Word of Muth: No Huddle Hawks

FO's offensive line columnist, Ben Muth, is back on the Seahawks. He breaks down some bits from the 'Hawks-Giants game last week. He has some really nice things to say about Max Unger.

7 months ago robbbbbb 34 comments 1 recs |

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High on Unger, high on Moffitt, not particularly high on Carpenter.

I really, really hope Muth is missing something and it’s not an ability gap with Carp. Specifically, I hope the slowness is just residue from coming to camp out of shape, having a shortened rookie camp, etc.

"It's okay to have an open mind, just not so open that your brains fall out." - Carl Sagan (well, a lot of guys)

by Johnny Slick on Oct 20, 2011 8:06 AM PDT reply actions

sort of interesting for Carpenter

In one phrase he says ability gap and then later he says that he sees flashes. I guess one turn of phrase seems damning while the other shows the ability to be coached. I would error on the he just doesn’t know the techniques and is slow cause he is afraid to make mistakes… its going to be a slow process and I hope he figures it out, I think its going to be an up and down one. Maybe the bye was helpful for him.

Also I don’t think anyone on the Giants as a D-Tackle compares to Darnell Dockett that Moffit had to face, so I am not sure if you can really point to an improvement for him. Not to say that he hasn’t just that well.. it wasn’t Dockett. We should grab another Wisconsin guard for the Left side next year those guys are massive!

by Jazzercise! on Oct 20, 2011 9:08 AM PDT up reply actions

He's just not developing as quickly as Moffitt has thus far, not a concern

in and of itself. I thought there was some reason for concern, early on, just because some of how he wasn’t performing well, the starting point of his career, was treading some uneasy territory that didn’t bode well for his career. You can read very little about a career in the first few games, of course, but far fewer careers start out that rocky and still turn out to be very good.

So there was concern but also heaps of reason to not be alarmed and to just be patient and see how it turns out. Still have some issues to work out but there has been noticeable progress in just a handful of games, so I’m not concerned. This time next year, if little improvement has come about, concern will creep back in.

Head of catering.

by jacobstevens on Oct 20, 2011 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions

Carp wasn't in shape to start the camp

No-huddle takes a lot of energy from both the OL and the DL. If his conditioning still isn’t where it should be, he might be struggling through some of the longer drives. He’s going to get tired and slow down.

This is all before we take into account the common rookie issues of inconsistency, adjustments to a greater play speed and the so-called “rookie wall” that many players face in a longer season.

There is too much luck involved in the short NFL season.
-Brian Burke

by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Oct 20, 2011 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions

I doubt he's hit the rookie wall yet... that's on the way.

And one thing I guess which could mitigate our thoughts of a young team growing as the year progresses. Nonetheless, I like Carp’s bigness and, like Muth said, at times he shows flashes of really beating the crap on a run-block. If that sort of thing keeps up, he’ll be a heck of a RT for a while to come.

"It's okay to have an open mind, just not so open that your brains fall out." - Carl Sagan (well, a lot of guys)

by Johnny Slick on Oct 20, 2011 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions

Yeah, it's way too early for the rookie wall

There is too much luck involved in the short NFL season.
-Brian Burke

by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Oct 20, 2011 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions

It's going to be horrible timing too

just as we get to the Super Bowl…

by Stay Off the Flowers on Oct 21, 2011 7:26 AM PDT up reply actions

High on Okung, too

Really, Muth’s had positive things to say about 4/5 of the Seahawks line. He’s praised Carpenter in the past, although some of the shine is coming off.

The one guy he really rips is McQuistan, who’s not supposed to be a starter, anyway. That’s a positive for this team. They may need to draft one more offensive lineman in the near future, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the group they’ve got now stays together for several years.

by robbbbbb on Oct 21, 2011 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions

I am loving the honest, 3rd party breakdown of the line

I have to believe that Gallery will be an upgrade over McQuistan and although Carpenter is not looking good out there, he is improving. It has been quite a journey since the preseason game in Denver.

by goatweed on Oct 20, 2011 8:33 AM PDT reply actions

This Muth thing is outstanding

I love the teams he picked to follow all year, that Tennessee is in there because that’s where he lives and that New Orleans is in there because he figured he’s probably better have a playoff team to cover.

Because of Muth, last week, pretty much all I watched for in every game was the punch of the offensive linemen and hoping for running plays so I could see the formations when somebody pulls.

by EthelGemerman on Oct 20, 2011 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions

It's hard to think Gallery wouldnt' be a big upgrade over McQuistan.

Honestly, I think Tyler Polumbus would be an upgrade over McQuistan but is only not being used there because PC is concerned that Russell Okung will have more knee issues and will need to be replaced himself.

"It's okay to have an open mind, just not so open that your brains fall out." - Carl Sagan (well, a lot of guys)

by Johnny Slick on Oct 20, 2011 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions

Muth is

A former Lineman who didn’t get his brains beaten out over his career.

He’s the brightest shiniest star on that site.

Carp may always have some sort of issue against speed rushers, but I’ll take him in the run blocking game any day of the week. Guy just dominates over smaller DE’s in the running plays.

Live work and breathe like an optimist.

by JRock419 on Oct 20, 2011 12:54 PM PDT reply actions

I don't blame Okung on his sack given up.

Osi had the perfect jump on that snap, i watched it frame by frame and his back leg started just before the snap moving his head in perfect synch with the ball. Only Walter Jones would have prevented that sack,

by SeahawkNMD on Oct 20, 2011 1:29 PM PDT reply actions

Osi got that jump in large part because Okung was slow getting off the line.

I thought that was bad, but Muth did explain that it was pretty clear that he didn’t hear the snap count. I’ll live with that, although so far he’s been more like the steady workman who never gets his name called than a guy like Walter Jones where you could just focus on him dismantling guys during games (I remember one play in particular where he pancaked two players – knocked the end playing against him over, then just ran down and did the same to a linebacker… I’m not even talking about staying with a play after the RB extended it, Jones took out two guys in the time it took I think Shaun Alexander to get into the space he clared out). It’s probably a lot to ask for Okung to be at the level of a future Hall of Famer, but I think the time is starting to come where he earns more lip service than not committing a false start or holding penalty.

"It's okay to have an open mind, just not so open that your brains fall out." - Carl Sagan (well, a lot of guys)

by Johnny Slick on Oct 20, 2011 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions

Linemen in general are the coolest players in football.

I think it has to do with their unsung-hero quality (out of all guys who could spend several years on a pro team, O-linemen are probably the most likely to actually need to use their college degrees when their playing careers are done), and also the fact that since the pro player to cohort ratio is relatively high (in order to even be considered to be a pro lineman, you’ve got to be 6’2" or taller and for the most part get up and over 300 pounds of mostly muscle) means that playing the position generally requires more craft and technique than athleticism. They’re a bit like situational left-handed pitchers in baseball or centers in football, both of which also attract oddballs and especially cool athletes (come on now, who doesn’t love Shaq?) due to that pro-to-cohort issue.

Speaking of which, what happened to Pete Kendall? He always struck me as a guy who could easily go into broadcasting after his playing career ended. I remember his Seahawks career ended poorly (he got into Erickson’s or Holmgren’s doghouse, don’t remember which) but he did end up having a long, long NFL career for a supposed malcontent. For that matter, Robbie Tobeck would probably as good a color guy as Warren Moon.

"It's okay to have an open mind, just not so open that your brains fall out." - Carl Sagan (well, a lot of guys)

by Johnny Slick on Oct 20, 2011 1:56 PM PDT reply actions

I love just about everything Muth writes.

by BrianL on Oct 21, 2011 9:09 AM PDT reply actions

Also, oof.

One final note on Carpenter: He is the absolute worst three-step drop cut blocker I have ever seen. I’m sure most of you have seen a play where the offensive tackle takes a quick pass set and then a tackle throws a cut block at the defensive end as he comes up field. Carpenter is horrendous at this. His success percentage of actually getting the guy on the ground is worse than Vernon Wells’ OBP.

by BrianL on Oct 21, 2011 9:11 AM PDT reply actions

Being compared to an old lady falling is almost never a good thing for a football player.

Almost never.

Head of catering.

by jacobstevens on Oct 21, 2011 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions

Good line, yeah

Carpenter sounds like the one guy on this team who could have desperately used the off-season workouts. The more he plays, the better he looks, but he has a lot of rough edges.

I wonder if he doesn’t end up getting moved inside to left guard, and the Seahawks work to find a new right tackle.

Moffit’s ascendance, on the other hand, has me pumped. Every time I notice the guy he’s doing something good. He had some terrific moves on the outside in the Giants game, lead blocking on screens.

by robbbbbb on Oct 21, 2011 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions

I can't tell what I'm more pleasantly surprised by, Unger or Moffitt.

Moffitt was a decent guard prospect, who figured to be well-coached, and to give good technique and effort. Unger had shown a lack of power that was quite disconcerting. Unger’s playing better of the two, but I maybe unrealistically had higher hopes in Moffitt than I did Unger.

Head of catering.

by jacobstevens on Oct 21, 2011 9:40 AM PDT up reply actions

Unger's playing lights out right now

I’ve heard praise from him from multiple sources. And he’s playing well enough now that you can’t even get Muth to make one of his patented Pac-10 cracks.

On the screen that Muth diagrams Unger makes a helluva play. Having a guy like that on your offensive line gives a team the chance to do things that other teams just can’t do. It’s exciting.

For all the crap that Ruskell’s gotten, he did draft us a few nice players. Unger, Mebane, Leroy Hill, Tatupu, etc. He knew how to find some good value in the middle rounds. However, the new regime looks to have the same ability to find mid-round talent (or better) coupled with the ability to nail top talent at the top end of the draft. (Hello, Russell Okung and Earl Thomas.)

by robbbbbb on Oct 21, 2011 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions

Bummer Unger probably won't play this Sunday.

I’m worried =(

Always up for some Twitter action @nandron. I only talk NW sports, though.

by Nick Andron on Oct 21, 2011 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions

Let's not count on that, yet

Looks like he practiced today.

Who’s his backup, anyway?

by robbbbbb on Oct 21, 2011 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions

JeanPierre, maybe?

There is too much luck involved in the short NFL season.
-Brian Burke

by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Oct 21, 2011 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions

*Jeanpierre

He’s the only guy listed as a C besides Unger on the roster:
http://www.seahawks.com/team/roster.html

There is too much luck involved in the short NFL season.
-Brian Burke

by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Oct 21, 2011 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions

Unger for me.

The last time we saw him he didn’t look bad because of lack of technique or whatnot, it was because he looked physically overmatched in the NFL.

by BrianL on Oct 21, 2011 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions

Carpenter got bull-rushed into oblivion by LBs several times during the preseason

I think it’s difficult to distinguish between “physical ability” and “technique” sometimes on the LoS.

There is too much luck involved in the short NFL season.
-Brian Burke

by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Oct 21, 2011 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions

He got bull rushed because he lost leverage in a big way.

by bewrong on Oct 21, 2011 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions

Yes, that was the point I was trying to make

It was an issue of technique, not power.

There is too much luck involved in the short NFL season.
-Brian Burke

by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Oct 21, 2011 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions

Well, it may still be a power issue with Unger.

Emphasis mine:

I thought Max Unger played a really good game. He was good in pass protection, but it was his run blocking that stood out to me. I mentioned in the last write-up of Seattle that Unger seemed to have the quickness to reach shaded nose guards on zone running plays. This skill is particularly useful if a team runs a lot of shotgun zones, like Seattle did against New York.
Not only was Unger consistently reaching the Giants’ defensive tackles, he was also generating a bit of vertical push as he was doing it. Usually when a center is directed to make this block, he’s asked to just keep the nose tackle at the line of scrimmage, and allowing a little penetration is even acceptable. Unger was quick enough off the ball to get his helmet towards the play side almost immediately, which allowed him to then focus on moving the defender up the field. You see, once the defender feels he’s reached (basically: he feels that the blocker has gotten his helmet to his play side shoulder) he begins to panic about losing gap control. As a result he starts focusing solely on moving laterally to try and get back outside into his gap. As he does that it becomes much easier to push him back, and that starts to create seams on the interior of the defense. Unger excelled in this all day.

This is exactly what we expected from Unger when he was drafted. Here’s John’s breakdown of Unger after he was drafted:

Unger is built long and his musculature is decidedly working man’s. He looks like a butcher or a blacksmith. He has good weight distribution and very good balance. Out of the blocks or on the move, Unger has great explosive power. He unloads and powers through his blocks showing good hip snap and hand placement. That allows him to get under and topple defenders. That power doesn’t translate to endurance matchups. Locked one on one, he can be steered, driven back and, sometimes, shed. Explosive power is paramount for a professional athlete, and Unger’s limitations sustaining blocks can be ameliorated with weight training and better conditioning. Unger looks like a hard worker, but he lacks the bulk and cut of a weight room warrior.

Footwork is Unger’s standout skill. He angles well off the snap and gets his best in-the-box blocks taking advantage of a lagging defender. He’s quick out of the blocks and wastes no movement in setup. When trap blocking, Unger shows adequate quickness staying well in front of runners or receivers, efficient lines to his proper spot, good positioning to execute the play and the footwork and technique to square the defender and engage on the move. Unger is also skilled at turning a defender when reaching blocking, and ambushing a defender with a well placed cut block. Unger’s power is his technique and his technique and footwork allow him to be explosively powerful and effectively dominant.

I don’t know that Unger is any less likely to get rag dolled at guard today than he was two years ago. I think he’s just being asked to do very different things as a center, and those things line up with the skills that made him a second round pick.

by Nate Dogg on Oct 21, 2011 7:20 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs