, 2010 9:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

I agree with you Carl...

But not so much so that a potential 4th for him makes me foam at the mouth. Also, in light of the pending (potential) UFA we would have been facing next year, it seems a relatively prudent move.

Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
PS: Screen name isn't what you think it means.

by iverson2169 on Sep 2, 2010 8:10 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

so..

we’re playin the dumb luck angle?

by EzPz on Aug 31, 2010 9:47 PM PDT reply actions  

It's dumb luck because Thurmond is an unproven commodity.

And Jennings is Jennings.

Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.

by SSreporters on Aug 31, 2010 9:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's bad process if for no other reason it moves Jennings into the starting role AGAIN.

This is freaking Brian Russell all over again. We can’t get rid of the guy.

by Kingdomer on Aug 31, 2010 9:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

To sum this up, now that I've killed an orphan ...

This is a bad move, but it doesn’t kill the team and it doesn’t have a dramatic impact on the season. Right now, I am functioning under the assumption that Pete and John overvalue the draft. That’s a weakness, but not a franchise crippling one. Probably. Moves like this send the team backwards, but all in all, I am trying to keep this in perspective. You do not have to be the smartest team to win. I do not think Seattle is the smartest team, but it still can win.

by John Morgan on Aug 31, 2010 9:56 PM PDT reply actions   2 recs

Finishing last not only gets you the first pick...

but the first pick in every round. I really don’t mind tanking as long as it’s done right.

(Side note: I saw some comments about the M’s game— I hope they didn’t blow it and win again. That would piss me off even more.)

by Kryten on Sep 1, 2010 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

You can stockpile picks without trading your best young talent

Those two aren’t mutually exclusive.

Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.

by SSreporters on Aug 31, 2010 10:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

If Seattle traded Hill, Hasselbeck, Julius Jones, Branch, etc.

For picks, then it would be a lot easier to stomach than dumping Tapp and Wilson.

Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.

by SSreporters on Aug 31, 2010 10:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'd even be willing to trade Trufant and Lofa (Pains me to say that).

Tru looks good, but he’s going to be 30. I love Lofa, but he hasn’t really been healthy since 2007. Both could probably get you a couple 4th rounders and just make more sense to trade.

by MFAN on Aug 31, 2010 10:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not young improving players though

My idea was that limited free agency might strengthen the trade market, and it did, but GMs still overvalue picks.

by John Morgan on Aug 31, 2010 10:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ahh ok. Yeah, I remember mentioning Housh and Trufant as possible trade candidates.

That would obviously make more sense since they are both in their 30’s and still good players.

by MFAN on Aug 31, 2010 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Trufant is 29 for a few more months.

I suggested trading Housh but I mentioned getting Tashard Choice from Dallas but this was pre-draft.

Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.

by SSreporters on Aug 31, 2010 10:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Kelly Jennings is the Kevin Bentley of DB's

He just runs around the field and participates in other defenders’ tackles. Never the playmaker, always the playmaid.

/dick joke

by Bloof on Aug 31, 2010 9:57 PM PDT reply actions  

Disagree. Russell made many plays happen for other teams.

Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.

by SSreporters on Aug 31, 2010 9:59 PM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

That coupled with Colbert's brick hands

Made that a tough loss to swallow.

Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.

by SSreporters on Aug 31, 2010 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's probably his worst play as a Seahawk

People whiff on sacks (Kelly Herndon) but I’ve never seen someone blatantly screen out their own teammate on a double team.

Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.

by SSreporters on Aug 31, 2010 10:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's like saying

… somewhere between Pat Boone and Ke$ha is some good music.

/dick joke

by Bloof on Aug 31, 2010 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

But you do realize Schneider so far seems like he does much better with them.

Which makes sense why he’d overvalue them, when he’s so good at getting value out of them.

by cashless on Sep 1, 2010 2:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

He's had one draft and it was loaded with juniors because of the CBA stuff.

I won’t take any credit away from what he did on draft day but people are annointing them draft gurus a little early.

by Nate Dogg on Sep 1, 2010 8:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

So the time he spent with GB means nothing?

I’d say that much of the GB trends seem to be repeating themselves here, like size at WR and CB for example. I’d say a guy that was high up in the draft process for a team that built themselves into a very strong and extremely young team believes in his ability to scout and draft, and thus will be valuing draft picks very highly.

I’m not basing it simply on the Seahawks, and I’m speaking more to his own perception of himself. I am not anointing him.

by cashless on Sep 1, 2010 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

I feel a metaphor coming on....

Once upon a time, there was a midwest construction worker named Johnny. He poured wonderful foundations.

One day, Johnny was hired to take over general management of a house construction project in Seattle. The project was less than half complete, so Johnny went right to work and poured the foundation for the garage (Okung, et. al.). It was marvelous!

Johnny moved on to the kitchen (the secondary), which already had a foundation and frame. Then he thought to himself, “Shit, I don’t know how to drywall. But I’m soooo good with foundations.” He then proceeded to rip out the timber, thus destroying the prior labor cost required to hammer it in place, and damaging the foundation as well. Johnny then sold the timber to buy more concrete so he could replace the foundation he just mangled.

by Jason_D on Sep 2, 2010 7:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

That is a poorly concieved metaphor

That doesn’t really properly describe what is going on.

This is a part of Schnieder’s big plan. He has been a part of this type of fundamental rebuilding projects before.

This move makes sense if you look at it from a long point of view and don’t become emotionally attached to him.

by stufr on Sep 2, 2010 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

It was a response to cashless's specific speculation
I’d say a guy that was high up in the draft process for a team that built themselves into a very strong and extremely young team believes in his ability to scout and draft, and thus will be valuing draft picks very highly….
I’m speaking more to his own perception of himself. I am not anointing him.

Cashless speculates that Schneider overvalues draft picks because of his own ability to use them well. The metaphor describes a manager who devalues a subsequent product (framing, 4th-year players) to gain more tools (concrete, draft picks) that match his skills.

This is a part of Schnieder’s big plan. He has been a part of this type of fundamental rebuilding projects before.

This move makes sense if you look at it from a long point of view…

Schneider’s primary responsibility in Green Bay was the draft. He wasn’t the GM.

Rebuilding through the draft doesn’t mean winning a championship with a bunch of rookies. You draft good players and exploit their skills when they’ve reached full (or nearly full) development.

Wilson is a recent draft pick who panned out well. I don’t understand how a 25-year old isn’t included in the rebuilding process. If they’re looking so far down the road, why not trade Trufant instead?

by Jason_D on Sep 2, 2010 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

My only thought is that Wilson isn't the body type that they want

Wilson will always be limited in his ability to cover guys like Fitzgerald. Trufant and Thurmond can.

by stufr on Sep 2, 2010 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

The only thing that has me more horrified and disturbed than the prospect of this season's pass defense

…is the prospect of my daughter blaring a new season of Glee on a weekly basis.

/dick joke

by Bloof on Aug 31, 2010 10:06 PM PDT reply actions  

I don't even care anymore

I just want the season to start and some football and I want to kick the niner’s butts.

by B.B.Finnegan on Aug 31, 2010 10:13 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

That's looking less and less likely

So GO HUSKIES!

Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.

by SSreporters on Aug 31, 2010 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Word.

I think we can all agree on that.

"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper

by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on Aug 31, 2010 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's Seahawks or bust here

don’t have any particular college football allegiance to fall back upon.

"I hate to break it to you, but there is no big lie, there is no system, the universe is indifferent." -Don Draper

by Johnny Peel (DKSB) on Aug 31, 2010 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Is it wrong though I want to smash Denver more than San Fran?

I don’t want Denver to do well.

Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.

by SSreporters on Aug 31, 2010 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

I grew up liking the Niners

But there’s something about McDaniels that screams “1-15!”

Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.

by SSreporters on Aug 31, 2010 10:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Were They Going To Release Pistol?

That thought is swimming around in my head. They might honestly think it was a great move. "Dude, I got a fish on the line. A RAVEN-fish. They are offering us a fifth round pick for Wilson. They don’t even know we were going to release him!!! HIGH FIVE!!!

Over the last two seasons, Wilson has been the guy that, while watching games, I thought, at least we have him.

by Michael Scott on Aug 31, 2010 10:16 PM PDT reply actions  

No.

They were going to have to release a passable corner. They just happened to let the best of the last three years get away.

/dick joke

by Bloof on Aug 31, 2010 10:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Their thinks was

They have a good young group, and this is Wilson’s last year so instead of releasing a good player and letting Wilson walk, they would get something out of him. I don’t know keeping Wilson wasn’t an option through, strict height restrictions I guess

by G-Mo on Aug 31, 2010 10:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

I liked the first way better...

so get off your back and leave yourself alone.

by Kryten on Sep 1, 2010 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'll put on my Schneider cap

Wilson is a free agent after this season. Seattle might not have been able to re-sign, maybe Seattle could not possibly have re-signed him, and the Seahawks are probably not going to compete this year (but don’t tell the boss.) Wilson is not good enough to franchise and so I’m in a fix. Maybe I want this guy, but I do not like losing him without compensation. He might be an RFA, depending on the CBA, but that’s a risk.

Baltimore calls, offers something, that’s better than nothing and, hey, the secondary has looked pretty sweet. For whatever reason, this is the best offer, or maybe Josh wants to go home, or I don’t know, but you pull the trigger because now the Seahawks have turned a future nothing into something, albeit a small something.

by John Morgan on Aug 31, 2010 10:22 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Schneider might be more aggressive in extending players than Ruskell was.

So contract talks may have progressed farther than we realize, far enough that they’re pretty confident they won’t bring him back at whatever he’s asking.

Maybe. Might. Possibly.

by Nate Dogg on Aug 31, 2010 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Good point

and who knows. Same thing might be true up Tapp.

by John Morgan on Aug 31, 2010 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's not like I can not fathom this move

It’s more like, I am noticing some really worrying trends and I think other teams are too.

As for the above, JESUS CHRIST, Pistol.

by John Morgan on Aug 31, 2010 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm worried as well

This trade certainly stinks, and it’s going to linger past this season as well. I still believe that Winning Heals All Wounds (and Paul Allen is not going to fire these guys, even if they go 0-16), but if the trend continues into 2011 then the backlash might be too loud for even Allen to ignore.

by J.L. White on Aug 31, 2010 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

I just have to wonder whether there was any negotiation at all

or if Schneider took the Ravens’ first offer? He wasn’t here during any of the regular seasons while Wilson was, but he had to know that Wilson was worth more than they got, right?

by Coach Owens on Aug 31, 2010 10:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

This is kind of my worry too.

He said the Ravens came hard after Wilson. If thats true you’d think they’d have gotten more for him, that a 5th would have been pretty close to a starting offer from the Ravens. Kind of the same feelings with the A.J. Smith comments.

by Nate Dogg on Aug 31, 2010 10:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Contract terms have a great deal to do with market value

That is why a player with an onerous contract—think Albert Haynesworth, for example—isn’t “worth” what his actual player value is. I’m not disagreeing with you, but if it turns out to be a 4th round pick, then I think it’s close to his value considering his expiring contract. A 3rd would have been more reasonable for our own 2nd-round pick that turned into a player.

Regardless of valuation, I just don’t like keeping Slim Jennings over Wilson. But I see their thinking contract-wise.

by lemonverbena on Sep 1, 2010 8:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

Not a fashionable look

Schneider’s alleged risk aversion is making my brain vomit through my skull.

If one option (keeping Wilson) has an outcome affected by chance (RFA status under a new CBA), then the alternative course of action is affected by that same chance. This is tautological. Schneider is taking the risk of losing rights to a potential high-value RFA in 2011.

What’s more, the perceived trade value is dependent on several risky outcomes that must all land the right way: (1)There must be a new CBA that grants UFA status after four years; (2)There must be a salary cap in 2011; and (3)The rights to a draft pick under the new CBA must be equal to or better than current rights (hell, that contradicts #1).

For our next trick, we punt on 3rd and 12.

by Jason_D on Sep 1, 2010 5:30 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I think this is entirely unfair at this point...

Sorry, but where is the proof that this move warrants a dunce cap? Josh Wilson was very talented, but he has been a career backup so far.

I think it’s amusing how all of the armchair GM’s surface during these types of deals without a true understanding of the real process that goes into making these choices.

I laugh when I look back at how people were crowning the Mariners GM “Z” the king of the west coast prior to the season and look at where they are….

You just dont know….

Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
PS: Screen name isn't what you think it means.

by iverson2169 on Sep 1, 2010 7:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree with your post. I have faith in Schneider still, because by and large, he's shown good judgment.

But in being approached by other NFL GM’s, I know that are a couple question that GM’s should (if not must) ask themselves is this: Is this trade necessary? If not, does this trade make the team better?

I’d be willing to wager considerable money (if I had it, that is) that if John Schneider asked himself either questions, or both, the answer was “no”.

The team is worse today than it was yesterday before the deal was made and it didn’t need to be.

Golden!

by Carl Shinyama on Sep 1, 2010 8:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

No trade is necessary and you are assuming that he is worried about making the team better for week 1 of 2010

If he is looking at making us better for 2011 and beyond then this deal does make us better. No it isn’t necessary, but it was probably the last oppourtunity to make this type of deal. I am guessing that they have something like a big board, that projects personnel both in the short term and long term. I’m also guessing that pistol wasn’t on the long term board. He is a nickel back who will ask for starting CB money and the FO didn’t think he would work.
So yes I believe he answered those questions and pulled the trigger anyway.

by stufr on Sep 2, 2010 4:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

I agree with your opinion..

Whether it turns out to help or hurt the football team remains to be seen, but I would stop well short of calling it a “dunce” move… or horrible process.

Your right. There is a very real possibility that Josh would ask for more money than he’s worth next year. Starter type money that we would either need to walk away from (and get nothing) or match (and overpay for).

It would be unrealistic to think that the team has never had this type of discussion with Wilson’s people, so they are playing from a far more advantaged position than any of us looking on. In this sense, it seems like good process to get something for our asset now, when we are still in a position of leverage.

Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
PS: Screen name isn't what you think it means.

by iverson2169 on Sep 2, 2010 6:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

No trade is necessary? Au contraire, mon frere.

And no, I am not assuming that Schneider is worried about making the team better for week 1 of 2010. In making that statement, it is you who is making the assumption.

Golden!

by Carl Shinyama on Sep 2, 2010 7:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

But the flipside of that same coin is the appeal to authority fallacy.

Besides, reactionary hair-pulling can be fun!

Thank you, Walter Jones.
Thank you, Ken Griffey Jr.

by thebyron on Sep 1, 2010 8:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Noted. Twice.

Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
PS: Screen name isn't what you think it means.

by iverson2169 on Sep 1, 2010 11:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

An armchair GM isn't an armchair engineer

or even an armchair CEO. The NFL operates under intense media scrutinty. We have access to stats; we can watch the players; we have expert opinions from former & current GM’s, coaches, and talent scouts. We do fantasy football, roster projections, draft projections, and betting pools to continuously improve and check the validity of our GM skills.

Could I do Schneider’s job? Certainly not. But that’s because I have no experience evaluating college players, reading & writing player contracts, or doing whatever office stuff is required of a GM. But those are the “engineering” aspects.

Conversely, I yield nothing to Schneider when it comes to strategic risk analysis. By their own words(1), Schneider & Carroll reveal several common psychological fallacies: First, they extrapolate Thurmond’s conjectured development and take it as a given; second, they evaluate Thurmond’s interim value (i.e., what he can do for the team now) as equivalent to his peak value; and third, most importantly, because Schneider cannot immediately determine Wilson’s 2011 value, he discounts it to zero.

I think it’s amusing how all of the armchair GM’s surface during these types of deals without a true understanding of the real process that goes into making these choices.

MARKETS

Any decent economist will tell you that markets have a seemingly magical ability to distribute information. For example, I ask myself: Which is more difficult: Writing a software program, or harvesting, processing, and packaging a crop of wheat? To me, the software is easier. I don’t know jack shit about wheat. But prices, competition, and expert opinions have filtered through the market to tell me that a box of Wheaties is worth less than a new piece of software.

3G Capital just agreed to buy Burger King. Shares of Burger King went up 24% Thurdsay morning, and shares of Wendy’s/Arby’s followed with a 7% gain. Are these buyers & sellers experts on hamburgers? Do they even know what 3G Capital is? I doubt it. They don’t have to, because they understand the market well enough to know how these changes affect prices.

S’okay, back to football. If Schneider had traded a 1st round pick for a 6th & 7th, would it be fair to say that he understands the “real process” better than we, or would it be more accurate to say he got shafted? In fact, an outsider who has simply observed NFL trades can identify the shafting perfectly well, even if they don’t know what a draft pick is, even if they’ve never seen a football game, even without knowing jack shit about football.

Josh Wilson’s market value is not dependent on Schneider’s specialized knowledge of Josh Wilson.

Let me say that again:

Josh Wilson’s market value is not dependent on Schneider’s specialized knowledge of Josh Wilson.

It depends on information available to every GM in the league: His age, position, contract, games started, statistical production(2), and game tape. All but the last are readily available to us, easily quantified and easily compared to other NFL trades. And it’s not too hard to imagine that a Seahawks-focused analyst like John Morgan(3) has garnered at least as much knowledge from game tape as the average non-Seahawk GM.

Hypothetically, Schneider might know something damning about Wilson that other GM’s do not. Maybe he’s developed sickle-cell anemia. In that case, the option to hold Wilson loses long-term value, but he’s still been undersold. Moreover, nothing suggests any secret issues exist.

  • (1) Schneider: “What happens is the market is different at different times. Randy Moss was traded for a fourth-round pick. It fluctuates. Right now with Josh in terms of a value, we felt like it was at a level where with him being an unrestricted free agent next year it was at a point where we thought was definitely fair.”
  • (1)Carroll: “It’s (Thurmond’s) emergence and Kelly’s play together which really gives us a chance to make a move like this.”
  • (2) ProFootballFocus states: “Opposing QBs had a 71 QB rating throwing into Wilson’s coverage in ’09. No other SEA corner was under 100”
  • (3) Again, even though JM doesn’t run an NFL team, his ability to analyze players is consistently verifiable by comparing evaluations and predictions (e.g., a roster projection) to results.

by Jason_D on Sep 2, 2010 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions   3 recs

No offense to JM, but your whole argument is predicated on he is just as good as a GM, so I believe him

With all due respect to JM, but he is just a writer. That means he doesn’t answer to anyone. If he is wrong it doesn’t matter. He isn’t at every practice or meeting. He doesn’t know where they are taking the team over the next couple of years, the vision if you will. He doesn’t know what the collective bargaining agreement will look like, no one really knows, but owners seem to have a good idea in general what the salary constraints will probably be. There are many factors, some of them listed by you under the category of you don’t understand them above.
He may be a guy who knows a lot about football and the Seahawks and have a very good eye for basic evaluation, but….
He is still just a writer and not a paid professional football front office man
We traded a nickel corner that was loved, who was going to be an UFA at the end of the year. It appears that he wasn’t in the Seahawks plan based on skill vs expected salary. If an UFA walks the team probably gets nothing. They got something for nothing.
Remember…
I said with all due respect.

by stufr on Sep 2, 2010 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

What he actually said

Is that a thorough Seahawks analyst — like our own John Morgan — watches as much Seahawks tape (or likely more) as a non-Seahawks GM. He did not say that John is “just as good as a GM”.

Anyway, if anyone in the future ever needs an example of a textbook “appeal to authority” comment, this one should do the trick.

by busplunger on Sep 2, 2010 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

JM is the authority to which he is appealing to

He is saying, JM says its bad so I think its bad.

by stufr on Sep 2, 2010 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, he's relying on John's specialized knowledge that comes from tape scouting

Which, along with multiple other factors listed, comprises his sum valuation of a player or transaction.

But that’s a different thing: I don’t think this discussion is intended to be of the “whose authority is more authoritative” variety.

Rather, he’s pointing out how and why a fan (himself, John, me, you, etc.) can come to a reasonable opinion of the merits of a personnel move without stooping to the “well we aren’t the GM so we can’t possibly know anything” argument, which is how this (highly interesting) subthread began.

by busplunger on Sep 2, 2010 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

I never said or implied
well we aren’t the GM so we can’t possibly know anything

I merely think that given a multi year view of the team that there is a logical reason for the trade. It isn’t the greatest value for someone who is a good player and could be even better than he is now. It may be the best ending for this team given how they obviously valued him on this team.

by stufr on Sep 2, 2010 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nor did I say or imply that you said or implied that

:-)

Was just noting that Jason_D’s long comment on the role of the armchair GM was speaking against the idea in general that we can’t evaluate trades because we aren’t on the inside.

by busplunger on Sep 3, 2010 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

That not how the sub-thread began...

My point wasn’t that a non-GM couldn’t have insight into a particular deal…

What I said is that it’s reasonable to assume that in this case there are particulars that only a GM might be privy to (like the possibility that Wilson’s people have had prior discussions about extending the contract).

Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
PS: Screen name isn't what you think it means.

by iverson2169 on Sep 2, 2010 8:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, right

You are right in that armchair GMs don’t have “a true understanding of the real process that goes into making these choices.” But I think we can partake in a meaningful evaluation of a player’s value, or the value returned in trade. We don’t know the process that brought about that trade, but we can certainly look at what shows up on the transaction wire and analyze whether it was a positive or negative move, and to what degree.

And things like internal contract discussions — which neither we as fans nor other NFL organizations (hopefully) are privy to — ought not to have any bearing on a player’s value to the market.

by busplunger on Sep 3, 2010 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

I agree 100%...

For the record, I wasn’t suggesting people NOT add their two cents because there might be private “GM things behind the scenes”… I was offering a counterpoint based on the possibility of this.

I think discussion is healthy and natural.

Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
PS: Screen name isn't what you think it means.

by iverson2169 on Sep 4, 2010 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Fractionally, not entirely

As I said, market value is affected by:

  • age
  • contract
  • position
  • statistics
  • usage (starts, plays)
  • own team evaluation (draft position and efforts to replace)
  • game tape

I am only counting on the likes of Morgan to cover a gap in the last spot.

With all due respect to JM, but he is just a writer. That means he doesn’t answer to anyone. If he is wrong it doesn’t matter.

Certainly not as much as it matters to Schneider. But if JM’s analysis were consistently bad, his popularity would suffer. We would see bad predictions. Morgan himself would see it, and although many humans lack the ability to admit mistakes, Morgan has shown the ability to catch his own errors and an excellent record of admitting ignorance when appropriate.

He isn’t at every practice or meeting. He doesn’t know where they are taking the team over the next couple of years…

If we are speaking of market value, then Morgan’s game tape information on Wilson only needs to be comparable to the average GM, not the Seahawks’ personnel department.

The first six list items— without tape analysis— yield a trade value greater than a 5th-round pick. This market value is as apparent to fans as it is to GMs (see previous post). Thus I see two possibilities:

1 – The collective GM opinion based on game tape is that Wilson sucks a lot worse than his own statistics and the Seahawks’ usage of him indicate. Such a gap is improbable in itself. And if this were the case, I would expect some hint from the non-biased sports writers (e.g., “Wilson but up impressive interception numbers, but only thanks to Seattle’s vaunted pass rush”) or some hint from Field Gulls analysts (e.g., “Wilson was sure fun to watch, but I could see him getting beat quite a bit”).

2 – Schneider got shafted. There is historical evidence that GM’s make bad trades. Plenty of evidence. And evidence of such trades where fans and sportswriters can call it right away, and where the evidence via production proves itself in later years.

I agree that both are possible, but #2 is looking a hell of a lot more likely. And the evidence from fan’s tape evaluation is only a small part of my estimation.

We traded a nickel corner that was loved, who was going to be an UFA at the end of the year. It appears that he wasn’t in the Seahawks plan based on skill vs expected salary.

Schneider’s own words betray several risk-analysis fallacies. The unknown cap & CBA status make Wilson’s 2011 value unknown, not zero. If either of the 2010 aspects (6 years to UFA or no cap) are extended, then Wilson’s value increases. His “expected salary” at the 2011 negotiationg table is unknown, no matter what his agent says now. Furthermore, whether or not he’s worth any particular salary to the Seahawks in 2011 is currently unknown. Josh might have a standout year, Trufant could get hurt and retire, Thurmond could relapse or underdevelop, and Jennings might play like Jennings.

Remember…
I said with all due respect.

I sensed no disrespect in anything. But if you like, you can address me as “My Lord” in the future.

Oh, wait— you meant to JM, right? Never mind.

by Jason_D on Sep 2, 2010 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Regardless of what we think John's ability to judge talent and process is you're hitting on another really important point.

It’s not about what Josh Wilson’s value is to the Seahawks, just like Charlie Whitehurst’s value wasn’t equal to what he was worth to the Chargers. We shouldn’t care if Wilson was just a nickel back for the Hawks or if he was too short for Pete Carroll because he’s tall enought for the Ravens and is likely going to be a starter for them.

The Ravens paid for Wilson what he was worth to the Hawks, not what he was worth to them.

by Nate Dogg on Sep 2, 2010 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nate... I get this.

But why is everyone looking at value as a single point in time?

Here is a very realistic scenario: The Seahawks are not good this year. Wilson gets to UFA next year and wants more than we are willing to pay. He walks for nothing in return.

In this very realistic scenario, we would have already sucked this year and received nothing in return for the future (ie. Wilson’s value to the team this year would have been irrelevant). This is the kind of information that i assume an NFL GM will account for when making a deal that appears on the surface to be imbalanced.

Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
PS: Screen name isn't what you think it means.

by iverson2169 on Sep 2, 2010 8:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think you get it.

It doesn’t matter if he wouldn’t have had any value to the Hawks because they won’t/can’t resign him. He has value to the Ravens.

by Nate Dogg on Sep 2, 2010 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Huh?

The Ravens parted with a 5th round selection for Wilson. That’s what the market bared for him. What don’t I get?

And how can you possibly say that Wilson’s potential UFA status next year had no bearing on the decision? How could you possibly know this?

Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
PS: Screen name isn't what you think it means.

by iverson2169 on Sep 2, 2010 10:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

The exact same thing happens in baseball every summer

Trade value is highly dependant on how many contract years are left and how many years of team control are left.
If he was going to be a RFA or had an option year, maybe we get a third or a conditional fourth, but he was an UFA, which lowered his value at this point in time.
Like in baseball, we might also know what he is going to ask for, because we have started talking to his agent. We don’t like the number they are starting from so we are getting value.

by stufr on Sep 3, 2010 4:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

This makes sense.

Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
PS: Screen name isn't what you think it means.

by iverson2169 on Sep 4, 2010 9:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

if (probability > unrealistic) then (probability^3 > unrealistic)? Not necessarily
Here is a very realistic scenario: The Seahawks are not good this year. Wilson gets to UFA next year and wants more than we are willing to pay. He walks for nothing in return.

I believe Schneider’s fallacy (one of them, anyway) is poor risk analysis.

  • Seahawks not very good this year—
    Seattle is not likely to play in the Superbowl this year. But no team, ever, is more likely than not to make a Superbowl appearance. So what level of Seahawks performance justifies valuing a one-year player?(1) A playoff berth? Eight-and-eight?

Let’s say that Seattle has a tiny, little one chance in four of being sufficiently competitive. Realistically, they are not very good this year.

  • Wilson gets to UFA next year—
    There are several CBA arrangements which might make it worthwhile to have Wilson on the roster at the end of the season: a UFA requirement of 5 years or more (it was 6 years for 2010), a capless 2011 and/or 2012 (no cap for 2010), or a new type of designation (like franchise or transition player) that is appropriate to Wilson’s skill level.

Any of those likely? Let’s say there is a tiny, little one chance in four that any one favorable arrangement will occur.

  • Wilson’s salary demand (and market demand) exceeds what the Seahawks can justifiably pay.

Note that whatever Wilson’s agent demands now is not necessarily what he’ll demand at the end of the season. Likewise, what Seattle is willing to pay can change (Trufant breaks a leg, Thurmond sucks, etc.).

Let’s say there is a tiny, little once chance in four that Wilson’s 2012 salary demand falls within the range that the Seahawks consider a good buy.

That’s three events with a probability of 1/4. The contrary events (the realistic ones) each have a probability of 3/4. But the probability of all three occurring is 3/4 × 3/4 × 3/4 = 27/64 = ~42%. That’s realistic, but less than likely. Granted, those are the numbers I made up, but for the confluence to be likely (> 50%) would require the individual scenarios to each be ~80%.

And I haven’t even considered the probability that Seattle might’ve gotten a higher pick for Wilson by holding out (the 53-man cut isn’t due until Sunday).

On the other hand, the likelihood of the return having value doesn’t necessarily require the 5th-round pick to be a better player than Wilson. If— if— the scenarios all play out, he has to be a better bargain than Wilson. I’m willing to accept that as almost certain (if he makes the roster), because he’ll be under a rookie contract.

But to apply consistent criteria, Mr. 5th has to do more than that: First, he has to develop into at least a useful situational player; second, he has to do that before he’s a UFA (otherwise, according to the let’s-trade-Josh logic, he’s just a full-price free agent); Third, his development has to coincide with the rest of the team reaching the same “good” plateau (whatever that is): and Fourth, his roster spot in non-developed years must not displace another player who might help out a competitive team, which means he either develops very fast or the team just happens to be “bad” again during his developmental years (Wilson is already developed enough to justify his roster spot even as a nickelback+return man, even if he doesn’t elevate to first-string CB; compare with 5th-round draft picks who average less than a year as a starter).

On that note, if we’re going to sacrifice value on the assumption of rebuilding, we should cut Lawyer Milloy outright and evelate a rookie from the practice squad. We should also dump Hasselbeck and anyone else in their last contract year, even if the return is a paltry seventh-round pick.

by Jason_D on Sep 3, 2010 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I prefer to remain optimistic and let this trade play out before I set my hair on fire

I’m not appealing to authority, I just prefer to believe that the FO has a big picture that makes this move make sense. Much like drafts, i don’t believe you can judge these moves immediately and be accurate. You have to wait a couple of years and look back and evaluate the results. This FO doesn’t have a track record yet, so they still get the benifit of the doubt from me. It appears that you prefer to make quick judgements based on what you know now. Thats fine, its just not the approach I prefer to take. No harm no foul.
We both want the team to win, so its at least we are debating with the same goals in the end. Win

by stufr on Sep 3, 2010 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

I understand your argument here...

but I dont think that Wilson is enough of an impact to swing the assessment either way.

The other thing your argument doesn’t consider (and is the entire reasoning behind my posts on this topic)… is that the Seahawks FO may very well have already had these types of discussions with Wilson’s people and assessed (based on those talks) that Wilson leaving next year was a very real possibility.

Your probability calculations dont account for potential inside information (not a stretch by the way… in that FO’s regularly have behind the scenes discussions with player reps about their contracts).

I obviously dont know any of this for sure, but in thinking about a deal that “appears” to be slightly imbalanced…. there are a couple of possibilities that come to mind:

1. Seattle FO are a bunch of retards lacking risk assessment skills…. or
2. There is more to it. Something “behind the scenes:” if you will.

I am more inclined to wait and see (assuming there was more to it), than I am to froth at the mouth because the Seahawks are being run by retards.

Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
PS: Screen name isn't what you think it means.

by iverson2169 on Sep 4, 2010 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Silver lining

These aren’t great, but they are the best I can think up:

First, this obviously makes the Seahawks worse for the 2010 season. While Carroll and company took over a rebuilding project, they only started to put the pieces in place. But at no point did they ever really think this was a championship team. If they thought that losing Wilson at the end of the year was inevitable and were not capable of winning an NFL championship immediately, then trading him and getting a darft pick ensures something for his return. Also, if Wilson wins 2 games (or heavily swings them as ints for 7 tend to do), then that slides the team towards the top of the draft board by a nice chunk. They get to draft his and Jennings replacement sooner (maybe 2nd round again) and not have to give up anyything to move up. If they didn’t see him as the long term answer maybe they sacrificed in the short term in the best fashion they could.

2nd, Carroll/Ruskell came into the NFL again with a lot of question marks. After the draft they looked like geniuses. Now things have changed dramatically. This isn’t an offseason that would forgive a bad season (after both White and Wilson, 2 seemingly solid fails). This FO is pretty much back on even ground, and their incompetence (if that really is the case) will be more open to dissection. They just pissed off the entire fan base, they better have a pretty good reason for it.

I feel as though either you have good people running the team or don’t. The latter and you go nowhere. The Hawks have to take thier stabs at trying to suss one out. At the same time, you have to give them enough rope to let them hang themselves so you know whether to keep fishing or cut bait.

Seriously, I can feel for you. Watching a fan favorite go, getting nothing in fair value from it in return while giving the other side a significantly increased shot at an NFL title, you would think they could have pulled a little more (4th with a chace for a 3rd would seem doable to me). I’m not trying to start a debate and I see the holes in my reasoning, but I just wanted to try and maybe make it a bit easier of a pill to swallow.

It turns out I overestimated my apathy, but not enough to matter.

by einman77 on Aug 31, 2010 10:26 PM PDT reply actions  

That's the biggest hole

I said it was the best I could do, and that I knew there were holes in my argument. Obviously the biggest is that winning now should be more important than making moves in the future. Sorry if I pissed you off, just trying to brighten your day.

It turns out I overestimated my apathy, but not enough to matter.

by einman77 on Aug 31, 2010 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

We all know we are in a rebuilding process.

In this situation it is very hard to choose a side to root for. Do you want the Seahawks to lose for better draft position. Or do you want them to win and draft in the middle of the rounds. We know we are not close to competing for a title just yet, but I don’t want to tank either. As long as I see some young prospects develop and some excitement for the future, I’ll be alright. Shit, we’ve won 9 games in the past two years.I’ve also noticed as far as Prime Time TV we’re in the same boat as TB,STL,CLE,OAK and DET on not having any other games than regular Sunday afternoon. Boooooo!

by PhoneHomeET29 on Sep 1, 2010 6:19 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

I'll be happy with

Trufant, Thurmond, Jennings, Lewis and Parks at the corners. Wilson made plays, but also was a liability his share of the time. Kinda like Babs. I like them both, but when the cuts are made, I’d be happier with Thomas, Milloy, Chancellor and Ellison at the safety spots. I think they are looking 2-3 years down the road for potential more so than just picking the best 53 for this season. We’re rebuilding. Losing some experienced guys is expected. If we kept Wilson for this year, we’d have to drop one of the other younger guys who will be peaking 3-4 years from now when, maybe, we’re contending. And we got something for Wilson now. A 4th or 5th can be used to trade up, not just take a “Herring”. I actually like this move. I hope we also move Hill, JJ and Branch.

by diehard82 on Aug 31, 2010 10:33 PM PDT reply actions  

"Wilson made plays, but also was a liability his share of the time"

I hope, I hope, you meant Jennings.

There is nothing to suggest Wilson was a liability.

Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.

by SSreporters on Aug 31, 2010 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hahahahahaha

Jennings making plays….

by Nate Dogg on Aug 31, 2010 10:35 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

D'oh!

Good point.

Jennings is always a liability.

Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.

by SSreporters on Aug 31, 2010 10:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, I would have been happier with Wilson instead of Jennings

but, I meant Wilson. He’s been burned as much as any of our corners (except Jennings). and nobody was going to give up anything for Jennings. We’d have had to simply release him. Who knows, we may yet. I’m just happy we have Thurmond.

by diehard82 on Aug 31, 2010 10:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

You have to have evidence to make me believe that.

Trufant got burned more than Wilson last year.

Jennings should be released outright but he’s guaranteed job security despite being incompetent.

Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.

by SSreporters on Aug 31, 2010 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Baltimore uses a cover four often

where the DB’s play deep zones. Their system is a good fit for how he plays.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI

Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!

by jubelthebear on Sep 1, 2010 7:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

Actually I think he's better in man.

Ether way he was far from a shutdown corner. I love him. He was good and exceedingly good at several things. But he could be picked on by QBs for stretches.

by jacobstevens on Sep 1, 2010 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

he's better

at playing the ball? Is that the middle ground we’re looking for?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI

Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!

by jubelthebear on Sep 1, 2010 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

I dunno.

In zone, he can break on the play faster than most guys, so he should be better there you’d think, but he doesn’t seem to be in good position in his zone, often. In man, of course there’s some consistent completions getting made even when he’s on his man, but he just seems to shadow very well.

by jacobstevens on Sep 1, 2010 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's true, i guess maybe that's the knock on him

He makes his biggest plays in zone coverage, but then gives up some by being out of position. Whereas in man perhaps he defends well but doesn’t make any big plays.

by B.B.Finnegan on Sep 1, 2010 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wilson was great in zone coverage.

But I have seen numerous times when he’s been burnt in man coverage. No doubt he was a playmaker and a ball hawk, but he wasn’t physical enough in man. No one wanted Jennings and he will most likely be dumped after his contract is over. I was wanting a Wilson jersey too, I feel bad for whoever bought one.

by PhoneHomeET29 on Sep 1, 2010 6:25 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

I'm sorry but there is also nothing

that suggests he is anything more than a nickel back. This deal is not a team breaker.

Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
PS: Screen name isn't what you think it means.

by iverson2169 on Sep 1, 2010 7:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

I know some people are trying to find a silver lining by saying maybe it's a part of an even bigger trade we don't know about.

But even if we were to use the 5th round pick as part of a bundle to get Aaron Rodgers, we still could’ve gotten a better deal and it’s still bad process.

by Hopefulmsfan on Aug 31, 2010 10:47 PM PDT reply actions  

It is still undervaluing a player.

But I guess if GB had asked for a 5th to top it off then why ask for more. And I just realized I’m debating a ridiculous hypothetical trade.

by Hopefulmsfan on Aug 31, 2010 10:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

We trading this 5th round pick plus a Unicorn*

*Unicorn will be acquired from Lions in exchange for an undisclosed 2009 7th round Seahawks draft pick.

by Surf Hawk on Aug 31, 2010 10:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

My question is about how the team values pro personnel more than the trade dynamics

At the outset, I’d argue that were this deal Jennings for a 6th/conditional 5th we might not be so quick to conclude that we deserved a better return mostly because B’More is so desperate for corner help.

John’s comment about Schneider overvaluing draft picks is compelling. To use a hoops analogy, it stands to reason that Schneider wants more “shot attempts” in an area of the floor where he converts shots efficiently.

But I wonder if at a deeper level the “process” we really need to pay closer attention to is pro player evaluation. I wonder if what went on during the Wilson trade isn’t closer to Danny O’s take, where the FO’s tendency to “prototype” just makes them value players a certain way. Euphemistically, I’ll characterize it as an index of current actual value and perceived future value.

In other words, as players move farther away from a positional prototype the FO assigns a lower long-term value, and lowers how much weight they place on current performance. (This seems consistent with what one might expect of a Ted Thompson disciple.) I’m not arguing for or against, but I could see where their valuation chart might say “short corners peak quickly and age poorly” (unless you run a cover 2-heavy scheme). Then on the next page it says, “more prototypical corners, with good technique, may take longer to mature but will hold their value better long-term.” Hence, if it’s even close in practice (keeping in mind that neither Wilson nor Jennings has had a single game snap for this group) then you value the more prototypical corner higher and weight past performance less. (And it has been close in practice, based on my reading of media accounts. Why? I don’t know.)

Obviously, I’m speculating. My point simply is that for all the talk of process here we have largely looked at the pro player transactions disembodied from the underlying principles of talent evaluation for this FO team. Their principles are still coming into focus for us as fans. With Ruskell it was obvious. He put it right out there—high past production, high motor, smart, prototype athleticism not needed. That’s not so true with this group. We just don’t have enough data—I don’t think—at this point to say much that is definitive. About the only thing I’d bet the ranch on is that these guys think that talent distribution in the NFL is pretty tightly clustered, that most guys are pretty darned fungible.

I’m not defending the Wilson trade. There seems little question that it does short term damage to the secondary. Today, Wilson is a significantly better corner than Jennings—and may always be. Still, before I can conclude that their process is hopelessly flawed I need to know more about their assumptions. When it comes to roster construction I think that matters.

"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin

by dcrockett17 on Sep 1, 2010 5:28 AM PDT reply actions   2 recs

good point

That is the best insight I have read yet. Not that it is true or not, but certainly the argument may hold more water than anything else I read here.

It turns out I overestimated my apathy, but not enough to matter.

by einman77 on Sep 1, 2010 7:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

It doesn't matter how the Hawks FO values him, it matters how the Ravens' FO valued him.

If I have a Ferrari but I need a mini van for my 16 kids, I don’t give the Ferrari away for 10% of it’s value because it’s suddenly worthless to me.

People would be bummed about this trade no matter what because Pistol!, but had they gotten a second round pick for him it’d be understandable. With a pick worth something they could get a player that fits their scheme or ideals that has a decent chance to contribute. A fifth round pick is likely just going to be scheme friendly filler.

by Nate Dogg on Sep 1, 2010 8:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

Two things that complicate your point...

1. Supply also drives price — not just demand.

To use your analogy, your guy may want a Ferrari really, really bad but he won’t pay top dollar if a) he can get a better deal from someone else, or b) if he will settle for a “sports car” that’s not a Ferrari at a better price.

I wish football had a better sense of what “replacement level” is at each position. I suspect that once you get past the handful of elites at CB they are about as fungible as RBs. For the record, I love Pistol too. But, the difference in impact between a good young nickle/fringe starter at CB and a replacement level Kelly Jennings type may not be worth paying much of a premium for. We are right on the verge of cut down day when other corners will undoubtedly hit the market. On average, how much worse than Pistol can they be? Sheer supply drives down his market price.

2. Seattle’s perspective matters because Wilson’s roster spot isn’t free.

So what Schneider thinks about him really does matter—even just looking at the process. With limited roster spots, it may not be safe to assume “it’s cheaper to keep her” if you don’t hear a price you don’t like. If you think Pistol has no future on the team, and that his present can be replaced by Jennings/Thurmond this was probably selling high.

"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin

by dcrockett17 on Sep 1, 2010 7:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Schneider likes what he did in GB thru the draft and feels he can do that same thing here which is great.

I just wish he would value certain assets he already has a little higher.

I hope that these picks are being stockpiled for something greater.

by Scruffy Lefty on Sep 1, 2010 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Why must the hawks front office always seem somewhat incompetent

Maybe I need to stick with Soccer where the Sounders make all the right moves. I’m heartbroken right now and I’m not sure I will recover. This makes not an iota of sense to me. John you put all the emotions better, so I’ll leave it at that.

by illwillbli on Sep 1, 2010 6:55 AM PDT reply actions  

Just when Q/PM build up a smidgen of goowill with me from an excellent draft, they go and piss it away.

Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?

by Benne on Sep 1, 2010 7:34 AM PDT reply actions  

Allz I know is that

Thurmond better be a goddamn beast in man coverage. Cause if I have to endure another year of buttered-stone hands Jennings Imma cut myself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI

Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!

by jubelthebear on Sep 1, 2010 7:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

I still feel like shit.

But what keeps the acrid, chunky spew from rocketing out of my stomach and onto my computer screen is the fact that we likely wouldn’t have re-signed him after this season anyway, due to the fact that he’s likely “too short” for our FO’s tastes and he would have been expensive.

"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM

by Nick Andron on Sep 1, 2010 8:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

In all likelihood, this season is meaningless

So I don’t know if I agree with you.

"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM

by Nick Andron on Sep 1, 2010 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Exactly

I completely agree with what you say above and if that is the FO thinking
Then its a good process.
That doesn’t feel very good.
Much like a prostate exam. You don’t like it, but its good for you.

by stufr on Sep 1, 2010 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree

This trade is like some guy sticking his finger up your ass.

by J.L. White on Sep 1, 2010 9:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Open Season on Ruskell's Midgets?

Tim Ruskell did love him some undersized players and the new braintrust really seems to be beefing up some of those positions.

Tapp was very talented, but he was an undersized DE. The fact is that he struggled at times against big offensive linemen. He’s gone, and we seem to be playing Behemoth Red Bryant at one of the Defensive End positions.

Wilson was very talented but undersized. The fact is he struggled at times against big WRs.

It might be telling that 6’5" WR Mike Williams will make the squad and supplant one of our short Deions (Branch and Butler) in regular formations.

Now, if one of those Deions also gets cut or traded than I think I might really be onto something.

As for Forsett, I’m not sure what to make of that situation. He’s definitely one of Ruskell’s midgets, but Ruskell left him unprotected and we lost him for a spell to Indy. Also, Leon Washington is pretty short too.

Finally, it’s worth noting that Max Under is an undersized Center.

If you fill your roster with too many undersized guys, you get pushed around. The new FO seems intent on addressing that problem. But why why why Josh Wilson?? :(

by Keasley on Sep 1, 2010 8:35 AM PDT reply actions  

But I'd tend to agree

Many of the moves made this offseason, this one especially, doesn’t bode well for guys like Branch and Butler.

"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM

by Nick Andron on Sep 1, 2010 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

Locker locked

Well looks like we will be able to get Jake Locker now. I’m psyched for 2011.

by Seahawk MyQ on Sep 1, 2010 8:37 AM PDT reply actions  

John's next book:

“100 Things Every Seahawk Fan Should Know Before They Kill Themselves”

"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM

by Nick Andron on Sep 1, 2010 8:52 AM PDT reply actions   3 recs

Does anyone know details about the conditional language of the trade?

How likely is this pick to be a 4th rounder?

Off the cuff, I’d say likely due to the fact they’re starved for cornerbacks and Pistol is damned good.

"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM

by Nick Andron on Sep 1, 2010 8:58 AM PDT reply actions  

FUCK.

good thing Roy Lewis is apparently the next marcus trufant. thanks a bunch, schneider.

"Football players are temperamental. That's 90 percent temper and 10 percent mental." - Doug Plank

by Stevo's on Sep 1, 2010 9:04 AM PDT reply actions  

This move sucked but

why do people act like John Schneider just climbed off their mom and asked for a high five? So far the front office has been a huge plus in my book. Leon Washington and the potential of BMW alone outweigh the negatives of this trade.

Are we better than we were yesterday? No
Are we better than we were with Mora and Tim Ruskell? Yes

I liked Pistol , still do but from the reactions of some you’d think we’d just drafted Dan McGwire again.

Punks jump up to get beat down.

by Lo Pann on Sep 1, 2010 9:05 AM PDT reply actions  

Or rather, that's how I rad it at first...

I don’t actually think that, and I’m not ready to completely hate or trash the guy yet.
Just think he’s a sucker at trades.

by Kryten on Sep 1, 2010 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

Maybe still to early to tell with

Clipboard Jesus and Tapp but this one stunk up the joint.I still have faith.

Punks jump up to get beat down.

by Lo Pann on Sep 1, 2010 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

Scrutinize away

but don’t call for the firebombing of every Barnes and Nobles that sell " Win forever ’’

Punks jump up to get beat down.

by Lo Pann on Sep 1, 2010 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

Going off the deep end again...

…but I am right there with you.

Secondary talent comes at a premium, as does speed. To give away either – no matter how good your rookie is – seems to me extremely imprudent.

It’s a real shame, and there are countless scenarios that would lead the team to regret it, and very few that would make them look back and consider this a healthy move for the franchise.

by Hawksince77 on Sep 1, 2010 9:30 AM PDT reply actions  

Try 6 career INTs

3 for touchdowns, two on returns of 75 and 65 yards, and 3 forced fumbles.

by lemonverbena on Sep 1, 2010 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

oh and the kick returns.

oh and the 22 passes defended.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI

Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!

by jubelthebear on Sep 1, 2010 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

on Brett Favre in the snow

not to mention his ability to read and jump routes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDUh9yboqI

Your culture is primitive; yet so funky!

by jubelthebear on Sep 1, 2010 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

The larger idea is that our front office is making our team worse unnecessarily

If this was the end of it, that’d be fine. But this trade is an indicator of how this front office operates and that’s bad for the future.

by DrunkAmerican on Sep 1, 2010 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

If we use the same logic that people are using to lambast this trade...

does it come out looking not as horrible?

What seems to be the consensus is that “If they traded him because they knew they couldn’t afford to resign him for starting CB money, then he’s worth more than a 5th rounder.” So if you go buy the reasoning that you hate this trade because Wilson is a starting caliber CB, then the pick would presumably (hopefully?) be a 4th.

Assuming it’s a 4th, it doesn’t look that awful (Given the contract status). If you assume it’s a 5th then you aren’t valuing Wilson as the starting CB that was traded

Right?

by SgtSasquatch on Sep 1, 2010 9:35 AM PDT reply actions  

Jennings is a FA the same time Wilson is.

And they want to play more bump and run with their corners. Meaning they need physical corners. We’re fucked.

by Scruffy Lefty on Sep 1, 2010 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't like this move for several other reasons.

I dislike this move because it shifts a lot of responsibility on a recently exploded knee (WT3) and recently obliterated leg (Washington for KR’s).

However, The real outrage seems to be coming from them under valuing Wilson, and while there may be a grain of truth there, I believe he’s being over valued by the community here. If you look at other trades fringe starters have been going anywhere from fifth to fourth round picks. Ginn Jr for a fifth, Holmes for a 5th (He was suspended though). Sheldon Brown for a 4th, Reggie Brown for a 6th, Kherry Rhodes for a 4th, Bryan McFadden for a 5th.

A fringe starter/nickleback for a 4th/5th seems to fit in there.

by SgtSasquatch on Sep 1, 2010 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

Washington (probably) isn't going to return kicks; Tate is

I think that might explain why Tate hasn’t been seen on the 1st team offense as much.

by J.L. White on Sep 1, 2010 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

Probably slightly overvalued here.

I didn’t know he only had one year on his contract; Baltimore definitely would be wary of that.

Hell. I’m happy for Josh Wilson. Rooting for the Ravens in the AFC now. But when circumstance is the excuse over and over for poor trade return, the excuse becomes less valid. Don’t have to trade. The trades are understandable but we’re always the ones who give up unnecessary cost. The LenDale/Vickerson trade looks good. Leon Washington OK. Draft day trades are different, though. They’re quick, purely circumstantial, and on the micro level of assets that the implcations aren’t huge.

We are bad at trading, and we can’t stop.

by jacobstevens on Sep 1, 2010 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

I have advocated for seeing Carroll/Schneider's thinking in this move

But after reading articles from Baltimore’s perspective this morning, it really looks like our guys got screwed with their pants on. The Ravens were desperate for a corner. It really looks like we could/should have gotten more like a 3rd, or maybe a 5th and an active player (McGahee, or example).

Carroll:

Josh is a great kid and we love him and all of that, but this is a team that really came after him. It happened very quickly and a very competitive situation.

That sure makes it sound like they didn’t haggle much with a desperate buyer.

by lemonverbena on Sep 1, 2010 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

How many games would he be suspended

if we were to kidnap Jennings, pump him full of steroids and then lock him up in the VMAC for the year . . .

Four games next year? That is a win in my book.

by Spin Forever on Sep 1, 2010 9:40 AM PDT reply actions  

For reference, our last ten 5th-round picks:

Kam Chancellor
Owen Schmitt
Will Herring
David Kirtman
Jeb Huckeba
DJ Hackett
Chris Davis
Ryan Hannam
Rocky Bernard
All-Pro Alex Bannister

by waldo rojas on Sep 1, 2010 10:31 AM PDT reply actions  

Love the guy, love his developing awesomeness of play, but when he walks next year for demanding starter money as a nickelback/KR, nobody would have given it a second thought.

And we’d have got nothing in return. Also, trading away his salary plus restructuring Hill’s deal = long term cap room for a better player(s) somewhere else. Say, a good, young pair of Offensive Linemen?

Also, stockpiling lower round picks is how consistently good teams (NE, shittsburg, Green Bay) are able to stay on top. Either they draft a large enough quantity of lower round talent that a bunch of good players emerge on the cheap, leaving plenty of cap room to pay the stars, or they can package a bunch of them to a sucky team desperate for depth and score very high picks. Either way, it’s a go.

Keep in mind Schneider was instrumental in the development of that Super Bowl favorite Green Bay team we were so proud of not beating a couple weeks ago.

That said, I’d’ve much rather traded Jennings and JJ for Oher, Flacco and Suggs…and the Williams Wall. And Fitz, Chris Johnson and their next 9 first round picks.

by bleedshawkblue on Sep 1, 2010 10:35 AM PDT reply actions  

The point it he shouldn't even be a Nickelback

He should be ahead of Jennings on the roster rotation.

Also, stockpiling lower round picks is how consistently good teams (NE, shittsburg, Green Bay) are able to stay on top.

That’s because they have a ton of talented players. Seattle doesn’t.

Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.

by SSreporters on Sep 1, 2010 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

Easy for us to say, those of us who watch games from the stands or the couch

But the coaching staff sees these guys on the field every day. I tend to agree with you but we have to keep our own “knowledge” in perspective. Compared to the guys in there with the players in practice and in meetings, whose jobs it is to make these evaluations, we don’t know shit.

by lemonverbena on Sep 1, 2010 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

It doesn't make sense to me either

But it’s important to have some perspective. Watch Hard Knocks tonight and see how much we don’t know from our outside view.

by lemonverbena on Sep 1, 2010 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

We still got waaaaay too little for Wilson

Even if the coaches hated him and wanted him gone…..this trade still sucks.

by J.L. White on Sep 1, 2010 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

Why is this?
The point it he shouldn’t even be a Nickelback
He should be ahead of Jennings on the roster rotation.

The last three Seattle head-coaches haven’t agreed.
What makes your analysis of Wilson more accurate?

This comes off a bit snide in print, but it isn’t intended to. What are you seeing that the last three HC’s haven’t seen on the tape?

Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
PS: Screen name isn't what you think it means.

by iverson2169 on Sep 1, 2010 11:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

I trust my eyes, and I trust John Morgan

Wilson is a lot better than you give him credit for.

by J.L. White on Sep 2, 2010 1:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not giving him credit, or discrediting him for anything...

I’m saying that a potential 4th rounder for a backup CB is not so out of line that heads need to roll…

Also… what are you trusting your eyes with? We have seen Wilson succeeding as a nickel back. There must be reasons that 3 NFL head coaches didn’t start him.

Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
PS: Screen name isn't what you think it means.

by iverson2169 on Sep 2, 2010 1:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

If they'd even haggled for one stinking day...

The CB demand just went higher. Patriots starting cornerback Leigh Bodden has been placed on injured reserve.

by Jason_D on Sep 1, 2010 10:52 AM PDT reply actions  

I'd have done an immediate trade for Julian Edelman

You know, to have the “white guy WR” back on our roster.

Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.

by SSreporters on Sep 1, 2010 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

I just feel sick to my stomach. This is not how I wanted to start my day.

How can they say with a straight face that jennings does a comparable job to wilson? I want to know how they did their evaluation. They obviously didn’t look at the stat lines. They didn’t watch tape from previous years. They didn’t watch the preseason apparently. The only place he could have excelled was practice. Which obviously hasn’t translated to game time.

I would have felt a little bit better about the trade if it was at least a 3rd round pick. Baltimore is going to be good this year and they will probably be picking in the 20-30 range.

Does anyone know how jennings is playing the slot? I assume(read: Hope) that walter is going to be starting pretty soon and jennings will be moved to the slot.

by TS6 on Sep 1, 2010 10:55 AM PDT reply actions  

Schneider on Brock & Salk in a few minutes...

..for those interested rationale from the horse’s mouth .
(though i do not expect any actual answers and more likely platitudes, cliches, and frustration.)

by roddychops on Sep 1, 2010 11:22 AM PDT reply actions  

And Schneider said about Okung:

“We don’t know his tolerance for pain, he never really dealt with any injuries in college.”

That’s just blatantly wrong….he had the ankle injury and played through it.

by Woodinville_12thMan on Sep 1, 2010 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

Schneider is justifying the value of the pick

with examples of low-round players-made-good.
i still don’t get it. ravens came to him, desperate…and that’s the best he could get?
i just don’t buy it, but is that just the CW in the NFL?

(the CW being: overvalue late-round picks. and just claim that’s what the market will bear.)

by roddychops on Sep 1, 2010 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

Now that I have read all of the comments...

…it seems to me that it wasn’t Jennings that made the deal, but instead, Thurmond.

In other words, PC isn’t counting on Jennings being the starting CB – at least not for long – but instead, intends for Thurmond to start opposite Tru sooner rather than later. Thurmond is far closer to the proto-typical CB we know PC wants, and this is clearly a longer-term move than one focused purely on 2010.

Even if this is true, it doesn’t make it better. Wilson makes his 2010 team a better team – and that could have been the Seahawks. To make it worthwhile for the franchise, a conditional 2/3 2011 pick would have been more appropriate than a 4/5, IMO.

by Hawksince77 on Sep 1, 2010 11:55 AM PDT reply actions  

Thurmond is recovering from injury and hasn't played a single snap yet

I can get fans being over-excited for him but the FO just trusting in him as a future starter without him having played a meaningful snap in his life is ridiculous.

by Thomas Beekers on Sep 1, 2010 9:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

It just occurred to me

That had the Seahawks hung onto Wilson and then let him walk in free agency… depending on the value of the contract he signed with another team, they could’ve ended up with a 5th (maybe 6th) round compensatory pick.

So even if they couldn’t resign him, they’d get his contract year and a comparable draft pick to the one they just traded him away for because “that’s market value”. I’m re-annoyed.

by busplunger on Sep 1, 2010 2:46 PM PDT reply actions  

Good points.

BUT… yes, we’d get him in a contract year… but if he’s not really in the FO’s long term plans, keeping him here would only stifle the development and evaluation of the other corners.

Just a caveat.

by djafrot on Sep 1, 2010 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

I was looking at this in terms of asset value

Without regard to whether he fits into the team’s plans, or whether he’s blocking a younger player. Certainly things like roster constraints and “building for the future” are real-world complicating factors, but I was just musing about market value. And the NFL compensatory pick system would probably value him around the 5th round* if he has a decent season this year, and that’s a more objective measuring stick than trying to make guesses about what kind of pick we think the market should have supplied.

Looking at it this way: the Ravens just traded a 5th-rounder for a guy who, if he leaves after the season, will net them a 5th-round pick as compensation. That sounds like a pretty sweet rental for them.

*The Packers got a 5th-round pick for losing Colin Cole, so I don’t think a 5th is unrealistic.

by busplunger on Sep 1, 2010 9:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm pretty sure you are being generous with what we would get

It comes from an overall amount of talent leaving and coming. If they sign a bunch of other free agents, like a DE or two, then we get nothing.

by stufr on Sep 1, 2010 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

I get that

Your free agents out are cancelled by your free agents in. So it’s likely they don’t get the actual, tangible 5th round pick. But the point still stands: that’s what the compensatory pick is worth in a vacuum.

If Josh Wilson is a $5 winning scratch ticket and I buy three more $1 tickets that all lose, that doesn’t change the value of my $5 ticket just because I ended up with only $2 in my pocket. I came out ahead because I had a ticket worth $5. Okay, it’s not a perfect analogy since if you sign free agents, you don’t lose your own picks (like in baseball with Type A free agents), so in actuality it’s a fluctuation between positive and neutral. But the point is, you’d be adding Wilson to the positive side of the ledger at the value of a pick in rounds 5-6, depending on the kind of deal he signs.

by busplunger on Sep 1, 2010 9:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Negative

Cause now we cashed in the 5 dollar ticket for 5 actual dollars. Now we may trade around some other tickets that may amount to nothing, but no matter what we have that 5 dollars.

by stufr on Sep 2, 2010 4:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

Lofa, Mebane, and Carlson are all starters.

This is a big difference.

Also, at the risk of appearing to be an appeal to authority argument, why is it that Holmgren, Mora Jr., and now Carroll all felt it necessary to start Jennings over Wilson? I’m not offering proof of anything here… rather asking the question. Why?

Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
PS: Screen name isn't what you think it means.

by iverson2169 on Sep 1, 2010 11:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not using an appeal to authority argument here....

What I’m saying is that Homgren not starting him isn’t conclusive.
Mora Jr. not starting him isn’t conclusive.
Carroll not starting him isnt conclusive.

BUT

All three not starting Wilson has to mean SOMETHING.

Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
PS: Screen name isn't what you think it means.

by iverson2169 on Sep 2, 2010 1:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

I want to add, that although any one (or all) of these NFL head coaches does not constitute proof of anything...

It most certainly IS inductive evidence, and can be treated as such. I will be very very curious to see where Wilson ends up on Baltimore’s depth chart. My guess is he will fill the nickel role there as well.

If so…

That would make 4 out of 4 NFL head coaches that felt he was a backup (NB) type of player. If this pans out to be the case, do we still feel the trade is out of line for a backup CB?

Bring Your Game, Leave Your Name.
PS: Screen name isn't what you think it means.

by iverson2169 on Sep 2, 2010 1:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

Ozzie stated he hopes Wilson is a week one starter

He will be if he doesn’t take too long to absorb the system, which is pretty different from ours.

Where he’ll go once their guy returns from injury is another question, but presumably backup.

by Thomas Beekers on Sep 2, 2010 2:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

Wilson is the second best corner back on the team and earned the majority of playing time the past few years.

Whether he slid over the slot in nickel packages or got to run out onto the field with the starters before the game doesn’t change that.

by Nate Dogg on Sep 2, 2010 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

Let's take a look at who actually started then

2007: Jennings 15, Wilson 0
2008: Jennings 6, Wilson 12
2009: Jennings 7, Wilson 12

(Jennings, Wilson)

So Wilson didn’t start his rookie year, then started almost every game in which he was healthy over the next two years. (Jennings started two games his rookie year, 2006.)

Based on those numbers, I think it’s fair to say that Pete Carroll is the odd man out in terms of preferring Kelly Jennings to Josh Wilson. To the prior two coaches, Josh Wilson was the starter.

by busplunger on Sep 2, 2010 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think this trade shows

The FO thinks that Thurmond will be the starter going forward.

by stufr on Sep 2, 2010 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

Darrell Green turned out alright

“Josh Wilson is so fucking short, it’s a wonder he was drafted at all, because no corner within an inch of Wilson’s height has ever succeeded in the NFL.

EVER.

At anything."

by Skinsmaniac on Sep 3, 2010 12:39 PM PDT reply actions  

It was complete sarcasm, a scathing indictment at what the perception seems to be,

that Seattle moved Wilson because Schneider comes from the Ron Wolf “CBs need to be 5’11” or taller" school. We completely agree with you that it’s stupid.

by jacobstevens on Sep 3, 2010 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

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Small BrianL

Avatar_small Benne

Olympiabeer_small Tyler Jorgensen

Hatersgonnahate_small Thomas Beekers

Profilepic_small DJ C-Raig

897267_o_small Kenneth Arthur

Halloween_mobster_small Jacson Bevens

Photo__1__small Charlie Todaro

Staff Writers

Small Joshua Kasparek

Mail Matt Erickson

Davis_small Davis Hsu

Profile2_small Rob Staton

208114_505637750968_23709013_30160241_9483_n_small Scott Enyeart

Elephant_pink_clothes_small Chris Sully

Seattle_seahawk_white_1600_reasonably_small_small Derek Stephens

Osprey1_small Ben Harbaugh

Easleystreet2_small ChadDavis45

Bu_fb_2_small Daniel Hill