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Around SBN: Knicks Beat Lakers With Familiar Strategy

Expiring Assets

Part of the offseaon process is clearly the idea of moving players with expiring contracts. 

Guys like Rob Sims, Josh Wilson, and Tapp were FG favorites but they were also only under team control for one more year.  As part of a calculated rebuild, the front office apparently decided that the 2010 season of each of these guys is worth less than the value of a future draft pick.  Q/PM don't seem to have any interest in winning this year, just clearing out the bad contracts and getting some future value in exchange for wins this year.

I don't think I like the strategy, and they haven't stuck to it in every case, but I can at least appreciate that there is some logic behind ditching the 2010 seasons of good, valuable, young players in exchange for mid/late round picks going forward.

The one move that just does not fit with this plan is the Charlie Whitehurst trade.  Giving up a 3rd round pick for two seasons of CW is the opposite of a lot of these moves.  Without that trade, this offseason would be a pretty constant story of trading expiring assets and cutting bad contracts.  When you look at the Whitehurst trade and VJax rumors in the mix with everything else it shows signs that the front office either didn't have a plan when the offseason started, or has dramatically changed course. 

Thoughts?

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I think the players they got rid of are ones they'd decided against keeping beyond this year

And so they got what they could while they still could get something out of them. Hopefully that bodes real well for Mebane. And I think it does. They could easily have traded him.

And this being a rebuilding year, why keep someone like Housh, who’s just going to take 70-90 catches away from a young player they’d like to give those chances to? You know what you’re getting in Housh, but not in Williams (or Tate or Butler), so give those balls to Williams and if he proves himself, sign him long term. But keeping Housh the development of the other players. I’m sure they thought of getting rid of Branch too, but I think they like his speed.

Whitehurst makes sense because it’s the most important position on the team. I like that they made the effort even if it doesn’t pan out. That’s a risk worth taking.

by B.B.Finnegan on Sep 7, 2010 11:13 AM PDT reply actions  

Exactly why I'm not upset about the Housh cut

it would have been nice to get something back for him, but with his contract there’s no way anyone would take him. Probably makes our team worse this year, but let’s us know what we have and if we need to pick up receivers next off-season or extend the contracts of the ones we have. And the on field experience the younger guys are gaining from Housh not being there is very valuable for future seasons

by Mpjohns3 on Sep 8, 2010 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well said!

Plus you have to remember Sims didn’t fit the offense scheme and Tapp (while I loved him) is nothing more than a backup. Same goes for Jackson so they ALL became expendable. The only move I haven’t liked so far was trading Wilson. But after I got over my heartache I realized he was never going to be a starter on this team and would only start due to an injury. So why not trade him for a 4th rd (wish it was a 3rd) pick and give the younger guys the experience.

by cthunder on Sep 7, 2010 11:28 AM PDT reply actions  

Exchange man cover, with press man cover and you'll be there.

Right or wrong, that’s where the interesting marriage of GB DB’s and Carroll’s schemes have met. Bigger taller CBs that can throw WRs off of their routes, buying hesitation from QBs for the pass rush seems to be making it’s way to Seattle.

by cashless on Sep 7, 2010 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not to open this can of worms again...

but saying Wilson was “never going to be a starter” is folly because he has already BEEN a starter. More often in the last couple of years than he has backed someone else up.

Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...

by Cheddar28 on Sep 7, 2010 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

True

But mainly due to injury and having no choice in the matter.

by cthunder on Sep 7, 2010 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

But he was a starter on a very weak (except Trufant) secondary

and doesn’t fit the mold of what the Hawks are looking for in a starting corner. And for the future, he would probably only start due to injury

by Mpjohns3 on Sep 8, 2010 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

All true statements.

I just don’t think it’s fair to call Josh “not a starter”. The guy started. He played well (albeit not magnificently). Give him the credit.

Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...

by Cheddar28 on Sep 8, 2010 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

My thought is, how can a team afford to weigh length of contract so substantially?

We’ve brought a new meaning to the term roster churn, but you have dozens of players under contract, the range of contracts signed is about 1 to 6 years, so you are almost always going to have a couple handfuls of guys who are coming up on the end of their contract. You’re not going to stop it.

Losing some players for no compensation beyond their factoring in compensatory pick calculations is undesirable, but any approach to mitigating the risk of it inherently constitutes some forsaking of talent.

Besides, do you really gain so much by liquefying expiring assets? Length of contract is a factor in how your trading partners value your players. And you miss out on the phenomenon that is “contract year.”

It’s futile. It’s questionable. I don’t like it. I can understand considering length of contract, that’s smart. Making an effort to mitigate it, that’s smart. But the consequences of going far out of your way to avoid it renders about a negligible result in value, and can backfire and blow up big. I don’t like it.

by jacobstevens on Sep 7, 2010 11:40 AM PDT reply actions  

This is obviously not a viable long-term strategy

Its a strategy for 2010 – this season isn’t about winning games, so why keep someone around to contribute to a futile season when you can get more value in the future?

by miracle_max on Sep 7, 2010 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

In the micro, my concerns remain applicable.

Can you get more value? Is this season futile? Your point is resting on some iffy assumptions.

by jacobstevens on Sep 7, 2010 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Q/PM are more likely to get more value

because they value different manifestations of talent. They have ideals about what kind of player they want at every position. Those ideals vary in their narrowness. But they’re setting up this team to be a squad with just the right kind of players to execute the way they want to play.

Now, I myself used to think it was stupid to adjust talent to scheme rather than scheme to talent because that way you can maximize the value of your existing talent and thus your resources. I’m okay with the former strategy, however, because Q/PM are doing all that’s possible in that regard: Liquefying talent, switching positions (Bryant), letting young players develop. They’re All In in other words.

This season isn’t futile because they’re implementing and nurturing young talent, but it is going to suffer because the recently-departed talent will remain unused….liquid.

Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...

by Cheddar28 on Sep 7, 2010 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

The Frustrating Thing

Is that they said they were just trying to “re-tool” and were still trying to compete.
Many of us wanted a rebuild but since they fed us these lies we were lead to believe that we wouldn’t be seeing our favourite players go. I tihnk you hit then ail on the head when you said they saw what they had in training camp and the preseason and decided to do a 180 and move in another direction. The fact that it all happened so abruptly is what is making us all so angry, but like I said earlier, I think this is what many of us wanted, a legitimate rebuild. We will appreciate it a few years down the line.

by SPENCEMAN on Sep 7, 2010 12:40 PM PDT reply actions  

They haven't dropped any starters, so I wouldn't view it as throwing in the towel this year

Everyone acts like the sky is falling, but they haven’t dropped anyone who would have started week 1. They view Housh as a slot/3rd WR, which is likely his best position at this point.

Vickerson was depth. Wilson was depth (and would be on most NFL teams, despite his skills; especially teams that want to run man to man like the Seahawks). Terrill was depth.

Am I missing someone?

by jpd2d on Sep 7, 2010 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

On this team

Housh was a starter, Sims was a starter, Grant was a starter, Tapp was a starter.

Then there’s guys that might be not be “starters” but who would be getting major playing time on this team. Burleson was a 2 or 3 WR who was on the field like a starter, Wilson was a 2/3 CB who was on the field like a starter, Jackson was the first DE of the bench for injuries or rotation.

I’m not saying that the sky is falling, but if this team was trying to win in 2010 they would not have moved these guys for mid to late round picks (or nothing).

What the front office is trying to do is trade a few wins in 2010 for a few wins every year thereafter. Every move they have made (except Charlie Whitehurst) has pointed to that conclusion. It’s too early to tell if that strategy is viable, so I’m not ready to throw rocks at them yet, but the front office is pretty clearly focused on 2011 and beyond.

by cro-mag! on Sep 7, 2010 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

I see you point

But try and look at it this way.
Housh while being a starter was a expendable one. With the emergence of BMW, a healthy (finally) Branch, 2nd year starter in Butler and the up and coming rookie Golden Tate. There really wasn’t any reason not to let Housh go and let the younger guys play. It’s not like Housh was going to get us into the playoffs this. But now I wish they could have at least gotten something for him. As for Burleson he priced himself out of Seattle and I don’t blame him for taking the money and running. As for Wilson the FO felt they could probably get a 4th round pick for a guy who is technically a backup. With the move the team now can give the younger guys a chance to play. And with Jackson they felt Balmer was a better fit.

by cthunder on Sep 7, 2010 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agree.

“I’m not saying that the sky is falling, but if this team was trying to win in 2010 they would not have moved these guys for mid to late round picks (or nothing).”

None of the moves you mentioned make this team better in 2010, they make it worse. The hope behind them is that we can sacrifice some talent and wins now, and get more value later. Getting younger guys a chance to play is not about winning now, it’s about winning later. 2011 draft picks are not about winning now, they are about winning later.

Although I’m annoyed with this strategy, I pay for season tickets and want to watch a competitive team, I can at least see the logic behind it. Unfortunatly strategies need to be logical AND well executed for them to work. Let’s hope they execute.

by cro-mag! on Sep 7, 2010 9:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

I would rather sacrifice a couple wins this season

when we are not likely to be in contention for too much to add a couple wins to each season for the next 5 years or so when we are rebuilt and contending. Sounds like a good trade-off to me

by Mpjohns3 on Sep 8, 2010 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

Backup is unfair.

He is a “Backup” because of his height, not because of his ability or performance on the field. He was the best playmaker in our secondary, and a very valuable man in the return game.

Losing him we lost our 2nd best corner, a premiere nickle back and a very good kick returner.

He is also only 26, just entering his prime.

Seattle got boned in this trade, no two ways about it.

by Fightfightfight on Sep 7, 2010 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

I've argued this elsewhere very similarly.

So let me add on to your statement by saying: None of us here were calling Josh Wilson a backup before he was traded.

Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...

by Cheddar28 on Sep 8, 2010 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

Some were calling him a nickel back, which is considered a back-up

I completely agree that he is a premier nickel back and the Wilson deal is one of the two bad moves this off season. However, it does not demonstrate that the Seahawks are throwing in the towel this season. The fact is that with the defense that the Seahawks want to run, he would not have started at CB2. It will be Jennings until T3 is ready, which I assume the team thinks will be before mid-season. If they didn’t trade him, everyone here would have had the opportunity to complain all year about Wilson not starting. No one here has the benefit of being in the meeting rooms and every practice to determine if Wilson or Jennings/T3 is better suited to play CB2 in this defense. The CBs are being asked to play a completely different style than the last few years.

by jpd2d on Sep 8, 2010 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Chris Carr is starting over Josh Wilson this weekend

Which means that Wilson is the fourth string CB on the Ravens once Webb is healthy.

by jpd2d on Sep 8, 2010 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

To be fair, it could also have something to do with amount of time needed to learn the scheme. He has been there, what a week?

…but that is speculation. He may eventually be a #4 CB there, or could be a #2 or #3. He is still young and improving.

by IslandHawk on Sep 8, 2010 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

You mean: "On this 2009 team"

If Housh, Grant, Tapp and Sims were still on this roster for the 2010 season, all of them would be back-ups (*Housh would be the slot/3rd WR). The team views Jackson and Balmer as a push. I am not sure how you can see it differently. I agree that the Wilson situation is the outlier. To me, the FO has made only two critical bad moves (two too many) this off season: the Wilson and Whitehurst deals.

by jpd2d on Sep 8, 2010 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't

see either as being a bad move. The coaching staff feels T3 is the real deal and if he pans out by mid season he could be making the trade of Wilson a smart move. As for Whitehurst the verdict is still out on him. We all know he will have to start a game or 2 for a banged up Hasselbeck. So it’s a wait and see approach with him.

by cthunder on Sep 8, 2010 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think you're right and I'm kind of coming to terms with this

I think if next off season they let all of these guys walk we’d have ran around saying “Why didn’t you at least trade them if you knew you weren’t going to sign them and get SOMETHING”. It’s dumb, they got rid of some good players and didn’t get enough in return, but like Scruffy has been saying I don’t know if we can use these moves as an indicment of their ability to build the team in the future until we see how they handle their own players.

by Nate Dogg on Sep 7, 2010 12:53 PM PDT reply actions  

If the Onion followed the Seahawks:

Renton: Police question Seahawks GM John Schneider in connection to an infant found, in what appeared to be a puddle of bath water, outside the VMA facility last Sunday afternoon…

by BeaverBird on Sep 10, 2010 2:33 AM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

Sorry if this has been brought up above but my thought is:

They realize how tenuous the team’s QB play is right now. They didn’t like anyone in the upcoming draft and/or couldn’t bank on getting them for the pick they would like (what I mean is, you can like Clausen, but if you don’t want to use your first or even second on him then you have to pursue a different option). So you take Charlie, who fits the system very well, could start for you sooner rather than later, is not old, and has a little more experience than a draft pick.

Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...

by Cheddar28 on Sep 7, 2010 3:19 PM PDT reply actions  

Whitehurst

My issue is that trading a third for Charlie, and then signing him for two years does not jive with the rest of the “first tear it down and then rebuild” strategy they are implementing. A third round pick could (should?) be a starter at a non-premium position. Sean Locklear, Leroy Hill, Deon Butler, were all third round picks that contributed for more than just two years. (crossing fingers on Butler)

If they traded away the exact same thing, and then signed Charlie to a two year deal with a team option for two more at starting QB money, then it would fit into a rebuilding strategy.

by cro-mag! on Sep 7, 2010 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Whitehurst was being pursued by a division rival

If you remember the other team that really wanted to sign Whitehurst was the Cardinals. Schneider said he wanted Whitehurst for GB when he played at Clemson due to his ability to play in bad weather yada yada. Anyway my point is we traded to see what Whitehurst COULD BECOME and yet not bet the farm on him. We still got an excellent second round pick in Golden Tate and a potential starting QB is worth a third round pick in my eyes. I believe the amount of money they offered was due to the fact that Arizona was courting him as well. I believe they signed him only two years so they were not married to him if he didn’t pan out.
Also look at the quarterback situation in Arizona now…. I can imagine us facing Whitehurst twice a year in Arizona if we had not made that trade. Personally I am glad we will be facing Derek Anderson.

by chris79 on Sep 7, 2010 7:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not criticizing the Whitehurst trade, or contract

Just commenting that it is the only transaction in the entire offseason which does not point to tearing down the team and rebuilding to compete beyond 2011.

While signing him for two years means we “aren’t married to him,” it also means that if he backs up Matt this year and then proves himself a capable starter next year, we’ll have no leverage over him and he can go sign a big free agent deal elsewhere. Again, not criticizing the trade, just noting that it is the biggest move of the offseason and yet it the only one that isn’t squarely focused on rebuilding.

by cro-mag! on Sep 7, 2010 9:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think they only signed him for two years as a stop-gap while they pick their future QB in the 2011 draft.

Which would be part of a rebuild. Instead of worrying about extending Hass for one more year or having a rookie QB starting in 2011, they have Whitehurst to bridge that gap from Hass to the QB of the future.

by Hopefulmsfan on Sep 7, 2010 11:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Exactly my thoughts

seems like it is exactly what the FO is doing

by Mpjohns3 on Sep 8, 2010 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

There are stop gaps and stop gaps I think.

I’d prefer Whitehurst to Andersen, Kitna, Campbell, Rosenfels, or any of the other QBs available for a smaller price. This particular stop gap still has potential, too, so could become something more.

Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...

by Cheddar28 on Sep 8, 2010 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

I like Campbell, but I'm with you on the others.

I think he has a big year.

Thank you, Walter Jones.
Thank you, Ken Griffey Jr.

by thebyron on Sep 9, 2010 7:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

I would assume that the plan would be to extend Whitehurst's contract...

this year or early next if they like what they see in practice and meeting rooms.

by jpd2d on Sep 8, 2010 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agreed it seems strange when looking at the surface but....

If they REALLY felt like Whitehurst was the future, without a doubt, I believe they would have signed him for 3 or more years. I believe they were hedging their bets and saying that two years was a long enough time to decide if he can compete as a starter in the NFL. I imagine if they think he will start next year he will get an extension this offseason. If they are still unsure, I doubt we will see much happen. I think this year is a tryout. It will be interesting to see how much rope they give their hand-picked guys as opposed to those they obviously had no interest in. Obviously I can’t argue like this is fact, it is what I HOPE is true because otherwise it makes no sense.

by chris79 on Sep 8, 2010 8:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

It's definitely a good comment.

I think the Whitehorse trade is the exception to what Q/PM have been up to because of the circumstances we’ve all outlined. One can take that however one wants.

Though they sink through the Sea, they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion...

by Cheddar28 on Sep 8, 2010 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

What about transactions that didn't happen that point to competing in 2010

Why does everyone think that transactions affecting tier 2 players on a bad team mean that the team is tearing down? Don’t just focus on the ones that happened; think about the ones that didn’t. If tearing down and throwing in the towel this year, why keep Hasselbeck, Tatupu, Trufant, Branch, Spencer, Mebane, etc (all would have provided more valuable future picks/building blocks). Branch is the most interesting example, and one that tells you a lot about the Housh decision. Cutting Branch would have actually saved real cash ($5.5 million this year) and generated playing time for other WRs. Clearly, there were reasons beyond playing time and cash that influenced the Housh cut. Again, the Wilson trade is the only outlier, and that one might have to be chalked up to the fact that most coaches seem to discount his abilities. Every year he starts as an afterthought by the coach and becomes a playmaker. The FO is infatuated with T3, whom they view as a 1st round pick that can step in a high quality CB2 this year that is as good or better than Wilson (plus they have a 5th round pick). It might be a bad decision, but it doesn’t mean they don’t intend to compete this year.

by jpd2d on Sep 8, 2010 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Obviously this is a touchy subject and I am not speaking for EVERYONE.

I try to write in my personal perspective and am not saying I am right or that everyone must believe what I say @jpd2d. I don’t believe everyone thinks this is a rebuilding year, but I read that John Schneider slipped in a press conference after 53 man roster cuts and had to back up and say it wasn’t “rebuilding” but “constant building”. The FO has to sell tickets and I believe part of that is denying the “rebuilding” process.
Also, saying that a team is “rebuilding” does not imply, imo, that you dump every asset you own. I did not say that Carroll is trying to lose…. but by allowing unproven rookies and potential starters to replace proven NFL caliber talent (see Housh) so that they get more reps points to a FO that is determined to get better in the future at the expense of putting the best talent on the field this year.
I had little belief that Carroll could magically turn last years team into a playoff contender so I am holding out hope that he and Schneider have a plan that will work. Josh Wilson may have had talent but he was, again imo, prototypical Ruskell guy high energy, good work ethic, low ceiling. I believe he has a low ceiling because of his size, which applies to Jennings as well. I imagine Jennings will be gone next year after the draft and you will see a larger more physical team. I love physical football (see Earl Thomas destroys Percy Harvin) and I don’t believe any receiving corp is intimidated going over the middle against Babs, Wilson, Jennings. Carroll wants a defense that brings the wood and I am onboard. Tired of the Seahawks defense getting pushed around.

by chris79 on Sep 8, 2010 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Babs is back!!

they just resigned him? i guess they cut too deep, haha

by 13receivers16days on Sep 7, 2010 3:25 PM PDT reply actions  

I think Whitehurst value vs. the sacrificed pick was due to perceived potential upside

If he pans out and is a viable legit starter post-Hass, good trade. If he’s off the roster after 1-2 years, mistake.

by diehard82 on Sep 8, 2010 9:53 AM PDT reply actions  

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