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The legacy of Kitna


Hello Seahawk fans, Bengals fan here hoping to get some of your thoughts.  As you may have heard, Carson Palmer is apparently demanding to be released by Cincinnati and there are contentious (as has been for the last several years) views on how good of a QB Palmer really is.  My personal viewpoint is we should never have drafted Palmer and made Jon Kitna (especially after he had a probowl year for us in 2004) our permanent QB.

Now, I am considering doing a piece on why I think we should have stuck with Kitna and am hoping to get some opinions from other teams' fans, who he's been on.  Part of my theory is Kitna has never been set up for success (having been on losing teams, had inadequate offensive lines, not given enough time to develop chemistry with his recievers, etc.) and if he'd been given enough time with decent surroundings, he'd have developed into a solid NFL QB.  Obviously, I can get his stats (which are less than stellar with your team), but was wondering what your ultimate, subjective, opinion of his was.

Do you think he could have panned out to be a legitimate QB?  What was his offensive line/protection like?  Did he have enough time and adequate weapons to be successful?  Did his OC set him up for success?  Etc.

Any comments and analysis you can provide will be much appreciated.

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Its really hard to say what Kitna could have been.

I feel he really could have been a starter somewhere but his good tail end of the year with Dallas I think was also a product of a lot of players around him going extra hard in fear they would be fired with the changes going on down there. As Seattle fans we have a long history of QB’s that didn’t work out for us so whether or not he could have been or not is so hard to tell and I think we just chalk him up as another one on the list that didn’t work out. What are you guys gonna do with OCHO let him go so he can play with us please lol.

by IMIN4LIFE on Jan 23, 2011 12:41 PM PST reply actions  

You can have Chad

at this point, most Bengals fans would take a bag of dorritos for him. The latest rumors is we may trade him to Oakland (since Hue Jackson, Cincinnati’s former recievers coach who Chad was pretty close to is now the HC there).

Moisture is the essense of wetness, and wetness is the essense of beauty.

by Blue Steel on Jan 23, 2011 2:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Chad Johnson

I’d rather my scrotum be removed, tanned, and used as part of a gag to cover my own mouth during a prison-style shower-assault episode than have that dude wear Seattle blues.

Trade him to a team that already has an established, equally egomanical 85 on their team… and LAUGH YOU STOCKINGS OFF.

“What’s your last name again, Jackass?”

Most of my cliches aren't original.

- Chuck Knox

by Azimeir on Jan 23, 2011 7:35 PM PST via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

Well, I wouldn't have minded him four years ago.

When he was still good.

"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw

by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 24, 2011 6:21 AM PST up reply actions  

I dunno, I would rather Azimeir stop beating around the bush

…and clue us in on where he sits relative to Chad Johnson. I wish he would just state his opinion clearly, and stop being so evasive.

by IslandHawk on Jan 26, 2011 5:35 PM PST up reply actions  

hasn't Hasselbeck been pretty solid for you though?

Got you to a superbowl at least, which you unfortunately got jobbed on by the f’n refs.

Moisture is the essense of wetness, and wetness is the essense of beauty.

by Blue Steel on Jan 23, 2011 2:20 PM PST up reply actions  

I didn't watch Kitna much with us

but after doing some research and from what I remember he was the ultimate “game manager QB”. It seemed like early on he made it very apparent that his ceiling was the Sanchez (09), Collins, Bradford model. Can’t make a play down field, very cautious, but “knows how to manage a game”. Whatever the really means. Kitna’s problem was that he fumbled all the damn time. IMIN4LIFE nailed it, his year in Dallas seemed to be more from the fact that they were talented and probably the most talented team he has ever played on. Which is sad but at the same time, so it goes. Still though, I know I’m not the only one to cheer for him cause he played at CWU!

From The Hawks Nest - Seahawks Podcast
http://www.http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/from-the-hawks-nest/id385227705

by Hancock.Brett on Jan 23, 2011 4:59 PM PST reply actions  

I remember Kitna as a gunslinger

but without enough gun. He performed when the deck was stacked against him, but then he levelled out. He took us to the playoffs, had Ricky Waters getting it done behind him and I think the line did well. Maybe he just seemed really good in the beginning, since less was expected, I don’t remember. I’d get excited to see him out there sometimes. A less-talented Tony Romo? I don’t think I’d trust him as the franchise qb year in and yeaar out, his ceiling is too low. Palmer on the other hand was a good talent who had injury issues. My opinion is they made the right call.

by seattl on Jan 23, 2011 6:30 PM PST up reply actions  

Champion

of Mediocrity.

I think Kitna’s career shows rather perfectly what he is. If you were ever going to create a prototypical back-up QB, Kitna would be a good place to start; competent QB who can help you win when all the other ingredients are present but never so good that he’d create a legit QB controversy with your real starter or heir apparent.

Like Trent Dilfer, probably could’ve won a Super Bowl with the Ravens in 2000, maybe the Bears in ‘06, but I don’t think he ever could’ve been an integral contributor to a top-flight offense.

The perfect back-up quarterback.

Most of my cliches aren't original.

- Chuck Knox

by Azimeir on Jan 23, 2011 7:28 PM PST via mobile reply actions  

well said

From The Hawks Nest - Seahawks Podcast
http://www.http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/from-the-hawks-nest/id385227705

by Hancock.Brett on Jan 23, 2011 8:52 PM PST up reply actions  

The Niners, Cardinals, Dolphins Panthers Vikings and Browns all would have benefited from having Kitna on their teams

Some teams have young QBs that need to be tested on the field to see if they can cut it or not, but all of them would have finished with better records than what they had if Kitna had started a majority of their games this season; the Niners would have won the NFC West if they gave Kitna 10+ starts.

I’m not saying that he’s actually an above-average starting QB, but at least one of these teams should have tried to pry him from Dallas. Yeah, the Cowboys are happy with him now, but before this season I doubt they would have demanded much to let him go. Kitna didn’t go to Dallas because he thought he had a good chance to unseat Tony Romo (or has psychic powers and foretold his broken clavicle); he’s there because no other team made a real push to acquire him. He wasn’t that bad when he was a Seahawk, and you could say that each time that he got a legitimate chance to start since he left (rare as that has been) he has excelled.

Kitna has been typecast as a backup QB due to a lack of imagination of NFL GMs….and, yeah, he’s not really THAT good. But any given season Jon Kitna is better than AT LEAST 5-10 other starting QBs in the league. (That doesn’t necessarily mean he was better than Carson Palmer in his prime, though.)

by J.L. White on Jan 24, 2011 12:35 AM PST up reply actions  

I agree with this.

He’s a MUCH better QB than Dilfer ever was.

"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw

by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 24, 2011 6:23 AM PST up reply actions  

Kitna and Holmgren didn't get along

If I remember right, especially since Kitna wasn’t Holmgren’s man, but was Dennis Erickson’s. seattl is right, Kitna was a gunslinger, but he took so many crazy chances and forced things it drove Holmgren crazy. He had problems managing the ball, and Holmgren was all about ball control. If you wanted a three-and-out that only took one minute off the clock, Kitna was your guy back then. He’s really matured into a good go-to guy for other teams, but there’s no way him and Holmgren were going to co-exist in the long-term.

I don't know what your problem is, but I bet it's really hard to pronounce!

by Kittrick on Jan 23, 2011 10:59 PM PST reply actions  

Kitna just wasn't a WCO quarterback.

He got a raw deal in SEattle after ‘99, but at the same time I don’t blame Holmgren for wanting to bring in his own QBs (and I believe it worked out just fine for Seattle). The real tragedy is that it took a couple of years for Kitna to get another chance to start again.

by J.L. White on Jan 24, 2011 12:41 AM PST up reply actions  

Wasn't Kitna's record 6-2 before the Galloway holdout mess ended?

I was young when it happened, but I remember being impressed with Kitna prior to Galloways return. I’m not sure if I am correct or justified in my opinion, but I haven’t liked Galloway since that season. I always seemed like cancer on a team…again I was young and not educated on the “behind the scenes” mess that I read about daily now.
Oh yeah, I love Kitna and feel he never got the full hand he was dealt…FYI I’m a CWU grad!
Go Wildcats and Hawks

by bonecruncher on Jan 24, 2011 9:57 PM PST up reply actions  

Pro Bowl year?

I do recall he was NFL comeback player of the year in 2003 but wasn’t he injured in 2004?

Also, when you drafted Carson in 2003 Kitna was already 31. That really should be all the answer you need.

by Thomas Beekers on Jan 24, 2011 9:50 AM PST reply actions  

actually, I stand corrected

I thought he made the pro bowl in the 2003 season, but I think he was just an alternate. Still, he had a very solid season. The Bengals however had already drafted Palmer before that season, but elected to sit him behind Kitna (who was comin goff a strong 2002 year) for the entire season.

Moisture is the essense of wetness, and wetness is the essense of beauty.

by Blue Steel on Jan 24, 2011 12:09 PM PST up reply actions  

And that was a good decision

But Kitna was then entering his age 33 year. What value would the franchise have got from sticking with him?

by Thomas Beekers on Jan 24, 2011 12:35 PM PST up reply actions  

instead of selecting a QB, who I feel is overrated

stick with Kitna who was getting the job done and draft/pay for better linemen (on both sides). Instead of paying Palmer $118M for 6 years, we could have had an average QB (who would probably be better than Palmer) with a better team.

In the upcoming years, we coul dhave drafted someone like Aaron Rodgers to wait in the wings of Kitna. Or… we could still be playing Kitna…

Moisture is the essense of wetness, and wetness is the essense of beauty.

by Blue Steel on Jan 24, 2011 1:58 PM PST up reply actions  

Hindsight is 20/20

Drafting a franchise QB when your starter is a career backup in his 30s is the right call.

by Thomas Beekers on Jan 25, 2011 3:22 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

My take is that Carson Palmer in his prime was quite a bit better than Kitna

But his prime was short and coincided with some pretty bad Bengal defenses. By the time the Bengals defense came around, Palmer was past his prime. So was Kitna.

I don’t see Jon Kitna making the 05-10 Bengals better than they were.

All you can really do is play a ‘what if’ game. What if the Steelers don’t take out Palmer’s knee in the 05 Wildcard game? I believe the Bengals would have won the game. Maybe they would have played the Seahawks in the Superbowl. More likely, the Colts would have defeated them in the next round and gone on to defeat Denver and Seattle…

What if instead of drafting Carson Palmer, the Bengals had taken the next player picked in 03: WR Charles Rogers. Safe to say they’d be even worse. But what if they’d taken Andre Johnston, or Troy Polomalu or Kevin Williams or Nnamdi Asmougha or one of the other perennial probowlers that came out of that draft.

What if What if…

by Keasley on Jan 25, 2011 8:13 AM PST reply actions  

Palmer is only 31

since 2005, he’s been on a steady decline during the “prime” of his years. Even in that Pittsburgh game, Kitna led us to a 17-7 point lead at the half. What killed us was Pittsburgh coming back and racking up 24 points on our worthless defense. Yea, maybe Palmer would have won the game, though if that wasn’t Kitna’s first playing action all season, he might have beaten the Steelers himself.

Many bengals fans disagree with me, but I feel Palmer just isn’t mentally strong enough to adjust to the ever increasing-complicated defensive schemes in the NFL. And after the first 2-3 years, teams figured him out pretty quickly and he has been on the decline ever since.

If I had my pick from that draft, I would have either traded down or gone with Kevin Williams – though hindsight is 20-20 as one of you mentioned earlier. But as clearly evidenced, Kitna was progressing every year until they forced him on the sidelines. Had he continued, I feel he probably would have only gotten better. Maybe not an all-pro, but a dependable Qb who doesn’t cost the $15M/year that Palmer gets.

Moisture is the essense of wetness, and wetness is the essense of beauty.

by Blue Steel on Jan 25, 2011 10:28 AM PST up reply actions  

Wow.

I’ve not heard this perspective.

I would say that the take from everywhere outside Cincy is that his knee injury derailed his career, but he was on his way to elite status when it happened. Now admittedly we didn’t watch every game close up, but I’m pretty sure you should judge him pre/post injury and chalk it up as bad luck that he got hurt, and not play a what if game with other draft picks.

"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw

by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 25, 2011 10:36 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

that's been way overblown

arguably his best year was the following year, where he actually won Probowl MVP honors. Some claim he hasn’t been the same since his elbow injury in 2008, but I think that’s been overblown as well and I don’t buy it.

Moisture is the essense of wetness, and wetness is the essense of beauty.

by Blue Steel on Jan 25, 2011 12:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Interesting take.

I’m not wholly sold that injury hasn’t waylaid his career, but you are closer to the situation.

"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw

by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 25, 2011 1:54 PM PST up reply actions  

there are many Bengals fans would subscribe to that

but I, along with others, don’t buy it. Palmer is a great guy, has all the physical tools you need in a QB, has led our team to more success than we had all throughout the 90’s, I have his jersey, but sadly, I feel he might be the most overrated player of the decade. And it took me 8 years to finally admit that.

Moisture is the essense of wetness, and wetness is the essense of beauty.

by Blue Steel on Jan 25, 2011 4:27 PM PST up reply actions  

Well...

if it took you 8 years to “finally admit” he was overrated… maybe he wasn’t overrated?

"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw

by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 26, 2011 7:20 AM PST up reply actions  

The most damning thing about Jon Kitna...

…is that Mike Holmgren benched him because of his arm strength, and then went out and got Matt Hasselbeck. Even Matt Hasselbeck’s noodle arm – and it never was particularly strong – was a better asset than Kitna’s.

On the plus side, I thought he was pretty mobile and was good at improvising. He was particularly good at making something from nothing on busted plays, and I know that that was a huge positive for him in the minds of Seattle fans. That same mobility and playmaking caused him to get sacked a lot and to lose the football. I personally didn’t mind the latter so much because even in that it reminded me of Dave Krieg (although Krieg had a much better arm), and in addition with Kitna he was a local boy from a small school (Central Washington University) with no expectations of an NFL career, so any success that he had was a bonus.

He developed a special rapport with Joey Galloway and when Galloway held out in ‘99 and came in late in the season and ineffective, that more or less spelled Kitna’s doom here in Seattle. I still think he could have been a pretty decent starting NFL quarterback if Dennis Erickson hadn’t gotten fired. Erickson seemed to understand how to use him. Later, he seemed to have success wherever he went – Cincy, pushing out Joey Heisman in Detroit, subbing for Tony Romo this year and making the Cowboys look semi-respectable in the second half of the season – which seemed to prove that idea that, given the chance, he could have excelled. But not under Holmgren – despite others’ recollections of him as a “safe” QB, he was way too much of a gambler for the Walrus – and ultimately not with Seattle.

by Johnny Slick on Jan 29, 2011 9:06 AM PST reply actions  

Okay, hold on here---

I don’t recall it being “because of arm strength.” I thought it was more ball security/decision making, and he wasn’t a good fit for the west coast.

"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw

by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 29, 2011 6:22 PM PST up reply actions  

I specifically remember at least what I thought to be the final Holmgren decision on the subject...

…in a game vs. Kansas City where he tossed up a last-ditch quasi-hail mary pass that he hooked way up in the air and the ball still fell around 15 yards short of the end zone. After the game, Holmgren didn’t even get angry at him, and it was at that point that I knew his days in Seattle were done. That was early 2000. In fact, I’m pretty sure it was this game:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200010290sea.htm

If memory serves, Holmgren’s issue wasn’t with weird decision making, it was with weird decision making that didn’t come through with results. He coached Bret Favre for years, and Favre particularly early in his career was the greatest example there ever was of a guy who made dumb decisions but managed to get out of them through sheer ability and guile. Even Hasselbeck drove Holmgren fairly up the wall when he first came over (in practice, I guess; despite Hasselbeck talking about how he gave Holmgren regular heart attacks here, my memory of his first stint was lots and lots of check-offs). I can’t for the life of me find anything but I know I’ve seen both Holmgren and Hasselbeck comment that Hass drove the Walrus crazy with his decision-making and only learned to live with it over time.

My point here is that although Holmgren liked to talk big about guys not making mistakes under him as QB, in practice he’d let you do that as long as you could still make things happen with the football.

by Johnny Slick on Jan 29, 2011 9:18 PM PST up reply actions  

My problem with the comment that it was arm strength is that Kitna had then and still has now, more "arm" than Hasselbeck.

I think saying it was his arm was creating a reason or laying into a reason when it wasn’t the actual reason.

"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw

by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 29, 2011 9:56 PM PST up reply actions  

I definitely agree that Kitna has a better arm than Hasselbeck now.

I don’t know that that was the case in 2001 and 2002. I agree that Hasselbeck was much better suited to the WCO than Kitna ever was and that was why Holmgren traded for the guy. I don’t think Holmgren was actively thinking about trading for Hasselbeck in mid-2002, though. I think at that point Holmgren was still thinking he could fit Kitna into the mold or else move Brock Huard into the position, and it was only after both failed that he pulled the trigger on Hass.

by Johnny Slick on Jan 29, 2011 10:07 PM PST up reply actions  

But both were closer to the Favre mold than the true west-coast mold.

Brock and Kitna both had stronger arms than Hasselbeck, but weren’t as “west coasty” with their decisions. Both were better play action vertical guys, as both were happy to throw that ball downfield.

And I think Kitna had a better arm than did Hass back then, but it was closer than it is today…

"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw

by Tyler Jorgensen on Jan 30, 2011 9:03 PM PST up reply actions  

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