Top Priority: Matt Hasselbeck
The Seahawks are driving. Matt Hasselbeck is cool and efficient. Seattle has exploited short field, mixed short passes with an effective run game and are deep in Buccaneers territory. Tampa has stuffed two consecutive runs by Marshawn Lynch and forced third and one from the one. Seattle sets: two tight ends, I-formation. Guard Chris White sets at H-back. It's a formation that screams run or play-action pass. It's a formation a mobile quarterback could boot out of. Hasselbeck takes the snap and motions handoff towards fullback Michael Robinson. Robinson motions left and then cuts hard right, behind the line and angling towards the end zone. Outside linebacker Anthony Hayward is on him. Hayward closes and bumps him off his route. Hayward is the unwitting mark. Hasselbeck rolls, tucks, runs to the left of Robinson, braces for a Geno Hayes hit that never comes and gingerly scrambles into the end zone, untouched. Touchdown.
An Olindo Mare extra point pushes Seattle's win probability to 71%. Seattle is up 7-0 on the road against the heavily favored Bucs. Hasselbeck capped a 11 play, 62 yard scoring drive with a scramble for a score. It was the last regular season snap he would take in 2010. He missed next week's season defining game against the Rams. He wasn't benched. Nothing about Charlie Whitehurst's ensuing 11 for 18 for 66 yards performance earned him the starter's job. Hasselbeck attempted a one yard scramble and injured himself trying.
Pete Carroll has said that re-signing Matt Hasselbeck is Seattle's top priority this offseason. This despite Hasselbeck struggling all season; despite passes by Hasselbeck accumulating fewer points above replacement in the last four season than Shaun Hill, Jon Kitna or Kerry Collins did in 2010 alone (and each as backups); despite Seattle finishing 7-9, with the 23rd ranked scoring offense, the 28th ranked point differential, and the third weakest strength of schedule in the NFL. Pete Carroll has said that re-signing Matt Hasselbeck is Seattle's top priority this offseason despite overwhelming evidence that the move would be not just a mistake, but one with ramifications that could last for years.
Hasselbeck is 35. He played most of the 2010 season as a 35-year old. According to Pro Football Reference, quarterbacks of Hasselbeck's age produce at 76.8% of their career peak. Hasselbeck's peak was in 2005 at 30. He averaged 7.1 adjusted net yards per attempt. Most quarterbacks peak at 29, and so Hasselbeck is pretty typical. If he had performed at 76.8% of his peak in 2010, he would have averaged 5.5 ANY/A. The league average in 2010 was 5.7. Hasselbeck's actual performance was 4.9 ANY/A. That, his last three seasons and his susceptibility to injury suggest Hasselbeck is declining at a faster rate than a typical quarterback. He turns 36 in September. His projected performance would be 5.0 ANY/A. That is below average. Hasselbeck's actual performance would likely be worse.
Seattle is prioritizing signing a 35-year old, regularly injured quarterback that has underperformed historical averages, and that, for three consecutive seasons, has performed like one of the worst quarterbacks in the NFL. Seattle is prioritizing signing a 35-year old quarterback to a team that needs to replace over half of its roster. Seattle is prioritizing signing a 35-year old quarterback to a team that was the first ever to make the playoffs with a losing record, that was by every objective standard one of the five worst teams in the NFL, that has no meaningful road to contention but dramatic improvement or historical ineptness from the other three teams in its division. To say the move would be unwise is understatement approaching absurdity. Signing Matt Hasselbeck is the most damaging move the Seahawks can make within the realm of realistic moves the Seahawks could make. This isn't burning down the VMAC or trading the entire 2011 draft class to trade up and draft Mark Ingram, but within the realm of realistic moves the Seahawks could make this offseason, signing Hasselbeck is unambiguously the worst.
Pete Carroll has chosen to prioritize it.
Is it possible that Hasselbeck could buck history and become the latest quarterback to enjoy a late-career revival? Of course. Is it possible that Seattle spends resources on another flier like Charlie Whitehurst and develops a successor while still starting Hasselbeck? Of course. Is it likely, supported by evidence, history or anything but a desperate attempt to rationalize an indefensible move? No. Carroll wants to sign and build his team around a player that couldn't scramble into the end zone without injuring himself. That injury contributed to Hasselbeck missing the most important game of the regular season. There's no spin there. Carroll has never wavered in his support of Hasselbeck, has never indicated that the Seahawks must improve the position and is now publicly courting Hasselbeck. Hasselbeck did injure himself by running and without contacting any other player. That injury prevented him from playing in week 17. A game that decided if the Seahawks would make the playoffs or finish 6-10. A game that the greatness and glory of beating the Saints at Qwest was wholly dependent on.
We are probably a few days from the announcement, and though I fear the die has already been cast, it's imperative something must be said. This is a mistake. The unlikely upside is competent play by Hasselbeck with the ever-present possibility of injury. The likely downside is one of the worst teams in the NFL setting back any kind of meaningful building towards the future and potentially miring themselves in loss and failure. At the very least, the very, very least, Seattle absolutely must avoid committing too much guaranteed money to Hasselbeck. If it does sign Hasselbeck, it must sign Hasselbeck fully aware that the signing is at best a partial solution.
Older Seahawks fans talk about losing Dave Krieg and the aftermath. Aftermath spelled: Gelbaugh, Stouffer, McGwire, Mirer. But losing Krieg did not cause the Seahawks ensuing half-decade of irrelevance. After leaving Seattle, Krieg had one more winning season left in him for a one-and-done playoff team: the 1992 Chiefs. He was never again the primary quarterback for a winning team. The lie that losing Krieg led to the misery of the early nineties is written into Seahawks lore. On Krieg's Wikipedia page it reads:
The Seahawks finished a disappointing 7-9, leading to the resignation of Coach Knox. Seattle General Manager Tom Flores decided to retain Stouffer and McGwire, and to let Krieg become a free agent. That decision helped doom the Seahawks to several seasons of misery and mediocrity under a succession of uninspired quarterbacks.
"That decision helped doom . . ." suggesting if only the Seahawks stuck with Krieg, the failure of the early nineties would have been avoided. But that's a lie. Four seasons after moving on from Krieg, the Seahawks did something a Krieg-led Seahawks team hadn't done since 1987: finish in the top ten in scoring. Seattle would do it twice more in the next three seasons. One of the quarterbacks selected to replace Krieg, super-bust Rick Mirer, was later traded for a first round pick from the Bears. That pick turned into Pro Bowl corner Shawn Springs.
Seattle wasn't doomed because it traded Krieg. It was committing to the hard, often painful process of becoming a good team again. It was accepting that even the best are not the best forever, and when a player can no longer perform or stay healthy, it is no longer rational to depend on them. They were making a mature, rational decision that could not guarantee success, but guaranteed progress--that ugly, divisive and slow moving process.
The Seahawks have that same decision in front of them, and the person we pay to make it is telling us that in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, at odds with team history, he wants Matt Hasselbeck to be the Seahawks starting quarterback. If that decision is made, if the contract is written but for the particulars, Seattle may not know just how important and potentially damaging the signing is for years to come. Maybe this time we will remember that letting go of something safe and familiar and suffering the search for something better is painful, but holding on to something that's already gone is denial at its most damaging. That Hasselbeck didn't bring the downfall, but refusing to acknowledge Hasselbeck's own downfall did.
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I'm an admitted Hasselbeck apologist
That said, I think it’s a little silly not to mention that the injury you’re razzing him about was an semi-direct result of his injured wrist. He would not have pulled up lame untouched under normal circumstances.
Damning evidence in and of itself? Sure, maybe. And I do respect your point of view.
So he isn't injury prone because he was already injured?
Also, explain kindly how his wrist injury caused him to hurt himself elsewhere. This may be a story I’ve missed somewhere.
I've heard this as well
that because of his broken left wrist he was never able to brace himself when he fell on his left side. This led to repeated bruising of his left hip that eventually caused him to come up lame.
Whether any of that is true or not I can’t say.
Yeah but a broken wrist isnt really something that happens from being old an injury prone.
The butt/hip thing yes for sure but a broken wrist is just as likely to happen to a perfectly healthy non injury prone person.
While I am no orthopedic surgeon, I do believe bones become more brittle with age
When the “curve” of susceptibility begins, I have no idea — it may be strictly a senior citizen thing. In the NFL, though, I haven’t heard of too many broken wrists during QB sneaks or “tweaked” hips when jogging untouched into the endzone besides Hass.
I love Matty, but his body has taken a pounding, and he does seem a bit fragile at this point.
I was gonna say-
Hass lost time in ’04, ’06, ’08, ’09, and now in ’10.
Most of my cliches aren't original.
- Chuck Knox
by Azimeir on Jan 19, 2011 6:45 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
I must say
I do not post here very much anymore in fact it’s probably been over a year since my last post,but John’s piece on this subject is very much on target and is the best break down on our QB situation I have read and felt the need to log in and just say well done I enjoyed reading this.
by A'Seahawks_Warriors on Jan 20, 2011 4:51 PM PST up reply actions
He couldn't brace himself with his broken wrist,
so falling over and over on his left side caused the butt problem. He’d been playing with the back injury since San Diego. Hasselbeck was at least able to play through several injuries this year and play well at the end of the season. I don’t see any reason why he wouldn’t be better than our other two potential options at the beginning of next year and if he’s not, I don’t see why he wouldn’t be benched.
by BurtonOerney on Jan 19, 2011 5:04 PM PST up reply actions
It's not about next year,
Signing matt for anything more than a cheap backup amount of money, hamstrings our team be not letting us move on. Thus continuing the seemingly never ending question: When are we going to get a good young or at least promising prospect at the position. Hass may play OK next year, but we need something for the future not someone who could fall apart physically at any moment.
by Savage Seahawk fan on Jan 19, 2011 5:36 PM PST up reply actions
The money they'll pay for Hasselbeck won't 'hamstring' the team.
Come on, now.
by BurtonOerney on Jan 19, 2011 5:42 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm just repeating the same idea John is pointing out.
We need a future… Hass is not our future… An aging, injury prone quarterback is not what we need when we have young talent that is and will be progressing. We need a talent that will be maturing around the same time the rest of our young building blocks will be. Hass is so far out of his prime. That is all I am saying.
by Savage Seahawk fan on Jan 19, 2011 5:49 PM PST up reply actions
Lot of that going around.
It’s possible we pay too much for Matt Hasselbeck. I’d be happy to see Vince Young give it a shot, I guess, but that seems less likely than paying a reasonable amount for Hasselbeck and drafting a quarterback with the first pick.
by BurtonOerney on Jan 19, 2011 5:55 PM PST up reply actions
Well his statistics the last few years have been below average, as you have stated above.
Also, the Hass we have watched all year has been shy in the pocket, indecisive and almost confused, which I do admit could be due to poor coaching or 3 systems in 3 years, but he is not the same guy we saw in 2005 who was smart and skilled as anyone in the league.
by Savage Seahawk fan on Jan 19, 2011 5:53 PM PST up reply actions
I heard the same thing
I think it was on KJR but not 100%, Matt was giving an interview and said the same thing himself when they were picking on him about hurting his butt.
Nonsense or not
Matt has said in interviews that he can’t fall properly because of his wrist injury – can’t brace himself so his hip gets most of the impact.
by m_b on Jan 19, 2011 5:08 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Wasn't arguing that
But I would contend that you almost have to plan for him to be out 2-3 games next year if resigned. It’s going to happen.
by m_b on Jan 19, 2011 5:13 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
It's been widely broadcast, written about, and discussed.
He couldn’t break his falls with his left hand and arm like everyone on the planet does. As a result, he fell repeatedly on his hip and butt, weakening that area. I’m not saying he isn’t brittle. I’m just relaying what others, including Matt himself, have said. The explanation makes a whole lot of sense to me. But yeah, he has been injured a lot. Will that continue behind a hopefully better offensive line anchored by Okung? Who the hell knows.
He's missed time in 04, 06, 08, 09, and 10.
I think it’s pretty safe to say he’s likely to get injured no matter who is blocking for him.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 21, 2011 1:21 PM PST up reply actions
I'm very pleased
that we finally settled on just criticizing Hasselbeck and are no longer pretending that Charlie Whitehurst will ever be an NFL starter.
by dingoeatbaby on Jan 21, 2011 10:07 PM PST up reply actions
I haven't settled on that, by a long shot.
And if you have, I think you are being unreasonable. Give the guy some more time, see what he can do. If you judge him by 2 starts and two games spot time, you are going to be disappointed by just about every quarterback in the history of the NFL.
Few guys play well in their first start. But hey, you already know the future, you’re able to evaluate an NFL player on 8-10 quarters. Kudos to you for your skill in player evaluation.
And why aren’t you working for an NFL team yet?
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 22, 2011 12:44 PM PST up reply actions
Additionally
Carroll has no reason to be loyal to Hasselbeck. One year is nothing. He ditched Bates after one year. In what way is Hasselbeck the “familiar” option aside from being the default one?
Whether he has a reason to be loyal or not he certainly claims to be
I love what Matt has brought to this program well before I got here and what he did for us this year, and what he did for me to help getting this program started, and I’m not forgetting about any of that.
I heard it the press conference too.
All I was saying is that he could easily ditch him if he thought he couldn’t do the job. He has every opportunity to move in another, right now. He’s not making his decision based solely on loyalty. If he operated that way, where is Bates? Bates took him to the playoffs, called a great game against NO, and has a longer history with him.
To me, it’s silly to accuse Carroll of bringing back Matt based on “nostalgia” and loyalty. He’s cut ties with players easily and repeatedly. Seems to me, he’s making the decision based on what he thinks Matt can do to win games going forward, and to mentor a future franchise quarterback. You can question that approach. But that’s the approach. It’s not about ooey-gooey nostalgia or a man crush.
Curses, Pete Carroll.
He’s like that manager (La Russa?) in the MLB who refuses to play younger players even in a losing season. And this could end up costing the franchise.
Mora.
Lonely like cheese and baloney only / I could've broke my sacroiliac
Silly grind, Billy Jack, illy nine milli black - MF DOOM
by Wayward Llama on Jan 19, 2011 5:24 PM PST up reply actions
Karl, George
Most of my cliches aren't original.
- Chuck Knox
by Azimeir on Jan 19, 2011 6:50 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
As long as it doesn't turn into the Ken Griffey Jr situation
I don’t have a huge problem with Hass being back for not so much money in a non-guarenteed starter role. He could compete, mentor and all that good stuff. If we don’t have a ready QB and Whitehurst sucks – then Hass is an ok filler.
But it may not be a good choice to bring him in if it’s going to be an ugly departure (a la Griffey).
Uh-oh, you said mentor.
People are going to yell at you.
by purplepansy on Jan 19, 2011 5:05 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR
Do I even need to say it? Did we all not see the look on Hass’s face when Charlie first took the field? The guy doesn’t look like a mentor (yet) to me.
Yeah, I don't think so either.
I don’t think he’ll be back unless he starts.
Lonely like cheese and baloney only / I could've broke my sacroiliac
Silly grind, Billy Jack, illy nine milli black - MF DOOM
by Wayward Llama on Jan 19, 2011 5:26 PM PST up reply actions
Did we all not see the look on Hass’s face when Charlie first took the field?
He looked pissy. Especially after Charlie hit Williams for that TD.
John Hancock
by mrcoffee1969 on Jan 20, 2011 7:36 AM PST up reply actions
Pete mentioned mentoring in today's press conference
He said that Matt was pretty good about talking with JP and Charlie.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 5:46 PM PST up reply actions
Talking: "Hey you bag of sucks, go get my jock!"
by John Morgan on Jan 19, 2011 5:49 PM PST up reply actions 5 recs
What does that even mean?
I was paraphrasing. Pete said Matt was acting as a good mentor but was too competitive to want to take the bench unless a guy beat him.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 6:07 PM PST up reply actions
well first of all Ken Griffey Jr didn't play the most important position to the team
If fact, there isn’t one in baseball.
Second of all, Griffey left for a long while then came back for nostalgia and ticket sales. So, when do we let Matt go?
by B.B.Finnegan on Jan 19, 2011 5:22 PM PST up reply actions
Not a exact parallel
But it’s the sentiment i was referring to – hanging on to an aged veteran who is in with the players and has been a fan favorite.
It’s not as extreme as Griffey because Griffey is a Hall of Famer to be and saved baseball in Seattle and all of that stuff, but it may be a slightly delicate area if not handled correctly.
Yuck.
Please, please, PLEASE let there be a plan. A non-Hasselbeck long-term plan, despite this alleged ‘decision’. Give me Ryan Fitzpatrick, Kyle Orton, or Kevin Kolb. Heck, take a swing at Shaun Hill or Drew Stanton. SOMEBODY that has a change – a legitimate chance to unseat Hasselbeck – preferable through the draft.
I’m not happy our teams wagon will be hitched to Hasselbeck. This may also bring Carroll’s downfall, which is too bad. I like the guy.
...
The plan is that when you are picking #25 in the draft, there is no guarantee you'll get the "Franchise QB" you really want.
I get the feeling that Carroll prefers continuity at the QB position, and would rather stick with Matt (at least in the short term) rather than spend extra resources to acquire some of those available/quasi-available QBs. And while I think it would be interesting to bring Drew Stanton in and see what he can do, I wouldn’t want to pin any long-term hopes on his shoulders (or trade away a 2nd rounder to get Kolb or Orton).
This is my thinking on the matter.
If they sign Hasselbeck to an incentive-laden contract, and no quality QBs are available with the 25th pick, then you aren’t necessarily forcing yourself to reach at the position come draft day.
If Hass does terrible next year, you have a shot at Andrew Luck or Barkley. You also have a contract that you can jettison easily if they do get the QB they want in the draft this year, and said rookie/Charlie does well enough to unseat him.
Now, if he signs for a super-expensive multi-year contract, I don’t be entirely pleased.
by splintrdmind on Jan 19, 2011 8:13 PM PST up reply actions
There's NEVER a guarantee, regardless of draft position.
JaMarcus Russell was drafted first overall; Ryan Leaf was second overall; Joe Montana was drafted in the third round, 82nd overall. So there’s no guarantee that an early draft pick will be good, or that a later pick won’t be. With quarterbacks you just can’t tell, at all, what you’ve got until you’ve got it. The best we can do is keep trying ’em out until we have one that works.
As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.
by Bisquick McBob on Jan 20, 2011 7:38 AM PST up reply actions
But historically...
Franchise QB’s are found in the first. Go through the league and take a look:
-Aaron Rogers
-Peyton Manning
-Matt Ryan
-Sam Bradford
-Phillip Rivers
-Eli Manning
-Michael Vick
-Mark Sanchez
-Ben Roethlisberger
-Joe Flacco
ETC. Point being, you are much more likely to find a franchise guy in round 1 than any other round.
Ka-Kaaa!
If Hass is one of the worst QBs in the league and rapidly getting worse
won’t there soon be a more complete collapse? Like say, next season?
We can’t depend on drafting a a QB this year picking at 25. We could still draft one though if maybe Locker or Mallett fell. Why would resigning Matt change that?
One that doesn't leave us 7-9 and winning a playoff game
How about a 3-13 season leading us straight to Andrew Luck.
by Hawkhammer19 on Jan 19, 2011 5:16 PM PST up reply actions
We can still draft a QB this year if one falls.
I mean if the NFC West would somehow get a bit better and we stick with Hass then won’t eventually (within the next two years) be BAD. That should lead us to a franchise QB if one doesn’t materialize.
by Hawkhammer19 on Jan 19, 2011 5:24 PM PST up reply actions
More then likely some other team will go 2-14
And get Andrew Luck, then we draft someone like Aaron Curry as a consolation prize.
by B.B.Finnegan on Jan 19, 2011 5:23 PM PST up reply actions
Then we still wouldn't be a very good team
and we draft a QB the following year.
by Hawkhammer19 on Jan 19, 2011 5:26 PM PST up reply actions
This is starting to sound
Ominously like the last few years of the Raiders. Or the Rams.
Getting mired in losing may get you high draft picks, but that’s not necessarily the path to winning.
I have faith that someone is up to the task.
And it might as well be us.
As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.
by Bisquick McBob on Jan 20, 2011 7:40 AM PST up reply actions
So you're saying Seattle should lock itself into guaranteed money for a quarterback it hopes to replace?
How about cutting out the middleman and simply replacing Hasselbeck.
We want a young franchise QB don't we?
There’s a very good possibility the good ones are gone by our pick. If that’s the case then we focus on defense and wait for the eventual collapse of the offense which should lead us to a good shot at a real franchise QB.
by Hawkhammer19 on Jan 19, 2011 5:18 PM PST up reply actions
It collapsed years ago in 08 and has sucked ever since
by B.B.Finnegan on Jan 19, 2011 5:24 PM PST up reply actions
But it somehow had a resurgence this year that got us those two wins in the final nine games and led us to a playoff victory
by Hawkhammer19 on Jan 19, 2011 5:27 PM PST up reply actions
The collapse is not complete
It’s not like we don’t already have enough holes to fill one defense too.
by Hawkhammer19 on Jan 19, 2011 5:28 PM PST up reply actions
What team have you been watching?
Hasselbeck threw 5 more picks than touchdowns and hasn’t thrown more touchdowns than picks in over three seasons. Since 2008 Seattle has been ranked 25th 27, and 29th in passing offense DVOA and 25th, 25th and 23rd in points scored. It’s not like Hasselbeck offers some kind of middling offense that you hope the team can get by on, he’s been abjectly terrible for an extended period of time.
With a few games of past-brilliance surfacing just enough to give supporters false hope
I just hope Matty doesn’t get a big salary-cap crunching, free-agent signing limiting, guaranteed money contract that cripples our ability to add talent and fill other holes.
That's my point
We can’t rely on it to get by but somehow this season we did and it worked. Next season we’ll hardly be so lucky. My point about the defense is we won’t have any trouble finding uses for our draft picks and other resources.
by Hawkhammer19 on Jan 19, 2011 5:33 PM PST up reply actions
So maybe I'm misunderstanding you.
You want to resign Hasselbeck in order to sabotage next season and get a better draft pick?
Haha no
We can always be hopeful for that late career resurgence from Magic Matt. Then once that is done we can have a full rebuild.
by Hawkhammer19 on Jan 19, 2011 5:38 PM PST up reply actions
And how long are we going to keep waiting for a miraculous career resurgence before finally moving in another direction?
We’re going into year four of this now.
Matt is an eerie bizarro echo of Alex Smith
by IslandHawk on Jan 19, 2011 5:40 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
When the offense is bad enough to keep us out of the playoffs or a franchise QB falls in our lap
and we feel comfortable starting him.
by Hawkhammer19 on Jan 19, 2011 5:40 PM PST up reply actions
How is a franchise quarterback going to fall into place if we keep rolling the dice with Magic Matt?
One could fall in our lap THIS year
Mallett or Locker could fall. Teams that rush the QB solutions are the ones that suck forever. You gotta be patient. We passed on Sanchez and I’m glad we did.
by Hawkhammer19 on Jan 19, 2011 5:46 PM PST up reply actions
So we should make like Cleveland and sign Jake Delhomme or like Carolina and keep playing Jake Delhomme.
Or maybe we should keep trotting Trent Edwards out there. Or Alex Smith.
Or sign our own "Alex Smith" or Clausen
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 6:08 PM PST up reply actions
I'm not opposed to drafting a QB
but we need contingency plans. If we’d lost to the Rams and had a top 10 pick I’d say “great, see ya Matt.” We don’t have a top 10 pick though.
by Hawkhammer19 on Jan 19, 2011 8:31 PM PST up reply actions
Oh man. No. Have you watched our offense?
by B.B.Finnegan on Jan 19, 2011 5:42 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Yes
It apparently wasn’t bad enough to keep us out of the playoffs.
by Hawkhammer19 on Jan 19, 2011 5:44 PM PST up reply actions
I'm glad it didn't though because it made the most of things once we got there.
by Hawkhammer19 on Jan 19, 2011 5:48 PM PST up reply actions
That run and that upset are some great Seahawk moments
by Hawkhammer19 on Jan 19, 2011 5:49 PM PST up reply actions
I agree and I can't wait for the high pick we'll get when we don't sustain it.
by Hawkhammer19 on Jan 19, 2011 5:52 PM PST up reply actions
Hawkhammer, dude
I think you should look back a read your posts cause I’m not sure you know what you are saying.
The odds are decidedly against there being a Magic Matt and get worse every year
Why not start the rebuild immediately so you can be years ahead of schedule?
by B.B.Finnegan on Jan 19, 2011 5:40 PM PST up reply actions
Win NOW! Always Compete! (Unless you are Gus Bradley)
(sarcasm font)
by IslandHawk on Jan 19, 2011 5:41 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
We can do that as is
Lots of good players fall into the late first, including QBs.
by Hawkhammer19 on Jan 19, 2011 5:42 PM PST up reply actions
Indeed, players like Kelly Jennings..
ha
by B.B.Finnegan on Jan 19, 2011 5:43 PM PST up reply actions
That was Ruskell
We have Schneider and Pete now. Thus far they’ve done fine in the first.
by Hawkhammer19 on Jan 19, 2011 5:44 PM PST up reply actions
A resurgence that led to two wins in nine games?
Is that sarcasm?
by John Morgan on Jan 19, 2011 5:28 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Yes and no
It is what it is. I’m by no means excited about riding the Stokley train for two more years but I like it more than way overpaying for a QB solution that probably won’t even work.
by Hawkhammer19 on Jan 19, 2011 5:31 PM PST up reply actions
I cannot stress enough
That you don’t go into the season without the best possible QB under center. If you are blessed with suck at the position, you evaluate who you can get for what, balance the cost versus the (as perceived by your coaches and scouts) rewards, and obtain him.
I mean, if you try and no one’s playing ball that’s one thing, and there’s a lot of off season to go, but if the ’Hawks roll like this, like Arizona did, they are God damn fools.
Most of my cliches aren't original.
- Chuck Knox
by Azimeir on Jan 19, 2011 7:04 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Why?
Arizona has a top ten pick and lots of talent.
Seattle has… uh…
A division title.
Always Compete! Win Forever!
I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul - Invictus
Come on dude..
Would you rather be an Arizona fan right now?
I don’t see players doing back-flips to play for that team right now.
Ka-Kaaa!
With that logic
You should assemble talent and deliberately lose for two or three years to acquire more high picks. You make it sound like the Cardinals did this on purpose.
Most of my cliches aren't original.
- Chuck Knox
Matt's always been known as a smart quarterback.
He’s a guy who never really impressed physically (by the standards of an NFL starting QB anyway) but understood how to read defenses and was good at managing an offense. If the hawks plan on drafting a QB i can see some benefit in having Matt around for the QB of the future to learn from. A rookie QB isn’t going to learn much from Charlie besides who makes the best clipboard.
Which is funny as Favre's not seen as a mentor
Yet:
Hasselbeck, Brunell, Rodgers…
I don't know the story on the other two, but the development of Rodgers was at best in spite of Favre.
The two had open animosity and Rodgers even sniped at Favre in the press. Favre also was notorious about taking days off from practice but did so less often because Rodgers was playing so well in practice and Favre probably was threatened.
We haven't had strong talent under Hass..
Since he’s been here. Favre mentored Rogers, but Rogers was a 1st round QB. I imagine if we had the chance to draft such a great talent at QB we would, and Hass would help develop him..
Green, Whitehurst, Wallace ain’t necessarily kicking down doors..
Ka-Kaaa!
Did Rogers actually need Favre?
I honestly wonder if he might actually be better now if he had started right out of the gate. At the very least I think it’s entirely possible Rogers would have been this good a few seasons earlier.
So, despite any evidence to support Hasselbeck is a good mentor, much less that any quarterback improves the quarterback(s) serving under him
the Seahawks should commit to Hasselbeck as the starter, because he might, maybe, could possibly mentor a talent the Seahawks do not have?
by John Morgan on Jan 19, 2011 5:30 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Because it's better than nothing.
He showed some moxy in the playoffs, and I can think of close to a dozen teams who would like him right now.
Keep him around, until the actual replacement (whoever this is) is ready to go. Whitehurst isn’t there yet, but at least we have him if we need him.
I mean, we could always lay in the basement of the NFL because “hey, let’s draft high for the next decade!” A losing mentality is not something that helps build a team. We want to be a desirable place for free agents and coaches, and having high draft picks doesn’t always equal success..Bills anyone?
Ka-Kaaa!
This is nothing.
This is completely lateral and moves the team nowhere towards finding a franchise QB.
The Bills are among the most inept teams in the NFL and part of that has to do with sticking with bad quarterbacks.
They kept Trent Edwards around and relied on him as a starter. That went well.
Doesn't this sound like what John is asking for?
Shuffling through bad quarterback until we find our future? I want to know how this will make us better?
There is not reason to think that we won’t find a high draft pick at QB very soon that will take us into the future.
Ka-Kaaa!
We'd be shuffling through younger quarterbacks with potential upside.
With Matt, you know exactly what you’re getting. Old, injury prone, and middling to poor results.
But to be fair,
In the last 15 years, every winning Bills team has been with an old QB.
In Jim Kelly’s last season at age 36, he threw more INTs than TDs, but the Bills finished the year 10-6 and in the playoffs. He was replaced by 26 year old Todd Collins the next year and finished 6-10.
Todd Collins was replaced by 36 year old Doug Flutie who went on to lead Buffalo to 10-6 and 11-5 playoff teams. But then the Bills decided to go young and started Rob Johnson in the playoffs (even though Flutie was healthy) and lost in the Music City Miracle game. The next year Rob Johson was the starter and Flutie only got spot starts due to injury, the team finished 8-8 but was 4-1 in games started by Flutie.
Their only other winning season was a 9-7 season with Bledsoe a couple years before he fell out of the league due to not wanting to take on a backup roll.
Now Hasselbeck’s production might not match that of Kelly, Flutie or Bledsoe, but I think it shows that you can screw yourself by going young, just for the sake of going young. If the coaching staff is looking at the film and feels Matt is doing everything they want him to do, and the reason the offense is unproductive is because of something else, then I think it’s foolish to get rid of Matt.
by Mind of no mind on Jan 19, 2011 8:28 PM PST up reply actions
Firstly: the Seahawks were not in the Bills position,
secondly: those Bills teams had the “limp dick leader” Wade Phillips as coach and probably needed some experience and leadership on offense.
I see your point, but ask yourself does this axiom of experience over youth apply to this Seahawks team now?
by jubelthebear on Jan 19, 2011 8:36 PM PST up reply actions
If the Seahawks coaching staff is convinced that the offensive struggles are not the result of Hasselbeck's play, then yes.
I know some people might chalk it up as an “appeal to authority”, but when it comes to certain things like QB play, WR route accuracy, CB/S play, you kind of have to trust the coaching staff.
Matt was on 710 sometime around the halfway mark of the season when they asked him about some of his struggles. He talked about how every week you get a grade from the coaching staff on every little aspect of your performance, and he said he actually graded out well in every game except for 2, the Denver game and one other that I can’t remember.
It’s kind of like that pick 6 he threw in Green Bay in the playoffs. For awhile everyone just kind of assumed he threw a bad pass that cost us the game, but then several years later in an interview Holmgren said that Bannister ran the wrong route. There is just is no way to know that kind of stuff unless the coaches share that information.
by Mind of no mind on Jan 19, 2011 10:18 PM PST up reply actions
Hasselbeck graded out well in all but 2 games?
The rubric is broke.
This makes me think Pete Carroll is never going to win here.
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 20, 2011 12:34 AM PST up reply actions
It was up to that point in the season.
I looked it up to be sure, and it turns out it was after week 7, after the win against the Cards at home. And he says he graded out well in all games except the Denver game. Up to that point the only two loses had been the Denver loss and the Rams road loss.
Here is the audio if anyone wants to listen, the part I’m talking about starts at the 14:50 mark.
by Mind of no mind on Jan 20, 2011 1:59 AM PST up reply actions
Why does Matt have to be the stop gap?
Why do we need to keep him, specifically him and no one else but him, around?
Fitzpatrick, Orton, Stanton, Hill, Whitehurst, Rosenfels, Leinart or any number of rookies.
I don’t know off the top of my head who all are free agents this year but Hasselbeck has been outplayed by a pretty long list of quarterbacks.
Why?
When he can keep making 10 million a year to be mediocre at best, and have nobody that is in a position of authority show any inclination of acknowledging his mediocrity and the franchise spinning of the wheels that his play perpetuates.
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 20, 2011 12:39 AM PST up reply actions
We don't.
The issue is we should have started looking for his replacement three years ago, but we didn’t, and now we get to chose between drafting a rooking and hoping he can start right away, drafting a rooking and resigning Hasselbeck to start until the rookie is ready, throwing money at a veteran rent a QB, or hoping an unknown like Whitehurst can start and be effective. They’re all awful options with a high probability of this team being awful next year.
How would a free agent signing be a "rent a quarterback?"
I guess, by that analogy, Hasselbeck would be the broken down leased quarterback you’ve bought ten times over fixing.
In Schneider and Carroll I trust.
From the moment I finished listening to Pete Carroll’s 45 minute plus introductory press conference, I’ve been wasted on Uncle Pete’s spiked kool-aid. Everything these guys touch turns into gold. Next year is our year, “CHAMPIONSHIP”. GO HAWKS!!!
John, let's say you get your way.
Hass is gone. What would you want to see the Hawks do at QB?
Draft one this year? Free agency? Trade?
What would be the best possible scenario?
Seems a little like cutting a player just for the sake of cutting him...
What if Hass agrees to a 2-year deal with the understanding that they want to groom teh future ASAP?
It’s a little knee-jerk to me, and if he has some juice left (as he proved when it mattered), it does no harm in having him on our team.
Ka-Kaaa!
Isn't that what keeping Hasselbeck is about?
We’ll draft high for one while he’s on our team I presume..
Ka-Kaaa!
What if there's only 2 weeks between the start of camp and the start of preseason?
Pete mentioned that we had to be prepared for a situation like that.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 5:50 PM PST up reply actions
This is why I think he'll be back and can understand why Pete said what he said.
But if an understanding of the system (a system thats being shuffled) gets you what we got out of Hasselbeck last season then whats really the value there?
Matt didn't really get the system for a long time
At first he was too loose, then he was too tight. Pete thinks Matt figured things out later in the season.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 6:09 PM PST up reply actions
You realize it isn't "cutting" a player when he no longer has a contract?
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 20, 2011 12:41 AM PST up reply actions
Pete mentioned that Charlie needed more starts to grow as a QB
and that it wasn’t fair to evaluate him based on 2 games started.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 5:52 PM PST up reply actions
I agree.
I think you’re right, but if the plan is to draft a QB of the future doesn’t starting him too soon increase the chances of him busting out? I don’t see the problem is having Hasselbeck be the bad QB starting ahead of the guy of the future while we rebuild instead of it being someone else.
I don't love it
But i don’t see it as one of the dumbest things this team could do. I’m not saying that the Saints game is indicative of what he can/will do next year, but he did it. He still has the ability to be sharp.
Bad quarterbacks have good games.
Derek Anderson had a great season in 2007.
by John Morgan on Jan 19, 2011 5:23 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Lot of it was luck
Remember that floater he threw that nearly killed Owen Schmitt?
Fire Gus "What's a screen?" Bradley.
Are you sure you're not thinking about the pump fake on the streak over the top that Wallace uncorked on the first play of the Eagles game?
That one was 90 and Koren had to zig-zag because he wasn’t fast enough to just out run the defense
by BrettJMiller on Jan 19, 2011 8:22 PM PST up reply actions
I'll wait til it happens to freak out.
I’m going to try to be less reactionary this offseason. Last year was too much.
by DJ C-Raig on Jan 19, 2011 5:18 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Let's be honest here...
We have a winnable division right now, and within our options Hasselbeck gives us the best shot. I am all for getting a young guy via draft, but what if said QB isn’t worth a top pick? Unless Locker/Newton/Mallet fall to #25, or we make a serious jump on draft day, what are you going to do?
START CHARLIE AND BLOW IT UP! This is a terrible idea. We can build other areas of our team while keeping Hass around. I mean, adding Okung and Thomas will definitely be more beneficial in the long-term than stretching for a QB that’s not worth a top pick. Imagine if we drafted Clausen with #11 instead of Thomas? He doesn’t appear to be a real-deal NFL caliber QB, so I’m happy that we didn’t break..
I hope Locker falls to #25, and we groom him into the future. While this is highly unlikely, why not bring in strategic free agents and another great draft in the meantime? Our team will only get better from here out, and I really don’t see the good in cutting a solid vet QB, who has proven to be an outstanding leader.
Build for the future while still competing! It worked this year ladies and gents.
Ka-Kaaa!
Actually, nothing about this year worked unless you think Carroll has the power to make division rivals worse.
by John Morgan on Jan 19, 2011 5:25 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
As bad as 7-9 may seem, it sure is a step up for this team...
Given the rag-tag randoms that assembled our team, a 7-9 team is pretty outstanding. The success stories vastly outweigh the negatives…BMW, Okung, Thomas, Obo, Stokely, Clemons, Bryant (to name a few)..
Only really bumming off Wilson and Sims at this point. And not really bumming too hard.
Ka-Kaaa!
The only step up this year was Kurt Warner retiring
by B.B.Finnegan on Jan 19, 2011 5:32 PM PST up reply actions
Same players as the year before
Without an all pro QB putting up points, and instead several who constantly put the defense in bad positions, it fell apart.
by B.B.Finnegan on Jan 19, 2011 5:37 PM PST up reply actions
Also a terrible switch to 3-4
This was in no way the same Cards D. Their D collapsed.
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 20, 2011 10:49 AM PST up reply actions
They have been a 3-4 for a few years
They didn’t just switch last year.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 20, 2011 11:21 AM PST up reply actions
Incorrect
They ran a hybrid 3-4/4-3 for years. The switch to full 3-4 didn’t happen until last year. Losing key players combines with this to make a pretty awful defense. Which is why they fired their DC.
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 20, 2011 11:33 AM PST up reply actions
That's not what I understand
From the Card’s Scout.com site:
The Cardinals moved to a 3-4 base defense when Ken Whisenhunt took over as coach in 2007, but they have yet to gather the type of personnel they need to operate it effectively.
http://ari.scout.com/2/1032876.html
From the Cards blog:
The Cardinals have used more of the four down linemen look the past two games in an effort to slow opposing running attacks and, more importantly, to make up for injuries at linebacker. This has caused more than a few of you out there to wonder/inquire about/insist the Cardinals switch from a 3-4 base defense to a 4-3.
I have mentioned before it wasn’t going to happen, but since coach Ken Whisenhunt talked about it today: "As far as making a wholesale change, that’s not something I even want to consider right now."
The Cardinals have never abandoned using 4-3 looks, and the defense has been a bit of a hybrid since Whisenhunt arrived. The 3-4 bent has become more pronounced as the years went on, in large part because the Cards have made the effort to bring in players that fit that scheme better. That’s precisely why nothing will change. It’s easy to look at defensive linemen like Calais Campbell, Darnell Dockett, Alan Branch, Gabe Watson, Dan Williams and Bryan Robinson and think the better players right now are on the line than linebacker.
http://blog.azcardinals.com/2010/12/27/the-flip-of-43-and-34/
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 20, 2011 12:44 PM PST up reply actions
So, uh, what is it exactly you don't understand?
Official “base” defense aside, they mixed it up a lot in previous years, and this year was the first I saw them use primarily 3-4 looks, which worked out terribly, hence the tons of 4-3 looks later on. Which is pretty much what the blog piece says.
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 20, 2011 12:52 PM PST up reply actions
They've been trying to run the 3-4 since 2007
and have had to run hybrid defenses off and on because of personnel issues. Their decline this year wasn’t because they just switched to a 3-4, it was because they had personnel issues. In fact, they had to mix in some 4-3 because they were having trouble running the 3-4.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 20, 2011 1:05 PM PST up reply actions
I thought you said that they finally switched to a 3-4 this year
but its a pointless, pedantic argument.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 20, 2011 1:23 PM PST up reply actions
And Singletary being...Singletary
I expect a much tougher division next year with the changes at both St Louis and San Fran
San Fran still needs a QB.
Don’t know how much improved they’ll be until we see it.
St. Louis is the only one we know will be better…
Ka-Kaaa!
They can have Nate Davis
We’ll let him go for, say, a fourth round pick?
I think we will see addition by subtraction with the coaching change at the very least
They are a talented team (except for the whole QB thing), but is our QB situation THAT much better?
It actually is..
Even Charlie Whitehurst is better than the QB’s they had last year.
I won’t doubt for one second that QB is priority #1 for Carroll and team, and that Hasselbeck isn’t in the long term plans.
Ka-Kaaa!
I am not convinced SF QBs are that much worse than ours
We will have to agree to disagree. I would put money on the 49rs being “real” next year, and are much likelier to have a better record than the Hawks, given the current trajectories and coaching changes.
However, there is always a chance Tom Cable may work magic on the O-line. I can always hope.
There are no statistics to back that claim.
Most of my cliches aren't original.
- Chuck Knox
by Azimeir on Jan 19, 2011 7:17 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
actually
Alex Smith and Troy Smith both performed much better than Hasselbeck did last year…just the facts.
Ok then..
Would you rather have Hasselbeck or Troy/Alex Smith right now?
I will laugh out loud if the answer is yes.
Ka-Kaaa!
I would, too. Why would someone answer yes to an either/or question?
by Lanky on Jan 20, 2011 11:59 AM PST up reply actions 6 recs
Yes, because at least they aren't 36-year-old dinosaurs that are guaranteed to break for a few games a season.
I’d rather have Seneca Wallace than either of those three, but at least the young ones have some upside, potentially. And feel free to laugh out loud, if it makes you feel better about your ridiculous opinion. :)
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 12:00 PM PST up reply actions
Alex Smith had a -5.4% DVOA, Hasselbeck's was -9.8%
I hate Alex Smith…but he’s better than what Matt is now.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 3:24 PM PST up reply actions
Alex Smith should have better numbers considering how many weapons he have
Gore, Westbrook, Crabtree, Davis, Morgan
I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul - Invictus
Williams, Butler, Tate, Obomanu, Carlson, Morrah, Lynch, Forsett...
Plus Westbrook is like 85 now
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 9:24 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah but who would've thought they were gonna break out
I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul - Invictus
The point is they're not much worse, if at all.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 21, 2011 12:03 AM PST up reply actions
You're comparing weapons like Crabtree, Davis and Gore
to Williams, Carlson, and Lynch/Forsett? Wow.
Just wow.
Crabtree, elite WR talent. Williams, big receiver can’t get any separation. At all.
Davis, perhaps top TE in the NFL. Carlson, not even good.
Gore, powerful multi-purpose back with explosion. Lynch/Forsett, both have glaring flaws.
Dude. I love the Seahawks too. But these comparisons are just not even close.
"Davis, perhaps the best TE in the NFL?"
Really?
Are you talking blocking or receiving, because if receiving that’s a massive overstatement that Dallas Clark, Antonio Gates and Jason Witten shake their head at. He’s nowhere near their ability, and there are another 10 who are “perhaps the top TE in the NFL” if Davis is (i.e. there are another 10 his equal.)
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 21, 2011 11:09 AM PST up reply actions
Ok
Crabtree is an elite talent who hasn’t shown the football skills to be a great WR yet. Talent isn’t everything. Williams got separation fairly consistently this year, and even if he doesn’t, he can still catch the ball with his size. He’s the guy you throw to in double coverage because you know he’s gonna bring it down anyway.
Davis is better than Carlson, but I don’t think he’s even a top 5 TE.
Gore is injury prone, and hasn’t really improved much in years. Forsett can receive as good or better than Gore. Gore’s a better rusher than either, but he’s probably a top 15-20 RB, not top 10.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 21, 2011 1:24 PM PST up reply actions
Also..
How is it so easy to say “nothing about this team worked?” Seems pretty negative for a team that has proven a lot under Carroll’s first year.
Ka-Kaaa!
At this current rate
It’s only winnable if Bradford has a sophomore slump and Arizona doesn’t got after a competent QB.
Fire Gus "What's a screen?" Bradley.
At this rate
we’ve added or built up 5 impact players that did not impact last years team (BMW, Bryant, Clemons, Thomas, Okung, Washington) and that’s leaving out guys that jumped in late and made an impact down the stretch like Obo, Brock and Stokley. I would also contend that everyones opinion on the Cole signing has changed a bit under this new regime as well, so you might be able to add him to the list.
If most of those guys stay and build on this years success, and the team can keep up the rate of adding more players of that caliber, I don’t see why we can’t expect this team to get better. Our schedule will get much harder, so it might not be totally reflected in our record, but it might show in the quality of our wins and losses.
by Mind of no mind on Jan 19, 2011 8:44 PM PST up reply actions
Out of curiosity
How did BMW, Bryant, Okung, Washington, etc not impact last year’s team? Washington in particular helped win the San Diego game for us with his returns.
by splintrdmind on Jan 19, 2011 9:26 PM PST up reply actions
Pretty sure he means they were not impact players in '09
but emerged in ’10 to be highly productive, and in the case of BMW, Thomas and Okung, foundational players.
by SmartAssCoug on Jan 19, 2011 9:29 PM PST up reply actions
Ah.
I fail at reading comprehension. He explains that in his last paragraph.
by splintrdmind on Jan 19, 2011 9:35 PM PST up reply actions
Orton's a better shot. Way better.
Most of my cliches aren't original.
- Chuck Knox
by Azimeir on Jan 19, 2011 7:13 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
You have to factor in our tough schedule next year before you claim the division is winnable
I haven’t looked at the rest of the teams in our division’s schedules, but ours doesn’t look fun
Eh, there's no way to predict how tough our schedule will actually be.
Shit changes so much year to year.
by purplepansy on Jan 20, 2011 11:39 AM PST up reply actions
Although Carroll may have never said specifically that the QB position needs to be improved...
he did say “I feel there is great need to get the quarterback position as good as it can get, and whatever that takes we are going to do that. If the draft allows us an opportunity we are going to look at it just like you would want us to. If there’s a really good prospect right there, we are going to go get that guy. And if there isn’t we are going to move on to the next option.”
"Whatever it takes"
sounds like they will be looking to improve and not just sitting back with Hass and Whitehurst.
Right, but then he goes on to talk about the draft and if they have a QB they like, they'll get him.
I guess I’m just in the camp where if I’m believing Hass is actually their #1 priority, then I’m believing that they’ll draft a QB they like as well.
What's he supposed to say?
If a quarterback we like falls to us, we won’t take him?
I will support this hypothetical quarterback selection when they are actually selected. It’s totally independent of re-signing Hasselbeck.
Here's a hypothetical...
The Seahawks select a quarterback in the draft. You like that quarterback, and feel that quarterback is the future franchise quarterback. You’d still rather have Whitehurst as the 2011 starting quarterback and mentor?
If yes, I guess I’ll just never understand why.
Why not go with Hasselbeck when you envision the new guy as the future anyway? If you insist Whitehurst is better than Hasselbeck in 2011… I guess that’s just what you insist.
I don’t see how the hypothetical quarterback selection and the Hasselbeck signing can be taken independently. We’re not operating in a vacuum. Context is relevant.
You assume PC is telling the truth.
All The Way, AIRBORNE!!!
by Airborne Hawk Guy on Jan 19, 2011 5:26 PM PST reply actions
What does PC gain by lying?
I mean, at this point, what does he get by saying, “Oh, yeah, we want Matt back!” It’s not the season anymore. He doesn’t have to show confidence in his guy.
It placates most Seahawk fans.
And puts Field Gulls on suicide watch.
All The Way, AIRBORNE!!!
by Airborne Hawk Guy on Jan 19, 2011 5:34 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
The proof is in the pudding
You think the plan is to come out, say that re-signing Matt is a great idea, but then reluctantly come back two months later and say, “We wanted to, but we just couldn’t get a deal done.”
Have you paid attention to sports in the last 10 years?
This happens every season in every sport.
All The Way, AIRBORNE!!!
by Airborne Hawk Guy on Jan 19, 2011 5:37 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, I hear you
But I rarely hear the statements with such confidence. You don’t go out and say, “Oh, that’s our top priority,” for a guy you’re gonna let walk.
Regardless, we’re all reading the tea leaves. You’re right to remind us that what they say is less important than what they do.
I don't think PC has a good grasp of separating coach from his personnel position.
Not every answer to the press needs be full of optimism.
All The Way, AIRBORNE!!!
by Airborne Hawk Guy on Jan 19, 2011 5:46 PM PST up reply actions
PC is contradicting his "Always Compete" philosophy with this proclamation that Hass will start next year.
While PC may be trying to resign Hass, I don’t think Hass gets the keys to our listing ship. Does resigning Hass preclude upgrading the position through other means?
All The Way, AIRBORNE!!!
by Airborne Hawk Guy on Jan 19, 2011 5:43 PM PST up reply actions
BTW, I know Hass sucks.
I just have a hard time believing PC doesn’t know this as well.
All The Way, AIRBORNE!!!
by Airborne Hawk Guy on Jan 19, 2011 5:55 PM PST up reply actions
I don't think his competition philosophy applies to QBs.
The Matt Barkley/Aaron Corp “competition” was a total sham.
All The Way, AIRBORNE!!!
by Airborne Hawk Guy on Jan 19, 2011 5:57 PM PST up reply actions
In the same press conference that he said Matt was the presumptive starter
He said that Matt will have to compete for his job, that they want to improve the position, that they’d look at getting a 1st-round QB, that Charlie needed more starts and that the QB position will be like every other position in regards to competition.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 5:57 PM PST up reply actions
I was hoping against hope that this was spin coming from Pete but nope
This is a LOT like what happened with Carolina and its commitment to Delhomme that kept them from seriously addressing the QB situation.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
I've got to believe
that even if Hasselbeck goes into next season as the presumptive starter, that he’s going to have a much shorter leash than he did this year. There were signs of that toward the end of the season, where he was pulled in favor of Whitehurst against the…Bucs, I think, and against the Rams where Whitehurst started when Hasselbeck might have been able to.
If he goes into next year and struggles the same way that he did this year, I think that Carrol will give some thought to pulling him more often than he did this year. Holding onto Whitehurst is an option, albeit not an especially good one. But in the Rams game, he showed signs of being a relatively able emergency QB, though that was against a rather poor pass defense. But definitely a step in the right direction.
Like I’ve said before, perhaps PC doesn’t see the logic of letting go of a homegrown QB who definitely wants to stay here in favor of another veteran QB who would be only a moderate upgrade and an expensive short-term solution. And with our late draft pick, the chances of a new franchise QB falling to us are slim. We could trade up, but I don’t think he wants to, and I certainly don’t want him to. The QB position is a problem, but so are a lot of other places on the team, and I’d rather fill several holes in the roster with the draft than blow our wad on a single position.
We’ve signed Nate Davis from the 49’ers, pretty much the same day he was cut, so it’s obvious that Carrol thinks there’s something worthwhile in him. And just because we don’t stretch for a true franchise QB doesn’t mean that we won’t dip into the second-tier QB pool with a 2nd or 3rd round pick. Just because we’re not making an obvious move toward a Kolb, a Young, or a draft pick like Luck, doesn’t necessarily mean that we’re not making any moves at all.
So for conclusions: Hasselbeck goes into next season as the presumptive starter, with a great deal more support scheme-wise, but a lot less tolerance. Unlike the previous administration, the Q/PM are by no means ignoring the QB dilemma (signing and spending the resources on Whitehurst are proof of that), but they think that the many other holes in the roster are of a higher priority.
I wouldn't read too much into signings
PC and team have shown that roster churn is a way of life, and they aren’t hung up on sunk costs. I think they want to see what they’ve got in Nate Davis, but as soon as someone more talented comes along he’s gone.
The issue is this
You could go to the market and potentially—without being unrealistic—do better with a short timer than Hass.
McNabb would be a step up. Orton would be a step up via trade. Neither of those is a guy you “build” around or need to make a long-term commitment to.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
I think, like last year, Pete thinks our chances of getting a good QB in the draft are slim
And sees Matt as the best option to win in the meantime. I’m not sure I agree (has he even looked at any free agent options yet this year? Perhaps he will), but I think that’s what it comes down to.
They want the world for Kolb.
We don’t have a high enough first rounder. He’s also pretty unproven.
Giving away 1/2 our draft picks for Kolb is like paying 17mil a season for Asomugha. Carroll is no Al Davis.
I don't beleive there is a QB on the trading block that is worth the picks.
I suspect Pete agrees or we would go that route.
Don't trade then.
Sign someone. Do what the Cardinals did. Their quarterback situation was a mess, they were still almost as good as the Seahawks, and now they have a shot at a franchise quarterback.
The only move that can ensure Seattle makes no progress is re-signing Hasselbeck. Any other move is a step in the right direction, even if it takes a while.
What if they just resign Hass
then draft a rookie and cut Hass or bench him? I guess I’m confused on why this is not possible.
Huh?
The crowd loved when Matt was benched. You think Pete makes decisions based on fan reaction?
That was when Hasselbeck turned it over for fun
Cutting him after those last two games would cause an uproar.
Fire Gus "What's a screen?" Bradley.
Bah, i think this is overrated.
the fans know Matt’s on his last legs.
by B.B.Finnegan on Jan 19, 2011 6:01 PM PST up reply actions
Really?
Because I’ve heard an awful lot of people think he’s good for two, three, even four more years.
Ridiculous to us, but in general the consensus is repeated over and over by the casual fan that we “just need to support him and put a decent team around Matt and we’ll be fine.”
Ugh.
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 20, 2011 12:50 AM PST up reply actions
Again, I'm not sure Pete makes decisions based on fan reaction.
If he does, I guess it’s too bad he’s not a Field Guller.
I call BS
There is no way PC bases his personnel decisions on fan reaction. And you’re also assuming Matt won’t provide PC with ample opportunities to bench his ass if he is starting for us next year. Given his performance over the last 1/3 decade, I’m sure that – if he were wont to wait for the tides of fan passion to turn – Carrol would have many situations in which he could bench Hass without upsetting the fans.
by somethingwitty on Jan 19, 2011 11:56 PM PST up reply actions
I guess you've never heard the "Charlie! Charlie!" chants at Qwest
I heard them when we played the Saints.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 5:59 PM PST up reply actions
He's not even signed yet
so we have no idea how much guaranteed money would even be involved.
Or giving player the boot
ala Housh.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 6:10 PM PST up reply actions
It affects the team's cap room.
We were able to cut Housh this year with no issues because it’s a uncapped season. It’s incredibly unlikely that the new CBA won’t have a salary cap as well.
Exactly.
You can’t hand Charlie the starting job. There is no QB in the draft ready to start.
So, you sign Matt (and have him compete with Charlie) or you give up a pick or two to get a QB that MIGHT be better then Matt or Charlie.
I feel like the Seahawks need to resign him in that regard. They don’t want to give up picks.
by BigWalt on Jan 19, 2011 5:42 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Actually, you can hand Charlie the starting job. It really is that easy.
That’s certainly not the only option, maybe not the best, but it certainly is an option.
It's now become my top priority to stop Carroll's top priority of retaining Hasselbeck
Who is with me?!
Fire Gus "What's a screen?" Bradley.
by SSreporters on Jan 19, 2011 5:42 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Tell me your plan then.
What would YOU do about the QB situation. I’m not being ass, I actual want you to tell me something that makes me go “that is a god idea!”.
I don’t see another option (read my posts just above).
"That is a god idea!"
Pretty sure that’s just starting Whitehurst.
Fire Gus "What's a screen?" Bradley.
Step One: Start Whitehurst
Step Two: ???
Step Three: Profit!
If I knew how to do that
I’d be the first GM elected to the Hall of Fame with my five consecutive Super Bowls and drafting six cloned younger brothers of Tom Brady with six 7th round picks.
With no back-up plan?
Just hand the job to a guy that has shown little?
I’m not against handing the starting job to him actually. But we need a #2 QB that can step in if he fails or gets injured, I don’t see one in the draft for this year and do we want to burn picks. Signing Matt just cost $.
I love Matt. He's fiery and sharp and has a great sense of humor.
He’s also the greatest QB in the history of the franchise. And I would like to replace him.
by abender20 on Jan 19, 2011 6:04 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
thank you
for saying exactly how I feel. I don’t want another embarrassing season for someone who should retire proud.
From The Hawks Nest - Seahawks Podcast
http://www.http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/from-the-hawks-nest/id385227705
by Hancock.Brett on Jan 19, 2011 8:46 PM PST up reply actions
I would love to have a replacement for Matt..
But not when there clearly isn’t one right now.
Unless we get Vince Young to join (with the understanding that he’d have to compete for the spot), or draft someone in the first worthy of the pick, I don’t want to force something if it isn’t there.
I pray we find the long term answer sooner rather than later, but also understand that even Hasselbeck is a better option than nothing right now.
Ka-Kaaa!
Matt is not a better option than Charlie right now.
Who was the guy from Rutgers? We could sign him back up, give him a shot.
The point is we HAVE TO GO GET A REPLACEMENT
And signing Matt is just putting it off even further. We’ve been putting it off for 3 or 4 years now. Why put it off for another? Matt is better than literally no QB taking the snap, yes, but I mean, Tavaris Jackson may be better than Hasselbeck now, and he’s a young free agent with some upside at least.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 12:02 PM PST up reply actions
I think it depends on the deal we sign with Matt.
If they sign him to a short-term deal that would not cost us much (if anything) if we cut him, then I’m okay with it. That could allow us to find FA replacements and/or draft replacements.
by splintrdmind on Jan 20, 2011 3:12 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, but can you honestly see the Seahawks cutting Hasselbeck?
Best case scenario, he goes to the bench and is unhappy about it. And if the other QB plays poorly, calls for him to be re-inserted into the starting lineup will come.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 3:25 PM PST up reply actions
Depends on what other options they have.
And how he plays. Yes, I could see them cutting him if the money issue isn’t there and they bring in other options who out play him.
by splintrdmind on Jan 20, 2011 4:39 PM PST up reply actions
Before these playoff games
He had 12 touchdowns and 17 interceptions. Teams would be ludicrous to have convenient long-term memory loss.
Fire Gus "What's a screen?" Bradley.
But, but, but, he will sustain his playoff ratio into next year and beyond
That’s 56 tds and only 8 int’s for the next year, guaranteed.
by B.B.Finnegan on Jan 19, 2011 6:00 PM PST up reply actions
How about taking a risk on someone unknown, and starting the process of replacing Hasselbeck.
Sign a free agent, trade for someone that’s unwanted but not too expensive, draft someone and roll the dice. Anything that breaks the cycle.
Lets make list then.
Who is there that we could reasonable trade for and/or not lose high picks?
Orton?
Kolb, Young, McNabb.
Two of those three might get released and one of them should sign for cheap.
Fire Gus "What's a screen?" Bradley.
I highly doubt Kolb gets cut
He’s still under contract for at least another year, and for a relatively cheap price. I say they’ll keep him on as a backup QB while shopping him out as trade bait.
Well I said two of those three
Because it implies Young and McNabb.
Fire Gus "What's a screen?" Bradley.
They have made it clear they want way too much for Kolb.
Though with his trade demand they may lose leverage.
As much as I hate Hass, I hate McNabb a little more.
Funny, I don't see a rec given.
Lonely like cheese and baloney only / I could've broke my sacroiliac
Silly grind, Billy Jack, illy nine milli black - MF DOOM
by Wayward Llama on Jan 20, 2011 6:03 PM PST up reply actions
Given BigWalt's "argument" on McNabb
I’m guessing d0nkey’s comment was heavily laden with slimy, dripping sarcasm.
"Retarded isn't a race." -Thingray
by Matt Erickson on Jan 23, 2011 7:55 PM PST up reply actions
Orton MIGHT be doable
John Elway seems to think that Tebow is the second coming of…well…John Elway, so I think he lets him go relatively cheap. Say, a 2nd round pick? The problem is, every other team that wants a relatively cheap QB will be swarming like sharks for the exact same reason.
I hear Alex Smith may be available
oh boy
by B.B.Finnegan on Jan 19, 2011 5:54 PM PST up reply actions
That's a disaster
I’m not willing to take 6 years of failure on my roster.
Fire Gus "What's a screen?" Bradley.
What would I do?
I would not keep Hasselbeck because 2 good performances < The rest of the season.
Losman would be dumped and we’d be down to Whitehurst. In April I’d go out of my way to draft a QB in the first two rounds, whether it would be Mallett, Newton, Locker, etc. and then probably stick with Nate Davis as 3rd string.
Hasselbeck’s playoff performances, while good, are EXACTLY what I feared would happen to open up the possibility of re-signing him.
Fire Gus "What's a screen?" Bradley.
Mallett, Newton, Locker, etc.
Could be all gone by 25 and are 2-3 year projects.
Nate Davis and Whitehurst as you starting 2?
Personally I’d rather have Hass and Charlie, but if you disagree that’s a valid for sure.
Hass and Charlie again is basically delaying the process AGAIN
I’d rather fail with one of those guys than succeed with Matt.
Fire Gus "What's a screen?" Bradley.
Whitehurst/Free Agent (Drew Stanton?)/Rookie QB
Now, if the Seahawks are going to keep Matt around, then I would not be totally adverse to the idea of signing a Free Agent, drafting a rookie (in the 1st or 2nd round), and waiving Whitehurst. If Carroll insists on nailing Charlie’s ass to the bench again next season, I’d rather the Seahawks bring in another QB that might inspire a touch more faith.
2006 - Present Seattle Seahawks:
A commitment to mediocrity
This really has become worse than the Shaun situation
But if it is a carbon copy of the Shaun situation, Hasselbeck will go down to injury, Whitehurst will perform at an above-average level and prove himself more capable than Hass, then they both leave in 2012. Well I’m not sure who is the Julius Jones and Marshawn Lynch’s of the NFL’s starting QBs but I will create the equivalence!
Fire Gus "What's a screen?" Bradley.
If I have learned anything about Pete Carrol it is this...
he talks a lot. The things he says (publicly at least) often are contradicted by his actions. His comments about Hasselbeck seemed pretty heat of the moment to me. My gut tells me that if Hasselbeck is back it will a short insentive laden deal. Color me an optimist.
Even if Seattle does want to keep Matt
I think he’d be foolish (from a football perspective) to re-sign here. He needs to sign with a team that is ready to compete now. If I’m Matt, I arrange a meeting in Minnesota the second a new CBA is reached, and hope and pray that a deal get done. If not Minnesota, then perhaps Miami. And if worse comes to worse, I’d sign in Arizona and attach my fate to the glorious hands of Larry Fitzgerald.
This just seems like a situation where both parties would be better off looking to the future.
What makes you think?
That anyone in their right mind would want Hasselbeck? He has been one of the worst QBs in the entire league for 3 years now using any type of objective measure. Not to mention he is old, can barely move (unless it’s to get into the fetal position) and is injury prone.
But the biggest black stain is his price. I think he made $10m per year this year! I’d rather start Joe Webb and hope for the best (i’m completely and utterly serious about Webb by the way).
I've seen Jake Delhomme get a long term contract extension after throwing 5 INTs in a home playoff game
and then Mike “offensive genius” Holmgren sign Delhomme to a $7 million a year contract after Delhomme posted a an 18 INT 8 TD regular season in 2009. And in the past few days, I’ve seen Jim Mora Jr turn down not one, but two defensive coordinator jobs. Simply put, bad personnel moves are the norm in this league.
Hell, some QB desperate team probably would have talked themselves into Hasselbeck even without his miracle playoff run. But now? I’d say it’s a done deal that he’ll be a hot commodity. As unpalatable as you may think Hasselbeck’s salary is, a team like the Vikings already has the fourth highest payroll in the NFL, and they wouldn’t think twice about paying $10+ million for Hasselbeck if they thought he could help them. They offered Favre a deal that could have reached $20 million this season.
John, what would you do right now as GM?
Cut Hass and stick with Charlie?
Go after a free agent QB?
Wait for the draft?
Ka-Kaaa!
Hass is a FA and ergo can't be cut.
But I would let him sign elsewhere… draft a QB and sign a veteren.
Perhaps Delhomme will be released from the Panthers
by B.B.Finnegan on Jan 19, 2011 6:06 PM PST up reply actions
Ask yourself this
Do you really really want another year of potential disasters like these?


And of course the Falcons game that got him benched, but I don’t have a screencap.
Fire Gus "What's a screen?" Bradley.
Whoa, i just noticed from that photo that we have signed Shane Falco
NM, we are set at the QB position
Honestly, at last half of Hasselbeck's INTs are not even his fault.
He finished really strong against the Saints and Bears. Give him another year with Stokley and BMW. He did well in the games when the O-line was stable, and the running game was never a threat. The team all-around will be better next year, and he deserves another shot.
I don't think many on this site would object to Hasselbeck coming back next year
we just don’t want a long term/big money deal of any sort
Exactly
He had his big money contract signed following the ‘05 season. With what he’s shown, I’d say we give him a 2-3 year deal with most of the money in incentives and benchmarks. Hell, make the incentives huge, for all I care! I wouldn’t mind him getting $20 mil for a season like he had in ’07.
Yeah, unrestricted free agent money is totally different than if they had re-worked a deal during the year...
evan a short-term one is still going to be expensive for the seahawks, because there are crappier teams who’d play Hasselbeck (especially in the NFC West). The Seahawks will need to pony up to sign UFA Hasselbeck to prevent him from becoming the new qb in Arizona of San Fran.
I don't know what your problem is, but I bet it's really hard to pronounce!
I don't beleive in that Hugh.
Unless it bounces off the receivers hands and is INT’d, it’s the QBs fault.
He through the ball.
Let's see
INT #1 – Throws a poor pass which Clements picks.
INT #2 – Drive-killing, point-removing INT to Champ Bailey.
INT #3 – Another one to Dawkins.
INT #4 – “The blowout INT” to Cox.
INT #5 – Contested deep ball to a well covered BMW against SD.
INT #6 – Already poor pass takes unfortunate deflection at STL.
INT #7 – Unlucky INT off of Butler’s hands.
INT #8 – I can’t remember the INT against KC exactly but it was his fault.
INT #9 – Again, his fault.
INT #10 – Overthrow.
INT #11 – The one where Okung made the tackle.
INT #12 – Robinson drops it.
INT #13 – “Stubborn or stupid” says Billick.
INT #14 – Pick 6.
INT #15 – Fade to Stokley = Fail.
INT #16 – Don’t remember. (vs. ATL)
INT #17 – Triple coverage INT.
INT #18 – Off of Obo.
I’ve only seen 4 INTs where it was definitively not his fault. He’s a massive liability through fumble or by interception and two playoff games does not negate it.
Fire Gus "What's a screen?" Bradley.
by SSreporters on Jan 19, 2011 6:06 PM PST up reply actions 8 recs
I disagree with "massive liability"
I think he’s below average, but I still agree with your end game.
Assuming I’m right, do you really want to hand the football to your starting QB and as the music swells say, “Go on, son. Don’t fuck it up too bad.”
If anything, I thought the playoffs punctuated how different this team looks with competent QB play. Too bad I don’t trust Matt’s consistency.
Most of my cliches aren't original.
- Chuck Knox
by Azimeir on Jan 19, 2011 7:47 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Just curious John,
how do you calculate the win probablitity like when you mention Olindo Mare’s PAT pushes their win probability to 71%?
Here's the win probability calculator from ANFLS
http://wp.advancednflstats.com/winprobcalc1.php
Its mostly based on score differential and time remaining, but down/distance/field position also play a role.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 6:05 PM PST up reply actions
I'd rather we moved on from Hasselbeck too...
… but I’m not understanding how it would be a catastrophe to resign him to a short deal as long as we also draft a good prospect to replace him when he’s ready.
Some rookie QBs are ready to start day one. Most probably aren’t. Some teams are already complete enough that a rookie can step in and find solid ground to build on. I don’t think this team is one of them.
I’ll be furious if we resign Hass and DON’T draft a replacement. But resigning Hass is not the end of the world, and I don’t think you can even argue that it dooms the franchise to anything more than one more year of bad QB play.
I feel that if Hasselbeck is re-signed
Seattle won’t draft an early round replacement.
Fire Gus "What's a screen?" Bradley.
And I believe that isn't true.
I guess that’s why we have mildly different opinions on this.
Would Seattle willingly sign Hasselbeck
Keep Whitehurst, and draft a QB (let’s say Andy Dalton) in the first 2-3 rounds and keep them all?
I don’t think that’s going to happen.
Fire Gus "What's a screen?" Bradley.
I don't think they'd have a problem letting go of Whitehurst at all
by B.B.Finnegan on Jan 19, 2011 6:12 PM PST up reply actions
This is the most likely scenario
Outside of mine.
But it’d be stupid to waste a 3rd rounder on him and then give up on him after 4 games played.
Fire Gus "What's a screen?" Bradley.
It'd be stupid to 49er it up and stick to a player who's never going to be any good
by B.B.Finnegan on Jan 19, 2011 6:19 PM PST up reply actions
Because they didn't know yet if he was any good but the potential was there
Are you really asking that?
by B.B.Finnegan on Jan 19, 2011 6:53 PM PST up reply actions
And you are assuming Charlie will never be any good.
I don’t think you can make that assumption given the lack of opportunity to evaluate. That’s the the same thing as giving a guy several years of not being good and not moving on…. which, honestly, I can’t see how we can call “49er it up” when we’ve done the same thing… only with an aging deteriorating QB instead of a high talent high ceiling “hasn’t gotten it yet” QB.
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 20, 2011 12:59 AM PST up reply actions
This is the frustrating part.
Where is the line between “has potential/still invested in” and “sunk cost, move on” when it comes to Whitehurst?
This is what is so frustrating to me about Clipboard Jesus this year – we can’t tell where this line was, if it was crossed, or even if it was ever drawn. Is it too early to let him go? Do we accept that he just isn’t whatever Q/PM thought they saw in him?
Well Pete said 2 games wasn't enough to evaluate.
So it doesn’t sound like he has crossed the line yet.
I don't think 2 games is enough either
But the fact that there is a non-zero chance of Charlie moving on this offseason made me wonder.
With this regime, there's a non-zero chance for everyone, right?
But it would seem really weird to decide they don’t know what they have in him, but they’re not going to keep him to find out.
Interesting conundrum for thought
By winning his 2nd start in a rather so-so performance against the Rams, did Charlie inadvertently relegate himself back to 3rd string?
If we lose and are picking at 8th, I think it’s easier to justify letting Matt walk if one assumes the rationale for bringing Matt back stems from uncertainty (we can’t count on someone being there at #25 and the FA period is in flux).
If we draft a QB at 8th, Charlie would either begin the season as starter or backup. However, if we re-sign Matt, there’s still the potential Locker or Mallett is there at #25. If one is then picked, and Matt is on the roster, Charlie is either a roster cut or relegated back to 3rd string.
by SmartAssCoug on Jan 20, 2011 10:26 AM PST up reply actions
Interesting thought, and absolutely possible.
However, I hope that if Hass comes back next year, that Charlie is given more of a chance to prove that he either does or doesn’t have the ability to QB this team while we search/groom a franchise QB. Or better yet, make huge strides and become our franchise QB (not good odds, I know, but the possibility is there, however slight it may be).
Well, why not use (insert Future Franchise QB here) as the 3rd QB?
No one expects/hopes (insert Future Franchise QB here) to really start any games next year, whether Hasslebeck comes back or not. Ideally, our rookie would see game time only in blowouts one way or the other in order to get some seasoning.
The 3rd QB rule doesn’t specify that both QBs HAVE to be hurt in order for 3QB to play:
1) The two quarterbacks on the 45-player active list must be bona fide quarterbacks: a club is not permitted to designate as one of its two quarterbacks a player whose primary position is not quarterback.
2) It is not necessary that the club’s first two quarterbacks be injured in order for the third quarterback to participate; his participation is purely a coaching decision. Likewise, if the third quarterback initially enters the game during the fourth period or an overtime period, the permissible return of either of the club’s other two quarterbacks is purely a coaching decision.
3) Under no circumstances can the third quarterback participate in the game at the same time as either of the club’s other two quarterbacks.
Under these conditions, the 3rd QB wouldn’t be on the active roster. What would the ramifications of (insert Future Franchise QB here) being ‘inactive’ most/all year be?
He would still take up a spot on the 53 man roster. Right?
I guess I’m not really sure on this, it’s just how I’ve always understood it. Could be wrong.
He would have to be on the 53 man roster.
Otherwise any other team could sign him away from us for ther roster.
Mostly becuase you don't often see 1st round draft picks that far on the depth chart
Assuming, of course, said QB was acquired at #25. A guy drafted in the 3rd or later as a massive development project, someone with a minimal contract, can be justified as 3rd string.
by SmartAssCoug on Jan 20, 2011 2:38 PM PST up reply actions
Assuming said future-franchise QB is drafted in the 1st or 2nd round,
I’d rather see him get a bunch of snaps and lots of opportunity to grow and learn. I am not sure how much attention and experience a 3rd stringer gets.
If the situation is more around a 5-7th round “flyer” / long-shot, than, of course, the situation is different.
Why does Whitehurst have to stay?
Why does Hass have to stay? Pete specifically talked about the draft and drafting a QB if they like someone they see. If you don’t want to believe him when he says that, fine, but signing Hasselbeck does not guarantee that we won’t draft someone.
Because Pete thinks the QB position is the most important position in football
and you need quality QB play to get a championship and Pete wants competition at the QB position and all sorts of reasons that you’d probably like to ignore.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 6:15 PM PST up reply actions
I would take
Colin Kaepernick out of Nevada. He could be a deep round sleeper
I don't agree, if a QB is there that Schneider or Carroll like, I don't think they hesitate in taking him
Schneider was with Green Bay when they picked Rodgers despite already having Farve the legend. Carroll at USC had to always be looking for a replacement because of college. He understands it’s the most important position in football. If one’s there, they take him. This i do believe about these guys. I’m just not sure one will be there.
by B.B.Finnegan on Jan 19, 2011 6:10 PM PST up reply actions
You'd rather we stretched for a QB based on necessity?
People said the same thing last year with Clausen. Would you rather have him over Thomas?
Ka-Kaaa!
by JerryNice on Jan 19, 2011 6:29 PM PST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Lots of people suggested he should have been the first guy off the board
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 6:46 PM PST up reply actions
Clausen
Honestly, I have no opinion on the guy – I don’t even know his number or what he looks like – but I know he spent his rookie, nightmarish season with a potentially very overrated, lame-duck, defensive-minded coach in a tough division and is already labled a sure bust.
I’m just saying.
Most of my cliches aren't original.
- Chuck Knox
by Azimeir on Jan 19, 2011 7:54 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
It's really bad because Matt's close to a mortal lock to be bad
You could go to the market with a blindfold on and improve the probability of getting competent play at the position.
When I read “why not just re-sign Matt?” it seems that people aren’t accounting for how godawful he has been. Seattle doesn’t need to re-sign Matt. Other QBs are available.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
Who would you rather have?
I guess Vince Young could be an option, but I’m struggling for more.
McNabb or Orton
Short term the probability that either will be better than Hasselbeck is close to 100%
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
I thought we didn't care about short term
and we wanted to find our franchise QB? Neither of these guys really gets us closer to that.
They move us away from where we are now
I think everyone has stipulated that the franchise guy probably won’t be on the roster next year.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
Oh?
I guess I’m the only one holding out hope that we draft a rookie franchise guy or trade for one like Kolb.
We may draft a guy
Lock or Mallett might end up at 25, but I wouldn’t bet the boy’s college fund on that—meager though it may be.
Either way, short term we could make a reasonable upgrade at QB and it may not even be more expensive than signing Hass.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
"Other QBs are available"
This is the problem with that argument. You start making a list (like above) and you see there really isn’t much unless you want to give a way high picks.
Collins, Volek, Grossman, Stanton.
Stanton is the only one with any upside but they’ve all outplayed Hasslebeck.
Young too, although you might have to give up something for him.
McNabb but he might be a little spendy. Orton depending on the Broncos asking price. Leinart.
There are definitely options.
Do you think Young fits the Carroll "I'm In" belief?
Maybe he does. I don’t see it.
I could see us cutting him 5 days later like L. White.
Oh course I don’t know the man. Maybe Carroll could light a fire under him.
I think so too
but I don’t think he’d risk the QB position on it like AZ did with Max Hall/Derek Anderson.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 6:37 PM PST up reply actions
He's going to risk the QB position on Matt
why not risk it on a player thats been quite a bit better?
With 1 week's practice?
We’ve got no idea what the FA period will look like or even if there will really be one. You can’t just go out any sign guys right now and no one knows when you can.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 6:44 PM PST up reply actions
Young, Orton
Kolb’s too expensive and hasn’t proven 10% of either of these two.
My personal darkhorse is Brady Quinn.
Orton is solid and still improving, just turned 28 and people forget he’s 6’5". People really downplay his lack of downside and underestimate his upside, I think. Had the Tebow revolution not gotten underway, would’ve thrown for 4,000 yards.
I think the last thing Young needs is a fire lit under or anywhere near him. Young strikes me as volitile (no shit?) but his problems don’t seem to come from not caring. 30-17 as a starter. Accuracy has gone up. Trouble staying on the field do to injury and off field crap. My guess? Someone will figure out how to coddle him just right and he’ll be a superstar.
Most of my cliches aren't original.
- Chuck Knox
by Azimeir on Jan 19, 2011 8:09 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
What is VY's contract status?
I’d love to trade a 6th (or lower) to get Vince, but the money he is still owed would definitely be a factor. Wonder if he has any balloon payments or other escalators that go into effect next season…
$8 million plus incentives.
But chances are that they’ll release Young if they can’t get anything for him.
I'll have to disagree.
I’d probably take Hass over any of these guys in a first time offense as a starter.
However, as a back up to Charlie, I could bite.
You might LIKE Hasselbeck more
but there is nothing even remotely objective to suggest that he is better than any of those guys on any dimension going forward.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
So you go from "bad" to "mediocre" and that brings us closer to a championship?
I thought the point was to get a franchise QB?
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 6:33 PM PST up reply actions
Improving the short term with one of those players and looking for a franchise QB are not mutually exclusive.
I thought's that the problem that John's suggested all year
Mediocre play at the QB position takes us out of contention for a high draft pick to take a franchise QB. Mediocre (but not bad play) also prevents us from “moving on”. I’m confused by all these arguments.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 6:37 PM PST up reply actions
I won't speak for John but I think you would have to catch him in a pretty good mood for him to call Matt's play mediocre.
The problem has been not jettisoning the old guard and constantly hoping for a revival. The Hawks have had multiple opportunities to try to find a replacement to Matt, they’ve had three picks before 15 the last two years, they just haven’t done it.
Think of it this way
There’s no justification for purposely choosing awful QB play with no hope for improvement from that guy.
You live with poor QB play from a young guy because you choose reasonable potential over known mediocrity every time.
What you don’t do is live actually sign up for poor QB play with no chance for improvement. It is the classic dominated alternative. Literally, any other choice is better than this.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
The difference between mediocre and objectively awful play at QB
allows you to start the process.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
How?
I think it takes you farther away from replacing the mediocre QB with a franchise QB. Better play leads to worse draft position and the scary idea that we might sign a mediocre guy to a long-term contract.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 6:39 PM PST up reply actions
This way
In the NFL the chances have to line up for you to get a “franchise QB.” Those chances may actually never come.
In the meantime, awful QB play is franchise paralyzing. You cannot truly build. A 2 win Seattle team next season still might not get Andrew Luck. You don’t choose awful QB play unless you are living through growing pains with a young guy.
On the other hand, mediocre QB play isn’t anything to strive for but it does allow you to start the process of building. You can try to add a QB in some non-traditional ways.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
Its pretty rare to find a franchise QB outside of a high draft pick
Its been mentioned here plenty of times and I’ve read it in other places as well.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 6:49 PM PST up reply actions
That's a fact
but you don’t sign up for bad QB play in hopes of getting a future high pick.
We’re most likely debating between different journeymen QBs here.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
You also can't expect the Seahawks to go into the 2011 season playing badly enough to get a top pick.
Even if the QB position is worse next year, other factors on the team could inflate our record so that we’re essentially in the same boat 12 months from now. Better to bring in as many freely-available QBs as possible (even if it’s just 1 or 2) and see if you can find a diamond in the rough.
No
You’re really underselling how awful Matt has been.
Matt has been one of the 3 or 4 worst QBs in the game for several years, For all the press about McNabb’s season he has not been Hasselbeck awful.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
There was a post by Sando I believe
that explained his INTs, but I can’t find it at the moment
I thought SS reporters did a pretty good job of chronicling Matt's int's this year
The other thing I keep thinking is that though he had a great last two game his passes still took quite a long time to get to his targets. Arm strength isn’t a tool that generally has a rebound year. In fact it generally decreases which is quite worrisome
"I call the big one Bitey."-Homer J. Simpson
by Willie Mays Haze on Jan 19, 2011 6:19 PM PST up reply actions
I did it for 2009 up to the first two weeks of 2010
I’m sure I’ll do it again for this season.
Fire Gus "What's a screen?" Bradley.
I'm waiting to see actual moves. When I see them re-sign Hass to a bad contract then I'll melt down.
You gotta start warming up now
If you start freaking out without stretching, you may pull a muscle or something.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 6:20 PM PST up reply actions
With this team I'm almost out of steam caring enough to get upset anymore.
I’ve kept hoping Carroll and the FO actually had a clue, or would prove us wrong. We won a playoff game improbably, but I really don’t think it had much to do with Carroll, at least as much as his cheerleading gets credit. I’ll root for the players and the team, but I’ve lost faith in the ability of our team to put the leadership in place to build a team.
I think a lot of people feel the same about Pete now as they did the day he was hired
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 6:29 PM PST up reply actions
Which is ludicrous.
Everyone I talk to that isn’t a Hawks fan thinks Pete is turning this franchise around. Bird’s eye view people!
Ka-Kaaa!
that's because they don't see the statistics
this team is not good… and got worse under Carroll.
I think this years team beats last years team in a game.
by Mind of no mind on Jan 19, 2011 9:08 PM PST up reply actions
Sure. A game of Madden.
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 20, 2011 1:05 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Without Carroll
We don’t beat the Chargers, Bears, one of the two Cardinals games, or the 9ers.
When your team is this tattered, winning games best off effort and will is all the coach. This was a cool year to watch b/c clearly we didn’t have a very strong amount of talent throughout.
It says a lot about a coach, especially given the shit show that was 2009.
Ka-Kaaa!
Carroll very clearly was the reason why Leon Washington accomplished the ridiculously improbable task of returning two kickoffs for touchdowns, I agree.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 12:03 PM PST up reply actions
Considering he otherwise wouldn't be a Seahawk, yes?
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 20, 2011 12:13 PM PST up reply actions
Ugh. Please don't make me a party to that.
It wasn’t a zing. It’s a simple, relevant fact. We could use more of them here.
I'm pretty sure the argument was that Carroll's coaching ability on game day is what won those games.
We played pretty poorly, outside of Leon, in the SD game.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 12:42 PM PST up reply actions
our stats say otherwise.
Record is one thing, but record by itself is only one thing. According to the numbers, the 2010 Seahawks were worse than the 2009 Seahawks.
6 years 120 million is what i'm hearing
by B.B.Finnegan on Jan 19, 2011 6:20 PM PST up reply actions
I heard Pete is making him a QB/OC
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 6:22 PM PST up reply actions
Just off Twitter
From PeteCarroll: Just promoted Matt to assistant HC. Baseball has player managers who I figured why not?
It was just a gritty, veteran choice
Pete didn’t even ask Charlie or JP for their suggestions.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 6:31 PM PST up reply actions
This just in!
Hasselbeck promoted to both Offensive and Defensive Coordinator!
According to Pete Carroll, "Matt has ran this offense superbly over the past eleven years. With so much on-the-ground experience, I can’t think of anyone better to help lead this team into the future.
Also, some people might think that naming him our new defensive coordinator is an unusual choice, I believe in our team’s veterans to make the right decision. When Matt came into my office with his ideas, like ‘We should do what other teams have been doing to us for three years!’, I was blown away. After implementing these revolutionary suggestions, our defense has improved immensely.
As for our other personnel moves, we had to cut Kelly Jennings. I suggested a butter knife, but Matt decided on a razor blade. The quick and relatively painless result showed that he made the right choice."
That'll help him lead the defense when he takes the field as the new MLB
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 6:40 PM PST up reply actions
I hear Paul Allen is going to hand over controlling interest in the team to Matt
The team will be called the Seattle Hasselbecks, and he’ll remain the starting QB as long as he damn well feels like it.
At least until Matt takes the team with him back to New England
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 8:03 PM PST up reply actions
I can see it now.
Carroll: Intern Joe — go forth onto the Internet and find out what we should do at QB!
Intern Joe: PM, John Morgan says it’s a terrible move to re-sign Hasselbeck. Some people don’t agree with him, but it seems like most do.
Carroll: Alright, well I guess we’re done with that. What else does the Internet want?
if they did I'd say we could have had a few more wins if they spent less time on the net
Someone track their internet usage. Doesn’t MSFT have a program for that
I seriously hope not
Blog title - Postgame: Seahawks 16 – Rams 6 by John Morgan
“The Seahawks must start Charlie Whitehurst next week. Call it momentum, call it riding the quarterback that got you there, call Matt Hasselbeck still too injured to play if he must, whatever Pete Carroll calls it, the Seahawks must start Whitehurst this Saturday against the New Orleans Saints”
Had they listened to this Armchair GM named John Morgan, I would have been robbed of what will be one of my favorite sports memories of all time. No Hasselbeck, Hawks would not have been in the position for a Marshawn Lynch 67 yard, run over everybody TD.
Or Whitehurst could've gone off. We'll never know, because it didn't happen.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 1:02 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah
At least Matt has done it before, and several times this year. Charlie has never done it, and don’t use the Rams game as evidence to the contrary. He had one awesome drive (the opening drive) and was just good enough to beat a crappy team.
You guys and your hard on for Charlie is almost becoming comical. He had chances this year, he either sucked or was barely passable for every one of them.
Several times this year=AZ2, NO2
When else did he really go off (not counting garbage time)
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 1:38 PM PST up reply actions
No one has a hard on for Charlie. He probably sucks.
But Matt didn’t really do much at all this year. Neither did Charlie. I’d prefer neither be on the 2011 roster. But if I had to take one, I’d take Charlie, because he’s at least got a little bit of upside, while Matt is all decline at this point.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 1:40 PM PST up reply actions
One more things: Go take a look at the game logs for the first two or three games of Matt Hasselbeck's career.
Did those numbers look any better than Charlie’s? Once again, I don’t even like Charlie. But Matt sucked in his first three-ish games (which is about how long Charlie has had to prove himself.)
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 1:41 PM PST up reply actions
Matt got 3 straight, team went 0-3, he looked terrible.
He was benched for Dilfer.
Charlie got two spot starts on short notice. He never got half the chance Matt did.
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 20, 2011 7:49 PM PST up reply actions
But somehow this evidence will continue to be totally overlooked!
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 9:24 PM PST up reply actions
Hey, it's an action league.
You get a chance, you gotta take advantage! Charlie got that chance, he didn’t.
I do love double standards!
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 20, 2011 10:05 PM PST up reply actions
big difference
Mike Holmgren saw something in Matt Hasselbeck. Obviously Pete hasn’t see anything in Charlie, otherwise he would have gotten more of a chance to start, not just in fill in duty. Plus, the job of a backup is to be ready to go in when the team needs you, so this whole short notice thing is crap, he has had years to prepare to get in the game.
Really I think this debate isn’t about Matt or Charlie, it’s about if you trust Pete to evaluate the talent of his players. We’re all armchair GMs here, I’m just guessing by the decisions the coaching staff has made, by what they see for this potential upside to Charlie, or decline of Matt. Personally, I think Matt has the ability, he did against New Orleans twice, against SF once and Chicago once this year, but can he be consistant? Smart money is on no to that question, but while everyone is bitching about this being a dumb move, making him a priority, maybe the coaches have looked at the alternatives and think that yes, this should be a priority. I’m starting to have a little faith in Pete, he took a team with no offense and no defense into the 2nd round of the playoffs, I’ll trust him for now, instead of bloggers
It's not crap, there is some validity to the "short notice thing."
Matt and Charlie have very different strengths and weaknesses. The coaching staff tries to develop a game plan that exploits the strengths and protects against the weaknesses of the starting QB. That plan is learned and practiced all week. If they game plan for Matt, but Charlie is forced into action, Charlie will not necessarily be playing to his strengths and his weaknesses will be more vulnerable.
I agree that Charlie’s job is to be ready, but his best chance for success is when the game plan has been built for him.
And when he has more than ZERO (first start) prior experience..
It’s ridiculous to think that just because “the job of a backup is to be ready to go in when the team needs you” that you will be ready when you’ve never had the opportunity to play in a live NFL game before.
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 21, 2011 3:56 PM PST up reply actions
Obviously Pete did indeed see something in Charlie,
otherwise the ’Hawks never would have traded for him.
I am so sick of this argument.
Matt’s first career start came at the age of 25. Charlie is 28 and will be 29 before game one of this season. Charlie is at the age where we expect him to be peaking, not breaking out. If we’re gonna say that history and probability aren’t on Hass’ side, they’re not on Charlie’s either.
Matt is bad, even really bad. Charlie is worse: he’s abjectly terrible. I am okay with this being the case, and dumping one of them so we can search for a young slinger is fine. But given the option, depending on the contract Matt signs, I’d rather dump Clipboard Jesus, whom we overpaid for in the first place.
We didn't overpay...
At least from a dollar standpoint. You can argue the pick cost was too high, and I wouldn’t disagree. But under that construct, that actually makes keeping him a better decision than keeping Hasselbeck.
He’s only making 8 million for two years. Hasselbeck made 10 million last year, and will likely get as much this next turn around, if not more. Sweet. Sign him up for another year (or more) at 10 mil, and lose capital that could be better spent fixing holes all across the team. And if you cut Charlie, you basically walk away from a 3rd round pick without ever utilizing it, despite it showing some signs of growth potential. That’s just dumb.
Bottom line, If “overpaid” is your reasoning, go with the cheaper version of bad, and the one with (if only modest) chance of improvement.
And I completely disagree with the “abjectly terrible” moniker, as while apparently you deem age to be the quantifier for judging a QB’s play, I believe it to be experience. With field experience (and only with field experience) can improvement be proven. We even saw it in his two starts, an improvement from one start to the next. Hell, Hasselbeck has been adjectly terrible for four seasons, and yet you want to bring him back because, “we overpaid for Charlie,” who despite being only 29, is apparently too old to show any inkling of improvement where he could move past the 36 year old version of Hasselbeck. (Which, of course, you know because his two starts proved to you that this was the case.)
Quality QB play might be the toughest skill to develop and in all of sports, and certainly it is in team sports. Judging a guy on two starts just because of his age is folly.
And as for the “peaking” argument… fine. Maybe he peaks late, after starting late. This guy did a pretty good job of having a good career that, realistically, peaked late after not getting started the way he liked. I’m not saying Charlie will be Rich Gannon, who had many starts earlier in his career, but if you were to judge him at age 29, you would have said he was a mediocre, over the hill backup.
So yeah, I’m equally as “so sick of this argument”— that Charlie should be judged on two games started.
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 24, 2011 6:44 AM PST up reply actions
Charlie's would have thrown for 600yds and 10td's against the Saints!
You ask how I know, I answer “the same way you know so positively that we couldn’t have beaten the Saints without Matt, I puled it outta my ars!”
Pete Carroll never indicated that he "Wanted Matt to be his starting Quarterback."
This is something you either think you heard or are throwing in as some kind of misleading statement. He also said “No, signing hasselbeck doesn’t mean we wouldn’t look in the draft or free agency we will constantly look at every option to improve this team and add talent.”
by Joshua Kasparek on Jan 19, 2011 6:39 PM PST reply actions
Obviously a complicated ruse
You need to look for the hidden message between the words.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 6:42 PM PST up reply actions
Really? I do? Because they didn't go out and get Whitehurst and give him a shot at the job
Nah, actual results are a huge ruse.
by Joshua Kasparek on Jan 19, 2011 6:45 PM PST up reply actions
Carroll said this:
I don’t think there’s any other way to look at it," Carroll said. "Yeah. He’s our starting quarterback. But he won’t be under contract for a while so we have to figure that part out.
and this:
I love what Matt has brought to this program well before I got here and what he did for us this year, and what he did for me to help getting this program started, and I’m not forgetting about any of that.
and this:
It’s our top priority. It’s the top priority in the program. You have to deal with this or you don’t understand the game, and I think we understand it very well. That’s why the very first meeting after our team meet was John and I and Matt.
I think it’s pretty clear Carroll wants Hasselbeck to be back as the starter next year.
Those are pretty selective excerpts
and those are the most damning ones you could find?
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 6:47 PM PST up reply actions
I know you're in disagreement mode but those comments are pretty clear.
It’s not that Carroll doesn’t want anyone but Matt to start or won’t explore any other options that are available but as of right now he’s expecting Hasselbeck to be the teams starting QB next season.
Right
And after the draft in 3 months? After free agency? After we can trade players? Who knows. That’s why trying to say Carroll wants Matt starting before we even have a chance to add other talent is odd.
And if you don't sign Matt and there is no real FA period
and there aren’t any QB prospects worth picking, what happens? You end up with a lost year for everybody else on your team.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 6:53 PM PST up reply actions
He wants Hasselbeck-level minimum play
but he isn’t precluding improving the postion.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 7:06 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Hasselbeck level minimum play?
And John’s the one being accussed of making stuff up?
by Nate Dogg on Jan 19, 2011 7:08 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah
I have to admit — Hasslbeck-minimum play isn’t something we should be searching for.
JM is freaking out a little and I guess that's understandable.
Most of these articles usually end with Seattle needs their 15 year franchise foundation QB. It’s a freakout article because of delusion of a once in a decade type pipe dream.
by Joshua Kasparek on Jan 19, 2011 6:54 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
It's not odd at all, it's a direct quote.
Matt is out starting quarterback. Thats not complicated. Sure, maybe Aaron Rodgers gets cut and then Carroll tries to sign him. But as of right now, his plan for the offseason is to sign Hasselbeck to be the starting quarterback right now.
Sorry, missed the direct quote where he says he wants Hasselbeck starting next year.
Please, find it for me.
The direct quote is that *currently* Hass is our starting QB.
But, trying to say that Carroll is determined to start Hass next year from that quote, before we even have a chance to add anyone else whatsoever, is odd to me.
I didn't say that and no one else said that.
But it’s pretty clear that right now their plan is to enter next year with Matt as the starter. Not that Matt is Carroll’s dream QB, not that they won’t sign or draft other quarterbacks and not that it won’t be open to competition but that with what they see unfolding over the (possibly shortened) offseason they plan on him being the starter.
No, it's not at all clear. That's the disagreement we've having.
Either way, let’s assume you are correct and the plan right now is to start Hasslebeck. Who cares until after the draft/fa/trade period? Hass may not be signed, he could be signed for a little and cut for a draft pick or a trade. There’s a billion things that could happen.
So you really believe that Carroll is calling a guy who isn't even on the team anymore next years starter and made sure the FO's first priority was to initiate talks with him without any real intentions of doing that?
He called him the starting QB.
The season ended 3 days ago. He is currently the Seahawks starting QB — contract or not. He simply did not say that Hass was “next year’s starter.” That’s the problem I’m having. And no, I don’t care about “intentions” before the offseason has even begun.
You're fighting a losing battle PP
Everyone that hates this has already decided Carroll has him penciled in on the depth chart.
by Joshua Kasparek on Jan 19, 2011 7:11 PM PST up reply actions
Are you guys just fucking with me or what?
He’s our starting quarterback. But he won’t be under contract for a while so we have to figure that part out.
Thats seems like the exact definition of being penciled in.
I have to admit, it is getting funny.
To you: That quote means he is penciled in next year as our starter.
To me: That quote means that currently he is our starting QB, but says nothing about him starting next year.
Are there any other Seahawk games between now and next season?
Since Pete didn’t say that Matt “was” our starting QB — and that re-signing him is our Top Priority — it’s fair to assume that Pete expects Matt to continue to be the starter, short of a freak injury or an amazing set of circumstances where a much better QB becomes available.
Pete is very careful with the words he uses, and we would lose (a lot more) in contract negotiations if Pete outright promises the starting gig to Matt before he is re-signed.
I'm confused.
You’re saying it’s bad if Matt is promised the starting gig, but aren’t you also arguing that what Pete said was that Matt is going to be our starting QB? I guess he wasn’t very careful then.
I'm not saying anything is good or bad
I don’t think Pete should have said signing Matt was his Top Priority, but since he did….when your Top Priority is re-signing your starting QB, it’s assumed it’s so that he’ll continue to start. Your getting hanged up in the semantics.
You seem to be intentionally obtuse
or you have a poor understanding of nuance.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 7:14 PM PST up reply actions
I'm being intentionally obtuse?
Really? Thats an odd comment for you to make. Especially after we spent most of the day agreeing about this.
by Nate Dogg on Jan 19, 2011 7:24 PM PST up reply actions 7 recs
The whole part about how Matt is the starting quarterback and their first priority was for the FO to meet with Matt and start contract talks?
Replied above
but I’ll reiterate. Carroll saying Matt is the starting QB and that they want to talk contract simply does not equal “I want Hasselbeck as my starter next year.”
And if I roll the wooden ball off the table, we shouldn't assume it would hit the ground.
(Minority Report reference)
I think there's a slight differece between wanting to talk contract and "Top priority"
For a team that already has a dearth of elite level talent and something like 20+ free agents including a quality DT, starting center, RT, CB, K, etc. Admittedly some of those positions (I’m looking at you Locklear and Jennings) should be allowed to walk, you then need to look into replacements.
Point being, you don’t make “backup QB we might cut/trade” your top priority ahead of young, talented, starting OL and DL players. It’s not some kinda crazy interpretation that “#1 priority” means Starter.
by SmartAssCoug on Jan 19, 2011 10:06 PM PST up reply actions
I think he wants Hasselbeck as a fall back
and he wants a young franchise QB that will push Matt out of his starting job. If he can’t get a guy like that in the draft or through FA, he doesn’t want to get stuck which Charlie and Davis.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 6:50 PM PST up reply actions
He also talked about Matt's work with the other QBs and how valuable that had been this year.
We don’t even know if there will be a next year or a short season or no season. He spoke of the value of Matt’s experience and how the roster outside of that was limited at the position.
by Joshua Kasparek on Jan 19, 2011 7:00 PM PST up reply actions
To me, those comments say
1. He is currently our starting quarterback.
2. Matt has done well for this program and helped me with the transition.
3. Signing Matt is our top priority.
I’m not seeing the comment that says Carroll wants Hass to be the starter to the exclusion of anyoen else.
He does say/imply that Charlie isn't ready to push Matt out of the starting job yet
but he hopes Charlie (or a draft pick) will.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 6:51 PM PST up reply actions
He never said he hoped anyone would push Matt out of the starting job.
He said they’d definitely look at the draft to improve the quarterback position and then repeated the competition mantra.
And we know thus far how our QB "competition" has been handled...
Pete even admitting Charlie didn’t get enough of a chance. Nate I completely agree with everything you have pointed out. The comments carroll made are not comments you make if you do not expect matt to be your man next year. Period.
by Savage Seahawk fan on Jan 19, 2011 9:02 PM PST up reply actions
Okay, John, I am completely down with the overall sentiment of your article...
…and wish Hasslebeck well, like, don’t let the door hit you on the way out, but can’t swallow you dissing on Dave Krieg.
I enjoyed many games (over 2 seasons or so?) watching him play for Detroit, back when Barry Sanders was still running the rock. Not to say Detroit won a lot of games, or that Dave was good, but he still played competent football.
Not that any of this refutes your point. Let Hasslebeck go, please.
Yeah, he wasn't a bad QB for detroit when I watched them (which wasn't too often, but it happend).
I remember a game when detroit was down late in the game and I watch at least 2 or 3 WR drop passes as Krieg tried to lead them back on the last drive. I remember being pissed because I knew people would only look at the stats and just assume that Krieg was no longer a good QB. But he looked sharp.
Actually I just looked it up, he played 1 year in Detoit and was 5-2 as a starter and had a 14/2 TD/INT ratio and a 101.7 QB rating and helped get the Lions a WC berth with a 9-7 record overall. He also went 10-6 with a WC berth as the starter his first year in KC.
And I still believe it was a horrible idea to get rid of Krieg. And while John says that 4 seasons later that the Seahawks offense became a top scoring team, that was after Flores, who was the one who cut Krieg was removed and replaced by Erickson. And 2 of the years where the Seahawks had a top 10 scoring team, it was with a 40+ year old QB in Moon, and the 1 year they did it without Moon they had the #3 rushing offense, and 22nd passing offense.
by Mind of no mind on Jan 19, 2011 9:47 PM PST up reply actions
The Hasselhate never stops here.
" it’s imperative something must be said. This is a mistake. "
Just like it’s imperative Charlie Whitehurst starts against The Saints?
I don't know why a reasonable point of view gets labeled with an emotional tag like 'hate.'
As a fan of the Seahawks, the past three years have been painful, and while there are many reasons, the one more central than most is the inadequacy of play at the most important position on the team.
It’s not hate. It’s respectable criticism and concern.
Hasslebeck in 2010 was one of the worst, if not THE worst starting QB in the league.
It’s not ‘hate’ to desire a replacement.
I'm not talking about replacements - Clausen, CW, etc.
QBs that were their teams designated starters at the beginning of the year. Matt was bottom 3, or thereabouts.
At least Clausen has some upside
It’s all downhill for Hass
by B.B.Finnegan on Jan 19, 2011 7:07 PM PST up reply actions
I'm so sick of this.
I do not hate Matt Hasselbeck. He very well could be my favorite Seahawk ever.
Me wanting the team to find a franchise quarterback does not equate to me hating Matt Hasselbeck.
by BrianL on Jan 19, 2011 7:05 PM PST up reply actions 8 recs
Why does keeping Matt stop a search for that guy?
by Joshua Kasparek on Jan 19, 2011 7:06 PM PST up reply actions
If resigning Matt means genuine competition at the position...
…and the drafting/signing competing talent, I’m fine with it. Let the best man start.
If there's no reason to keep him around, why is Pete trying to do it?
Just to piss you off?
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 7:12 PM PST up reply actions
Pete is a very stupid college coach who is a pussy. That's why.
by Joshua Kasparek on Jan 19, 2011 7:14 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, because people in sports clearly know better about players than fans do.
That’s why Rafael Soriano just got $35 million dollars, Steve Hutchinson didn’t get the Franchise tag, Alexander got his big money deal (and played over the superior Maurice Morris), Griffey was brought back for 2010, Al Davis drafted Jamarcus Russell, Theo Epstein signed Julio Lugo to a 4-year deal, Carl Everett had a job for the last 3 years of his career, Mike Martz keeps getting coaching jobs, Matt Millen was a GM for an extended period of time, Ryan Howard got $25 million a year, something about the Royals and Pirates, and Matt Hasselbeck continues to start.
Clearly executives, coaches, and managers know more about sports than fans, all of the time, no matter what.
Matt had two great games at the end of the year and it was fun to watch. It doesn’t mean he’s still a viable football player. Griffey had a few 2-4’s and 1-4, 2B games in 2010…I love Matt, but saying that he clearly has something left in the tank because Pete Carroll says he does…well that’s just really, really silly. Who’s to say Pete is better at evaluating Matt’s skills than you or me?
by BrettJMiller on Jan 19, 2011 11:09 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Yeah
I don’t understand why everyone considers it hate to want to move on to a new QB. Especially with as bad as he’s been.
This goes for me as well.
And most see me as the staunchest “Hasselhater” around.
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 20, 2011 1:12 AM PST up reply actions
I know some of you hate the offseason.
In fact, a lot of you do. But damn, I love this stuff. It’s fun to discuss and argue and fight over the tiniest shit. Every day gets me closer to next season, and you all just help me get closer to it.
Sometimes getting wrapped up in circular arguments is fun
as long as all parties are behaving themselves and keeping an open mind, it’s not a big deal to me.
----Doesn't bother reading thread---
Excellent, another offseason of THIS!
Lonely like cheese and baloney only / I could've broke my sacroiliac
Silly grind, Billy Jack, illy nine milli black - MF DOOM
by Wayward Llama on Jan 19, 2011 7:35 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Okay everyone.
Time for a refresher course in the site rules and standards.
There’s been some very, very rude behavior in this thread. No more of that.
by BrianL on Jan 19, 2011 7:42 PM PST reply actions 5 recs
The Offense is terrible
The stats don’t lie. The Seahawks had the second worst running game in the league. They used 14 guys on the O Line and never knew what blocking scheme they were using. Matt had no deep receivers and an OC that likes to throw deep. He has a FB that is smaller than he is. When our TE’s got hurt we had no game plan and actually had to use an OL to fill the TE position. It is a wonder he wasn’t killed let alone injured. This was actually his best year of the last three. Give him some help! Unfortunately, where we are drafting there will not be an NFL ready QB. Carroll knows coming up with another QB is going to be difficult. Whitehurst isn’t the answer so far. Let’s hope we play poorly enough next year to get Andrew Luck.
I'm happy with the receivers we have now.
If we get a new young QB as well as a new starting guard and RT, I would be content with the offense. The defense is another matter……
He hit Cameron Morrah, Williams and Obamanu with deep balls. The just have little separation most of the time. The real problem is the lack of a running game that would allow him to pick his spots. They went deep to Williams on 3rd and 2 against NO. He has the arm to get it their just too few situations that allow it. I will agree the short passing game is his stock in trade.
His arm has no zip on those deep balls.
Granted, a few called for a floater, but he can’t fit it into tight windows down field. This really makes it tough while trying to execute a pass offense focused on the deep ball. His Fades are atrocious. he either throws it out of bounds or is just off target.
by Savage Seahawk fan on Jan 19, 2011 9:10 PM PST up reply actions
I don't know, that Williams throw was right where it needed to be
I’m not saying that ball is the norm for him, but it was an extremely good throw.
Even the best arm strength can’t account for touch on the deep ball though, as evidenced by Whitehurst-Martin.
"signing Hasselbeck is unambiguously the worst (realistic move)"
the seahawks can make.
John I am going to have to disagree with that statement and almost everything you have said in the comments. I do so because I disagree with your overall premise on rebuilding a team.
Understanding your beliefs in why you wrote this I can see why you would make this article. Pete believes in winning as much as possible now and rebuilding.
Does Pete think Matt is the best that they have that can win the now? I think that is what he thinks. That is pure speculation on my part. Pete really wants to change Matt into a game manager. I think Pete really values game manager quarterbacks. I state this in the numerous times that he has said he does not want turnovers, even if the game is getting out of hand don’t force it and create a turnover. Can Matt do this? I don’t know, I think this is the first year of learning that. Does this make him the best option? I think anyone could make arguments for and against.
Matt is the starter now. Pete does want to bring people in to take his job or make him better. This is evident in CBJ and Matt stating that this was discussed in the his meeting with Pete, in the Mitch interview.
Matt also stated that they talked about him returning and how he would feel about being a back up. Matt stated he does mentor people and would mentor people. Matt at least wants to compete for the starting role and if he gets beat out he stated he would accept it and mentor.
Say man
I ain’t ball bustin but what exactly do you disagree with in the article and why?
by jubelthebear on Jan 19, 2011 8:03 PM PST up reply actions
Well the first sentence
to start. That is what the whole article is about. I do so because I don’t believe that you just throw in new guy after new guy until you find it. I disagree with his philosophy. I think this article is just what John stated it is, hyperbole.
Now I can’t disagree with the stats and the rank of Matt. I do think however Matt can be better and fit what Pete can stomach if he is told never to force anything and does it.
Matt is 35
He has been prone to injury the past 3 years and his performance will not get better or more consistent.
If the Seahawks want to build for a future they have to draft or acquire a QB they can build a competitive team around for years to come. Hass, at this stage in the game, is not a QB you can build around with years in mind.
by jubelthebear on Jan 19, 2011 8:18 PM PST up reply actions
We're aren't building with him though.
We’re using him as a stopgap for next year until Berkley-Luck.
I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul - Invictus
Pete didn't specify how he
wants to use Hasselbeck. But if he plans to draft or acquire another QB, then why make signing Matt a priority? There’s other cheaper, equally capable journeymen QB’s the Seahawks could acquire.
by jubelthebear on Jan 19, 2011 8:31 PM PST up reply actions
Are there?
There ain’t much FA options out there unless you’re content with Alex Smith.
I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul - Invictus
Vince Young isn't bad
Michael Vick (Eagles ain’t lettin him go)
Payton Manning (not a chance in hell… sadly)
Seneca Wallace
Matt Moore (CAR)
Alex Smith (SFO)
Matt Leinart (HOU)
Marc Bulger (BAL)
Todd Collins (CHI)
Caleb Hanie (CHI)
Brady Quinn (DEN)
Drew Stanton (DET)
Trent Edwards (JAC)
Luke McCown (JAC)
Brodie Croyle (KC)
Chad Pennington (MIA)
Tyler Thigpen (MIA)
Tarvaris Jackson (MIN)
Jim Sorgi (NYG)
Kellen Clemens (NYJ)
Kyle Boller (OAK)
Bruce Gradkowski (OAK)
Dennis Dixon (PIT)
Billy Volek (SD)
Troy Smith (SF)
Kerry Collins (TEN)
Rex Grossman (WAS)
by jubelthebear on Jan 19, 2011 8:42 PM PST up reply actions
We don't know if/when FA will start
It could be a week before the first game.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 8:43 PM PST up reply actions
so you're saying they're gonna draft/there's a chance?
by jubelthebear on Jan 19, 2011 8:45 PM PST up reply actions
There'll be a draft
but the free agency period could really be disrupted. Pete said today something to the effect that ‘we can’t really depend on FA to add players to the team’ due to the shortness of the period and the fact that training camp will likely be significantly shortened.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 8:48 PM PST up reply actions
no franchise decline is complete
without a visit from one of the McCowns!
From The Hawks Nest - Seahawks Podcast
http://www.http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/from-the-hawks-nest/id385227705
by Hancock.Brett on Jan 19, 2011 8:54 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Still doesn't hinder the team from making any moves
The QB position can still be wide open according to ComPete’s philosophy. I’m not saying I’m buying what he’s selling, but I don’t consider these comments newsworthy in the least bit. They don’t hinder our ability to trade, sign, or a draft a QB of the future.
by quickhandsandfeet on Jan 19, 2011 8:21 PM PST up reply actions
Stole it from the Beast
Radio inteterview with Mitch in the Morning a while back.
by quickhandsandfeet on Jan 19, 2011 8:22 PM PST up reply actions
Yes, it does hinder the search for a new QB.
That’s one less roster spot that can be given to a younger QB with potential upside.
Yeah
Those JP Losman’s are tough to find…
by quickhandsandfeet on Jan 19, 2011 8:36 PM PST up reply actions
I understand the backlash to this supposed news.
But what I don’t understand is that I’m seeing a lot of crazy negative reactions to Carroll saying a standard coach speak comment about his QB. A couple of things to note, Matt has to want to resign here. There could be other head coach’s in the NFL that want his services and maybe Matt wants to go to a more proven winner. It also could be that Carroll is trying to stir up value in the market (ie. Arizona, SF, Cleveland, Minn, etc). I know thats speculative, but so is predicting anything relating to his status as the Hawks QB next year. So, just take a deep breath. Also, really what’s the harm? If we sacrificed draft picks into resigning Matt, then count me disappointed; but it looks like we’re maintaining a baseline quality level while we plan for the future. I understand people looking at his play over the past few years and his body failing him, but is Kerry Collin’s a better option? Kitna? I mean, they could be, but as a fan I’ll put my eggs in the Hasslebasket and hope for the best. This won’t hinder our ability to go after a free agent, draft pick, or trade partner. Personally, I’d be happy with the Vince Young experiment, but thats just me.
by quickhandsandfeet on Jan 19, 2011 7:56 PM PST reply actions
Cable
This should be interesting as it sounds like the OC will report to the O line coach. I understand they promised Cable he could control the running game as well as the O Line.
Wing-T damnit
But Pete wanted a run-first offense I think.
I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul - Invictus
Right.
But the OC is still going to call the plays.
by Scruffy Lefty on Jan 19, 2011 8:26 PM PST up reply actions
Cable
But Cable is the Assistant Head Coach and has been told he will be heavily involved in designing he offensive and specifically the running game not just the blocking.
He could also make up most of the gameplan
I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul - Invictus
Designing the running packages is still a ways off from calling the game.
by Scruffy Lefty on Jan 19, 2011 8:42 PM PST up reply actions
In 2008, Shannahan designed the offense and Bates called the plays
Shannahan’s son is now calling plays for the Redskins, but I can’t imagine he designed the offense.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 8:44 PM PST up reply actions
But Shannahan handled the passing game and running game.
Pete even mentioned he didn’t want Cable as the OC. Because he didn’t want him to focus on that.
by Scruffy Lefty on Jan 19, 2011 8:49 PM PST up reply actions
No, I was agreeing with you
Trying to show that this situation isn’t very rare in the NFL.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 8:51 PM PST up reply actions
Cable
They must think Cable is a God to give him the AHC title and all. Given his off field problems he is getting alot of respect from Pete and Schneider. I bet they had to clear him with Paul Allen.
Schneider
Pete doesn’t have the time to be doing all of the leg work to put this staff together. He was talking to the press today while Bevell was being interviewed. You can be sure alot of this change is John Schneider’s work. It seems like the two of them are working well together given the speed of all of these changes. Somebody had to sit down and figure out who they were gong to target and it seems Schneider has been busy.
Wasn't Bevell interviewed on Monday too?
Pete could have a chance to talk to him then.
I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul - Invictus
Bevell and Hass
They talked to Hass on Monday, too according to him. Pete no doubt talked to Bevell and Hass but Schnder is doing the thinking and making the phone calls. This plan was laid over the last few weeks. It did not come together suddenly once the Chicago game was over.
Hasselbeck
-is the best QB Seattle had on it’s roster this year
-is likely the best QB that will be available in FA this year
-does not prohibit the team from drafting a QB
-would “compete” for the starting QB job (safe to say after he had to do it this season)
-could be traded if he loses the starting QB job
-will likely be paid less than Jake Locker (under the current agreement)
I know you don’t like Beck John Morgan but I’m having a hard time understanding why this will signal some kind of dark age again.
Plus it'll be fun to see him play with two hands
both obliques
his buttocks
an improved OL
and an improved run game
Simply put
It looks bad. Why would openly state you want prioritize signing a QB who is old and has not shown they can consistently win at this stage in their career?
by jubelthebear on Jan 19, 2011 8:13 PM PST up reply actions
Who said that it was a true priority though?
Carroll could’ve been stating this to the press just so it tells other teams to fuck off.
I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul - Invictus
"Is likely the best QB that will be available in FA this year"
Care to use any facts to back this up, or is it a fact just because it was said now?
by BrettJMiller on Jan 19, 2011 11:13 PM PST up reply actions
Care to refute him with any?
Sorry. I’m sure you could. But damn it, it’s a sports blog. An opinion sports blog. PEOPLE HAVE OPINIONS. Drop these snarky ass “give me the facts” comments. Push your fucking glasses up your nose if you want, but keep this crap out. Yes, we all desire/need objective(ish) statements on these arguments, but damn. Let a guy have an opinion without trying to discredit it by pulling out one of his statements and demanding hard proof of it. You should know, this is football. It’s damned near impossible – expect in the exceptional player case – to prove much of anything definitively with the stats we have.
by somethingwitty on Jan 20, 2011 12:13 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I just feel that if you are going to state something as if it is true, there should be some evidence behind it.
You can’t just say “Matt is the best QB available” without telling me WHY Matt is the best available QB in free agency. I’d argue there are many better options. From that list above, I’d say it’s clear that Vince Young, Seneca Wallace, Matt Moore, Marc Bulger, Tyler Thigpen, Tarvaris Jackson, and Dennis Dixon are all better than Hasselbeck as a 36-year-old. I’ve also heard a lot of football people say they think Denver’s Tom Bradstater has a future as an NFL starter.
If I don’t demand facts from someone’s stance, then what should I ask for? Should I say “Hey, have your opinion, spout it, and argue. It’s fine as long as it’s your opinion, without you having any evidence to back it up.” Well, I don’t agree with that. Opinions can be changed with a good argument, and good arguments are backed up by facts. If he is arguing, he clearly wants people to believe he has a valid point, and would like people to agree with him. That’s the point of arguing. If he would like people to agree with his opinion, he should offer some facts that may convince me to side with him.
I’m fine with admitting Hasselbeck likely has more upside for 2011 than Whitehurst. I’ve been in Whitehurst’s corner all year, but Matt demonstrated to me that there’s something left in the tank for a few games a year with the last two games. However, that’s not enough for me. The point is, some actual, tangible things happened and I changed my opinion on the Matt vs. Charlie situation. Opinions can be changed with facts, not with blanket statements of opinion.
Maybe we can’t definitively prove anything, but we can have a better, more logical argument that doesn’t stem from emotional beliefs if we try to elaborate on why we believe the things we do.
I am happy to see your anger and fire towards me, as hiding behind the anonymity of the internet makes such things totally fine. People can have opinions, but they’re worthless for the sake of argument without something legitimate to back them up. Everybody has an opinion—it doesn’t mean it’s worthwhile.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 9:04 AM PST up reply actions
Matt is the best QB available because ...
there may not be anyone else available. With the CBA negotiations this year it is likely there will not be a free agency period when teams can fill out their new roster with FA;s. Keeping Matt ensures that if training camp is short we can field a competitive team. Anyone else will need to come in and learn the system. If we go 2-14 John Schneider and Pete get fired. That is why they need to resign Matt. If this were a normal year they may not keep him.
If the CBA rules affect other QBs going to free agency when they should, why wouldn't it affect Matt?
Matt is a free agent, we’d have to re-sign him in whatever free agency period there is. I also wouldn’t fire Pete and Schneider after a 2-14 year, if they were at least dedicated to a good process. Re-signing Hasselbeck would shake my faith in their process. Also, I disagree that keeping Matt ensures a competitive team out of a short training camp, because he is a bad quarterback, and bad quarterbacks don’t usually ensure that a team is competitive.
Why would the new rules let only Matt go to free agency of the other QBs that are up for free agency? Maybe I’m just not understanding what you’re trying to say…
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 10:25 AM PST up reply actions
If I understand this argument correctly
it assumes that the free agency, OTAs and training camp period would be condensed. There’s no reason other QBs couldn’t be brought in but there would be limited time to learn the system or teammates.
Matt is looked at as a safety net, someone already familiar with the team, coaches, etc. It’s probably a stronger argument had Bates been retained. A new OC likely means any QB (including Matt) is going to have a bit of a learning curve for a new system, even if it’s fundamentally similar to the one used in 2010.
by SmartAssCoug on Jan 20, 2011 10:29 AM PST up reply actions
The thing is, Matt knows the coaches, but Matt is bad at executing what they want him to do.
So who cares if he knows the system? I’ll take the more talented player 10 times out of 10…
I can’t tell if you’re in my side here or not, however…
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 12:05 PM PST up reply actions
I don't disagree with you
I’m not sold on the argument above myself, I was simply restating and paraphrasing what others had written previously for clarity.
by SmartAssCoug on Jan 20, 2011 1:21 PM PST up reply actions
No
Matt is nott a FA until after the season. This season he will not be a FA until there is a new CBA.
Are my comments more to your liking now?
Free Agency
The current NFL and NFLPA collective bargaining agreement (CBA) is set to expire on March 3, 2011. That date is also when NFL Free Agency should start, however unless a new CBA is agreed upon by March 3, 2011 free agency cannot happen. Matt is under contract until March 3. They will try and sign as many of our potential FA’s in February as they can. This year the FA period may occur after the draft rather than before. In the past a team might try to fill its needs in free agency and then turn to the draft if they miss. This year you cannot be sure you will get any FA’s from another team. It depends on when the new CBA is signed and how much if any time is given to free agency signings. The draft will go on as scheduled in April.
by Patches Pal on Jan 20, 2011 10:58 AM PST up reply actions
I guess. I just don't see why it'd be worse to sign Vince Young than Matt Hasslebeck if free agency started, say, August 1st.
Talent>familiarity.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 12:07 PM PST up reply actions
Agreed
And the familiarity angle loses quite a bit more importance with the departures of Bates and Fisch.
by SmartAssCoug on Jan 20, 2011 1:25 PM PST up reply actions
Under this argument, then Tavaris Jackson is the best option.
He knows the system of our O.C. Matt does not.
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 20, 2011 7:54 PM PST up reply actions
-is likely the best QB that will be available in FA this year
notice the key words there sport.
The fact is we don’t know who will be available in FA or if there will be FA at all. Open up your browser and type in “NFL Free agency 2011” and peruse the list. Come back and tell me whether or not you still think I’m wrong.
Did you see the list of QBs up for free agency in my post?
There will be free agency if there is a season, period…the NFLPA would not let those players set to be free agents have to play another year with their current team. Basically, if Matt is not under contract—which he is not as of March 3—then whenever free agency starts, we can have any of those QBs if we offer the right amount of money. And in my mind, Matt is one of the worst QBs available, not the best. I’ve seen the other free agents and think Matt is at the bottom of the barrell as an injury prone, 36-year-old, weak-armed quarterback. That’s not even mentioning that he’s not nearly as accurate as he used to be.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 12:12 PM PST up reply actions
ummmm....
" I’d say it’s clear that Vince Young, Seneca Wallace, Matt Moore, Marc Bulger, Tyler Thigpen, Tarvaris Jackson, and Dennis Dixon"
Really??
OK, we’re not going to see eye to eye. Don’t jump all over me and I’ll refrain from doing the same. Sound good?
it's natural
For fans to overestimate their “own players,” and most if not all SEahawk fans do this with Matt. Here is a fact, most of the nation NEVER believed that Hasselbeck was at any time in his career an “elite” QB or “one of the best in the league.” In fact, I have never even met a non-seahawk fan that thought MAtt was elite at his peak. Yet you ask Seahawk fans, and that number may rise to 95%.
The truth is, if you judge by the numbers, Matt was never an elite QB in the league. It’s the emotional attachment that fans build towards players, they make them out to be more than they really are.
Right now, Matt is not just an average QB he is a horrible QB. I would much rather take Orton who relative to Hass has been out of this world. At the half way point of the season, Orton had more yards than any other QB in the league, his TD to INT ratio, his QB rating whatever you want to look at, Orton had elite numbers vs Hass and his worst in the league type numbers. I’d even take a raw Joe Webb over Hass. Webb is raw and who knows how much he would produce, but at least his potential is through the roof and you may develop something.
Basically, here is what’s going to happen:
1) The Hawks will overpay for Hass.
2) This will handcuff them looking for another QB
3) This will make sure the team continues as a mediocre to horrible team.
This is the road they are heading down. $10 million to $12 million per year? That is insane for HAss.
by plyka on Jan 20, 2011 11:07 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I'd say he was elite in 2005, and close to it in 2007.
But Matt was a top 10-to-15 QB in his peak. Very good, and only great for one season.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 12:14 PM PST up reply actions
He was a pro bowl three times and an all-pro once
How else could you define “one of the best in the nation” in any given year?
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 20, 2011 12:18 PM PST up reply actions
Probably not, but maybe?
From 2002 to 2007 Matt had the 7th high ANY/A of any quarterback that started at least half of the games over than span.
Considering plyka's point was about how Seahawks fans see their players
As opposed to how general fans see our players, I’d say yes, the pro bowl as a “perspective measurement” is very relevant to his point.
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 20, 2011 12:23 PM PST up reply actions
It's also natural to think the grass is always greener on the other side.
Aside from Vince Young, I don’t think there’s many people around the league who consider any of those guys as having much potential as a starting QB. And a very easy case can be made for doubting Vince Young’s leadership ability. Stats are a tool for evaluation, but they are not the whole story.
Given the choice of Matt, a bad QB who is familiar with the players, coaches, and system, or a different bad QB who has to come in and learn everything new and is little more than a young stopgap, it’s not insane to say stick with familiar vet as a game manager and keep looking for an actual quality replacement.
There’s a lot of people in the “don’t sign Hass” camp that seem to have absolutely no ability to recognize that a different point of view isn’t necessarily insane just because you differ on priorities and player evaluations. This site is becoming damn unreadable because of the complete lack of respect for opposing views.
I don't think anyone's getting shut down for their viewpoint.
There seem to be plenty of active participants on both sides of the discussion.
Have they said that they were going to pay him 10-12 million per year?
My understanding was just that they said re-signing him was a priority.
by splintrdmind on Jan 20, 2011 3:37 PM PST up reply actions
That's a pretty fair estimate of how much it is going to cost...
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 20, 2011 7:59 PM PST up reply actions
I guess that works. I guess my point is there is a body of evidence for 3 years that Matt has been getting worse and worse and worse.
While those guys have are young enough to have an opportunity to get better. I mean, Wallace played better with the same supporting cast as Matt when they were both ’Hawks in 2008 and 2009.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 12:13 PM PST up reply actions
Supporting an opinion with facts, sources, examples, philosophies, etc. is what makes the discussions on this site worthwhile.
It’s not uncommon for my opinion to be swayed, or evolve, or strengthen based on comments in these threads. There is value to being shown differing perspectives. It’s the intelligent discussions that keep me coming back to this site far more than any other.
by eeezzbok on Jan 20, 2011 12:33 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
I find that very few people seem to feel like you and I.
So often I hear “we’re not going to change each other’s mind about this”. Why the hell not? How do people get so close-minded that they’re no longer interested in hearing a carefully considered opinion from the opposition?
I like you already eeezzbok.
Also, I do not know why you made the statement about glasses as I do not own a pair of contacts or glasses as my eyesight is 20/20
But telling me to push my fucking glasses up my nose certainly makes you look like more of a calm, rational person whose argument I should take seriously. Thanks buddy! :)
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 9:05 AM PST up reply actions
Also if he doesn't start there's gonna be a huge shitstorm in Seattle. Hell, if this season is any indication, even the suggestion of not starting him would cause a huge shit storm
by BrettJMiller on Jan 19, 2011 11:14 PM PST up reply actions
???
Why do people keep saying this?? He was booed of the field. Many fans were calling for Charlie. Many fans wanted Charlie to start. Many fans wanted Charlie to start the NO game. Additionally, even if there was a “huge shitstorm” I really, really don’t think this would affect the front office’s decision making.
by purplepansy on Jan 19, 2011 11:40 PM PST up reply actions
The stadium seats 70,000....if 10,000 people boo, and 60,000 people do nothing, we're going to hear the boos.
I don’t know if you listen to sports talk radio at all, but what seemed like a good 90% (though this is just what it felt like to me) of the people calling in were Matt backers. On this blog, about half the people are Matt backers. Many Matt backers think it’s ludicrous to suggest anyone else even starts.
It shouldn’t affect the front office’s decision making, and I don’t think it will affect whether or not they bring him back. If they bring Matt back, they want him back. But look a what happened this year: we didn’t seriously look for a better option than Matt, and when it was clear Matt was no longer good enough to play, we couldn’t just say “We’re starting our hotshot prospect”…because we didn’t have one. It’s harder to bench Matt when you bank on him to be your starter, and don’t have a backup plan.
So what I’m getting at, is that if Matt is starting next year, and sucks, there’s still going to be backlash to benching him. It may not affect Pete’s decisions, but it could be hard to keep the locker room if that kind of situation happens. Look at Griffey vs. Wak as an example.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 9:09 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Well said.
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 20, 2011 8:02 PM PST up reply actions
I might be the only one who hears it like this but quotes such as:
“Matt finished beautifully with us — he did everything we asked him. So we’ve already talked, we’ve already met. John and I sat down with Matt already and we’re going to move forward. We have to see what it all means, but we’re on it.’
’
“I don’t think there’s any other way to look at it, yeah; he’s our starting quarterback,‘’ Carroll said. "But he won’t be under contract for awhile so we have to figure that part out.’
’
sound to me as if Carroll’s ready to cut bait on Matt as soon as he has a better option in the fold…
Quotes like these sound like Carroll’s saying whatever he needs to at the present because they haven’t (and can’t) made any trade/draft/free agent moves for another option yet and what good does it do to publicly distance yourself from Hasselbeck now when you can’t realistically pursue any other options until draft time or until a new collective bargaining agreement gets done?
I really don’t think these quotes mean much of anything in the big picture. I would be astonished if the Q/PM powers that be are so football-dumb that they truly think Matt is the answer next year when all of us, who have nowhere near the depth and breadth of their football knowledge and experience, can see it so clearly.
Matt
I think Matt explained it well yesterday on the radio. He said, he was the QB they were moving forward with but he also understands the team must look to the future and prepare for a successor. Carroll essentially said the same thing. He and they want to win now and in the future without going thru a big drop to the bottom.
Just throwing this out here but what exactly do you think Matt will want to resign here?
Out of all the potential stop-gap QB’s he’s the one with the most credentials and experience, so I’m willing to bet that one team might overpay him with a 3-year deal while we’re smart enough to only over a one year with a option.
I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul - Invictus
He'll want a little more than what anyone else will offer.
Or just take whatever Q/PM offers, since they seem to overspend for guys they want.
There was an interview with Matt the other day
I think it was Mitch, and he asked Matt the same question. Matt did not beat around the bush but just said, “That would make the decision more difficult.” Implying that he might want to survey the landscape to find a more proven winner. He said it a few times that he wants to win, underlined by saying he wants to stay in Seattle. I don’t think its a slam dunk that he even wants to stick around. Minnesota?
by quickhandsandfeet on Jan 19, 2011 8:28 PM PST up reply actions
They would be smart not to fall for another injury-prone, Holmgren-based QB
I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul - Invictus
Starship Troopers just came on.
Clearly the best #1 priority for this team is to sign Johnny Rico to play WR.
by Scruffy Lefty on Jan 19, 2011 8:23 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I'd rather draft Jake Busey's teeth to play cornerback.
The receiver could never see the ball with the blinding reflection of those chompers.
She has a better arm than Hasselbeck, that's for sure.
BUT I DON’T WANT MY FOOTBAW TEAM DRAFTING A SKIRT
Literally as you typed this - I looked up and saw a close up of Busey smiling
by Scruffy Lefty on Jan 19, 2011 8:29 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Then I look up again and see his dick.
God damn shower scene!
by Scruffy Lefty on Jan 19, 2011 8:32 PM PST up reply actions
What?
I don’t remember any dingaling in that movie. Lots of butts.
Dina Meyer and Denise Richards in their prime.
Mmm-hmmm.
I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul - Invictus
no Denise nudity, though.
For that you need “Wild Things”.
Which of course was a tease of its own, for not showing Neve Campbell nudity.
I just heart about this movie called "Crystal Heart" today
Its about a boy in a bubble starring Tawny Kitaen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IktVsjRRKCk
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 8:37 PM PST up reply actions
There's a scene in there where they "do it" (giggle)
and there’s a glass wall between them.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 8:38 PM PST up reply actions
Woah... I remember watching that as a young teenager on Superchannel.
and being very, uh, “interested”
Three years
I think he expects to play and should be paid accordingly. Arizona would sign him in a heartbeat. The contract may be incentive laced which is why Schneider hasn’t figured it out. They will get it done in February.
this thread is out of control
and I mean that in a good way
I'm not sure
Whether it is that i share your position on the matter that is making me biased in judging the content or not….but that was an AWESOME piece!
Sometimes it feels like we can make better decisions than the people who are paid millions to make these decisions. Not signing a RB named Legarrate Blount, an undrafted rookie free agent was one such mistake. Not for the Seahawks in particular, but for most of the league. I couldn’t believe that most of the NFL couldn’t see his talent and I could. The same with Aaron Rodgers falling to the late 1st round. I couldn’t believe that I was the only one who saw his incredible talent when he played at Cal. For a current situation, Jeremiah Johnson the RB who ran with jonathan stewart at Oregon, is on some practice squad somewhere and any team can sign him for free. I can’t believe they don’t since I can see his talent and I believe he will be a top level player.
This decision is the same. For the life of me, I cannot see how in the world the Seahawks want to have Hasselbeck back. Carroll is given something not to many coaches are given: time and resources to rebuild. If he signs Hass he is completely wasting this opportunity! Rebuild this team into something special Carroll, you have the opportunity to do so! Making such decision, however, will not get you to that goal.
That's the frustrating part ain't it?
I just hope they get fired AND flayed because they wasted time and money when they should have just drafted a damn QB.
by jubelthebear on Jan 19, 2011 8:47 PM PST up reply actions
I'm also frustrated
that they didn’t draft a damn QB in the upcoming draft! Wait…wha…
by NinjaHawk on Jan 19, 2011 8:57 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
I've got a fever...
…and the only prescription is…
…more Hasselbeck!!
by NinjaHawk on Jan 19, 2011 8:38 PM PST via mobile reply actions
BREAKING NEWS!!!!
Matt Hasselbeck is ticklish.

I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul - Invictus
by EequalsMc2 on Jan 19, 2011 8:42 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
excuse my lack of formatting knowledge
and laziness, but where do you put the size=“200px” in the line?
by jubelthebear on Jan 19, 2011 9:03 PM PST up reply actions
right before the "/>" of the image link
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 19, 2011 9:04 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
.

Lonely like cheese and baloney only / I could've broke my sacroiliac
Silly grind, Billy Jack, illy nine milli black - MF DOOM
by Wayward Llama on Jan 19, 2011 10:30 PM PST up reply actions
.
width=250px
Sorry, had to be a dick. :)
by somethingwitty on Jan 20, 2011 12:15 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah, I know it's wrong
but I can’t be arsed to get another screencap and trim and size it down. Someone else already did this one for me. =)
Lonely like cheese and baloney only / I could've broke my sacroiliac
Silly grind, Billy Jack, illy nine milli black - MF DOOM
by Wayward Llama on Jan 20, 2011 5:04 AM PST up reply actions
I'm going to have to contest your understanding of the Dave Krieg situation
The fact that the offense scored points again had more to do with hiring Dennis Erikson as head coach and a RB named Chris Warren. Rick Mirer was never ever even close to Dave Krieg in terms of ability. Dave Krieg was playing in the ground chuck offense that had stalled out its running game in his last years. Even in 1995, at the age of 37 and playing on a shitty Cardinals team, Dave Krieg was still better than Rick Mirer.
I was better than Ricky M, but Ricky M was better than Brady Quinn
So my poster of Brady Quinn that says “Ricky M, the next generation is sadly inaccurate.”
by Joshua Kasparek on Jan 19, 2011 9:18 PM PST up reply actions
What do you disagree with, exactly?
I didn’t write anything negative about Krieg.
by John Morgan on Jan 19, 2011 10:43 PM PST up reply actions
"The lie that losing Krieg led to the misery of the early nineties is written into Seahawks lore."
It’s not a lie. Dave Krieg was hands down a better QB than any of the QBs Seattle had for years afterward. I think it’s unquestionable that the Seahawks would have been a better team with Krieg than without him. They could have still kept Krieg while grooming their younger QBs. The Seahawk QB situation did not improve until a guy named Kitna spent 2 years backing up a 40+ year old QB named Warren Moon, and took over the reigns of the offense getting the Seahawks back to the playoffs. Flores doomed the Seahawks in the early 90s by handing the keys of the offense to guys who didn’t know how to drive.
Don't forget that Hasselbeck learned under Dilfer.
by Joshua Kasparek on Jan 20, 2011 12:44 AM PST up reply actions
The difference is Dilfer wasn't a Seahawks legend.
It’s easier to get a mentor from somewhere else; a player the fans and locker room have no emotional attachment to. Look, Matt sucked this year and Curry posted on Twitter this morning that re-signing Matt would allow them to keep playing at a “championship level”….well, I don’t think 12 TD, 17 INT, 6-8 record as a starter in the regular season this year is “championship level”…but players aren’t exactly rational when it comes to their clubhouse leaders.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 9:14 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah, that Aaron Rodgers guy was mentored by a legend who he later replaced and obviously that turned out terribly.
I don’t think there’s anything to support “It’s easier to get a mentor from somewhere else.” That makes little sense to me. It implies the team doing the mentoring has to trade the player for that player to succeed.
Favre and Rodgers didn't really get along that great.
by Scruffy Lefty on Jan 20, 2011 12:34 PM PST up reply actions
In all fairness without getting too deep into this discussion,
you don’t necessarily have to get along well to be ‘mentored’. I have hated working with some people over time, and learned quite a bit from them.
In fact, a situation like that might have fueled Rodgers’ desire to become better than Favre
Or he might have already been ready from day 1, and didn't learn a thing from Favre other than
how to be an insufferable prick and how to not age gracefully.
We don’t know, so you can’t give credit for “mentorship”— it is simply impossible to assume.
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 20, 2011 8:06 PM PST up reply actions
Well, aside from the fact that there is no evidence that sitting and learning on the bench makes a QB better...
I’d say it’s much more likely that a team’s long-term starter, pushed to the bench for a hot-shot rookie (or even just knowing the rookie is breathing down his neck) is going to be a bit more bitter and disgruntled about losing his job than a Jeff Garcia type who knows that his role is to be a sometimes starter and extra coach, essentially.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 12:47 PM PST up reply actions
I recall Garcia not liking it much either, for the record.
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 20, 2011 8:08 PM PST up reply actions
The "advantage" of getting rid of the old guard when bringing in a potential replacement is that it creates a leadership vacuum.
In other positions that would be a horrible strategy. But a large part of the quarterback’s role is to be the team leader. This franchise as had Matt as leader since around 2002. You’re asking quite a lot for a mentee (one who is mentored) to step into that role when the guy everyone has looked to for 10 seasons is standing right there.
Bringing in an external mentor gives you the experience and ability to develop the younger player’s feel for the game, while not being an instant challenge or roadblock to development as a leader.
by SmartAssCoug on Jan 20, 2011 1:35 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Very smart...
for a coug.
Ass.
Seriously though, well said.
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 20, 2011 8:08 PM PST up reply actions
Hey now, I'm (going to be) a Coug too, and you seem to see eye to eye with me on a few things. :)
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 9:26 PM PST up reply actions
I love mocking everyone...
Just watched the Huskies play a hell of a hoops game. I love Ken Bone, he recruited me a little when he was at SPU in the 90’s…. I hope WSU makes the tourney too. And… Gonzaga.
And Eastern— National Champs!
Of course, I can root for all of them… I’m a CWU guy. Western sucks of course. But everywhere else is just fine.
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 20, 2011 10:07 PM PST up reply actions
It should be by now
I’ve written some variation of this comment with different phrasing at least 5x is the last 2 months. I think this was the only time I didn’t give examples of past franchise QBs that had to be ejected when the new kid showed up and pushed the old out of the starting lineup.
by SmartAssCoug on Jan 21, 2011 11:08 AM PST up reply actions
Yes, but losing Krieg wasn't why the Seahawks got bad.
The Seahawks lost Krieg, THEN did not have a good QB for years. Keeping an aging, declining Krieg would not have kept the Seahawks good. That’s not at all talking bad about Krieg. Sure, sometimes the QBs that come after the last good one suck, but you’ve just gotta keep throwing guys out there until you find your next star. Krieg was not good enough to start anymore when he was let go, much like Matt is not good enough now. It always ends up being a messy breakup when you keep your stars too long.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 9:12 AM PST up reply actions
But Krieg was good enough.
He took KC to the playoffs, did a good job relieving Montana the next season, and had a great year in Detroit. He even had some good games in Arizona, and his team was worse than ours. There’s no question we should have kept him.
And I think we should keep Matt (although I understand the frustration). He will be a good stopgap while Whitehurst and whomever-we-draft get ready. (we better get someone) Let’s be honest we’re not going to the Superbowl next year, and we don’t have anything better to look for in free agency. Do you want to trade draft picks for a temp in a rebuilding year?
And we were not going to make the playoffs this year. RIGHT
How do you know we are not going to the Super Bowl.
You shouldn't throw all your eggs into the "1% chance everything breaks right" basket.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 12:16 PM PST up reply actions
A lot of things broke very wrong for the Hawks in 2010.
The sun will shine on winter snow. And shadows fade In Excelsis Deo. GO HASSELBECK!!!
A good stopgap while Whitehurst gets ready?
If Matt acts as stopgap, that (to me) implies that he will be starting over Charlie. Charlie only has one year left on his current contract. What exactly are we getting him ready for? He’s had plenty of years to “get ready,” but no game time to figure out if he can be a competent NFL starter. I do think your argument could hold up if we draft a potential franchise QB and want to start Matt while the rookie learns the playbook and acclimates himself to NFL practices, meetings, etc. And, you’re right, I don’t want to trade draft picks for temp, only spend draft picks if you are getting somebody with a shot to be our future QB.
Charlie is also going to be 29 this year. He's too young to keep holding him back with stop gaps.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 12:47 PM PST up reply actions
Er, too old.
It’s time to shit or get off the pot for Whitehurst. And if we’re not gonna give him an opportunity because we’re starting Matt over him, well, he’s probably never going to get his chance.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 12:48 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, we're on the same page.
I was disagreeing with seattl’s comment that Hass would be a good stopgap while Charlie “gets ready.” That time has passed, it is now time to either put him to the test, or cut ties. Signing Matt and keeping Charlie on the roster accomplishes neither.
Yup, totally agree. I haven't seen you around FG much before, but I can tell you will be a good addition! Haha
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 1:57 PM PST up reply actions
Thanks.
I’ve been around for awhile, but did quite a bit of reading and lurking before diving in too deeply into the comments. Had to wash the stench of ESPN-type boards off me first so I didn’t make too big of an ass of myself.
I also don't really post as much anymore...that may be why I don't recognize you. I try to do more of my own writing these days, as I'm trying to become a sports writer.
I remember coming from those awful, awful ESPN style boards. Welcome to a much better place! Haha.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 2:05 PM PST up reply actions
I agree.
For the record. And welcome.
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 20, 2011 8:25 PM PST up reply actions
you heard me wrong
I said for Whitehurst and the guy we’re gonna draft. If he can beat out Nate Davis. I don’t have a lot of confidence in Charlie but I’m not ready to give up on him yet. We should have 2 qb’s in the wings, in case we draft a bust. We better pick someone high.
You're all going to look silly
If Matt signs elsewhere in a few weeks.
Or do you actually think that everything said in a press conference is completely sincere?
Not everything, no.
But Carroll had an out, and he didn’t take it. It would have been perfectly acceptable, perhaps even expected, to say “we’d really like to have Matt back. He was a key member of the team this year, and I hope that we can come to an agreement that keeps him as a Seahawk.” Instead he said that Matt was his number one priority. There’s a gulf there, and in my experience it suggests some honesty on Carroll’s part.
by Lanky on Jan 20, 2011 9:01 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Actually...
Pete said almost exactly what he “should” have said if the situation was not settled or decided. He said that Matthew is the starter right now, but he will not be under contract, so they will have to look at it. He then said that the quarterback position is the top priority.
That’s entirely different from saying resigning Matt Hasselbeck is the top priority.
by HawkSoop737 on Jan 20, 2011 11:51 AM PST up reply actions
Yep
But you can also review the transcription of his presser at the news tribune blog or the seattle times blog.
Seems like Pete was trying to avoid giving an unpopular answer to the question, but he went on to specifically say that, “We don’t get to play forever, Matt’s not going to look at it that way, but we are aware of it and we’re working on it.”
by HawkSoop737 on Jan 20, 2011 12:14 PM PST up reply actions
Well then the whole discussion will be moot.
So for the sake of argument and discussing what should be done about Matt, I’m going to assume my understanding is the “correct” one. You may well be right, but I’d like to consider what it means to the Seahawks if you aren’t.
This really makes no sense at all
Assuming that Pete Carroll is interested in resigning Matt, but also leaving room for improving the position through FA or Draft doesn’t make debate and conversation moot.
You can still discuss what keeping Hasselbeck as the starter means for the team.
by HawkSoop737 on Jan 20, 2011 12:35 PM PST up reply actions
Don't worry, I intend to.
But my point is that John’s post (and therefore the discussion in general) is centered around the concept that re-signing Matt is a top priority. You’re suggesting that it isn’t, right?
The discussion and post..
Propose that Pete said that signing Matthew is the top priority and predict a doomsday scenario evolving from that. My counterpoint here is that since that is not what was said, which is pretty directly related to the conversation. Especially when we start using the post to divert into discussions of how the FO is prone to make further mistakes etc.
by HawkSoop737 on Jan 20, 2011 12:45 PM PST up reply actions
Yes. I didn't mean to imply that your counterpoint was unrelated.
Just that it changes the discussion fundamentally. So if you want to change the discussion fundamentally, okay. What would you like to talk about instead?
It actually doesn't change the conversation at all
The conversation appears to be about the efficacy of resigning Hasselbeck and the ability of the FO moving forward, sorry if I’ve caused you to thinking about his issue in a different light by pointing out a different interpretation of the press conference, but that is not in anyway fundamentally changing the conversation
by HawkSoop737 on Jan 20, 2011 12:52 PM PST up reply actions
You get my point.
It’s as if nobody here has any familiarity in the NFL. Coaches and GM’s look straight into the camera lens and lie through their teeth on a regular basis. Ruskell was committed to Shaun Alexander weeks before cutting him, Carroll was big on keeping Nate Burleson and Deion Branch, on and on.
Why you Re-sign Matt-
1) i went to the NO game and it was amazing. i watched the STL game on tv. That win and NO win took us out of range- from 8 to 21 to 25. I dont believe you reasonably find a pro bowl quarterback outside of the first round anymore.
Pete is going to wait til 2012 – with our schedule we will draft in the top 10- at that point we may draft Luck or Barkeley or Landry Jones or someone else who will rise up.
Do not give me the excuse of Tom Brady or MH being drafted in rd 6- those two were in 1998 and 2000. Nothing like that has developed in 10 yrs. nFL has changed.
Do not bring up Drew Brees or Brett Favre as 2nd rounders- they were taken high in the 2nd. Kolb was 2nd but if the % of a 1st rd QB developing into a starter is about 50% (last 10-12 years) then the 2nd round is like 10% and it gets worse into the 3rd and 4th…bottom line- its a fools game to draft your QB of the future 10x below round 1 vs drafting in Rd 1 with a 50% hit rate.
I believe the NFL was gotten more efficient at scouting QBs and there will be no more Tom bradys/ Hasselbecks/
Bottom line- 2012
by Davis Hsu on Jan 19, 2011 9:53 PM PST via mobile reply actions
mike vick
The eagles got him for nothing and he is now the most productive qb in the league. Denver has already said that they would trade orton for a 2nd rounded, which means a third or even fourth will do. Basically there are other options.
That said, even your draft point is wrong. The best young qb in ages was drafted a few years ago with the 24th pick, we have the 25th. I would take Aaron rodgers over any other qb in the league. You can find great QBs with the picks we have.
by plyka on Jan 19, 2011 10:16 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Aaron Rodgers at 24/25 wont happen in 2011
Rodgers was the 2nd QB off the board- in 2011 do you really think there will be one QB taken 1-23. I would bet a handsome sum that more than and 1 and maybe 4 could go.
Let me ask you this- in the last 10 years- what was the best QB draft? I would say 2004- the year Eli Big Ben and Rivers went- the 4th QB was JP Losman- another QB went in rd 3- Schaub.
Besides that- i cant think of one yr where 4 starter level QB came out in one yr- maybe I am wrong and I am open to examples.
once you are past the first 1-3 QB- the rest usually dont pan out.
You dont want to be drafting the 4th or 5th best QB in a draft.
The only recent low round find i can think of is Cassell- NE could afford to take him since they had Brady- they werent in need.
oh and Mike Vick- 1st pick in rd 1- 2001. If you think it was a no brainer to take him out of prison you forget the public sentiment at the time- again- a team with 2 QBs was able to take a flier on him.
by Davis Hsu on Jan 19, 2011 10:46 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
the problem is
that you’re assuming the QBs draft order = their quality. And in my opinion it doesn’t. Aaron Rodgers was just a few years ago, are you telling me that scouting has changed to such a degree that it’s not possible to have an Aaron Rodgers who is probably the best QB in the league, or one of them, fall to you at 25? Even if 3 QBs are taken and you get the 4th, why are you assuming that the first 3 will be starting quality? Just a few years ago, Josh Freemen went 17th in the draft, he is another top quality prospect, perhaps not on Rodgers level, but then again Freeman has only been in the league 2 years.
Here is a great article on the subject from advanced stats:
http://www.advancednflstats.com/2010/04/are-top-draft-pick-qbs-any-better-than.html
Basically, there is a correlation between quality of QB and draft order, but there have been PLENTY of QBs taken later in draffts that are superstar QBsn and also very good QBs. For every Peyton Manning taken 1st there is a Tom Brady taken in the 6th round just as successful.
That's right.
There is no law of physics concerning the number of good qb’s in a draft class. Ever hear of 1986? Sure it was not a typical year, just like Rodgers was not a typical pick, but there are sleepers every year, and they could be at any position.
2002-2009 QB analysis per round
I wish you are right- i really do because I would love to get a franchise QB at 25 in 2011.
I know Pro Bowls aren’t the total evaluation- but lets look at Pro Bowls as a percentage per rd. (2002-2009 drafts)
Rd 1 (8 of 24 qb went to PB- 7 solid starters and 9 busts)- 33%
Rd 2 (0 for 8)- 0%
Rd 3 (1 of 11- Matt Schaub) 9%
Rd 4 (1 of 9- Garrard- not grt) 11%
Rd 5 (0 of 15) 0%
Rd 6 (1 of 22- D Anderson) 5%
Rd 7 (1 of 18- M Cassell) 6%
Sorry guys- after round 1 your chances of hitting a pro bowl QB is 5-10%.
In Rd 1 its 33% and really more than that as Freeman Flacco Sanchez Stafford may go one day. In 2010 it was again- 50% as Bradford is a stud and Tebow prob wont pan.
I know that we have 1.25 but in this yr I dont think a franchise QB will be there.
I think we will win 4-6 games in 2011 because of the schedule whether we have Matt or Charlie or some other journeyman FA- i think we will draft in the top 8 in 2012 and will have a much better shot.
by Davis Hsu on Jan 20, 2011 1:04 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Bradford had a -9.1% DVOA this year.
I think he has the potential to become great, but he’s not a stud yet.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 1:09 PM PST up reply actions
2002-2009 QB analysis per round
I wish you are right- i really do because I would love to get a franchise QB at 25 in 2011.
I know Pro Bowls aren’t the total evaluation- but lets look at Pro Bowls as a percentage per rd. (2002-2009 drafts)
Rd 1 (8 of 24 qb went to PB- 7 solid starters and 9 busts)- 33%
Rd 2 (0 for 8)- 0%
Rd 3 (1 of 11- Matt Schaub) 9%
Rd 4 (1 of 9- Garrard- not grt) 11%
Rd 5 (0 of 15) 0%
Rd 6 (1 of 22- D Anderson) 5%
Rd 7 (1 of 18- M Cassell) 6%
Sorry guys- after round 1 your chances of hitting a pro bowl QB is 5-10%.
In Rd 1 its 33% and really more than that as Freeman Flacco Sanchez Stafford may go one day. In 2010 it was again- 50% as Bradford is a stud and Tebow prob wont pan.
I know that we have 1.25 but in this yr I dont think a franchise QB will be there.
I think we will win 4-6 games in 2011 because of the schedule whether we have Matt or Charlie or some other journeyman FA- i think we will draft in the top 8 in 2012 and will have a much better shot.
by Davis Hsu on Jan 20, 2011 1:04 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
2002-2009 QB analysis per round
I wish you are right- i really do because I would love to get a franchise QB at 25 in 2011.
I know Pro Bowls aren’t the total evaluation- but lets look at Pro Bowls as a percentage per rd. (2002-2009 drafts)
Rd 1 (8 of 24 qb went to PB- 7 solid starters and 9 busts)- 33%
Rd 2 (0 for 8)- 0%
Rd 3 (1 of 11- Matt Schaub) 9%
Rd 4 (1 of 9- Garrard- not grt) 11%
Rd 5 (0 of 15) 0%
Rd 6 (1 of 22- D Anderson) 5%
Rd 7 (1 of 18- M Cassell) 6%
Sorry guys- after round 1 your chances of hitting a pro bowl QB is 5-10%.
In Rd 1 its 33% and really more than that as Freeman Flacco Sanchez Stafford may go one day. In 2010 it was again- 50% as Bradford is a stud and Tebow prob wont pan.
I know that we have 1.25 but in this yr I dont think a franchise QB will be there.
I think we will win 4-6 games in 2011 because of the schedule whether we have Matt or Charlie or some other journeyman FA- i think we will draft in the top 8 in 2012 and will have a much better shot.
by Davis Hsu on Jan 20, 2011 1:04 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
2002-2009 QB analysis per round
I wish you are right- i really do because I would love to get a franchise QB at 25 in 2011.
I know Pro Bowls aren’t the total evaluation- but lets look at Pro Bowls as a percentage per rd. (2002-2009 drafts)
Rd 1 (8 of 24 qb went to PB- 7 solid starters and 9 busts)- 33%
Rd 2 (0 for 8)- 0%
Rd 3 (1 of 11- Matt Schaub) 9%
Rd 4 (1 of 9- Garrard- not grt) 11%
Rd 5 (0 of 15) 0%
Rd 6 (1 of 22- D Anderson) 5%
Rd 7 (1 of 18- M Cassell) 6%
Sorry guys- after round 1 your chances of hitting a pro bowl QB is 5-10%.
In Rd 1 its 33% and really more than that as Freeman Flacco Sanchez Stafford may go one day. In 2010 it was again- 50% as Bradford is a stud and Tebow prob wont pan.
I know that we have 1.25 but in this yr I dont think a franchise QB will be there.
I think we will win 4-6 games in 2011 because of the schedule whether we have Matt or Charlie or some other journeyman FA- i think we will draft in the top 8 in 2012 and will have a much better shot.
by Davis Hsu on Jan 20, 2011 1:05 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
2002-2009 QB analysis per round
I wish you are right- i really do because I would love to get a franchise QB at 25 in 2011.
I know Pro Bowls aren’t the total evaluation- but lets look at Pro Bowls as a percentage per rd. (2002-2009 drafts)
Rd 1 (8 of 24 qb went to PB- 7 solid starters and 9 busts)- 33%
Rd 2 (0 for 8)- 0%
Rd 3 (1 of 11- Matt Schaub) 9%
Rd 4 (1 of 9- Garrard- not grt) 11%
Rd 5 (0 of 15) 0%
Rd 6 (1 of 22- D Anderson) 5%
Rd 7 (1 of 18- M Cassell) 6%
Sorry guys- after round 1 your chances of hitting a pro bowl QB is 5-10%.
In Rd 1 its 33% and really more than that as Freeman Flacco Sanchez Stafford may go one day. In 2010 it was again- 50% as Bradford is a stud and Tebow prob wont pan.
I know that we have 1.25 but in this yr I dont think a franchise QB will be there.
I think we will win 4-6 games in 2011 because of the schedule whether we have Matt or Charlie or some other journeyman FA- i think we will draft in the top 8 in 2012 and will have a much better shot.
by Davis Hsu on Jan 20, 2011 1:05 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
2002-2009 QB analysis per round
I wish you are right- i really do because I would love to get a franchise QB at 25 in 2011.
I know Pro Bowls aren’t the total evaluation- but lets look at Pro Bowls as a percentage per rd. (2002-2009 drafts)
Rd 1 (8 of 24 qb went to PB- 7 solid starters and 9 busts)- 33%
Rd 2 (0 for 8)- 0%
Rd 3 (1 of 11- Matt Schaub) 9%
Rd 4 (1 of 9- Garrard- not grt) 11%
Rd 5 (0 of 15) 0%
Rd 6 (1 of 22- D Anderson) 5%
Rd 7 (1 of 18- M Cassell) 6%
Sorry guys- after round 1 your chances of hitting a pro bowl QB is 5-10%.
In Rd 1 its 33% and really more than that as Freeman Flacco Sanchez Stafford may go one day. In 2010 it was again- 50% as Bradford is a stud and Tebow prob wont pan.
I know that we have 1.25 but in this yr I dont think a franchise QB will be there.
I think we will win 4-6 games in 2011 because of the schedule whether we have Matt or Charlie or some other journeyman FA- i think we will draft in the top 8 in 2012 and will have a much better shot.
by Davis Hsu on Jan 20, 2011 1:05 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Haha
I kept expecting something new…but no.
Wow.
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 20, 2011 8:32 PM PST up reply actions
This I doubt:
“For every Peyton Manning taken 1st there is a Tom Brady taken in the 6th round just as successful.”
It isn’t a 1:1 ratio. I get what you are saying, that QB’s can be found later, but it most certainly is not 1:1 in comparison of starters that are first rounders compared to 6th, (or even 5th or 6th and 7th rounders.)
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 20, 2011 8:30 PM PST up reply actions
funny 'bout Favre too
Ron Wolf had wanted to draft him in the 1st round, but Atlanta got him first.
by jubelthebear on Jan 19, 2011 10:16 PM PST up reply actions
Huh- Favre was drafted in rd 2-
gB had a first rd pick and went with someone else- they were like 2 slots below ATL in rd 2
by Davis Hsu on Jan 19, 2011 10:54 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Yes and Chuck Knox wanted to draft him for the Seahawks in the early 2nd but was overruled
And we picked up Dan McGuire in the first.
That was about the time God Shammgod was playing hoops for Providence, right?
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 20, 2011 8:33 PM PST up reply actions
If you're already planning on not competing next year, why resign Matt?
You’ve already got Charlie and Nate, and it would be simple enough to pick up another guy who needs a second chance. Isn’t better to give them some playing time, on the 5% chance they succeed, rather than continuing to give playing time to someone who’s career is effectively over?
I think you are taking what Pete Carroll is saying a little too seriously John.
Pete didn’t say he would throw away a chance at a QB of the future to resign Hasselbeck to a large contract. He never said he was even going to give Hass a large contract. All he said was he was making him a priority. That’s fine, if he wants to bring him back for another year, knowing that realistically it will be another year or two until we have a young quarterback who is ready to takeover as starter, I’m okay with that. We have the 25th pick in the draft, not many franchise quarterbacks will fall to there. There’s no need to post an exhaustive analysis of why this is a mistake. Let’s wait until the final decisions are made before we go into an impulsive rant against one small comment from an end of the year interview.
As much as I will pick on John, if he wasn't impulsive with his rants and slightly irrational almost none of it would be entertaining
I will say that for now I think I need to step away from these type of places because for me I spent the entirety of the 2005 season waiting for the other shoe to drop on this team. Carrying a very similar attitude that John carries throughout this article. By the time I realized what the hawks were about to do, I had already missed my chance to appreciate it. I’m still angry about that when I see posts like this and the general attitude of “We’re gonna lose” or “expecting the worst so we aren’t disappointed” just makes me angry and instead of fighting it, which is useless I’ll just step away.
Thanks for a good season of discussion. See you next year.
by Joshua Kasparek on Jan 19, 2011 11:39 PM PST up reply actions
Slightly OT
There has been a fair amount of heated discussion here, it’s made me once again realize how damned lucky I am to have this sports blog. If you had this same discussion in 96.9% of the other football blogs in the world, it’d be nothing but WRF U R DUM LOLZCATZ! over and over. I really appreciate this. And thus ends my post that contributes nothing at all to the discussion at hand.
by somethingwitty on Jan 19, 2011 11:35 PM PST reply actions
Holy balls.
550 comments about Hasselbeck, and I didn’t get to get in this thread while it was lively? Sad days.
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 20, 2011 12:33 AM PST reply actions
It's not too late to start things back up.
It’s time for the after party!
by Hopefulmsfan on Jan 20, 2011 3:04 AM PST up reply actions
dude
it’s 2:15 am and I’m up due to my work….i’ll make it lively, start posting!!!
nevermind, i’m going to bed…sad days are back.
On ESPN yesterday Tim Hasselbeck was asked
to comment on whether Seattle should re-sign Matt (without bias!) and he replied “If you have a QB that throws 7 TDs and 1 INT in two playoff games, you re-sign them.” May have already been mentioned, and I know it means absolutely nothing, but I thought it was interesting that they were even really talking about the Seahawks.
by SeparationSunday on Jan 20, 2011 8:44 AM PST reply actions
Hard to diss your brother on national television.
Also, sports analysts tend to think that playoff performances can erase an entire regular season of sucking, in any sport. I don’t get it. If a guy sucks for 14 games, why should the last two he plays make us forget that he sucked for 14 before?
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 9:16 AM PST up reply actions
I prefer to call it
the Hasselbeck Gambit.
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 20, 2011 8:35 PM PST up reply actions
I remember when Tim suggested Matt wouldn't last through another season.
by Scruffy Lefty on Jan 20, 2011 10:32 AM PST up reply actions
Gotta love how as an analyst you can say whatever you want today because it's easy to bank on people, like me in this case, forgetting what you said earlier in the season.
Pretty funny stuff from the lesser Hasselbeck
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 12:17 PM PST up reply actions
OT
Just because I haven’t seen it anywhere and this seems to be the “live” discussion thread, anyone else see that we apparently signed the CFL’s top shutdown corner, Brandon Browner? 6’3" 205lbs, played at Oregon St.
by NinjaHawk on Jan 20, 2011 8:50 AM PST via mobile reply actions
Brandon Browner
Yes, I saw that. I love the idea of a big physical corner to combat the big WR’s. I hope he has the foot speed for the position. There are alot of CB’s that do not run 4.3. If he can run in the low 4.5 range he can play CB. Otherwise, they could use him as a SS.
There is also a chance we move Earl Thomas to CB and find another FS. I think Earl’s career will last longer if he moves to CB. His body may not hold up long. Unfortunately, Earl is short and so we would continue to have little CB’s and FS without the needed foot speed to close on the WR.
by Patches Pal on Jan 20, 2011 10:02 AM PST up reply actions
Why the hell would you move ET to CB?
by Scruffy Lefty on Jan 20, 2011 10:33 AM PST up reply actions
Because you can?
For the same reason that Seneca would going to be a WR?
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 20, 2011 11:23 AM PST up reply actions
We of course you could.
But at best ET would probably be a average corner.
by Scruffy Lefty on Jan 20, 2011 11:39 AM PST up reply actions
I think a good deep centerfielder is key for Carroll's schemes
Its what allows a Kam Chancellor/Lawyer Milloy type to play in the box more.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 20, 2011 12:53 PM PST up reply actions
This blog cracks me up.
Field gulls The number 1 source for hasselbeck hate. Aka Jon Morgan Where was the article after the playoff games of how he sucked? O that’s right 7td 1 int ( that bounce off obo’s hands). I’m not saying he’s played good but with a solid run game and decent o-line and wr that get separation he will drop dimes all day. I wonder how many of y’all played football? Instead of looking at pro football reference for percentage ( nerd snicker) how about think of the intangibles of football and that 11 players are on the field that make plays happen not just one? Obvioulsly we needed the successor to Hasselbeck already but we don’t, that’s why we get him this year, and stick with Matt for two years with whoever behind him ready to start. Or Mr. Morgan you are 100% right and Pete an John schnider are the idiots that have a little more football experience than you. Hell why don’t you put in your resume to the hawks? Lol
LOL! ROFL! STAT NERDS! FOOTBALL PLAYER ENTITLEMENT!
by Scruffy Lefty on Jan 20, 2011 10:45 AM PST up reply actions
No chatspeak means no chatspeak.
With the sudden influx of new faces/names, the mods have to enforce the rules or this place is going to turn into NN.
Lonely like cheese and baloney only / I could've broke my sacroiliac
Silly grind, Billy Jack, illy nine milli black - MF DOOM
by Wayward Llama on Jan 25, 2011 7:46 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
This place is always 100% negative during the offseason.
John does back-flips on a podcast before the Bears game, only to write an essay a couple days later on how terrible this regime is for considering Hasselbeck the starter for next year..
I don’t know about you, but there is WAY more good stuff that came out of this year than I’ve seen since around 2006/2007. Carroll and Schneider know what they’re doing, and that’s why we won the division with a banged up roster.
Would it kill the people on here to acknowledge the positives? All I hear is “Hass SUCKS,” “every other team in our division has better talent,” etc. If the Cardinals, 9ers, and Rams really did have better teams, how come we won then? Was it really a fluke? Was beating NO really a fluke? I will go out and say that the results are 90% coaching and 10% talent.
I’m personally fired up for this regime, and think we will be serious contenders within the next 3 years. I trust our FO, since they proved me wrong last year. I’m with Bigg_House on this one..
Ka-Kaaa!
by JerryNice on Jan 20, 2011 11:02 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
We won the division. Because the division sucked.
I trust the FO – But still think resigning Hasselbeck is a mistake.
I don’t get why challenging certain decisions the FO makes = This FO doesn’t know what its doing.
by Scruffy Lefty on Jan 20, 2011 11:10 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
I think that it's fair to say..
That people were up in arms a million times on this site when we traded Tapp for a draft pick and Clemons. How did that work out?
Also, starting Bryant at DE, cutting Housh, starting Mike Williams, etc.
Don’t you think at this point the FO knows a thing or two about what they’re doing?
Ka-Kaaa!
I agree with that specific move
Clemons was indeed a great find. Every week he was a pleasure to watch.
Not all the moves the FO made were great, but this one was.
The Seahawks remind me a bit of the Mariners – turning over the roster a bunch and getting rid of bad parts, while looking for valuable scraps elsewhere. Granted – both teams were terrible, so this may be a common thread amongst all extreme rebuilding efforts with new FO figures.
by BennyGStein on Jan 20, 2011 11:31 AM PST up reply actions
Surprising first year! '09 Mariners - '10 Hawks
Second year decline while continuing to rebuild the roster ! ’10 Mariners – ’11 Hawks
by Scruffy Lefty on Jan 20, 2011 11:33 AM PST up reply actions
But each person freaks out about something different. Its not always general consensus.
John enjoyed the idea of moving Bryant to DE. I loved the idea of cutting Housh to allow Obo and BMW to take a bigger roles. I was indifferent about the Tapp trade and hated the Sims and Wilson trades. (Both of those kind of bit us in the ass) I was in favor of the Whitehurst trade (Even the fact we overpaid) That doesn’t look like its going to pan out.
Of course the FO knows what they’re doing. They had a excellent draft finding contributors with each pick. They focused on building a special teams unit that was one of the leagues best. They did a lot of good and I’m sure we’re going to see quite a few trades to get more picks so they can continue the roster turnover.
But despite all the good I’m not going to blindly follow them and assume they always make the correct decision.
by Scruffy Lefty on Jan 20, 2011 11:32 AM PST up reply actions 5 recs
Definitely hate the Wilson trade. I still wear my Pistol jersey :(
He’s a free agent though! That would be a big test of Pete admitting a mistake, since CB is a glaring hole and Wilson continued to develop this year.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 12:24 PM PST up reply actions
Also, I like the Schneider/Carroll regime on the whole. But your last sentence totally summed it up perfectly.
I love Jack Zduriencik, but I think bringing in Miguel Olivo is retarded. Doesn’t mean I don’t still trust Jack.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 12:25 PM PST up reply actions
It's about process, not results.
Trading Tapp was bad process. The results were good. I’m happy the results were good, but I still wouldn’t make that trade. File the Tapp-Clemons trade in the bottom left-hand corner of this graphic

by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 12:22 PM PST up reply actions
You've got no idea what the process is
You’re conflating results with process while trying to lecture us about the concept of “results” vs “process”. Also, that chart should die a horrible death.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 20, 2011 12:55 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, focusing on the method that leads to success instead of blindly thinking every success was borne out of smart decisions should die a horrible death.
Good call!
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 1:05 PM PST up reply actions
You've got no idea what the "process" is
So why are you trying to claim that you can analyze it? You’re just trying to use some objective method to support your subjective opinion.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 20, 2011 1:08 PM PST up reply actions
We can't really know what an organization's process as a whole is, but we can look at individual moves and see the process that went into it.
For example, Bill Bavasi’s process when signing Carlos Silva was “I need a solid starter to solidify my rotation at all costs!” and then he gave him 4-years, $48 million dollars. That same year, St. Louis thought “I need a solid starter to solidify my rotation given what is available” and gave Kyle Lohse a 1-year, $2 million dollar deal. Lohse exceeded expectations, then St. Louis panicked and locked him up to a big money deal, without looking at the process that got Lohse to his results, and are likely regretting that deal now.
We can’t know an organization’s overall process, but we can break down individual moves and determine whether the dollars, cents, players given up/acquired made logical sense. Trading a young DE that has had NFL success, that you took in the 2nd round, for a 4th round pick and a 30-year-old DE who hadn’t, to the time, done anything in the NFL was bad process. But the results were good. It worked out. But it wasn’t a smart thought process that went into it.
The M’s signed Raul Ibanez in 04 to a 3 year, $13 million dollar deal after coming off of a 1.5 WAR season as a 31-year-old. He was bad at defense, and was signed to start in left field. That was bad process. However, Raul delivered 3.0, 2.2, and 3.5 WAR over those years. It was bad process, and a good result. It happens all the time.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 1:17 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Why Raul was bad process:
Bavasi, who let Cameron go for nothing (oops!) needed some lefty power to fit into LF. Though Raul had many red flags as to why he would not sustain his abilities, based on similar player types, and was a bad fit for the huge LF in Safeco as a defender, Bavasi signed him to a bigger deal than anyone else would be willing to give him. That it worked out doesn’t mean Bavasi was smart. It means he was lucky.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 1:18 PM PST up reply actions
But Tapp was not that successful
Tap was not that successful at the NFL level, he had one 7 sack season and that was with three coming against a terrible terrible Rams team. And he clearly did not fit the profile they needed for their defense.
They got a player that could actually contribute to the team because he did fit the profile, and they got themselves a pick in return.
Again your assertion that this was bad process cannot be validated.
Tapp had 18 sacks through his age 25 season...that's not great, but that's pretty good.
Clemons had 17 in his first four years…but was going into his age 28 season. Tapp also had 8 forced fumbles to Clemons’ 5 in those first four years. Tapp is also only going to be 27 next year. I like Clemons, and the move worked out…but Tapp is just entering his physical prime now, and has a bigger body of success than Clemons did, and at a younger age.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 1:31 PM PST up reply actions
Evaluating pass rushers by sack numbers is very crude
Its almost as bad as pitchers and wins.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 20, 2011 1:35 PM PST up reply actions
That's not a wide enough disparity
To say that the process is bad, especially given that Tapp actually played for a team bad enough to force him onto the field those first few years whereas Clemons was only used situationally in Philly.
Your argument really can’t be proven with your basis.
As for Tapp as a Leo, he’s way too slow. Most of his sacks came when the QB held the ball way way too long, not because of his speed. Clemons clearly fit their profile better.
No way to look at this and say their process was bad without knowing more about the specifics of the process.
You can't compare moves in baseball to moves in football at all. Period.
Baseball players are modular, interchangable parts. Football players are incredibly tied to scheme and the play of players around them.
You can evaluate baseball players in a vacuum. You can’t do the same with football players.
What you’re trying to do just clearly doesn’t work.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 20, 2011 1:26 PM PST up reply actions
I'm not comparing the sports, I'm giving an example of good or bad process relative to the environment.
Silva’s deal has no impact on the Tapp deal. It’s merely an example of bad process. Bad process means, in spite of evidence (that most likely has not been reviewed) a decision is made to bring in a bad (or at least worse than the one you had) player. That applies in any sport.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 1:32 PM PST up reply actions
In baseball, the process is transparent
In football, its opaque. You’re pretending that football transactions can be treated like baseball transactions.
You don’t understand the process so you’re conflating opinion and results with process.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 20, 2011 1:36 PM PST up reply actions
How is the process transparent? Look at what Billy Beane did this offseason...does it fit with his normal modus operandi?
No, it doesn’t. You can’t really get inside any executive’s heads…but you can break down individual moves quite easily.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 1:43 PM PST up reply actions
The parts are interchangable in baseball
They aren’t in football. Scheme has a significant affect. The sheer number of repetitions per player in baseball enables much greater certainty in statistical analysis. Every player acts in isolation on defense in baseball.
Baseball is a very simple game that can be modeled easily. Football isn’t.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 20, 2011 1:50 PM PST up reply actions
Style of team matters in baseball too. You build based on your ballpark, or your team strengths.
Some teams are defense and pitching first. Some are all about power hitting. Some are on-base percentage teams. Some are a balance. If you believe parts are interchangeable in baseball, then you don’t know enough about baseball. I’ll admit I know far less about football than baseball. That’s not a problem.
But like there are many ways to build a baseball team, there are many ways to build a football team. Baseball teams have identities, schemes, and strategies that they build their team around, just like in football. It’s just a little more…obvious, I guess, in football?
Football is the ultimate team game, and you have to work together more than in any other sport, for sure. But Josh Willingham wouldn’t be as good of a player for Seattle as he would be in Houston. His skills play much better to what Houston is equipped to do.
Tapp didn’t seem to fit Carroll’s scheme, in Carroll’s mind. But the Mariners brought in Richie Sexson, and that shouldn’t have fit the Mariners’ scheme. Just because you have an identity; just because certain skills fit your scheme better, it doesn’t mean the guy in charge is always best at identifying that skill.
We can’t know for sure how Tapp would fit as a 5-tech or LEO until he plays in that system. Maybe he is too slow, or not big enough. Maybe he’s not. Until he is tested in that scheme, it is all just speculation.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 2:04 PM PST up reply actions
How was that trade bad process?
Clemons has a different physical profile than Tapp, ie he is taller and faster. Tapp was always a guy that looked like he was playing above his physical talents.
I just want to know what part of that trade seems like it was a bad process?
by HawkSoop737 on Jan 20, 2011 12:55 PM PST up reply actions
Well, first of all, Clemons was old, and had never really done anything in the NFL.
Tapp was young, and had had some NFL success. It worked out. That doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 1:03 PM PST up reply actions
That may be true...
regarding past “success” and age, however there is almost no way that Tapp could have succeeded in the Leo End or 5-tech End position, he is too small for 5-tech and too slow for Leo. So I disagree with your assessment that it was bad process.
They likely looked for a size / skill-set profile that matched the requirements of the position for the defense they intended to run and they seem to have hit a home run.
additionally
Clemons was productive as a back up / rotational end in Philadelphia, and the FO almost certainly had enough tape to make the decision that Clemons had the more appropriate skill set vs Tapp.
Look, I'm not saying Carroll and Schneider don't do their homework and look at the tape.
But just because they looked at the tape doesn’t mean what they believe to be true is correct…they believed it was the right decision, but the Red Sox believed giving Julio Lugo four years was a good idea. The people in charge don’t always know what they’re talking about! This is the same organization that traded a 2nd and 3rd round pick for Charlie friggin’ Whitehurst. I like Carroll, and they’ve done a lot of good things.
I still think this is bad process. We don’t know how Tapp would’ve done in Carroll’s defense, because he never got a chance. Good players can adapt to new schemes.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 1:21 PM PST up reply actions
So what you are saying is...
the FO made the right decision based on all the information that was available to them at the time, but that somehow that was the wrong decision?
That’s just ridiculous. Especially in light of the Tapp trade.
Most of the moves made have turned out well, and it certainly doesn’t appear that they have overspent, with the possible exception of the Whitehurst trade, but there is still time for that to work out.
I just don’t buy that the process is bad especially when we have no idea what that process is.
Yes, because the information that the Seahawks used was not exactly the best information to go on.
Sometimes when a front office gathers all the information they believe they need, they end up with Shaun Alexander while Steve Hutchinson goes to Minnesota. Just having all the information doesn’t mean it will be used correctly.
They made what they think was the right decision. I think they were wrong. Still.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 1:34 PM PST up reply actions
How do you know what information they had?
See that is why I can’t buy into your claim that the process is bad. You have no idea what information was gathered, what was reviewed and what factored into their decision.
The same information that is available to any NFL team is also likely available to Carroll and Schneider.
Not all 32 teams would use that information the same way. By your logic, we should never be able to analyze any moves as good or bad ideas, and should just blindly trust whatever the front office does. Unless I’m misunderstanding your point. However, with the way you’ve worded it, it is very hard to take any other message from it.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 1:44 PM PST up reply actions
Not what I said at all
What I am saying is that its ridiculous to insist that a good decision was the result of bad process, when you do not know what the process is.
You can say that you didn’t like the idea, but that doesn’t in anyway mean that the process used by the ’Hawks FO was inadequate, and it really looks ridiculous when your only examples are one that turned out to be a good result and some randomness from a totally different sport.
I encourage you to write a fanpost for us to discuss all the things that went right this year.
If that’s what you would like to talk about, why don’t you make it happen instead of bitching about how no one else here will do it for you?
by Lanky on Jan 20, 2011 12:06 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I was pumped up for the playoff game, talked myself into believing we could win, and loved John trying to find rational reasons why we could win.
We didn’t. It sucked. Well, after that loss, it was time to turn the heart off and turn the brain on. And if you follow the brain, re-signing Hasselbeck would essentially be punting 2011.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 12:21 PM PST up reply actions
Well...
If " results are 90% coaching and 10% talent" and we went 8-10, well, the coaching wasn’t very good. Great coaching would win at least 12 games under that formula.
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 20, 2011 8:40 PM PST up reply actions
I think this guy said it best
Wanting Hasselbeck replaced does not mean a person hates him. All most of us here, who have been roped into the “Hasselbeck haters” category are saying is this:
I’m so sick of this.
I do not hate Matt Hasselbeck. He very well could be my favorite Seahawk ever.
Me wanting the team to find a franchise quarterback does not equate to me hating Matt Hasselbeck.
-BrianL
by jubelthebear on Jan 20, 2011 11:04 AM PST up reply actions
This should just be reposted any time "Hasselbeck haters" or "hasselhate" is posted.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 12:26 PM PST up reply actions
this.
I’m tempted to “signature” it.
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 20, 2011 8:45 PM PST up reply actions
I think I'm going to start keeping a database of links to great posts, then use them when necessary.
It feels like for every thought I have, there’s someone here who’s already said it, and better than I could.
You're not making your case very well at all
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 20, 2011 11:23 AM PST up reply actions
But it's still a case
John has certain narratives that I think are easy to get stuck in but not necessarily true. QB is the most important position on a football team, but it’s still only one position. Of the four Big Positions (QB, LT, CB, pass-rusher), we only really have one figured out. That’s a big problem. Many other important positions are left unfilled. The FO can not afford to hoodwink itself and stare blindly at the QB position. They want Hasselbeck to start? Fine. He’ll have to be replaced sooner or later, but that’s not a question of whether or not the FO prioritizes resigning Hasselbeck, that’s a question of whether or not they draft or pick up a developmental/interesting QB. This is a question not answered by Hasselbeck’s status, but by the status of the guy behind him.
Honestly, with all our needs, I could live with leaving QB unadressed for another year. Building a team and then plugging in a QB has worked for many other teams. There isn’t one absolute correct set path here.
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 20, 2011 11:38 AM PST up reply actions
But his case was lost in a series of Bob Costas styled cheap shots and illiteracy.
by Scruffy Lefty on Jan 20, 2011 11:43 AM PST up reply actions
I know
And I don’t blame anyone for not taking him seriously, but it’s still a perspective worth taking into account.
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 20, 2011 11:45 AM PST up reply actions
Hasselbeck is a replacement level player though.
They wouldn’t need to invest a lot of resources in finding an upgrade.
Probably and possibly
However, this off-season we might not have free agency, we might not have a long training camp, and I don’t like the idea of trading for another QB. I certainly wouldn’t object to starting Whitehurst instead of Hasselbeck, though this may be problematic with a new OC if we have no training camp.
I keep thinking PC’s rebuilding process is about training up young talent while having veteran bodies at positions where no immediate cheap upgrade is available. In that sense, I slot in Hasselbeck with the Brocks, Clemonses, Milloys of the team. There’s no future upside, but they help us win games now. I share people’s doubts that this is the best rebuilding method, but it’s spread over multiple positions – not just QBs – and I do understand the angle.
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 20, 2011 11:49 AM PST up reply actions
I agree with you
but the comment I was responding to makes my position look horrible.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 20, 2011 12:56 PM PST up reply actions
Clearly you are going to fit in very well here with your rational, thoughtful arguments.
Your use of formatting to make your arguments easier to read will certainly help as well. Enjoy being the blockhead who was never good enough to make it as an athlete himself.
Isn’t this guy just too cute? :)
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 12:19 PM PST up reply actions
Obvioulsly, man, obvioulsly.
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 20, 2011 8:37 PM PST up reply actions
Week 1 2010 NFL starters by Draft round
1st round -17 (I included Roethlisberger although he did not start he would have)
2nd round – 4 (Brees, Favre, Henne, & Kolb)
3rd round – 2 (Edwards & Schaub)
4th round – 2 (Orton & Garrard)
5th round – 0
6th round – 3 (Brady, Anderson, & Hasselbeck)
7th round – 1 (Cassel)
UFA – 3 (Moore, Romo, & Delhomme)
a 4th and a 2nd rounder were replaced during the season by first rounders (Orton-Tebow & Kolb by Vick)
But out of the 12 playoff teams 3 QBs were drafted after the 3rd round.
There are some decnt QB’s taken after round 1…I think everybody here would love to have Matt Schaub.
He was the 24th pick.
2nd QB taken that year. He was supposed to be picked high – then slipped to 24. Is Mallett similar in that regard?
If the seahawks can find something like that at 25 – that would obviously be awesome.
by BennyGStein on Jan 20, 2011 11:34 AM PST up reply actions
I really think Mallet is going to slip.
by Scruffy Lefty on Jan 20, 2011 11:35 AM PST up reply actions
There is that McGwire rule
Watch out for very tall QBs! Remember the tale of Dan McGwire!
by BennyGStein on Jan 20, 2011 11:39 AM PST up reply actions
Lots of people seem to think Mallett is a punkass or may have substance abuse problems.
There might be more of a ‘reason’ for his falling rather than a Quinn/Rodgers type slide.
by SgtSasquatch on Jan 20, 2011 11:36 AM PST up reply actions
I think when they start to do coaches interviews.
Locker will jump Mallet as the number 3.
by Scruffy Lefty on Jan 20, 2011 11:37 AM PST up reply actions
If we draft Locker
I hope the FO does their “due dilligence” as it were and doesn’t simply go for the home town favorite.
I’d assume Carroll would do this – since he’s already shown that he will pass on his former players.
by BennyGStein on Jan 20, 2011 11:43 AM PST up reply actions
Pete loved Jake in college.
And I’m sure they will talk a ton to Sark about Jake.
by Scruffy Lefty on Jan 20, 2011 11:44 AM PST up reply actions
Insider ear
He can get the complete low down from Sark, which is an advantage.
Plus Locker is a hometown guy – in that he seems to like to stay local. I just want whatever the best player available is.
by BennyGStein on Jan 20, 2011 11:46 AM PST up reply actions
other than that,
he’s been oddly mum… too mum I say. Honestly I wanted Locker when Bates was running the O. He’s the textbook prototype for Bates offense. But now that he’s gone, I don’t have a clue who they should draft. And sadly I know nothing of the QB’s in this years draft.
by jubelthebear on Jan 20, 2011 11:52 AM PST up reply actions
We'll still run the same type of offense.
Zone running game with rollouts and deep throws.
by Scruffy Lefty on Jan 20, 2011 11:56 AM PST up reply actions
Yes - still the need for a semi mobile QB
I’d still prefer the Aaron Rodger mold over the Tim Tebow type of runner though. Pass first . Pass seond. Pass third even. Then run if nothing is available.
Basically – a smart play caller who reads defenses quickly and knows when to run, rather than a one read and go type guy.
by BennyGStein on Jan 20, 2011 11:59 AM PST up reply actions
Yup. And I think Locker "could" get to that point.
Mallett will never really run.
by Scruffy Lefty on Jan 20, 2011 12:07 PM PST up reply actions
Mallett not much of a runner
Locker can be a bit too much of a runner, but they (coaches) can probably fix that.
We shall see.
by BennyGStein on Jan 20, 2011 12:10 PM PST up reply actions
In fairness... Locker kinda HAD to be a good runner his whole career
But how can you blame him? It worked. But I don’t think it will work as well in the NFL. And a few games and a few hard hits will teach him that lesson real quick
I think Josh Freeman is more of a model for what the Seahawks are looking for in a QB.
I’d be totally fine with that, by the way. Rodgers is just a guy who can fit any scheme, because he’s one of the top 2 or 3 QBs alive.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 12:32 PM PST up reply actions
Rodgers always throws a spiral.
Every single throw.
by Scruffy Lefty on Jan 20, 2011 12:34 PM PST up reply actions
Probably the tightest spiral in the NFL.
I have a jersey…him and Peyton are the only non-Seattle jerseys I own. But the chances you find a guy that good is rare.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 12:50 PM PST up reply actions
I was kinda hoping they
would get away from the zone scheme. The hiring of Tom Cable doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re going to zone block does it?
I dunno how capable Lynch is in a zone scheme. From what I’ve seen, he seems to have more success with assigned gaps and a fullback paving the way. I’d like to see his YPC in zone vis à vis man blocking runs. Although that wouldn’t give a complete picture, I’m just curious.
by jubelthebear on Jan 20, 2011 12:08 PM PST up reply actions
Cable is a zone blocking guy.
Marshawn ran behind a zone blocking line at Cal, he’s had success in the system.
Cable runs a ZBS with bigger OL than Gibbs
He’s less about finesse.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 20, 2011 12:59 PM PST up reply actions
Cable as an OL coach is pretty universally thought of as a great idea
The big question is about the OC/asst HC duties.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 20, 2011 1:27 PM PST up reply actions
I remember reading something from Sando in the past week that said the Hawks regime likes Mallet more than Locker
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 12:31 PM PST up reply actions
I think this is all coming from the Kiper thing.
by Scruffy Lefty on Jan 20, 2011 12:35 PM PST up reply actions
Oh. Well Kiper is an idiot, so I now trust that report less.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 12:50 PM PST up reply actions
Kiper got the Clausen pick really wrong
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 20, 2011 12:59 PM PST up reply actions
Ha ha!
I hear that. Did you know: if you google "Mel Kiper is " and don’t hit [enter], the first three things that come up are
-an idiot
-a douch
-a joke
by jubelthebear on Jan 20, 2011 1:00 PM PST up reply actions
I'd love to see a chart of the guys he picks to be "sure things" and how often they bust.
I don’t know how he keeps his job.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 1:05 PM PST up reply actions
Notoriety.
He was the “first guy” to do the draft thing… now there’s enough information out there, you don’t have to have his input, but in fairness he does do a ton of research and provides a perspective, even if we disagree with it frequently.
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 20, 2011 9:29 PM PST up reply actions
It's not so much disagreeing with his opinions so much as many of his "sure things" are busts.
That’s not an opinion—that’s just guessing wrong, and frequently.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 21, 2011 12:05 AM PST up reply actions
I hear you.
Still, someone needs to fill that airtime. I don’t mind rolling him out once a year. Kinda like “The Wizard of Oz” when I was a kid… in the 80’s, before everyone had VHS and DVD’s and 19 HBO’s and the like, once a year the Wizard of Oz was shown on regular tv.
It was kinda a big deal, and I loved the movie because I only got to see it once a year (and, I was a kid, of course.) I even remember it was a big deal when it was made available for VHS. And my family bought it, and I watched it one time with my family on VHS, and I don’t think I’ve seen it since. I just wasn’t the same.
Because Kiper keeps himself mostly hidden during the year, and ONLY deals with the draft and doesn’t try to add himself in more detailed NFL analysis, he stays alive, relevant and unique.. and I’m more than okay seeing him once a year in an extended show. (I don’t even watch ESPN anymore, so I don’t know if he pops up there more frequently or something.)
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 21, 2011 11:15 AM PST up reply actions
He was pretty noncommittal when talking about Locker in the press conference
Either he wasn’t interested or tried to sound disinterested in him.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 20, 2011 12:57 PM PST up reply actions
Well if he were interested, it's in his best interests to sound disinterested, right?
So I guess we can’t read anything into that unless he said “Jake Locker is a horrible football player and I hope he dies a slow, painful death.”
I think Walter Football does
To improve, they should try to become the musical southern cal of the west. - bRuins Nation poster on the Stanford band.
First time I heard of substance abuse
Mallet has ill-defined “off the field problems”. Unless people can define said problems, I usually ignore draftniki “personality issues” marks in this context.
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 20, 2011 11:39 AM PST up reply actions
It could be anything
from laziness in film study (which I’ve heard) to problems as a team leader (getting too down when the team is losing and having to get a pep talk from other players).
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 20, 2011 1:00 PM PST up reply actions
Dan Marino had substance whispers...
dropped him way down the draft. Makes you wonder if the Dolphins started the rumors!
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 20, 2011 9:31 PM PST up reply actions
Didn't I tell you
Last weekend I saw Gabbert and Locker snorting coke of a stripper’s ass, then they all went over to Golden’s pad and broke into a Top Pot.
With those kinds of character issues, I think teams should be concerned about taking either of them before the 3rd round.
by SmartAssCoug on Jan 21, 2011 10:51 AM PST up reply actions
Substance abuse being booze? I mean, he's a college kid. Maybe he's just not very good at hiding it.
Pot? I could care less. Unless he’s doing blow or something, I’m not worried.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 12:31 PM PST up reply actions
Well Pot would get him suspended.
And honestly if your dumb enough to get caught with Pot in your system before the draft when you know you’re going to be tested.
Then thats not the guy I want as our QB.
by Scruffy Lefty on Jan 20, 2011 12:36 PM PST up reply actions
Meh, pot doesn't really affect an athlete's ability to be good.
See: Michael Phelps, Tim Lincecum.
They shouldn’t care if someone tests positive for pot. Lots of unmotivated people smoke pot, but pot doesn’t MAKE someone unmotivated. Might as well just legalize it so it becomes the non-issue it should be. Alcohol is way more destructive to your body.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 12:52 PM PST up reply actions
Its not about the fact that they'd smoke pot
The problem is that they can’t prepare enough to avoid a drug test before the biggest interview of their life (the combine). Its about preparing for the test and taking things seriously.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 20, 2011 1:01 PM PST up reply actions
This.
I really don’t care if they smoke pot.
by Scruffy Lefty on Jan 20, 2011 1:54 PM PST up reply actions
I think most NFL teams are in the same boat
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 20, 2011 1:58 PM PST up reply actions
See Robert Parish.
How’d you think he got the nickname, “the chief” anyway?
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 20, 2011 9:32 PM PST up reply actions
I was thinking of adding starters with their original team, but did not feel like it
there are a bunch of people that traded places.
Don't know if it's been mentioned, but...
Here’s what Aaron Curry said on the subject "Best news of the week- Pete Carroll says “Signing Matt back is a top priority” Now we can continue to play championship football" (Granted, many do question his football acumen… This is a joke.)
There is nothin like a good QB controversy to divide a blog.
But the fact is this. Other then two weeks ago Matt hasn’t played a good game since he threw a game-clinching INT against the redskins……..in 08. You can blame the surrounding talent but the fact is a good QB will elevate the whole team and make average players look good. Can anyone honestly say that Matt has done that?
7 picks for 7 quarterbacks in Draft 2011! EFF IT!
by Seatown_Sport_Head321 on Jan 20, 2011 11:15 AM PST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Well we did trade away his top two WRs
I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul - Invictus
And he played behind a 5th-string LT for a while in a new system
Then he got another new system and new WRs (that run “creative” routes).
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 20, 2011 11:25 AM PST up reply actions
Well look at what he did the year before...
And the year before that…
by BennyGStein on Jan 20, 2011 11:35 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Peyton Manning had Reggie Wayne, Blair White, Jacob Tamme, Anthony Gonzalez, Donald Brown, and Dominic Rhodes as his supporting cast down the stretch, when they had to win out.
I’d say Williams, Stokley, Carlson, Morrah, Butler, Tate, Obo, Lynch, and Forsett are better than those guys Peyton had. Great QBs can deal with losing their best receivers. They just make the guys who come in for them the NEXT great receivers.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 12:35 PM PST up reply actions
So the point really only gets stronger, meaning there was yet another backup thrust into action.
I forgot Garcon though. Garcon’s decent.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 12:52 PM PST up reply actions
Matt is not the kind of quarterback that can change his team
in a good way, but he can still keep a decent offense decent. If we keep him and patch up the line this year, you’ll all be eating your hats.
The point is if Matt can do it, a lot of people can.
So why not sign a younger, cheaper guy who might have a long-term future if he improves?
But this concept is scary and means that a player I like doesn't get to suck into the sunset while I watch.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 12:36 PM PST up reply actions
Also, this is why I can't see where the outrage is coming from.
Pete Carroll talks about always competing. He’s show that he will play the player that practices the best regardless of age/pedigree/draft position. This is a built in part of his system like it or not. He clearly said he wouldn’t avoid drafting a QB if they felt they had the right fit, and in Pete’s system that QB would have as good as a shot to win the starting job as Matt.
Sam Bradford, by most accounts had fantastic season for a rookie and his performance was eerily similar to Hasselbeck’s. There are no Sam Bradfords in the draft this year, so even if you drafted ‘your guy’ you would have to expect a dip in performance. With no other (proven) worthy competition, Hasselbeck would be needed to set the ‘floor’ or else we could be looking at a Arizona/Carolina type situation.
Also, don’t forget there is a chance the Seahawks get “stuck” with Matt. If there’s no CBA, rosters will be frozen (if I understand correctly) If Matt can’t move it would be an awfully tough sell to try and force a Seattle legend into retirement. That didn’t work out too well for the Mariners. Secondly, just as likely as the CBA would require Matt to stay with the Hawks, there’s also the factor of the lack of CBA could have in limiting the FO to find a guy they like in free agency.
We don’t even know the terms of a prospective contract yet. I’m not saying this situation couldn’t turn bad, but save the gnashing of teeth until it does.
i'm confused
Hasselbeck was one of the WORST QBs in the entire league this year! How can we have a “dip” with a rookie, if we already have worst in the league type numbers?
This year Matt had a QB rating of 73, only 3 QBs had worse numbers, Jimmy Clausen, Favre and Derek Anderson. Anderson’s performance was so bad that he was replaced by a rookie, Skelton. Jimmy Clausen is a horrible rookie who was replaced during the season as well. Favre’s numbers were so horrible that they did something nothing else seemed able to do: force him to retire. So basically the QBs in the league that had worse numbers than Matt, were all either pushed to the bench or to retirement, lol.
And if you think it is just this year, here are his numbers for the last 3 years: 58. 75, 73. He has had 34 TDs vs 44 INTS, if you add in his enormous amounts of fumbles, the turnover number jumps into the mid 50’s!
I’m not sure how else people can say this, HAss is one of the worst if not the worst QB in the league. And for the pleasure of having this pile of garbage, you get to pay $10m per year for who knows how many years. It is beyond insane! Not to mention that his numbers will fall from worst in the league as he gets older. I’m not sure how they can fall any lower, but you have to expect such as he ages even more. Can Hass put up a QB rating of 15 throughout the year? Maybe if we’re lucky!
Not saying you're wrong that Hass is horrible
but QB rating is a terrible, terrible metric to base that on. Additionally, unless you can see the future, you have no idea what a contract for Hass will be.
by purplepansy on Jan 20, 2011 11:36 AM PST up reply actions
One rare instance where QB rating makes the case even more powerful
The metric has its flaws but perhaps the one thing it can do is distinguish the very good from the very bad. A really high or really low seasonal QB rating tells a pretty clear story.
It’s sorta like, “Matt was so bad even QB rating wasn’t fooled.”
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
by dcrockett17 on Jan 20, 2011 11:41 AM PST up reply actions
10 million is a pretty reasonable estimate.
Given his past salary and recent going rates for older QB’s with “veteranosity.”
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 20, 2011 9:39 PM PST up reply actions
Hasselbeck = -9.8% DVOA, Bradford -9.1% DVOA. Both bad.
Use better stats.
by SgtSasquatch on Jan 20, 2011 11:40 AM PST up reply actions
Bradford at least has a legitimate chance to improve.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 12:38 PM PST up reply actions
Yes! Potential Upside vs. On the Decline.
If we take a flier on someone that could be as bad as Matt, but has the potential to be better, or to develop, then I see that as the better option.
Ummm...
It seems like (2nd par.) you assume that the choices are Matt, rookie draft pick, or nothing. The argument that many of us are making that we could see a modest upgrade by acquiring easily available talent in the market place. For example, drafting a developmental player and trading for Kyle Orton.
Seattle cannot be stuck with Hasselbeck no matter the outcome of the CBA. He is not under contract. So Seattle will be signing a QB regardless, unless Pete and John decide to go with Whitehurst and Nate Davis.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
by dcrockett17 on Jan 20, 2011 11:37 AM PST up reply actions
Missed the big point that the ONLY options that can happen right now ARE Matt or draft pick.
by SgtSasquatch on Jan 20, 2011 11:39 AM PST up reply actions
If they can sign Matt right now can't they sign or trade for anyone right now?
Matt is an unrestricted free agent as of today, yes? In other words, he has no formal affiliation with the franchise right?
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
by dcrockett17 on Jan 20, 2011 11:44 AM PST up reply actions
Free agency doesn't begin until a new CBA is in place
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 20, 2011 11:50 AM PST up reply actions
Oh, right, uh...
I guess? Not sure.
That’s just a technicality tho’. Until the new CBA is in place no team can sign him except us. This is also true for our other FAs, like Mebane (he’s an FA right?) and Willis.
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 20, 2011 11:56 AM PST up reply actions
And if the CBA gets signed early enough to have a season, but too late to have any FA period, Mebane/Hasselebeck would have to return
and play for their 2010 Hawks plus some pro-rated raise.
by SgtSasquatch on Jan 20, 2011 11:58 AM PST up reply actions
Okay
THAT’s the part I wasn’t aware of.
Though, no FA period at all (rather than a truncated one) seems pretty far-fetched. It’s virtually certain that they would delay a season’s start for an agreed upon FA period.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
by dcrockett17 on Jan 20, 2011 12:00 PM PST up reply actions
They won't delay the season's start for anything
So if the CBA is only signed weeks before the season would start, it is very likely they will simply skip the FA period.
Pro Football Talk, of all places, had a pretty good piece on this.
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 20, 2011 12:01 PM PST up reply actions
Presumably, yes
I don’t that’s officially been determined yet, but that’s the most likely case scenario if the FA period would be too short.
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 20, 2011 12:00 PM PST up reply actions
Also pretty sure they can't trade until a new CBA is in place also.
Because if there is no CBA during the draft, there can be no player-for-picks trades.
by SgtSasquatch on Jan 20, 2011 11:55 AM PST up reply actions
Thats not exactly what Pete said
I think your analysis of the danger of continuing to rely on Matthew is pretty accurate, but I don’t think that is what Pete said.
He was asked if Matthew is the starting QB, to which he replied, “I don’t think there is any other way to look at it. Yeah, he’s our starting Quarterback, but he won’t be under contract for a while so we will have to figure that part out.”
That sounds a lot more like, “If we had a game tomorrow, Matthew would be the starter, but next year things may be different because he’s not under contract so we will have to figure that out.”
He was then asked if a decision had been made regarding Matthew’s future, to which he replied, “I told you, it is a priority. The Quarterback position is the most critical position on the football field. Matt finished beautifully for us. He did everything we asked of him. We’ve already talked, we’ve already met. John (Schneider) and I sat down with Matt already, and we’re going to move forward. We have to see what it all means, but we’re on it.”
That doesn’t even sound like a decision has been made yet, it sounds like they are in the process of evaluating next steps. I really felt like he was saying the QB position and elevating the play there and across the board was top priority.
Who knows though, we should find out in the next few weeks with regards to a new deal for Matthew.
Where are people getting this idea of big guaranteed money for Hass?
Some folks are worried about this, but I haven’t seen any sort of contract details leak out in regards to this situation. From what it sounds like, Carroll hasn’t even figured out what they’re doing with Matt yet. Did I miss an important piece of news or is this just a case where people are voicing their worry about something that may or may not happen?
Right now it's just a convenient argument against signing and then cutting Hass.
But until we know that’s not possible because of actual guaranteed money, I’m not going to discount the possibility.
by purplepansy on Jan 20, 2011 12:02 PM PST up reply actions
I gotcha...
But has there been any indication that the FO doles out big sums of guaranteed money to veterans just because of their veteran gritti-win-osity?
I just feel as though the sky is falling a bit for some people in this thread who are scared that Matt being on this team is a sure bet that he’ll be starting next year. What concrete reason is there to think so?
I don't care if he's making thirty bucks, I don't want him on my team.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 12:40 PM PST up reply actions
Even as a backup? Or as a backup to the backup?
I think that Hass has some value. Maybe not much, but some.
I don't know.
It depends on who is out there, how comfortable they are in the system, and how cost-effective they are.
Since, however, we don’t know yet who is willing to come to Seattle and for how much, nor what Matt’s asking price is, why write Hass off now?
Because he has no future, and there really should be no difficult finding someone else to perform at or above his level.
He really has been that bad. So the assumption being made by me and others is that we will have the option between Matt, and another player who is much younger, has a good possibility of playing just as well or better, has a chance to improve and stick around, and would likely be cheaper than Matt because of Matt’s veteran status and contract history. In fact, we could likely pick up more than one of these types, give them playing time, and see if someone turns out to be really good.
This is a fair perspective
But we still don’t know if Matt is coming back for one year, multiple years, or at all. We don’t know whether he has much, if any, guaranteed money coming to him if he does come back. We don’t even know how much real replacement-level talent will be out there. I don’t feel as confident as you that QB talent that is better than what Hass brings to the team (not much, I’ll admit) is readily available.
I guess that I’m just thinking that the hand-wringing should wait until he gets signed, if he does. I suppose that the folks who think that Hass is a detriment to this team no matter what would disagree, however, and while I don’t agree with that position, I do understand it.
Yup, you got it.
Essentially the biggest difference of opinion is how does Matt’s expected future performance compare to the field of soon-to-be-unsigned or available-via-trade talent. I think given Player A is 35 and expected to perform at 75% of league average vs. Player B is 26, expected to perform at 75% of league average and $2 mil cheaper, everyone is going to choose player B. But obviously there are no guarantees that these are the options.
Even as a backup. It's time to end the Hasselbeck era. He's too much of a lightning rod for controversy to justify the meager contributions he'd add as a backup.
And I doubt he wants to be a backup, anyway.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 1:23 PM PST up reply actions
I'm really surprised Matt wants to comeback
The win against the Saints looked like a good way to bow out. And it’s not like the team are close to a ring.
by Scotia Seahawk on Jan 20, 2011 12:03 PM PST reply actions
It's hard for athletes to walk away, even when the time is right.
Riding on the shoulders of Carlos Silva was a good way for Griffey to go out in 2009, and that didn’t happen.
Brett Favre… yeah.
But why wouldn’t Hasslebeck want to come back? He doesn’t think he’s done yet by any means.
So much Hasselreadiiiiiing...
Can we hire/fire some more coaches now?
The sun will shine on winter snow. And shadows fade In Excelsis Deo. GO HASSELBECK!!!
As seattl brought up,
what does anyone think the chances of Gradkowski ending up here are? Didn’t Cable play the guy over Campbell contrary to Davis’ wishes? I wouldn’t mind having him on the roster.
The sun will shine on winter snow. And shadows fade In Excelsis Deo. GO HASSELBECK!!!
Personally, I wouldn't mind having Campbell. He took a bit of a step back this year, but his last year in Washington was actually really good.
I don’t know why he’s so disliked around the league.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 1:07 PM PST up reply actions
Erm Campbell's still under contract.
I have very little recollection of what he looked like this season so I dunno… But Gradkowski has had some pretty shining moments.
The sun will shine on winter snow. And shadows fade In Excelsis Deo. GO HASSELBECK!!!
I wasn't advocating acquiring him.
I just was wondering aloud why the sentiment about Campbell seems to be “He sucks” whenever I talk to NFL fans.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 1:24 PM PST up reply actions
Campbell is staying in Oakland (he and Al recently had a lovefest in the media)
and he’s thoroughly mediocre.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 20, 2011 1:11 PM PST up reply actions
I'd say he's better than mediocre. He's also still young...
I’ve seen worse.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 1:26 PM PST up reply actions
He's Charlie's age
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 20, 2011 1:27 PM PST up reply actions
He's had much more success and playing time than Charlie.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 1:34 PM PST up reply actions
So he's got more miles on the tires?
And he’s had more of a chance to demonstrate that he’s mediocre?
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 20, 2011 1:38 PM PST up reply actions
Take a look at his numbers why don't ya? :)
Better than mediocre, especially considering who has surrounded him on those Redskins teams.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 1:45 PM PST up reply actions
Campbell has consistently done a bad job
for his entire career until last season, and he got lots of chances. Charlie hasn’t any chances yet, arguably. I watched Campbell stink it up game after game season after season in Washington, and now you’re saying he’s good, and Charlie will never improve. Get real. Campbell sucks and he always did, this is either a fluke season or a unique fit in that offense. I wouldn’t trade a 6th rounder for him.
But their other guy’s a free agent.
Since when did I say Charlie would never improve?
I don’t know if you noticed anything I said during the entire season but I was all about giving Charlie a chance to start because even if he does suck, he at least has upside. Thank you for announcing what I think for the world to see. I am glad to know what my opinion is, thanks for telling me.
Campbell has had the following DVOA’s on some pretty talent devoid Redskins teams:
2007: 4.4%
2008: 8.3%
2009: -1.8%
He’s not a star, but to say he sucks? That’s just ridiculous. Maybe show me some numbers, instead of just thinking that the fact that it is your opinion makes it true.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 21, 2011 1:30 PM PST up reply actions
Stats are overrated.
I was in D.C. and I remember him, he would sit in the pocket and wait to get sacked. Snyder was always ready to overspend, and the Redskins did have talent, they just couldn’t put it together, and the qb was a big part of that. They brought in Coles, they brought in Santana Moss, Brandon Loyd who just had a HUGE year with Bradford, Portis who was one of the best rb’s in the league when they traded for him, Antwaan Randle El, had Cooley at TE and a great LT to protect his blindside in Chris Samuels. The talent was there, and Campbell was incapable of making things happen. He sucks.
I meant to say Orton
who btw we shouldn’t trade for.
Bevell is the OC
(just fulfilling the request someone made to link to new thread/posts as discussions shift in this busy times)
(BUSY TIMES)
Alternatives?
I don’t see how resigning Matt for another yr or two would be so devastating to the seahawks future. What are the alternatives? Bring in another mediocre veteran like kitna, hill or vince young? Start a rookie day one? Start whitehurst? Hass usually plays good or is terrible. At least he can elevate his game sometimes and beat a team like the saints. That’s better than consistent average performances, at least there’s hope for greatness. The seahawks need to draft the best qb available and let him sit behind matt for a year. Do u really want a rookie behind charlie? Sign matt if he will take a 2 yr deal for what he makes now. No brainer
by sammy_d03 on Jan 20, 2011 2:24 PM PST via mobile reply actions
I agree that this opinion seems to be a no brainer.
Seriously, I wouldn’t be unhappy with consistently average. I would say someone like Flacco qualifies, and I would be thrilled to be in Baltimore’s shoes. Or Sanchez and the Jets. I’m not sure I would even call him average, but I’d be thrilled to have the team the Jets do.
I view the QB position as a revolving door at this point. Try Charlie. Doesn’t work? Try Mike Teel. No good? Give the rookie a shot. But why waste games on someone like Matt, who isn’t going to take the team to the Super Bowl?
Basically, it comes down to this, in my opinion.
Would you rather the Seahawks win 7 to 9 games every year, and never go through periods of horrible losing…
OR
Would you rather the Seahawks win 10+ games for 8-10 years, then have to suffer 3-4 years of no more than 5 wins?
I’ll take the latter. Keeping Matt keeps us mired in medocrity.
Eh?
I’ll take the latter. Keeping Matt keeps us mired in medocrity.
So you disagree with the popular sentiment that Hasselbeck is one of the worst QBs in the league and any FA would be an improvement?
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 20, 2011 3:39 PM PST up reply actions
Actually excuse me, I thought I had put them in the wrong order, I didn't.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 3:42 PM PST up reply actions
I thought I was wrong once
but I was merely mistaken.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 20, 2011 3:44 PM PST up reply actions
I agree that Matt is one of the worst QBs in the league and that any FA is an improvement.
However, I feel like when you get a new QB, either you strike gold and he becomes your franchise guy, or he sucks, you have a horrible year, and you cut that sucky free agent. I guess there’s just more variance between what a FA can do…Matt’s one of the worst QBs in the league to get consistent playing time. There are worse QBs, but they get benched…for whatever reason, we ignore Matt being bad up here. I figure we can win 6-9 with Matt, unless he somehow gets worse than, say, Jimmy Clausen. And I believe we would continue to play him, because if Matt’s starting, clearly our backup plan sucks.
So, doing things the Matt way (going with what you know, even if it’s not great) would be a 7-9 type of franchise, I believe. Going the FA/Draft way means you get your next guy, and he either pans out, or you keep starting over until you get your guy. I’d rather do that.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 20, 2011 3:46 PM PST up reply actions
I agree.
I think, although it was an unfortunate conversation, that we should treat next year kinda like we treated the Saints game. Hasselbeck was the boom or bust option and you kind of have to take a chance in order to compete. Next year I don’t see SF or STL performing as poorly as they did this year, and so there’s a pretty good chance 7-9 doesn’t win the division next year. I’d rather take a chance on a guy that has a chance to elevate us to at least a winning record, because I do think 9-7 could win the division, than stay with Hass for another hear.
That being said, I think without an unbelievable draft and some smart FA pick up we probably are rebuilding next year. Starting Whitehurst in a situation like that isn’t the worst thing in the world we could do.
To add to this, I don't think Kolb is going to be an option,
but I think that acquiring a guy like Kyle Orton or Vince Young may not cost as much as a guy like Kolb, and considering their age we could at least hold onto them and compete in a couple of years, where we would have a more established team and we can then take the chance of grabbing a young qb in the draft. I don’t think this year is the year to take a flier on a guy.
I know you love baseball.
Was Adrian Beltre one of the worst third baseman in the league in 2009? Did he not deserve the playing time? Of course he deserved the playing time. His performance was awful because of his hitting environment, he was miscast as a middle of the order hitter, a conglomeration of injuries, and a cumulative mental effect of those and other factors. When put in a more favorable situation, Beltre showed his talent and was a fringe MVP candidate. The context and environment of performance matters.
Yes, Matt’s numbers look like “one of the worst QBs in the league”. What was the context of those numbers?
Adrian Beltre is such a great defensive 3b, he deserved time for that even if he hit .200.
Matt Hasselbeck’s context is that he’s aging and deteriorating quickly, there isn’t a statistic available that says he is even AVERAGE over the past three seasons (and most say he’s one of the worst), his team hasn’t won with him at the helm… and unlike Beltre, he can’t play defense.
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 21, 2011 11:19 AM PST up reply actions
Beltre is a middle of the order hitter outside of Safeco. Maybe not a cleanup hitter, but a good 5 or 6 guy.
Beltre also had one “bad” year with Seattle, in 2009, where he was still above average overall. He was worth his contract, even including that “bad” season.
Hasselbeck has been bad for 4(!!) of the last 5 years. 06, 08, 09, and 10. Beltre’s bad season, when presented in a larger sample size, looks like more of a blip on the map. Hasselbeck’s good year, in 2007, looks like the blip in his larger sample size.
Environment doesn’t really matter as much in football since every field is the same. Weather plays into it, but doesn’t really get too crazy until the last month of the season. Context wise? Well, pass blocking was averageish or better in 2010, below average in 2009, bad in 2008, and still pretty decent in 2006. The receivers were good in 2006, ok in 2008, bad in 2009, and ok in 2010.
Adding context only makes Matt look worse.
by BrettJMiller on Jan 21, 2011 1:35 PM PST up reply actions
This is pretty much the exact thing I was thinking.
You cannot compare this to the Beltre situation because you have to completely ignore his defensive production to ever make an argument that he was bad.
Actual numbers
Number of attempts: rank 18, between Cassel and Fitzpatrick
Completion percentage: rank 21, between Cutler and Bradford
Yards per game: #23, between Freeman and Cassel again
Interceptions: 7th most, between Peyton Manning and Cutler again.
Sacks: 15th most, between Henne and Freeman.
Every time I sort the list, Cutler, McNabb and Cassel are nearby. The only place where Hasselback is decidedly at the bottom is TDs. He threw the fourth fewest TDs in the league. That’s the number that’s keeping his quarterback rating four points behind McNabb’s. This is on the team with the very worst rushing game in the league. I wouldn’t put money on, say, Orton coming in and doing any better at all.
Uhm, you realize that, well...
Cassel had one of the top running offenses in the league, it’s not a surprise his attempts were down. They didn’t want or need to pass as often as us.
Fitzpatrick had a running game that was good enough that they sent their 3rd RB to us…
Completion percentage— 21st. This is TERRIBLE for a west coast offense. I don’t even know the percentage, but that’s terrible. West Coast is predicated on short high percentage passing.
Yards per game— in between two QB’s of teams with better records, teams that ran the ball well. Hasselbeck on the other hand, was often “throwing from behind” and picking up late yardage padding in games already lost.
Interceptions— bottom half of the league, surrounded by QB’s who threw more, had more yardage, and had more TD’s.
Sacks— middle of the league. YAY!
I don’t know. I see low end stats by a low end QB…
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 20, 2011 10:00 PM PST up reply actions
Matt Hasslebeck is the best QB available.
There is nothing wrong with the numbers stated at the beginning of this piece, or the reality that Matt Hasslebeck injured his glutemus running unabated into the end zone.
But review what “moving on” get us. Alex Smith? Vince Young? Or fill in the blank with any other middle tier to crappy QB prospect out there. Basically it is a wash. Sorry, the decent QB’s will be gone at slot 25 this year. That is reality.
Carroll and Co. obviously know Matt can’t hold beyond 2 more seasons. However, what is the key to getting the most out of Matt Hasslebeck?
Keep his #%#% jersey clean. Kurt Warner was a fragile, old QB when he got the backup job at Arizona. (And Hasslebeck is no Warner.) The key to Warner’s rehabilitation, basically as an immobile, medieval cannon, was — keep his jersey clean. No running around. Targets who get open. Solid line.
That can work in Seattle. There is nothing out there that is palpably better. There are YOUNGER guys with more upside. That’s it. Many of whom, I bet a nickel, would have struggled as much as or worse than Matt behind the 2010 patchwork line, inconsistent OC, and mediocre to OK receivers.
So get an offensive line, Tom Cable, and one more Tight End or Wide Receiver. Reboot in training camp with 4 or 5 QB’s, one being Matt Hasslebeck.
That’s the best option.
Oh and the Krieg history. That is kind of relevant and kind of not. Everything that happened in the early nineties is distorted by that (unspeakable) Behring. Knox resigned because the Hawk’s passed on Brett Farvre. All that other stuff about the “painful process of becoming a good team again” isn’t accurate when referencing those ’90’s Seahawks and that front office. The Seahawks spent a number of years going through the painful process of being a terrible team trying to get worse and destroying Cortez’s hall of fame shot.
I think that making the kind of jump in the O line that would be needed in order for Hass to be effective
is a little much to ask for. I agree with your premise that Hass could be the best available option with a better O line, I think we are 2 O lineman away from having that happen. I still think getting someone in FA is or best option.
The word is that Robert Gallery is likely to follow Cable
and Cable’s coaching should help the OL.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 20, 2011 9:52 PM PST up reply actions
Is that word being generated anywhere but Seattle?
I would be thrilled, but I haven’t actually heard the probability outside of Seahawk fans loving it.
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 20, 2011 10:03 PM PST up reply actions
Every Seattle beat writer is mentioning it
and the Raiders punter said that Gallery is likely to follow Cable.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 20, 2011 10:50 PM PST up reply actions
That seems like a long shot to really put the O line to the level that Hass would need to be effective.
The thing about Gallery is hopeful, and having a new O line coach is pretty exciting, but do you really think that Gallery and Cable are going to transform the O line into one that will allow Hass to be effective? We are going to need Hutch and Jones back for him to play at the level he needs to play to give us a playoff chance.
I'm not going to get into the Hasselbeck debate
but I think Gallery + Cable could help the running game.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 20, 2011 10:51 PM PST up reply actions
I agree.
But I do think it is possible.
Okung, Gallery, Spencer, (whomever rises to take the spot) and a 1st round tackle to play the right side— that’s a relatively young talented OL who could help the running game and protecting our plodding ancient Hasselbeck.
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 21, 2011 11:21 AM PST up reply actions
It will improve the running game and help protect Hass
but it will also protect another QB we could get in FA that’s better than Hass, and I think we could do better than Smith or Young.
Oh, I agree fully.
I’ve simply moved past hating the return of Matt, and have resigned myself to it. This is the best possible path for team improvement in my eyes, given that the return of Matt is all but a done deal.
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 21, 2011 4:01 PM PST up reply actions
The only good thing about this potential lockout
is that it may delay free agency until after the draft. I personally hate the idea of re-signing Matt before the draft and then finding out one of Newton/Locker/Mallett is available at 25. If we get to the draft and they are all off the board, we can at least draft talent that both makes us better in the future but also augments whatever Matt gives us in 2011. It makes the decision to re-sign him more palatable.
However, if we end up re-signing him before the draft, one has to expect that the draft would then be all about finding immediate contributors that build around Matt’s 2 year “window”
by SmartAssCoug on Jan 21, 2011 12:05 PM PST up reply actions
You are right it isn't a sure thing.
I just think it is easier to fill the gaps on the line via draft and free agency than QB.
Remember, we drafted Macgwiver and Mirer high first round. Stouffer was a first rounder. Fail, Fail, Fail, and that Bears trade was a bad trade – at the time. Stouffer and Macgwiver were beat out by Stan Gelbaugh, and Stan was terrible. That is what is out there. A bunch of freaking Stan Gelbaughs and one or two guys who will revitalize their QB career and top out as 11th best in the NFL for a year or two.
Yeah, roll the dice, pick one of those stiffs up in free agency and resign Matt.
Franchise QBs come from the 1st round of the draft more than anywhere else. Have you read this thread?
by BrettJMiller on Jan 21, 2011 1:35 PM PST up reply actions
All 1000 comments? heck no!
You are right. Another true thing is those can’t miss QB prospects are gone by pick 15 or so, and half of the can’t miss prospects, miss. I’m suggesting it may not be in our interest to draft at 25 just for the label “first round QB”.
by Jon Springer on Jan 21, 2011 8:41 PM PST up reply actions
I've got to disagree with you
I think you are confusing two very different situations here. Letting Kraig go was the right decision at the time. However, letting Matt Hasselbeck go would be a major mistake. First, we currently have NO quarterback who can run the offense. Second, a rookie quarterback would also be a mistake without having a veteran to mentor him. This has happened to most rookie quarterbacks starting without a mentor. (Alex Smith…..) Third, Matt is an extremely accurate quarterback who has 0 talent surrounding him. The decline of Matt Hasselbeck can be directly traced to the decline in the talent surrounding him. I believe given a good line and running game, and recievers who don’t drop the ball or bat them up into the air causing interceptions, Matt is still one of the top quarterbacks in the league. Just one mans opinion.
by David Robinson on Jan 22, 2011 11:46 AM PST reply actions
First, it's Krieg, not Kraig.
Second, we DO have a quarterback who can run the offense other than Hasselbeck. Or did you not watch the game that got us into the playoffs?
There is no proof at all that rookie needs “a veteran to mentor him.” You reference Alex Smith, fine. I’ll reference Matt Ryan and Peyton Manning. Both of whom started the first NFL game they suited up for.
Matt is NOT an extremely accurate QB. He was in 2005. It’s 2010.
The decline of Matt Hasselbeck coincides with the decline of the talent surrounding him. But the talent surrounding him also has struggled due to the poor performance of the QB—- see, that works both ways. His decline also more strongly coincides with the typical decline that pro QB’s in their 30’s experience. You do realize he’s 35, right? You do realize he had his best season at 29 years old, right? You do realize that regardless of talent, Matt Hasselbeck has been BAD 4 of the past 5 seasons, right?
And only in two years of his career that has spanned over a decade, (2005 and 2007) could you even make an argument that “Matt Hasselbeck [was] one of the top quarterbacks in the league.”
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 22, 2011 12:51 PM PST up reply actions
Oh man tell em' Whiskey tell em', the truth hurts.
I love what Matt did in his day and his performance against the Saints was amazing, He is a good guy and should be respected for what he’s accomplished in Seattle. Its time to move on though. To say he doesn’t have talent around him is not true, He has a lot of talent around him and yes he gets pressured too much due to a weak O-line but in today’s league you need to be either quick as all hell, illusive, or have a premium O-line, just being an accurate thrower won’t save you from Clay Matthews etc…..
This.
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 23, 2011 12:20 AM PST up reply actions
He's using notes from 2005.
(Just like Brian Billick, when he called our defensive line “smallish” in an early season game.)
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 24, 2011 3:43 PM PST up reply actions
So...
Does this mean no Vince Young/ Kevin Kolb/ Shaun Hill/ etc.?
No
It means we’ve got no idea whether any of those guys can be signed and that we need to make sure, in case all of our upgrade options fall through, that we’ve got a guy that can start next year.
How has Pete Carroll failed you today?
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 23, 2011 10:52 AM PST up reply actions

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