Draft Trade Value & What It Means For the Seahawks
If the NFL season ended today, the Seahawks would be drafting 8th overall. Before the season began I predicted the Seahawks would finish 6-10. Picking 8th seems about right. At times I felt they would pick higher and at times I have felt they would pick lower, but again, 8th seems about right to me. I can see them finishing the last 10 games of the season 4-6. Maybe 5-5.
If the NFL season ended today, the teams drafting ahead of Seattle would be (1) Indianapolis Colts (2) St. Louis Rams (3) Miami Dolphins (4) Minnesota Vikings (5) Arizona Cardinals (6) Jacksonville Jaguars (7) Carolina Panthers.
There have been Seahawks links to QB Matt Barkley because Pete Carroll recruited him to USC. Some draft experts feel that Barkley lacks elite talent and will never be more than an average NFL quarterback. Others go on record as saying that Barkley is not that far behind Andrew Luck.
Barkley's detractors say: he is not tall enough, he does not have a strong enough arm, he hasn't led a bunch of gutty fourth quarter comebacks, and that he depends too much on all world WR Robert Woods. If Matt Barkley stays in college, then of course all bets are off, but if he comes out, this article applies.
Barkley's proponents say he is polished, smart, accurate and possesses the leadership qualities you are looking for as the face of your franchise. Is he worth trading up for? I think he is, but there are limits. You make your own call with the data presented below.
There are national pundits that like Oklahoma QB Landry Jones better than Barkley. I would say that most services I read have Barkley #2 and Jones #3. There is a lot of criticism of Jones cracking under pressure and justified hate of the spread system.
The other two top QBs are Baylor's Robert Griffin III and Texas A&M's Ryan Tannehill. These two Big 12 prospects are considered talented but raw, with experts placing them anywhere from Round 1 to Round 4 (or lower).
THE SIDE OF A HALFPIPE
I used to skateboard as a kid. Have you ever looked at the side of a halfpipe? At the lip (the coping) the transition gets vertical or almost vertical. I was never great at statistics, but something akin to an exponential distribution is how I would describe the point value system of the NFL Draft.
Some call it the Jimmy Johnson Draft Value Chart. Some say it is out-dated. Some say it was marred by the previous CBA in the high dollars paid in Round 1. Some say it may be back in effect with the new CBA or perhaps it will be altered again with the new CBA. I am not sure.
I have another article coming out this week analyzing the Jimmy Johnson chart and the 2011 1st Round trade-ups for Blaine Gabbert and Julio Jones. The CBA was not finalized at the time- but the contracts paid to Blaine Gabbert and Julio Jones were modest compared to 2010. You can make your own judgement, but for the sake of this article, let's just assume that it holds.
As you can see from the chart, the first four picks have a 400 point value differential. I always wondered why Jim L Mora intimated on Softy that no one was willing to take the #4 pick in 2009 as they were looking to trade down. Yet, the Jets were happy to sweep in at the #5 to take Sanchez. It never made sense to me. Perhaps there is a reason.
The 400 point drop levels down to a 100 point drop from Pick 4 to Pick 5 (1800 for Pick 4 and 1700 for Pick 5 and this continues through Pick 8 at 1400 points). Once you hit Pick 9 the slope drops 50 points per pick until you reach pick 18. The rest of Round 1 drops down around 25 to 20 points per pick.
A skateboard ramp.
400 points is worth pick 50 (middle of Round 2). Da'Quan Bowers was pick 51 in 2011. 100 points is worth pick 100 (top of Round 4). KJ Wright was pick 99 in 2011. 50 points is worth pick 122 (bottom of Round 4). That territory is where the Delone Carters and Owen Marecic's are found. 25 points is worth an upper Round 6 pick. Think, Byron Maxwell territory.
What's the point? The point is that it is expensive to trade up into the top 4 picks. It will cost your 4x more to move up one rung on the ladder in Picks 1-4 versus Picks 5-8. This may all be relevant to the Seahawks. Trust me.
TEAM BY TEAM
I want to go team by team down the list of 7 franchises currently ahead of Seattle and flush out reasons why they would not trade down with Seattle, why they would trade with Seattle, and what the possible costs would be to Seattle in terms of draft picks.
Indianopolis
If they finish with the #1 pick there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth around the country. In this scenario they would draft Andrew Luck and then trade Peyton Manning if Peyton is healthy. Andrew is over 10 years younger and far cheaper. Consider this, Cam Newton was "only" paid $22M over 4 years. Peyton is paid over $22M in one year. They would trade Peyton Manning- pray that he passes his physical and turn the page with some extra draft picks. The rest of the NFL would curse them.
If they did not have the #1 pick because of winning games or strength of schedule I believe they would draft Matt Barkley or Landry Jones if Peyton Manning is not healthy enough to return. I do not think they would trade down as a legitimate quarterback is worth about 9-10 wins on that particular team. That is amazing but true.
If Peyton can come back, this would be a team, if drafting 2nd overall, that would trade down in my opinion. Why? They drafted two tackles in 2011- Anthony Castonzo and Ben Ijalana. Are they going to draft another tackle on a team full of holes? Are they going to draft Ryan Kalil or Johnathan Martin? I don't think so.
I am not sure if they draft a defensive end- even though Mathis and Freeney are getting older. In the Top 8 or so picks- the premium three positions to draft are: QB, left tackle and defensive end/impact defensive tackle. There is no defensive tackle worthy to be drafted in the top 8. There is perhaps one defensive end worthy of being drafted in the top 8.
Things will change before draft day- but let me finish Indianopolis by saying that I think if Peyton is healthy and they are drafting #2 or #3 they would trade down in Round 1 to gain more picks as the team needs to fill holes all over the roster.
The cost to trade from #8 to #2 would likely be a 2011 1st Rd Pick and a 2012 1st Rd Pick- and that is just for starters. (Pick #2 is worth 2600 points and pick #8 is only worth 1400 points- the 1200 point gap is equivalent to the #12 pick overall). Ouch.
St. Louis
St. Louis will likely not want to trade with Seattle, especially by handing them a franchise quarterback as a division rival. St. Louis is also a team that has drafted two tackles high in the draft recently- Jason Smith as the #2 overall pick in 2009 and Roger Saffold as the #33 overall pick in 2010. They drafted DE Robert Quinn in Round 1 in 2011 and another DE- Chris Long #2 overall in 2008. They, of course, drafted QB Sam Bradford #1 overall in 2010. Now you say, 'but Davis- none of these players are very good.' I am not saying they are good or not, but I am saying arguably that STL does not need a Tackle, Quarterback or a Defensive End.
They need several good cornerbacks and wide receivers in my opinion. There are some good corners and receivers worthy of being selected in Round 1. None of them are locks to go in the first 7 slots. STL is a team that should trade down in my opinion and receive an extra 2nd round pick in 2012 or an extra 1st round pick in 2013 and load up corners and wideouts or any other position they so desire.
They would prefer to do this with any team but Seattle- but if Seattle is offering them extra high draft picks and is the only team doing so, they will consider it. They need more talent. In terms of trade costs, it would be similar to the Indianopolis scenario.
Miami
Miami used to have a good running game and a good defense. What happened? 2011 has been a disaster. After replacing Tony Sparano, the new coaching regime is going to want to draft a QB. If Miami drafts #1 overall they will take Andrew Luck. No more fooling around in Round 2 (see Chad Henne, Pat White and John Beck).
My philosophy is that if a QB is not worthy of being drafted in Round 1 as a franchise quarterback- then he is not worthy of being drafted as a starter at all. Draft him late as a backup. The only good QB in the last 12 years drafted in Round 2 is Drew Brees. There have been a little more than a dozen or so other QBs drafted in Round 2 in the last 12 years, and they all end up being Kevin Kolb or Tarvaris Jackson or worse.
If Miami drafts #2 overall I think they draft Matt Barkley. I see almost no chance that Miami is a trade partner with Seattle. The only possible slim scenario I could see is if they think Landry Jones or some other quarterback is as good or better than Barkley. In that case they may think about it. It would still be risky. I think too risky because if they moved down to #8 to take for example, Landry Jones, another team may sneak into picks 4-7 and take their QB. They would be left with more picks but possibly missing their targeted trigger-man and holding the proverbial bag.
Minnesota
Ah. Here is a trade partner. They drafted QB Christian Ponder #12 overall in 2011. They have holes on their team. They need corners, wideouts and a left tackle. This is a team that does not need a QB, and if they were sitting at Pick 2 or 3- trading down to Pick 8 might be ideal. They may still get the #2 left tackle on the board at #8 and get an extra 2nd round pick in 2012 or extra 1st round pick in 2013. Minnesota would not have the "never trade inside your division" concern that St. Louis would have.
Seahawks fans hoping for a trade partner should pray for Minnesota to lose and leap ahead of Miami or Indianopolis. They play in a tough division. It could happen.
Arizona, Jacksonville and Carolina
Jacksonville just drafted Blaine Gabbert and Carolina has Cam Newton. These teams, if they are drafting ahead of Seattle won't want Matt Barkley. I don't think they are viable trade partners because Seattle will know that they are going to draft another position and pose no real threat. Seattle will likely just stay put unless a team below Seattle is seeking to trade up- in that scenario perhaps Seattle would move up to protect it's position. Jacksonville or Carolina may prefer Seattle as a trade partner because they could pick up an extra 4th round pick for essentially nothing and not fall down on the board.
Arizona, Arizona. Drafting 5th last year and drafting 5th again in 2012? They signed Kevin Kolb to a big contract. Yet the team is not better. Perhaps they could be a trade partner, even though a division rival, I think Arizona has several holes. They need outside and inside linebackers as well as help at left tackle. Some say they need a new QB, but I think they have to stick with Kolb with all that guaranteed money. If Arizona moves up to #2 or #3- as distasteful as it may be to trade with a division rival, it's a team that needs extra draft picks and if Seattle is the only one offering them a trade, again, they have to consider it.
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My thought on the trade value table
is that it becomes more applicable near the top of the draft than it has been for a very long time. It was prepared before the huge run-up in rookie salaries, and was ostensibly based on a handful of top-heavy drafts like this one. In recent years, you couldn’t give away high picks — Detroit shopped around the #1 in 2009 (Stafford) and found no takers because of the financial commitment. Now we’re back in action.
Of course, any talk of the #1 pick is is likely to be academic because the #1 in 2012 will almost certainly not be traded. If Minnesota gets the pick? Fine, they have a shiny almost-new Christian Ponder they’ll be happy to discuss with you. Same goes for Jacksonville or any of those other teams with supposed QBsOTF. The only team I could possibly see willing to trade the pick is St. Louis, and as you say they won’t be trading it to the Seahawks.
by Suburban Shocker on Oct 27, 2011 8:10 AM PDT reply actions
About Minnesotta as a trade partner.
Sure i guess they would take Luck, but if they get the second pick, trading with them for Barkley could be possible.
I think Carolina would probably stay with Cam Newton at this point.
I could also see Minnesota trading if Ponder continues to play well. It depends on what the other teams are offering, though, I suppose.
by splintrdmind on Oct 27, 2011 7:19 PM PDT up reply actions
What a beautiful reminder that no matter how good someone might have thought Kevin Kolb was, it was the amount that they gave up that made it acceptable for a Hawks fan.
They’re absolutely stuck with him unless they pick first.
follow @casetines
I don't understand why the Colts are above STL and MIA
They have the toughest strength of schedule, and MIA has the softest, therefore MIA should be picking first.
Always up for some Twitter action @nandron. I only talk NW sports, though.
I think he's going off Hmph's fanposts
And Hmph extrapolates SoS for 16 games by looking at the entire schedule, not just games so far.
Formerly knows as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Oct 27, 2011 8:24 AM PDT up reply actions
Of course there's a reason
As you can see from the chart, the first four picks have a 400 point value differential. I always wondered why Jim L Mora intimated on Softy that no one was willing to take the #4 pick in 2009 as they were looking to trade down. Yet, the Jets were happy to sweep in at the #5 to take Sanchez. It never made sense to me. Perhaps there is a reason.
The Jets felt like we were pretty much guaranteed not to take a QB, knowing Ruskell’s draft proclivities which made Sanchez not an option even if we weren’t still depending on the Beck, so they could more cheaply jump to #5 than to #4 needlessly. You always target the spot right before you’re afraid your guy is gone. And then negotiations depend not just on how far you jump, but also on how desperate you are to target that one player. That’s why one “chart” that covers every trade situation just doesn’t really stick.
Formerly knows as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
The other part of the trade was the role players the Jets threw into the deal
Like many other coaches, Mangini valued “his guys” more than the league would. The players the Jets traded to Cleveland would have been useless to us but likely were very valuable to them.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Oct 27, 2011 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions
If the Colts pick #1 overall and take Andrew Luck (with the intention of keeping him)
The Seahawks are pretty much SOL. Miami will for sure take Barkley, and there won’t likely be any round 1 caliber QBs to take.
Bright side? Seahawks can draft an elite-level DE or Cornerback.
But it’ll push the QB search back another year. Ugh.
Always up for some Twitter action @nandron. I only talk NW sports, though.
Still a lot of time left too, not that I disagree as of today.
follow @casetines
by Kenneth Arthur on Oct 27, 2011 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions
No other option but to root for the Colts now...
If Miami continues to lose and drafts #1, Barkley won’t be a shoe-in for any of teams before us.
Other than the Seahawks, the Dolphins are the only other team we want to nab Luck. That way, getting Barkley is much easier to do.
Ka-Kaaa!
I agree with this
I don’t think Indy takes a QB unless it is Luck.
I agree... basically Luck is so good they can't pass him up
But otherwise they’re more than happy with Manning and building up another lower tier QB under him in hopes of striking gold
I Bleed Blue and Green
ME...Tweeting Stuff! About my upcoming game...and other random musings.
That depends on Manning's health though.
It’s very possible he never plays again. Indy is putting on an optimistic front; but you don’t mess around with neck injuries. If Manning is done for, they’ll take the best QB they can get, in my opinion.
Agreed
from what I’m seeing here in Indiana.
Thing is, though, I wouldn’t assume the Colts lose out — ending up with the #1 pick would be the best thing for the franchise, but I’m betting it would cost Jim Caldwell his job, so I’m sure he’s going to pull everything he can to try to win. Indeed, he has to, because if he didn’t, it would undermine the team’s efforts to convince the fanbase that Manning will be OK.
by The Ancient Mariner on Oct 27, 2011 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Seahawks Draft Blog has noted Seahawks scouting Austin Davis
Is the logical conclusion is that the FO accepts there are other options than Luck & Barkley, and will be happy with some of them?
Any FO worth its salt sends out scouts for more than just the top prospects
Even if you really don’t feel good about them, you never know how the draft rolls, and you need notes on as many players as you can get.
Formerly knows as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Oct 27, 2011 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions
And we also know Petey loves competition
Draft 7 QB’s this year and let them fight it out amongst them
No way we can loose at that point
I Bleed Blue and Green
ME...Tweeting Stuff! About my upcoming game...and other random musings.
It’s a deep QB field. Odds are that at least one other QB besides the top two will make it in the pros.
by AlaskaHawk on Oct 27, 2011 9:11 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
Need for a top QB
Seems to me that Hawks have to take the best QB available to them during the draft. I don’t know how long a leash Pete will have if year three looks similar to years 1 and 2. I was happy we passed on Dalton, but at some point you have to take whats available and trust your coaching to overcome whatever faults that player might have. We can sit and wait for a Manning or Luck every year but that isn’t realistic. The reality is we might not get our first or second choice of QB’s but we have to come to grips with that and take whats available and make the most of it.
What I don't understand
Speculating that Luck and Barkley are not available and thinking that means you don’t draft a QB at a particular spot based on perceived perception of that QB not being worth the spot.
If the need is apparent, then you have to go get a guy who can step into the position. Personally I would much rather the hawks not get Luck or Barkley and pick up RG3, even if his first year in the NFL is an adjustment period. Even if that means spending a draft pick a “too high” for his perceived value in the draft. Because the value I am thinking about, the one that matters overall, is the value to the team.
Don’t get me wrong, I wouldn’t kick either Barkley or Luck out of bed (so to speak), and if there was a real opportunity to hemorrhage draft picks/players in a trade up to get him, I cold totally recognize the value of doing so.
But I also would understand “over spending” on a pick for a QB for nearly the same reasons.
I think "worth the spot" is no longer relevant
The rookie pay scale has obliterated that thought and you can take a QB, even if it’s a lower tiered one earlier than most expect…. you dont have the same financial risks and it solidified you have “you guy” or at least a guy who can hopefully become that. This pay scale really opens the door to a lot more possibilities and removes that whole notion in my opinion.
QB is the most important player and if you need one and like one, you’ll take him no matter what… and now it doesnt matter cause you aren’t going to be stuck in the hole financially.
this opinion only really applies to QB’s btw…. theres obviously less value on other positions and being drafted too soon if other talent is availible.
I Bleed Blue and Green
ME...Tweeting Stuff! About my upcoming game...and other random musings.
I agree
Not that I don’t hope in the draft there isn’t calculated risk taking to move up or down if necessary, but go get the guys you really need/want, regardless of the position in the draft.
Hear Hear
I’m just happy Pete and John are aggressive guys…. Seahawks and Seattle sports in general have always been so passive aggressive and “calculated” and cautious to a fault. Never did what it took to get their guys and make the moves necessary to really turn the team around and eventually burying themselves. I don’t feel that with P & J and they wont be so reserved and tenative to make those moves…. been an ugly couple years but at least I think they’ve given the team the shot in the arm they’ve needed and will keep on moving in the right direction.
As long as we get that damn QB that is
I Bleed Blue and Green
ME...Tweeting Stuff! About my upcoming game...and other random musings.
i'd be fine with barkley:
but id rather take luck obviously. It’d be awesome if we could get a first rd’er for a pick and player and try to get trent richardson…. guy would be a beast.
Here's still hoping
We get Price in 2013 or 2014.
It’s a long time to be without the QBOTF, but I think his abilities will be beyond Barkley’s (if still not on par with Luck, admittedly) by the time he’s got a few seasons as a starter at the UW under his belt.
When the going gets tough, move your team to Oklahoma City (apparently).
by CantHaveNiceThings on Oct 27, 2011 12:16 PM PDT reply actions
Yeah, no thanks
I understand a lot of you guys are UW/WSU fans, but let’s not let it color common sense to that extent. We’re not waiting for Price. We shouldn’t. There’s no reason to.
Formerly knows as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Oct 27, 2011 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Fair enough.
Then again, I never figured anyone would ‘wait’ for price – I simply figured that the Hawks, in their true fashion, would likely win enough games to ‘screw the pooch’ as far as our hopes to get the Face of the Franchise QB in the upcoming draft.
While I don’t think we should disregard the idea of drafting another QB this year or next just to bank on Price, at the same time I don’t think we should be disregarding our options if JS/PC don’t like what they see in whatever QBs remain in this years draft by the time we get our pick.
When the going gets tough, move your team to Oklahoma City (apparently).
by CantHaveNiceThings on Oct 27, 2011 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Price has the potential to be reaaallllll good
that’s for sure
I Bleed Blue and Green
ME...Tweeting Stuff! About my upcoming game...and other random musings.
So it's looking like the Seahawks will have to reach on a QB if they want one in the first.
Considering the wealth of money and picks we’ve thrown at the offense, I might actually be OK with drafting a QB in round two. It looks like there will be a few second-tier QB’s available, and if the offense comes together this year I can actually see throwing a second-round pick to the wolves in his first year.
At some point closer to the draft, it will be interesting to see how QB need shakes out at the start of the SECOND round. Assuming that we’re at the high end of that round, we could easily move up and around to grab someone who’s fallen lower than expected (i.e. a Jones, or Griffin III, or whatever).
And yes, I fully understand the importance of drafting a QB early. I’m just not that sold on Barkley, and no one else seems to be a good choice at where we’re going to pick (eight-ish).
Per Seahawks Draft Blog: Robert Griffin has smarts, charactor and constant
improvement. Some fixable footwork aside, he looks like he might be a good bet
to be a good NFL QB.
So it just may be that all is not Luck/Barkley, or bust.
by broadbill birdwatcher on Oct 27, 2011 1:13 PM PDT reply actions
I've become pretty intrigued by RG3, definitely.
Head of catering.
by jacobstevens on Oct 27, 2011 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions
"Power Law" distribution
This is where you were going with the half-pipe thing. :)
"The time has come," the Walrus said, "to talk of many things."
Thanks for this, Davis.
Bookmarked.
I've got ridiculous upside.
-
Got me a Twitter. Follow me, won't you?
The 2nd best QB in the draft is
WI QB Russell Wilson.
by clutterheart on Oct 27, 2011 4:17 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Thanks for the laugh :)
by Matt Erickson on Oct 27, 2011 6:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Trade for Peyton.
Problems solved.
I am convinced that Seattle sports teams exist to make me hate Seattle sports teams.
Yeah, I'm not sure they'd want him.
Not mobile.
Well he would have to fight for his spot.
I am convinced that Seattle sports teams exist to make me hate Seattle sports teams.
by the other side on Oct 27, 2011 10:25 PM PDT up reply actions


































