Broncos K.O. Seahawks in Second Quarter
This ugly series by the Broncos proved to be the game-winning drive. Blech.
I only have the stomach for notes.
- Denver only ran for 20 yards on this drive, but it was a big part of the drive's success. Denver had five successful runs and converted two first downs on the ground. The 49ers ignored the Leo, or at least didn't specifically attack it. Denver attacked it mercilessly.
- First run: Daniel Graham blocks out Chris Clemons and that allows Ryan Clady to run into the second level and block David Hawthorne. Knowshon Moreno runs right in front of Clemons and Clemons is able to disengage and tackle, but only after five.
- Second run: Daniel Graham blocks out Chris Clemons and that allows Russ Hochstein to run into the second level and block David Hawthorne. Earl Thomas and Marcus Trufant combine to stop Moreno after four. Defensive backs making run stops, that's typically bad.
- Third run: Converted because where the ball is spotted. Was it a good spot? I don't know. I do not believe the officials really know where the ball was when Correll Buckhalter was tackled.
- Daniels blocks Raheem Brock, Hochstein pulls left, but, for whatever reason, Moreno decides to cut back right and towards the Seahawks strong side. Red Bryant closes the hole by blasting free of Dan Gronkowski and Tatupu evades Hochstein to shoot across the backfield and tackle Moreno for no gain.
- Exceptional play by Aaron Curry: Curry sprints around Gronkowski, around right end and flies into the backfield. He vaults Moreno and closes on Kyle Orton. Orton looks left, finds Graham disengaging from Brock, and passes. Graham receives but is immediately swarmed by Blue. Seahawks surround Graham, but it's Curry, from right end, around Gronkowski, over Moreno, from right of Orton, that closes and tackles Graham for a loss of four.
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Are you a bad Portlander then?
And that must make for some painful letdowns. I just learned to lower my expectations. My 49er friend told me to just be happy with First Down, any thing else is a gift. He would know.
Maybe so.
Any attitude but optimism seems self-defeating. Those who fear they will suffer already suffer what they fear.
I've always found myself to be pessimistically optimistic.
I always have that gut feeling things are going to break right for us, but it feels like there is a cloud of doom on the horizon. Makes for a perpetually disappointing dichotomy. I sometimes think I’m a shitty fan because of it.
I'm generally pessimistic
I want to become optimistic but I don’t think I can do it….
Ba-doom-tish
Mo Johnston finally fired. Let the house cleaning and road to success begin.
Boom! with the famous quote
I’m a blast at parties.
Truly though, I think optimism is optimal strategy, even from a game theory perspective. Be optimistic, don’t wallow in defeat and most of the time, you’re happy.
With martini in hand, you let everyone else know how much smarter you are than them.
Girlfriend hates it when I freely pass out knowledge at parties.
Oh yeah, nothing refines your ability to shell-out bullshit like being a CSR.
I’m fucking Nick Naylor at work/everywhere.
IPD simulations don't bear that out.
Optimism in round 1, tit-for-tat after that is the most successful. Realism-but-all-things-being-equal-optimism wins the day.
inside of a dog it's too dark to read.
I was thinking more along these lines (and not investing)
Optimism
Before the event: Happy
Win: Happy
Loss: Unhappy
Pessimism
Before the event: Unhappy
Win: Happy
Loss: Unhappy
Because the offense played very well on the road.
If Hass had the zip, his INTs are great passes, great plays. He played very well but the zip hamstrung him and the game and possibly the season. But wow! The offense executed well, and good plays were called.
by jacobstevens on Sep 24, 2010 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Is the problem with Clemons/Brock?
Is the problem with the concept Leo position? Or is the problem with Bryant making the Leo spot such an obvious target?
Well, I hope that if we had an elite pass-rusher at Leo
It wouldn’t be so bad. Someone like Ware or Matthews.
I miss Nick Reed.
Is Brook related? Brook is a wimpy name compared to Nick.
Mo Johnston finally fired. Let the house cleaning and road to success begin.
The problem is, as succinctly as I can put it
Think of a 3-4. Why does it work, because pass rush is unpredictable. The down linemen control gaps, stuff the run and create blitz lanes. So, between the three down linemen and the four linebackers, you have specialist that are capable of stuffing the run and rushing the passer, but though the linemen are always controlling, any linebacker can rush or stuff. It’s balanced and yet variable.
Now, think of Seattle’s 4-3. The pass rush is mostly generated from the four down linemen. It’s predictable, but that is not in of itself enough to completely undermine it. Now, among those four down linemen, turn one end into a run stuffer and the other into a pure pass rusher. Red Bryant is not going to regularly rush the passer and Clemons is not going to regularly stuff the run. It’s now even more predictable and easy to scheme against. You account for Clemons on passing downs. You run at Clemons, or account for Clemons with a tight end and pull a linemen, on running downs.
So, a Leo 4-3 is both unbalanced and predictable.
It doesn't feel like adding an elite pass rusher to the Leo spot would really solve the problem
Because the dynamic you outlined still exists. It kills me to say this but if I’ve read the situation correctly, there’s only two real options…
1) Replace the Leo with another DE that can stuff the run. Ideally that DE could still provide some pressure but it would almost inevitably be a downgrade in that respect (Oye).
2) Trade Red Bryant and replace him with a similarly undersized DE that can rush the passer. Thus we gain a pass rush but we maybe sacrifice our potentially dominant run D.
I don’t know which would be better. Both seem depressing in their own way.
by Hawkhammer19 on Sep 23, 2010 6:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, an elite end will not be as weak against the run
and could be good enough to make enough plays. In this configuration, Seattle has two extreme types: a former situational pass rusher playing end and a former defensive tackle playing end, so it’s especially predictable and unbalanced.
I don’t like the scheme, but talent has a way of fixing almost anything. Ideally, if Seattle wants a 3-4 style line, it would run a 3-4 style system, maybe a gapping, attacking system like Wade Philips runs that decentralizes the pass rush.
Can Mebane play 5-tech if we went to a 3-4?
Robert Quinn seems like the only DE in this class elite enough get it done as a Leo. Adrian Clayborn would definitely make our run defense pretty boss but could he rush the passer enough to make it work?
by Hawkhammer19 on Sep 23, 2010 6:30 PM PDT up reply actions
That's kinda what I thought.
My desire for Robert Quinn is rapidly surpassing my desire for Jake Locker lol.
by Hawkhammer19 on Sep 23, 2010 6:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Mallet surpassed my desire for Locker awhile ago. Along with Luck...and Ponder...and *gulp/gag/puke* Foles.
Just kidding on Foles…and Ponder.
Not for our system.
Locker’s a perfect fit.
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
So, am I the only one that has been secretly hoping for the LEO to just utterly get picked apart by Offenses
So they are forced to change it? Would that force them to? I don’t think so.
Something's got to break between Quinn's line and Bradley's desire to create pressure with his front four.
Seriously.
It’s a 3-4 line right? I swear to God it is….but wait, it’s running the Tampa 2? I sometimes want to pull my hair out.
Yeah, and we solved that problem by adding Clemons.
It was almost like, damn, Chris Clemons, I don’t hate you but who’s fool idea is it to entrust you with the nine-tenths of the pass rush? Didn’t we try this last year with Darryl Tapp and Patrick Kerney?
Or drafted Calais, or just let Quinn build a 3-4 already, Or maximize Mebane's potential with a bad ass non-Tampa 2 4-3.
I hate it too.
Unless you have Derrick Brooks in his prime, not to mention Warren Sapp and Ronde Barber
I don't understand it, I really do not.
Oh, I get the LEO conceptually, but it just seems so obviously and fundamentally flawed, that how did they think this would not get exploited? Clemons had to have been a last minute tap to be starter right? For my sanity I need to believe they wanted Brandon Graham. How do you mask the giant neon sign that points to your all but designated pass-rusher?
Tatupu lands a late hit.
I seem to recall being upset by the late hit call (assuming this is the same play I’m remembering). Wasn’t the offensive player rolling over the tackler when Tatupu struck? During the replay I didn’t see the offensive player down at any point. Grumpy-me wanted to tell the ref “if the whistle hadn’t been blown yet, and the offensive player wasn’t down, how was that hit late?!?!?!”
You are correct.
Tru tackled Thomas so that Thomas was on top of Tru’s body and had not contacted the turf. Tatupu struck him while he was still on Trufant’s body, and so it was very questionable to say the least.
You wouldn't say that the ball was uncatchable?
That’s why I didn’t think it was PI. Johnston didn’t seem to think so either.
The pass was definitely catchable.
And Johnston said he it was clear PI and that Babineaux better be careful or he’s going to provoke another flag.
"Very questionable" in the sense that it was a legal tackle and not a late hit. Grumble-grumble-grumble...
Although to be fair, I’d have to rewatch the play to see if I could tell exactly when the whistle blew.
by John Edwards on Sep 23, 2010 8:22 PM PDT up reply actions
I just dislike how these penalties ignore the rules of physics and on these kinds, the laws of momentum.
No, but I'm talking about when they penalize players after they start their leap before the whistle blows.
Yeah
Officials screw up. As long as they are impartial, what can we do? Robots won’t work for football.
Way to break Robby Robot's tin heart, John.

by John Edwards on Sep 23, 2010 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I remember this being announced
and Menefee’s fake enthusiasm.
by John Morgan on Sep 23, 2010 10:13 PM PDT up reply actions
If I could put this simply you're not going to scheme crap into something competitive.
by Joshua Kasparek on Sep 23, 2010 6:42 PM PDT reply actions
Again, as I said, you aren't going to scheme crap into something competitive.
No Schemes could make Daryl Tapp play like his 255 college weight while being 280 and lacking most of the speed because of that weight. No amount of scheming is going to turn Red Bryant into John Randle. You aren’t going to Scheme Aaron Curry into someone who plays the pass rush with fluid control and precision. Shemes may give teams some pause but they will still beat you if you can’t beat them up front it’s that simple. Ask Cleavland how their schemes work without the talent Kansas City has. If getting beat and winning was a easy or even a big part to do with scheme and not talent, why would bad teams need considerations for the first part of the NFL draft.?
by Joshua Kasparek on Sep 23, 2010 7:20 PM PDT up reply actions
So, because Seattle has crappy talent, the coaching staff should not be held accountable for obvious scheme failures?
I'm saying it's hard to judge a scheme as absolutely horrible predictable or wrong.
When you get no pass rush. It’s that simple and by the way before you roll your eyes everyone. Everyone looks at Baltimore as the pinnacle of well executed defense. However, Matt hung 5 TDs on one of the leagues top 5 defenses the last decade in 2003 ON THE ROAD. 5TDs Would you say their schemes were bad or poorly executed or might you give a little credit to Seattle’s O-line and receivers? Now, for the love of god, I’m not saying every call is right nor am I saying that we need not take a look at scheme but sweet merciful christ, give it more than two games before we say the entire scheme can’t possibly work at all, or isn’t at least the best scheme given the current players.
by Joshua Kasparek on Sep 23, 2010 8:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Your tirades are getting old.
If you have a meaningful argument to make, please, make it, support it, but the “sweet merciful christ” and straw man fallacies add nothing.
so all you took away from that was "Sweet merciful Christ" You put worse sarcasm in your articles
Thanks for devaluing my entire point by acting like that’s all I said.
by Joshua Kasparek on Sep 23, 2010 8:46 PM PDT up reply actions
You also pointed out that Hasselbeck once threw for five touchdowns against a franchise with a good reputation for defense.
Did he throw for those 5 touchdowns because the scheme was bad?
Come on John you cannot see the point I’m making here?
by Joshua Kasparek on Sep 23, 2010 8:51 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not even sure how you can make the comparison
The scheme worked for 10 games and because Hasselbeck had a good game it doesn’t? Your point is filled with holes and it’s straying away from the original purpose of the article.
Mo Johnston finally fired. Let the house cleaning and road to success begin.
No, I mean to say that Hasselbeck had a good game
And the ravens had a bad game. It doesn’t mean the ravens needed to throw away what they knew or what worked for them.
by Joshua Kasparek on Sep 23, 2010 8:58 PM PDT up reply actions
I still don't get it.
You’re comparing one of the best defenses in football having one bad game to a struggling defense (it’s 2nd under Bradley) and saying that because the Ravens had one bad game the Seahawks shouldn’t give up on this current scheme?
Is there some sort of hidden appeal to authority thing (which you have displayed in the past)?
Mo Johnston finally fired. Let the house cleaning and road to success begin.
No, I'm saying that schemes can have bad days SS
I’m not saying that Seattle has a great defense. that would be super silly, but I’m saying if next week the defense plays the chargers real tough or we win, is the scheme bad then?
In didn’t struggle against the niners, it did against the broncos. I’m saying, please wait before we throw this all out the window.
by Joshua Kasparek on Sep 23, 2010 9:33 PM PDT up reply actions
I do not understand the point you are making, honestly.
I can’t remember exactly how Hasselbeck scored five touchdowns, but taking one example and attempting to make a rule from it is illogical.
You chose to interpret his very reasonable comment that way.
How else was he supposed to say “this particular snippet of your comment was detracting in addition to this, this this, and this”?
Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...
maybe the common ground would be to say
what we’ve seen from the d-scheme as of yet has not shown enough to prove it would be consistently effective.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCK7njbgDO8
Prepare for scare
"It's always a bad play when the other team scores." - John Madden
by jubelthebear on Sep 24, 2010 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Is it possible that the scheme is part of the reason this team can't generate pass rush?
Mo Johnston finally fired. Let the house cleaning and road to success begin.
So you think these schemes (2 man rush!) could work if we had better talent?
Mo Johnston finally fired. Let the house cleaning and road to success begin.
That's a play call that isn't a scheme.
by Joshua Kasparek on Sep 23, 2010 8:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Uhhhhh what do you think goes behind that play call?
A scheme!
Mo Johnston finally fired. Let the house cleaning and road to success begin.
In terms of 3rd down play calling it could use work
But Pete Carroll is probably going to try and get many different looks in there on 3rd downs as he can so he can start figuring out what sticks. As I posted in another thread Pete admitted to Over-Scheming his defense for third down (which makes my post above seem stupid now.)
by Joshua Kasparek on Sep 23, 2010 9:00 PM PDT reply actions
Are you arguing with anything in particular
Or do you reflexively disagree when I criticize a coaching decision? Because, if you disagree about my arguments against the Leo position or the Seahawks reliance on zones, I would be interested in reading it.
Here is my question...or questions
Did Bradley and Carroll overthink this game? By assuming that Orton would not be able to figure out our zones it seems like they put too much pressure on the DB’s and LB’s. Would you say that great defenses impose their strengths as opposed to trying to adapt too much to what they presume are the strengths of the offenses? Feel free to mock this if it makes no sense.
I don't know if they overthought this game
If anything, they didn’t foresee how easily the defense might fall apart.
The problem is, as I see it, the Seahawks are balancing two aspects of their defense: a desire to limit long gains and a desire to force turnovers. The method seems to be, the only sure way to force turnovers is by forcing an offense to pick down the field, with lots of plays and few big plays. The ancillary methods are, forcing bad down and distance and forcing quarterbacks into mistakes through pressure.
The bend but don’t break aspect is mostly working. Seattle has not allowed a lot of long gains, and opponents are picking their way down the field instead of popping off with long runs and long throws.
The cashing in aspect, that which is reliant on bad down and distance and pressure, is not working, or did not against the Broncos. Seattle did force unfavorable down and distance through stuffing the run, but on obvious passing downs, the Seahawks could not generate pressure and the zones broke down.
Now, that shouldn’t be too surprising. Seattle is very dependent on Chris Clemons for pressure, and at the same time, they often willingly reduced their potential for pressure by dropping extra players. So, between a defense that is willing to allow completions, and a defense that could not cash in when it does force poor down and distance, the Seahawks were worked over.
How is that fixed? Well, upgrading personnel is an obvious possibility, but that’s not possible now, and, of course, every team tries to upgrade personnel, it’s not as easy as wanting to. The other way, the way Dick Lebeau does and Jim Johnson, RIP, did, is disguise the pass rush so that a team can create pressure without the very best possible personnel.
I am not a defensive coordinator and I do not pretend that accomplishing what the very best of their generation accomplished is as easy as saying it or wanting it, but at the same time, figuring out what most definitely doesn’t work, like the two man rush with Mebane spying or whatever, is the only way the Seahawks are going to improve.
Can Balmer play D-end opposite Clemons. I haven't seen what Balmer looks like as a D-end.
by Joshua Kasparek on Sep 23, 2010 9:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Would he have the speed to be an edge rusher?
What about Matching Curry and Clemons on the same side in pass rushing? Seems their combined speed would be interesting at best.
by Joshua Kasparek on Sep 23, 2010 9:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Balmer can not be a speed rusher.
You won’t see Curry and Clemons sharing a side. The problem with Curry is, he’s fast, but he doesn’t turn a corner. Since the day he was draft, I have pined for him to play some ILB and run gut blitzes. Watching him run himself out of pass rush after pass rush is infuriating.
I know, trust me.
Sometimes I think man, Brian Russell would have at least created a good stiff wind while missing the QB to give the man pause before throwing the touchdown.
by Joshua Kasparek on Sep 23, 2010 9:51 PM PDT up reply actions
You know what just occured to me?
Does anyone know just who the hell is a true End on this team?
EJ Wilson? Is that it?
by Joshua Kasparek on Sep 23, 2010 9:56 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm sorry about my rants on your mebane posts
This is just bad. How could we come into this season and have no true defensive ends minus the tapp trade. How do you then trade LoJack so you have no true body type DE for the 4-3?
That’s staring me right in the face. Look, I get if you feel LoJack isn’t an effort guy, but sometimes your depth and the collection of players just tell you for now to keep a guy here or there. UGH!
by Joshua Kasparek on Sep 23, 2010 10:13 PM PDT up reply actions
I think it happens because the Seahawks thought they could stuff the run and then scheme in pass rush.
And it hasn’t happened. For one, Curry has not made a big leap as a pass rusher, and Carroll and Mora before him seem like they are counting on Curry breaking out.
Everything works on a chalk board, and every coach can point to execution and talent as the reason their systems fail, and that’s somewhat true, but a good coach makes the best out of what they have, and at least last week, I do not believe Carroll, Bradley and Quinn did that.
by John Morgan on Sep 23, 2010 10:18 PM PDT up reply actions
"What they have" was in flux up to and during Week 1
This is a rebuilding year.
by lemonverbena on Sep 24, 2010 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Interesting you say that, John
I’ve always thought Curry would be an excellent ILB in more of a traditional 3-4 scheme. Let him use him downhill tackling and straightline to it’s fullest effect not, as you pointed out, have him run himself out of pressure while trying to rush the passer.
"I call the big one Bitey."-Homer J. Simpson
by Willie Mays Haze on Sep 24, 2010 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions
Well said
I would hope that they would learn from this last game. Common sense would say that giving an NFL QB, that is at all worth his salt, that much time is a bad idea. He is going to find a hole. I am surprised that Bradley hasn’t shown more exotic blitzes, I thought that was supposed to be one of his forte’s
Nah
Monte Kiffin defenses like to generate pressure with their base personnel. My fear, and it’s been my fear since we went through this nonsense last year with Cory Redding, is that Dan Quinn has constructed a 3-4 line and the Seahawks are attempting to run a Tampa 2 (broadly) through it.
That sounds like a bad idea.
On Eddie Royals TD, it looked like Brock was supposed to have middle coverage, that would seem to be a losing proposition
I always though it was a bad idea, but, who knows, maybe I'm missing some crucial detail.
Even the best very best pass rushers in the league are coupled with other great pass rushers. The Cowboys do not depend on DeMarcus Ware for all of their pass rush, but other than Brandon Mebane, the Seahawks are almost entirely reliant on Clemons/Brock/Davis for their pass rush. I can’t comprehend how that can work.
No.
Seattle does not have exceptional talent, but the front seven, as constructed and now used, is never going to make a great defense. If Seattle had Jared Allen playing Leo, it would still have Cole at nose and Bryant at end. It would still be counting on Allen-Mebane-Cole-Bryant to generate the bulk of its pressure.
A defense can not depend on one player for most of its pass rush. Allen would help, but opponents can still pop him with a tight end or chip him with a back or call max protect. The Seahawks need more pass rushers. Look at the Vikings. They have Allen, and then they Pat Williams, Ray Edwards and Kevin Williams. Every single one of those guys generate pressure. That is how you make a great defense, wring pass rush out of as many positions as possible.
by John Morgan on Sep 23, 2010 10:13 PM PDT up reply actions
I will say this though
Playing a hot ass game in Denver is exceptionally tough for a bunch of big bruisers. The Seahawks will look better in elements.
by John Morgan on Sep 23, 2010 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions
And you never think elevation will affect you nearly as bad as it does.
At least that has been my experience.
as I said in a previous post
I’’m pretty sure Bates was sayin in his head after the 2nd int “why the *%&#@ are we still throwing under… isn’t this mile high!?!”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCK7njbgDO8
Prepare for scare
"It's always a bad play when the other team scores." - John Madden
by jubelthebear on Sep 24, 2010 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Is there really an alternative to the Leo?
I had thought that the reason we have a Leo position in the first place was because PC wanted to institute a pure 3-4 but didn’t have the personnel for it. So he made up a sort-of kind-of hybrid to add the extra man on the front line for pass rushing that can double as a LB when necessary. If that logic holds, would instituting a pure 3-4 now be any better? The three-man pass rush wasn’t working at all, from what I could tell, so how would that be any better. Other than moving back to the 4-3 (which I don’t see the need for, since our pass rush is already weak and it takes away an extra man from coverage), what else can be done to help add a better pass rush to a 3-4 defense with the personnel we have?
No way dude!
Play the rest on the road this year and toughen the team up.
by Joshua Kasparek on Sep 23, 2010 9:29 PM PDT up reply actions
I know but oh man
What if in the remaining 14 games the team found a pass rush on the road. Could you imagine Qwest?
Oh man my heart aches just wishing.
by Joshua Kasparek on Sep 23, 2010 9:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Seattle is running a 4-3
It uses 4-3 concepts and, typically, four down linemen and three linebackers. Clemons rarely drops into coverage.
The alternative to the Leo is to dedicate fewer players to stuffing the run and emphasize personnel that can rush the passer. Really, if Seattle was running something like a 3-4, that would be a boost, because someone other than Clemons/Brock/Davis would be entrusted to rush the passer.
That would work for me
3-4 with Curry on the inside with Tatupu would be great. That way he could rove and overpursue to his hearts content and Tatupu could clean up any mistakes.
The 3-4 defense rarely ever sends only 3 guys
The great thing about it though, is that fourth guy can be anybody and strike from any of the other positions, any linebacker, safety, or cornerback, though mostly that extra guy will be the rush linebacker (like DeMarcus Ware is for the Cowboys).
by B.B.Finnegan on Sep 24, 2010 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions
I freely willing to admit I could have missed a point here.
I’m not trying to say anything about what you posted as wrong. I’m just trying to consider all these outside details. I’m trying to get feel for what our team lacks personnel wise. I’m trying to get a feel for who’s having success and who isn’t. I don’t know if the entire scheme bothers you or 3rd down scheme, but even so, being two games in it just felt like a limited scope and I don’t want to give up on it yet. I want to take more looks at it before I say it won’t work.
However, I think I’ve discovered why these arguments keep happening and I have to remember that you’re posting an opinion with good solid facts, sometimes I just take tone of sarcasm too hard and I come in with a degree of anger about what you posted. I mean the quips like ‘Zone defense everybody’ it really just rubs me the wrong way. So for me then I come in and I want to fight about it because it comes off to me like “I’m John Morgan and even I know this sucks” So in the future I just won’t post in these types of articles unless I’m absolutely sure of what I can counter with, and that I can do it respectfully because that’s how I’d like to participate here. I don’t want you to change your style because I have a quick temper. This won’t happen again.
by Joshua Kasparek on Sep 23, 2010 9:22 PM PDT reply actions
I noticed that when I hover my mouse over the picture, it says "Failure to execute."
I thought that summed it up pretty well.
John if you could pick anyone in the league to play Leo for the Hawks in this scheme who would it be?
Ignoring age and contract, Julius Peppers would be pretty awesome
Given those same considerations, a younger Julian Peterson is almost ideal.
by John Morgan on Sep 24, 2010 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions

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