About These Seahawk Penalties
by Danny Kelly on Nov 14, 2011 11:46 AM PST
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There's obviously going to be a lot to like when the Seahawks beat the previously 6-2, AFC elite (according to some) Ravens at home but there's also some things that are concerning, most visibly the Seahawks penchant for racking up ridiculous amounts of penalties. 83 penalties thus far this season in 9 games, for an average of 9.2 per game. Yeesh. This lack of discipline, stupidity, bad luck, bad officiating, and whatever else you want to blame it on, has been an issue for the Seahawks. This has drawn some criticism upon Pete Carroll and company for the coaching staff's ability, or lack of ability, to stop the problem, or even curtail it, as the Hawks went out on Sunday and got penalized 13 times, the most in a game since 2002.
Let's take a look at them, in order, and try and make sense of what the hell they're doing out there.
First Quarter:
1-10-SEA 28 (3:33) T.Jackson pass short middle to L.Washington to SEA 30 for 2 yards (J.McClain).
PENALTY on SEA-J.Carpenter, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced at SEA 28 - No Play.
Rewatched this play. Yep, that's a holding on Carpenter; he was beat with a nice swim move and Carp just held on for dear life so as to avoid letting Tarvaris Jackson get sacked. This one is on the rookie right tackle.
1-10-SEA 39 (1:22) M.Lynch left tackle to SEA 43 for 4 yards (C.Redding).
PENALTY on SEA-M.Williams, Unsportsmanlike Conduct, 15 yards, enforced at SEA 43.
This is the play where Mike Williams gets shoved right in front of the referee, the referee comes to calm things down, and Mike Williams shoves the guy back. Mike Williams gets a flag. I know they say that it's always the 2nd guy that gets caught, but the ref saw both of these shoves and decided BMW deserved a flag of the two. I'm not sure how you make that determination; maybe Williams' shove looked harder. Annoying on the part of the ref, but more annoying on the part of Mike Williams.
3-16-SEA 33 (15:00) (Shotgun) PENALTY on SEA-J.Carpenter, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at SEA 33 - No Play.
Drink.
3-7-BLT 37 (13:37) (Shotgun) J.Flacco pass short middle to E.Dickson to SEA 48 for 15 yards (E.Thomas). P4
Penalty on SEA-T.Hargrove, Defensive Offside, declined.
The first in what would be many, many defensive offsides calls on Seahawks' veterans in this game.
3-1-SEA 39 (12:02) (No Huddle) J.Flacco pass incomplete short left to A.Boldin.
PENALTY on SEA-B.Browner, Defensive Pass Interference, 5 yards, enforced at SEA 39 - No Play.
I thought this was a close play that could have been called or not called. Pete Carroll went on record this morning on Brock and Salk saying he didn't think it was a penalty and would take that play every day of the week. I tend to agree. Nothing Browner did was egregiously PI - or maybe I should say nothing he did is abnormal from what happens on 99% of pass plays between receiver and corner, but the ref wasn't giving some first year player that leads the league in penalties the benefit of the doubt. Either way, not a huge deal.
Second Quarter:
2-7-SEA 27 (8:17) (Shotgun) PENALTY on SEA-T.Jackson, Delay of Game, 5 yards, enforced at SEA 27 - No Play.
Head scratcher here. Jackson false started too, but either way, minus five yards.
1-10-BLT 20 (:46) (Shotgun) R.Rice up the middle to BLT 31 for 11 yards (L.Hill). R9
Penalty on SEA-C.Clemons, Defensive Offside, declined.
Jumped too soon. Again.
Third Quarter:
2-10-BLT 20 (14:55) (Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete short right to A.Boldin (L.Hill).
PENALTY on SEA-R.Brock, Defensive Offside, 5 yards, enforced at BLT 20 - No Play.
A veteran jumped offsides. Again. Stop it, seriously.
Fourth Quarter:
1-10-BLT 24 (12:35) (Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete deep right to T.Smith (R.Sherman).
PENALTY on SEA-R.Brock, Defensive Offside, 5 yards, enforced at BLT 24 - No Play.
A veteran jumped offsides. Again. Stop it, seriously. I mean it this time. Camera zooms in on Gus Bradley looking incredulous.
1-5-BLT 29 (12:29) (Shotgun) J.Flacco pass short left to A.Boldin pushed ob at BLT 31 for 2 yards (R.Lewis).
PENALTY on SEA-C.McDonald, Illegal Use of Hands, 5 yards, enforced at BLT 29 - No Play.
Yeah, I dunno. During a bullrush, Clint got his fist up into the guard's facemask. Illegal obviously, but these things happen quickly in the trenches. Too bad he got caught for it.
4-5-BLT 40 (7:52) (Shotgun) J.Flacco scrambles up the middle to BLT 46 for 6 yards (K.Chancellor; E.Thomas). R20
Penalty on SEA-R.Lewis, Defensive Holding, declined.
Lewis had such a rough, rough day.
3-10-BLT 46 (7:20) (Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete short right to A.Boldin [D.Hawthorne].
PENALTY on SEA-R.Lewis, Illegal Contact, 5 yards, enforced at BLT 46 - No Play.
Ugh. Seriously.
1-10-SEA 36 (6:45) (No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete deep left to A.Boldin [M.Smith]. SEA-K.Chancellor was injured during the play. He is Out. PENALTY on SEA-K.Chancellor, Unnecessary Roughness, 15 yards, enforced at SEA 36 - No Play.
Helmet to helmet. Good call, but also a huge hit by Chancellor. Knocked himself silly.
1-10-SEA 11 (5:57) (No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass short middle to E.Dickson for 11 yards, TOUCHDOWN. P25
B.Cundiff extra point is GOOD, Center-M.Cox, Holder-S.Koch.
PENALTY on SEA-C.McDonald, Unsportsmanlike Conduct, 15 yards, enforced between downs.
Clint getting a little chippy, and gets called for almost the exact same thing he was called for earlier - but this time manages to rip Michael Oher's helmet off. Pretty dumb, really. In the end, this penalty didn't really make a difference. The Ravens just kicked the ball out of the back of the endzone.
1-10-SEA 20 (5:52) PENALTY on SEA-R.Okung, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at SEA 20 - No Play.
Good false start called by the Ravens here. Honestly, Okung DID false start, but the flag was only thrown after about five seconds of pleading by the Ravens' defense. This kind of thing really annoys me.
Here's how Pete Carroll felt about the Seahawks' 12th enforced penalty of the game:
1-15-SEA 15 (5:52) T.Jackson pass incomplete short right to G.Tate (B.Pollard).
PENALTY on SEA-G.Tate, Illegal Motion, 5 yards, enforced at SEA 15 - No Play.
This was a weird penalty. Tate lined up on the line, then tried to back up but it was too late I guess as the ball was snapped, and they called him 'never set'. Third straight penalty. Awesome, guys.
Here's Pete Carroll after the Seahawks third straight penalty, seventh of the quarter, and 13th overall:
("You've got to be f*cking kidding me, right?")
Ok, so - 15 penalties, 13 enforced. To sum up - one holding penalty by a 22-year old rookie. Eh, whatever. One delay of game by your QB, one illegal motion by Tate, one defensive pass interference by Browner, one illegal hands to the face by McDeezy and one unnecessary roughness penalty by Kam. I can live with all of those, because they'll happen in any normal game. I'm not sure if "coaching" really eliminates those types of things, other than maybe Tate's miscue.
Two false starts by your starting tackles. Annoying. Four offsides penalties by Anthony Hargrove and Raheem Brock. Really guys?
One defensive holding and one illegal contact penalty against Roy Lewis in the fourth quarter. Facepalm.
One unsportsmanlike conduct penalty each against Mike Williams and Clinton McDonald. Unacceptable, as far as I'm concerned. Nothing annoys me more than guys getting 15-yarders for trying to be tough. Grow up.
Here's the question, or several questions: Can coaching eliminate these penalties or is it a result of youth? Is this an indictment on Pete Carroll and his staff or just a bunch of stupid plays by young players?
Obviously, the quad offsides penalties by Brock, Clemons and Hargrove were committed by veterans so you can't play the youth card there. Can you play the "coach em up" card though, or does the buck stop at players making plays at some point?
"Hey guys, wait until the ball is snapped before you start running at the quarterback." "Okay, thanks coach. Will do."
I jest, but what do you do here to tighten things up? Bench those players?
Furthermore, are these penalties meaningful? Is there a correlation between highly penalized teams and losing teams? Dave Wyman wrote a pretty interesting article the other day that pointed to the idea that these penalties, though annoying, aren't really worth fretting over too much. Per Wyman,
"Here's a statistic (in reference to penalties) that is entirely meaningless over the past five years but comforting to young teams who are prone to mistakes (and Raiders fans). Believe it or not, highly penalized teams can still be successful. In 2009, three of the five most penalized teams went 11-5 (Dallas, Green Bay and Philadelphia), and the 2008 Titans had the 4th most penalties in the league and went 13-3.
Collectively (in the past five seasons) the five most penalized teams went 42-38 and the five least penalized teams went 44-36."
Food for thought, anyway. I'm in the camp that, though annoyed with the sheer amount of penalties the Seahawks have accrued this season, I am not particularly worried about the trend. Chalk some of them up to youth. Chalk some of them up to veteran mistakes. Chalk some of them up to bad luck or poor officiating. Chalk some of them up to the coaching staff and some to the players.
The obvious question becomes 'how do we limit these penalties?' and I don't really have an answer for that. Do you?
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Given that 5 offsides in this game came on Hargrove, Brock, and Clemons
I call complete BS that it’s entirely on youth.
They aren’t disciplined and it’s damning of the staff.
The goodness is I don’t really expect Hargrove and Brock to be on this team much longer so that helps things out.
I respect your opinion even though it's wrong.
Well, it's damning per se
but it’s certainly something that should be brought into the focal point. They need to emphasize penalties in practice from now on. Hell, maybe even hold penalty days, where you do nothing but work on cleaning up your game.
Heresy grows from idleness.
by Corax --Nevermore-- on Nov 14, 2011 12:10 PM PST up reply actions
*Well it's not damning per se
Heresy grows from idleness.
by Corax --Nevermore-- on Nov 14, 2011 12:10 PM PST up reply actions
Even if you take out the 50/50 penalties
Such as the illegal contact, the PI, the person foul on Williams, there’s still way way too many penalties. On the delay of game, Jackson was at the line with 15 seconds on the play clock.
I think the “good” news, is that the penalties are such a grab bag that you have to imagine that general discipline is a contributing factor, and that’s something you can improve on. I think Carroll has to delegate a little ass-kicking to his position coaches to get their respective units’ heads in the game.
The worst part about it is
that they’re the most consistent part of our game. It’s not the run game yet, it was never going to be TJack, but it IS penalties. Shudder.
Heresy grows from idleness.
by Corax --Nevermore-- on Nov 14, 2011 12:16 PM PST up reply actions
But the BEST part
Is that even with the inconsistent play and the penalties, Carpenter is still an improvement over Locklear.
It's funny because in the Cleveland game, I was watching at the NYC bar with the usual suspects
And at one point the official calls a penalty on Cleveland, but instead of saying “offense” or “defense” he actually says “Cleveland.” Except he says it with this distinctly questioning tone in his voice so it comes out “Cleveland?”
The whole bar started laughing at the fact that even the officials were surprised the flag wasn’t on the Hawks.
Haha, priceless
Heresy grows from idleness.
by Corax --Nevermore-- on Nov 14, 2011 12:26 PM PST up reply actions
Nice to see the breakdown...
I think many of the penalties come out of frustration, especially the DL guys not being able to make a play on Flacco. It’s not like the veterans Brock and Clemons don’t know how to play disciplined, or that the coaching staff doesn’t stress it (seriously at this point in the season you don’t think it’s something worked on in practice and talked about in meetings?). Those penalties are completely on the players in my opinion.
I’ll give Carp the holding to save Tarv a big hit, and if as a whole our OL has 2 or fewer offsides a game, I will be happy.
The Kam personal foul was a terrible play by Chancellor. That has been called all season and it could have been called 3 different ways: helmet to helmet, defenseless receiver, and launching oneself. Kam is a veteran at this point, and needs to be a smarter player.
What is best about all the penalties we had in this game is that the team still played well enough to win. I think that is a huge positive.
Smashmouth is the new sexy!
Thanks.
I think you’re right on with your points. I don’t know at what point we just start saying that players need to stop making stupid plays. I know that the coaching staff has some culpability, but not when your vets are making 4 needless offsides penalties.
With the speed of the game and the variety of the penalties its tough to assign blame. I just hope it improves, drastically, soon.
by Danny Kelly on Nov 14, 2011 12:28 PM PST up reply actions
You can't tell the defensive line to sack the QB
and not expect them to try to time the snap. Sometimes they just mistime it. Other times they got a quick start and it might have been legal but it was just so fast that the refs called it.
It also seemed like the Ravens have more movement in the offensive line than I usually see. Maybe the defensive linemen are seeing something that the refs don’t. Like the center flexing his hands or shoulder.
So it is way over the top for anyone in this crowd to be blaming the defensive line. If they don’t have a few offsides then they weren’t doing their jobs. Which is to charge the QB as quickly as possible. Quit being a bunch of back seat whiners!
It seemed to me that center for Ravens was pretty "active" on the line
Which doesn’t surprise me because of who the coach is… Seems to be a little bit of this pushing the envolepe In San Fran as well.
With all the talent and the tools that the front office has given John, they should be a way better team. I know everyone is up and down on Flacco but I think the real weak link is the HC.
by Redzone59 on Nov 14, 2011 1:42 PM PST via mobile reply actions
The RG was very active too
At least three times in the game I saw him sort of “re-set” himself before the snap. By the second time, we were all watching for it in the bar, and by the third time everyone had seen it. It sure looked like a false start to me, but it was also worth observing that he did it at least three times and seemed very deliberate about it, so maybe I don’t exactly understand how the false start and illegal motion penalties work.
Birk's Got A Funny Stance
Maybe they let him get away with it more because it’s so “unconventional”.
He shifts to this stance sometimes during play also, which I also can’t figure out how he does that.
He’s a crafty guy.
Live work and breathe like an optimist.
Also, they were working a silent count, with the RG tapping Birk when Flacco was ready
I think the Hawks picked up on this and were trying to anticipate the snap. Sometimes a center can fall into a rhythm with the silent count, and defensive linemen can try to pick that out. They just guessed wrong a few times.
by Matt Erickson on Nov 14, 2011 2:50 PM PST up reply actions
Thats called a Kimchi squat
You either know what I am talking about and are laughing, or you don’t.
they took turns pissing into the bitch's ocular cavities.
This way to the cafeteria!
The penalties may well reflect a lack of discipline. And it may flow from the coaching staff.
This is Pete Carroll we’re talking about, not Mike Holmgren. It’s a hugely different style of football. Holmgren’s teams were typically among the least penalized. I suspect Carroll’s teams will generally be more penalized than average. So personally, I’m trying to get used to it, and hoping that it will get marginally better as the team gets a bit smarter and as the refs get a bit more used to seeing physical football from the Seahawks. You think Revis would get the PI call on Boldin that Browner did? No way. And do you think Hines Ward gets the UC call that Williams got? Probably not. Reputation matters, and as this team builds its reputation, we’ll see fewer penalties called. Unless Kam keeps playing like he is, and then we’ll start getting the Harrison-type penalties with big fines attached.
by Highwatermark on Nov 14, 2011 1:51 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
CB play and refs
Both teams played physical. I was hollering at the screen when Ravens secondary was all over Baldwin (?) in the end zone. The refs let both sides play tight and physical.
Something I don't understand
When one offensive linemen moves it’s a false start. But when the QB runs around and changes plays and the whole line is moving and looking back at the QB, that’s legal. If I were a defensive linemen I would have jumped at the first twitch.
by AlaskaHawk on Nov 14, 2011 1:52 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
They're not simulating the start of the play, I think.
"There's an old saying - revenge is a dish best served immediately."
yah i think its when they go into
set mode or something. I notice that too, but i believe when they make an adjustment, they can move around and what not till the QB sets. if that makes sense.
by Bruiser89171 on Nov 14, 2011 8:43 PM PST up reply actions
My two cents
On Clemons’ offside penalty, I legitimately think he just timed the snap that well. Watching it in game speed without a replay, I actually commented out loud, “My god he timed that snap perfectly — they’re gonna call him offsides, I just know it.” And sure enough, a flag. Several plays before that, I saw Clem blow off the line incredibly fast, and I expected a flag, but none were thrown. McKinnie was on his heels the whole way, holding the shit out of our boy, and that wasn’t called either.
I remember a game recap JM did last year (and I found it!) where he remarked on what it took to be an elite LT or DE, accompanied by this picture:
Technically that’s either a false start or an offsides, but it happens so fast, and they’ve timed the snap so perfectly that it isn’t called. I’ve seen the same thing happen with Clem, and I think the fact that there were three other offsides penalties just makes it stand out more and irritate us. I’ll take the occasional offsides when a guy is anticipating the snap like that.
On another note, that illegal contact penalty on Lewis was complete and utter bullshit. The defensive back has just as much of a right to his position as the receiver, and Boldin can’t just steamroll Lewis because he’s standing where he was trying to run. It’d’ve been one thing if Lewis stepped into his route and checked him, but he was watching Flacco’s eyes the whole time, and was startled at the last second that Boldin was bearing down on him and wasn’t stopping. Savvy, cheap, veteran move by Anquan.
by Matt Erickson on Nov 14, 2011 2:49 PM PST reply actions 4 recs
Thought the same thing about Lewis
when I saw it… He got steamrolled, but gets penalized… glad to know I wasn’t the only one to catch that.
Procrastination is the Art of Keeping Up with Yesterday.
by Ryche And Roll on Nov 15, 2011 8:20 AM PST up reply actions
The most frustrating to me are the Unsportsmanlike Conduct Penalties
There is just no excuse for those. Guys, especially young guys, trying to make football plays, I’m usually okay with that. But personal fouls for after the whistle nonsense are killers
One of those Brock penalties is actually a Branch
They called the first (I think) Brock penalty on him…and he was completely still….while Branch (who was lined up next to him) decided to run 3 yard sprints in the middle of a QB cadence
I Bleed Blue and Green
ME...Tweeting Stuff! About my upcoming game...and other random musings.
by DSAhawker on Nov 14, 2011 3:18 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
I dont know if this has been
mentioned, but I wonder if the Refs are keying on Browner alot due to his Physical play
I know he hasnt been called for one as regularly as he did in the first part of the season but just a thought.
like the year the Sonics had Danny Fortson and he was almost too physical and thats when they started calling him on everything.
I love Browner and Sherman and how they play, so far this season, from what I’ve seen from Sherman he is definately a steal for us, in the 3 games hes started, he has played well 10 Tkls 1 int 1 FF 6 PD.
I know the Browner and Sherman love dont have much to do with the penalties, but I just wanted to point out.
Really glad to see this post
Our first priority has to be to deal with the backbreaking defensive penalties that extend the opponent’s drives. Yesterday’s game could have been a hell of a lot less nerve-wracking if we didn’t keep handing the Ravens free yardage and first downs. A lot of it has to do with knowing the game situation – down and distance, primarily. I’m looking at Lewis’ two 4th-quarter penalties and thinking, “We could’ve had a stop right there.”
"There's an old saying - revenge is a dish best served immediately."
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